Off-Topic III: The Revengening!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Battery farming can NEVER be classed as ethical.

[Mr Mystery]

One where they're free range, and not pumped full of hormones.

Stress hormones affect the meat, making it a lower quality too. Biggest issue we face in today's society in the slightly bizarre notion that humanity is entitled to two chickens for £3....there's no need for it!

[Wolfshade]

Yes it can.

It follows the tehtics of consequentialism.

- - - Updated - - -

That is the ends justifies the means. The end is to produce as much chicken as possible at the lowest possible cost. Therefore any methods that enable that are just as a consequence of the outcome.

[Psychosplodge]

Wolfie's Money Saving Tip: Once made, mash potato can be frozen and stored indefinately. Just thaw out and microwave.

- - - Updated - - -



You feel much better after you have had a sausage in you...

No it can't, once made I eat it all...

Also lmao



I just prefer to have not taken an innocent piggy life for my pleasure.

http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/cute-piglet-ONN.jpg

He has boots!

If a pig had the chance he'd kill you and everyone you ever cared about.

You can see the murder in his eyes. Never get knocked unconscious in a pig pen, they'll eat you alive...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Wolfshade, that is f'ing bullsh!t, you knew exactly what I meant. Battery farming is a crime against nature, all it does it throw lives away so that the b@stard who goes to McDonalds with his bratty kids can eat Chicken f'ing Nuggets. How would you like it if I took your dogs and threw them in a factory farm for the Koreans?

[Psychosplodge]

You wouldn't battery farm your pet chickens...

[Wolfshade]

It was Mystery who mentioned ethical farming, I was just sugesting that one has to be very careful with what people mean by various words as consequentialism is a form of ethics.

My dogs are the wrong breed to be eaten, you are looking for chinese black dog. But then the situation really isn't the same, the dogs were born to be pets, not food. Lab mice are born to be lab mice. Farmed rabbits are bread to be food and are not the same as the domesticated rabbits that we sell as pets.

I know only two farmers, the one is a dairy farmer and so does not eat his cows as they are "milkers" the other is pig man who does eat his pigs, his pigs wouldn't have been reared if they weren't going to be ultimately slaughtered.

So you see how the situation is not the same since the purpose is different.

You could make the argument that wild deer is not born for venison so eating that owuld be wrong, but on a grander scheme without large predators they are prone to over populate areas grazing them to destruction, so their numbers need to be reduced. So in such circumstances it is of greater benefit to kill the deer, but then what to do with the carcass? Leave it to rot, or make venison? There are arguemnets on both sides.

I do agree though that battery farming is wrong and is not moral. But with "free range" and "organic" meat costing more society faces the issue, to eat less meat or pay more for it. Which unfortunately, consumerism wants more for less so spaces reduce and you end up with factory farm indoor rear cows for instance.

For what it is worth, I as a consequence eat less meat, though I do not have vegeterian days. But, people will still buy iceland mince mostly-beef.

[Psychosplodge]

http://i60.tinypic.com/2po43eb.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

Anyone any good at economics? Because I've got a question about the cost of meat and relativity and that.

So, Battery Farms produce cheap meat.

Free Range Farms produce more expensive meat.

Organic Farms produce expensive meat.

What would happen if we took away the Battery Farms? Would taking away the cheapest option open up the economy of scale to bring down the prices of the medium option, as they are more readily able to sell their goods?

Also, as touched on earlier, Britain needs to belt up and realise that meat every day is a priv, not a right. Hugh's Chicken Run opened my eyes more than a little, and I've got massive 'nuff respek for Mr Fearnley-Whittingstall.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

https://i.imgflip.com/anu3l.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/anu3l)via Imgflip Meme Maker (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

[Psychosplodge]

Dude, the biggest worry in my life is the health of my SO, after that its the stress of trying to climb onto the housing ladder, beyond that there's very little I have time to lose sleep over.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I was aiming that at Wolfshade.

[Psychosplodge]

No worries, thought it might have been a neutral neutral reply :)

[Wolfshade]

No.

It is quite complicated and there are many different things that one needs to take into account.

The cost of maintaining a herd is expensive, but there are economies of scale. So the more heads of cow you have the cheaper they become. But there is a hard limit on this, the amount space you have.

Post WW2 the demand for beef increased, also so did wages, so meat became more accessible so people wanted more.
The pressure to create more beef led to some people realising that if they were to feed them grains (for instance) they would need less grass for grazing so you could then for instance a grass field might have previously supported 30 cows, could now support 60. This economy made this the new normal, then someone realised that if you were to keep them in sheds you could give them spaces, but you didn't need to worry about bad weather and use "natural" lights to get more breeding cycles in as well.
Then people reasied you could mess about with their hormones and get more meat per cow and so on and so forth.

Ultimately, the most cost effective method of meat farming is battery as you minimise the space per animal. So going back to jsut grass fed is not practical at this levels of production.

If we reduced the amount of cattle then we could do that, unfortunately, the population size has swelled massively from 46 million to 59 million so the demand has increased and the space for farming has reduced.

The other issue that one has to consider with grass fed option. Grass fed cows produces significiantly more methane than grain fed, so if you had grass fed you massively increase green house gasses. Indeed some stats suggest that 14% of global greenhouse emissions are from agriculture.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I just don't understand how you can defend battery farming on a mere situational point of view.
Animals are born to be animals, they aren't born for a specific purpose, and quite frankly, laboratory experimentation on animals is inhumane and appalling.

- - - Updated - - -

Your attitude towards animals is disgusting Wolfshade.

[Wolfshade]

I have never defended battery farming. I have explained how it is a consequence of societies demand for more and cheaper meat. I have also never stated what my attitude is towards animals. You make many assumptions.

Animals born in domesticated settings are born for a reason. That is the reality of the situation.

I shall give you another example, a woman I know breeds pedigree miniature bull terriers. Now her dogs are pets and she does not do it on a commerical scale, rearing at most 1 litter every 7 years. With only having 1 breeding ***** and only breeding one litter.

That ***** only breeds because my friend wants it to breed, she selects the mate based on pedigree and ensuring that they are not too closely related.

Those puppies are not born because the dog wants to raise puppies, they are raised to be sold for a siginficant amount of money. That is the truth, her biotch does not mate randomly, those puppies are commodities to be sold.

Another situation, breeding programs in zoos. The zoo deliberately breeds rare creatures to populate other zoos and to re-intorudce them into the wild, they would not be able to bread otherwise.

Of course laboratory experimentation on animals is inhuman, they are using animals not humans. It is the very deffinition. I am not sure where I stand on animal experimentation. For cosmetic purproses it is wrong. But when it comes to other things I am not so sure. We must consider humans to be above animals, otherwise we would eat people, so if we are above them, then it is more morally just to experiment on animals than it is to do it on people. I have heard passionate arguments on both sides of the fence for this and I am unsure which is best. I suppose the steel test is this. If you are afflicted by an illness that would mean certain death would you take a cure that was only discovered and proven safe by animal experimentation? For me the answer would be yes. So I suppose I must be in favour of it.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You are actually just rattling off facts over why factory farming is economically better, ergo, defending it's existence. If more people actually just ate organically then there would be no need for vegetarianism. Cruelty to animals, on any level, in any setting, is evil and abhorrent. Tolerance of this is JUST as bad.

[Wolfshade]

So a history student explaining a certain Adolf H's rise to power therefore is defending it?

I find your logic quite baffeling.

If the world eat only organic food, we would need to seriously depopulate it. I mean signficant %s equating to many many million, and yet I am the monster...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

As you have stated, things breed, why do we need to keep them in a cage?

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Anyway, I'm going out. Enjoy your carcass.

[Mr Mystery]

We will. Meat tastes good, and as a species we're adapted for it. No need to go getting morally smug on either side of the fence.

In other news, I've now taken delivery of 'Vault of Horror' by Amicus Studios.

This now completes my collection of the Amicus Horror Anthology movies. HURRAH!

[Wolfshade]

We don't and I never said we should. But ho-hum that would interfere with your narrative wouldn't it.

Fun facts for you, if we want to organicly feed people, bearing in mind that we will have to sythesise of Nitrogen by the mega tonne. But we look at comparisons and they fall between 95% efficient down to 66% efficiency depending on the crop and location.

So we must covert more and more land to agriculture. So you then end up having to destroy ecosystems, like forests and jungles and give them over to organic culture. Destroying millions of acres of eco-ssytems killing off millions of creatures, mamals, plants and birds.

So you end up killing off upto a third of the world population and many millions of speices of plant and animals all in order to look after the well being of some relatively few heads of cattle or pig or what have you.

Of course the other option is to eat less meat but continue to farm both meat and vegetables non-organically with GM crops.

[Psychosplodge]

Also thinks how many breeds would be extinct as we wouldn't be farming them, and they'd then be considered pests.

I think none cosmetic animal testing is a necessary evil. Cosmetic testing is just cruel.
But you shouldn't eat people for the same reason you shouldn't eat any upper food chain omnivore/carnivore. You find toxins concentrated in the meat in closer to harmful levels than you would just eating the herbivores, I think the common example is radioactivity levels in dolphins or something.

[Wolfshade]

hehehe: http://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/signs-you-were-a-brummie-teenage-goth-ul08

worryingly accurate

[eldargal]

I'm less interested in organic than I am in free range. Giving animals the amount of space they need to enjoy a quality of life that is positive is important. Against pumping them full of unnecessary chemicals too but sometimes it is necessary to maintain the health of the herd. Organic farming I think is fine at a local and domestic levle but the fact is we need industrial farming to feed our population and supplementing it with organic is good but one cant replace the other. We grow most of what we eat ourselves but we have the space, tiem and money to do so and mot people don't. I love the idea of communal gardens and people using window sills, balconies, roofs and even inside pots to grow vegetables to supplement their diet though.

