Eldar Rumour Titbits

[SeekingOne]

Just wait patiently... This is the internet. Someone is running the numbers right now to prove him right or wrong. Let the lazy flow through you :)
Amen to that :D


Dude - its about as good as we're ever going to get back to the days of "Fast Moving Skimmer Glances Only"
It's past midnight and I'm getting slow... Only just realized that this new shield means that WS won't crash'n'burn if immobilized after moving Flat Out. Because it won't be penned. Now that is cool indeed.

EDIT:
But I seriously don't think WS would be able to take holos.

[Eldar_Atog]

Ugh

You forced my hand.

1 meltagun shot to the face of the serpent at <6" range... Assuming WS can now take HF's.

Old Wave serpent:
Chance of penetrating hit with chance of explosion ~ 22% (1 * 0.66 for pen on 1d6 * 0.66 to jink * 0.5 for explosion)

New Wave serpent:
Chance of penetrating hit with chance of explosion ~ 2.5% (1 * .583333 for pen on 2D6 * 0.1666666 for energy field 2+ save * 0.5 for 4+ jink * 0.5 for explosion result)

Thank you, good sir :)

[Defenestratus]

Amen to that :D


It's past midnight and I'm getting slow... Only just realized that this new shield means that WS won't crash'n'burn if immobilized after moving Flat Out. Because it won't be penned. Now that is cool indeed.

EDIT:
But I seriously don't think WS would be able to take holos.

Fine.

That ups the chances to more than 3%

OH NOES.

[Gwyidion]

According to a guy who has seen codex on Dakka,
Wraithcannons: S10 AP2 R12" (pretty sure on range, confident on else) --- Head-> DESK if same range
Wraithscythe : S4 AP2 Template, 6-to-wound=ID -- damn. That is quite good.

Also according to the guy - Eldar have BS4 across the board.


Speaking of the Avatar, he nowhas one W more, is WS/BS 10, I believe his Ini got up to 10 now(if it wasn't before) but only a Daemon now, so only 5++, but maybe he could get the Exarch skill that gives you a 4++. His CC attacks are AP 1 and they expanded his immunity to fire to Soul Blaze and Pyromancy Psychic powers.

LOLWUT. that makes him rumored to be WS/BS 10 S6 T6 W5 A4 I10 Ld10 3+/5++, with access to a bunch of exarch powers, ability to be buffed by friendly psykers...

[Power Klawz]

I'm pretty sure aspects are going to be good/great all around, but if we're looking at 7 or less point guardians with BS4 and rend-lite then I'm getting excited.

[Gwyidion]

Temper your excitement - they still have 12" range.

[AttemptedM]

Don't forget the Avatar is supposed to be fleet now. And he probably has battle trance too. The wailing doom might actually hit something.

[noahwood]

Well, Gwyidion, the real advantage here is that vehicles piloted by non-aspect crew are going to be BS4 as well. That makes a world of difference!

[Rouks]

Well, im kinda worried about one thing that we dint talk about. Did the Dire Avengers (my favorite eldar aspect) lost there freaking power of shooting of doom (dont remember the name right now)? I think not, cause games workshop should (and would) make them at least good (if not very) to package them like that and expect good sales imo, but im still worried. And god damn it, please give 6 more inch on the range of those wraithguards and guardians...

[SeekingOne]

On dakka they're saying Guardians 9 pt apiece and DAs 13 pt apiece.

[Defenestratus]

On dakka they're saying Guardians 9 pt apiece and DAs 13 pt apiece.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA


AAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHhHAHHAHAHhhAHhahaah

*breathes*

OH GOD AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Seriously - I totally believe it.

As if I need MORE reasons to keep the idiot guardians on the shelf. What good is BS4 if you can't shoot before you get shot to ****?

[Gwyidion]

To be more precise on Guardian cost - a unit starts at 90 points.

No details on the composition of that unit.

Admittedly, this is being optimistic, as in order to get guardians below 8 points, the default weapon would have to cost 20 pts.

[HERO]

What I find in utter hilarity is that no one looks at the new giant 9" model's rules, stats and point costs.

[colinsherlow]

What are the point values for the vehicle upgrades? I can't find the page. Thanks

[HERO]

From Dakka:


Disclaimer: Please note my time with the book was limited and my knowledge of the old Eldar Codex is spotty at best, so please excuse any vagaries and misnamed rules
Also, mods, if any of this gets too specific for Dakka, please tell me/edit my post accordingly.

Can't say about the Guardians, haven't looked at them really, sorry

I can tell you their Shuriken catapults are still 12", although with the new Bladestorm rule(rolls of 6 to wound always wound at AP 2, no effect on vehicles)

No squadrons in Heavy support(of course for Support batteries and War Walkers )

Wraithlord and Wraithknight are both HS.

Monofilament rule is as follows:

All units shot with I of 3 or less(or no I value) are shot with S+1 , base strength is still 6. All to wound rolls of 6 are treated with AP 1.

Wraithguard:

Old gun is S10 AP2 now, pretty sure still 12", D-Scythes are S4 AP 2 Flamer, 6 to wound causes ID as before

Heavy D-Scythe of the Flyer is 18" small blast template

Guardians:

90 pts for 10, storm guardians the same

DA:

5 for 65 pts.

FOC:

As I saw beyond Spirit Seer making Wraith Guard troops nothing, no Phoenix Kings making some Aspect units scoring

On the matter of Phoenix kings, I believe someone said they lost EW, this is not true, they stil have it, and they all look pretty cool(for example Asurmen gets to pick D3 Warlord traits)

HQ:

Farseers start at ML 3 fo 100 pts with included Ghost helm(changed so that you can ignore Perils for expanding a Warp charge), ROW are gone, give a once per game 2+ DtW, another set of runes lets you reroll a Psychic test once per game

Warlocks are ML 1 psykers and can still go on jetbikes.

Absolutionis wrote:
From the rule snippets, it looks like Warp Spiders are Jet Pack Infantry and not Jump Jet Infantry as before. I guess this makes them slower...


I believe they are able to jump farther with their Jetpack now at least, it's 6"+2D6" now, I believe with the old rule was only 2D6?

Autarchs can take different aspect Wargear, yes.

Banshees:

Still only AP 3, Banshee masks have changed, they reduce I by 5 now, to a minimum of 1(not sure if this was permanent or only first turn of charging)

Psychic powers:

The Warlock powers are very good, if you take a lot of them and you roll well you will make everyone cry:

- give/take Shrouding
- improve armor save of a friendly unit by 1, decrease the save of an enemy unit by 1
- give +/- 1 to WS/I
- give +/- 1 to S
- primaris is Doom
- run extra distance/enemy unit can't run

the other one I can't think of right now

Spirit seer:

If I remember correctly they had basically the same gear as Farseers

Miscalleaneous:

Scatter lasers have a rule that lets you shoot them first, if you hit all other weapons on the model are treated as twin-linked

Warwalkers now have a 5+ invul, but are treated as open vehicles

Fire prism has a (at least I believe so) new shot profile, a 60" S9 lance, Heavy 1

Eldar BS is now 4 across the board

Disarm Exarch power:

You roll against your opponent and get +1 if your WS is higher. If you roll higher than your opponent you get to chose a CC weapon he has and he cannot use it this turn and is treated as attacking with a normal CCW. This does not work against opponents with no weapons like a Trygon for example. This Exarch ability is for a Banshee exarch(Jain Zar has it too of course), autarch, and maybe the Avatar too, as he can get some Exarch skills.

