Eldar Rumour Titbits

[Lost Vyper]

BTW, anyone who really wants to use Banshee models should consider using them 'counts-as' Harlequins.

Yep, been doing that since the 6th ed came out and that still seems to be the case...*sigh* I´m just too lazy to start painting Harlies and eBay deals on those been either ugly as **** or expensive as ****

[murgel]

No, Banshees will not even make the counter attack unit "slot". Because Stormguardians have that one secured!

Look at my beloved stormguardians.
up to 20? check.
Flamer option? check.
Fusion gun option? check.
Powersword option? check.
Psyker support option? check.
I have not seen if there is a scorpion sword option.

Maybe a Banshee will be my counts as Guardian-with-power-sword.

[Tyrendian]

FW will probably FAQ IA11 to bring it in line with the new codex at some point, hopefully Shadow Spectres will be changed somewhat. 'cos they were mediocre before and re rubbish now. If not I'll use them as Warp Spiders. With Banshees as Scorpions.:(

yeah, in the test rules Shadow Spectres were pretty cool for short range Terminator killing or long-range-combined-lance-shot-of-death-ing something - the changes they got in IA11 made them pretty meh sadly... I usually ask for permission to use the old rules in friendly games - not overpowered but much more fun! Also, their Phoenix Lord is kind of a beast...

[SeekingOne]

A few more thoughts on Wave Serpents...

After looking at the Wave Serpent codex entry in full, I can say that the designer's intent seems quite clear. It is indeed intended to be a battle tank first and transport second. This saddens me a great deal, because, as Murgel pointed out recently, it's really a change made in directly opposite direction to what the WS as a unit - and the Eldar codex as a whole - really needed. Simply put, the with nearly all our Infantry units being medium- to short-ranged AND having mediocre durability, the Eldar codex literally screams for a modestly-priced transport option. And yet, now we've been officially denied it. We already have 2 battle tanks of decent quality (as far as Eldar tanks go at least), and, IMHO, the LAST thing that we needed is the WS, our only full transport, turning into the 3rd unit in the same category. And yet this is just what has happened. Well... what can I say, we'll have to deal with it somehow.

With all that in mind, I can say that with the new codex the only way to use Wave Serpents efficiently is to make the most out of their firepower. We really have no other choice given the point costs. It becomes kind of obvious when you see that the WS's base cost is 115, and then for mere 5 (yes, five) pts you can upgrade the turret to any other heavy weapon (except EML, of which I'll talk later).

Now, among weapon configs there is one that clearly stands out as being quite strong for its cost. It is a WS w/linked Scatter Laser and underslung shuricannon. This config fires the total of 7 S6 shots at BS4, 4 of which are t/l and the other 3 are almost guaranteed to be t/l due to to Laser Targetting rule. It's a bit short-ranged (only 24"), but its total cost is 130 pts, and it can be fired after the 12" move.
One other funny thing to consider: until it is FAQ'ed, going by RAW a hit with Scatter Laser turret will also enable a WS to reroll misses with its "shield-cannon" :D

There's one other thing thing that strikes me as odd. It seems that in every edition Phil Kelly for some reason believes one particular heavy weapon to be super-powerful and makes it ridiculously overpriced. In the old codex it was a Bright Lance. Now it's a EML. While all other weapons (including lance) are identically priced and cost barely 5 pt more than basic shuriken cannon, EML is almost twice as expensive. Why it is so - this question is beyond me. If it were complete with flakk ammo as standard, it would've been perfectly understandable, but it's not. It almost looks like it was priced as "flakk-included" variant, and then for some reason flakks were taken out last moment, but prices didn't change. Or they agreed to include flakks but forgot to actually type them in, lol.

[Nx2]

The Starstrike missile (s8ap3) has now pinning now. Not a huge buff, but makes the EML cost slightly more bearable.

[SeekingOne]

The Starstrike missile (s8ap3) has now pinning now. Not a huge buff, but makes the EML cost slightly more bearable.
Pinning for +10 points for an already very costly unit... bearable? Not really, no :)

To add to the above WS-related post, a couple of Serpents equipped in that way can alpha-strike a unit within 24" with the total of 14 S6 and (on average) 9 S7 shots, all at BS4 rerollable. Which yields about 20 hits wounding most infantry on 2+.

[lattd]

Well i still plan on running banshees because with everyone saying how poor they are, no one will consider them a threat compared to wraith knight, scorpions etc.

[mr_draken]

Can someone clarify something for me please.... So with the scatter lasers new laser targetting rule..... does that mean that if its on a platform, all that shrunken from the guardians is now twin linked? If so i think serpents with guardians in them just got even more interesting in my eyes...

[cebalrai]

The rumours just seem to have shifted banshees from premier assault unit to premier counter assault unit, keep them back to defend guardians etc and they will be useful. Does acrobat let them assault after they have run?


The problem is that Guardians have Banshee WS and I5 now. You'd be better off using storm guardians to counter assault IMO.

[Kamin_Majere]

Can someone clarify something for me please.... So with the scatter lasers new laser targetting rule..... does that mean that if its on a platform, all that shrunken from the guardians is now twin linked? If so i think serpents with guardians in them just got even more interesting in my eyes...

From the answers that others have given... no
The targeting boost only works on the model that is armed with the scatter laser, so no guardians will benefit from it as a weapons platform (any more than a S6 4 shot weapon already gives you)

[mr_draken]

From the answers that others have given... no
The targeting boost only works on the model that is armed with the scatter laser, so no guardians will benefit from it as a weapons platform (any more than a S6 4 shot weapon already gives you)

oh well, was worth a thought, cheers for the reply.

On another note, got my email from GW today, my codex is on the way! was apparently sent lunch time today, so if my knowledge of how the aussie postal service works is still correct, it will either be here tomorrow/saturday, or sometime next year.

[Learn2Eel]

Updates on the Wraithknight (and Wraithblades);

Invulnerable saves for both are 4+, the Wraithknight one has the Blind effect.
The Wraithknight can only shoot two weapons per turn, which is certainly odd.

Having a 4+ invulnerable save is massive on a T8 W6 model, no wonder it costs ~40 points to take it and the Suncannon.

[Freakeh]

That's what I was worried about, having all these amazing weapons but being a MC so you can only shoot 2 of them.. seems really stupid.

[DrLove42]

My annoyance is i want to take a Wraithlance and the shield, only allowing a shield with the other weapon seems a wierd design choice.

[Learn2Eel]

The shoulder mounted weapons are probably very cheap; given how cheap they reportedly are throughout the codex (like 5-15 points for most of them, 10-20 for the missile launcher) they are probably just there to give you a bit of extra punch for a different kind of target. It depends on what you do with the arms. Obviously, a sword and shield Wraithknight would benefit a lot from two shoulder weapons. A Suncannon and shield would benefit a lot from the Scatter Lasers for twin-linking, or the Starcannons for infantry-blending. The Wraithlances one would actually get a lot of mileage out of Starcannons I feel, as you would then have a pair of weapons for each situation; Wraithlances for high Toughness/multi-wound/vehicles, Starcannons for infantry/low Toughness monsters. When I look at it that way, I actually think it kind of makes sense, provided the guns are cheap.

[Defenestratus]

Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational wraithknight

For 300+ points? Think I'll pass.

[SeekingOne]

Updates on the Wraithknight (and Wraithblades);

Invulnerable saves for both are 4+, the Wraithknight one has the Blind effect.
The Wraithknight can only shoot two weapons per turn, which is certainly odd.

Having a 4+ invulnerable save is massive on a T8 W6 model, no wonder it costs ~40 points to take it and the Suncannon.
That's not what I see. The WK's item is called "scattershield". Scattershield causes blind tests and gives 5+ invul.

And shoulder-mounted weapons cost 15-20 pts each.

Axe-wielding WBs have a different item called "forceshield", that one gives 4++.

[Learn2Eel]

Ah, seems like there has been a mix-up. Cheers for that mate.

[Tyrendian]

oh dear... so on the dual Wraithcannon version, we actually have to pay for two guns which we can not use? brilliant -.-
Unless, off course, the shoulder mounted guns are an optional upgrade which we don't have to buy? Then it'd be fine I guess - options to make the sword&shield variant at least a bit shooty, and saving points on the other variants... and if you really have the spare points, you might even consider giving it wraithcannons for AV and scatter lasers to clear out infantry - or even missile launchers, if that's a possibility? which weapons can we mount on its shoulders anyway? afaik, in the sprues we only have scatter lasers, shuriken cannons and star cannons, right?

[Learn2Eel]

oh dear... so on the dual Wraithcannon version, we actually have to pay for two guns which we can not use? brilliant -.-
Unless, off course, the shoulder mounted guns are an optional upgrade which we don't have to buy? Then it'd be fine I guess - options to make the sword&shield variant at least a bit shooty, and saving points on the other variants... and if you really have the spare points, you might even consider giving it wraithcannons for AV and scatter lasers to clear out infantry - or even missile launchers, if that's a possibility? which weapons can we mount on its shoulders anyway? afaik, in the sprues we only have scatter lasers, shuriken cannons and star cannons, right?

They are optional.

[Tyrendian]

They are optional.

ok thanks - then it's a useful option to have :) can it get EML or bright lances though?

[Belly]

Cn anyone confirm what perfect strike does? The crimson hunt exarch upgrade, thanks.

[Learn2Eel]

ok thanks - then it's a useful option to have :) can it get EML or bright lances though?

I don't think so unfortunately.

A note on the Avatar taking Exarch powers; looking at a Youtube video showing the codex, I can make out that they will cost anywhere between 5 and 20 points each, with all but one being below 20.

[brasidas]

Cn anyone confirm what perfect strike does? The crimson hunt exarch upgrade, thanks.

It might be the rumoured reroll for armour penetration against flyers.

[Learn2Eel]

Well, that is cool. The Dire Avenger Shimmershield now works against shooting as well.

[Belly]

It might be the rumoured reroll for armour penetration against flyers.

I'd assume that is the sky hunter special rule. Normal hunters get sky hunter and vector dancer, exarch a also get perfect strike. Which I've not seen mentioned anywhere

[DrLove42]

Is perfect strike the Nominating Targets on a 5+, cos it was rumoured the Exarch got that ability

[eris]

Have thrown down my thoughts on each unit, based on the Raz rumours which seem to have been largely confirmed by this point. Mostly I'm looking at it from a competitive 'play to win' (but not necessarily WAAC) point of view. No doubt purely fun and/or challenging games can be had with a variety of units.

#HQ
Farseer - Buffed, but random power generation makes them unreliable. It's disappointing that 2 of their 3 primaris powers are Guide and we're now bs4 so Guide isn't that useful.
Autarch - Largely unchanged meaning that they're still not very useful.
Spiritseer - A relatively cheap HQ who is a means to an end.
Avatar - Looks impressive, but will likely fail on the table. It only survived previously due to Fortune which we no longer have.
Pheonix Lords - Some look better, but they're still very expensive. Doubt they'll really get much table time.
Eldrad - Mastery Level 4 makes him more reliable than other seers, but still has entirely random power generation.
Illic - Dont know enough of his rules to comment at present.
Yriel - Dont know enough of his rules to comment at present.
Seer Council - Potential use for splitting off a Warlock to guardian squads giving them a 3+ in cover or 2+ in ruins. Seem expensive otherwise.

#Elite
Fire Dragons - Nerfed due to costing 6 points more per model. Still effective, but point increase hurts our overall list building ability.
Scorpions - A good buff. Lack of a delivery system overcome by Infiltrate and a 3+ armour save.
Banshees - Basically useless. No delivery system, no grenades, no ability to survive in the open.
Wraithguard - s10 shooting feels like a buff, combined with 5-man troop option and removal of wraithsight. Still fail to plasma cannons.
Wraithblades - s6, i5, ap3 attacks on a t6 model is nice. Will suffer from being slow and having no delivery system. Decent tho.
Harlies - Look unchanged aside from a return to the old Veil. Potentially effective if used right, but most won't use them.

#Fast Attack
Shining Spears - A lot cheaper and skilled rider makes them safer. Potential here.
Swooking Hawks - Inability to hop in and out hurts the grenade pack. Their shooting is still bad, so even with no scatter they suck.
Warp Spiders - Slower and drop to a 4+ makes these trash. 3+ and speed gave them some survivability, that's now gone.
Vypers - The same points for dual ShuriCan, but BS4 is not enough to make them worth taking.
Crimson Hunter - Potential due to the sheer firepower. but the support needed to get it in early and eliminate air defense might be prohibitive.
Hemlock - Useless. AP2 blasts seem good, but 18" range and AV10 puts it at risk of just being rapid fired down by bolters.

#Troops
Dire Avengers - Point increase and a nerf with the removal of bladestorm (as it was). Still viable for MSU Wave Serpents.
Guardians - Improved a lot. Cheap heavy weapon options mean they can sit in cover and actually contribute.
Storm Guardians - Useless, much like banshees. They can't disembark and assault and are not durable enough to survive out of a transport.
Jetbikes - Much improved. Various buffs and a points reduction, plus a warlock can reliably(!) give them a 3+ jink and 2+ flatout.
Rangers - Hard to say as I haven't seemn pathfinder stats. Cheaper, but worse. I guess the option is nice.

Wave Serpent - I like it. yes we needed an assault option, but.. for 120 pnts we have an AV12 tank that can fire a t/l SLaser followed by D6+1 t/l s7 shots every turn.

