Eldar Rumour Titbits

[lastlostboy]

I don't get how you all ignore the fact that you don't know anything about the banshees special rules. -.-

You know what Jain Zar get with 'acrobatic' and 'banshee warmask' - but not the banshees itself.
I think Jain Zars rules are an addition.

I really think (or hope) they will can assault out of Serpents becaues of acrobatics as well as the warmask granting granate rules.


So long

EDIT:

So at this point I think the only really disappointing units are:
Banshees
Support Batteries
Autarchs
Fire Prism
Falcon
Guardians

You are ****ing kidding me...

Support Batteries have S6 something-like-rending for 30 points
or a S9 AP2 beam weapon for a little more than 100 points I think
all with T7 3+, which can be made 2+ with a warlock

the fire prism have scattered S5 AP3 large blast
and even a s9 lance fire mode

the falcon can tw their s9 ap2 weapons by taking a scatter laser

Yeah, right, I'm very, very disappointed.
I feel with you...

[Caitsidhe]

Except you have ... 3+ armor across the board and at least T4.

Eh. So what? I dont' care about having 3+ now (pre-Eldar). The days where 3+ mattered much are over.


Which is huge... unless you've played a T3 army you don't appreciate T4. When I started playing Blood Angels it was almost like an easy button (admittedly not so much anymore)

I will note that one of the two games I lost at the GT was to an Eldar player. :) Volume of fire and AP-3 or AP-2 fire seems to dominate this edition. A low model count army doesn't get a huge benefit out of 3+ anymore. That pays off more in dividends over time and you don't get that time. I'm not saying it isn't nice to have, but it isn't near the benefit it once was due to the the fact that offensive output has made a quantum leap beyond defensive capability. I liken it to certain bows making platemail more or less obsolete. Cheaper firepower overcoming more expensive defense.

*If I had a choice to get cheaper units or more volume of fire by dropping to less effective armor... I WOULD.

[eldargal]

T4 3+ is a huge advantage, if you think all that Ap3 and 2 fire is bad then it's worse against T3 4+ armies.

[magickbk]

I'm not taking the time to carefully go through each and every rumor, but this seems pretty on par with the other 6th books we've seen (disclaimer: I haven't read through Daemons). It seems like there is a reset of sorts going on to place all the new books on a roughly equal playing field. As usual, a few new things appear to have some extra goodness - they have to sell models, right? The BS bump for Guardians alone is enough to completely change how I view certain units.

Like most of the new books, it seems like some units fill a role that no one here seems to need, which lends support to my theory that the studio has a meta of its own that doesn't really reflect the rest of the world at large.

[Autarch]

Actually it'd be pretty easy to run MEQ Eldar list. Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Scorpions, Spiders, Jetbikes, Fire Dragons, Reapers, Autarchs, and Rangers in decent cover.

[Defenestratus]

Wave Serpent: A bad transport but an excellent main battle tank.

Sorry - the wave serpent is an *excellent* transport. Star Engines with a jink and 2+ downgrade of all pens to glances? Yes. Please.

So what if you can't assault out of it. Not the end of the world. Every other army has to deal with it.

[eldargal]

Sorry - the wave serpent is an *excellent* transport. Star Engines with a jink and 2+ downgrade of all pens to glances? Yes. Please.

So what if you can't assault out of it. Not the end of the world. Every other army has to deal with it.

If you can't assault out of it then it has limited utility, the fact that other armies have the same problem is irrelevant, it's not their codex. Yes they will be useful for delivering Fire Dragons to enemy armour and shuttling Dire Avengers about. Woohoo.

[Caitsidhe]

T4 3+ is a huge advantage, if you think all that Ap3 and 2 fire is bad then it's worse against T3 4+ armies.

I agree. the T4 is BIG... but the 3+ is not as much as you would think. I don't care about 3+ armor at all either on my side or theirs. :D Each new Codex brings out more AP-3 weapons, so much so that in competitive tournaments I assume my Power Armor Marines are going to die just like Cultists. :D

Sadly it is a numbers game wherein the very weapons that tend to be AP-3 and AP-2 are also HIGH STRENGTH. So the same shots that ignore my armor are pretty much ignoring my T4 too in so far as what they need on the dice to wound me. :D Volume of fire seems to count more than defensive rolls. Volumes of ACCURATE fire count even more and volumes of accurate, high strength fire tells the tale. I think that Power Armor was really in its hay day when assault was at least remotely viable. The only thing I can get into combat in a reliable way are Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I wouldn't worry too much until we see the official book, but there are at least a couple of competitive builds in here for Eldar (at least as many as for my CSM).

[eldargal]

Fresh from Warseer via Minsc: Acrobatic adds 3" to run distance. With fleet and battle focus that is very fast.

Much of that high S fire that kills your marines easily IDs eldar, so we still have it worse.

[Learn2Eel]

Ok so reading over the rules a bit more and making some assumptions:
Note: I started drinking scotch just after the HQ section, be wanred.
HQ:
Avatar is pretty nifty. I missed whether or not it ha EQ, I hope so.
Farseer: IF Ghosthelm does what it does now, still very good. If not, problematic. Giving it the benefit of the doubt.
Autarch: Still not seeing any compelling reason to take one beyonf Wings of Failchew shenanigans.
Spiritseer: Wraithguard as troops, enough said.
Phoenix Lords: Looking fantastic, not giving them all invulnerable saves or the option to buy one is a missed opportunity but not catastrophic.
Illic. Possibly OP. Infiltrate anywhere with a unit of your choice? Banshee deliver system? Lol.
Eldrad: Still Eldrad, only moreso. Bless him.

Harlequins: Need more details re: wargear
Fire Dragons: Still perhaps the greatest anti-armour unit in the game.
Striking Scorpions: Very good, still suffer from the lack of an assault vehicle but less so than Banshees and their wargear and abilities are nice
Howling Banshees: Sigh. Maybe if they do actually have grenades and Acrobatic offers something useful like Furious Charge or the ability to assault out of a vehicle they will be useful. If not, another edition of fail.
Wraithguard/Blades: Very, very impressive. The shooty whatsits are amazing, especially if the AP2 flamer thing is accurate (it may be AP5). Wraithblades offer a durable melee unit that should be able to tank things even if its offensive capacity isn't exceptional.

Dire Avengers: New shuriken is better than old Bladestorm. Units in Wave Serpents to zip about holding objectives and shooting the **** out of things seems viable
Guardians: Hmm. Maybe good depending on heavy weapons. Otherwise average. Extra mobility may help them avoid assaults, 12" range is still too small. Big blobs of Guardians backed with an Avatar will still be powerful.
Jetbikes: Holy hell, turbo boosting, low cover saving not quite rending cheap death machines of deathly death.

Wave Serpent: A bad transport but an excellent main battle tank.

Hemhemhemlock Racetrack: Seems ok
Crimson Hunter: Vector dancing, Bs4/5 4 S8 lance shots on a flyer? Oh god yes. AV10 disappointing but not catastrophic.
Vyper squadron: See above re: turbo boosting, low cover saving, not quite rending cheap death machines of deathly death. Only with bigger guns.
Warp Spiders: Seem solid.
Swooping Hawks: Not so sure about these. May be very useful againt light infantry and vehicles, may not be. I think I need to sit down with the rules then play some games.
Shining Spears: Forgot to read the rules.
Wraithknight: We wants its babies preciouss.
War Walkers: Very fast, much more expensive. Not sure if worth a HS slot compared to others
Support Battery: Meh
Fire Prism: Might be nice with the 24" inch cruising speed. I think there are better HS choices.
Falcon: See above, better HS choices
Wraithlord: More expensive, durable, synergises with other wraith units. Perhas sunergises better with wraith army than other choices
Dark Reapers: Seem better, forgot to read rules properly.

So at this point I think the only really disappointing units are:
Banshees
Support Batteries
Autarchs
Fire Prism
Falcon
Guardians

With a few more being unclear due to me forgetting the rules or lack of knowledge of wargear specifics (assuming they weren't buried somewhere in the wall of text and I missed them.

So on the whole not bad, but disappointing in some ways based on what we know now. Potential for more and less disappointment depending how things go.

Banshees can assault after running, is that confirmed? That's a nice boost, helps get them into combat fast and minimise shooting. Losing a couple to overwatch is less bad. The loss og grenades is still much more of a problem, striking simultaneously is bad.

Yep, I can tell you've been drinking lol.

About the stuff you had questions about;

Avatar doesn't have Eternal Warrior.
Raziel seemed to say the Ghosthelm was "as now", though it may have been replaced by the "expend warp charge to ignore Perils".
A note on Eldrad; aside from the general Runes nerf, the guy has managed to get even better.
Howling Banshees don't have grenades. Have to wait and see if their Acrobatic is different to Jain Zar's; the wording of her Acrobatic rule would indicate it is.
Shining Spears are 3+ armoured Jetbikes with Skilled Rider and a gun that is referred to as "haywire lance" (no idea if it functions as before), and the Exarch can take a S8 AP2 lance gun that is also S8 AP2 in melee :eek:
Dark Reapers are cheaper, have Slow and Purposeful and can take proper missile launcher shots now (including anti-air).

EDIT: That is decent. Not what we hoped for, but nonetheless, makes getting Howling Banshees around a bit easier.

[eldargal]

Sadly it is also confirmed that Banshees no longer have grenades and that the Banshee masks works on the turn they charge only which would be fine if they still negated cover or negated overwatch. But they don't, so they are terrible.

****.

[Caitsidhe]

Fresh from Warseer via Minsc: Acrobatic adds 3" to run distance. With fleet and battle focus that is very fast.

Much of that high S fire that kills your marines easily IDs eldar, so we still have it worse.

I'll defer that your characters have it worse. :) Instant Death doesn't matter to anything that isn't multi-wound.

[eldargal]

Yes it does. S6 Ap3 will still give T4 a shot at surviving, S6 AP3 kills any eldar instantly multi-wound or not.

Heavy weapons much cheaper accross all units, particularly war walkers and vypers. Big plus.

[Learn2Eel]

Yes it does. S6 Ap3 will still give T4 a shot at surviving, S6 AP3 kills any eldar instantly multi-wound or not.

My T4 characters usually end up dieing from S6 AP3 anyway :( No-one likes Heldrakes.

I haven't even seen the heavy weapon costs, though I expected them to be a lot cheaper. Good stuff!

[Aldavaer]

My understanding is that Ghosthelm remains the same, however, if you still fail you can then expend a warp charge to save the wound if you have one left.

[eldargal]

I think I'll write to GW and ask them to errata grenades back to Banshees. It won't achieve anything but at least I tried. Really quite upset that after five years of dwindling usefulness instead of being revamped Banshees are even worse.

[imperialpower]

Well this all sounds very depressing, I knew there was a reason I didn't read this thread.

[Defenestratus]

If you can't assault out of it then it has limited utility, the fact that other armies have the same problem is irrelevant, it's not their codex. Yes they will be useful for delivering Fire Dragons to enemy armour and shuttling Dire Avengers about. Woohoo.

And yet we complain when we don't get every toy in the box?

Its part of a game - we're not always going to be able to get access to what it is that we want. Did it ever occur to you that an assault wave serpent would be pretty broken actually when you take into account all of its available upgrades?

[Learn2Eel]

D-Scythes carried by Wraithguard are indeed AP2 :) If Illic really does Infiltrate with anyone.....oh dear.
Banshee Masks on Autarchs will be fun, especially because they cost very little - join him up with Striking Scorpions or Wraithblades (ironically) and watch the carnage.

Oh, and Warp Spiders; Jetpack Infantry with Battle Focus and Warp Jump Generators.
That means (mind you, their guns are good too);

Move 6" + 2D6".
Shoot.
Run D6" (re-rollable).
Assault move 2D6".

:eek:

Howling Banshees do seem to have one good delivery option; Illic, or perhaps Karandras. Of course, surviving the first shooting phase will suck. At least with Illic, if there is good cover available, either set up in it or as close to the enemy as possible while staying out of sight.

[eldargal]

And yet we complain when we don't get every toy in the box?

Its part of a game - we're not always going to be able to get access to what it is that we want. Did it ever occur to you that an assault wave serpent would be pretty broken actually when you take into account all of its available upgrades?
Yes I did, which is why I said I would happily trade the serpent field for assault vehicle and a boost to its save.

[Caitsidhe]

All I can say (as a CSM player) is that no matter how reasonable your comments, they are just going to call you whiners if you voice them. It isn't fair, but then again... life rarely is fair. I will say that Disarm looks like the big "up yours" to all the other Monstrous Creatures (particularly Chaos Daemons) who rely on nifty stuff. I don't like the notion of probably not getting my Black Mace in that fight.

Chaos Space Marine players can't say anything at all negative about any unit in their book without getting lambasted as whiners.

[Defenestratus]

Shining Spears are 3+ armoured Jetbikes with Skilled Rider and a gun that is referred to as "haywire lance" (no idea if it functions as before), and the Exarch can take a S8 AP2 lance gun that is also S8 AP2 in melee

Which is all the way they are now.

They're just cheaper and can get in a bigger squad - which is all I wanted from the spears.