Speaking of the Avatar, he nowhas one W more, is WS/BS 10, I believe his Ini got up to 10 now(if it wasn't before) but only a Daemon now, so only 5++, but maybe he could get the Exarch skill that gives you a 4++. His CC attacks are AP 1 and they expanded his immunity to fire to Soul Blaze and Pyromancy Psychic powers.

Illic Nightspears rules lets you infiltrate without range restrictions, no matter which unit he's with, so you could join him to a unit of Flamer Wraiths and have a nice little barbeque

Warlocks have restrictions which unit they can join, but I believe it was only Wraith units.

Wraithlord is still T8, S has gone down to 8 though, his sword is now S+1, Master crafted

Dark Reapers are SnP, can get Krak and Flakk missiles(i believe 10 or 15 pts for Krak and 10 for Flakk per model), the Exarch either has or can buy a Range finder which let's you ignore Jink saves.

The Swooping hawks grenade attack changes according to the unit size, at 5 it's a 3" S4 AP 4 blast, 6+ a Large blast, both ignore cover.

[Eldar_Atog]

To be more precise on Guardian cost - a unit starts at 90 points.

No details on the composition of that unit.

Admittedly, this is being optimistic, as in order to get guardians below 8 points, the default weapon would have to cost 20 pts.

Or it could be a smaller unit with a warlock already added in. We can't really scream useless until we see all the details.

[Rouks]

On dakka they're saying Guardians 9 pt apiece and DAs 13 pt apiece.

Well, chaos marines are 11 pts (if I remember right) and Dark Angels marines are 14, so DA better have something REALLY good for 13 points more while being t3.

[Gwyidion]

Or it could be a smaller unit with a warlock already added in. We can't really scream useless until we see all the details.

This makes more sense than a platform-default weapon.

30pt warlock + 10 guardians = 6 pt guardians.

[Caldera02]

Well, chaos marines are 11 pts (if I remember right) and Dark Angels marines are 14, so DA better have something REALLY good for 13 points more while being t3.

CSM are 13 pts.

[Mkvenner]

They probably do not come with a Warlock. If anything the Weapon Platform might cost 20 to get as a Shuriken Cannon and then spend about 5pts, 10pts, or 15pts on better guns. 7pts a model would not be horrible.

[Kyban]

Wow, these rumors are kind of worrying, it sounds like it will be too similar to the old codex rather than fixing it. If the aspect warriors are ld 9 then why are warlocks ld 8?!?

[Gwyidion]

I think a warlock is more likely than a 20 pt S.cannon.

[Mkvenner]

They are not Imperials who have mandatory sergeants. Warlocks are distributed as needed to aid their war effort.

[Koremu]

They are not Imperials who have mandatory sergeants. Warlocks are distributed as needed to aid their war effort.

But this is DuelistHammer 6th edition, when every army has to have a sergeant in every unit to go mano a mano with the enemy sergeant...


Slightly more seriously: in the old fluff, Guardian unit leaders were former, no longer active, Aspect Warriors.

[Saunders]

The guardian defender squad in the new battleforce is just 10 guardians with a platform. Warlocks aren't a squad requirement.

[Mkvenner]

But this is DuelistHammer 6th edition, when every army has to have a sergeant in every unit to go mano a mano with the enemy sergeant...


Slightly more seriously: in the old fluff, Guardian unit leaders were former, no longer active, Aspect Warriors.

Agreed on all accounts haha. Glad to finally get some closure on some units. Banshees are still on the fence for me... However, Dark Reapers are now on deck.

[Souba]

so i am back, everyone feel free to head to 4chan and look for that eldar thread. i will post many things under a different name and dont want this board to get into legal stuff should GW decide to play a...hole again... as with faeit.

[D6Damager]

so i am back, everyone feel free to head to 4chan and look for that eldar thread. i will post many things under a different name and dont want this board to get into legal stuff should GW decide to play a...hole again... as with faeit.

So can we assault from wave serpents or falcons?

[IronZOGZ]

Is it possible that the platform is part of the 90 pts? You get 10 guys and the S. cannon platform base, and then you upgrade/add from there?

[Koremu]

What's the status of Heavy Weapon platforms in Guardian squads for the purposes of Relentless on "Heavy"? Bit sucky if you have to pay (as part of the squad) for a Weapon platform that can't be used with the move-fire-run routine.

[Gwyidion]

so i am back, everyone feel free to head to 4chan and look for that eldar thread. i will post many things under a different name and dont want this board to get into legal stuff should GW decide to play a...hole again... as with faeit.


what thread is that??

[Hal]

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/res/25092168

Edit: just ctrl+f his username raziel and follow his posts..

[Power Klawz]

Man I was all ready to get on board with guardians even with their 12 inch range, but if they are 9 points a pop my bubble has just burst. 7 points each with a mandatory relentless 20 point weapon platform I like, anything less than that and we're back to the bad old days.

[Seph V.]

I wont get doom and gloom just yet, but some of the things Im hearing here/seeing are making me worry...

To the point it's almost like aside from a few things tweeked, it seems like a copy/pasta of the 4th codex, and dumbed down abit.

[Defenestratus]

I'll condense the armpit of the internet forum's posts for BoLS:

Avatar = awesome for just under 200pts.
Farseers == BLOW CHUNKS. nuff said.

Warlocks can still form a seer council and can attach to guardians, jetbike guardians and support weapons like Wolf Guard. Thats it (apparently cannot attach to WG Squad *gulp*)

[HERO]

Why does the Farseer blow chunks?

[Hal]

...it seems like a copy/pasta of the 4th codex, and dumbed down abit.

Nah I don't think so, there is a lot of new special rules.. Battletrance for example is pretty unique and useful.. the wraithweapons are brutal and we didn't even cover all the aspect warriors yet. :)
So far I'm a bit disappointed with the autarch, but we'll see..

edit: oh and the ability to twin link weapons for a BS5 Exarch just blows.. I kinda always loved the double shots on warp spider and dire avengers exarchs.. :(

[Chair126]

guy in 3++ chatbawks has codex and is reading out rules and answering questions

kirby putting summary from 4chan in forms - http://www.3plusplus.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2430&p=2956#p2956

[Power Klawz]

According to the rumors just posted farseers are 100pts for ML 3 that is basically immune to perils, they just cost him a warp charge. I'm not really seeing the blows chunks aspect of that.

[Defenestratus]

According to the rumors just posted farseers are 100pts for ML 3 that is basically immune to perils, they just cost him a warp charge. I'm not really seeing the blows chunks aspect of that.

Runes of Warding are one use only (wtf is up with all the "one use only" crap in this book we're hearing?) for a +2 on your DtW save ...
Runes of Witnessing are one use only and just grant a re-roll for psychic test.... again... one use only crap.