#Heavy Support
Fire Prism - Much improved. AP3 large blast, and the new s9 lance shot give it much better utility.
Falcon - Still seems lack-lustre for this FOC slot. Will suit some lists, but not really a damage dealer.
Night Spinner - For character sniping it's rending Barrage seems good. If it lost twin-linking and the terrain effects then it's badly nerfed tho.
War Walkers - Potential here due to the save and the cheap gun options. Scatter/Star combo's seem likely, tho pure scatter still looks strong.
Dark Reapers - Better, but can't see them getting game time in such a congested FOC slot.
Weapons Platforms - Mono seems poor, Vibro isn't clear, D has potential as 3 s10 blasts is powerful. Guide is plentiful, but range may be an issue.
Wraithlord - Not really impressed. There are better gun platforms and they're still lacklustre in assaults and easily tarpitted.
Wraithknight - Upgrades mostly seem useless. Either go vanilla or the 10 pnt assault variant. Should be an effective fire magnet.


Overall, we have some nice toys.. Fire prisms, Wraithknight, Jetbikes, Guardians, Wraithguard and Wave Serpents. Shining Spears and Scorpions have potential, as does the Crimson Hunter with it's decent weapon range and Vector Dancer letting it stay out of trouble. It feels like we'll be able to put together some ok lists, but with all of the points costs being so high it doesn't seem like it'll be easy. Our good unit's aren't cheap and even the survivable ones are still T3 with a 3+. They will die relatively easily without Fortune and we will no longer have Eldrad throwing it up on 2 units every turn. There's little option but to find something that works, but I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the book right now.

[Defenestratus]

<snip>

You've basically summed up my thoughts as well.

The glitter that they sprinkled on some of our units does not make up for the fact that 80% of the book is even more overpriced than it was before for what you get. The inability to reliably get fortune is a huge debuff army wide.

I think that we're going to start seeing mechdar come back because the only things that I see as reliable are the vehicles.

Late last night I did a quick "conversion" of 2 of my favorite lists for Eldar. Both of them were more expensive and in practice wouldn't work.

[Leon Davies]

Warp spiders have a 3+ save
They also have battle focus and can jump in the assault phase
Add to that S6 possibly 7 weapon that also tends I really can't see how you can think these are terrible now

[Tyrendian]

Warp Spiders - Slower and drop to a 4+ makes these trash. 3+ and speed gave them some survivability, that's now gone.


Sorry, but that's just plain wrong: Warp Spiders still have a 3+, they got even faster from all I hear, and their guns got much better (S7 vs vehicles and rendinglite vs infantry).

[Sersis]

<snip>


Maybe I am mistaken, but from what I've heard about Warp Spiders, they are better than before:

Faster: Up to 6''+2D6'' Warp Jump move during the movement phase, Run d6'' (with Re-roll due to Fleet, and they can shoot after or before run), and then the Jet Pack Thrust move during Assault phase.

Same Armour: 3+ (as they wear Heavy Aspect Armour)

Better weapons: Monofilament rule on all guns, Rapid Fire rule on Spinneret Rifle for Exarch + can purchase Fast Shot power.

Cheaper: They cost less nowdays.

[eldargal]

Unit cots are up slightly, weapon costs are down hugely, I think it will balance out. The only really useless unit is Banshees.



Late last night I did a quick "conversion" of 2 of my favorite lists for Eldar. Both of them were more expensive and in practice wouldn't work.
It's almost like we will have to adjust to a new book or something.:p

Edit: Yes, eris you musn't have read the Warp Spider rules properly, they are incredibly fast and very, very dangerous.

[Caitsidhe]

The glitter that they sprinkled on some of our units does not make up for the fact that 80% of the book is even more overpriced than it was before for what you get.

Welcome to my world. :D This is more or less what CSM players have been saying about their own Codex since its release. You did, like us, get some nasty which people will complain about endlessly and say makes up for the overall lack everywhere else. :D

[lattd]

You've basically summed up my thoughts as well.

The glitter that they sprinkled on some of our units does not make up for the fact that 80% of the book is even more overpriced than it was before for what you get. The inability to reliably get fortune is a huge debuff army wide.

I think that we're going to start seeing mechdar come back because the only things that I see as reliable are the vehicles.

Late last night I did a quick "conversion" of 2 of my favorite lists for Eldar. Both of them were more expensive and in practice wouldn't work.

I think you mean theory here, my preferred set up mostly got buffs but that may be cos it was deemed so poor in the last editions.

[Mr Mystery]

You've basically summed up my thoughts as well.

The glitter that they sprinkled on some of our units does not make up for the fact that 80% of the book is even more overpriced than it was before for what you get. The inability to reliably get fortune is a huge debuff army wide.

I think that we're going to start seeing mechdar come back because the only things that I see as reliable are the vehicles.

Late last night I did a quick "conversion" of 2 of my favorite lists for Eldar. Both of them were more expensive and in practice wouldn't work.

You 'converted' without sight of the actual book or rules? Amazing.

[Defenestratus]

It's almost like we will have to adjust to a new book or something.

What I meant to imply is that we're getting even less bodies for the same price it seems overall - unless your armies previously spammed the units that got cheaper.


You 'converted' without sight of the actual book or rules? Amazing.

The whole damn book is posted on the internet now.

[Tyrendian]

so speaking of Warp Spiders, do we think they are useful in large squads now? With the old 'dex, I found myself usually just using a squad of 5 (incl. Exarch) to jump around, annoy and hunt light vehicles/IG weapon teams (the latter was their favourite occupation btw, and my buddy insists on using weapon teams :D ) - but now, with how mobile they are and their damage potential, they seem like they could really pull some weight I think...

[Learn2Eel]

Warp Spiders have a maximum movement of 36" a turn, provided they roll fantastically. Just saying.

[Anarchyman99]

man so tell me, when the tyranid codex is re-released if Genestealers aren't given grenades and overwatch protection a I allowed to complain as much as you eldar players are?

Nice....

[eris]

Warp spiders have a 3+ save
They also have battle focus and can jump in the assault phase
Add to that S6 possibly 7 weapon that also tends I really can't see how you can think these are terrible now

Are they 3+ ok, that was misreported in the original rumour (typos happen). Well that's less bad, the difference between s6 and s7 isn't huge for most purposes. They're a little cheaper and have hit and run to try and escape combats they survive which is nice. I'll try them, but i guess they suffer from what i'm feeling about the codex as a whole:

There's some options, but it's a case of trying to puzzle together something that can work, rather than thinking 'wow, look at all these cool things i can do' which is what i assume tau players felt reading their book. I play Eldar.. and now my watch begins.

[Defenestratus]

so speaking of Warp Spiders, do we think they are useful in large squads now? With the old 'dex, I found myself usually just using a squad of 5 (incl. Exarch) to jump around, annoy and hunt light vehicles/IG weapon teams (the latter was their favourite occupation btw, and my buddy insists on using weapon teams :D ) - but now, with how mobile they are and their damage potential, they seem like they could really pull some weight I think...

I think that my 30 warp spiders are going to be getting a lot of use. I think that my shining spears are as well.

Swooping hawks - not so much.

[Learn2Eel]

I think Swooping Hawks will still prove popular. They may not seem great against T4, but against T3 armies they will eviscerate entire units at a time. Plus, no scatter on top of haywire grenades opens up room for a lot of shenanigans against other armies. At best, they will wreck a vehicle after unloading on a hapless squad, severely crippling or destroying both. At worst, they provide some decent damage and are an inexpensive distraction unit.

[Defenestratus]

Are they 3+ ok, that was misreported in the original rumour (typos happen). Well that's less bad, the difference between s6 and s7 isn't huge for most purposes. They're a little cheaper and have hit and run to try and escape combats they survive which is nice. I'll try them, but i guess they suffer from what i'm feeling about the codex as a whole:

There's some options, but it's a case of trying to puzzle together something that can work, rather than thinking 'wow, look at all these cool things i can do' which is what i assume tau players felt reading their book. I play Eldar.. and now my watch begins.

I'd disagree that they're "unquestionably slower".

Str7 against vehicle armor is pretty nice too.

[Defenestratus]

I think Swooping Hawks will still prove popular. They may not seem great against T4, but against T3 armies they will eviscerate entire units at a time. Plus, no scatter on top of haywire grenades opens up room for a lot of shenanigans against other armies. At best, they will wreck a vehicle after unloading on a hapless squad, severely crippling or destroying both. At worst, they provide some decent damage and are an inexpensive distraction unit.

I think that this is the exact same thing that they were designed to do in the last edition, and failed miserably.

The reason being is because as soon as they land, any vehicle that is worried about them is going to blow them out of the proverbial sky before they're able to actually catch up to any vehicle they want to charge.

Basically if you're taking a unit thats good against T3 only, then when you come up against a T4 army you're screwed. As opposed to the reverse situation which works out for you every time.

[Build]

What're you going to do? haha. It happens. I'm just glad those Dark Reapers I just bought are going to see some action. Got a wicked good deal on them.

I know what I'm going to do about it, won't be hard or take long to do either. ;)

Think I'll start with a new exarch first, but will wait to see if there's any good artwork in the new book first before starting to sculpt.

[Caitsidhe]

I suppose the best improvement for the Eldar (and I suspect many Eldar haven't really cottoned to it yet) is the sheer number of effective deep strikes in combination with their new rules. For better or for worse, the gun is definitely King and the Gun Line is High King. I think the combination of interesting rules for their balance of highly effective deep strike gun line eradication combined with nasty high power ranged and effective Monstrous Creatures is going to make them viable where many "tougher" armies just keep getting shot down.

*I say this as a person who would LOVE to be able to deep strike and then move a bit to correct the deviation to maximize templates. Right now I deal with the gun lines with Obliterators and Termicide for the most part. The Obliterators are useful in that if I hit dead on I can use the Flamers (or deviated toward people and away from my Melta target). But the notion of being able to hit, fix, template makes me VERY jealous.

[D6Damager]

For 300+ points? Think I'll pass.

Same.

I just can't see this thing living beyond turn 2 in my local meta of IG, GK, space wolfs, CSM players. With the size of it I don't see being able to keep it out of LOS while still having it be an effective model in the game. We mostly play 1850 points around here so removing a 250 point base model after first turn shooting is going to be really debilitating. Let alone bringing it competitively to a tournament vs. Daemon flying circus, Necron/Gk, Manticore gunlines or blastmaster spam.....

For 20 points cheaper you can get a wave serpent of wraith_____s whichI I think would be more effective at any shooting or CC role the Wraithknight might have had.

Same thing with the flyers as ADLs are everywhere (along with bolter fire) so unless you can take it out early (easier said than done) you will most likely lose a flyer a turn.

[Tyrendian]

Are they 3+ ok, that was misreported in the original rumour (typos happen). Well that's less bad, the difference between s6 and s7 isn't huge for most purposes. They're a little cheaper and have hit and run to try and escape combats they survive which is nice. I'll try them, but i guess they suffer from what i'm feeling about the codex as a whole:

There's some options, but it's a case of trying to puzzle together something that can work, rather than thinking 'wow, look at all these cool things i can do' which is what i assume tau players felt reading their book. I play Eldar.. and now my watch begins.

to be honest, I feel exactly like the Tau players: totally excited to try all the new stuff! And if it needs some puzzling together - hey we're Eldar, that's kinda the point of playing this army...

[eldargal]

What I meant to imply is that we're getting even less bodies for the same price it seems overall - unless your armies previously spammed the units that got cheaper.
Yes but how weapons are cheaper and more devastating. Personally I really think we are looking at a properly elite, flexible eldar army list now.:) Even with the (for me) soul crushing disappointment that is Banshees I think the book is excellent.

[Tyrendian]

Yes but how weapons are cheaper and more devastating. Personally I really think we are looking at a properly elite, flexible eldar army list now.:) Even with the (for me) soul crushing disappointment that is Banshees I think the book is excellent.

are we ever going to see a post by you without the word Banshee in it? :D

[Mr Mystery]

Got to say, the humble Guardian is now sounding pretty nasty. Yes, I probably could kick it's head in I get into HTH...but they'll likely be in cover...and if I go and fluff my charge, that's a LOT of pain coming my way...and surprisingly effective pain.

But yes I concede a longer would have been cool

[Sonikgav]

I think my main problem is deciding what configuration im taking my Wraithguard.

Im running a Ghost Warrior list and atm im leaning towards 2x10 Axe Blades, 1x10 WraithCannons and 2x5 WraithScythes.

Scythes seem perfect for sitting on Objectives in cover and the 4+ Inv on the Blades should see them safely up the board. Add HQ and support units and it should be cool.

[daboarder]

For 300+ points? Think I'll pass.

We can't repel pessimism of that magnitude!

[D6Damager]

Can anyone confirm the Guardian Jetbikes are still min squad size 3?

[eldargal]

are we ever going to see a post by you without the word Banshee in it? :D

Banshee nope.:p

[Caitsidhe]

In regards to the expensive Wraithknight, around 300pts kitted out, a lot of CSM players complain about the Daemon Prince's cost. I spend right around 300pts for mine and he tends to be a decent return on the points. The Wraithknight appears at least as useful as mine (albeit very different). I suppose at a minimum it will soak up a lot of fire from the rest of your army. :) I haven't seen the complete list of Eldar Disciplines yet, but perhaps there is some good synergy with some of those in there?

[Defenestratus]

Got to say, the humble Guardian is now sounding pretty nasty. Yes, I probably could kick it's head in I get into HTH...but they'll likely be in cover...and if I go and fluff my charge, that's a LOT of pain coming my way...and surprisingly effective pain.

But yes I concede a longer would have been cool

My problem with the guardians is that a 12" range in 6th edition is simply un-useable in any offensive capacity. The move-shoot-run seems like a bandaid on a glaring oversight. You'll only be able to use that trick if the enemy is 12-18" away and if they're at the top end of that, its unlikely that you're going to get all your guardians in range, and if you're at the lower end of that range, then you're likely going to get charged the following round like we always did.

Against things like chaos spawn that can charge as cavalry? Totally worthless having a 12" gun. Additionally, getting a point more expensive doesn't improve their tactical flexibility.