[Defenestratus]

I think people have to forget the way that banshees used to work. They are no longer front line assault troops. Those are now harlequins, Wraithblades, Shining Spears and to some extent, Scorpions. Banshees should only really be considered a potent counter-assault element to a shooty list.

We need to learn to play more like Tau that can't shoot instead of Eldar that can assault.

[Learn2Eel]

All I can say (as a CSM player) is that no matter how reasonable your comments, they are just going to call you whiners if you voice them. It isn't fair, but then again... life rarely is fair. I will say that Disarm looks like the big "up yours" to all the other Monstrous Creatures (particularly Chaos Daemons) who rely on nifty stuff. I don't like the notion of probably not getting my Black Mace in that fight.

Chaos Space Marine players can't say anything at all negative about any unit in their book without getting lambasted as whiners.

Particularly on the Avatar of Khaine....that now has Fleet. I can tell you one thing, if my regular Eldar opponents use the Avatar, I won't be sending my Daemon Prince anywhere near them, Black Mace/Axe of Blind Fury or not......
That thing is scary as hell.


Which is all the way they are now.

They're just cheaper and can get in a bigger squad - which is all I wanted from the spears.

Yeah, wasn't too sure. Still, 10 points cheaper each. Woo!

[Caitsidhe]

Particularly on the Avatar of Khaine....that now has Fleet. I can tell you one thing, if my regular Eldar opponents use the Avatar, I won't be sending my Daemon Prince anywhere near them, Black Mace/Axe of Blind Fury or not......
That thing is scary as hell.

Yep. The only answer to it is to try and shoot it down the hard way. :( I'm not too keen on that. Hence my earlier comments about this game becoming more and more like old Godzilla movies.

[eldargal]

A counter assault unit that can only counter assault units not in terrain.:(

I'm suddenly feeling more well disposed to Shining Spears, even the models:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2580103a_99800104018_ShiningSpearsBitzRES01_873x6 27.jpg
They look nicer than I remember (I've not looked at mine in a while) and their legs are kind of adorable. Need to replace the lances though.

[isotope99]

Are we certain that the Banshee mask allows the opponent to strike at I1 and not I0 (which I think is what they FAQ'd for the similar sounding slaanesh fiend's effect? If so, against most units <I6 it would still allow banshees to go first. Otherwise I agree don't see why they would take away the grenades.

The acrobatic Move-Run-Assault with fleet re-rolls gives roughly a 19 inch average charge range absent cover which is not so bad, and with fleet even through cover it's not much worse. Turn 1 move up the wave serpent and deploy the banshees with a run then flat out it to use it as a LOS blocker/cover provider. Turn 2 move it out the way and then assault.

Turn 1 approx 13 inch average
Turn 2 approx 19 inch average

Not an awful charge range.

More likely I can see them as an objective guard, hiding out of sight and then charging anything that gets too close.

[deaddice]

As for banshees the only way I can see then being viable is as a tie breaker unit.

You bog down an enemy unit in close combat then get the banshees charge in the next turn to crack them.

Course this seems rather elaborate, I suppose it could work in a footdar army if you had wraith blades in front however if the rumours for acrobatic are true , the bonus to their runs roll is wasted as you need the banshees behind the tough as nails wraithblades, so they get at least some cover and not blasted to ****.

[eldargal]

Sadly teh way toe Mask works now it just drops their initiatve by five to a minimum of 1 I'm fairly sure.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't think we are sure of ANYTHING yet, unless one of you wants to admit already having a book EARLY?

[eldargal]

Minsc on Warseer seems to have a copy.

[deaddice]

A counter assault unit that can only counter assault units not in terrain.:(

I'm suddenly feeling more well disposed to Shining Spears, even the models:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2580103a_99800104018_ShiningSpearsBitzRES01_873x6 27.jpg
They look nicer than I remember (I've not looked at mine in a while) and their legs are kind of adorable. Need to replace the lances though.

I converted my spears with dark elf cold one knights, the spear arms are plastic and don't throw off the balance ( my spears are the old metal ones), I glued on shield to make them more well knight like.

[Learn2Eel]

Yep. The only answer to it is to try and shoot it down the hard way. :( I'm not too keen on that. Hence my earlier comments about this game becoming more and more like old Godzilla movies.

I'm actually surprised at how cost-effective it is. I expected it to get a stat-line like a Greater Daemon and.....it certainly got one! WS10, BS10, S6, T6, W5, I10, A5, 3+ 5++. :eek:


I don't think we are sure of ANYTHING yet, unless one of you wants to admit already having a book EARLY?

I've seen a lot of this stuff first-hand, but I didn't see everything.

[Kyban]

We need to learn to play more like Tau that can't shoot instead of Eldar that can assault.

Sooo, roll over and die? Tau that can't shoot are useless.:p

[D6Damager]

Can anyone confirm if Illic has the independant character rule?

[Caitsidhe]

I'm actually surprised at how cost-effective it is. I expected it to get a stat-line like a Greater Daemon and.....it certainly got one! WS10, BS10, S6, T6, W5, I10, A5, 3+ 5++. :eek:

Yep. It is very, very nasty. The Disarm makes it the favored winner of any MC on MC battle given it can take away the Instant Death weapons and so on. I'll want to be sure to have weaned it of a few wounds before contact to be sure since I must assume the worst that I won't have my Black Mace. :D

[Defenestratus]

Sooo, roll over and die? Tau that can't shoot are useless.:p

Its certainly not going to be easy - but then again Eldar have never been a beginners army.

Finding out where the synergies come together is going to be key. We can't be stuck in past editions' mold such as Doom + Banshees = win. We have to think of new ways to exploit the advantages in the army. The answers to the well oiled swordwind have never really been at face value and from what information we have now - its not enough to figure it out.

What I am scared about is that making these combinations seems to be VERY pricey. Again, just looking at a jetbike council of 5 is likely as much as a squad of 9 was before.

[Learn2Eel]

Agreed. Especially because the Avatar goes first and can Smash with four attacks on the charge!

Laser Lances for Shining Spears are now AP3. They are also now S:+3 AP3 in melee on the charge (interestingly, their melee attacks also have Lance so they can glance Land Raiders and stuff I think).
Woah! Warp Spiders Spinneret Rifles (as in, their standard gun) is now not only S6 AP1 Pinning (as before), but Rapid Fire! Also S7 against enemies with I3 or lower.

[Gwyidion]

Am I Missing something on guardians?

It would appear that a 20-strong squad of guardians can take 2 EMLs @ BS4 ~200 points?

That would go a long way towards defraying the Eldar's longstanding problem with long-ranged AT, BS4 AT in troops! With a healthy dose of Stay the F*** Away in the 20 Bladestorm-d shuricats.

Also, can anyone confirm which units warlocks can attach to? I've heard "any", "guardian jetbikes, defender, storm units" and "guardians or wraithguard". Who can take warlocks makes a HUGE difference.

[eldargal]

So the bright side is that my favourite all-female unit is maybe situationally useful in a support capacity, wonderful.:p Maybe they can have a bake sale to help boost morale! (this is me on a silly rant, not responding to anyone else)

[Defenestratus]

Woah! Warp Spiders Spinneret Rifles (as in, their standard gun) is now not only S6 AP1 Pinning (as before), but Rapid Fire! Also S7 against enemies with I3 or lower.

It appears that the rapid fire gun is the spinnerette rifle which is the gun that the exarch can get. The "mono-blaster" is what seems to be the traditional Warp Spider gun which is 12" Assault 2, s6 Ap- Monofilament (rendinglite on a 6 to wound)

[Defenestratus]

So the bright side is that my favourite all-female unit is maybe situationally useful in a support capacity, wonderful.:p Maybe they can have a bake sale to help boost morale! (this is me on a silly rant, not responding to anyone else)

I think we need to have a discussion about "reasonable expectations" if you were thinking that banshees would be the best assault unit in the game bar-none.

Aspect warriors are all situational, and it appears that banshees will still be a potent counter-assault unit to a stout gunline army.

[Learn2Eel]

Ah ok, must have been a mistranslation. Was gonna say that that sounded over the top lol.

Ah, my issue was that the summary on Heresy Online mislabels the weapons in the unit section but not the wargear section.

[Caitsidhe]

Look we all knew (or at least cynical people like me) expected them to rig it so our existing models wouldn't cut the mustard as much unless more were purchased and that the best combinations were going to come from having to buy new ones. I don't like it any better than any of you, but GW is remaining true to form. I feel for you Eldargal... I really do... I have 10,000pts of models on my shelf that don't see the light of day now because they are "situationally useful" at best. ;)

[eldargal]

I think we need to have a discussion about "reasonable expectations" if you were thinking that banshees would be the best assault unit in the game bar-none.

Aspect warriors are all situational, and it appears that banshees will still be a potent counter-assault unit to a stout gunline army.
How do you get from 'I wish Banshees were a viable assault unit' to 'best assault unit in the game'?

[Caitsidhe]

How do you get from 'I wish Banshees were a viable assault unit' to 'best assault unit in the game'?

Well... asking for a "viable" assault unit in this Edition would be asking for the best assault unit in the game. ;)

[eldargal]

Not really, being able to charge into cover and not suffer too much from shooting would be enough. With the run move they were almost halfway there, even without assault vehicles.

[EldarMojo]

I think I'll write to GW and ask them to errata grenades back to Banshees. It won't achieve anything but at least I tried. Really quite upset that after five years of dwindling usefulness instead of being revamped Banshees are even worse.
You go girl!

It may well turn out to be an omission anyway. I'm pretty sure we've already seen a few items of wargear get errata'd in 6th Ed (Dark Angels for sure had it). I think that all aspect warriors should probably have plasma grenades anyway.

Do we know if Warlocks have to make psychic tests on Ld 8?
From what I am hearing I am guessing that they want to really have Eldar trickery with the new powers having buffs and de-buffs in all manner of departments. But if we are relying on that from randomly generated powers requiring Ld8 tests... well that would be a bit worrying. Not sky is falling, but not very Eldar-like to be sure at the very least.

12 inch catapults are still disappointing though. I think that at the very least vehicles and bikes should have 18 inch range catapults. I know it sounds whiny, but it really really sticks in my craw and it just doesn't make sense to me. It just makes Shuriken Catapults come across as more akin to a shotgun than a rifle.

[Caitsidhe]

It can never hurt to ask. I ask all the time. It hasn't worked yet, but I hold out hope for others. :D

[deaddice]

Hmm kelly in the white dwarf says that banshees "strike faster than any other warrior could hope to" whatever that means.... which when compared on internal balance seems to be a lie as well, spears will get there faster.

Perhaps they being made into a "rapid response" unit ??

In any case I will try a few games with them in the new codex and see if I can find a method to kick *** with them, this includes an archon with a PGL !!!!!

[HERO]

There seems to be 2 camps to this release just like it is in every release:
the super happy, excited crowd (mostly non-Eldar, looking to buy Eldar crowd), and the utterly depressed, pessimistic crowd (mostly Eldar veterans, but some new players too).

I don't know what to tell you folks. Eldar is actually my most successful army back in 3rd/4th, and Dark Eldar in 5th/6th. I am generically a dirty space Elf player, or dirty Elf player period since I have High Elves too.

I'm very in the middle of the road when it comes to this new book. Some good, some bad, but if I was to tip the scale to one side, I'm thinking the good.

Good in terms I see pretty solid balance from what I've seen so far, but not so good in that a lot of the options seem to be higher priced than I expected. Elite armies are very hard to balance from a game design perspective. You want to keep them expensive, but how exactly do you do that to a T3 unit with moderate armor saves in a very shooty game? I can see the difficulty in design here but I don't doubt Phil Kelly's ability to make it work. He's probably the best author for Eldar because he's had the most experience with them. I would much rather have a designer who's utterly familiar with a race do the design than someone completely alien (Cruddace doesn't play Nids, he plays Guard, look how it turned out).

Regardless, I'm going to have a sit down later and go over the details because the book's practically out on the internet (Thanks to those who helped). You will have my 2-3 cents then.

Also, Farseers are pretty good. I can see 1 Fate and 2 Divination as the standard: double Guide essentially + whatever else.

[eldargal]

If they had grenades I could happily see myself taking some in a WS as a rapid response unit. Without grenades? Meh. Have to rely on locking them in combat with another unit first rather than stopping a potential assault. Clumsy at best.

Hero, that is simplistic. I'm depressed about Banshees but most other things are looking very good.

[Caitsidhe]

Don't forget the "pragmatic" camp (#3). :) I'm neither thrilled or let down. It is about what I expected. You will get what you "pay" for. :)

[Defenestratus]

How do you get from 'I wish Banshees were a viable assault unit' to 'best assault unit in the game'?

But... they *are* a viable assault unit.

[EldarMojo]

Question:
If you bring two big guns on the WraithKnight and two scatter lasers or what have you, can it actually fire them all? Even if the shoulder mount weapons are twinlinked, that's three weapons. I mean monstrous creatures can only fire two guns, Tau have wargear in their suits to allow them fire more. So is bringing two big guns on a Wraithknight kinda redundant? (I haven't noticed any pics of a Wraithnight without the shoulder mounts and the two arm mounted systems, although maybe I just missed it)

[Nx2]

Hmm kelly in the white dwarf says that banshees "strike faster than any other warrior could hope to" whatever that means.... which when compared on internal balance seems to be a lie as well, spears will get there faster.