[Psychosplodge]

Did you often pretend to be Nancy?

[Mr Mystery]

I'm less interested in organic than I am in free range. Giving animals the amount of space they need to enjoy a quality of life that is positive is important. Against pumping them full of unnecessary chemicals too but sometimes it is necessary to maintain the health of the herd. Organic farming I think is fine at a local and domestic levle but the fact is we need industrial farming to feed our population and supplementing it with organic is good but one cant replace the other. We grow most of what we eat ourselves but we have the space, tiem and money to do so and mot people don't. I love the idea of communal gardens and people using window sills, balconies, roofs and even inside pots to grow vegetables to supplement their diet though.

Yup.

I'd love to find a landshare type thing, like a communal small holding. The investors club together to buy and raise the animals, and get a share of the spoils. Lovely!

Poking about....seems there's more than a few Allotments knocking about my town....

Would be rude not to! Shall grow spuds and onions and leeks and carrots and STUFF.

[eldargal]

also when it comes to stuff like wheat and staple grains I don't really give a damn about organic, I've seen taste tests done where most peopel can't tell the damned difference. Much more in favour of crop diversity and different varieties of vegetable than strict organic.

[Wolfshade]

Don't bother doing anything in the garden until october ish.

It is too late now.

I grow my own usually, my potatoes have really come on over the last 2 weeks shooting up to a couple of feet from just a few inches, though i don't know when they went in so harvesting may change.

I have the left side of my garden dedicated to soft fruits, and the right to root vegetables. plans are afoot for more

[Mr Mystery]

Still need to apply, and then buy gardening tools, so October actually works out about nice!

[eldargal]

I read something online about growing potatoes in a big rubbish bag full of soil mix to save garden space once, wish I could find that. Idea being it lets people with no or very limited garden space grow a staple starch.

[Wolfshade]

Do not underestimate the amount of time and effort that you need to put into an allotment.

Other allotmenters will generally be very useful and handy with advice.

The tools you will need:

Spade
Fork
Hoe (dutch)
Watering Can
String
Bamboo Canes

If they have a communal compost heap that is very useful, otherwise you might want to get your own small one on your plot.

[Mr Mystery]

Yep. Spuds are notoriously unfussy growers. There's many ways and means you can get a higher yield, but generally speaking they'll grow with minimum hassle.

One of the best things? Leave a few in the soil, and boom, another crop out of them!

I'd quite like to grow enough that I can give my friends random veg boxes!

As for compost - none of them are really walking distance from my flat, so would be limited to organic matter from the allotment itself.

Quite happy to put the work in. Better exercise than going down the gym, and I get tastynumnums out of it too. And....one is even allowed to keep chickens, if one wanted. Which one doesn't. Sounds like too much hassle.

[Wolfshade]

I read something online about growing potatoes in a big rubbish bag full of soil mix to save garden space once, wish I could find that. Idea being it lets people with no or very limited garden space grow a staple starch.

I've grown potatos in sacks before. It is brilliant way to do it for two reasons.
1: You need much less space per plant as you can "earth up" the potato in the sack without having to balance a pyramid of soil around the plant
2: Harvesting is simplisity itself. I've had many a runaway potato plants pop up where I didn't want them as I failed to lift one or two.

The down side is that you don't get the benefit to the soil if you do that.

[Psychosplodge]

Uncommon dragon hordes Part two (http://syrynvalentyne.tumblr.com/post/93002400857/iguanamouth-so-the-first-four-hoards-were-so)

[Mr Mystery]

Companion planting eh? Sounds like a low maintenance clever trick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_planting).

And I do like clever tricks. Especially those that involve infuriating insects to the point where they just nick off somewhere else!

Right. Pull finger out, apply for allotment!

Application pending. Seems they're around £40 a year, plus a one off £10 for the padlock key for to let you in.

Well excited about this!!

[Psychosplodge]

Oh gods the feels, poor ickle Eevee (http://van-tallis.tumblr.com/post/92958345779/genuine-gross-sobbing-o)...

Also has anyone ever played "Oubliettes & Ogres"?

[Wolfshade]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76569000/jpg/_76569806_comiccon1_624.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

Yep.

Still expecting it to be utterly, utterly awful.

Bat Affleck? WW reduced to a bit part? Same guy that did the frankly laughable Man of Steel?

[Kirsten]

Margarine really is an abomination. Stop using it unlss yo literally can't afford butter.

according to QI you can't get margarine in Britain any more anyway


I don't have anything against vegetables, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one.

lol


Cheating the mash at the moment. I don't get through bags of spuds quick enough.

I find the same, it is a pain, I am really partial to mash. cooking for one is so much more expensive per person than cooking for more, so many fresh foods only come in bulk and go off before I can use them.


You are actually just rattling off facts over why factory farming is economically better, ergo, defending it's existence. If more people actually just ate organically then there would be no need for vegetarianism. Cruelty to animals, on any level, in any setting, is evil and abhorrent. Tolerance of this is JUST as bad.

actually most organic farming is a nonsense, it doesn't actually mean anything, and can lead to animals/crops being far less healthy because they are not properly cared for. many of the products prohibited in organic farming are actually perfectly normal chemicals, but people go 'omg chemicals' as though everything in the world isn't some sort of chemical or another. free range is really the only criteria to worry about, organic is just ripping you off.

also everything Wolfie is saying about farming methods and reasoning is entirely true.

[Wildeybeast]

Why has Wolfie not been pulled up on referencing a 'science' article in the Daily Hatemail?

[Kirsten]

that's true. bad Wolfie. :p

[Wolfshade]

Because I consider the Daily Mail to be left wing...

Also woo! Kirsten agrees with me (must be doing something wrong)

[Kirsten]

you sometimes say sensible things, don't put yourself down :p

[Psychosplodge]

http://i59.tinypic.com/x3tobt.gif

[Wolfshade]

Deadpool!

[Psychosplodge]

in character deadpools are so funny

[Psychosplodge]

While I feel sorry for people that bought tickets, I couldn't resist

https://38.media.tumblr.com/953bfb7b3795ec0919aaebfc5d960189/tumblr_n9hqngCwXx1rby7x1o1_500.jpg (http://randomyrandomthings.tumblr.com/post/93239212695)

[Mr Mystery]

Looks suspiciously like a namby-pamby circle pit to me.....damn you US Punk scene!

[Psychosplodge]

You noticed the band right?

[Mr Mystery]

Yep.

But then you're talking to someone who will quite happily pogo all night to.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F3Uhrj9YVI

[Psychosplodge]

lols

[Mr Mystery]

Parents fault! First single they ever bought me. B-side was Fisticuffs in Frederick Street - a song about a violent Nightclub called Augustus Gloop, and why you should avoid it.

12 years later, I became a punk/goth/weirdo. They sowed that seed! Only themselves to blame!

Managed to see Toy Dolls live in London a few years back, supported by TV Smith out the adverts. Absolutely mental gig!

And in other news - viewing the available allotment on Sunday. Hurrah!

Also consider keeping chickens on the allotment, as there is the potential to take up two plots. One for the veg, one for the chooks. Already beginning research into appropriate care of the chickens, and coops. Found a decent look, sturdy coop for about £300.

Chickens will be Battery Rescue hens. Give them somewhere nice to live out their remaining days.

[Kirsten]

chickens are easy to look after.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. Let them out and feed in the morning, checking water, lock them up at night. Easy!

Really liking the idea of fresh eggs more or less on tap. Ditto the veg.

And in other news, I'm currently doing an 'at your desk' Excel Intermediate Course. Excel it seems is in fact dead easy to use. Shame about the training software!

[Psychosplodge]

I'm so glad I didn't get a couple of day tickets for AltFest. Another source has confirmed its cancellation on grounds of funding, and that the organisers are trying to put the announcement off. That's two events that have gone under this year that I almost bought tickets for and didn't...

[Mr Mystery]

Then stop being a jinx!

Circus of Horrors confirmed it on FB as well. Apparently, nobody was paying anyone!

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah that's the latest one I'd just seen.

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but I think if the bloke from beholder hadn't let the cat out the bag the punters would still be in the dark.

Also you're the jinx :D

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not a jinx, you're the jinx. You jinx.

I'm a spawny get. Ask all my friends, and they'll tell you. And probably call me other names too, because we loves each other in a platonic way.

[Psychosplodge]

spawny git? Just how many offspring do you have?

[Mr Mystery]

None.

I birth sheer, jammy luck instead.

[eldargal]

NSFW (no nudity or anything like that):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x4x6zhuuo0

[Psychosplodge]

seen the gif I lol'd, but the last time I saw a virgin do that she swallowed :confused:

[eldargal]

https://40.media.tumblr.com/f71ca1c4cde4784c474e227d00a2f50d/tumblr_n6yqf3FtNo1qzcv7no2_500.jpg

[Gotthammer]

Not the hero we need.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/b7ac8c9312c47c78e2134414cef5ac54/tumblr_mzi0esbrmA1r33722o1_1280.jpg

But the hero we deserve.

[eldargal]

Where are all the good men gone and where are all the gods.
Where's the streetwise Hercules to jack off on the cops.

[Gotthammer]

Omg :D

[eldargal]

DJ Totes is renowned for her improv skills.:rolleyes:

[Gotthammer]

Word :cool:

[40kGamer]

Not the hero we need.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/b7ac8c9312c47c78e2134414cef5ac54/tumblr_mzi0esbrmA1r33722o1_1280.jpg

But the hero we deserve.

Gotthammer.... some things were not meant to be shared! :p

[Kirsten]

some things were not meant to be shared! :p

that is what the police kept telling him...