Although his wounds are 3 apparently - which is nice as we were being told to expect 2W farseers.

To be immune to perils, you need a warp charge to spend. If you're on your third power and you get perils - you're screwed.

[Koremu]

I've noted the mention in the /tg/ thread of a "Haywire Lance".

Would very much like to know if that's a translation error from a Laser Lance, or something else.

[Seph V.]

Nah I don't think so, there is a lot of new special rules.. Battletrance for example is pretty unique and useful.. the wraithweapons are brutal and we didn't even cover all the aspect warriors yet. :)
So far I'm a bit disappointed with the autarch, but we'll see..

Im more saddened atm with Autarchs not unlocking an aspect you choose as troops. That is something I was REAAAALLY hoping for, and would make them alot more fun to bring to the table/fun conversions depending on your fav aspects.

[HERO]

More info from Dakka:


Hi all,

I had a sneak preview at the codex and thought I'd drop some choice things in:

Distort weapons: instant death on 6's to wound and auto pen on 6's.
Wraithcannon: 12" S10, AP1
D-cannon: 24" S10, AP1, blase, barrage
Wraithknight Cannon: 36" S10 AP1
D-Scythe: Flamer, S4 AP5
Heavy D-Scythe: 18" S4, AP5, blast

Shuriken weapons: Bladestorm; wounds of 6's count as AP2. All other things stay same (strength, AP and sadly the range).

Fire Prism:
Has a new fire mode - lance: 60" S9 AP1 Lance, Heavy 1

Illic Nightspear (the ranger dude)
BS9 - all shots that hit are precision shots. Allows rangers to go from 12 points each to pathfinders for 25 points each. Pathfinders gain the all shots are precision shots rule.
Illic's sniper rifle is also AP2 with the Distort rule (pens on 6's, ID's on 6's).

Warlocks:
Warlocks are now psyker Mastery 1 and role on the psyker table. They are taken like a necron royal court and dished out to guardian/wraith units.

Wraithlord:
Is now S8, but stayed T8. The wraithsword (now Ghostglaive) gives +1 Strength and rerolls to hit.

Wraithknight:
240 points base. Can take dual wraithlances, a suncannon/shield or sword/shield. Comes with the lances as standard. S10, T8 with a 3+ save. Requires the shield to get an invuln.

Guardians are now WS/BS 4

Psychic powers:
Fortune is now 2 warp charges but allows rerolls to deny the witch
Doom now allows rerolls to armour pen as well.
One of the new dual powers is +1 to your armour save or -1 to your enemy (up to 2+ for your own units).
Enhance is now +1 WS AND Initiative, the debuff is -1 to both.
Mindwar is now 2 warp charges and drastically changed. Didnt get the full details.
Eldritch Storm is the same BUT is now haywire and fleshbane.

BIG new power - it's a little complicated and I didn't get the best read of it. Gives the caster +5WS +5BS +5 initiative and +2 attacks. Roll at the start of every subsequent turn. On a 4+ it stays in play. If the model dies or the power fades you cede a victory point.

Exarch powers:
There is now a pool of 6-8 exarch powers. The different aspects have access to 3 of the powers.
Powers include:
4+ invuln
3+ invuln in challenge
In a challenge both people roll a dice and add to their leadership; if the eldar player wins they can remove one of the opponents weapons from the fight. This means no AP or S bonus or additional attacks bonus!!!
Monster Hunter
Fast Shot remains
and a few more...

Dark Reapers can take flak missiles to be our AA...

Wraithfighter is a psyker mastery 1 and comes with the telepathy Terrify power.

Farseers are 3 wounds still and come standard as Mastery 3!!! Ghosthelms do what they did before; but if you fail your ghosthelm save you can spend 1 warp charge to ignore the wound (if you have charges left).

Aspect warriors are Ld9 base.

[Defenestratus]

Swooping Hawks don't scatter apparently. But otherwise remain completely and utterly worthless.

[Defenestratus]

Im more saddened atm with Autarchs not unlocking an aspect you choose as troops. That is something I was REAAAALLY hoping for, and would make them alot more fun to bring to the table/fun conversions depending on your fav aspects.

Yes because we all know how fun it was for your opponents in third edition who played against biel-tan armies that were able to do that.

[Power Klawz]

Which effectively makes him mastery 1-2 depending on how poorly you roll, and only mastery 3 if you're willing to risk it, which seems quite in keeping with how I'd envision a farseer. Combined with runes of witnessing you can basically push your luck until you use those up, then play more conservatively or burn through your wounds as you'd like, either way farseers basically become the most consistent psykers in the game now. I don't think that's anything to sneeze at, most consistent with access to arguably the most powerful lore (divination) kind of makes them the most powerful psykers in the game now outside of special characters...

[Defenestratus]

Shining Spears can be taken in squads of 9 now (Thank god!) for the same price per model as a quarter represents in cents.

They have something called Haywire lances.

[Defenestratus]

Don't get too excited over the crimson hunter. It looks like it will be in beast mode - until a quad gun even looks in its general direction - then it will explode in a glorious poof of smoke.

Av10 all around with 3HP. Thats it. No defensive upgrades whatsoever. My 145pt nightwings look like a deal right now :)

[Power Klawz]

Can't you plop one of those whatever fields on it that basically makes it immune to penetration?

[Hal]

nah thats just for serpents only..

[deinol]

Can't you plop one of those whatever fields on it that basically makes it immune to penetration?

I believe that's the Wave Serpent only. You can probably give a Holo-Field for +1 to cover/jink saves.

[Power Klawz]

Anyone got stats on hawks lasblasters? Still underwhelming as ever I assume? Although seems like the exarch will make a great warlord killer if he can snipe people with powerful weaponry after a perfect deep strike.

[DarkLink]

PM3 Psykers for 100pts is still really good, especially if you still get access to Divination and Telepathy.

[Rouks]

Wow, im really starting to have fears on that new dex now. Its really lame if its just another derpa herpa remix of codex who's just like the same old one with ''shinny new stufz'' that are totally overpriced for what they do with the lack of the old gamicks. Sure, its cool that we can now run and shoot or shoot and run, but hell, Space marine have a treath range of 30 inch just with there bolters just with 6th edition. I really hope theres the old power for the avengers (yeah they got rending and shooting, but more expensive with the loss of massive shooting). We will have to wait til saturday to judge I guess.

[Seph V.]

Wow, im really starting to have fears on that new dex now. Its really lame if its just another derpa herpa remix of codex who's just like the same old one with ''shinny new stufz'' that are totally overpriced for what they do with the lack of the old gamicks. Sure, its cool that we can now run and shoot or shoot and run, but hell, Space marine have a treath range of 30 inch just with there bolters just with 6th edition. I really hope theres the old power for the avengers (yeah they got rending and shooting, but more expensive with the loss of massive shooting). We will have to wait til saturday to judge I guess.

I feel the same, but I think that mainly what we need is to sit down with it for a few days to figure out the sick combos that are in the book that we cannot see yet. Not to mention, not all the point costs are out yet.

[Koremu]

Shining Spears can be taken in squads of 9 now (Thank god!) for the same price per model as a quarter represents in cents.