Insofar as their masks reduce enemy initiative by 5, that statement by kelly is not entirely true, some units still strike as fast as banshees (avatar, units in cover ;)).

In general, one should not forget that the new banshees are quite cheap at 15 a pop. Furthermore, the exarch has some useful powers and weapons which are also quite cheap. Especially compared to the scorpions. For example, the banshee exarch can take a death blade (dont know the correct translation), grace and disarm at only ~30, which makes her quite good at challenges (remember that you still get one attack when you use grace, if disarm works in the first place, you dont even have to use it (though im not entirely sure whether you can decide to trigger them one after the other and if grace is optional once you bought it.))

[Caitsidhe]

But... they *are* a viable assault unit.

Hrm... in so much as any non-Flying Monstrous Creature or Monstrous Creature is viable in assault. :D

[Bitrider]

Nothing to do with the Eldar codex here, but how often do you find yourself with a unit that is transported, gets out, does its job, then gets back in said transport and moves away?

More to prove your point than anything else, just once actually. I was pretty surprised at the time and it was with a squad of FDs.

[eldargal]

But... they *are* a viable assault unit.

No they aren't. Against any other dedicated assault unit they will struggle in anything but optimal circumstances.

[Defenestratus]

No they aren't. Against any other dedicated assault unit they will struggle in anything but optimal circumstances.

They're not meant to stand alone! Do you even PLAY eldar?

Do you understand how each unit is supposed to support each other?

Because the way you're whinging about banshees I just don't think you do.

[EldarMojo]

They're not meant to stand alone! Do you even PLAY eldar?

Do you understand how each unit is supposed to support each other?

Because the way you're whinging about banshees I just don't think you do.

That's a bit harsh. Yes Eldar use synergy, but equally they employ specialist roles. Therefore it is not unfair to say that a specialist assault unit should be able to destroy other assault units on its own, otherwise where is the specialisation? What is the point?
And it doesn't matter a jot if a Banshee costs 1pt per model if you expect them to require how many other points worth of models and random abilities and the sacrifice of a virgin on a blue moon..... You get the point.

[Defenestratus]

That's a bit harsh. Yes Eldar use synergy, but equally they employ specialist roles. Therefore it is not unfair to say that a specialist assault unit should be able to destroy other assault units on its own, otherwise where is the specialisation? What is the point?
And it doesn't matter a jot if a Banshee costs 1pt per model if you expect them to require how many other points worth of models and random abilities and the sacrifice of a virgin on a blue moon..... You get the point.

Why should banshees get grenades when Warp Talons don't?

[Mkvenner]

They're not meant to stand alone! Do you even PLAY eldar?

Do you understand how each unit is supposed to support each other?

Because the way you're whinging about banshees I just don't think you do.

Even with support they can barely do their job. Their damage output is rather low and targeted only at MEQ, against they are still mediocre including Doom (which you have to roll for). On top of that, they have little to no survivability in or out of combat.

At least Striking Scorpions come with Stealth, can Infiltrate, and have a 3+.

[SeekingOne]

Heavy weapons much cheaper accross all units, particularly war walkers and vypers. Big plus.
Did anyone share some info on the heavy weapons prices already? And where exactly? :)

[eldargal]

Where did I say stand alone? I know how eldar units have to support each other, the problem is there are better tools for the job in every respect to Banshees. Scorpions, Harlequins, Wraithblades will all be better in whatever role because the Banshee unit is simply underpowered. You can even get their Mask debuff by taking Jain Zar or an autarch with the mask who can perform other roles and gives army wide boosts.

[Learn2Eel]

Some new stuff;
Dark Reapers ignore cover saves provided by Jink.
No crew for the support platforms in Guardian squads, meaning any Guardian can fire them now.
5 point Starcannons!
Nightspinner has a Torrent fire-mode now.

Warlocks with Conceal (Shrouded) as a Primaris power joining Guardian/Jetbike Guardian squads is groovy for only ~30 points.

Illic has Hatred and Preferred Enemy (Necrons), and has Shrouded plus the super Infiltrate. If he can join units (which I assume he can), he will be a monster. He infiltrates anywhere he wants, except impassable terrain.
Outflanking Rangers/Pathfinders "don't scatter" within 6" of Illic provided all models in the unit are placed in that bubble. This could be a hint that he isn't an independent character, as why wouldn't you just Infiltrate them with him?

[Defenestratus]

Where did I say stand alone? I know how eldar units have to support each other, the problem is there are better tools for the job in every respect to Banshees. Scorpions, Harlequins, Wraithblades will all be better in whatever role because the Banshee unit is simply underpowered. You can even get their Mask debuff by taking Jain Zar or an autarch with the mask who can perform other roles and gives army wide boosts.

They're also cheaper than the other units (although admittedly they should probably be the same cost as a DA)

[Mkvenner]

Illic has Hatred and Preferred Enemy (Necrons), and has Shrouded plus the super Infiltrate. If he can join units (which I assume he can), he will be a monster. He infiltrates anywhere he wants, except impassable terrain.
Outflanking Rangers/Pathfinders "don't scatter" within 6" of Illic provided all models in the unit are placed in that bubble. This could be a hint that he isn't an independent character, as why wouldn't you just Infiltrate them with him?

Now put him in a unit of 10 Wraithguard with either weapons and park them on the side of your enemies line in cover. BOOM. Could even put a Spiritseer in there as well, or use it as a delivery system for Karandras.

Combined with some Rangers infiltrating and Striking Scorpions you can be in someone's face very fast. That's without adding long ranged support units like Dark Reapers, War Walkers, double Scatter Laser Wraithlords, or a Wraithknight.

[eldargal]

They're also cheaper than the other units (although admittedly they should probably be the same cost as a DA)
They aren't cheap enough. Make them Troops annd 12 points and maybe they would have use even if it wasn't very lore friendly. As it stands they lost grenades, have a greatly reduced Banshee Mask and got a lot faster for a loss of one point. Meh. If they get grenades back in a FAQ then they could be useful in certain roles though. Not holding out much hope.

[Gwyidion]

Some new stuff;
Dark Reapers ignore cover saves provided by Jink.
No crew for the support platforms in Guardian squads, meaning any Guardian can fire them now.
5 point Starcannons!
Nightspinner has a Torrent fire-mode now.

Warlocks with Conceal (Shrouded) as a Primaris power joining Guardian/Jetbike Guardian squads is groovy for only ~30 points.

Illic has Hatred and Preferred Enemy (Necrons), and has Shrouded plus the super Infiltrate. If he can join units (which I assume he can), he will be a monster. He infiltrates anywhere he wants, except impassable terrain.
Outflanking Rangers/Pathfinders "don't scatter" within 6" of Illic provided all models in the unit are placed in that bubble. This could be a hint that he isn't an independent character, as why wouldn't you just Infiltrate them with him?

Any word on the cost of EMLs in guardian squads, which squads warlocks can join? I haven't seen that information yet.

[Learn2Eel]

For maximum troll, I may consider using Illic with Wraithguard wielding D-Scythes and Karandras with Wraithguard wielding Wraithcannons in the same army list....would absolutely annihilate two units on the first turn. Would be funny as hell.

[Learn2Eel]

Any word on the cost of EMLs in guardian squads, which squads warlocks can join? I haven't seen that information yet.

Warlocks can only join Guardians, Guardian Jetbikes and one or two others....no Aspects or Wraith units unfortunately.
Not sure on the EMLs, but apparently heavy weapons of all kinds are much cheaper across the whole codex. Starcannons are 5 points in at least one case.

[Defenestratus]

For maximum troll, I may consider using Illic with Wraithguard wielding D-Scythes and Karandras with Wraithguard wielding Wraithcannons in the same army list....would absolutely annihilate two units on the first turn. Would be funny as hell.

I think we really need to wait before we consider this combination - I don't see the "infiltrate without restrictions" applying to any unit other than rangers/pathfinders personally.

[Gwyidion]

Well, that sucks. Because no 2+sv on wraith units. The pastebin translation list has that as an option.

Edit - did rangers lose their AP1 on 6-to-hit special sauce? Would assume they did @ 60 for 5.

[Mkvenner]

Now put him in a unit of 10 Wraithguard with either weapons and park them on the side of your enemies line in cover. BOOM. Could even put a Spiritseer in there as well, or use it as a delivery system for Karandras.

Combined with some Rangers infiltrating and Striking Scorpions you can be in someone's face very fast. That's without adding long ranged support units like Dark Reapers, War Walkers, double Scatter Laser Wraithlords, or a Wraithknight.


For maximum troll, I may consider using Illic with Wraithguard wielding D-Scythes and Karandras with Wraithguard wielding Wraithcannons in the same army list....would absolutely annihilate two units on the first turn. Would be funny as hell.

Already got you covered. (;

EDIT- Just noticed you meant infiltrating another with Karandras. Touche.

[IronZOGZ]

I feel like we need to reset the tone in this thread -

There is a great deal to process from this rules leak - some good, some bad - but instead of thinking about this as a "tweak" or an "update" lets talk about this like a brand new army we've never seen before. 6th is a different game than 5th, as the books released so far have shown. To phrase this in terms of our xenos "friends" (erm...): Let's not complain our Railguns are down in strength from 10 - rather, let's be stoked we have a Strength 8 AP 1 gun with functionally unlimited range and the potential for either Skyfire or Interceptor. Sweet!

Our base troop choices - Guardians, Dire Avengers, and Rangers - are all solid for their cost and accomplish different tasks. Guardians have a great stat line for 9 pts a model, and can bring a heavy weapon that can move and shoot with BS4. Cool! Dire Avengers can have a baller Exarch that will carve up Aspiring Champions in challenges, and the unit has RendLite at 18" with an Assault 2 gun - not bad for 13 a model. Mix in that both of these units can Run/Shoot or Shoot/Run and you have some cool, albeit limited, tactical choices.

Wraith units look awesome. They are tough. They have cool weapons. Wraithlords are 130? Damn! Give him some bright lances and punch some holds in things that will struggle just to wound him once. Wraithknights have Suncannons. What. Those are amazing. What is the range? 60"? Wild!

Dude! Like 90% of the new psychic powers are sweet! And only Eldar can have them! Guide is 24 inches?!. Pffff Libby's can keep Prescience - I'll just Guide my unit across the table. No big.

<----- I know, this is patronizing, but I just want to illustrate the value of perspective. If you want to field something, ****ing do it. This book will have tools to keep things alive and get them where you want them to go. No, it's not always ideal (I agree about the Banshee situation - it's a bummer the girls didn't seem to get the toys they want), but we can make it work. Because this is a game we play for fun. Make it fun! I'm bringing Axeblades because they look so. freaking. cool. and my buddy and I want to duel them vs his Lychguard (damn, those are bad - you guys want to see a unit not worth taking? Lychguard). Will they get to combat? Sometimes. S5 T6 with axes and a 4++ is nada to sneer at. Planning to hook them up with one of my trusty Ulthwe Seers and see how Warlocks with powers will work in this new edition.

Let's play some 40k people. Saturday we get the book we've been looking forward to for years. Wait three more days.

[Koremu]

Strikes me that the synergistic effect to be used is between Eldar Snipers (Pinning) and Howling Banshees.

[D6Damager]

Well, that sucks. Because no 2+sv on wraith units. The pastebin translation list has that as an option.

Edit - did rangers lose their AP1 on 6-to-hit special sauce? Would assume they did @ 60 for 5.

Spiritseers can still join, are still lvl 2 psykers, and I think they can choose from Runes of Battle and Telepathy.

[deinol]

So far the majority of the "new info" comes from a single, unverified source. (Another poster saying yup, that's true isn't verification.) So my current attitude is: "pics or you're just trolling 4chan".

It feels way too much like WD info mixed with a tweaked 4e list to be probably. Particularly Shadowseers going back to an old version of their power.

[Learn2Eel]

Going off of Minsc's hints;

War Walkers are 60 base now.
Bright Lances are 5 points each.
Starcannons are 5 points each.
I can only assume the same is true of Scatter Lasers (or they are free).
Their guns are the same as before - paired up, no twin-linking.
With BS4 and 5+ invulnerable saves base.
Wow!

@deinol They are true from what I have seen with my own two eyes.

[IronZOGZ]

(deleted - this was a duplicate)

[IronZOGZ]

Well, that sucks. Because no 2+sv on wraith units. The pastebin translation list has that as an option.


I believe he was referencing the Runes of ...Warlock... power that gives either a +1 to AS as a Blessing or -1 to AS as a Malediction

[Gwyidion]

Going off of Minsc's hints;

War Walkers are 60 base now.
Bright Lances are 5 points each.
Starcannons are 5 points each.
I can only assume the same is true of Scatter Lasers (or they are free).
Their guns are the same as before - paired up, no twin-linking.
With BS4 and 5+ invulnerable saves base.
Wow!

@deinol They are true from what I have seen with my own two eyes.

Holy ****. wow. 5pt BS4 brightlances.

Warwalkers are a good example of this codex overall.