*drumroll*

[40kGamer]

that is what the police kept telling him...

*drumroll*

Oh you're bad! :D

[Kirsten]

too hot to shut the window, but two wasps keep flying in and buzzing about. what is really annoying is that they keep humming 'Danger Zone' and flying really close past my face trying to make me spill my coffee.

[40kGamer]

Opposite of hot where I'm setting... can't adjust the air flow to my office so while it's a lovely 80 F outside today my workspace is clocking in at about 62 F. After a while I can't feel my fingers anymore. Plus whoever built this structure rightly feared office workers diving to their death and none of the windows open at all! If you could send the wasps this way I could flash freeze them for scientific study. ;)

[Kirsten]

ok, I told them but they were flying upside down taking selfies of one another, I don't think they were paying attention.

[40kGamer]

Ah selfies, the bane of modern existence. If attention spans get any shorter, people won't even finish their

[Tyrendian]

what are you talking ab

[40kGamer]

what are you talking ab

:)

[Mr Mystery]

Oh look, a bee.

[Gotthammer]

Ah selfies, the bane of modern existence. If attention spans get any shorter, people won't even finish their

https://36.media.tumblr.com/790188212e11e5d96b24b5e99cb3043c/tumblr_mwnbqoLyaU1qayy2qo1_500.jpg

People should never apologize for loving themselves.

[Psychosplodge]

People should never apologize for loving themselves.

Possibly, but there's a time and place... ;)

[Gotthammer]

That's why you take meth so you can fight off the cops when they try and stop you.

[Psychosplodge]

So on this glorious Yorkshire day it's been pointed out that If we were a country we would have finished sixth at the Olympics, and that Sheffield Hallam University would currently be fourteenth in the commonwealth games by itself.

[Wolfshade]

Ah but would you? Would you have had the funds to build all the infrastrucutre and maintain it? Indeed using the Barnett-Formula you end up showing Yorkshire currently spend 115% per capita what they generate.

Though the rest of England would thank you for making Doncaster no longer part of England

[Psychosplodge]

lmao Doncaster is a ****hole but not as bad as what Das Mail painted, don't forget they'll then be linking its condition to a lack of action by red ed once the election starts.

Is that the formula that gets Scotland free tuition fees and further education?

[Wolfshade]

I've been to Doncaster twice and I survived, maybe that needs a t-shirt. The one time a guy did try to start on me so I *may* have broken his nose.

It is *supposed* to indiciate funding by region by head so that areas get the same investment. It is how London gets a "fair" amount of transport cash:

http://leftfootforward.org/images/2013/12/IPPR-north-south-graph.png

[Psychosplodge]

Used to spend two hours on buses each way to skating on a saturday, that does indeed sound like donny.
clearly thats a fair division of funds.

[Wolfshade]

There is some sense to it. After all, if you have a large population living very close to each other and places of work it does make sense that people use public transport because you can have a lot of it at very little cost. So whereas london buses may have an average occupancy of like 86% and come every 4 minutes, imagine the same bus frequency in Hope or any other small village most of the busses would be empty.

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah but that's not what the graph shows, lets face it as long as it turns up i'd think one an hour to hope would be plenty.

[Wolfshade]

Well even looking at that one bus route that would account for 12x the cost so it spins up. Plus londers are more accomodating of being treated like cattle in their various peasent wagons.

But yeah it shows a too familiar too london centric approach.

[eldargal]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/ba73549bfd44d5e1cea92181727376cb/tumblr_n91vm41mv21rboqfio1_500.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

https://36.media.tumblr.com/790188212e11e5d96b24b5e99cb3043c/tumblr_mwnbqoLyaU1qayy2qo1_500.jpg

People should never apologize for loving themselves.

No. But they should stop short of narcissism. There's folk out there who only ever post selfies of themselves, because reasons.

Typically, they're all dolled up, looking their absolute best, and coming up with self depreciating stuff, angling for further compliments.

No issue when it's a once in the while 'I need an ego boost' type thing. We all need that from time to time. But every post? Multiple times a day? That's plenty, and you've taken it too far.

[Psychosplodge]

I hope this is fake

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10526184_753820334682477_2748542431946107389_n.jpg ?oh=468d55e56a530b2fcbf34922194e3bfb&oe=5456A07E

[Gotthammer]

That's plenty, and you've taken it too far.

Why? How does it hurt you?

[Mr Mystery]

Oh it doesn't, but I'm not one for fawning and repeated attention seeking.

But I don't say anything on the photos, because you never know if it's a genuine need (like body dysmorphia etc), or what that person is going through. Not worth the damage, however inadvertant.

Just gets on my pip. Spesh when it's all duck face.

[Wolfshade]

http://www.thatcutesite.com/uploads/2010/01/duck_upclose.jpg

[Wildeybeast]

So on this glorious Yorkshire day it's been pointed out that If we were a country we would have finished sixth at the Olympics, and that Sheffield Hallam University would currently be fourteenth in the commonwealth games by itself.

What do you want, a medal?

[Mr Mystery]

Made out of Yorkshire pudding. Yes. Lovely.

So lovely, I'm going to have Toad in the Hole tonight. Yes. Lovely.

[Wolfshade]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04brgv1

Prom 13: CBBC Prom

complete with a Real slim shade - Parody, I'm the real veloceraptor. 19:26

[Mr Mystery]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04brgv1

Prom 13: CBBC Prom

complete with a Real slim shade - Parody, I'm the real veloceraptor. 19:26

And this is why I love the BBC. They have their flaws and foibles, but they do churn out top notch stuff for people of all ages.

[Psychosplodge]

What do you want, a medal?

I think we already have some :p

[Mr Mystery]

I think we already have some :p

Yeah, but you traded them for Ferrets.

[Psychosplodge]

Shhhhh the ferret black marketeers will hear you.

[Wolfshade]

compare the ferret .com

[Mr Mystery]

Shhhhh the ferret black marketeers will hear you.

And they're all Lancastrian.....they'll Ecky Thump you.

[Darren Richardson]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/ba73549bfd44d5e1cea92181727376cb/tumblr_n91vm41mv21rboqfio1_500.jpg

and that is why the Rock rocks!

[Gotthammer]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/42a6535a3fb701a97186140a61d0eaa0/tumblr_n98g4r7pC01qfu74qo1_500.png

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[Wolfshade]

So I went to one of England's best castles today Warwick Castle, home to the kingmaker. The last time I went was some sixteen years ago. I really had quite mixed reactions about it.

Yes, I very much enjoyed seeing the bird of prey exhibition, the trubechet firing, the jousting and the mediaeval combat, but I didn't get any history. and to go to the dugdeon was another £9 on top of the already steep entry price £24.

Then there was more ti in pay only access to the "merlin" tower.

But what I didn't get was the history, the origins as a motte and bailey fort, the barons war, the war of the roses and finally the civil war. None of that. I was more a medieval land, all artificial and no depth of substance.

Then the state rooms were closed for a wedding. This national treasure is now more amusement park than heritage, and I understand that it needs to be entertaining, but you used to be able to tour the dugeons free of charge, now you have to pay to go in.

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Though watching the jousting I want to collect a brettonian army...

[Mr Mystery]

I am Groot.

Also, went to see that allotment this morning. And it will be mine. Oh yes. It will be mine!

On a gently sloping hill, loads of exposure to sunlight (other people grow Chillies and Peaches!). Plot hasn't been cultivated for years, so the soil should be in good nick. Going to take a lot of work to get it going but there's plenty of time for that. Helps that there's a communal rotivator on site, so that'll make thing a lot lot easier.

Shall contact the Council tomorrow, and get the paperwork done and dusted. Then it's mine!

[Darren Richardson]

I am Groot.

Did you see Howard the Duck?

[Mr Mystery]

Nah. Got tickets to a press screening, and they didn't show the typical 'end of credits' bit.

But I've been told of it!

Also - Cap 2 shall be mine in but two weeks!

[daboarder]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions?CMP=soc_567

[Mr Mystery]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions?CMP=soc_567

Nothing like a bunch of privileged millionaires telling everyone else to tighten their belts eh?

[Wolfshade]

Nothing like a bunch of privileged millionaires telling everyone else to tighten their belts eh?

People who work at Job Centres are millionaires?! How much do they pay them?

[Mr Mystery]

DWP, and Ian '£59 Breakfast' Duncan Smith setting down the laws.

Because you know, once you're a millionaire yourself, it's obvious that anyone not a millionaire is simply a workshy layabout there to be starved to death if you so wish.

Still. Not long now. Really don't think we'll see the Tories in again after the next election.

[Wolfshade]

The choice of whether someone is working hard enough to get a job is done by those in the local branch of the labour exchange, I doubt any of them are millionaires.

[Mr Mystery]

All following orders from DWP.

[Wolfshade]

The guidelines are laid out by the DWP but it is up to the local workers to evaluate each case on a case by case basis to determine if it is appropriate or if there are mitigating factors, i.e. health reasons, disability, etc. that would make them excempt for any puniative action.

I think that it is reasonable that those who do not look actively enough to suffer from punitaive action. But, as always when it comes to populations a one rule doesn't fit that's how come you need local people to do determine if there are any exceptional circumstances.

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Again, those local DWP workers aren't millionaires.

[Wildeybeast]

DWP, and Ian '£59 Breakfast' Duncan Smith setting down the laws.

Because you know, once you're a millionaire yourself, it's obvious that anyone not a millionaire is simply a workshy layabout there to be starved to death if you so wish.

Still. Not long now. Really don't think we'll see the Tories in again after the next election.