I know what people say - Guardians aren't supposed to be offensive. Thats why they're called "Guardians". And while thats all well and good, Guardians don't exactly have the tools to take it on the chin and sit on an objective. Sure, shrouded in cover gives them a 2+ save but its unreliable at best to roll a psychic test on LD8. Just not seeing the light on the guardians honestly.

[Defenestratus]

Banshee nope.:p

I've come around on Banshees btw. They're ****e.

[eris]

Wraithknight upgrades..

Sword and shield i get - it's cheap and it changes the role of the unit to a fast moving, in your face, CC beast who can hide in combat to some extent.
gun and shield - seems ridiculous. the gun is poor and it's incredibly expensive. you end up with a unit that's basically equivalent to a 3 piece artillery unit but which costs twice as much for +1 toughness. You can add guns, but they also seem incredibly expensive compared to the same guns on other models.
Vanilla - seems a good way to go. There's no point adding extra guns as you can't fire them and they're so overpriced for the WK that you 're better off using the points to buff another model to take care of threats the WK can't deal with.


one thing.. the more i look at the wave serpent, the more i like it. 60" s7 D6+1 ignores cover.. seems like built in emergency anti-flier option, you're got the volume of shots, the decent str and it denies jink saves! Tho I don't think I'll ever run a wave serpent with anything but a scatter laser for the twin linking effect on the shield shooting.

[Power Klawz]

I don't think you have to see the light on guardians, I don't think many players will until they lose a squad of deep strtiking termies to a bad bounce that puts them within 18 inches of some cover camping guardians. Honestly the best thing for eldar players is that people simply overlook them.

[Learn2Eel]

In regards to the expensive Wraithknight, around 300pts kitted out, a lot of CSM players complain about the Daemon Prince's cost. I spend right around 300pts for mine and he tends to be a decent return on the points. The Wraithknight appears at least as useful as mine (albeit very different). I suppose at a minimum it will soak up a lot of fire from the rest of your army. :) I haven't seen the complete list of Eldar Disciplines yet, but perhaps there is some good synergy with some of those in there?

In my themed Thousand Sons army, I use a kitted out Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - he clocks in at 340 points. Both times I have used him, he has been a literal beast; today alone, he shredded well over a third of my opponent's army single-handed. I look at a Wraithknight that is close to 300 points and think to myself "why can't I have that?" The Daemon Prince performs a different role, but the Wraithknight is both a better fire sink - T8 W6 means almost nothing in the game can instant-kill it, as opposed to the Daemon Prince, and it is immune to small arms fire - and can actually make its points back without risking its neck in a melee.

[Caitsidhe]

In my themed Thousand Sons army, I use a kitted out Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - he clocks in at 340 points. Both times I have used him, he has been a literal beast; today alone, he shredded well over a third of my opponent's army single-handed. I look at a Wraithknight that is close to 300 points and think to myself "why can't I have that?" The Daemon Prince performs a different role, but the Wraithknight is both a better fire sink - T8 W6 means almost nothing in the game can instant-kill it, as opposed to the Daemon Prince, and it is immune to small arms fire - and can actually make its points back without risking its neck in a melee.

These were my thoughts too. It is dangerous enough that it can't be ignored (providing board control) but tough enough that someone has to dedicate SERIOUS effort to put it down. I think it can buy a lot of wiggle room for the Eldar's more fragile forces.

[Power Klawz]

I'm still pretty confused about banshees not getting grenades, don't all the other aspects have grenades?

That's got to be a typo or something, makes absolutely no sense for them not to be able to charge through cover. Until I see it in print with my own eyes I refuse to believe it, and even if I do see it I will expect errata soon after.

[cebalrai]

My problem with the guardians is that a 12" range in 6th edition is simply un-useable in any offensive capacity. The move-shoot-run seems like a bandaid on a glaring oversight. You'll only be able to use that trick if the enemy is 12-18" away and if they're at the top end of that, its unlikely that you're going to get all your guardians in range, and if you're at the lower end of that range, then you're likely going to get charged the following round like we always did.

Against things like chaos spawn that can charge as cavalry? Totally worthless having a 12" gun. Additionally, getting a point more expensive doesn't improve their tactical flexibility.

I know what people say - Guardians aren't supposed to be offensive. Thats why they're called "Guardians". And while thats all well and good, Guardians don't exactly have the tools to take it on the chin and sit on an objective. Sure, shrouded in cover gives them a 2+ save but its unreliable at best to roll a psychic test on LD8. Just not seeing the light on the guardians honestly.



Guardians are going to excel in Wave Serpents though. As an Ulthwe player I'm thrilled.

And War Walkers went from being very good to supremely good. BS4 scatter laser hits, laser lock, then the 5-point BS4 Bright Lance gains twin-linked, that's 3 wounds plus an AP2 lance wound. And we're running these in cheap squadrons so *cough* with the occasional 1-to-wound

three AP2 lance wounds
eight AP6 wounds

That's a serious threat to virtually every unit in the game. Threatens ork hordes. Threatens Land Raiders. Threatens flyers. Everything outside of units in 2+ cover and even then you're likely to kill ~2 models. And the 5+ invuln means they're not as easily broomed off the map by Riptide plates.

[D6Damager]

In my themed Thousand Sons army, I use a kitted out Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - he clocks in at 340 points. Both times I have used him, he has been a literal beast; today alone, he shredded well over a third of my opponent's army single-handed. I look at a Wraithknight that is close to 300 points and think to myself "why can't I have that?" The Daemon Prince performs a different role, but the Wraithknight is both a better fire sink - T8 W6 means almost nothing in the game can instant-kill it, as opposed to the Daemon Prince, and it is immune to small arms fire - and can actually make its points back without risking its neck in a melee.

I would still say your daemon prince is more beastly than a WK and could easily take one out.

The WK is not immune to small arms fire. Between Necrons, Tau, and Eldar snipers weapons are abundant (and in the case of Tau and Eldar cheap) and easily added as allies. Dark Eldar splinter guns will force a lot of saves.

In CC, the amount of rending and poisoned attacks from Daemons and Tyranids will bring it down from much cheaper units. They have no eternal warrior and thus can be force weaponed.

[D6Damager]

And War Walkers went from being very good to supremely good. BS4 scatter laser hits, laser lock, then the 5-point BS4 Bright Lance gains twin-linked, that's 3 wounds plus an AP2 lance wound. And we're running these in cheap squadrons so *cough* with the occasional 1-to-wound

three AP2 lance wounds
eight AP6 wounds

That's a serious threat to virtually every unit in the game. Threatens ork hordes. Threatens Land Raiders. Threatens flyers. Everything outside of units in 2+ cover and even then you're likely to kill ~2 models. And the 5+ invuln means they're not as easily broomed off the map by Riptide plates.


Isn't that unit almost 200 points?

[Caitsidhe]

I'm still pretty confused about banshees not getting grenades, don't all the other aspects have grenades?

That's got to be a typo or something, makes absolutely no sense for them not to be able to charge through cover. Until I see it in print with my own eyes I refuse to believe it, and even if I do see it I will expect errata soon after.

I doubt it is a typo (however little sense it makes). Your likelyhood of getting grenades in this edition is in direct proportion to how effective you are at your job. :D If you are a dedicated assault unit, your chances are almost zero. ;) Apparently in this particular universe, they have invented grenades to support assault but have this belief that "real assault troops" don't need them and won't give them to any but those who aren't any good at assault in the first place. :D

[eldargal]

I'm still pretty confused about banshees not getting grenades, don't all the other aspects have grenades?

That's got to be a typo or something, makes absolutely no sense for them not to be able to charge through cover. Until I see it in print with my own eyes I refuse to believe it, and even if I do see it I will expect errata soon after.
I wouldn't be surprised if it were erratad back, though I'm not getting my hopes up.

[SeekingOne]

Scythes seem perfect for sitting on Objectives in cover and the 4+ Inv on the Blades should see them safely up the board. Add HQ and support units and it should be cool.

Scythes come at whopping 42 pts apiece. Is everyone aware of this small detail? Just checking... :)

[Learn2Eel]

I would still say your daemon prince is more beastly than a WK and could easily take one out.

The WK is not immune to small arms fire. Between Necrons, Tau, and Eldar snipers weapons are abundant (and in the case of Tau and Eldar cheap) and easily added as allies. Dark Eldar splinter guns will force a lot of saves.

In CC, the amount of rending and poisoned attacks from Daemons and Tyranids will bring it down from much cheaper units. They have no eternal warrior and thus can be force weaponed.

It depends on the army, but I personally don't think so. Unless I roll - and successfully cast - Iron Arm, I am scared helpless whenever I charge into something that can potentially instant-kill a model that expensive. Rolling a one for the daemon weapon can guarantee death against a wide range of foes. Today, I was forced with charging into at least one or two monstrous creatures, as the rest of my army (Thousand Sons) couldn't reliably deal with them.

Against most small arms fire, it is immune. That and unlike most other monsters, it isn't wounded on fours or fives by Immortals and Fire Warriors. In that sense, it is virtually immune to most small arms fire. I rarely see more than a handful of sniper rifles in most armies, so I don't consider it a major issue - barring specific circumstances, of course. Dark Eldar are a problem for any monstrous creature, and given the Wraithknight's cost, it is less afraid than most other monsters because it can stay out of range. With long-range guns and the jump pack move, it can pretty easily stay away from whatever would actually give it any serious issues - such as plasma guns and most splinter weaponry.

As a Jump Monstrous Creature in a full army, do you expect those forces to get into combat with it reliably? I don't really think so.
They can be force weaponed, but many force weapons can't even hope to harm one - either because they are Strength four or simply don't have the number of attacks to wound and force saves reliably enough.

[cebalrai]

Isn't that unit almost 200 points?

Should be 70 points per walker with two 5-pt guns so 210.

Under the last codex we paid 225 for the same setup so for 15 points less points we get ~40% more firepower.

[bfmusashi]

I look at the WK and think 'Stop. Daemonhammer time.'

[Learn2Eel]

I look at the WK and think 'Stop. Daemonhammer time.'

Provided you survive the hail of AP2 from the army :D

[Caitsidhe]

Should be 70 points per walker with two 5-pt guns so 210.

Under the last codex we paid 225 for the same setup so for 15 points less points we get ~40% more firepower.

Yep. This is one of the real gems of the Codex, i.e. nasty. These things annoyed me enough before.

[Learn2Eel]

I just had a thought; would a model with two Scatter Lasers be able to fire one and then benefit from the laser targeting for the other one?

[cebalrai]

I read on this thread earlier that Shining Spears have a larger unit size but how large is it? :)

[Sonikgav]

Scythes come at whopping 42 pts apiece. Is everyone aware of this small detail? Just checking... :)

...and heres me thinking they would be cheaper than Terminators. Maybe just 1 squad then. :-D

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Im sad they didn't use this opportunity to ramp out the threat level of the Eldar in the 41st Millennia.

[D6Damager]

I look at the WK and think 'Stop. Daemonhammer time.'
My thoughts too along with shunting Dreadknight.

[Eldar_Atog]

I'm still pretty confused about banshees not getting grenades, don't all the other aspects have grenades?

That's got to be a typo or something, makes absolutely no sense for them not to be able to charge through cover. Until I see it in print with my own eyes I refuse to believe it, and even if I do see it I will expect errata soon after.

I doubt it's a typo and it probably won't be errata'd. I haven't seen errata from when other armies' close combat units have been nerfed so don't look for it here. It'll only lead to disappointment.

Right now, I'm trying to decide how effective the Swooping Hawks would be against a T4 heavy weapons team. If they don't scatter as the rumors say.. I could drop them next to a heavy weapons team and try to eliminate it. They might not be able to kill the whole squad but perhaps they could do enough damage to render it ineffective.

Against most targets, the warp spiders will probably do better but this might be something that hawks can do better.

[Tyrendian]

I look at the WK and think 'Stop. Daemonhammer time.'

then again, you can look at anything that's not a Land Raider or Eternal Warrior and successfully 'Stop. Daemonhammer time' it...

[Defenestratus]

then again, you can look at anything that's not a Land Raider or Eternal Warrior and successfully 'Stop. Daemonhammer time' it...

Funny, I look at a Dreadknight and think "Bladestorm from Dire avengers time"

Silly silly marines.

As for WK fitout, I can only see the Heavy Wraithcannon outfit working personally. I have no idea why they allowed it to have 4 guns but only able to shoot two. That makes me scratch my head.

[Learn2Eel]

Funny, I look at a Dreadknight and think "Bladestorm from Dire avengers time"

Silly silly marines.

Yep. Even Guardians or Warp Spiders would do the trick. Eldar can deal with monstrous creatures incredibly well.

[SeekingOne]

Eris did a spot-on review, agree with him on ~95% of points.

Shining Spears
I got disappointed by those as I remembered the main issue that made them crap (which I almost forgot since I used them last time): they have no grenades. And they still don't seem to have them. So, alas, still no real potential here.

Warp Spiders
Those look better once I realised that they are not limited to 6" move in movement phase. This way they at least look like they're worth trying. But, actually, there is a secondary factor that would prevent Spiders from taking a place in competitive lists: they are about the same point cost as Guardian jetbikes! And jetbikes are much tougher (especially with a Warlock), faster, just as manoeurable (also can move in Assault phase), have the same range, AND they are Troops. Spiders unquestionably have better damage output against T4 infantry and light vehicles - but I'm sure that in the end better staying power and scoring ability would win out.

Wraith Knight

Dark Eldar are a problem for any monstrous creature, and given the Wraithknight's cost, it is less afraid than most other monsters because it can stay out of range. With long-range guns and the jump pack move, it can pretty easily stay away from whatever would actually give it any serious issues - such as plasma guns and most splinter weaponry.
What I disagree with in this statement, is that in reality a WK has no firepower to make it wortwhile at long range. 2 shots per turn, even at S10 - that's not enough for 240 pts. 3 small blasts - also not enough for ~300 pts.