"Wow! Some cool changes. Oh. They're still heavy support. ****".

Hey Learn2 - any word on rangers special AP1 on 6-to-hit? is it gone?

[Learn2Eel]

Sounds like it is, yeah. It does suck.
Pathfinders have a 5+ Precision Shot though.

[Gwyidion]

Sounds like it is, yeah. It does suck.
Pathfinders have a 5+ Precision Shot though.

Thats unfortunate. Still, at that cost, its a good value. Doom still works.

Checked the pastebin info - Spiritseers CAN roll on runes of battle (warlock table), are ML2, Ld9. So, you can get the +1 AS power on wraithguard. ANY warlock or spiritseer can reduce the AS of a nearby 2+ unit to 3+. Logically, this allows the wraithguards +1 S AP3 swords to deny armor saves to AS2+ units, unless that is specifically disallowed.

Another question, and i won't promise it is the last - are hagun var's (witchblades) unchanged?

[sephiroth0050]

I guess vectored engines are good on warwalkers, but isn't every other important vehicle gun mounted on a turret, so facing is irrelevant to shooting anyway?

Oh, i guess for flyers....?

Dont use a lot of vehicles...

Also - whats with the one use only stuff? How lame is "one use only" on a 35 pt upgrade??

I wonder if in the translation One use maybe once per turn?

[Nx2]

@deinol: My hobby store also has the codex and i can confirm that raziels list from 4chan is correct. The only mistake i remember is that you still get one attack with the grace exarch power, not 0, as raziel said. here and there, there might be some vagaries in his list, but overall, its correct.

[Learn2Eel]

They are the same as the ones in the rulebook, so S:user Fleshbane, Armourbane. However, Eldrad's in particular is AP3 and is a force weapon.

[IronZOGZ]

My money is on "once per turn" - no way they have such a simple task executable once per game. Chaos can take a familiar that allows them to re-roll every Psychic test - no way Kelly gave Farseers a nerf that bad if he wrote such a similar rule with fewer constraints so recently.

[deinol]

@deinol They are true from what I have seen with my own two eyes.

No offense, but pics or you're trolling.

Seriously guys, the early WD leaks came with pics. Even one blurry codex pic would add a lot more credibility.

[Learn2Eel]

No offense, but pics or you're trolling.

Seriously guys, the early WD leaks came with pics. Even one blurry codex pic would add a lot more credibility.

No offence, but do you think I'm stupid? Even if I could post pictures, I wouldn't. I'm not going to endanger either my or Bigred's website.

You don't have to believe me, and I won't blame you. But I can say with validity that what we have seen so far is very accurate.

+++Bigred Mod Voice+++
Your prudence is appreciated Brother-Captain

[wayne williams]

this is probably the wrong place to ask but while we are discussing elder units and there rules. what do people think about the forgeworld shadow spectres are they actually usable/ worthwile . I just started painting some as they look nice but not sure if theyl ever get feilded except as proxy figures.

back on topick its nice to see the elder get some love at last planning on converting some shining spears to back up my wraithguard when I get them.

[DrLove42]

I think i'm going to miss Pathfinders getting butt tons of AP1, then Rending as well....

Ah well, nominating on 5+ is pretty sweet.

[Caitsidhe]

No offense, but pics or you're trolling.

Seriously guys, the early WD leaks came with pics. Even one blurry codex pic would add a lot more credibility.

Learn2Eel doesn't lie. If he says he saw it, I consider it verified.

[Gwyidion]

12 point BS4 snipers with stealth isn't bad either. I'll be taking 2x5 - at least.

There are plenty of things to gripe about. Especially with specific units like banshees and autarchs. But other units got undeniable upgrades.

[Caitsidhe]

Of course if it is true that they are releasing TWO books for Eldar (as I suspect they will go back and do for the other books out so far), another $50.00 will get you guys the things you are irritated not to have. I expect Craftworlds will open up assault units with grenades, just as I expect a later Traitor Legions books to open up Plague Marine Terminators. :D Consider the two book Eldar thing a "test" for Games Workshop to see if they can actually get us to pay $100.00 to get everything a single faction needs. :)

[D6Damager]

I think i'm going to miss Pathfinders getting butt tons of AP1, then Rending as well....

Ah well, nominating on 5+ is pretty sweet.

Eldar Sniper Rifle was still listed under their gear so it still may have special rules beyond the normal sniper rifle.

[Learn2Eel]

this is probably the wrong place to ask but while we are discussing elder units and there rules. what do people think about the forgeworld shadow spectres are they actually usable/ worthwile . I just started painting some as they look nice but not sure if theyl ever get feilded except as proxy figures.

back on topick its nice to see the elder get some love at last planning on converting some shining spears to back up my wraithguard when I get them.

I've not seen much on them, but from what I can tell, they make for an effective anti-infantry unit at longer ranges than Warp Spiders - both of which are Jetpack Infantry.

[Bitrider]

So the bright side is that my favourite all-female unit is maybe situationally useful in a support capacity, wonderful.:p Maybe they can have a bake sale to help boost morale! (this is me on a silly rant, not responding to anyone else)

Pretty sure you get the merit badge decals when you do. :)

[Mkvenner]

So if a Warp Spider unit were to Deep Strike in, could they theortically shoot, run, and then warp jump away in the assault phase? That's pretty powerful.

[Learn2Eel]

So if a Warp Spider unit were to Deep Strike in, could they theortically shoot, run, and then warp jump away in the assault phase? That's pretty powerful.

Yep!

[Mkvenner]

That's an average 10" move after deep striking! Did they confirm they fired flame templates or 4th edition 1 shot deathspinners?

[Deadlift]

Learn2Eel doesn't lie. If he says he saw it, I consider it verified.

Absolutely this ^. I have always found his writing completely unbiased and reasonable too, unlike some of the whiners who have been deconstructing the Eldar Codex before we actually have it. 200 pages plus of this makes hard reading. I look forward to your codex review L2E where I know you will reviews units and how to get the best from them rather than just saying "they are ****"

[Gwyidion]

According to the pastebin info - the warp spiders main weapon is rumored as S6 ap- R12 assault 2 monofilament (6-to-wound = autowound + ap1, +1 S if I<3 or nonexistent).

Hawks get a similar situation, except they do not scatter, have s3 ap5 assault 3, a better pie plate...

Oh, and they both decreased in cost. Hawks by like 25%.

Good fast attack units? WHAT IS THIS?

[Learn2Eel]

Absolutely this ^. I have always found his writing completely unbiased and reasonable too, unlike some of the whiners who have been deconstructing the Eldar Codex before we actually have it. 200 pages plus of this makes hard reading. I look forward to your codex review L2E where I know you will reviews units and how to get the best from them rather than just saying "they are ****"

Cheers :) I hope it doesn't disappoint!


According to the pastebin info - the warp spiders main weapon is rumored as S6 ap- R12 assault 2 monofilament (6-to-wound = autowound + ap1, +1 S if I<3 or nonexistent).

Hawks get a similar situation, except they do not scatter, have s3 ap5 assault 3, a better pie plate...

Oh, and they both decreased in cost. Hawks by like 25%.

Good fast attack units? WHAT IS THIS?

I know right! Very cool stuff.

On heavy weapons, they all cost about the same price as I listed earlier, with the exception of the Shuriken Cannon (cheaper) and the Eldar Missile Launcher (more expensive). You get discounts if you come stock with Shuriken Cannons/other heavy weapons, hence why War Walkers only pay 5 points for Scatter Lasers/Bright Lances/Starcannons, whereas Wraithlords might pay 10-15. All up, massive improvement there.

[Koremu]

That Warp Spider weapon will be STR7 against vehicles. Deep-Striking Plasma-equivalent Jet Packers. Unpleasant.

[deinol]

No offence, but do you think I'm stupid? Even if I could post pictures, I wouldn't. I'm not going to endanger either my or Bigred's website.

You don't have to believe me, and I won't blame you. But I can say with validity that what we have seen so far is very accurate.

There's a reason pics are uploaded anonymously to 4chan.

Others are vouching for you, so that helps. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, I'm new to this community and from my perspective it's very hard to tell who is reliable and who isn't.

[Gwyidion]

That Warp Spider weapon will be STR7 against vehicles. Deep-Striking Plasma-equivalent Jet Packers. Unpleasant.

Better than plasma - assault 2, no chance of gets hot!.

not clear if their rending-lite is to-wound only, or if it triggers on armor pen. (info has to-wound, but I always mistrust small details like that)

[Learn2Eel]

There's a reason pics are uploaded anonymously to 4chan.

Others are vouching for you, so that helps. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, I'm new to this community and from my perspective it's very hard to tell who is reliable and who isn't.

Hey, no worries. You didn't offend me in the slightest :)

Cool thing about all these reserves also is that we still have reserves manipulation through Autarchs. I'm thinking I might start Swooping Hawks on the board if I go first to Ascend on the first turn and guarantee coming down on turn two.

[Carey Yesoob]

Warp Spiders are 19pts per model with a stat line of WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 LD9 SV3+ with the special rules Ancient Doom and Battle Focus.

[DrLove42]

Nearly everything suggests rending-lite doesn't get the rending bonus against armour. It just makes you AP2, so they're more likely to blow up if you do pen

[Gwyidion]

Cheers :) I hope it doesn't disappoint!



I know right! Very cool stuff.

On heavy weapons, they all cost about the same price as I listed earlier, with the exception of the Shuriken Cannon (cheaper) and the Eldar Missile Launcher (more expensive). You get discounts if you come stock with Shuriken Cannons/other heavy weapons, hence why War Walkers only pay 5 points for Scatter Lasers/Bright Lances/Starcannons, whereas Wraithlords might pay 10-15. All up, massive improvement there.

IF wraithlords pay 15 points for a BL, that means they can get two brightlances for 5 points more total than they used to get an EML and a BL. And they get an extra attack.

basically a big upgrade.


Nearly everything suggests rending-lite doesn't get the rending bonus against armour. It just makes you AP2, so they're more likely to blow up if you do pen

Except thats bladestorm, and the warp spiders rule is monofilament, and is said to be AP1, not AP2. Why be AP1 if it doesn't work on vehicles?

[Learn2Eel]

It was mentioned a few times as "wound roll" for monofilament. Annoying, but hey, deep-striking behind vehicles and unloading into them with massed S7 will be great, especially when an average 10-11" move out of danger follows!

Oh, by the way, Wraithknight's invulnerable save with the shield is 5+, but every successful invulnerable save with it causes Blind tests on enemies nearby.
Autarchs add or subtract one to reserve rolls after rolling for each individual unit; i.e., +1 for my Swooping Hawks to come on, and then -1 for my Warp Spiders to come on, during the same turn, if you so please.

Well it is 4am here, and I have to get up at 9pm to head into my local GW store. Goodnight all, have fun!

[Caitsidhe]

Yep. The way I picture it is they released Tau whose chief vulnerability lies in spammed, deep struck units. Then they released Eldar who seem particularly strong with deep striking units that can unload with great accuracy Flamers, high strength weapons, and so on etc.. It is all part of their continued march toward trying to make you take allies.

Avoiding allies makes things EXTREMELY rock, paper, scissors in result. With allies, you can actually build effective all comer lists. I'm not pushing allies mind you, just pointing out the obvious strength of Tau followed by an army with an obvious strength in STICKING IT TO TAU... right behind. :D

[Mkvenner]

Yep. The way I picture it is they released Tau whose chief vulnerability lies in spammed, deep struck units. Then they released Eldar who seem particularly strong with deep striking units that can unload with great accuracy Flamers, high strength weapons, and so on etc.. It is all part of their continued march toward trying to make you take allies.

Avoiding allies makes things EXTREMELY rock, paper, scissors in result. With allies, you can actually build effective all comer lists. I'm not pushing allies mind you, just pointing out the obvious strength of Tau followed by an army with an obvious strength in STICKING IT TO TAU... right behind. :D

Reapers and Broadsides, Warp Spiders and Pathfinders, Wraithguard/Jebikes and Sniper Kroot, Fire Dragons and Riptides, Commander and Farseer/Spiritseer.

It's delicious. Tau Empire is superior to Dark Eldar battle brothers at this point. Space Marines might have some decent things, but Tau Empire gets a lot of dakka for a reasonable price.

[D6Damager]

Reapers and Broadsides, Warp Spiders and Pathfinders, Wraithguard/Jebikes and Sniper Kroot, Fire Dragons and Riptides, Commander and Farseer/Spiritseer.

It's delicious. Tau Empire is superior to Dark Eldar battle brothers at this point. Space Marines might have some decent things, but Tau Empire gets a lot of dakka for a reasonable price.

Tau also have intercept which seems to be lacking from the Eldar spoiler.

[Defenestratus]

Tau also have intercept which seems to be lacking from the Eldar spoiler.

I noticed that as well.

Disturbing no doubt as I'd expect that super-agile space elves to be able to react better than most.

[Mkvenner]

Tau also have intercept which seems to be lacking from the Eldar spoiler.

We have a stellar AA fighter and Dark Reapers can get AA missiles. So we're not horribly lacking, but Tau Empire will definitely shore up that weakness too.

[deinol]

Tau also have intercept which seems to be lacking from the Eldar spoiler.