Yep. I'm obviously biased, but it really cheesed me off during the recent public sector strikes, that they kept referring to them harming the 'hard working people who are getting Britain back on track'. Because people who choose to take a single day of strike action because they are struggling to pay their mortgage thanks real terms wage cuts and have serious concerns about the standard of service and in some cases safety, of various public sectors, are not hard working people contributing to fixing the economy.

[Wolfshade]

Maybe I am cynical, but I am not sure how striking and holding parent's to ransom is hard working.

Public sector wages have stagnated, well guess what so have private sector.

Why should public sector workers get pay rises thus costing the majority of the labour force more money in tax liability, when they themselves have not recieved pay rises?

Or is it a case that the public sector just wants to screw the private sector even more?

[daboarder]

Maybe I am cynical, but I am not sure how striking and holding parent's to ransom is hard working.

Public sector wages have stagnated, well guess what so have private sector.

Why should public sector workers get pay rises thus costing the majority of the labour force more money in tax liability, when they themselves have not recieved pay rises?

Or is it a case that the public sector just wants to screw the private sector even more?

More likely its the private sectors limited interests screwing anyone not in the upper class, and then lobbying so that it affects the public sector

[Wildeybeast]

The clear implication from the government was that those public sector workers who went on strike are work shy layabouts who clearly make no contribution at all to the economy or wider society the rest of the time. It is this sort of lazy and insulting stereotyping/propaganda which I took offence at.

Whilst I have no intention of getting into a dispute about this issue with you, I would like to point out that I made no mention of pay rises, nor has the NUT campaign ever been about that. Had our pension contributions not been increased, it would have not cost the taxpayer (which includes public sectors workers) any more money and would have offset cost of living increases.

[Mr Mystery]

Maybe I am cynical, but I am not sure how striking and holding parent's to ransom is hard working.

Public sector wages have stagnated, well guess what so have private sector.

Why should public sector workers get pay rises thus costing the majority of the labour force more money in tax liability, when they themselves have not recieved pay rises?

Or is it a case that the public sector just wants to screw the private sector even more?

All wages haven't so much stagnated, as been artificially suppressed. They haven't kept up with inflation for decades - quite possibly longer than my lifetime (34 years, born May 1980).

[Wolfshade]

The pay suppression is something that no government of any flavour has dealt with.

We've spoken how the the whole labour force carries the tax burden of public sector workers before, as opposed to private sector pensions which are paid for by the employer and employee.

[daboarder]

no government has addressed this no, because the "left" governments merely hold ground or compromise, they dont make progress anymore. and then when the right governments get in they make huge leaps to the right that aren't redressed when they inevitably get booted out again

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Benefits have kept pace with the cost of living. Wages haven't. That's why many people find themselves better off on benefits than in work. And frankly that's insane, but needs a two ended approach. Start cutting back benefits, whilst raising the minimum wage to something one can realistically live off of.

Would I like to see fewer benefits paid out? Naturally yes I would. But when someone is only claiming a single one, like Job Seekers (which pays naff all anyway, and certainly nowhere near enough for job hunting outside of your immediate vicinity) is it really worth starving them over?

ATOS in particular have been utterly shameful throughout the restructuring. And IDS has just thrown good money after bad with his bizarre insistence that Universal Credit, depsite all evidence and experience to the contrary, is going to work.

[Wolfshade]

Changing the minimum wage isn't as simple as that as it causes unintended consequeces that we have been through be I will summarise.

1) Inflation increases
2) Increased unemployment
3) Disproptionally detrimental to manufacturing.

But as a general rule of thumb I agree that those out of work should have a lower standard of living than those that do work.

It is really an emotive topic, but it is quite a small amount of money, certainly it is a fraction to what the nation pays out in pensions approximately 20p in ever £1 spent.

There is a problem with the benefit system. Each sucessive government would see that there is a niche of people that weren't be addressed by the benefit so it would be tacked on. Until it became a huge unweildy behemoth that something needed to be done to make it more streamlined and more efficient, now any restructuring would be painful and most over run. But do you risk making something simpler in the long terms for a little short term hurt or do you must not bother and continue adding things on here and there until you have a beast that is nigh-on impenetrable.

But there are good and bad things. I think it was good that people had housing benefit paid to them and they then paid that in rent, it gives them control over their finances, but instead swathes didn't spend it on rent and were surprised to be evicted.

[Mr Mystery]

And as ever, the post-war Generation who pulled the ladder up after them are making damned sure their pensions are as rosey as can be, and sod everyone else. Everything else can be plundered, privatised, cut back, done away with - unless it directly affects that generation.

Hence the lack of house building. Why, that would affect the value of their own property. You know, the one they bought for a more than reasonable price back in the 70's. The ones that have skyrocketed in value to the point where even I start earning £60,000 a year I won't be able to afford to buy a family home. Can't have any value being knocked off that now can we? Oh no.

[Wolfshade]

Being on the property ladder, I don't see the problem ;)

But no, it is silly.

Trouble is the grey vote is most important, because they vote. Young people see things are stacked against tehm so don't vote out of apathy so the parties go and follow those most likely to vote.

The only real exception is LibDems who unfortunately, have alienated their student base.

[Mr Mystery]

Haven't they just. Such a disappointment.

Granted, being the minority stake in a coalition limits your clout somewhat, but there was no need for them to grab their ankles quite so badly. Drunk on power, and they might never recover as a party, whether or not they ditch Clegg.

And we're looking at the same situation with Labour as we did the Tories last time around - they're likely to get in, not because they have the credible alternative, but because the incumbent's are desparately unpopular.

Though having said that, I think it's worth having the Tories in for one more run - simply because they're promising a referendum on EU membership. One way or the other, such a referendum would blow UKIP out of the political water. Vote for in, they will have to STFU as the public has spoken. Vote for out? What purpose do the swivel eyed lunatics serve now? Sadly, UKIP are one of the reasons Cameron is likely out next election. They're primarily eroding the Tory voter base at a time when they need it as shored up as possible.

[Wolfshade]

It is strange, I don't think Labour can win with Milliband, or at least this Milliband, I know it is shallow but he does not look prime-ministerial. He looks like Wallace.

David Milliband looks and sounds much more statesmanly.

Then you have Ed Balls whose predictions on the worsening economy are just wrong so he has no credibility with that.

it is a difficult one, throuhgout histoy any part that has implemented a raft of cuts, gone through recessions and generally do unpopular things are massively unpopular and yet we do not see it in the polls.

I think UKIP are the biggest threat to the British economy. Yes, I would like to see the highest law of the land being in the UK and for the UK to chose which laws to adopt or not and not haev them imposed. But I do not want to leave teh economic market. Europe is our biggest trade partner and the UK manuacturing has big enough issues with expesnive labour before worrying about the effect of import taxes would be.

But this is part of the truth that UKIP are hopefully trying to make people unaware of and cite the 8.7 billion bulgarians who want to come in and steal our women, sorry job.

Fear and ignprance are their allies and unfortunately, they evoke a strong emotional reaction and so they get people whipped up and ready to vote for the idoicy.

Having said all that, I am in favour of UKIPs plan to make the circle line circluar again...

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The other issue are the "I vote this way because I always do". I know an old man very well, he is an avid labour man through and through, he is a member and was in the unions back in the day. He is also reasonably intelligent. He has moved through his career from being a tradtional labour voter to being a tradtional tory voter, yet he has not switched red for blue. Despite him being actively opposed to some Labour policies and hating Milliband, he will still drive down and vote for the labour guy.

And this is what we are stuck with generations of people who believe we are in a 1950s Britian, where Labour are left, Tories are right and the LibDems are a demonstration vote. In reality, Labour and Conservative are much closer to the centre and each other than the "traditional core vote" would like to observe.

[Mr Mystery]

I really do loathe UKIP. It's like the Daily Mail has somehow made flesh it's entirely dreamt up Britain

And unfortunately they've hit their stride at just the wrong time for the Tories. They're taking away the more unbalanced Tory base (hurrah!), at the same time the Tories are alienting their less committed voters, let alone floating voters.

Still. At least Mr Gove is being kept out of trouble. Nasty little toad that he is.

Other trouble? I personally have done fairly well out of the current Goverment, which is probably the first time that's ever happened. Higher tax threshold has seen a few extra quid in my pocket, which is nice, but most of it has been off my own back (better and better jobs, career well under way etc). Yet I can also look back, and know as well as I'm doing right now it can all too easily be lost, and the safety mat that was once there has been swapped for a bed of nails. And that genuinely scares me.

One concept about housing - why are council houses 'yours for life'. Surely that discourages people trying to develop themselves and their careers? After all, whether or not you're receiving housing benefit, council and housing assosciation houses are dead cheap. Like, fraction of private rental cheap. So stick a review cap on it. Say something like 5 years - you can achieve a lot in 5 years. Then if like me you've turned yourself around and now more than capable of standing on your own two feet, off into the private market you go. If not, or you're genuinely incapable of work (disability etc) you get another 5 years in it.

Welfare should be providing a safety net, not a cost bolthole.

[eldargal]

Actually recent experiences in several US cities and states have found raising the minimum wage boosts employment and productivity along with many other positive flow on effects, rather than the previously accepted wisdom that it hurts jobs.

[Wolfshade]

Since I have been in work I have been better off with each sucessive government. In terms of pure tax purposes, the increased personal tax allowance has out weighed any other costs that I have incurred, rises in fuel duty, VAT and alchol duty.

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Actually recent experiences in several US cities and states have found raising the minimum wage boosts employment and productivity along with many other positive flow on effects, rather than the previously accepted wisdom that it hurts jobs.


The key takeaways from the CBO report: Gradually raising the federal minimum wage to $10.10 from $7.25 would boost the incomes of most low-wage workers and lift 900,000 out of poverty. But it could also result in the loss of 500,000 jobs.