They have something called Haywire lances.

And Haywire Lances do...?

[HERO]

With the Wraithknight's Wraithcannon being 36" S10 AP1 with the Wraithcannon stuff (auto pens/ID on 6s), I'm not so sure how powerful these guys will be.

I was really hoping for two D-cannons (from the Warp Hunter).

[Eldar_Atog]

Yeah, sounds like several good rumors and some bad. Not going to really study it though. It's best to wait just a couple more days and sit down with the codex on Friday night/Saturday morning.

[DarkLink]

Which effectively makes him mastery 1-2 depending on how poorly you roll, and only mastery 3 if you're willing to risk it, which seems quite in keeping with how I'd envision a farseer. Combined with runes of witnessing you can basically push your luck until you use those up, then play more conservatively or burn through your wounds as you'd like, either way farseers basically become the most consistent psykers in the game now. I don't think that's anything to sneeze at, most consistent with access to arguably the most powerful lore (divination) kind of makes them the most powerful psykers in the game now outside of special characters...

Perils isn't that much of a risk. It's only a 1 in 18 chance of suffering it in the first place, and it sounds like not only do you still get your 3+ Ghosthelm, but 2/3 of the time you can choose to use a remaining warp charge to ignore it. A 1/162 chance of suffering a wound is not something to get too worked up over.

And it sounds like the Eldar powers will be plenty decent and flexible, including their Primaris powers, and if they've still got Divination then pretty much all of those are awesome, so I wouldn't worry too much about getting stuck with crappy powers.

Meanwhile the Autarch gets, what, exarch powers, most of which are just challenge buffs? Kinda sad. Doesn't look like many people will take Autarchs.

[Seph V.]

My reaction to the Harlequins stats, aka fav 40k unit and what made me go Eldar:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/56446841/Lol/YES_WOO.gif

That being said, I hope they keep their rending kisses of some sort. Cant say for sure yet.

[deinol]

My reaction to the Harlequins stats, aka fav 40k unit and what made me go Eldar:

That being said, I hope they keep their rending kisses of some sort. Cant say for sure yet.

You have Harlie stats and didn't share? What are they? Points +/-?

[Rouks]

My reaction to the Harlequins stats, aka fav 40k unit and what made me go Eldar:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/56446841/Lol/YES_WOO.gif

That being said, I hope they keep their rending kisses of some sort. Cant say for sure yet.

And what are they?

To the others people, I agree that we will need to wait till we have that cutie codex in our palms. Phil Kely, in you I trust.

[Seph V.]

You have Harlie stats and didn't share? What are they? Points +/-?

I'll respect person's wishes on costs in fear of this thread being taken down, what I WILL post though is:

Neither +/-

the fateseer is psyker level 1 and got only 1 power:
veil of teirs: blessing.
every enemy shooting on the fateseer and his unit has to roll 2d6 x 2 to see if they are within range. if they are not they cannot decide to shoot on a different target

[Gwyidion]

Pretty pumped about new warlocks. Like that you can (obv) choose which one goes with which unit.


But, there's plenty of changes i don't think are good. INCREASED price of guardians? really?

[Seph V.]

Pretty pumped about new warlocks. Like that you can (obv) choose which one goes with which unit.


But, there's plenty of changes i don't think are good. INCREASED price of guardians? really?

Unless their gun range changed to 18in, yeah....

Cause you know, the bladestorm+BS/WS 4 meant we needed to up them, right?

[HERO]

***The internet is full of data. Nuff said...***

[Bitrider]

https://boards.4chan.org/tg/res/25098359#p25098359


Soooo...getting the flyers... will have to really think about the Knight.

[Defenestratus]

Guess what guys - Phoenix lords are pretty much the exact same* - meaning no invulnerable saves for those who didn't have them already except Baharroth.

I don't know how someone could honestly take a look at the Eldar codex and say "you know these uber expensive units without invulnerable saves? They're just fine."

*Asurmen does get D3 rolls on the warlord chart.. There is that.

[Bitrider]

Guess what guys - Phoenix lords are pretty much the exact same* - meaning no invulnerable saves for those who didn't have them already except Baharroth.

I don't know how someone could honestly take a look at the Eldar codex and say "you know these uber expensive units without invulnerable saves? They're just fine."

*Asurmen does get D3 rolls on the warlord chart.. There is that.

Def, Assuming the 'shaker of salt'... what are your thoughts on the Knight?


4chan Anonymous

I'd kill for a psychic power which just says
>Blessing: Howling Banshees actually do their job

There is truth in advertising...

[Souba]

dear god, my hands hurt

[calamitycal]

Guess what guys - Phoenix lords are pretty much the exact same* - meaning no invulnerable saves for those who didn't have them already except Baharroth.

I don't know how someone could honestly take a look at the Eldar codex and say "you know these uber expensive units without invulnerable saves? They're just fine."

*Asurmen does get D3 rolls on the warlord chart.. There is that.
That's disappointing. The problem with Phoenix Lords is they are just too specialized. It makes sense fictionally, but in gameplay it hinders them. It's almost inconceivable to field a PL over a Farseer. I was hoping they'd actually get a points reduction and a power reduction and be more like Exarch upgrades rather than HQ choices. As HQ choices they just aren't viable, even if they had invuln saves.

[Bitrider]

dear god, my hands hurt

You have our thanks none the less.

Danke!!!!

[Souba]

you all are more than welcome

[scadugenga]

Hero's Information

Since some of this information is already not what is in the codex download sample...not sure I find it very credible.

[JMichael]

dear god, my hands hurt

Worth it for me! :D

Thanks a ton!!!!

[Souba]

be careful with this information guys, especially at these times (given the faet accident etc) i cant stress this enough. keep calm get happy and smile with the info given and grab the book when it comes out

[Bitrider]

you all are more than welcome

bhahaha... yriel...nice one Souba.

[Gir]

AP2 warprift flamers? Yes please.

[Defenestratus]

Def, Assuming the 'shaker of salt'... what are your thoughts on the Knight?

I dig it actually. I know people poo poo the lack of inv save but we have so many buffing powers now that we can probably guarantee to get either a 4++ save on him or an improved cover save.

The loadout? I'd love it if we could take two suncannons but alas, only Grey Knights get the broken stuff for a good deal. Two of the lances seems ok but quite limited in its application. I'm actually thinking about putting a sword and shield on mine, babysitting it with a jetbike seer council that's buffed their save to 2+ and given a 4++ save to the WK.... its the beatstick in combat that the seer council just doesn't have.

[Souba]

the shrouding power only works on the psyker and his unit, so not on the wraithknight.
however he can get the 4+ invul from divinatioin

[noahwood]

He was saying that he'd give his jetbike council a 2+ save with the warlock power.

Here's a copy of everything that Raziel posted on 4chan for anyone that's interested.

***tsk, tsk***

[Zphindar]

Is it just me or is there pts increase accross the board. I thought 40k was moving to cheaper units. Is the BS4 and Battle Trance worth the extra pts. I'm especially curious about the Serpent going up 15 pts minimum (Listed by Raziel as 115pts, a base one with TL Shurikannon is 100pts)

[DarkLink]

*Asurmen does get D3 rolls on the warlord chart.. There is that.