Perhaps Dark Reapers are the new anti-flyer? Targeter negates speed saves and they can get Skyfire missiles, right? Do they get interceptor too?

[DrLove42]

Tau also have intercept which seems to be lacking from the Eldar spoiler.


I noticed that as well.

Disturbing no doubt as I'd expect that super-agile space elves to be able to react better than most.

I was expecting a physic power to grant Interceptor. The Farseer equivilent of going "Hey - some dudes are going teleport in there in a minute. Get ready!"

[Caitsidhe]

Tau also have intercept which seems to be lacking from the Eldar spoiler.

They do but that is why I point out their weakness is SPAMMED deep strike. Their "Interceptor" is on limited units and they aren't inexpensive units at that. A sizeable number of incoming deep strikes that can reposition themselves to use their templates just about excecutes Tau with extreme prejudice. Moreover, Eldar have the tools required to kill the interceptor units prior to the second turn if so inclined.

[Kyban]

We have a stellar AA fighter and Dark Reapers can get AA missiles. So we're not horribly lacking, but Tau Empire will definitely shore up that weakness too.

We shouldn't need allies, we are ELDAR! (with suitable Eldar arrogance)
Besides, we won't be able to afford them points wise... :(

[Defenestratus]

Wondering if that scatter laser lock will work whilst firing on overwatch.

If so, then hitting with a 6 on your scatter lasers then following that up with 20 bladestorming twin linked shots might not be that bad.

[Gwyidion]

Wondering if that scatter laser lock will work whilst firing on overwatch.

If so, then hitting with a 6 on your scatter lasers then following that up with 20 bladestorming twin linked shots might not be that bad.

combine with 24" guide from a farseer... TL BS4 should abound for eldar.

[cebalrai]

Do Swooping Hawks still have the thingy to auto-hit vehicles?

Do they still have a haywire grenade each?

Can they assault flyers?

[Gwyidion]

Do Swooping Hawks still have the thingy to auto-hit vehicles?

Do they still have a haywire grenade each?

Can they assault flyers?

I believe, based on reading the information from others, the answers are:
1) No.
2) No.
3) No.

[D6Damager]

We shouldn't need allies, we are ELDAR! (with suitable Eldar arrogance)
Besides, we won't be able to afford them points wise... :(

There's plenty of Skyfire (Crimson Hunter, Dark Reapers, War Walkers...possibly the missile launcher on the guardian platform as well) just didn't notice any Interceptor...different rules.

[Mkvenner]

combine with 24" guide from a farseer... TL BS4 should abound for eldar.

I would rather try and get Foreboding on a Farseer for that. Then the Scatter Laser works as intended.

[cebalrai]

I believe, based on reading the information from others, the answers are:
1) No.
2) No.
3) No.


Okay so they have the grenade pack when they deep strike which is pretty solid now. Then what do they do?

[SeekingOne]

IF wraithlords pay 15 points for a BL, that means they can get two brightlances for 5 points more total than they used to get an EML and a BL. And they get an extra attack.

basically a big upgrade.

Well, there's an even better thing - leaked rules suggest that a WL can have 2 ranged weapons AND a ghostglaive. If true, that would actually make it a seriously flexible support unit. Still don't agree with its cost though :p

[Nx2]

iirc from my reading the codex at a store today, only the dark reaper exarch has aa missiles. hawks still have haywire grenades. Scatter laser laserlock only works on a per model base, so: no, you cant use it for guardian squads, only the model firing the weapon gets tl. btw, dark reapers are 30 points now, but giving them starstrike missiles (s8ap3, pinning) costs 8pts per model. warwalkers though can get aa missiles, but they are pretty expensive, dont recall correctly, i think it was as much as old wraithlord cost without anything, or maybe 10 points less.

@seeking one: thats true, and the wraithglaive is so cheap, its almost a no-brainer.

[Gwyidion]

Okay so they have the grenade pack when they deep strike which is pretty solid now. Then what do they do?

They deepstrike without scattering. Their pie plate denies cover, they have Assault 3 weapons....

insanely mobile, safe, anti-light-infantry. Perfect harrassment, basically.

And, way cheaper.

[DrLove42]

Well, there's an even better thing - leaked rules suggest that a WL can have 2 ranged weapons AND a ghostglaive. If true, that would actually make it a seriously flexible support unit. Still don't agree with its cost though :p

if thats true, i need to fit Bayonets to all my guys guns

And the cost increase is acceptable if the cost of the guns has gone down by that much

[DarkLink]

We have a stellar AA fighter Considering it's AV10 all around, I wouldn't call it stellar. A quad gun on the ADL will kill it on average dice with Interceptor before it ever does anything.

[HERO]

Considering it's AV10 all around, I wouldn't call it stellar. A quad gun on the ADL will kill it on average dice with Interceptor before it ever does anything.

Yup.

That's not popcorn I hear, that's the sound of your paper airplane exploding in midair.

[Defenestratus]

Yup.

That's not popcorn I hear, that's the sound of your paper airplane exploding in midair.

Not mine.

Mine have a 2+ Evade save for LESS than the overpriced bullocks that GW is foisting on us :P

[DrLove42]

And considering any quad gun has a 50% chance of having a 2+ cover save in turn 1 (night fighting + defence line) you've not got much chance of taking it out before your first 66% chance of your flier turning up.

I can see the defence line quad gun going up in points dramatically in 7th edition :P

[Souba]

ah yeah guys. im back from work and post that stuff.

so here is the missing link:

banshee mask: a unit assaulted by models with with banshee masks has -5 initiative. (min 1)

eldar jetibke: a unit with eldar jetbike has a 3+ armor save with twin linked shuricen catapults. (no T increase)

ghost helm: when suffering a perils of the warp the user can sacrifice a unspend warpcharge to ignore the wound

harlequin belt: units do not get slowed by terrain

khaindar targeting: enemys dont get jink saves against shooting from units with khaindartargetting

power shield : 4+ invul

falcon wings: a unit with this upgrade counts as jump infantry.

falcon grenade launcher:
if a unit deepstrikes and has no mishap (lol) can one model can use a special shooting attack in its movement phase. after firing the grenade launcehr the unit may still shoot in the shooting phase, if possible the unit has to fire on the same target:

24" s 4 ap 4 assault 1 ignores cover, grenade shower

grenade shower: no line of sight needed. if the unit has at least 6 falcon grenade launchers it is a larg blast template. if there are less grenade launchers in the unit it is a small blast instead.

mandiblaster: a modell with mandiblasters automatically causes a s 3 hit at initiative 10. wich cannot be modified by any means. in a challenge this has to go against the challenger.

flickerfield: 5+

scatterfield: 5+ invul. if the model passes a invulnerable save all units (friend and foe) within 6" that are not locked in close combat are counted as having been hit by a weapon with the blending special rule. a unit that passes the test once, is for the remainder of that phase immune to blinding.

ah yeah acrobatics from banshees grants +3" on run rolls. if the unit consists entirely of banshees.

[HERO]

eldar jetibke: a unit with eldar jetbike has a 3+ armor save with twin linked shuricen catapults. (no T increase)

LOL WHAT?

Double check please? Jet bikes no longer give the rider +1T? What nonsense is this?

[cebalrai]

And considering any quad gun has a 50% chance of having a 2+ cover save in turn 1 (night fighting + defence line) you've not got much chance of taking it out before your first 66% chance of your flier turning up.

I can see the defence line quad gun going up in points dramatically in 7th edition :P


Quad guns are about to get a rude awakening from cheap Ranger snipage though.

[AttemptedM]

Banshees. Compare to similar units like wyches, daemonettes and death cult assassins. The first 2 are cheaper daemonettes get the same run rule. All three have an invuln of some sort. Yes, the first 2 lack AP weapons, but are only 9 ppm and one has 2 base attacks and rending and the other has combat drugs, plasma grenades and can get haywire grenades. Dca are allegedly one point more expensive have their choice of 2 power weapons and can get grenades plus other supporting squad members. There are probably other similar choices, but of those 4 banshees are the worst by a drastic margin. I'd settle for parity, not asking for OP.

Aircraft. The invention of the aegis line and quad gun being available to every army (except nids) ruined AV10 flyers unless you could cheaply (around 100 points each) field at least 3 of them. Crons air survives it with sheer numbers.

Other then those 3 units this could be pretty sweet. Well. That and the loss of runes of warding.

Edit: forgot. All of those are troops or can be made troops

[Koremu]

eldar jetibke: a unit with eldar jetbike has a 3+ armor save with twin linked shuricen catapults. (no T increase)


Is that "specifically notes that there is no T increase", or just doesn't mention a T increase at all?

Because the "Armoured Steed" special rule that gives the +1 T is part of the default Jetbike rules, so unless it's specifically removed for Eldar Jetbikes, they will get it.

[DrLove42]

Changes to Mandiblasters make me sad, scorpions losing 1 attack with decent weapons, but gaining one at I10 but S3....

[Defenestratus]

ah yeah guys. im back from work and post that stuff.

so here is the missing link:

banshee mask: a unit assaulted by models with with banshee masks has -5 initiative. (min 1)

eldar jetibke: a unit with eldar jetbike has a 3+ armor save with twin linked shuricen catapults. (no T increase)

ghost helm: when suffering a perils of the warp the user can sacrifice a unspend warpcharge to ignore the wound

harlequin belt: units do not get slowed by terrain

khaindar targeting: enemys dont get jink saves against shooting from units with khaindartargetting

power shield : 4+ invul

falcon wings: a unit with this upgrade counts as jump infantry.

falcon grenade launcher:
if a unit deepstrikes and has no mishap (lol) can one model can use a special shooting attack in its movement phase. after firing the grenade launcehr the unit may still shoot in the shooting phase, if possible the unit has to fire on the same target:

24" s 4 ap 4 assault 1 ignores cover, grenade shower

grenade shower: no line of sight needed. if the unit has at least 6 falcon grenade launchers it is a larg blast template. if there are less grenade launchers in the unit it is a small blast instead.

mandiblaster: a modell with mandiblasters automatically causes a s 3 hit at initiative 10. wich cannot be modified by any means. in a challenge this has to go against the challenger.

flickerfield: 5+

scatterfield: 5+ invul. if the model passes a invulnerable save all units (friend and foe) within 6" that are not locked in close combat are counted as having been hit by a weapon with the blending special rule. a unit that passes the test once, is for the remainder of that phase immune to blinding.

ah yeah acrobatics from banshees grants +3" on run rolls. if the unit consists entirely of banshees.

Yeah - none of those are particularly exciting or get me to say "wow, I gotta have that"

[Mkvenner]

Considering it's AV10 all around, I wouldn't call it stellar. A quad gun on the ADL will kill it on average dice with Interceptor before it ever does anything.

That's why we have so many Infiltrating and Deep Striking units to clear that thing before your Flyer gets on.

Rangers, Striking Scorpions, Karandras/Illic with Wraithguard, Warp Spiders, and Swooping Hawks.

It can be done. Just have to think like an Eldar.

[HERO]

Minsc who has the book replied:

To Jetbikes:
5 points cheaper, and they still give +1T.

[Souba]

there is no mentioning in the T increase and no saying you dont get it.. there is just nothing to it. so maybe its in the bike special rule of the brb?

[Koremu]

Minsc who has the book replied:

To Jetbikes:
5 points cheaper, and they still give +1T.


there is no mentioning in the T increase and no saying you dont get it.. there is just nothing to it. so maybe its in the bike special rule of the brb?

Right, thought that might be it. Not mentioned in the codex entry because it's part of the main rules (page 45 of the BRB, FWIW)

[Souba]

ah okay, thanks

[Koremu]

You gave some people heart attacks saying Eldar Jetbikes were T3! :eek:

[Nx2]

Scorpions lose an attack at S4 but they get a _hit_ at S3 Ini10 instead. That probably is a buff.

Regarding Jetbikes and Toughness: They get 3+ Save, tl shuricats and eldar jetbike rule, which is in the rulebook and gives +1T, so no change.

[eris]

Hmm.. no ability to give a seer council a wave serpent it seems. Kind of a blow to running a foot council as they'll have to run across the board now.

I'm assuming there's no word on whether we can actually cast powers while inside a transport now?

[cebalrai]

Hmm.. no ability to give a seer council a wave serpent it seems. Kind of a blow to running a foot council as they'll have to run across the board now.

I'm assuming there's no word on whether we can actually cast powers while inside a transport now?

A Falcon I guess.

Seems like an oversight though.

[DarkLink]

That's why we have so many Infiltrating and Deep Striking units to clear that thing before your Flyer gets on.

Rangers, Striking Scorpions, Karandras/Illic with Wraithguard, Warp Spiders, and Swooping Hawks.

It can be done. Just have to think like an Eldar.

Deepstrikers can't do it, because they come in the same time as the Flyer. You'd be relying on rolling reserve dice just right. I would never rely on assault units to do it, either, because your opponent will get one turn of shooting at least against them. And frankly, for all the excitement about Stealth and stuff, it's really not hard to kill a squad of Striking Scorpions. Especially if they bum-rush your lines. Do Rangers ignore cover now?