I am sure those 0.5 million will enjoy there new found unemployement and that additional spending power they enjoy...

[Mr Mystery]

Minimum Wage should be raised by increments I agree, as you can't really expect any business to suddenly go from say £3.50 an hour to £7.00 an hour. Many would collapse under that weight.

Just needs to stay ahead of inflation. And whilst raising that, either make smaller cuts to benefit amounts, or freeze them. Eventually you'll pass the equilibrium point (where you're no better off either way), and be better off in work. Lovely for all involved.

Also - FFS, free childcare. Cost of it is outrageous, and keeps many parents who are more than willing to work at home. Make childcare free, get a bit of early edumacation into the sprogs (so reading etc becomes normal before they know what normal is!) and everyone in society wins.

[eldargal]

Yes some big report or other was contradicted by the actual experiences of several places in the US. Apparently the authors were very cranky.

[Mr Mystery]

One thing is for sure - 'trickle down' economics was a load of bunkum from the outset.

And seriously, just how much money do the super rich want to acquire? I get that it's nice being filthy stinking rich, who wouldn't like that. But when you're sat on billions upon billions of dollars - what's the point? What more can you buy that you couldn't last year? What good is that money being held onto?

[Wolfshade]

First of all we need to understand that the US is not the UK and the economies are different.

After all their waiting staff still needing tips to surivie and the american minimum wage hasn't moved in 5 years and is significantly lower than the UK one.

The 13 states, with faster growth rates that are "owing to increase minimum wages" is only 0.2% quicker, not exactly ground breaking

Though compare that to the state with teh highest growth rate, North Dakota, it has had no minimum wage increase.

So i think it is far too early to determine the overall net effect.

[eldargal]

One thing is for sure - 'trickle down' economics was a load of bunkum from the outset.

And seriously, just how much money do the super rich want to acquire? I get that it's nice being filthy stinking rich, who wouldn't like that. But when you're sat on billions upon billions of dollars - what's the point? What more can you buy that you couldn't last year? What good is that money being held onto?
Yup, the flow on effects from the US were much more convincing. Workers had more money, they were spending more on all the things, other businesses benefited, offsetting their own increased costs and increasing profit, often necessitating more workers being employed. It used to be the basis of capitalism actually, you pay the highest wages your business could justify, not try and squeeze them to the lowest possible.

[Mr Mystery]

Looking at the other side of that - have states that upped the minimum wage all in stronger than average growth? Or is it just some?

I don't know, as I don't know where you guy are getting your figures from!

And I do agree - UK is different. Our minimum wage is getting there, slowly but surely. Worst thing we could do would be to follow what some of UKIP want and scrap it. That serves absolutely not purpose!

[Wolfshade]

My figures are based on the average of the 13 states vs the remaining 33?

I think that it is too early adn too simplistic to say X or Y.

As the North Dakota outlier shows is that if you have a strong economy you increase growth rates.

It is a bit like including London figures in UK figures. London never actually hit rescession like the rest of the country did and the growth rates are always higher.

here are teh figures, it is hardly convincing, given the lowest rate also raised it's minum wage

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1913660/original.jpg

[eldargal]

I'm not sure, I was reading about it a little while ago but I didn't save the article. I'm not saying we should arbitrarily raise the minimum wage here or anything, I'm just saying that the widespread belief it increases unemployment doesn't seem to mesh with the actual evidence. Evidence to the contrary from what I've seen tends to be predictions rather than empirical and from sources that benefit by keeping wages low so I'm sceptical.

[Wolfshade]

But I do agree with EG on teh point "It used to be the basis of capitalism actually, you pay the highest wages your business could justify, not try and squeeze them to the lowest possible".

[eldargal]

Yup. Everyone pays their workers decent wages, those workers get more to spend, consumer spending increases, business income goes up. Sustainable and ethical. The current model relies on finding cheaper and cheaper labour to the point a strong argument can be made that te global economy is underpinned by slave labour again.

[Mr Mystery]

Take where I used to work.

High pressure, fairly technical work - paid a pittance by industry standards. Training regime was good though - easily one of the best in the industry so hurrah for that.

Trouble is, because they paid so little, they struggled to retain competent staff. What you'd typically see was people signing up, taking advantage of the excellent level of training, get 12-18 months experience under their belt, and then nick off. This left a hardcore of goons left. People either unwilling, unable or both to get the job done. Hole gets deeper, as more and more technical stuff backs up. People join, gain experience quicker due to the workload, leave sooner.

Place is practically in meltdown, all because of a conscious decision to offer rock bottom wages. Where is the sense in that?

Take the flipside where I find myself now. Decent career, good conditions, and paid to the point where it's hard to find another job offering the same combination and job security. Net result? I'm here for the long run, not because I feel trapped, but because I've got a good fist of things, and am content with the treatment I receive in return for my work!

[eldargal]

Yup, I know of a lot of similar experiences too. A clothing company I love ended up producing their stuff in India not to cut costs because not a single factory in the UK could meet the quality standard they wanted at any price because the industry runs on charging high prices but paying low wages and as a result the workers they get are those that can't find any other work and are not skilled textile workers. so they pay the skilled Indian (women) a substantial wage by local standards 9ethical) and produce high quality goods for a discerning world wide market. Which could be being made here and employing people but no...

[Wolfshade]

Well yes, I celebrate 5 years of permanent contract later this year just for that reason. unfortuantely, I have puished myself into a very secure niche with 0 opporuntites elsewher :(

I know one area that I have dealing with their operation staff has 100% turn over and it is that which causes all kinds of difficultes. While they are paid the same as everyone else who works doing that job in the country on site are firms which do a similiar job but pay a london allowance and so they will leave the lower paid for the higher once they have the experiance and trainging.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed.

Outsourced jobs are not necessarily unethical. They might not be paid well by our standards, but for many in their neck of the world it's a decent wage indeed. Suppliers however need to take full responsibility for the conditions of the workers producing for them. If the sweatshops illegally employing children etc aren't used, they'll shut down. No point being all 'oh we didn't know! How could we know!' once it's out there. Be proactive.

In short? Low wages damage the economy. Makes a life on benefits more appealing. Keeps all the money in the pockets of the already well off. Limits the spending of the general populace. Overall, reduces taxes raised, putting further strain on the state.

Contrary to popular belief, it's a hardcore minority of benefit claimants who never want to work. Give those who it a decent shot at life.

[DWest]

Though compare that to the state with teh highest growth rate, North Dakota, it has had no minimum wage increase.

So i think it is far too early to determine the overall net effect.
This is actually a bit of a red herring; North Dakota is currently experiencing a huge boom in shale gas extraction, and their growth is being fueled entirely by the construction of well and housing for the workers moving in to the area, which are one-time purchases.

[40kGamer]

Trickle down economics is a bad joke started by the wealthy and the US is to the point where "ethics" should not be used in the same sentence as "politics and/or business". Maybe this is the endgame of Capitalism... a return to the economic structure of the middle ages.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh we're not at all far from Feudalism when the majority of working age adults rent their property.

Only trouble is, those at the top have shirked off the responsbilities of the olden day Nobles (like keeping the land safe and secure etc).

Saddest thing? It's the post-war generation dismantling the very system their parents set up and fought for. It's pathetic.

[eldargal]

Yup people don't realise that Feudalism was based on reciprocal benefits and a noble with more peasants had more productivity through a larger workforce. You treat them like poop and they left for the nearest friendlier noble and boosted their productivity instead. You looked after the peasants, you prospered.

I do tihnk capitalism is fundamentally the best economic system developed to date because it produced unprecedented growth, the trouble is the way it implemented. It NEEDS effective and efficient regulation, not to stifle growth but to prevent greed overpowering everything else.

Edit: Also there are issues related to forcing capitalism on non-Western countries in the name of development which ultimately ends up making us lots of money and keeping them impoverished because their guvmint doesn't have the experience or institutional rigor to stand up to big business. Hell we struggle to do that and we expect some poor developing nation to do it? Ridiculous. But its ****ing up a lot of poorer countries.

[40kGamer]

Oh we're not at all far from Feudalism when the majority of working age adults rent their property.

Only trouble is, those at the top have shirked off the responsbilities of the olden day Nobles (like keeping the land safe and secure etc).

Saddest thing? It's the post-war generation dismantling the very system their parents set up and fought for. It's pathetic.


The most pervasive attitude in the US is "if I have mine, screw you!" True for healthcare, pensions, wages and on and on.... Mass selfishness and apathy is why the privileged few get away with murder. So frustrating.

[Wolfshade]

This is actually a bit of a red herring; North Dakota is currently experiencing a huge boom in shale gas extraction, and their growth is being fueled entirely by the construction of well and housing for the workers moving in to the area, which are one-time purchases.

The whole thing is a bit of a red herring. I quoted the graphs for employment figures in post #5390 (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41512-Off-Topic-III-The-Revengening!&p=441504&viewfull=1#post441504)

It isn't exaclty strong evidence for or against it. Economics are far too difficult to work out than just saying broad brush statements.

[eldargal]

Yup, blame Ayn Rand...

[Mr Mystery]

It's even sadder when the little man echoes the big man :( I mean I get the people up top wanting to stay there. That's perfectly natural.

But the level of subtle oppression workers are subjected to is horrendous. I know this is a lazy, hackneyed target but take Oil companies 'What's that? We've only made £2.2 billion in profit? We were wanting £2.3 billion! There's only one thing for it. We'll have to cut jobs, because reasons.' So depressing.

[40kGamer]

I do tihnk capitalism is fundamentally the best economic system developed to date because it produced unprecedented growth, the trouble is the way it implemented. It NEEDS effective and efficient regulation, not to stifle growth but to prevent greed overpowering everything else.