So you roll to see how many times you roll. Awesome.

[daboarder]

DA's are apparently 16 a pop with only a 4+.......WOW!!

and yriel's not in the book...


KKKKEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLYYYY!!!

[Souba]

yriel is in the book :) i was just joking.

however i didnt post much about him.

i thought after 3 hours of typing crap out of this dex i gotta have some fun aswell :P

[daboarder]

yriel is in the book :) i was just joking.

however i didnt post much about him.

i thought after 3 hours of typing crap out of this dex i gotta have some fun aswell :P

righto...but DA's are still more than marines right?

[Souba]

righto...but DA's are still more than marines right?

you got the basecost... divide by 5 (the starting size) and you got the price per DA.

[Learn2Eel]

righto...but DA's are still more than marines right?

It is 65 for five guys, so 13 per model.

[goobi2]

Did I miss the Invul Save for the Wraithknight's Scatterfield?

I'm fine with most of the cost increases since most units got buffed up quite a bit. Even Wave Serpents don't really have to worry about blowing up much any more which is great for the fragile men inside.

[daboarder]

It is 65 for five guys, so 13 per model.

sweet, wasn't sure if they we're just giving out a discount or not on the original 5

I like the new tiering of aspect armour.

4+/3+/2+

so much better than it was.

mate of mine is goin g to love being able to actually do a wraith list, that will look frakking awesome, can't wait to take it to bits with my nurgle Termie list

[Zphindar]

Did I miss the Invul Save for the Wraithknight's Scatterfield?

I'm fine with most of the cost increases since most units got buffed up quite a bit. Even Wave Serpents don't really have to worry about blowing up much any more which is great for the fragile men inside.

What makes them more viable? I hope I missed something :)

[deaddice]

Sigh looks like no new phoenix lords... why leave warp spiders and shinning spears out ???

[Defenestratus]

What makes them more viable? I hope I missed something :)

Their shield downgrades pens to glances on a 2+

[Zphindar]

Their shield downgrades pens to glances on a 2+

Thats what I thought, however might just be because I played too much against Tau, but 3 glances isn't that hard to get from shooty armies, especially Tau who can take away your jink save from moving fast. In a few games I was actually hoping he'd pen that way I'd have a chance to only be stunned. lol

[Kyban]

Thats what I thought, however might just be because I played too much against Tau, but 3 glances isn't that hard to get from shooty armies, especially Tau who can take away your jink save from moving fast. In a few games I was actually hoping he'd pen that way I'd have a chance to only be stunned. lol

Huh? A pen takes a hull point too...

[daboarder]

Holy crap Wraithblades are choppy.

S7 Ap2 T6 3+/5++.....all for about the price of a CSM terminator....

wraithlord took a S hit didn't it?

S8?

[Archon Charybdis]

wraithlord took a S hit didn't it?

S8?

Yep, and a 30pt/33% cost increase. Admittedly they picked up a single attack, but somehow I'm finding that not terribly impressive given the context.

[daboarder]

Yep, and a 30pt/33% cost increase. Admittedly they picked up a single attack, but somehow I'm finding that not terribly impressive given the context.

To be fair they we're always getting an increase given the MC trends, and they still look like a good deal. not to mention looks like they buy a pair of weapons these days.

I don't think they got fexed.


think dual starcannon or shuriken cannon. Nice heavy firepower for those wraith armies, throw in a Wraithknight and whose really going to be shooting at the lords?

If you do FW a Wraithseer will be awesome in a wraith army too.

[Archon Charybdis]

I suppose two actual weapons adds some utility I hadn't considered (though probably not 30pts worth).

Wraithlord aside, anyone else notice a distinct lack of anything to fix Banshees? Especially if it's true that Banshee Mask now works like Soporific Musk. They still don't have grenades so if charging into cover at best they can hope to simultaneously strike at I1. The only way I could possibly see them being viable again is if you just happen to field an all-infantry army thanks to Battle Focus, so they're not as obvious of a target.

[daboarder]

I suppose two actual weapons adds some utility I hadn't considered (though probably not 30pts worth).

Wraithlord aside, anyone else notice a distinct lack of anything to fix Banshees? Especially if it's true that Banshee Mask now works like Soporific Musk. They still don't have grenades so if charging into cover at best they can hope to simultaneously strike at I1. The only way I could possibly see them being viable again is if you just happen to field an all-infantry army thanks to Battle Focus, so they're not as obvious of a target.

DUDE! they are a whole 1pt cheaper, its nuts, almost broken for how good they are now



/sarcasm.

Nope not seeing anything.....pretty much a copy paste from the old book with chaos thrown in...oh and still only AP3

[HERO]

DUDE! they are a whole 1pt cheaper, its nuts, almost broken for how good they are now



/sarcasm.

Nope not seeing anything.....pretty much a copy paste from the old book with chaos thrown in...oh and still only AP3

With a worst scream, +no grenades.

sick

[Loken]

http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/2013/05/eldar-wargear.html

Eldar Wargear.

[daboarder]

anyone else find it odd that they replace Laser with haywire in other languages.

I mean Laser is a scientific name, its a laser regardless of the language.....

[eldargal]

Personally I'm assuming these are fake, but if not Banshees are a complete ***** up. No grenades, worse mask, rubbish exarch abilities. Swooping Hawks are rubbish, warlord chart is meh and a bunch of other stuff ranges from mediocre to OP. So it's either fake or a complete **** up.

[Kyban]

Personally I'm assuming these are fake, but if not Banshees are a complete ***** up. No grenades, worse mask, rubbish exarch abilities. Swooping Hawks are rubbish, warlord chart is meh and a bunch of other stuff ranges from mediocre to OP. So it's either fake or a complete **** up.

Agreed.

[calamitycal]

Personally I'm assuming these are fake, but if not Banshees are a complete ***** up. No grenades, worse mask, rubbish exarch abilities. Swooping Hawks are rubbish, warlord chart is meh and a bunch of other stuff ranges from mediocre to OP. So it's either fake or a complete **** up.

Agreed. If even half of this is true its a complete fail. Makes me glad I didn't pre-order too many things and even more glad that I bought them at a big discount.

[eldargal]

The one saving grace could be if they get assault vehicles and Acrobatic is like the Wych Dodge skill rather than counter attack. It's possible as Dire Avengers have counter attack listed not acrobatic. Shield of Grace for the exarch wouldn't be bad (3++) if she can still get Ap2 +1S.


Agreed. If even half of this is true its a complete fail. Makes me glad I didn't pre-order too many things and even more glad that I bought them at a big discount.
Not half, there are a lot of good things there are just a few terrible things letting it down if true. Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Guardians to some extent possibly, the warlord chart (one use abilities? WTF) it's more like 66/33 but the disappointing 33% is really, really disappointing.

[Kamin_Majere]

It's because you are supposed to buy the shiny new wraith blades, because eldar are supposed to be an army of undead robots now... howling banshees were so 3rd edition.

:(

[eldargal]

It's because you are supposed to buy the shiny new wraith blades, because eldar are supposed to be an army of undead robots now... howling banshees were so 3rd edition.