All in all, the more I think of it the more I realise that the only competitive option for a WK is sword+shield. It is still cheap(ish), has Inv save, makes the most out of Jump pack and can hide in combat from ranged fire. AND in those lucky games where a Farseer actually manages to roll Fortune, with the Fortune's new 24" range WK can be kept fortuned most of the time. And it might actually rampage through many things before it's finally taken down. It's fluffier as well - what better way to take revenge for a dead sibling if not by tearing the enemy apart with your own hands... well, almost. I suppose that's how it should feel for the pilot :)

A combination of Avatar + melee WK seems to have potential as well.

[Bitrider]

From SeekingOne

...and can hide in combat from ranged fire....

This just kills me...I can understand how same sized models locked in CC cannot be shot at...but a WK in combat with just about any size model should be able to be shot at while in CC. eh..

[bfmusashi]

Provided you survive the hail of AP2 from the army :D

Screening minions are GO!

[bfmusashi]

Funny, I look at a Dreadknight and think "Bladestorm from Dire avengers time"

Silly silly marines.

As for WK fitout, I can only see the Heavy Wraithcannon outfit working personally. I have no idea why they allowed it to have 4 guns but only able to shoot two. That makes me scratch my head.
One of the reasons I've never touched the thing and wonder why people thought they're a problem. :p

[D6Damager]

Just saw the scan for Illic...and he's a boss.

He also has Hatred and Preferred enemy Necrons. All his shots are precision shots and he can deepstrike rangers or pathfinders to his location without scatter. He also has something called "Mark of the Incomparable Hunter" not sure what that does. He also has 4 attacks (thanks to pistol) at I6 with a power weapon.


Edit:

Mark is warlord trait that gives split fire.

[Learn2Eel]

Eris did a spot-on review, agree with him on ~95% of points.

Shining Spears
I got disappointed by those as I remembered the main issue that made them crap (which I almost forgot since I used them last time): they have no grenades. And they still don't seem to have them. So, alas, still no real potential here.

Warp Spiders
Those look better once I realised that they are not limited to 6" move in movement phase. This way they at least look like they're worth trying. But, actually, there is a secondary factor that would prevent Spiders from taking a place in competitive lists: they are about the same point cost as Guardian jetbikes! And jetbikes are much tougher (especially with a Warlock), faster, just as manoeurable (also can move in Assault phase), have the same range, AND they are Troops. Spiders unquestionably have better damage output against T4 infantry and light vehicles - but I'm sure that in the end better staying power and scoring ability would win out.

Wraith Knight

What I disagree with in this statement, is that in reality a WK has no firepower to make it wortwhile at long range. 2 shots per turn, even at S10 - that's not enough for 240 pts. 3 small blasts - also not enough for ~300 pts.

All in all, the more I think of it the more I realise that the only competitive option for a WK is sword+shield. It is still cheap(ish), has Inv save, makes the most out of Jump pack and can hide in combat from ranged fire. AND in those lucky games where a Farseer actually manages to roll Fortune, with the Fortune's new 24" range WK can be kept fortuned most of the time. And it might actually rampage through many things before it's finally taken down. It's fluffier as well - what better way to take revenge for a dead sibling if not by tearing the enemy apart with your own hands... well, almost. I suppose that's how it should feel for the pilot :)

A combination of Avatar + melee WK seems to have potential as well.

Whilst it definitely isn't a Riptide, I still think it is decent, depending on just how expensive the shoulder mounted weapons are. That it can also be pretty decent in a melee in a pinch and pretty reliably wreck most any vehicle is handy.


Just saw the scan for Illic...and he's a boss.

He also has Hatred and Preferred enemy Necrons. All his shots are precision shots and he can deepstrike rangers or pathfinders to his location without scatter. He also has something called "Mark of the Incomparable Hunter" not sure what that does. He also has 4 attacks (thanks to pistol) at I6 with a power weapon.

Wow, I didn't realize he had a power weapon too. This guy just gets better and better. I am interested to see how his super Infiltrate is FAQ'd (if it ever will be).

[Redemption]

He also has something called "Mark of the Incomparable Hunter" not sure what that does.
The Warlord Trait that gives him Split Fire if he's the Warlord of your army.

[HERO]

The Scatters on the WK are 20 a pop. I'm not too thrilled about that.

However, the 2x S10 AP2 shots give us something that Eldar hates.. AV12. You know, that stupid number that makes Lances look bad.

[Defenestratus]

Whilst it definitely isn't a Riptide, I still think it is decent, depending on just how expensive the shoulder mounted weapons are. That it can also be pretty decent in a melee in a pinch and pretty reliably wreck most any vehicle is handy.

Upgrade to Sword and shield +10 pts
Upgrade to Suncannon and shield +40 pts
Shuriken Cannon +15pts each
Scatter Laser +20pts each
Starcannon +20 pts each

Why anyone would take any of these guns on anything other than the sword/shield fitout is beyond me. I actually don't think the whole thing is worth it honestly since the WL can take two heavy weapons and a sword now.

[eris]

Why anyone would take any of these guns on anything other than the sword/shield fitout is beyond me.

Twinlinking the suncannon by adding a scatter laser isn't a bad idea.. well, it wouldn't be.. if taking the suncannon wasn't already a terrible idea.

[Defenestratus]

Twinlinking the suncannon by adding a scatter laser isn't a bad idea.. well, it wouldn't be.. if taking the suncannon wasn't already a terrible idea.

Correct. If you could take two suncannons for 40pts total, then that would be where its at.

[Learn2Eel]

Eh, two S10 AP2 Lance shots are pretty much guaranteed to get at least one penetrating hit on any non-flyer vehicle per turn. With a 36" range, it is pretty strong. But hey, at least the Wraithknight doesn't scream "must take" but is instead a handy choice.

Anyone else notice that the upgrade for Wraithblades from a pair of blades to the axe and shield is free? Compared to sword and board Lychguard (raw combat stats only), they have; -1 Attack, -1 Initiative (Unwieldy), +2 Strength, AP2 instead of AP3, T6, Fearless, all for less. Nice.

[Defenestratus]

It ain't lance ... sorry to let you down.

S10 AP2 Distort (which is laughable on a S10 gun really)

[Learn2Eel]

Doh, forgot about that lol.
In any case, I think it will still be one scary as hell fire magnet. As Seeking One pointed out earlier, pairing a melee one up with the Avatar would be horrendous to face.

[D6Damager]

Anyone else notice that the upgrade for Wraithblades from a pair of blades to the axe and shield is free? Compared to sword and board Lychguard (raw combat stats only), they have; -1 Attack, -1 Initiative (Unwieldy), +2 Strength, AP2 instead of AP3, T6, Fearless, all for less. Nice.

And with a Spiritseer they can reroll 1s to hit. I think axe and shield will be the most effective CC choice. Too bad they don't have grenades you'll just have to hope you can tank units in cover with the inv sv.

[Chronowraith]

I think that this is the exact same thing that they were designed to do in the last edition, and failed miserably.

The reason being is because as soon as they land, any vehicle that is worried about them is going to blow them out of the proverbial sky before they're able to actually catch up to any vehicle they want to charge.

If that's what is happening you either roll terribly or you are forgetting that grenades can be thrown. So drop the hawks near a vehicle and throw those grenades. A full squad of 10 should be able to take out a 3HP vehicle every turn pretty reliably and a 2HP vehicle easily. If you are lucky if won't explode and you'll have a little cover to huddle behind.

Don't drop them in the middle of your enemy's battle line. Go after isolated vehicles on flanks or the artillery ones lurking on the back of the board and your opponent won't be able to have much of a response. In the next turn, they jump back into reserve because that's still in the book. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Toss in that they dropped down to a very affordable price point and it's all good.

[Caitsidhe]

It ain't lance ... sorry to let you down.

S10 AP2 Distort (which is laughable on a S10 gun really)

Well it kind of is Lance... when you think about it. The highest ARM in the game is 14 so you need a 4+ to Glance or Penetrate. :D STR-10 Weapons by default will never need more than that same 4+... except of course they are better against anything weaker than 14.

[eris]

Pretty sure you could fit 3 melee WKs and an avatar in 1500 as long as you're taking reserved 3man jetbike squads as troops. ;)

[Tyrendian]

And with a Spiritseer they can reroll 1s to hit. I think axe and shield will be the most effective CC choice. Too bad they don't have grenades you'll just have to hope you can tank units in cover with the inv sv.

uh... what would they need grenades for when wielding axes anyway? their axes are just regular power axes, right?

[Defenestratus]

If that's what is happening you either roll terribly or you are forgetting that grenades can be thrown. So drop the hawks near a vehicle and throw those grenades. A full squad of 10 should be able to take out a 3HP vehicle every turn pretty reliably and a 2HP vehicle easily. If you are lucky if won't explode and you'll have a little cover to huddle behind.

Don't drop them in the middle of your enemy's battle line. Go after isolated vehicles on flanks or the artillery ones lurking on the back of the board and your opponent won't be able to have much of a response. In the next turn, they jump back into reserve because that's still in the book. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Toss in that they dropped down to a very affordable price point and it's all good.

You can only throw one grenade per shooting phase.

[Defenestratus]

Well it kind of is Lance... when you think about it. The highest ARM in the game is 14 so you need a 4+ to Glance or Penetrate. :D STR-10 Weapons by default will never need more than that same 4+... except of course they are better against anything weaker than 14.

If it were lance then it would pen land raiders on 3+ instead of 5+.

Pretty huge difference honestly.

[Learn2Eel]

uh... what would they need grenades for when wielding axes anyway? their axes are just regular power axes, right?

The ones carried by Wraithguard are +2 Strength instead, much like their power swords are +1 Strength.

Edit: Haha, GW's legal team are on the case.

[Kyban]

EDIT: ninja'd

[eldargal]

If it were lance then it would pen land raiders on 3+ instead of 5+.

Pretty huge difference honestly.
Not when you can glance things to death.

[Caitsidhe]

If it were lance then it would pen land raiders on 3+ instead of 5+.

Pretty huge difference honestly.

I know that... I'm pointing out that most Lance weapons never go beyond STR-8 anyway... so they tend to glance ARM-12 with a 4+. STR-10 kind of ends up doing the same thing. I'm not a Pollyana of any sort, more of a pragmatist. I'm just pointing out that I would be thrilled to have access to what amounts to a HARD AS HELL TO KILL STR-10 AP-2 weapons Platform.... which can actually fight too if you try to run up and silence the guns with combat. Many is the time I wish I could slip in a Vindicator but they get cut for my DP. Eldar kind of get both.

[Defenestratus]

The fact that the prism can do a str 9 AP1 lance is really sweet. Right now I think the prism takes the top spot for the HS slot just due to the fact that is incredibly flexible.

[Tyrendian]

The ones carried by Wraithguard are +2 Strength instead, much like their power swords are +1 Strength.

Edit: Haha, GW's legal team are on the case.

but they are unwieldy still, right? so no need for grenades there?

also, what case? probably not the axes...

[eris]

The fact that the prism can do a str 9 AP1 lance is really sweet. Right now I think the prism takes the top spot for the HS slot just due to the fact that is incredibly flexible.

Yep, large blast to clear out anything upto and including power armour. a long range plasma cannon equivalent for 2+ save units and the s9 lance for armour. Especially with the single shot being ap1, it means that a single prism can pose a decent threat to just about anything. Worth the extra points, for sure.

[Learn2Eel]

but they are unwieldy still, right? so no need for grenades there?

also, what case? probably not the axes...

True and true.

A blog that had the pictures up for a short while had those pages suddenly removed. Just a coincidence :o

[eldargal]

I'm very happy about the Fire Prism, it's always been one of my favourite eldar units but it's also been fairly mediocre since it was introduced.

[Defenestratus]

True and true.

A blog that had the pictures up for a short while had those pages suddenly removed. Just a coincidence :o

The original images are still available - and not even GW could get those removed unless they can control the ether of the internet.

[Tyrendian]

I'm very happy about the Fire Prism, it's always been one of my favourite eldar units but it's also been fairly mediocre since it was introduced.

hey! no Banshees! you disappoint me! :D

[Eldur]

Like most of you I'm interested in how Howling Banshees are supposed to perform as assault specialists.
First, they don't have grenades, but this is suposed to be covered by the banshee mask as before (or else, maybe reducing enemy's initiative). If not (which I doubt), they'd suffer the Incubi syndrom: attach Archon here! (if Mandrake syndrom wasn't enough). But, again, I doubt it.
Second, I've read everywhere and still I have no clear idea of what the Acrobatic rule does. It's not counter-charge (then no need for calling it another name). One thing I've read (can't recall the source, maybe in 3++comments) is that allows the Banshees for an extra charge movement... I think I'll wait and read it by myself before panicking, with the new codex on my hands.

On thing I was guessing is the Guardians vs Avengers choice for troops (I have 40guardians, 20 assault g. and 30 avengers, so I really need to think about this!). The fact that you can give the guardians a Scatter Lasser for more accuracy (free guide: disco green lasers targeting marine heads I'M IN), plus Warlocks for some protection -if you don't fail at psychic tests- in echange for +6" for avengers...
The fact is those 6" really matter: you stay shooting and running keeping you out from Rapid Fire and assault (like in 5th edition)... so it seems to me that Guardians are designed to defend positions, and Avengers to take them (mid field, enemy zone).
Obviously, both need help. Well, maybe 20 guardians with 2 scatters can stop lots of scary assaulting through Overwatch :D and a Conceal Warlock will be in there for sure.

Anyone calculated the success rate of a Ld8 psycher?

EDIT: oh, and my Black Storm Guardians are cheering! They can also get WS5 again with Enhance.. and power swords! And grenades!! I'm so happy.