Not saying it can't be done, just that don't get too excited over a glass cannon. Something that fragile with a widespread and obvious counter (ADL is far from the only Interceptor in the game, heck, a Storm Raven will bolter the Crimson Hunter to death if you come in after it) probably won't be fantastic.

[cebalrai]

Deepstrikers can't do it, because they come in the same time as the Flyer. You'd be relying on rolling reserve dice just right. I would never rely on assault units to do it, either, because your opponent will get one turn of shooting at least against them. And frankly, for all the excitement about Stealth and stuff, it's really not hard to kill a squad of Striking Scorpions. Especially if they bum-rush your lines. Do Rangers ignore cover now?

Not saying it can't be done, just that don't get too excited over a glass cannon. Something that fragile with a widespread and obvious counter (ADL is far from the only Interceptor in the game, heck, a Storm Raven will bolter the Crimson Hunter to death if you come in after it) probably won't be fantastic.


Sounds like a job for autarch reserve manipulation.

[Caitsidhe]

Deepstrikers can't do it, because they come in the same time as the Flyer. You'd be relying on rolling reserve dice just right.

DarkLkink is quiet correct. As someone who uses ample Drop & Pop in his list, I assure you that you aren't ever going to get rid of the Quad Gun in a reliable way with Deep Strikes before it gets to shoot at your fliers. *Short of you getting some kind of special rule which allows you to shoot at the end of the movement phase which is the same time the Interceptor fire happens. :D


I would never rely on assault units to do it, either, because your opponent will get one turn of shooting at least against them. And frankly, for all the excitement about Stealth and stuff, it's really not hard to kill a squad of Striking Scorpions. Especially if they bum-rush your lines.

Also quite true. The only way I have ever taken out a Quad Gun is by engaging it in an artillery battle where all my (Turn-1 On Board) High Strength fire started shooting at it. In general, with a 4+ save you have to shoot it with two squads of Obliterators to really be sure. :D *I'm sure you can figure out a conversion for the high strength, long range fire of your own.


Not saying it can't be done, just that don't get too excited over a glass cannon. Something that fragile with a widespread and obvious counter (ADL is far from the only Interceptor in the game, heck, a Storm Raven will bolter the Crimson Hunter to death if you come in after it) probably won't be fantastic.

Actually I was very surprised... not by the AV-10 (I expected that actually) but that it didn't come with a new rule which made it invisible to the Interceptor rule (a.k.a. Sky Phantom or something like that). I personally think it would have been Nifty... something that made it immune to Marker Lights too.

[Chronowraith]

Do Rangers ignore cover now?


Use the Reveal power (the opposite of Conceal) as it removes cover. I have no idea about the range of that power, but it could work.

[IamtheGodComplex]

Scorpions lose an attack at S4 but they get a _hit_ at S3 Ini10 instead. That probably is a buff.


It's 8.33% better against ws4/t4 assuming the squad wasn't under the effects of prescience/hatred. With rerolls to hit it's a 12.5% worse than a regular attack.

[Mkvenner]

Deepstrikers can't do it, because they come in the same time as the Flyer. You'd be relying on rolling reserve dice just right. I would never rely on assault units to do it, either, because your opponent will get one turn of shooting at least against them. And frankly, for all the excitement about Stealth and stuff, it's really not hard to kill a squad of Striking Scorpions. Especially if they bum-rush your lines. Do Rangers ignore cover now?

Not saying it can't be done, just that don't get too excited over a glass cannon. Something that fragile with a widespread and obvious counter (ADL is far from the only Interceptor in the game, heck, a Storm Raven will bolter the Crimson Hunter to death if you come in after it) probably won't be fantastic.

I hear you. I am just saying it's still a great AA option besides it's relatively low armor. With an Autarch you can add or decrease to your reserve rolls to make sure that happens, but let's be honest... Who is going to take an Autarch over a Farseer/Spiritseer, Avatar, or named character?

[D6Damager]

Use the Reveal power (the opposite of Conceal) as it removes cover. I have no idea about the range of that power, but it could work.

The wording on this was removes shrouded or gives shrouded.

[Seph V.]

Had to make it:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/56446841/Lol/I_Welcome_SS_Overlords.jpg

[Sonikgav]

That needs fixing. You seem to have put a Striking Scorpion when clearly you meant a Wraithguard.

[Power Klawz]

Manipulating reserve rolls for a reserve heavy or reliant force would go a long way to make an autarch desirable. As has been stated, slow donw your flyers arrival until anti air has been neutralize, speed up your deep striking assault units, time your flyers arrival after your enemies heldrake, get behind it and intagib it, laugh.

Also autarchs are going to be close combat monsters still. Eldar, interestingly enough, seem like they'll be the kings and queens of the stone age, err challenges. Autarchs will troll chaos lords pretty mercilessly, I foresee many warlord kills in the near future. Turn two charges with tooled up, jetbike riding autarchs supported by shining spears will probably kill everything. Not sure how long they'll laster after they kill whatever it is that you hate so much, but that thing is dead like breakfast.

[Defenestratus]

Use the Reveal power (the opposite of Conceal) as it removes cover. I have no idea about the range of that power, but it could work.

Good luck. Statistically speaking you could play up to 6 games before you roll for that power.

[Seph V.]

Autarchs will troll chaos lords pretty mercilessly, I foresee many warlord kills in the near future.

Here's a joke:
A Eldar Autarch and a Chaos Lord walk into a challenge...

http://i.imgur.com/9N6CjFg.gif

[Defenestratus]

I hear you. I am just saying it's still a great AA option besides it's relatively low armor.

No

Its just not.

I'm sorry .. but "flaming wreckage" is not a good AA option - since thats exactly what it will be 9 times out of 10 when you bring it on the board and before you can actually do anything with it.

Killing a quad gun in the first turn is not an easy button. Its not going to be easy. Relying on an Autarch to modify your roll by -1 when that quad gun is alive is simply a bandaid to a gaping wound - in so much that if you roll a 4+ you're screwed. If you don't roll a 4+, you have at least 160 points off of the table while a 50 point piece of wargear keeps you running scared.

I'm telling you people... get nightwings. Tell GW to feth off with this crappy ruleset and get stuff that actually *works*.

[SeekingOne]

Manipulating reserve rolls for a reserve heavy or reliant force would go a long way to make an autarch desirable. As has been stated, slow donw your flyers arrival until anti air has been neutralize, speed up your deep striking assault units, time your flyers arrival after your enemies heldrake, get behind it and intagib it, laugh.
Do you really think it's worthwhile?
I mean, ok, it can be done if you really absolutely want to field a Crimson Hunter and need to make some use out of it, but calling it a "good AA option" on that basis is a big stretch imho.

EDIT:

I'm telling you people... get nightwings. Tell GW to feth off with this crappy ruleset and get stuff that actually *works*.
Isn't Nightwing HP2?! :)

[Liberame]

Good luck. Statistically speaking you could play up to 6 games before you roll for that power.

can statistically have it every game since it is a primaris power for locks

[Defenestratus]

can statistically have it every game since it is a primaris power for locks

Well it still wont deny the AA gun its cover save.

[Mkvenner]

Do you really think it's worthwhile?
I mean, ok, it can be done if you really absolutely want to field a Crimson Hunter and need to make some use out of it, but calling it a "good AA option" on that basis is a big stretch imho.


I was the one that called it a good AA option. I still stand by it on the grounds of making your units work together. Yes, it's going to die. Plenty of units do. The Autarch comment was so that people could manipulate their reserves in general. Such as delaying the fighter, but bringing in all of your Deep Strikers to clear any AA obstacles.

Giving up a precious HQ slot is rough just to be able to add +1/-1 to Reserve rolls, but he can be given some neat weapons. Such as a Dark Reaper Missile Launcher. Cheep and cheerful.

Back to the Crimson Hunter, it's fine that you guys don't want to use it, but at the same time it's an option. Not the greatest, but still an option regardless.

[Defenestratus]

Isn't Nightwing HP2?!

Yes - but it also has a 2+ save while evading.

Something that saves it from AA fire everytime.

[Carstens]

Killing a quad gun as eldar:

Step 1: bring 10 rangers
Step 2: guide said rangers
step 3: shot quad gun
step 4: Profit

granted it might need 1 more wounding hit from anything to statistically remove it, but the rangers will come pretty damn close.

[Power Klawz]

Here's a joke:
A Eldar Autarch and a Chaos Lord walk into a challenge...

http://i.imgur.com/9N6CjFg.gif

Yes, exactly this. Forever.

Need to convert an autarch that looks like Loki now.

[murgel]

Well, Eldar have the ability to kill or take a quad gun in first turn.

Illic and infiltrate a nice unit of nastiness... (is it still infiltration or is this called Illictration?):rolleyes:
Get some DR in firing range. what about a jetbike squadron or, or , or ...

Any way the result is the same. A dead Quad gun. :p Or a an unmanned one... :D

[lilcanich]

Yes, exactly this. Forever.

Need to convert an autarch that looks like Loki now.

Like this guy here?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1RcvaEDhLZ0/TMTJcsv9k2I/AAAAAAAABS0/2gaKFjVFrXQ/s1600/m1420054a_99060112056_DEArchon1_873x627.jpg

[Mkvenner]

Well, Eldar have the ability to kill or take a quad gun in first turn.

Illic and infiltrate a nice unit of nastiness... (is it still infiltration or is this called Illictration?):rolleyes:
Get some DR in firing range. what about a jetbike squadron or, or , or ...

Any way the result is the same. A dead Quad gun. :p Or a an unmanned one... :D

Exactly my point. Small Wraithguard squad with D-scythes with Illic can light up the crew. Karandras can be close by with Wraithguard with Wraithcannons or Wraithblades should you want to try your hands at CC. Warp Spiders can pop in, then jump 2D6" + a rerollable D6" after they fire. Swooping Hawks can drop in an lob a Str 4 Ap4 pack and unload their lasblasters as well.

There are so many things in this book that can jump up close it's quite exciting...

[Defenestratus]

Looks like I was wrong about Illic. According to pictures of the book on 4chan, he's an IC with infiltrate special rules. This means he can infiltrate WG right up the butt of your opponent. I really don't see how this is in any way fair or right.

[Carstens]

Just having the infiltrate special rule isn't enough, he'll need one that transfers it another unit. (ICs don't join the unit until they are deployed/put in reserves, at which point infiltrate is to late)

[Defenestratus]

Just having the infiltrate special rule isn't enough, he'll need one that transfers it another unit. (ICs don't join the unit until they are deployed/put in reserves, at which point infiltrate is to late)

Silly details...

[AttemptedM]

Within a week of the new codex drop your opponents will be wise to you infiltrating flamer shenanigans (if its a real thing in the first place and doesn't get FAQd.) It will be prepared for. The real problem is AV10. Take away the quadgun. The thing is still going to live for one turn before it gets small armsed to death. In a world with divination 6's to hit are not that unreasonable. Between that and other flyers it will live for a turn max. For the price I want it to survive for a while. Lets make it 20 less points, lose one weapon and a point of ballistic skill but make all the weapons twin-linked and +1 str. Oh avid give it AV12.



Oh wait. IG have that already. It's a transport too. Dear GW, I call BS on every other flyer in the game (except the heldrake which also wins.) I seriously wouldn't pay over 90 points for any vehicle that's less then AV12. Ever.

[Sildani]

Just having the infiltrate special rule isn't enough, he'll need one that transfers it another unit. (ICs don't join the unit until they are deployed/put in reserves, at which point infiltrate is to late)

Yep. So put him with Striking Scorpions, who now have Infiltrate as an innate ability, take second turn, charge quad gun and/or crew, and annihilate them. Illic can always leave them and go on his own afterward.

[Carstens]

It's not a real thing, just got a look at his page (or a very convincing fake) and he can't infiltrate others where ever he wants. What he can do is allow outflanking rangers to arrive at his location (instead of a board edge) and units deep striking within 6inch don't scatter.

Also his shots are always precision with ap 2 distort (whatever that is) + he really really hates necrons :)

[Carstens]

Yep. So put him with Striking Scorpions, who now have Infiltrate as an innate ability, take second turn, charge quad gun and/or crew, and annihilate them. Illic can always leave them and go on his own afterward.

Isn't gonna work either, it's only himself that can be placed where he wants (so technically you could gain 3 inches or so)

[Mkvenner]

Isn't gonna work either, it's only himself that can be placed where he wants (so technically you could gain 3 inches or so)

Are you actually reading his entry verbatim right now?

[Defenestratus]

"Walker of the Hidden Path: Illic Nightspear has the Infiltrate special rule, and can be deployed anywhere on the battlefield that is outside of impassable terrain, regardless of enemy proximity. In addition, any friendly Eldar Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders that are Outflanking can choose to arrive next to Illic Nightspear when they become available. To do so, Deep Strike the unit so that it is wholly within 6" of Illic Nightspear - it does not scatter."

I'd say its wishy-washy at best as to whether or not its transferrable to another infiltrating unit.

[Carstens]

Aye, though i misread the deep striking part, thats just how you place the rangers.

[Mkvenner]

We are still in a bit of a conundrum since the Infiltrate wording means that the unit and the character can't be deployed together. Which I'll have to read it again to see the sequencing.