Totally agree that Capitalism needs serious regulation to prevent wealth pooling at the top amongst other things. Also Capitalism is a horrible thing to apply to Healthcare. There is no way it can work for something that is literally a matter of life and death for people. Talk about an inelastic product! Also, I don't know if anyone has ever done a psychological profile of the wealthy but I suspect it would turn up deeply disturbed individuals.

[Wolfshade]

Yup people don't realise that Feudalism was based on reciprocal benefits and a noble with more peasants had more productivity through a larger workforce. You treat them like poop and they left for the nearest friendlier noble and boosted their productivity instead. You looked after the peasants, you prospered.

I do tihnk capitalism is fundamentally the best economic system developed to date because it produced unprecedented growth, the trouble is the way it implemented. It NEEDS effective and efficient regulation, not to stifle growth but to prevent greed overpowering everything else.

Edit: Also there are issues related to forcing capitalism on non-Western countries in the name of development which ultimately ends up making us lots of money and keeping them impoverished because their guvmint doesn't have the experience or institutional rigor to stand up to big business. Hell we struggle to do that and we expect some poor developing nation to do it? Ridiculous. But its ****ing up a lot of poorer countries.

Initially yes, but I think that capitalism cannot work ultimately.

At the moment what capitalism shows us is that the rich get richer by exploiting the resources of the poor. Ultimately, in this global economy the rich get richer the poor poorer until the poor can't afford the buy from the rich so the rich have no market. A "good" war is a great way to mix things up a bit, (social mobility post wars is massive) and re-distribute wealth and resources. Ultimately, if we are to get to a true balanced economy you end up doing things "not-for-profit" and end up with a pure communist system (not marxist or lenin/stalin/mao communisim) but a true form where things are done for the benefit of the society and everyone is a little cog in the machine.

You know, like how in Star Trek the UFP has no currency and people's main goals seem to be to fulfil themselves. Though there are merchants and it has always bugged me how the star fleet on DS9 got lattinum to start trading. but we won't look too deeply at that.

[40kGamer]

It's even sadder when the little man echoes the big man :( I mean I get the people up top wanting to stay there. That's perfectly natural.

But the level of subtle oppression workers are subjected to is horrendous. I know this is a lazy, hackneyed target but take Oil companies 'What's that? We've only made £2.2 billion in profit? We were wanting £2.3 billion! There's only one thing for it. We'll have to cut jobs, because reasons.' So depressing.

One thing I have seen working with companies is that the workforce ultimately takes on the personality of the top. I suspect this is through the hiring process as the top people choose candidates that reflect their personality. I also think the 'market' has unrealistic expectations of companies. Just like this year's GW report... it may be a signal of problems that need addressed but acting like they committed a crime by just making a few million is pretty extreme.

[Mr Mystery]

Healthcare shouldn't be entirely 100% privatised. Done so, it simply spirals in terms of costs, driving up premiums universally. Effectively, the hospitals and insurers can form little cartels, because it's pay their prices, or you know. Die.

Here in the UK? I've benefitted on many occasions from the ministrations of the NHS. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the NHS.

Yes, the old girl is battered and not quite working as well as you might want. There is too much middle management etc going, and the whole system could do with a bit of streamlining (sorry, no nose jobs/boob jobs etc any more).

So I'm doing my bit. I've got private healthcare through my employer. All I need trouble the NHS with is a referral from my GP, then it's off to a private hospital removing me from the queue, and letting the NHS deal with someone who doesn't have the option I have :)

[eldargal]

I think the key is having a capitalism economy, not a capitalist society. Not everything can be run for profit, some things need to be run regardless and the cost absorbed and ultimately paid for through taxes. Education, health, etc. So you have a basic core of essential services that produce intelligent, well rounded, thoughtful people who can then make money and pay taxes knowing those taxes will be used to maintain a society that actually thinks of them as people not automatons to work for the ultra rich.

I certainly agree the current trend in capitalism is not sustainable. But there is a reaction against it happening even at a corporate level with an increasing focus on ethical business practise.

[40kGamer]

Ultimately, if we are to get to a true balanced economy you end up doing things "not-for-profit" and end up with a pure communist system (not marxist or lenin/stalin/mao communisim) but a true form where things are done for the benefit of the society and everyone is a little cog in the machine.

The problem with any system is that people are flawed creatures and the select few that feel the need for power will do anything to have more than their share of the pie. They can justify it however they please but ultimately every system will face serious internal threats to it's survival. Whether it is successful at defending against these threats is completely up to the masses, most of whom will likely be ignorant of the issues to begin with. Who would have guessed that the practice of "Bread and Circuses" would still endure after so many centuries.

[Mr Mystery]

Though there are merchants and it has always bugged me how the star fleet on DS9 got lattinum to start trading. but we won't look too deeply at that.

Being a non-Federation outpost, they likely got an allowance from the Federation to enable them to properly interact.

[Wolfshade]

The problem with any system is that people are flawed creatures and the select few taht feel the need for power will do anything to have more than their share of the pie. They can justify it however they please but ultimately every system will face serious internal threats to it's survival. Whether it is successful at defending against these threats is completely up to the masses, most of whom will likely be ignorant of the issues to begin with. Who would have guessed that the practice of "Bread and Circuses" would still endure after so many centuries.

Oh yes I totally agree, hence I do not think it will be in my time or indeed my childrens or even great grandchildren's life time.

[Mr Mystery]

For any kind of communism to work, you need an abundant society, where the basic needs of all (food, water, shelter) are all comfortably met. Now we're currently capable of doing that. Except for Capitalism. Yay!

[40kGamer]

Oh yes I totally agree, hence I do not think it will be in my time or indeed my childrens or even great grandchildren's life time.

Sadly I agree. Barring the total collapse of the national economy, which would lead to unimaginable chaos, we won't see any real change in our lifetime. This leaves a person in the undesirable position of needing to game the system to have a better life... The hundreds of thousands of pages of laws and tax codes benefit the wealthy just as much (if not more so) then they limit them.

10388

[Wolfshade]

Well yes, going back a little bit, while looking at organic farming figures I discovered a "fact" that despite the millions of people who are malnuritished there is enough food being produced, it's just the hungry's fault for not being able to afford the food....

- - - Updated - - -


Sadly I agree. Barring the total collapse of the national economy, which would lead to unimaginable chaos, we won't see any real change in our lifetime. This leaves a person in the undesirable position of needing to game the system to have a better life... The hundreds of thousands of pages of laws and tax codes benefit the wealthy just as much (if not more so) then they limit them.

And that's why if anyone asks I live in Jersey for tax purposes ;)

Also Clavin & Hobbs ftw.

[Mr Mystery]

Well yes, going back a little bit, while looking at organic farming figures I discovered a "fact" that despite the millions of people who are malnuritished there is enough food being produced, it's just the hungry's fault for not being able to afford the food....

Quite so. It's shameful.

When I get the allotment up and running (probably next year at this rate), reckon I'll donate any excess to my friends, and the local church. Despite being an affirmed godless heathen, it's my hope they'll be able to get the veg to people who it might benefit.

I'm interested to see what happens in around 20, maybve 25 years time when my generation (probably the same as everyone else here) start looking politically to our retirements. All these changes? I reckon they'll be getting switched back. After all, majority of post-war Baby Boomers will be pushing up the daisies by then. They can extend retirment age to 70 if they want. We'll just change it back once we're in charge.

[Wolfshade]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Vegetable-Herb-Expert/dp/0903505754/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407164513&sr=1-1

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uf0OMmd6L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_SX385_SY500_CR,0,0,385,500_SH20_OU02_.jpg

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fruit-Expert-Dr-D-G-Hessayon/dp/0903505312/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407164513&sr=1-4

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517NLHdn5aL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_SX385_SY500_CR,0,0,385,500_SH20_OU02_.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

Yep. Such a nice spot! Just been onto the Council, and the forms are being sent out to me. EXCITE!

[40kGamer]

Well yes, going back a little bit, while looking at organic farming figures I discovered a "fact" that despite the millions of people who are malnuritished there is enough food being produced, it's just the hungry's fault for not being able to afford the food....

It is sad that there is plenty of food for everyone on earth but no real desire beyond a few token programs to actually feed the hungry.


And that's why if anyone asks I live in Jersey for tax purposes ;)

Also Clavin & Hobbs ftw.

Yessir! Gaming the tax code is as easy as pie if you know how.

Watterson is a genius. :)

[Wolfshade]

Dr Hessayon's books are good, sometimes a little overly precious but ho-hum.

Two top tips.

1) In late winter/ early spring don't bother to plant anything until you've had to weed the plot. After all, if weeds aren't growing nothing is, regardless of what a book tells you (also being so far south you might find yourself about 2 weeks in front of typical UK climate, even more if the winter is mild)

2) Mulch. It retains soil moisture, puts back nutrients into the plot and discourages weeds.

- - - Updated - - -


Yessir! Gaming the tax code is as easy as pie if you know how.

Watterson is a genius. :)

A friend of mine who works in Belgium (very high tax rates) is often approached to see if he wants to move to Leichenstien for taxes reasons. Him being a stand up bloke always says no, and says since he uses and benefits from the government's spending, he should give back his fair allowance.


I am trying to source some of these for next year:

http://www.kenmuir.co.uk/image/cache/data/Soft%20Fruits/BlackButteUntitled-8-400x400.jpg

Black Butte, though currently I have only found them at £12 per cane.

[Mr Mystery]

Anyone looking for an Office Job in London, my place are hiring.

PM me your email addy and I'll send you the details mmkay.

[Caitsidhe]

So, out of curiosity, how is laying off huge portions of your labor force to cover up other financial mistakes and prop up stocks viewed by the Labour Party? I've always gotten the impression that the Labour Party stands for the average man/woman and is supposed to defend them against the abuses of big business?