[HERO]

I was able to read most of the book last night (a friend got her copy, lucky bleep) and I have to say everything looks pretty excellent. Except Banshees, which makes me cry. They are the Mandrakes of the book except worse. Even falcons, fire prisms and support batteries look good for gods sake even if they are competing heavily for slots.

Ran out of time before I got a chance to look at the background section.:(

Banshees make you cry?
LOL GET IT?

[Sersis]

Second, I've read everywhere and still I have no clear idea of what the Acrobatic rule does. It's not counter-charge (then no need for calling it another name). One thing I've read (can't recall the source, maybe in 3++comments) is that allows the Banshees for an extra charge movement... I think I'll wait and read it by myself before panicking, with the new codex on my hands.


Acrobatic gives a +3'' when you Run. So Banshees run for d6''+3 (with re-roll via Fleet)

[Defenestratus]

The fact that you can give the guardians a Scatter Lasser for more accuracy (free guide: disco green lasers targeting marine heads I'M IN)

Scatter lasers only link guns on the same *model* not the unit.

[Souba]

Acrobatic gives a +3'' when you Run. So Banshees run for d6''+3 (with re-roll via Fleet)

this and banshee masks reduce the enemys initiative by 5 (minimum 1) in the turn in wich banshees assault.

[Tyrendian]

On thing I was guessing is the Guardians vs Avengers choice for troops (I have 40guardians, 20 assault g. and 30 avengers, so I really need to think about this!). The fact that you can give the guardians a Scatter Lasser for more accuracy (free guide: disco green lasers targeting marine heads I'M IN), plus Warlocks for some protection -if you don't fail at psychic tests- in echange for +6" for avengers...
[...]
Anyone calculated the success rate of a Ld8 psycher?



doesn't work - laser targeting only helps the model firing, so no one in a guardian squad

that kind of maths is not really that hard, is it? 72,22222% :)

[eris]

I've read everywhere and still I have no clear idea of what the Acrobatic rule does.

I understand it to be +3" to any run move they make. So their total run move would be D6+3" Sadly this doesn't help them much in terms of assulting and while it does let them get across the table slightly quicker without a transport, it doesn't prevent them being casually gunned down whenever your opponent cares to do so.


The fact that you can give the guardians a Scatter Lasser for more accuracy (free guide)

Unfortunately it's 'per model', a Scatter Laser doesn't grant the rest of the unit the ability.


Anyone calculated the success rate of a Ld8 psycher?

I believe it's around 72%

[Demonus]

Avatar - Looks impressive, but will likely fail on the table. It only survived previously due to Fortune which we no longer have.

I thought Fortune was still in, just 2 Warp Charge spell now?

[IronZOGZ]

I thought Fortune was still in, just 2 Warp Charge spell now?

I think he is referring to how it is no longer a sure thing - it's just one of 6 random powers. If you take 2x Farseers and they both roll only Runes of Farseer (cant remember the name... ever) you might roll up Fortune.

[edit]

Personally, I'm thinking I'm running two Farseers with my Ulthwe, but only rolling the Farseer book powers with one of them and still rolling Divination with the second. A combination of everything except Scryer's ****ing Gaze with a combination of the codex powers (all but that stupid Death Mission power) should produce some baller, synergistic, Eldary psychic fun.

[40kGamer]

I think he is referring to how it is no longer a sure thing - it's just one of 6 random powers. If you take 2x Farseers and they both roll only Runes of Farseer (cant remember the name... ever) you might roll up Fortune.

Random seems to be the name of the game for 6th. Really frustrates "competitive" players who prefer a sure build. Eldrad has a good chance to get fortune and looks to still be nasty! :-)

[IronZOGZ]

Random seems to be the name of the game for 6th. Really frustrates "competitive" players who prefer a sure build. Eldrad has a good chance to get fortune and looks to still be nasty! :-)

I wouldn't consider myself a competitive player - who doesn't like to win a fun game? - but as an Eldar player, random is a problem. The whole point of Eldar is smooth, controlled, careful synergy. If Psychic - arguably the lynchpin in recent edition Eldar armies for your Guides, Dooms, and Fortunes - is no longer reliable, its a massive, important tool coming out of our toolbox, being bent into something we sortof recognize, and the given back. Hope it still works!

And the random in this edition makes me ****ing crazy. Charge distance should not be random. Talk about screwing melee armies.

[edit]

Just want to clarify the tone of this post - got caught up ranting about random.

I think the new book is excellent - I'm very, very happy with everything I hear about it (a bit bummed the flyers are so flimsy, but I don't own one, so they didn't take anything from me there).

I think they realized, as we all are, that the randomness of psychic is damaging to a largely BS3 (non-Aspect) Eldar army, and I believe that informed their decision to bump everything up to BS4. Guide being Primaris is insurance, but now we don't have to roll three powers knowing we must surrender one to make sure our units hit what they shoot at - it's a choice we can make but one we aren't forced to.

[HERO]

I wouldn't consider myself a competitive player - who doesn't like to win a fun game? - but as an Eldar player, random is a problem. The whole point of Eldar is smooth, controlled, careful synergy. If Psychic - arguably the lynchpin in recent edition Eldar armies for your Guides, Dooms, and Fortunes - is no longer reliable, its a massive, important tool coming out of our toolbox, being bent into something we sortof recognize, and the given back. Hope it still works!

And the random in this edition makes me ****ing crazy. Charge distance should not be random. Talk about screwing melee armies.

This, I agree with.

I don't think the spells should of been random.

[Bryan Ragland]

Maybe I am mistaken, but from what I've heard about Warp Spiders, they are better than before:

Faster: Up to 6''+2D6'' Warp Jump move during the movement phase.
I don't think that's how they work. I'm new to jet pack infantry so maybe some Tau players can clear this up. Reading the rule book it seems they move 6" along the ground as infantry, or activate their jet packs and "jump" 6" in the movement phase. So jumping or not they always move 6" in the movement phase.

[IronZOGZ]

I don't think that's how they work. I'm new to jet pack infantry so maybe some Tau players can clear this up. Reading the rule book it seems they move 6" along the ground as infantry, or activate their jet packs and "jump" 6" in the movement phase. So jumping or not they always move 6" in the movement phase.

Bryan is correct - a Jet Pack allows you to ignore terrain in the movement phase and take Dangerous checks ala Jump Packs if you enter it via Pack, but it doesn't boost movement. The Jet Pack bonus movement shows up in the Assault phase.

[Koremu]

I think he is referring to how it is no longer a sure thing - it's just one of 6 random powers. If you take 2x Farseers and they both roll only Runes of Farseer (cant remember the name... ever) you might roll up Fortune.

[edit]

Personally, I'm thinking I'm running two Farseers with my Ulthwe, but only rolling the Farseer book powers with one of them and still rolling Divination with the second. A combination of everything except Scryer's ****ing Gaze with a combination of the codex powers (all but that stupid Death Mission power) should produce some baller, synergistic, Eldary psychic fun.

Remember that - per page 418 of the BRB - Psychic Powers are rolled for one at a time, not altogether.

[calamitycal]

I wouldn't consider myself a competitive player - who doesn't like to win a fun game? - but as an Eldar player, random is a problem. The whole point of Eldar is smooth, controlled, careful synergy. If Psychic - arguably the lynchpin in recent edition Eldar armies for your Guides, Dooms, and Fortunes - is no longer reliable, its a massive, important tool coming out of our toolbox, being bent into something we sortof recognize, and the given back. Hope it still works!

And the random in this edition makes me ****ing crazy. Charge distance should not be random. Talk about screwing melee armies.

Agreed. Armies like Orks have random in them, but that random stuff is accounted for in the points costs and it's part of the army's charm. The Eldar are about synergies and you can't have synergies with randomness like that. A lot of units rely on guide, fortune, and doom to be effective and if you don't get those powers and you took those units they will be at a severe disadvantage.

I think that's my frustration with the new rules and this codex. In a vacuum random powers are a cool idea. But this game isn't played in a vacuum. It's like GW doesn't take the time to understand how their changes affect other aspects of the game. Adding lots of random elements hurt armies that rely on synergies and the Eldar rely on the more than any other army.

[40kGamer]

I wouldn't consider myself a competitive player - who doesn't like to win a fun game? - but as an Eldar player, random is a problem. The whole point of Eldar is smooth, controlled, careful synergy. If Psychic - arguably the lynchpin in recent edition Eldar armies for your Guides, Dooms, and Fortunes - is no longer reliable, its a massive, important tool coming out of our toolbox, being bent into something we sortof recognize, and the given back. Hope it still works!

And the random in this edition makes me ****ing crazy. Charge distance should not be random. Talk about screwing melee armies.

I'm a competitive hobbyist... now there's an oxymoron for you! :p 6th is proving to be quite a wild ride and has added so much randomness that it even bogs down tournament play. Hello Daemons! So far my favorite part of the new edition is the codex release schedule! For the first time I can remember updates are coming at a reasonable pace.

As far as the new codex goes I've played Eldar/Dark Eldar since before many of you were born and everything I've seen so far is a breath of fresh air into what had become a very stale codex. I'm planning to round out my tournament Eldar in a way to minimize whatever random powers my farseer rolls up. Fortune & guide were my goto powers before and now a better guide is a guarantee so I'm happy enough to take a chance on the rest. I'm sad that Banshees are still a dust collector as I've always loved the ladies... and from a hobby perspective the pics of the Wraithknight are a tad ugly. I'll be taking the razor saw & apoxiesculpt to mine to bring it more in line with the Wraithlord & Revenant.

[Defenestratus]

Bryan is correct - a Jet Pack allows you to ignore terrain in the movement phase and take Dangerous checks ala Jump Packs if you enter it via Pack, but it doesn't boost movement. The Jet Pack bonus movement shows up in the Assault phase.

The warp generator allows for 6+2D6" in the movement phase.

Doubles means one goes poof.

[Tyrendian]

Doubles means one goes poof.

so that one's still in there? nice :D I actually like that one - not too great an impact on the game and a nice bit of random nonesense that reminds us of the grimdarkyness of our universe :)

[Teffe]

Whatever anyone says: I will still use my beloved little coven of power sword-wielding banshees, this time around with an autarch added for the plasma grenades.
Having been around since the release of the old Rogue Trader, played Eldar through entire 2nd ed.. Picked 'em up again late 5th and can now again play my full Aspect list in my casual gaming community.. I will find a way to get some matches won. With a fun, non-minmaxed "spam"-list.
Trying to get a working and allround list from a new codex is always fun as hell. =)
The trick to get the Banshees to survive the overwatch in 6th is to use some other unit to charge first, meaning either they overwatch those, and the banshees get in safely. Or they take a chance, and the other unit gets into combat, denying them overwatch altogether. =)

[IronZOGZ]

Remember that - per page 418 of the BRB - Psychic Powers are rolled for one at a time, not altogether.

You are completely correct - which is most unfortunate. I mostly meant in the process of rolling up powers, we don't necessarily start off knowing we will have to give one of them up. I still haven't figured out my psychological strat for power rolling.

Again - it's a little bit easier now that we don't need Guide quite as badly. It used to go like this (with Divination):

Do I give up the first one almost blindly, hoping the next two will be good? If I roll my first one and like it, do I plan on giving up the second? What if I roll Scryer's ****ing Gaze? **** - what if I roll Scryer's ****ing Gaze, give it up for Prescience, and then roll it again (this has happened to me - I hate Scryer's ****ing Gaze)!? If I keep Scyer's Gaze, I can't roll it again, so maybe I keep it so I know I'll at least have two good ones...

Now that Guide (and Guide-Lite) are just bonus, it's less of a conflict to decide what to drop and what to keep.

[IronZOGZ]

The warp generator allows for 6+2D6" in the movement phase.

Doubles means one goes poof.

Sorry - stupid - missed that we were talking about the Warp Jump Generator. Just saw someone ask if Jet Packs allowed bonus movement in the movement phase - the answer to which is "no." What the WJG allows is another story. You seem to have the right of it.

[40kGamer]

Whatever anyone says: I will still use my beloved little coven of power sword-wielding banshees, this time around with an autarch added for the plasma grenades.
Having been around since the release of the old Rogue Trader, played Eldar through entire 2nd ed.. Picked 'em up again late 5th and can now again play my full Aspect list in my casual gaming community.. I will find a way to get some matches won. With a fun, non-minmaxed "spam"-list.
Trying to get a working and allround list from a new codex is always fun as hell. =)
The trick to get the Banshees to survive the overwatch in 6th is to use some other unit to charge first, meaning either they overwatch those, and the banshees get in safely. Or they take a chance, and the other unit gets into combat, denying them overwatch altogether. =)

I'll be playing the girls in fun basement games too... where all kinds of crazy useless models see tabletop fun! OMG look... it's a Pyrovore!!! ;)

I don't see the girls making a tournament list... I'll probably stick to Harlies!

[D6Damager]

Agreed. Armies like Orks have random in them, but that random stuff is accounted for in the points costs and it's part of the army's charm. The Eldar are about synergies and you can't have synergies with randomness like that. A lot of units rely on guide, fortune, and doom to be effective and if you don't get those powers and you took those units they will be at a severe disadvantage.

I think that's my frustration with the new rules and this codex. In a vacuum random powers are a cool idea. But this game isn't played in a vacuum. It's like GW doesn't take the time to understand how their changes affect other aspects of the game. Adding lots of random elements hurt armies that rely on synergies and the Eldar rely on the more than any other army.

Eldar have always been a finesse army with using each specialist unit to do what they do best vs. the units of your opponents army by either shooting, close combat, or psychic defense.

The biggest changes are our ability to mitigate damage. They gave us Battle Focus and Wraith_____s as troops to try and compensate.

We lost psychic defense. Its now the same as everyone else except for a 1 shot item.

We lost guaranteed Fortune to protect damage dealers like the Avatar and Jetseers.