[Finnegan]

Quad gun is unpleasant, but come on... It has 48'' range so enemy has to place it in the middle of his lines to cover whole table, and sometimes it's problematic (terrain often blocks LOS, unless you're playing on the "IG weapon testing area" with trenches and craters only ;) ). I think flyers can benefit from cover saves (am I wrong?) and many of standard GW sceneries (basilica Administratum, Manufactorum, Sanctum Imperialis, Imperial Bastion, Shrine of Aquila, Fortress of Redemption), not to mention homemade terrains, are tall enough to give them a 4+/5+ cover save or to block LOS completly. If flyers can get upgrade that gives them +1 to cover save, it will be even better :)
Yes, lack of tall terrain pieces and/or enemy's ability to ignore cover is still deadly, but you have to deal with that (i.e. to deal with enemy quad gun in 1st turn :) )

[Defenestratus]

For a Wraithknight with scattershield and suncannon, you're going to be paying 5 pts more than for the Sanguinor.

[Koremu]

"Walker of the Hidden Path: Illic Nightspear has the Infiltrate special rule, and can be deployed anywhere on the battlefield that is outside of impassable terrain, regardless of enemy proximity. In addition, any friendly Eldar Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders that are Outflanking can choose to arrive next to Illic Nightspear when they become available. To do so, Deep Strike the unit so that it is wholly within 6" of Illic Nightspear - it does not scatter."

I'd say its wishy-washy at best as to whether or not its transferrable to another infiltrating unit.

I wouldn't say it was wishy-washy. I'd say it was pretty clear-cut; there's no mention of his ability to infiltrate regardless of proximity transferring to another unit, therefore it doesn't.

Fun idea though.

On another note, "regardless of proximity" would mean that he (just himself) could be infiltrated to start the game in close combat, yes?

[Power Klawz]

I'm pretty sure you can't deploy into close combat since it is clearly stated in the rule book that there is only one way to get into close combat, which is to charge. You can't be within 1 inch of an enemy model unless you are in close combat either, I believe that 1 inch area counts as impassible terrain otherwise.

[Koremu]

I'm pretty sure you can't deploy into close combat since it is clearly stated in the rule book that there is only one way to get into close combat, which is to charge. You can't be within 1 inch of an enemy model unless you are in close combat either, I believe that 1 inch area counts as impassible terrain otherwise.

Actually it just says that you can't move within 1" unless you are charging in the Assault Phase. It doesn't say anything about deploying there.

[Sonikgav]

Actually it just says that you can't move within 1" unless you are charging in the Assault Phase. It doesn't say anything about deploying there.

Well yes it does.

Is it the Assault Phase?
- No its Movement phase
Are you charging?
- No Im Deploying

Then GTFO from within my personal space!

[Tyrendian]

that's gonna be FAQed then... unless we're missing an existing rule ofc :-)

Also, rumor resume for me:
I actually like almost all I hear about the codex - even those things that could have gone better power-wise usually make sense, and there are enough intriguing possibilities in there to test out, so I'm not too bothered. With a few exceptions...
-Banshees: having their masks work like dirge casters would have been both useful and fluffy/keeping in line with other wargear... as it seems to stand, I don't really see myself using them much more than I do now, which is not at all sadly
-Guardians and their 12" range while going up in price - yes Bladestorm makes them decently deadly, but same points costs as Fire Warriors? really?
-and most of all, the Warlord Traits (at least those that I saw in here a few days ago... might be that's out of date - could someone maybe post them again?) seem really really boring, bland and un-fluffy, especially considering the great job GW did on the Tau ones (and Daemons from what I hear - don't have a Daemon player round here...), that's a real missed opportunity (unless again I've got some wrong ones in my head...)

[Koremu]

Well yes it does.

Is it the Assault Phase?
- No its Movement phase
Are you charging?
- No Im Deploying

Then GTFO from within my personal space!

Except it's *not* the movement phase when infiltrators deploy.

For the record, I agree that it's silly, but Rules-As-Written, there's nothing stopping him from deploying in base-to-base contact with an enemy model that I can see - especially because there is no rule in 6th edition that says a charge is the only way to initiate combat (there was in 5th, but not 6th). His rules say that he can deploy "regardless of proximity", and 0" is within that wording.

Bet you that gets Errata'd fast!

[skeletoro]

OK, so... what do we know about the +1/-1 AS psychic power?

It strikes me as a complete game changer, depending on the specifics. For instance, is it a Primaris? Does it debuff invulnerable saves too? If the answer to all three is "no," well it's still a crazy-good power, but it would be hard to build a list around it, unless you had a dozen psyker mastery levels in your list (which you might, actually, if warlocks are ML1). If "yes" though, I'd be spamming the hell out of this power with allied eldar, all day long. MEQ, meet heavy flamer. Hammernators, meet Banshees (seriously, banshees would tear hammernators apart, point for point), krak missiles, lightning claws, etc.

A psychic power that essentially enables AP2 at init is a huge deal, IMO!

[colinsherlow]

Except it's *not* the movement phase when infiltrators deploy.

For the record, I agree that it's silly, but Rules-As-Written, there's nothing stopping him from deploying in base-to-base contact with an enemy model that I can see - especially because there is no rule in 6th edition that says a charge is the only way to initiate combat (there was in 5th, but not 6th). His rules say that he can deploy "regardless of proximity", and 0" is within that wording.

Bet you that gets Errata'd fast!




Enemies models can't be within 1inch of you unless assaulting. Maybe you can be within 1inch of them. But they are not allowed to be within 1inch of you. Plus I doubt you want yo start him in combat regardless

[Sonikgav]

Except it's *not* the movement phase when infiltrators deploy.

For the record, I agree that it's silly, but Rules-As-Written, there's nothing stopping him from deploying in base-to-base contact with an enemy model that I can see - especially because there is no rule in 6th edition that says a charge is the only way to initiate combat (there was in 5th, but not 6th). His rules say that he can deploy "regardless of proximity", and 0" is within that wording.

Bet you that gets Errata'd fast!

Well no because ok, its not the movement phase, but its not the Assault Phase either, and your not in the process of Charging!

If that gets an FAQ, actually, correction, if that NEEDS an FAQ then im underestimating how pedantic some people can get in this hobby.

[deinol]

So looking at the weapon summary sheet pic, only weapon we get with Skyfire is the missile launcher. Reapers don't even get it. Nothing on the list starts with interceptor, so unless we get it from an Exarch power, not much anti-air.

[Mkvenner]

Well the Crimson Hunter has it along with 4 Str 8 Lance shots. Pretty good. Not to mention it's a Flyer.

Dark Reapers can get Flakk on the Exarch with Fast Shot.

Not to mention there is Divination with Foreboding or all the ways we can twin link our weapons with Scatter Lasers, Guide, or the Divination Primaris.

[Chronowraith]

War Walkers can get Missile Launchers with Flakk according to the leak. I'd say that's plenty of anti-air. Throw in the Dark Reaper Exarch as MkVenner mentioned and the crimson hunter and I think that's plenty of Anti-Air.

[SeekingOne]

OK, so... what do we know about the +1/-1 AS psychic power?

Well, it's a Warlock/Wraithseer power and it's NOT primaris, so 1/6 and 1/3 chance to roll it respectively.

If you take a full 10-strong squad of warlocks you have a pretty decent chance of getting one of those... But that enterprise will cost you 350 pts base, + 150 to mount them on bikes (as they have no option of taking a WS, lol). A bit too costly if you ask me...

[Defenestratus]

Well the Crimson Hunter has it along with 4 Str 8 Lance shots. Pretty good. Not to mention it's a Flyer.

You assume - incorrectly - that devoid of some miraculous defensive upgrade available to the already overcosted Purple People Eater Hunter, that it will survive past its first movement phase - which it simply wont :P

[Defenestratus]

War Walkers can get Missile Launchers with Flakk according to the leak. I'd say that's plenty of anti-air. Throw in the Dark Reaper Exarch as MkVenner mentioned and the crimson hunter and I think that's plenty of Anti-Air.

Standard EML's don't get flakk according to the scans online. You get Starstrike and Plasma... not flakk. Trying to figure out what actually gets flakk is seemingly a mystery.

[Sildani]

They're incorrect. Minsc on Warseer, who has the Codex itself, confirmed that missile launchers on Reaper Exarchs and War Walkers can get flakk missiles as options. And remember, War Walkers are BS4 now.

Nothing in the Codex seems to have Inteceptor though.

[Chronowraith]

Standard EML's don't get flakk according to the scans online. You get Starstrike and Plasma... not flakk. Trying to figure out what actually gets flakk is seemingly a mystery.


Go to the section on War Walkers... it states that they can get "anti-air rockets" which I assume are flakk missiles.

[Nx2]

Warwalkers with eml and flakk are pretty expensive, i dont remember exactly, but it was either triple digit or a tad below that per walker.

[Anarchyman99]

Forgive me for skipping the 20+ pages to post this, but why can't Banshees charge into cover, It makes you I1 but your ripping 5I off the unit you hit, so as long as you assault I6 or less you strike as that same time, and it's better to have them in CC than shooting, more unit's can hope to hit at the same time charging cover than get to go first.

What happens if you attach an Autarch with Plasma Grenades?

[Archon Charybdis]

Forgive me for skipping the 20+ pages to post this, but why can't Banshees charge into cover, It makes you I1 but your ripping 5I off the unit you hit, so as long as you assault I6 or less you strike as that same time, and it's better to have them in CC than shooting, more unit's can hope to hit at the same time charging cover than get to go first.

The fact that being shot at is terrible for Banshees doesn't mean being in CC is a whole lot better--espcially when not going first. Banshees have always relied on striking first and reducing the amount of return attacks to be able to win combat, and even then they usually relied on psychic support to do so reliably. Now they're not even going first, and can't depend on any sort of support to make them killier or more survivable.


What happens if you attach an Autarch with Plasma Grenades?

He strikes at Initiative.

[Mkvenner]

Forgive me for skipping the 20+ pages to post this, but why can't Banshees charge into cover, It makes you I1 but your ripping 5I off the unit you hit, so as long as you assault I6 or less you strike as that same time, and it's better to have them in CC than shooting, more unit's can hope to hit at the same time charging cover than get to go first.

What happens if you attach an Autarch with Plasma Grenades?

In order for units to strike simultaneously they have to possess grenades. They can't be shared. For Banshees to be most effective they need to not take damage in combat. Simultaneously means they will have casualties. That's without what could happen when you are Overwatched...

[skeletoro]

Well, it's a Warlock/Wraithseer power and it's NOT primaris, so 1/6 and 1/3 chance to roll it respectively.

If you take a full 10-strong squad of warlocks you have a pretty decent chance of getting one of those... But that enterprise will cost you 350 pts base, + 150 to mount them on bikes (as they have no option of taking a WS, lol). A bit too costly if you ask me...

Hmm! Still kinda tempting though.

Maybe not a full sized, 500 point council. But a decent-sized council with 2 models deployed with Windrider Jetbike squads... may be well worth it. If I'm not mistaken, you determine powers before deployment, and if warlocks are assigned to units exactly like wolf guard, you could be quite flexible about which powers were swapped out.

I'm assuming warlock councils are elites (or are they still a farseer tack-on?) and Wraithseers are HQ?

[Darge]

Made a post over on DakkaDakka that organizes the info Souba gave us yesterday, also "translated" all the names of war gear and special rules to what should be in the english codex(Rune Prophet -> Far Seer, Old Nemesis -> Ancient Doom ect.)

I'd post it here but I can't figure out how to use the spoiler tag in this forum(if there is one) and don't want there to be a huge wall of text.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/463557/5671458.page#5671458

[daboarder]

man so tell me, when the tyranid codex is re-released if Genestealers aren't given grenades and overwatch protection a I allowed to complain as much as you eldar players are?

[calamitycal]

man so tell me, when the tyranid codex is re-released if Genestealers aren't given grenades and overwatch protection a I allowed to complain as much as you eldar players are?

Yes you are. And hopefully nobody will troll your posts.

[calamitycal]

War Walkers can get Missile Launchers with Flakk according to the leak. I'd say that's plenty of anti-air. Throw in the Dark Reaper Exarch as MkVenner mentioned and the crimson hunter and I think that's plenty of Anti-Air.

Agreed. Feels like anti-air is covered pretty well. Gonna have to wait and see regarding viable CC options.

[Power Klawz]

2+ AS aspects make me lol. I can just imagine 2+ fire dragons, what horror.

I can't remember what squads warlocks can join, I know jetbikes and guardians for sure, but can they join aspects? I'm guessing not but man, warlock spam seems kind of heinous if they can. 5 of these guys and a farseer and you're looking at untold opportunities for psychic shenanigans.

Banshees punking terminators one on one, firewarriors not getting armor saves against shuriken catapults, Aspects immune to at initiative power weapons, 2+ cover saves everywhere, buh.

"This will not be over quickly, you will not enjoy it, I am not your queen."

[Defenestratus]

Agreed. Feels like anti-air is covered pretty well. Gonna have to wait and see regarding viable CC options.

I think you'll choke when you see how expensive a fragile little war walker is when given flakk missiles.