[Mr Mystery]

All a matter of perspective. If it's done to restructure and reduce running costs, ensuring future profitability and therefore safeguarding jobs in the long run, no real issue.

Whereas something like Cadbury's takeover, where a promise was made not to shut a certain factory in order to get the deal agreed, then doing it anyway, they tend to get the arse.

[Caitsidhe]

All a matter of perspective. If it's done to restructure and reduce running costs, ensuring future profitability and therefore safeguarding jobs in the long run, no real issue.

Whereas something like Cadbury's takeover, where a promise was made not to shut a certain factory in order to get the deal agreed, then doing it anyway, they tend to get the arse.

Fair enough, although since I was alluding to Games Workshop, I'd have to say that I don't buy the notion at all that the lay offs had anything to do with ensuring future profitability. If that were the case, there were lots of things they could have done besides taking a hatchet to their labor. That is just the one people go to first when trying to artificially prop up stocks. The only jobs they are interested in safeguarding is that of the Board. :D

[Mr Mystery]

Thing is, that model does seem to work.

During my first employment with GW, I was one of...erm....three part timers, and three full timers, including the manager in the full timers.

Third employment that was down to manager, full timer, and me as the part time spod. Couple of years later, and it's just the Manager. And the shop is doing better (still friendly with Manager. I don't get specifics because it's not my business, but it's been in growth for around 3 or 4 years) So the strategy is working. Closed Monday and Tuesday, as those tend to be the quietest days on the high street, though a bit of a bummer on bank holiday Mondays!

[40kGamer]

Corporate Executive guide to running a business:

1. Increase Revenues - find ceiling of what customers can/will pay. Value of product is an afterthought.
2. Cut Expenses - Find ways to squeeze costs out of lower levels while maintaining executive pork. Look for the basement for working conditions and wages. In this situation a weak economy is your friend.
3. If 1&2 have been successful and profits are up congratulate yourself and goto 4, otherwise blame anything / anyone for the situation, engage in public raging, crying and gnashing of teeth then goto 4.
4. Take a bonus 100 x the average workers pay. Buy another house, secure a new trophy spouse, take a vacation, etc.... when you are fully rested rinse and repeat. :p

[daboarder]

Totally agree that Capitalism needs serious regulation to prevent wealth pooling at the top amongst other things. Also Capitalism is a horrible thing to apply to Healthcare. There is no way it can work for something that is literally a matter of life and death for people. Talk about an inelastic product! Also, I don't know if anyone has ever done a psychological profile of the wealthy but I suspect it would turn up deeply disturbed individuals.

Agree. De-regulation is fhe biggest crime of the century.

[Darren Richardson]

sigh...

bored now.....

Have a picture of our cat instead of politics.

10410

:D

[Mr Mystery]

Puppy on Blanket is cuterer.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_rt_BzvwoUc/UlsmTAjkIPI/AAAAAAAABYs/WPlz-zGGos8/s1600/Koala+(1).JPG

And in other news, Bernie 'Mr F1' Ecclestone has been on trial in Germany for Bribery.

German Court now considering his $100,000,000 offer to end his trial......

Can someone give Alanis Morrisette a ring? We've found some proper irony for her.

[Gotthammer]

Leading scientist ejected by audience after 'trying to crowd surf' at classical music concert.

Give the article a read. (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/leading-scientist-ejected-by-audience-after-trying-to-crowd-surf-at-classical-music-concert-30371249.html)

[White Tiger88]

So any of you guys seem EP lately? I have a package of demons for him still, he needs to pay me for.......its been a month & a half..........

[Wildeybeast]

And in other news, Bernie 'Mr F1' Ecclestone has been on trial in Germany for Bribery.

German Court now considering his $100,000,000 offer to end his trial......

Can someone give Alanis Morrisette a ring? We've found some proper irony for her.

Without wanting to sound like a nitpicky arse, but no you haven't. A man on trial for bribery offering to 'pay off' his court case is very much predicable, if not expected. It is not ironic. Irony is either saying the opposite of what you mean, or, in the case of events, an outcome which is contrary to what you would normally expect (and often amusing as a result). It amazes me how often people get this wrong, and how often people slam Alanis when actually a lot of what she suggests is in fact ironic.

Edit: Having just checked the lyrics, I am revising my statement about Alanis. Some of what she says is ironic, but quite a bit is not.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, it is Ironic!

On trial for Bribery. Offers to buy (bribe) his way out of troub. Court considering it.... So his punishment for bribery is to have to bribe the court. Irony!

[Tyrendian]

does kinda make sense though since it avoids process costs, and there was no guarantee he would have been convicted. So maybe not see it as an outright bribe but as an agreement/compromise between both sides to just save all the trouble, since that's a sum that will hurt even Bernie (whom I'm not defending! never that! but that sort of thing is established practice for a reason...)

[Wildeybeast]

Well, it is Ironic!

On trial for Bribery. Offers to buy (bribe) his way out of troub. Court considering it.... So his punishment for bribery is to have to bribe the court. Irony!

But we expect his behaviour to include bribery given that is what he is on trial for and if as Tyrendian suggests, this sort of thing is common practice in Germany, it is entirely predictable that eh would do so. It is amusing, but not contrary to what you would expect. :p

[Mr Mystery]

Still Ironic, as you would expect the Court to frown upon what is essentially further bribery, to avoid being done for bribery :p

Most ironic thing about Alanis' song? American commentator blasted her for reinforcing the notion American's don't understand irony, neatly missing that she is in fact Canadian :p

http://argos.scene7.com/is/image/Argos/2395476_R_Z001A_UC1748527?$TMB$&wid=312&hei=312

Yes. Three please Santa. Closest thing I'll get to a working kombishoota!

http://www.blasterlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/N-Strike-Elite-Rhino-Fire-Big-1024x611.png


Mother of Dakka that won't get your arrested!

[Wolfshade]

It did give me a wry smile to think he is being on trial for bribery and pays his way out of it.

To be fair it is probably so complicated and convoluted that the state didn't think they could get a conviction, or if they could it would cost so much money that the fine might not cover it. This is just expediant

[Mr Mystery]

He's also paying them more than the alleged bribe!

Westminster parties, despite refusing a 'devo max' option on the ballot....now offering 'devo max' for a no vote (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28654142).

Anyone would think they were running scared..... How is it gonna turn out? DFK, DFC. I live and work in South East England, so neither have a say, nor a care how it turns out.

But it is amusing watching the Westminster parties squirm as they realise it's a lot closer than anyone thought (opinion polls currently suggesting a 'no' vote by around 10%. But you can guarantee the 'yes' voters will be out in force, as they need to be heard now).

And whatever the outcome? Alex Salmond, like him or loathe him, will go down in history as one of the most successful modern day politicians. Took his party from a minority (bad) joke, to a landslide victory, and delivered his main promise - a referendum. As I've pointed out before, he has never promised independence. Only that the will of the people would be made manifest.

[Tyrendian]

what's kinda sad about the Ecclestone thing is that, while the court can distribute the money literally as it pleases afaik (within certain limits of course, can't give it to themselves...), only 1% of it will go to charity

[40kGamer]

Well, it is Ironic!

On trial for Bribery. Offers to buy (bribe) his way out of troub. Court considering it.... So his punishment for bribery is to have to bribe the court. Irony!

The court prefers that you to call this a settlement. :D

[Mr Mystery]

How do you mean?

[40kGamer]

How do you mean?

'Bribe' is a dirty word, by calling it a 'settlement' it has been sanitized. Just poking a little fun at the fact that there is a general feeling that renaming something makes it somehow different from what it really is...

- - - Updated - - -


Give the article a read. (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/leading-scientist-ejected-by-audience-after-trying-to-crowd-surf-at-classical-music-concert-30371249.html)

He should have started a mosh pit... Guess he misunderstood the limits of clap and whoop. :)

[eldargal]

https://36.media.tumblr.com/135bba7e9a36f111a7a4fe44ee215c27/tumblr_mt9z2aKO2G1r7x4c4o1_500.jpg

[Wildeybeast]

Who or what is a Juggalo?

[eldargal]

Juggalo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggalo)

[40kGamer]

Who or what is a Juggalo?

Fans of the Insane Clown Posse

Edit: Too slow! These folks have gotten a lot of bad publicity... maybe they need a new hobby. :p

[Mr Mystery]

'Bribe' is a dirty word, by calling it a 'settlement' it has been sanitized. Just poking a little fun at the fact that there is a general feeling that renaming something makes it somehow different from what it really is...


I was meaning Tyrendian!

[40kGamer]

I was meaning Tyrendian!

:p ... and here I was feeling all important!

[Tyrendian]

yeah well Bernie is paying 100 million $ so that the case against him is laid to rest immediately (quite a common thing in Germany actually, though not usually with that kind of sums...). Now the court can decide what to do with the money, and apparently they have decided to give 99% of it straight to the state (Bavaria in this case) and only 1% to charity. While some of it sure should have gone to the state, many people, including experts watching the trial, expected something like a 50:50 split, which would also have felt less like Bernie buying his way straight out of the affair...

[Mr Mystery]

That's good of them....

Anyways.

Anyone got a Mechanicum fantasy?

http://www.blasterlabs.com/wp-content/themes/post-script/assets/images/image.php?width=840&height=400&cropratio=2.1:1&image=http://www.blasterlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Combat-Creature-Toy-Fair-2014-NY-Nerf-Header-Large.jpg

Coming from Nerf!

[Gotthammer]

http://i.imgur.com/25nSGjI.jpg


Roomba knife fight:


http://youtu.be/OwtxWL0P9wA

[eldargal]

Two roombas enter, one roomba leaves.