[Defenestratus]

When I run a reserve-heavy list - I tend to find Scryer's Gaze really useful - especially if I haven't blown up the quad gun yet :P

[D6Damager]

Whatever anyone says: I will still use my beloved little coven of power sword-wielding banshees, this time around with an autarch added for the plasma grenades.

You would need a Dark Eldar Archon with PGL to do what you're talking about.

[Teffe]

You would need a Dark Eldar Archon with PGL to do what you're talking about.

That's where my Storm Guardians come into play, screening and doing the first charge. So full init on my girls and no overwatch. ;)

Then again, none of us play super-spammy tournament lists. Which makes the game actually fun and less focus on the negativity that is always around, heh. :D

[IronZOGZ]

ninja'd

[Pssyche]

When I run a reserve-heavy list - I tend to find Scryer's Gaze really useful - especially if I haven't blown up the quad gun yet :P

Scryer's Gaze?
That's been EXACTLY my thing, too.
You are pretty much guaranteed to bring on all your Reserves on Turn Two.
And choose which Flank you want your Flanking Units to enter play from.

What's not to like about bringing on Squadrons of War Walkers and Hornets on whichever Flank you wish on Turn 2?

[eris]

The Eldar are about synergies and you can't have synergies with randomness like that. A lot of units rely on guide, fortune, and doom to be effective and if you don't get those powers and you took those units they will be at a severe disadvantage.

Aye. This is why of the two lists I've sketched together to try out, one has no psykers at all and the other just has a 'conceal' spiritseer to get access to the wraiths as troops and to support some guardians. I can't build a list around the powers anymore, so they seem like more of an add on if you have the points and you don't have anything better to do (which we pretty much always will have).

[Carstens]

Aye loving scryers gaze aswell, there's nothing like keeping a single guardian unit in reserves and having them ready to support your entire deployment zone. Granted it helps that I roll it so often that I almost consider it a primaries power. :P

[40kGamer]

Aye. This is why of the two lists I've sketched together to try out, one has no psykers at all and the other just has a 'conceal' spiritseer to get access to the wraiths as troops and to support some guardians. I can't build a list around the powers anymore, so they seem like more of an add on if you have the points and you don't have anything better to do (which we pretty much always will have).

If everyone wants guaranteed powers you can still take a wraithseer... just sayin. ;)

[D6Damager]

If everyone wants guaranteed powers you can still take a wraithseer... just sayin. ;)

Dunno...Forgeworld was pretty quick about putting out the Tau update.

[DrLove42]

I messaged FW this morning. They're putting out a PDF or a new book out as soon as they "get a copy of the codex" to read

[Aramel]

Earlier someone mentioned that Shining Spears do not have grenades. All jetbikes ignore terrain (but take dangerous) when charging through terrain, making greandes unecessary. Spears have easy access to skilled rider (or have it base, I forget), so that's not really an issue for them either. If the guardians and warlocks now have I5 that is pretty significant for jetbike lists. Although expensive, it seems that jetbike council is the best way to semi-reliably get and use all the Battle powers. As someone else pointed out, having a 2+ armour save will almost shore up the gap on those days when you just can't seem to roll a 5. Combined with puting farseers in front and healing their wounds, you might as well have fortune... Just don't fail your look out sir and die from str 8 weapons...

I definately have visions of warlocks dying in droves from perils, but realistically it only should happen once a game if at all. As for ld 8, 75% chance or so is not the end of the world I suppose, but I guess you can roll on command and pray for a 1 (really wish Warlord traits had a primaris mechanic). Maybe the Ulthwe supplement will enable more reliable power choosing. Honestly, I'd be happy with using the same mechanic as fantasy for choosing powers, the current system is simply absurd. I imagine we will have a better idea of what to expect from the supplements once Iyanden's is released (maybe warlocks will be able to join their wraithguard...)

[Koremu]

Can you only put 1 Warlock in each Guardian Squad?

[40kGamer]

Dunno...Forgeworld was pretty quick about putting out the Tau update.

Is that where they updated IA3? I haven't followed the FW Tau updates very closely... In his current life the Wraithseer's a beast!

[SeekingOne]

All jetbikes ignore terrain (but take dangerous) when charging through terrain, making greandes unecessary. Spears have easy access to skilled rider (or have it base, I forget), so that's not really an issue for them either.

Rulebook, page 22, paragraph "Charging through difficult terrain".
It clearly says that if at least one model moves through difficult terrain on charge, the whole unit strikes at I1. I see nothing that would somehow make bikes exempt from this rule.

[40kGamer]

Rulebook, page 22, paragraph "Charging through difficult terrain".
It clearly says that if at least one model moves through difficult terrain on charge, the whole unit strikes at I1. I see nothing that would somehow make bikes exempt from this rule.

I know bikes/jetbikes ignore terrain as far as the movement is concerned. Never thought about the Initiative issue as I have only done it with marine bikers who basically have batman's utility belt.

[SeekingOne]

Yeah, that's the problem - somehow Eldar aspect warriors are too proud to carry their utility belts into battle.

[40kGamer]

Yeah, that's the problem - somehow Eldar aspect warriors are too proud to carry their utility belts into battle.

I guess it just isn't proper Eldar fashion... plus it wouldn't be fair to the mon-keigh to kill them all before they got to act. Many marine players would actually have a roll around on the floor hissy fit if this happened!

[Kyban]

I know bikes/jetbikes ignore terrain as far as the movement is concerned. Never thought about the Initiative issue as I have only done it with marine bikers who basically have batman's utility belt.

FAQ takes care of it:
Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrain when moving or charging
still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through difficult terrain?
(p22)
A: Yes.

[isotope99]

Unless you are charging a dedicated assault unit in terrain (unlikely) or a particularly strong in CC regular unit (grey knights and grey hunters come to mind), the lack of grenades for the bikes isn't so bad, they get to fire on the way in, then hammer of wrath, then they take a few hits (probably lose 1 model max) then they get to strike hard. Not helpful for sure, especially when added to overwatch, but far from fatal compared to the Banshees.

Grenades on bikes is a bit silly anyway, when you think about the image, surprised even marines still have them.

[DarkLink]

Not when you can glance things to death.

With lance you could glance stuff to death on a 2+, though.


I'm very happy about the Fire Prism, it's always been one of my favourite eldar units but it's also been fairly mediocre since it was introduced.

Not as cool as the warp hunter:cool:.


doesn't work - laser targeting only helps the model firing, so no one in a guardian squad

that kind of maths is not really that hard, is it? 72,22222% :)

For reference, if anyone doesn't already know, there are 36 possible results on 2D6, from 2 to 12. There's 1 way to roll a 2 (double 1's), 2 ways to roll a 3 (a 1 and a 2, and a 2 and a 1), 3 ways to roll a 4 (two 2's, or 1/3, or 3/1), etc, up to 6 ways to roll a 7, then back down to 1 way to roll a 12.

Add up those numbers, and divide by 36. To fail at Ld 8, you need to roll a 12, 11, 10, or 9. That's (1+2+3+4)/36=.2777777777777777777. Subtract from 1.0 and you get 0.72222222222, or 72%.


This, I agree with.

I don't think the spells should of been random.

And while Eldar are particuarly reliant on synergy, all other armies benefit from it as well, plus it adds tactical depth to the game. Random psychic powers, along with some of the other random stuff GW's obsessed with, takes away some finesse from the game.


I'm a competitive hobbyist... now there's an oxymoron for you! :p

I've met quite a few, actually. Believe it or not, a lot of tournament players fall into this category. Far more so than how many fall into the WAAC category.

[SeekingOne]

then hammer of wrath
Oh yes, our mighty Hammer of Wrath at S3... :)


Grenades on bikes is a bit silly anyway, when you think about the image, surprised even marines still have them.

Well, if you look at it from this perspective, the whole thing with bikers being engaged in melee is a bit silly in the first place.

[40kGamer]

Not as cool as the warp hunter:cool:.

The Warp Hunter is Chuck Norris cool. :cool: I've loved that tank since Epic days... not super effective in 40k but still.

[Defenestratus]

The Warp Hunter is Chuck Norris cool. :cool: I've loved that tank since Epic days... not super effective in 40k but still.

WTF are you talking about not effective in 40k?

That thing is pure f-ing death on the table top.

[D6Damager]

The Warp Hunter is Chuck Norris cool. :cool: I've loved that tank since Epic days... not super effective in 40k but still.

Warphunters are seriously OP. Dunno what version you are thinking of.

[40kGamer]

WTF are you talking about not effective in 40k?

That thing is pure f-ing death on the table top.

It is when it shoots. Problem I've seen is that it's such a high priority target that it's either shaken or dead in turn 1. Nobody wants that big pie plate of death coming down...

[Defenestratus]

It is when it shoots. Problem I've seen is that it's such a high priority target that it's either shaken or dead in turn 1. Nobody wants that big pie plate of death coming down...

Thats why you take three.

[eris]

Thats why you take three.

I don't know whether to laugh or facepalm. :D

[Caitsidhe]

Thats why you take three.

The standard CSM player's answer about Helldrakes.

[40kGamer]

Thats why you take three.

:eek: Lol! That would be vicious... one bad match up would be Lucius spam, but that's bad for lots of things!

[DarkLink]

A 36" Barrage Large Blast D-cannon on a Fast Skimmer? With an alternative pseudo-Torrent Flamer mode? Win. I can only pray more tournaments start allowing Forgeworld.

The Wraithknight might be even more awesome, though, we'll see. That just means double FOC with three of each, though;).

[Defenestratus]

The standard CSM player's answer about Helldrakes.

No, thats what three nightwings are for :)

[Caldera02]

so the Knight can have 4 weapons but only shoot 2? No special rule to overwrite the default MC rule? Flipping Gdub, not making sense again...

[40kGamer]

No, thats what three nightwings are for :)

I'm lazy and only run 2 nightwings... the 2+ jink annoys the **** out of almost everyone!

[Defenestratus]

I'm lazy and only run 2 nightwings... the 2+ jink annoys the **** out of almost everyone!

Yes - yes they do.

I had to stop using three nightwings and three phoenixes in my lists because it was seriously not fun to play against.

I was asked specifically by the store owner to use it against an aircron spamming douchebag that he hated and wanted to drive out of the store - so I obliged him and made the poor college kid never come back :P

[40kGamer]

Yes - yes they do.

I had to stop using three nightwings and three phoenixes in my lists because it was seriously not fun to play against.

I was asked specifically by the store owner to use it against an aircron spamming douchebag that he hated and wanted to drive out of the store - so I obliged him and made the poor college kid never come back :P

:D Now that's really funny! Cron airforce is so annoying for most everyone! I really, really try to resist the urge to spam but competitively it's hard not to!!! I haven't painted my Phoenix bombers just yet... wasn't sure they'd be worth the points or not. I believe they jink on a 3+??

Sadly I think the new flyers will not stack up to their FW cousins at all.

[Tyrendian]

Yes - yes they do.

I had to stop using three nightwings and three phoenixes in my lists because it was seriously not fun to play against.

I was asked specifically by the store owner to use it against an aircron spamming douchebag that he hated and wanted to drive out of the store - so I obliged him and made the poor college kid never come back :P

well done there :)
Nightwings are a tad too expensive cash wise for my liking though... probably gonna keep using my converted DE flyer as my phoenix and proxy the new one as a nightwing as needed (advantages of a friendly casual environment^^ we recently had a Trygon proxy'ing for a Riptide because the tau player was too lazy to build it in time :D )

[Sonikgav]

So with the change to Scatter Lasers what would people say is the best loadout for things like Wraithlords/Warwalkers etc?

I was gonna go with Double BrightLance on my WraithLords but im kinda tempted by Laser + Lance. 2 Shots or 1 Twin Linked with the additional shots the Laser provides?

[Tyrendian]

So with the change to Scatter Lasers what would people say is the best loadout for things like Wraithlords/Warwalkers etc?

I was gonna go with Double BrightLance on my WraithLords but im kinda tempted by Laser + Lance. 2 Shots or 1 Twin Linked with the additional shots the Laser provides?

I'd say LaserLance is better against most things, except for heavy vehicles and TEQ... surprise there! :P

[40kGamer]

I'm liking the idea of laser/lance for dual purpose wraithlords and walkers... may change it up after seeing how it performs!

[Archon Charybdis]

My concern with the Scatter Laser/Bright Lance combo is a lot of the stuff you want to point a BL at a scatter laser is going to bounce right off. If it's as cheap as I hear though, it's probably still worthwhile to think of it as a cheap way of TL the bright lance, and also having some versatility against infantry and light vehicles.

[AttemptedM]

I know what the translation said, but the big selling point for the SL will be if the wording is model or unit. If its model then laser lance is probably awesome, or laser star cannon if you face a lot of TEQ. But if its unit, then only one walker needs it. The other 2 can have dual BL. Will also be sweet for guardians.

At the moment I'm thinking wave serpents are going to be sweet. 3 or 4 of them moving 24" with Scatters and shuricannons of death. Then next turn hop out and pop with AP2 flamer wraiths or S10 AP2 wraiths. That's some nasty AV12 in your face. Even tau will be hard pressed to break through all of that with serpent shield.

Edit- oh, and if they do wreck it, you get to hide behind the wreck for a turn.

[bfmusashi]

Yeah, that's the problem - somehow Eldar aspect warriors are too proud to carry their utility belts into battle.

Sadly, the temple of the Avenging Bat aspect brooded themselves out of existence.

[Defenestratus]

Sadly I think the new flyers will not stack up to their FW cousins at all.

Phoenix's do jink on a 3+ and beware the temptation to put nightfire missiles on them since they can't shoot after you evade due to snapfire rules. I usually run one with nightfire and two with typical PML's.

The new flyers are horrible compared to their FW cousins. I hope and pray dearly that FW doesn't nerf the nightwings down to the crimson hunter level. I have a feeling they will but I hold out hope....