[calamitycal]

I think you'll choke when you see how expensive a fragile little war walker is when given flakk missiles.

Probably. Again, we'll have to see.

[daboarder]

Yes you are. And hopefully nobody will troll your posts.

So why was it whining when we did it 4 years ago?

Seriuosly the hypocrisy in this thread is frakking hilarious.

[calamitycal]

So why was it whining when we did it 4 years ago?

Seriuosly the hypocrisy in this thread is frakking hilarious.

You lost me. I didn't call it whining, you did.

All I said was if you want to post concerns about your next codex update you are more than free too. I don't understand the need to jump on people for posting concerns though. But we all have our hobbies.

[Power Klawz]

So why was it whining when we did it 4 years ago?

Seriuosly the hypocrisy in this thread is frakking hilarious.

Its always whining when you don't care, and always the most important thing ever that everyone needs to hear right now when you do.

I had started an eldar army a while back, its only in its rudimentary stages right now. (Farseer, dark reapers, guardians and avengers, a squad of each.) but from what I've heard so far this army seems like it's going to be fun as hell to play with. I've always wanted Eldar to go back to Dark Eldar levels of, lets say "skill cap." Eldar has never been a forgiving race to play, its not set it and forget it and if you mess something up you die all over the place, whats been missing from this equation for the past few years (unlike some I didn't have too many issues with the 4th edition dex when it came out, was pretty well balanced for its time.) is the payoff. These rumors seem like they brought the sexy back. Still high risk but now high reward. All the parts have to move in unison and when they do you get to sit back with a smirk and think, "Just as planned."

Conehead helmet optional.

[daboarder]

You lost me. I didn't call it whining, you did.

All I said was if you want to post concerns about your next codex update you are more than free too. I don't understand the need to jump on people for posting concerns though. But we all have our hobbies.

It was more a general observation that a number of the people complaining in this thread are usually the first people to point out during a codex release that

1) the codex hasn't been released yet, read it yourself first

2) The world isn't ending and you'll need to give it time to test how things actually work during games before you evaluate it

3) its only toy soldiers!

edit: I agree with power klawz,

these rumours sound AWESOME, and even the not so good units aren't dealing with anything other armies units don't have to deal with as well.

[AttemptedM]

man so tell me, when the tyranid codex is re-released if Genestealers aren't given grenades and overwatch protection a I allowed to complain as much as you eldar players are?

Tyranids are my main army. I alone have complained at least as much as the eldar players in this one thread. Of course, I've had all sorts of time to complain in comparison.

Genestealers get a bunch of goodies ws6, infiltrate, i6, ld 10 s/t4 and 2 base attacks that make them pretty sweet. Whenever I do play them my opponents faces are freaking hilarious. The downside is that they don't have grenades, and that makes all those other sweet abilities useless. You can't use anything if you're dead.

Assault grenades should be worth 5 points per model with how scarce they are recently. Christ on a cracker next thing tactical marines won't get them.

Or they will, and they'll be 12 points per marine. And I'll finally give in and buy power armour.

[calamitycal]

It was more a general observation that a number of the people complaining in this thread are usually the first people to point out during a codex release that

1) the codex hasn't been released yet, read it yourself first

2) The world isn't ending and you'll need to give it time to test how things actually work during games before you evaluate it

3) its only toy soldiers!

edit: I agree with power klawz,

these rumours sound AWESOME, and even the not so good units aren't dealing with anything other armies units don't have to deal with as well.

Funny thing is, I agree with all 3 of those points, despite my posting concerns. This is a rumor thread... and people are discussing the rumors. Having a hard time seeing the big deal with that. I don't think anyone is threatening to melt their plastic soldiers or organize a march on GW's headquarters if Banshees suck. :)

And yea, Klawz has it mostly right, although I think it's mostly in the middle rather than one of those two extremes.

Some of the rumors do sound great. But a bunch sound mediocre at best. So yea, we'll have to wait and see the actual codex and then play the army. I've been playing since 2ed, so I'm used to changing with the updates.

[D6Damager]

I can't remember what squads warlocks can join, I know jetbikes and guardians for sure, but can they join aspects? I'm guessing not but man, warlock spam seems kind of heinous if they can. 5 of these guys and a farseer and you're looking at untold opportunities for psychic shenanigans.



Not likely. Warlocks only join Guardians. They no longer autocast their powers. They only roll on one chart. They are Ld8.

We are far more likely to see Spiritseer spam as they are ML2, can take RoB or Telepathy, unlock wraithblades/guard as troops and are ld9. They also act like Shadowsun's command drone in that they let wraiths reroll 1 on a unit they mark.

[Power Klawz]

Well you can't properly spam a unit with only 2 of them. I'm talking 5+ warlocks. I'm aware of all that other stuff and its' not terribly troubling to me. I assume you roll for powers before deployment, so you can always decide then where to put the powers you want where you need them. Or just mob them up into a deathstar seer council on jetbikes, fling magic missiles around like a boss and never die. Maybe every once in a while one of your locks' heads will explode, but its a small price to pay for such tomfoolery.

[Darge]

I posted a compilation of the info Souba released yesterday, on 4chan, over on dakkadakka, would have posted it here but I can't seem to figure out how to use spoiler tags on these forums (assuming you can), anyway the link to the post is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/463557/5671458.page#5671458

It's got the army special rules, vehicle equipment, complete army list and weapon profiles.

Everything is based off of Raziel/Souba's info released yesterday or info from other reliable leaks I've found, in my interpretation of the rules, I will not copy/paste info from the codex.

No costs are included other than base costs, you can find the point costs elsewhere as I'm not in the role of replacing the codex.

[Eldar_Atog]

I am looking forward to a bunch of psyker mischief with this book. I'm going to miss my RoW though. I'll never forget Ahriman killing himself with a bunch of perils wounds :)

[skeletoro]

So seer councils.. do they use a FOC slot? HQ? Elites? Or are they free-floating like before (and if so, I wonder if you still need to take a farseer as an HQ to unlock them?)

Just trying to figure out what I could fit as allies for my 4 Rune Priests ;)

And do we know what the Hagun Zar is? Is it just a power weapon?

[Darge]

So seer councils.. do they use a FOC slot? HQ? Elites? Or are they free-floating like before (and if so, I wonder if you still need to take a farseer as an HQ to unlock them?)

Just trying to figure out what I could fit as allies for my 4 Rune Priests ;)
And do we know what the Hagun Zar is? Is it just a power weapon?

You get one warlock council per primary detachment of your amry
It's an HQ choice that doesn't take an HQ slot.
You do not need a Far seer to have a warlock council.
You may have up to 10 warlocks in a warlock council.
Each Warlock may leave the warlock council to become in character in a guardian squad(all guardian squads, storm,
defender, jetbike, support battery. Those that don't stay apart of the warlock council.

Hagun Zar is the German name for witch blade, they may also upgrade to a singing spear for 5 pts.

Jetbikes are 15 pts each btw
And warlocks are 35 pts.

[eldargal]

I was able to read most of the book last night (a friend got her copy, lucky bleep) and I have to say everything looks pretty excellent. Except Banshees, which makes me cry. They are the Mandrakes of the book except worse. Even falcons, fire prisms and support batteries look good for gods sake even if they are competing heavily for slots.

Ran out of time before I got a chance to look at the background section.:(

[Mkvenner]

I was able to read most of the book last night (a friend got her copy, lucky bleep) and I have to say everything looks pretty excellent. Except Banshees, which makes me cry. They are the Mandrakes of the book except worse. Even falcons, fire prisms and support batteries look good for gods sake even if they are competing heavily for slots.

Ran out of time before I got a chance to look at the background section.:(

Does it hurt more due to the fact that Phil lied to you? He said they would be amazing. He's betrayed your trust... Gooood. Let the hate flow through you.

[daboarder]

Does it hurt more due to the fact that Phil lied to you? He said they would be amazing. He's betrayed your trust... Gooood. Let the hate flow through you.

Strike him down with all your hatred

[Mkvenner]

Strike him down with all your hatred

It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine!

[daboarder]

It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine!

Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational wraithknight

[eldargal]

Does it hurt more due to the fact that Phil lied to you? He said they would be amazing. He's betrayed your trust... Gooood. Let the hate flow through you.

I'm already well Sith-ed up.:p What hurts is that he found a way to make nearly everything else useful (even Swooping Hawks) but just by a few omissions Banshees are rendered virtually useless. Give them back grenades* and they would be an acceptable counter attack unit. That would be enough. Want to make them very useful for disrupting enemy assaults? Let their Banshee Mask disrupt Overwatch in some fashion. Even without assault vehicles they could have been easily made useful. Hell, don't want them disruting overwatch? Drop their armour save down to 3+, it makes them a bit more hardy against a lot of weapons. Huge missed opportunity. Not just a missed opportunity because Banshees actually got worse.


Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational wraithknight
I lol'd.

*Or make Masks negate terrain like they used to.

[Mkvenner]

Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational wraithknight

I got nothing to that other than the fact it will be around 260pts haha.


I'm already well Sith-ed up.:p What hurts is that he found a way to make nearly everything else useful (even Swooping Hawks) but just by a few omissions Banshees are rendered virtually useless. Give them back grenades* and they would be an acceptable counter attack unit. That would be enough. Want to make them very useful for disrupting enemy assaults? Let their Banshee Mask disrupt Overwatch in some fashion. Even without assault vehicles they could have been easily made useful. Hell, don't want them disruting overwatch? Drop their armour save down to 3+, it makes them a bit more hardy against a lot of weapons. Huge missed opportunity. Not just a missed opportunity because Banshees actually got worse.

I am right there with you. Grenades and a way to negate Overwatch would have made them viable. Warp Spiders are the bees knees though. Don't get me wrong, Swooping Hawks are viable, but Spiders are so damned fast and can fire autocannon shots.

[eldargal]

Warp Spiders are a start unit now, no doubt. Amusing given the whole 'GW only make new kits powerful' thing people have going on when the WS sculpts are twenty years old.:rolleyes:

[deaddice]

hmmm so banshees being crap is confirmed, oh well I might use them as self imposed challenge unit.

[Mkvenner]

Warp Spiders are a start unit now, no doubt. Amusing given the whole 'GW only make new kits powerful' thing people have going on when the WS sculpts are twenty years old.:rolleyes:

What're you going to do? haha. It happens. I'm just glad those Dark Reapers I just bought are going to see some action. Got a wicked good deal on them.

[deaddice]

on another note aren't wave serpents now really good for tank shocking.

I mean if penetrating hits can be down graded to glances it means you could now reliably kill MC when they death or glory so long as you pass that 2+.

[daboarder]

on another note aren't wave serpents now really good for tank shocking.

I mean if penetrating hits can be down graded to glances it means you could now reliably kill MC when they death or glory so long as you pass that 2+.

just means no one is ever going to accept, I mean it was always a bad idea to accept DoG with a MC before anyway.

[Alqualonde]

this is probably the wrong place to ask but while we are discussing elder units and there rules. what do people think about the forgeworld shadow spectres are they actually usable/ worthwile . I just started painting some as they look nice but not sure if theyl ever get feilded except as proxy figures.

back on topick its nice to see the elder get some love at last planning on converting some shining spears to back up my wraithguard when I get them.

They can do some nasty stuff. Had a guy deepstrike a unit of 7 termies and shoot with them, leaving them in a nice circle. Ghostlight S7AP2 blast, 2 termies survived (they were lucky) and then jetpacked behind my aegis to hide from incoming.

They are stunning figures and even if they weren't so great I'd find a way to use them.

[eldargal]

FW will probably FAQ IA11 to bring it in line with the new codex at some point, hopefully Shadow Spectres will be changed somewhat. 'cos they were mediocre before and re rubbish now. If not I'll use them as Warp Spiders. With Banshees as Scorpions.:(

[DarkLink]

just means no one is ever going to accept, I mean it was always a bad idea to accept DoG with a MC before anyway.

Why do tank shock rules suck:(. Running people over with tanks should be awesome.

[Enternet_y]

I hereby inaugurate my first comment in the BOLS forum(s) by asking: what's the status of striking scorpions now? Sorry if it's already been covered specifically, if it has I've missed it, but are they actually viable now?

[deaddice]

I hereby inaugurate my first comment in the BOLS forum(s) by asking: what's the status of striking scorpions now? Sorry if it's already been covered specifically, if it has I've missed it, but are they actually viable now?

Based on the rumours they are definitely viable.

[deaddice]

Why do tank shock rules suck:(. Running people over with tanks should be awesome.

I still plan on doing some tank shocking if only because if done well you can use wave serpents to 'corral' enemy models together for a ripe flaming or blast weapon.

[lattd]

The rumours just seem to have shifted banshees from premier assault unit to premier counter assault unit, keep them back to defend guardians etc and they will be useful. Does acrobat let them assault after they have run?

[SeekingOne]

Does acrobat let them assault after they have run?

No it doesn't. And, IMO, it's absolutely obvious that Banshees can't possibly compare in the counter-assault role with Harlequins or perhaps even Shining spears.

BTW, anyone who really wants to use Banshee models should consider using them 'counts-as' Harlequins. Imho, it's much more natural than, say, pretending they are Scorps :)