:(
I doubt it, the whole 'GW make new kits OP' thing really isn't true, they are balanced or underwhelming as often as they are OP.

Inconsistency: Acrobatic is listed under Jain Zar as giving the unit counter attack, but Dire Avengers have counter attack listed and not Acrobatic. If Acrobatic is just counter attack as it is now why don't they just have it listed as counter attack as with DA?

[daboarder]

To be honest these rumours are about what I would expect given the other 6th ed codeci, less a revision and more a tweak.

take CSM for example, its basically the 4th ed codex with some new units tacked on, I wil admit though that they did fix some of the more critical problems with the book such as icon's.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I'm pretty glad I've not bought anything other than what I've already got, because if this stuff is true I would have wasted my money. The only stuff that sounds good is pretty much stuff I've already got.

[calamitycal]

I doubt it, the whole 'GW make new kits OP' thing really isn't true, they are balanced or underwhelming as often as they are OP.
That's very true in a lot of cases, but you have to admit in this case it definitely appears that we're being pushed to play undead robot Eldar.

I think the thing that bothers me about what we're reading here so far is that too much of the codex is going to be simply worthless. Not slightly under-powered or ok to take in certain situations, but just downright worthless.

The models are why I got into Eldar back in 1993. And it was the Banshees and the Swooping Hawks specifically that caught my eye. They've been collecting dust for years and sadly it looks like they'll remain on the shelf.

Sure there are good things in the codex. But the fact that known problems weren't addressed, and in fact were potentially made *worse* is inexcusable.

[eldargal]

God, no mention of Serpents having assault vehicle, these rumours had bloody well better be fake because that is nothing short of a travesty. Most******* advanced race in the galaxy and they can't figure out how to charge out of their ******* vehicles.

Still, I wouldn't believe anyone on 4chan if they said the sky was blue so I'm not worrying yet.

[Lexington]

Man, I don't see all the fuss about Swooping Hawks here. They're situational (hello, Eldar!), but man, they'll do a number on squishy backfield units like IG Heavy Weapon Platoons, or simple objective campers like Cultists, Gretchin and even other elf-shaped things. Speaking of objectives, how irritating will it be when they use that pinpoint Deep Strike ability to leap in and contest that objective in your deployment zone on the last turn?

[navywolf]

with the way 6th has gone with other codex's i can not beleave most of this. it sounds like trolling but that is my thoughts.

[calamitycal]

To be honest these rumours are about what I would expect given the other 6th ed codeci, less a revision and more a tweak.

take CSM for example, its basically the 4th ed codex with some new units tacked on, I wil admit though that they did fix some of the more critical problems with the book such as icon's.

I disagree with this. The CSM book is a massive improvement over the 4th ed. book. I played Chaos in 4th and got the latest ed codex. Night and day difference. The only reason I didn't play a lot of CSM (and actually sold most of my stuff) is because I wanted to focus on Eldar and I hated the look of the new Chaos stuff, especially the Helldrake. Couldn't bring myself to buy or field that thing.

This Eldar codex seems like a mishmash of ideas with no rhyme or rhythm to it. It's like a bunch of random ideas all thrown together with no real thought behind them.

[calamitycal]

God, no mention of Serpents having assault vehicle, these rumours had bloody well better be fake because that is nothing short of a travesty. Most******* advanced race in the galaxy and they can't figure out how to charge out of their ******* vehicles.

Still, I wouldn't believe anyone on 4chan if they said the sky was blue so I'm not worrying yet.

Right. Not panic time yet, but certainly worrying.

[daboarder]

God, no mention of Serpents having assault vehicle, these rumours had bloody well better be fake because that is nothing short of a travesty. Most******* advanced race in the galaxy and they can't figure out how to charge out of their ******* vehicles.

Still, I wouldn't believe anyone on 4chan if they said the sky was blue so I'm not worrying yet.

Ha Chaos even have said vehicles but for somereason can't figure out how to stick a different gun on them.

oh...and the sky isn't blue :p


I disagree with this. The CSM book is a massive improvement over the 4th ed. book. I played Chaos in 4th and got the 5th ed codex. Night and day difference. The only reason I didn't play a lot of CSM (and actually sold most of my stuff) is because I wanted to focus on Eldar and I hated the look of the new Chaos stuff, especially the Helldrake. Couldn't bring myself to buy or field that thing.

This Eldar codex seems like a mishmash of ideas with no rhyme or rhythm to it. It's like a bunch of random ideas all thrown together with no real thought behind them.

eh to each his own opinion. but I'll put it this way, just because eldar players wanted certain things to happen (suh as assualt transports) doesn't mean GW was going to listen, both chaos and nids have taughts us that GW will do what GW wants.

[eldargal]

Sorry but the 'GW doesn't give people what they want' argument only goes so far. It isn't just what people wanted, it was what was required to make certain units work. Now it could have been an exarch ability or it could have been optional equipment but for mechanised CC eldar to work in 6th they needed assault vehicles. Failure to provide that without something to ameliorate it is a **** up pure and simple.


Yeah, I'm pretty glad I've not bought anything other than what I've already got, because if this stuff is true I would have wasted my money. The only stuff that sounds good is pretty much stuff I've already got.
Pretty models are pretty. I don't regret buying any of the new things, besides they all seem quite worthwhile. Wraithknight is nice, warithguard are nice and the flyers seem nice too.

[daboarder]

Sorry but the 'GW doesn't give people what they want' argument only goes so far. It isn't just what people wanted, it was what was required to make certain units work. Now it could have been an exarch ability or it could have been optional equipment but for mechanised CC eldar to work in 6th they needed assault vehicles. Failure to provide that without something to ameliorate it is a **** up pure and simple.

bezerkers suffer close to the exact same problem, its par for the course for GW to either miss or ignore serious design flaws for numerous editions.

take lictors, they're still paying for being god aweful scary buggers in 2nd.

edit: oh I'm not saying its not a **** up, I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised

[calamitycal]

Sorry but the 'GW doesn't give people what they want' argument only goes so far. It isn't just what people wanted, it was what was required to make certain units work. Now it could have been an exarch ability or it could have been optional equipment but for mechanised CC eldar to work in 6th they needed assault vehicles. Failure to provide that without something to ameliorate it is a **** up pure and simple.

Exactly. It's not about "giving us what we want". There is no such thing anyway, since so many people want so many different things.

It doesn't matter whether its assault transports, or an exach power, or wargear, or a change in statline, or whatever - just take the time and spend the energy to figure out how to make something like for example, Banshees, useful. If those rumors are true, they didn't even try. And that's frustrating.

[navywolf]

from what i have read the far seer powers are cool. i can find a use for them in any situation regardless of what power i roll. the gigantic kiniget seams cool but he will need a baby sitter to keep him in the fight bast tern two. with a wave serpent i may only use two to move strike teams around were needed. the rest will be foot slogging it now. hawks will just do what they have always done for me get line barker and be a thorn in my aponets side. bet with a night in his face i don't see him shooting the hawks. lol big shiny distraction is all it is.

[daboarder]

Exactly. It's not about "giving us what we want". There is no such thing anyway, since so many people want so many different things.