[Power Klawz]

Sadly, the temple of the Avenging Bat aspect brooded themselves out of existence.

Their Phoenix Lord, Bryce Waynestar, was last seen shaking down the scum of Commorragh while searching for answers to the mystery of who killed his parents.

[SeekingOne]

I know what the translation said, but the big selling point for the SL will be if the wording is model or unit.
It's model. I read the English codex page.

[Teffe]

I know what the translation said, but the big selling point for the SL will be if the wording is model or unit.

"Laser Lock(pg 62): Roll to hit with this weapon first. If it hits, all other weapons on that model are twin-linked for the rest of the phase."
Straight from the 'dex. Will not link to image site for BoLS safety issue with copyrights etc. ;)

[HERO]

So how fast do you think FW will errata IA11 to meet the new Eldar codex? A TON of things have changed. The Holo-fields priced at 35 for example. Will these change?

[Mysterion]

Their Phoenix Lord, Bryce Waynestar, was last seen shaking down the scum of Commorragh while searching for answers to the mystery of who killed his parents.

The real 40k Batman is so Night Haunter:D

[eris]

I ran war walkers often with the old codex, usually with a full unit of all scatters and a full unit of all starcannons. Even tho both are s6, they have very different targets depending on what's available. Scatters can glance light/med vehicles to death quite reliably, while starcannons are wasted on that. Starcannons destroy termies and MEQ, where as scatters are only good against the 2nd of those and are largely wasted on termies (by which i mean they will almost always be able to find a target they can hurt more).

With the new 'dex I have considered mixing scatters and starcannons, one of each per walker, but it does dilute each unit. Despite the twin linking of the starcannon, neither unit is as good at their task as they were before.

e.g.
24 s6 shots from pure scatter walkers should put 3 glances on av12.
18 s6 shots from star/scatter walkers should only put 2 on av12.
A significant differnce as one will require another turn or source of shooting to kill a standard 3hp vehicle.

12 s6 ap2 shots from pure starcannon walkers should kill 4 termies (5++, not 3++).
18 s6 shots from from the mixed walkers should kill maybe 4 termies (5++, not 3++).
Less of a difference, tho the pure starcannons are nearer 4.5 but that's pretty minimal.

Against MEQ they're virtually identical.

So pure scatter looks like it still has value, but pure starcannons seem like they could be replaced with star/scatter quite comfortably, and you have the extra 6 shots for throwing at hordes, vehicles or fliers if need be.

[AttemptedM]

I ran war walkers often with the old codex, usually with a full unit of all scatters and a full unit of all starcannons. Even tho both are s6, they have very different targets depending on what's available. Scatters can glance light/med vehicles to death quite reliably, while starcannons are wasted on that. Starcannons destroy termies and MEQ, where as scatters are only good against the 2nd of those and are largely wasted on termies (by which i mean they will almost always be able to find a target they can hurt more).

With the new 'dex I have considered mixing scatters and starcannons, one of each per walker, but it does dilute each unit. Despite the twin linking of the starcannon, neither unit is as good at their task as they were before.

e.g.
24 s6 shots from pure scatter walkers should put 3 glances on av12.
18 s6 shots from star/scatter walkers should only put 2 on av12.
A significant differnce as one will require another turn or source of shooting to kill a standard 3hp vehicle.

12 s6 ap2 shots from pure starcannon walkers should kill 4 termies (5++, not 3++).
18 s6 shots from from the mixed walkers should kill maybe 4 termies (5++, not 3++).
Less of a difference, tho the pure starcannons are nearer 4.5 but that's pretty minimal.

Against MEQ they're virtually identical.

So pure scatter looks like it still has value, but pure starcannons seem like they could be replaced with star/scatter quite comfortably, and you have the extra 6 shots for throwing at hordes, vehicles or fliers if need be.

Are you taking into account the new BS4 and the twin-linked shots granted by the scatter laser? Just curious

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Totally NOT holding the codex right now. Jus' sayin'.

[Bitrider]

Totally NOT holding the codex right now. Jus' sayin'.

Is it a ..green one?

[Sonikgav]

Is 210 Points a little too much for a unit you intend to sit on an Objective and dare someone to come take? I think Scythe Wielding Wraithguard could do more but i guess id have to invest in some Transport...

From the look i got at the book earlier my list has 35 Wraithguard/Blades, 5 Rangers, 2 Laser/Lance WraithLords and a naked Spiritseer. Just hit 1620 of my 1800 allowance.

Either more Range/Fast Attack or a Wave Serpent i think.

[SeekingOne]

So am I getting it right that the codex has practically zero usable AA options? Crimson Hunters are useless due to AV10, Walkers with flakk have insane cost, and... that's all we have, right? Or am I missing something?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Is it a ..green one?

Regular, I didn't even get the collector's ed for my own army.

[eris]

Are you taking into account the new BS4 and the twin-linked shots granted by the scatter laser? Just curious

yep

[Sonikgav]

So am I getting it right that the codex has practically zero usable AA options? Crimson Hunters are useless due to AV10, Walkers with flakk have insane cost, and... that's all we have, right? Or am I missing something?

Yeah from what i can tell, even Dark Reapers are Anti Infantry more than anything although the Exarch can get Flakk Missiles and Fast Shot so for an extra 40 points on the unit, 1 model in the can get 2 Skyfire Shots at BS5 - S7.

[eris]

So am I getting it right that the codex has practically zero usable AA options? Crimson Hunters are useless due to AV10, Walkers with flakk have insane cost, and... that's all we have, right? Or am I missing something?

You can take massively expensive war walkers too.. ;)

I'm thinking our main 'viable' anti-air comes from volume of fire. Between the s6 scatter lasers, and the s7 potential of wave serpent shield discharges, we can hope to get enough hits on a 6 (throw in guide support if it's available) to put a dent in a few things. It's far from ideal, but it's somewhat cost effective given that we can use them against every other unit in the game as well. Cron flier spam just looks like it'll be really painful, but speed and avoidance might be our best friends there.

[AttemptedM]

They really want you to use allies. Luck for eldar they are BFFs with tau. Who can get sky fire in at least elite and hs and HQ force org slots. Not sure in FA, but there's always the quadgun. That's 4 good sources.

[Sonikgav]

Ok, so my first draft 1800 point list has 40 models... 35 of them are Wraithguard.

Looks like im gonna be giving those Terminator lists a run for their money lol

[AttemptedM]

Actually, anyone know the rules if both you and your opponent are b2b with the quadgun? Cause if your opponent brings one and you bring illic can you deploy him touching the other side? 4 shots allocating all wounds at BS god?

Not sure it's the best tactic, but if he's guard and has the gun in the corner lightly defended or has a LR with visible rear armor where the QG cab hit it... Just something to keep in the back pocket.

Edit- after more thought: fortifications get placed before either player deploys. So if he has them, and you deploy first...

[D6Damager]

So am I getting it right that the codex has practically zero usable AA options? Crimson Hunters are useless due to AV10, Walkers with flakk have insane cost, and... that's all we have, right? Or am I missing something?

I think the crimson hunter exarch will do fine against enemy flyers with proper use of vector dancer and of course eliminating any gun emplacements. I think this is why the autarchs have a stackable reserve manipulation ability now. I would take 2 for redundancy though.

[Sonikgav]

Sooo how long till we see the first "3 Riptides and a Wraithknight" Allies list? Or Vice-Versa?

I think a Spiritseer, a unit of 5 ScytheGuards in a kitted out Wave Serpent and a Sword/Shield Wraithknight (with Double Shoulder Starcannons) works out at - 710 points.

3 Riptides with Accelerators, Skyfire and Interceptor each take it upto 1340... add Tau HQ and infantry to taste.... ;)

Between Rangers, Sniper Drones and Kroot you could probably make a nasty Sniper list too.

[40kGamer]

Phoenix's do jink on a 3+ and beware the temptation to put nightfire missiles on them since they can't shoot after you evade due to snapfire rules. I usually run one with nightfire and two with typical PML's.

The new flyers are horrible compared to their FW cousins. I hope and pray dearly that FW doesn't nerf the nightwings down to the crimson hunter level. I have a feeling they will but I hold out hope....

I'm with you there! I actually thought the FW fliers were overpriced when I first started using them. Now my fingers are crossed that they leave the Eldar fliers alone... They are in IAA so maybe... just maybe! :rolleyes:

[Defenestratus]

I think the crimson hunter exarch will do fine against enemy flyers with proper use of vector dancer and of course eliminating any gun emplacements. I think this is why the autarchs have a stackable reserve manipulation ability now. I would take 2 for redundancy though.

So "the purple people eater will do fine in an AA role as long as all your enemy's AA is dead."

Got it. Sounds like a steal at 160 points bone stock.

/s

[40kGamer]

I think the crimson hunter exarch will do fine against enemy flyers with proper use of vector dancer and of course eliminating any gun emplacements. I think this is why the autarchs have a stackable reserve manipulation ability now. I would take 2 for redundancy though.

I guess it beats nothing but I'll pass for now... :p

[Eldar_Atog]

So when do the digital codexes become available? Friday night at midnight in England? Was hoping to be able to build a list before I get to the store on Saturday. It's always a pain to hand write a list... especially with a new codex.

[DarkLink]

So am I getting it right that the codex has practically zero usable AA options? Crimson Hunters are useless due to AV10, Walkers with flakk have insane cost, and... that's all we have, right? Or am I missing something?

Tau allies. I guess.

[Mkvenner]

Tau allies. I guess.

Winner winnner, chicken dinner.

[daboarder]

so what does skyhunter and perfect shot do on the crimson hunter?

I mean that thing is putting out 4 BS4/5 S8 Ap2 shots.....with vector dancer thats going to screw fliers up.

[Power Klawz]

so what does skyhunter and perfect shot do on the crimson hunter?

I mean that thing is putting out 4 BS4/5 S8 Ap2 shots.....with vector dancer thats going to screw fliers up.

SHHH! AV 10 makes them unplayable, you should be ashamed!

Because of course most armies are spamming their overpriced ground based anti air like there's no tomorrow right? Oh and flakk gun emplacements are immortal as well, obviously. Its not like a vector dancing flyer with BS5 and 4 str8 shots a turn that you can pretty well dictate the arrival turn of will ever make an impact in the air superiority arena... no way no how.

[daboarder]

haha I know right, so much concrete needed here.

My favourite crimson hunter tactic to date is to fly up to the opponents board edge, turn, then spend the game sliding laterally from side to side due to vector dancer.


And what is ghostbreaker on the wraith hunter? I mean with confirmed terrify that's not bad at all. has the potential to be more devastating than a heldrake.

Terrify a unit, force it to fall back, then shoot it with those cannons....fall back again buddy!

[Power Klawz]

Deadly but fragile, eldar are not marines etc. etc.

If you can't manage to coordinate enough fire to remove anti air threats by turn 3 you probably shouldn't be playing with eldar honestly. They don't have flying land raiders that can tank lascannon shots like a boss, they have flying death machines that will slag flying land raiders in a heartbeat, but will die to massed bolter fire if you fatfinger the controls.

[daboarder]

well put.

[Mkvenner]

Crimson Hunter gets reroll penetrations that are not Glances or Penetrates against Flyers. Perfect Strike, is Precision Shots on a 6.

I still like it. 4 Str 8 shots with 2 having the Lance special Rule. Oh what a fusillade that is.

[eldargal]

If someone is being a b!tch using quad guns a lot, be a b!tch right back and put LOS blocking terrain right in front of it. You can usually reduce its field of fire by at least 50% giving your flyers big areas in which to work relatively unmolested.

[Mkvenner]

I'm liking the idea of how quickly we can get in someone's face. Scorpions and Rangers with Infiltrate. Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks Deep Striking. Outflanking Wraithguard. It's looking mighty fine.

[eldargal]

Karandras could legally infilitrate a unit of d-cannon support batteries up to enemy lines as someone has pointed out on Warseer. Imagine the turn one obliterfrication.:rolleyes:

[SeekingOne]

Deadly but fragile, eldar are not marines etc. etc.

If you can't manage to coordinate enough fire to remove anti air threats by turn 3 you probably shouldn't be playing with eldar honestly.
Oh really? You're not kidding me, right? Damn, I thought there should be an easy explanation to everything, somewhere. I guess I've just been enlightened... Thank you ever so much, kind sir.


Crimson Hunter gets reroll penetrations that are not Glances or Penetrates against Flyers. Perfect Strike, is Precision Shots on a 6.

I still like it. 4 Str 8 shots with 2 having the Lance special Rule.

Considering that no flyers in the game have AV above 12, Lance rule is certainly the most useful rule for AA combat. About as mighty useful as Precision Shots :D

[Mkvenner]

Karandras could legally infilitrate a unit of d-cannon support batteries up to enemy lines as someone has pointed out on Warseer. Imagine the turn one obliterfrication.:rolleyes:

I thought there was a discrepancy between the unit already being deployed and the HQ can not join them. Which means they can not infiltrate together. Outflanking, they can do that.

[daboarder]

Oh really? You're not kidding me, right? Damn, I thought there should be an easy explanation to everything, somewhere. I guess I've just been enlightened... Thank you ever so much, kind sir.


Considering that no flyers in the game have AV above 12, Lance rule is certainly the most useful rule for AA combat. About as mighty useful as Precision Shots :D

Harden up princess

S8 is pretty awesome mate. and straffing tanks with the lances is cool.


I thought there was a discrepancy between the unit already being deployed and the HQ can not join them. Which means they can not infiltrate together. Outflanking, they can do that.

huh?

well for reference remember Shrike drags fleeting Infiltrating THSS terminators around with him

[Mkvenner]

huh?

well for reference remember Shrike drags fleeting Infiltrating THSS terminators around with him

I always thought that you could join an HQ to a unit and Infiltrate forward. However, there are folks saying it can't be done. I don't have my BYB on me so I can not clarify.