"First rule of roomba fight clu..."
"WHAT?! I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE ROOMBAS?"
"I SAID THE FIRST RULE OF ROOMBA FIGHT CLUB IS DON'T TALK ABOUT ROOMBA FIGHT CLUB!"
"WHAAT?"
"OH NEVER ****ING MIND BARRY"

[Gotthammer]

Home security: 5 roombas with knives taped to them roaming your house during the night. Also they clean up the burglars while you sleep!

[Caitsidhe]

So any of you guys seem EP lately? I have a package of demons for him still, he needs to pay me for.......its been a month & a half..........

What kind of Daemons are they?

[Aenir]

http://i.imgur.com/25nSGjI.jpg


Roomba knife fight:


http://youtu.be/OwtxWL0P9wA

the people who did the Roomba fight are supposed to be making that an ongoing series!

[Mr Mystery]

Channel 5 have picked up the rights to Gotham, which is nice (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28660275)

Just hope the series isn't awful.

Also, why does nobody ever tell me of these things? Age of Sail X-Wing equivalent? (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/109291/sails-glory) I think so!

[Wolfshade]

Because you never ask.

[Mr Mystery]

http://bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/imagesdogs-are-dumb.jpg

[Wolfshade]

Where is your research to prove it?

Do same sex couples have the same dog per household rate?

All the same sex couples I know have cats and not dogs. This could cause dogs to be homeless!

[Darren Richardson]

Where is your research to prove it?

Do same sex couples have the same dog per household rate?

All the same sex couples I know have cats and not dogs. This could cause dogs to be homeless!

no it's because dogs are bisexual, male dogs will shag other male dogs if they are frustrated and they are the alpha, I've had the misfortune of seing that firsthand.... :rolleyes:

Of course that scarpers the religious excuse that Gays are nurtured into existance rather then naturally occuring...

[Wolfshade]

It is a conspiracy by the league of cats with thumbs and the lizardmen to over throw the human race

[Wolfshade]

£3.85 for a pint of off beer wtf! I am outraged!

- - - Updated - - -

Also going back a little bit:
http://sluggy.com/images/comics/140806a.gif

[Mr Mystery]

Blimey.

It's holding steady at £3.50 a pint at my local. And they know how to keep their beer.

Also? LARP IN TWO WEEKS TIME! SQUEEEEEEEE!

[Wolfshade]

Suffice to say I shall not be back.

I don't mind paying north of £3 for very strong (9%+) microbrewery beers, but this was a generic blonde beer, the only thing of note was it was produced in Brazil

[Mr Mystery]

Well, that'll learn you to go drinking foreign 'beer' now won't it? Especially Blonde Beer. They might as well call it Lager and be done with it.

Keep it British. We know what we're doing with beer. Like drinking it.

[Wolfshade]

The other option was Doom Bar, which I saw a pint of being pulled. It looked like sludge, it was flat as a pancake.

[Mr Mystery]

Sounds like they don't know how to keep their beer.

Doom Bar is actually quite a nice tipple. Not top rank like, but distinctly adequate.

Not a patch on a pint of Harvey's though. Love Harvey's me!

[Wolfshade]

Well yes, between the two Doom Bar would have been my first choice but having seen it poured it was eek. Should have just had a coke...

[Mr Mystery]

Why can't people keep their beer proper? The freaks.

Lady behind Frozen to bring us Wrinkle in Time next (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28675247). Seems she has considerable clout with Disney, which is nice.

[Gotthammer]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/eacdf7db31b3e8be48dc94ffa049a1c5/tumblr_n9vd5tk5GU1qjnhqgo1_1280.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

Pfffrrtt....fnarr fnarr fnarr!

[Mr Mystery]

I got my allotment key! Just need to send back the forms, and boof, I've got me some laaaaaand.

Now......GERROFF MOI LAAAAAAAND!

http://www.electronicspoint.com/attachments/farmerpalmer-jpg.12398/

[Kirsten]

I got my allotment key! Just need to send back the forms, and boof, I've got me some laaaaaand.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-z5T8meC84

[Mr Mystery]

Yes. Precisely that.

Also.

GERROF MOI LAAAAAAAND!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Nearly time for the Game Day for M15. I AM READY.

[Mr Mystery]

Of what now?

[Darren Richardson]

Why can't people keep their beer proper? The freaks.

Lady behind Frozen to bring us Wrinkle in Time next (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28675247). Seems she has considerable clout with Disney, which is nice.

So Disney are going to remake a film they have already made in the past decade or so already?

They really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now arn't they :D

[Wolfshade]

It is when Disney try to remake the classic Sharknado then I will march.

[Mr Mystery]

Dunno. But I'm getting me an Azada (http://www.get-digging.co.uk/tools.htm)

Allotment hasn't been touched for 10 year or so I'm told, so need to give it a good old fashioned whoopin'! One of these ought to the trick. And it's a pretty manly tool.

Heavy duty puppy, with the 55" handle ta.

[Wolfshade]

You will find a dutch hoe is better for weeding

[Mr Mystery]

This is for breaking up the soil and general digging. Round my way it's all clay soil, so any labour saver is gratefully received.

Also getting a Hoe, because as you say they're dead handy. And probably from that website as they stock 55" handles. Being 6'3"ish that is most appreciated by my spine.

[Wolfshade]

I thought you said they had a communial rotivator?

If it is just clay, consider making raised beds.

[Mr Mystery]

There is the rotivator, but a lot needs doing. Seems the previous occupant just kept trying to level it off, and made it worse. Azada is definite tool of use for me! Plus looking at the rotivator, it doesn't dig particularly deeply, so can use it to do the top layer, then Azada the rest into submission.

Plus I really want an Azada :p

[Wolfshade]

Psh, I would say double dig and compost/fertilise.

Through before you go off on one consider what you want to plant and when they should go in.

At the moment there isn't a lot to put in, maybe late veggies for Christmas, onions maybe?

[Mr Mystery]

Not gonna have the readies to get tools and that until end of September - I've got LARP in a fortnight, buying and insuring a car, plus parent's Ruby Anniversary, so by the time I've got my tools and whipped it into a more pleasing state, I'm looking at mid-Octoberish. So planting will be after that, if there's much worth doing!

[Wolfshade]

http://www.allotment-garden.org/garden-month-help/garden-october.php

[Wolfshade]

1 Day setting up experiment
10 Days running experiment
2 Days analysing results
0.5 Days writting up report

Net Result: Control & Trial results are almost indentical less than 0.50% difference between the two data sets.

Net Conclusion: Pointless.

[Mr Mystery]

Have you tried kicking it?

[Wolfshade]

Essentially, though the kicking only resorted in a slightly higher improvement. Ah well.

The failure to show the hypothesis is in itself a result and will help improve the customer experiance.

Plus I should be able to bang it out into a published paper.

[Wolfshade]

I am mighty and victorious!

[Mr Mystery]

You know what's difficult?

Trying to work out what my pension pot might be worth in 33 years time when I hit retirement age (provided the baby boomers don't hike it up again to protect their own precious income)

I know what my monthly and indeed annual contribution is, and what that will total.

But any kind of vague indication as to what interest and investment might add to it? Nothing. Nada. Nowt. Zilch.

[Wolfshade]

Yeah the very helpful low, medium and high forecasts let you know nothing!

- - - Updated - - -

For what it is worth I believe that the retirement age will be in the 80s by the time I get there.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno. I'm still kind of hopeful my generation, sick of being skint and propertyless by dint of having the misfortune of being born in the Eighties will just start switching stuff back. It's not much fun having the poopy end of the stick through no fault of your own!

Managed to find a vague calculation, and going off what I expect to be earning this time next year? £222,000.00, which they reckon with no lump sum taken out, will get me an annuity of £12,600.00 before the state pension is added.. Which isn't too shabby, and doesn't take into account any increase in my earnings, or other fangly stuff.

[Wolfshade]

Or inflation, government raids on pension pots (I'm looking at you mr Brown).

I've just increased my contributions to the max that my company will match.

I figure anything above that is best spent making over payments on my mortgage as property will be a better investment

[Mr Mystery]

I've done the same. They match me up to 3%, and I get a pretty decent free contribution to boot, which goes up next year when I hit 35.

Plus, there's every chance I'll make Ombudsman in the next few years, and that'll help a lot!

Man it's weird to plan that far in advance!

[Wolfshade]

Yeah, makes you feel all grown up.

My company will match up to 6% but without any free contributions about that.

What I want to do is free up some cash and start investing in these 5 year fixed schemes, once you get them rolling, depending on the return they can start to pay for themselves and then fund the next one so they all cahin together.

Though with interest rates being so low it is more efficient I reckon to get rid of the mortgage. When the rate starts to rise it might be time to reconsider

[Mr Mystery]

Oh absolutely. Interest Rate low? PAY OFF YOUR MORTGAGE. Interest Rate middle? PAY OFF YOUR MORTGAGE. Interest Rate High? PAY OFF YOUR MORTGAGE!

I'm kind of pinning hopes on Ombudsman. At that point I'll be able to get a decent mortgage, and have repaired by credit rating. Can then go all out to pay it off as fast as possible, and just suck it up for a bit whilst doing so. That done, between possible pension and expected inheritance I should end up set for life!

Also, with pensions - totes worth taking up smoking just prior to retirment. Means they pay out more on the annuity. Then of course, quite smoking, and stick it to the man!

[Mr Mystery]

Oh colleagues. Why don't you just do it right the first time, and save a lot of mucking about at later stages requesting the correct information.

I mean, you'd think we didn't have a colossal backlog of cases, and more coming in all the time. :(

[Wolfshade]

I may have exciting news to share shortly.