It doesn't matter whether its assault transports, or an exach power, or wargear, or a change in statline, or whatever - just take the time and spend the energy to figure out how to make something like for example, Banshees, useful. If those rumors are true, they didn't even try. And that's frustrating.

all I'm saying is its par for the course and if banshees haven't been fixed your not being treated any worse than any other number of codex's.

[DarkLink]

Pretty models are pretty. I don't regret buying any of the new things, besides they all seem quite worthwhile. Wraithknight is nice, warithguard are nice and the flyers seem nice too.

I mostly like the look of Eldar vehicles, and the new Wraith stuff.

[daboarder]

I mostly like the look of Eldar vehicles, and the new Wraith stuff.

Here Here, loving the wraith infantry.

oh and I'll be buying a knight at some point, just for the hell of it.

[JMichael]

God, no mention of Serpents having assault vehicle, these rumours had bloody well better be fake because that is nothing short of a travesty. Most******* advanced race in the galaxy and they can't figure out how to charge out of their ******* vehicles.

Still, I wouldn't believe anyone on 4chan if they said the sky was blue so I'm not worrying yet.

I would be happy with a unit specific rule (like for the Banshees only) that would allow them to assault out of a transport.
And perhaps a rule for the Scorpions to assault out of reserves.

[calamitycal]

all I'm saying is its par for the course and if banshees haven't been fixed your not being treated any worse than any other number of codex's.
I don't see anyone claiming to be being treated worse than other codexes. We're not comparing ourselves to anyone. We're expressing frustration over what we're reading. Just as I am sure the fans of those other codexes did. Eldargal has it right, these are some pretty big warning signs. Par for the course is irrelevant.

[eldargal]

Yup, not saying other armies haven't had similar issues just pointing out it will be a huge blow (especially when Kelly said Banshees will be fearsome in WD*) if Banshees, our supposed anti-MEQ unit, aren't even worth taking. We certainly don't know for sure yet, even if these rumours are accurate I still don't think we can say we know what Acrobatic does.

*Say what you will, they don't tend to talk up old units thare are still **** in a new codex. They usually say nothing and talk up new units.

[Mkvenner]

I never really saw Banshees as a dedicated close combat unit since they can't take what they dish out. After reading the rules, nothing has been done to mitigate their glaring weaknesses.

-No reliable means of getting into assault.
-No way of really surviving an assault.

Had those been shored up they would be fine.

[eldargal]

When power weapons ignored armour completely they were very good at taking on tough units with psychic assistance. I used to throw them at tough units with Doom and Fortune and usually win. Between overwatch, AP3 and various other 6th ed issues that doesn't work anymore. As you say they needed revision to work as a CC unit and if these rumours are to be believed they didn't get it at all.

[Learn2Eel]

I can personally confirm Raziel's info.
I am still curious as to what invulnerable save the Wraithknight gets from its shield, did anyone see that?

[eldargal]

I can personally confirm Raziel's info.

Well ****.

[calamitycal]

When power weapons ignored armour completely they were very good at taking on tough units with psychic assistance. I used to throw them at tough units with Doom and Fortune and usually win. Between overwatch, AP3 and various other 6th ed issues that doesn't work anymore. As you say they needed revision to work as a CC unit and if these rumours are to be believed they didn't get it at all.

This is exactly what I was about to write. In previous editions they were tough to play, but if you were smart you could get them in combat against a high armor save unit and the Banshees would tear them apart. Banshees were about getting them in situations where they didn't get hit back, or at least only hit a few times. They're supposed to be squishy.

But now they have to survive at least one round of shooting, then a round of overwatch, before they even get stuck in. With their toughness and armor save you'll be lucky if any of them make it. So unless something was done to address that, they're useless.

I don't have a problem with Banshees being squishy. They should be. But without a way to get to a fight, anything worth charging will kill them before they even get to make a charge distance roll. If that issue wasn't addressed, then yea that's frustrating because it was a glaring and easy to see balance issue that any designer worth their salt would have looked at.

[Ebsolom Dhaark]

If any of the above rumours turn out to be true it's no wonder the Eldar are indeed a "dying race" : (
Too many issues seem to have been overlooked with all focus aimed at selling the new shiny stuff. I hope the new codex proves me wrong.

[eldargal]

But now they have to survive at least one round of shooting, then a round of overwatch, before they even get stuck in. With their toughness and armor save you'll be lucky if any of them make it. So unless something was done to address that, they're useless.

I don't have a problem with Banshees being squishy. They should be. But without a way to get to a fight, anything worth charging will kill them before they even get to make a charge distance roll. If that issue wasn't addressed, then yea that's frustrating because it was a glaring and easy to see balance issue that any designer worth their salt would have looked at.
Yep, if this is indeed the full & accurate picture of Banshees then unless Acrobatic is a 4++ against Overwatch and let's them assault out of a vehicle then they are rubbish. I could cope with them being a glass cannon and dying in combat if they had a shot at killing things but with S3 that won't happen either. I could see the exarch being quite good in a challenge but beyond that they are terrible.
-They can't assault out of a vehicle so will be shot at
-They will get shot up by Overwatch
-Without grenades they will be striking simultaneously if they charge into cover
-S3 means wounding on 5s and 6s against most of the things you want them to kill
-T3 means most of the things you throw them at will be wounding them on 3s and 4s

Oh and the Mask of Jain Zar drops WS by 5 and she can take Fear which drops WS to 1 if they fail a LD test, that;s not ******* redundant at all.

[Alqualonde]

So far I am finding this new codex really exciting. As a Saimhann player I like the nearly rend on shurikens. 12 bikes BS4 against marines, might even drop the cannons. 21 hits (that .3333 just doesn't do it for me). 3 dead and 7 wounds leading to 2 more dead. What Combat Squad was that? Vypers BS 4, might put them up, to excited to decide since Walkers it appears are BS4 as well. Crimson Hunter - exciting looking 'plane and could be fun arriving and vectoring into the rear of a Vendetta squadron. Odds exist of 3 explosions (okay that would be a quick game). Wraithknight - what an awesome fire magnet and it should last long enough to do damage.

My only complaint is there are too many exciting builds. I'll be playing with lists forever just for a variety of fun. (and leaving the defence line for my IG)

[Mkvenner]

When power weapons ignored armour completely they were very good at taking on tough units with psychic assistance. I used to throw them at tough units with Doom and Fortune and usually win. Between overwatch, AP3 and various other 6th ed issues that doesn't work anymore. As you say they needed revision to work as a CC unit and if these rumours are to be believed they didn't get it at all.

Had their weapons been AP2 and their masks ignore Overwatch, that would have been a nice first step. Acrobatic would be nice to have as a means of assault from a vehicle.

If those were done, there would be little issues with Banshees that could not be solved with a Doom/Guide combo.

[eldargal]

I see three options:
a) These are fake
b) They are so garbled in translation they might as well be fake
c) Kelly has completely ****** up.

Kelly has had a very good run. Space Wolves had some issues but was still a good book, Dark Eldar was superb, Vampire Counts was Superb, Daemons was good and very thematic but now we are supposed to believe he completely screwed up. there is no way he could have failed to realise there were significant issues with Swooping Hawks and Banshees I can't believe he basically just copy and pasted them into the new book without bothering to address them.