[SeekingOne]

Harden up princess
Ever heard of such thing as "sarcasm"? :)


S8 is pretty awesome mate. and straffing tanks with the lances is cool.
As long as your unit is alive to actually do it. But this was discussed already, no point in repeating it.

[daboarder]

I always thought that you could join an HQ to a unit and Infiltrate forward. However, there are folks saying it can't be done. I don't have my BYB on me so I can not clarify.

Without getting into detail the premise is based upon the idea that you can only join during "deployment" but infiltrating apparently isn't deployment. Its a stupid argument really. it would mean that IC's cannot join even other infiltrating units.

[Mkvenner]

Without getting into detail the premise is based upon the idea that you can only join during "deployment" but infiltrating apparently isn't deployment. Its a stupid argument really. it would mean that IC's cannot join even other infiltrating units.

That sounds like a load of grunk. Infiltration is still deploying... Yeah, I would play it that people can Infiltrate with units forward. Shadowsun with Plasma Crisis Teams, Karandras with Wraithguard, and Shrike with Hammernators.

[daboarder]

That sounds like a load of grunk. Infiltration is still deploying... Yeah, I would play it that people can Infiltrate with units forward. Shadowsun with Plasma Crisis Teams, Karandras with Wraithguard, and Shrike with Hammernators.

not to mention that if you know the enemy is going to do that, its not hard to nullify it with the appropriate deployment.

[DarkLink]

Well, at its worse, Infiltrate can get you a free 6" move out of your deployment zone.

[Carstens]

Without getting into detail the premise is based upon the idea that you can only join during "deployment" but infiltrating apparently isn't deployment. Its a stupid argument really. it would mean that IC's cannot join even other infiltrating units.

Thats not really the argument (at least only half of it). There's 2 ways of having a IC join a unit during deployment.

1. Put both in reserves and declare that they are joind. (unit and IC are now in reserve and can't inflitrate, though can still outflank)

2. Place the IC within in unit coherency during deployment. The only way to place an IC in unit coherency with a unit is if that unit is already deployed. And if it's already deployed there's no way to make use of the IC's inflitrate.

-You could argue that a unit can join an IC by being deployed next to him aswell, but since you have no way of keeping a unit with out infiltrate undeployed, and not in reserves, until the Infiltrate step that doesn't help either.

[Valorel]

Use the Reveal power (the opposite of Conceal) as it removes cover. I have no idea about the range of that power, but it could work.Good luck. Statistically speaking you could play up to 6 games before you roll for that power.

A bit late on the party, but it's not that hard to roll for a primaris power, you know.. Statistically it's like 100% success rate.

But it doesn't change the fact that you are right for the usefulness of the "combo" as reveal doesn't take away cover save, but the stealth and shrouded special rule, and the quadgun has neither.

[Eldur]

Just realized that if Battle Trance rule meaned that running moves had not penalties to shoot and/or ASSAULT, then things would get really good (specially for Banshees).
Ah... maybe in a parallel universe, who knows.


EDIT: and for the Karandras + D-cannons issue (from Eldargal idea, but I read it before and could be done with the current codex, which is 1 day from retirement btw), a character without infiltration can join a infiltrating unit, but they lose the ability to infiltrate (but can still outflank). If an infiltrating character joins a non-infiltrating unit (i.e. Karandras+wraithguard/wraithblades/support weapons/other) they all can infiltrate and outflank.

But I'm expecting Phoenix lords to gain the same rule as Drazhar: he cannot join units apart from Incubi. Then you couldn't use the Karandras combo, which also gives you +3 to cover.

[Freakeh]

Is it just me or is the cost vs damage output for the wraithknight really out of whack? your paying quite a huge amount of points for not really very much potential damage..

[SeekingOne]

But I'm expecting Phoenix lords to gain the same rule as Drazhar: he cannot join units apart from Incubi. Then you couldn't use the Karandras combo, which also gives you +3 to cover.
Absolutely. This restriction is long-existing, and seeing as the new 'dex doesn't give us easy time on almost anything (except GJBs), I wouldn't expect it to be removed.


Is it just me or is the cost vs damage output for the wraithknight really out of whack? your paying quite a huge amount of points for not really very much potential damage..
A WK can crack a few tough things in melee, but his firepower is indeed lackluster for its points.

[murgel]

I have done quite some thinking *yes, I know. "take cover the apocalypse is coming" HA bloody HA.*

With how the codex seems to be done, especially the stat boost, it looks like I will achieve my goal of making a list work at an acceptable level without a single Farseer as powers are random, "Guide" is less important than before and with the various small tweaks many units can do without that support, if properly handled.

When looking at the massive number of units important for a working warhost and the points they cost it is now absolutely obvious to me that GW wants the regular games to be 2,5 - 3k games with 2 FOCs. The massive number of attractive or essential HS and FA leaves no alternate conclusion.

*obligatory Banshee* ;)
Fix: remove the minimum remaining INI restriction of 1. a unit with ini 0 does not have that and can do nothing. Banshees fixed.

[eris]

Just realized that if Battle Trance rule meaned that running moves had not penalties to shoot and/or ASSAULT, then things would get really good (specially for Banshees).
Ah... maybe in a parallel universe, who knows.

sadly the wording is very specific:
shoot then run, or run that shoot, but not with heavy weapons. and if doing both you must do both before moving on to the next unit.

[eris]

*obligatory Banshee* ;)
Fix: remove the minimum remaining INI restriction of 1. a unit with ini 0 does not have that and can do nothing. Banshees fixed.

I'm pretty sure that would mean daemons (slaaneshi iirc) could permanently prevent someone from being able to hit thru using their abilities. ;)

[eris]

So, the Illic infiltrate.

His rule states that he has the infiltrate special rule and can be deployed anywhere, regardless of enemy proximity.
Infiltrate USR says that that Infiltrate will pass to any unit he joins, however the 2nd part (deploy regardless of proximity) is not part of infilrate, it's specific to just him, so would not pass to the unit as far as i can tell.

So.. some fun possibilities..
dire avengers for some semi-rend goodness (nice and cheap and have counter-attack)
warp spiders for s6 shots potentially on rear armour given their movement distance (gogo first blood, and easy to use differently if you don't get first turn)
warlock jetbike council with spears for 9x s9 shots (incredibly expensive and might die to bolters tho)
support battery with d-cannons giving you 3x s10 ap2 small blasts in range on turn 1 (seems fun, parked in cover, potentially with guide support, illic also has splitfire from his warlord trait, so you could fire 1 of the 2 d-cannons at a 2nd target!)

[Deadlift]

Lucky me, codex arrived today. Just flicking though now. Artwork is lovely.

[lattd]

Deadlift can you give us a run through of the autuarch there has been very little in the rumours about him?

[Eldur]

I wouldn't care watching the artwork. I'll just read ALL the rules by myself just to be sure (rumours are rumours), and maybe uncover something useful that could've been ignored.

Damn you for getting the codex so soon!!! envy level over 9000!!!

[pauljc]

Banshee nope.:p

I don't fully understand the disappointment with Banshees. The Exarch can now potentiall disarm folk, can get a 3+ Invulnerable save. The unit can be buffed to S4. The Exarch can cause Fear. And the Banshee Mask is now a straight up -5 debuff to the target's initiative, with no rolling required! And they're cheaper.

Combined with several other options in the Eldar army (which yes, requires some luck to get) for pinning and debuffing your target's Leadership, AND Banshee's natural Acrobatics special rule, I'm not seeing the downside.

Yes, they are still toughness 3, and fall over when Marines look at them funny.

Oh yeah, there area also options to buff and debuff Toughness, Armour save... I mean, if you've got a few Warlocks nearby when these girls charge, then things will get messy for your opponent for sure.

Banshees aren't for tanking Terminators. They never were. And I know they don't have an assault transport (they would be too good). But there are sooooo many combos to be made. So many viable strategies for getting them into combat! And I've only had the book a couple days. I'm not even the smartest player! :D

I just don't understand the disappointment. Please explain.

[Teffe]

Deadlift can you give us a run through of the autuarch there has been very little in the rumours about him?

Autarch is 70p in his undies, comes with 3+sv, pistol, haywire+plasmagrenades and a forceshield.
SR: Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Fleet, IC, Path of Strategy(+1/-1 reserve rolls).
Can take jet bike, hawk wings or jump gen.
Can take either banshee mask of mandiblaster
Can take two of:
Scorpion chainsword, Avenger catapult, Lasblaster, Deathspinner, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance(only on bike), Power Weapon, Reaper Launcher with starwarm missiles.
Can also take items from remnants of glory.

[lattd]

Autuarch with mandiblaster, power weapon in with banshees makes them a bit better on the charge but loose their speed boost.

[Koremu]

I don't fully understand the disappointment with Banshees. The Exarch can now potentiall disarm folk, can get a 3+ Invulnerable save. The unit can be buffed to S4. The Exarch can cause Fear. And the Banshee Mask is now a straight up -5 debuff to the target's initiative, with no rolling required! And they're cheaper.

Combined with several other options in the Eldar army (which yes, requires some luck to get) for pinning and debuffing your target's Leadership, AND Banshee's natural Acrobatics special rule, I'm not seeing the downside.

Yes, they are still toughness 3, and fall over when Marines look at them funny.

Oh yeah, there area also options to buff and debuff Toughness, Armour save... I mean, if you've got a few Warlocks nearby when these girls charge, then things will get messy for your opponent for sure.

Banshees aren't for tanking Terminators. They never were. And I know they don't have an assault transport (they would be too good). But there are sooooo many combos to be made. So many viable strategies for getting them into combat! And I've only had the book a couple days. I'm not even the smartest player! :D

I just don't understand the disappointment. Please explain.

No assault grenades. If your enemy is in Cover, you are striking simultaneously & your Banshees are almost certainly more fragile than the thing you are attacking.

[eldargal]

The Exarch is the only decent thing about the unit, but she is still useless. The old Banshee mask boosted them to I10, negated defensie terrain bonuses and didn't require a LD test. Banshees no longer have grenades so they will still most likely be striking at I1 simultaneously with their opponent. They are a glass cannon, they rely on killing things before they can strike back. They can now do so less reliably than before when they needed A Doomseer.

For them to be effective you have to rely completely on luck. The Banshees need to be in cover and in a position to charge an enemy out of cover. You need several warlocks with just the right powers in the vicinity. Said enemy needs to lack template weapons but even so against a unit of Marines you will still lose a few to Overwatch and then have to rely on at best S4 to take down the rest.

For the same money (near two hundred points) I could take a much more effective unit. They are terrible.

Edit: In other words, if you are very very lucky he Banshee might do something another unit can do more effectively and with fewer casualties no luck required. Believe me I would like nothing more than to have viable Banshees even if they weren't stellar. But the fact is there is no point taking them. Better off taking Scorpions or putting the points into any one of the numerous fantastic units we now have.

IF they were errata'd to have grenades then with their extra speed then they could be a viable unit for mopping up and tying up weakened units so the shooty parts of the army can move on to fresh targets. That probably won't happen.

[Deadlift]

Deadlift can you give us a run through of the autuarch there has been very little in the rumours about him?

70pts, impressive stat line which includes ws 6, bs 6 and I 6.
Can take lots of equipment including jetbike, hawk wings and warp jump generator all 15 pts each

Wargear is heavy aspect armour, shuriken pistol, haywire grenades, plasma grenades and force shield.

Special rules, ancient doom, battle focus, fleet, IC and the path of strategy.

[Teffe]

Autuarch with mandiblaster, power weapon in with banshees makes them a bit better on the charge but loose their speed boost.

Remember that Mandiblaster is Mandicrapper now tho. ;)

And as I stated earlier in this thread: Me and my local gaming community play "mostly" friendly and casual games for fun, unless a tournament is coming up. So I built an Autarch just for fun to use with my Banshee babe unit last night.
Equipped him with Banshee mask, Firesabre and Shard of Anaris. :D My thinking is: take my challenge and die, or let me hit the unit, soul blazing pretty much everything around me. :D

[lattd]

Shame autuarch's cannot get exarch powers, i thought autuarch's where meant to have walked multiple paths, so why can they not get powers when the avatar can?

[Aramel]

Not sure about your meta, but fear is next to useless. Units not immune are ld9-10 or so easy to kill in combat it really does not matter. -5I only in the first round of combat and only if you charge. Before it was I10 regardless of who assaulted AND operated like grenades. Sure you can buff them with warlocks. So you need at least 6-10 to mathematically ensure getting the power you want, actually cast it and have your council baby sit the Banshees all game.

A Phoenix lord in the unit could work to soak up wounds, but that is 200+ potentially wasted points. Without fortune he/she will probably die anyway. The point is that Banshees are a unit of power weapons. Everyone knows what that does and will make sure to murder them before they get the chance to do anything. The best you can hope for is a fast serpent with a Farseer that has conceal. Turbo foward turn 1, get them out turn 2, run someplace safe, get your 3+ cover or better from terrain/tank. By then you hopefully neutralized anything that can really hurt them and they can finally get into combat. The point being that you pretty much have to plan your entire army around them for Banshees for them to work, a decidedly un-Eldar state of affairs.

I have not seen the rules myself personally, but it sounds like they are actually worse now. Do they even still have counter-attack? While giving Banshees slannesh Abilities they could have at least picked the one that prevents overwatch... They are literally blowing your mind with sonic waves...

[eldargal]

No counter attack. So they lost a lot and gained +3" Run.

I defended Banshees all though 5th edition, said they were still an excellent unit if you used them properly even if they needed a Farseer to be really effective. They are indefensible now, they are just terrible.

[Teffe]

@eldargal :
I will still use my Banshees, with an Autarch this time around, as at least he has plasma grenades. And I can always use some DE BFFs for funsies. ;) Just too bad I can't use Raiders or Venoms to transport the girls into combat, heh. ;)