[Kamin_Majere]

On a different front from the rules... is it just me or does the Wraith Guard not have enough in the box to make 5 of any kind?

I can see 5 sets of swords, and 5 axes... but only 3 of each of the guns and only 3 shields.

So either there is a missing sprue or to run the Axe+shield, or any gun variant you will need like 2 boxes just to get 6


c) Kelly has completely ****** up.
When in doubt I always choose this option... but I've never really liked Kelly as a codex writer

[Mkvenner]

I don't think he screwed up, more that he screwed the pooch on a few units (Which he is prone to do in every codex). Mandrakes are still his calling card for wtf.

What he did to Dark Reapers, Striking Scorpions, Wraithguard, Guardians, and Rangers I REALLY like. Spiritseer might be my go to, if Illic is as good as he said, I would put a big 10 main Wraithguard unit with a Spiritseer and Illic right on my enemies doorstep with infiltrated Scorpions.

Dark Reapers and War Walkers provide cover fire and put the hurt on vehicles. Maybe a flyer, but most likely a squad of Vypers. Thinking of a Sniper Wraithlord with double Bright Lance depending on the price.

Troops are the Wraithguard, Rangers, and a big blob of Guardians. Should the Guardians not be up to snuff then I will grab more Wraithguard or Dire Avengers.

If Illic is not carrying his weight, I might pull over Karandras instead.

There is a lot of potential, but at the same time there are some very obvious pitfalls.

[navywolf]

glaring fails aside. dont tell me you arnt happy with the dex, if these are true.

[eldargal]

I don't think he screwed up, more that he screwed the pooch on a few units (Which he is prone to do in every codex). Mandrakes are still his calling card for wtf.

Mandrakes aren't as terrible as people make out, they just compete against superior Elite choices. Greatly superior. This is a case of pure incompetence. The really nasty thing for me is that he went on to talk about how they would be one of the more fearsome CC units in White Dwarf. I have a lot of respect for Kelly as a writer and I'm not going to believe he screwed up this monumentally until there is absolutely no doubt.

The really upsetting thing for me would be the fact that Banshees were one of the main reasons I fell in love with eldar in the first place. If I can't field my Banshees without them dying pointlessly then a lot of my enthusiasm for the army diminishes which is one reason why I stopped playing eldar shortly after 6th hit. This is not me spitting the dummy


glaring fails aside. dont tell me you arnt happy with the dex, if these are true.
It seems like it will be very nice, which makes the failure to revamp Banshees all the more galling for me personally (see above re: Banshee love). It would have taken little effort to make Banshees viable.

[Leon Davies]

I don't normally post on forums but i'm pretty angry.

The rumours read very true but i guess there is a chance they are wrong but if not then this codex is a pretty poor rehash of the existing one and is only there to sell wraith units.

I really liked the old book but like many have said the biggest problems were always that banshees just do not work and they are a classic image of the eldar army. The change to their masks dropping an enemies ini by 5 will at least help against lash whips but still exactly the same profile so 3 attacks on the charge at str 3 and AP2 and no reliable way to get them close to the enemy

The other one is guardians still being pretty much useless, i guess there cheaper so could sit on objectives but a 12" range on a unit like this makes them useless again and the rendlite rule doesn't really fix this.

Also it looks like they've removed bladestorm from Dire Avengers which sucks along with making two avenger catapults twin linked on an exarch

The last thing is the conflicting rumours on the wraithguard scythe weapon, it's been wrote as AP2 and AP5 which funnily enough is either way OP or way Under powered, if it's AP2 then this unit will take anything to town, especially if you can add the ranger HQ to them and infiltrate anywhere you like, you could have up to 10 flamer templates on any squad and wipe them out, same if they get charged by anyone, overwatching a minimum of 10 hits when their being charged means almost nothing will survive one the way into battle with them

If their AP5 then their just a squad of flamers which is pretty crap


I really hope these are made up but i don't think so, I just wonder now if i can cancel my big pre order i made last week as i really can't see me playing this codex as I don't just want to go Wraith heavy but that seems to be the only real way to play eldar now

Hope i'm wrong

[chicop76]

12" is still good. I am speaking as a 3rd/ 4th edition eldar player. The thing I noticed is that they now have the both black guardian upgrades. Before black with raised +1 ws or +1 bs. Now they just have it with rending too. It gives me options with the wave serpent since I can now shoot 20-40 rending shoots at some one. If doom and fortune still around it's like a really.

[Leon Davies]

I agree the upgrade in stats is nice, though i don't think this was really needed on guardians.

Doom and Guide are still around, i can't remember if they are a primeris power in the new schools, but you can always take prescience as a primaris power to replecate part of it

[ihockert]

Well if the targeting laser rule for Scatter Lasers applies to any unit with them, then you really don't need Guide for Guardians. The possibility of the guardian drive by from a wave serpent could be interesting to explore if those rules hash out. 10 or so twin-linked shuricats at BS 4 with pseudo-rending could put out some decent hurt, though at the wave serpents alleged higher price tag this might not be great. Of course depending on price and how the the targeting laser rule works, War Walker squadrons with 1 scatter laser and 5 starcannons could be effective: fire 4 BS 4 shots and if any of them hit follow up with 10 twin-linked str 6 ap 2 shots. That should wipe out most marine elements and do a number on most terminator elements in a single volley.

[Gir]

On a different front from the rules... is it just me or does the Wraith Guard not have enough in the box to make 5 of any kind?

I can see 5 sets of swords, and 5 axes... but only 3 of each of the guns and only 3 shields.

So either there is a missing sprue or to run the Axe+shield, or any gun variant you will need like 2 boxes just to get 6


Pretty sure you get two of sprues that has the 2 of each gun and shields.

[DarkLink]

Phil Kelly might write overall competitive books, but no one should be the least bit surprised that there might be quite a few terrible units, since that's true of most of his books.

[eldargal]

Usually the non-competitive units are just that, not-competitive. Very few are not worth taking even in friendly games. Certainly not units he has talked up as being some of the fiercest in the game.

[Leon Davies]

That is the problem for me, i can't see any situation I would run a squad of banshees in any game as they just won't make it into battle in any way to do anything
Phil even wrote they'd be awesome again and then made no changes to them
I'd have rather he made them more powerful and doubled the points so you could at least field them in a friendly or large game
Glass cannons are supposed to be able to fire

[DrLove42]

Starting to regret wishing Kelly wrote the book....my enthusiasm for my army is fading.

Also....every unit gets benefits against anything Slaneshy. In my 6 years of playing 40K, i've played against a unit of Noise Marines once, and have never faced a single Slaneshy deamon. So thats a big lump of nothing to me

Catchign up on everything posted over night - Good bye Runes of Warding. It was fun. Now we have lower physic defence than Marines

Old Harlequin Veil of Tears is a wierd throwback though

[SeekingOne]

dear god, my hands hurt

Your compassion to other people's needs is great. Thank you so much for your work.

[lattd]

So banshees with a warlock could be nasty, either +1 strength, the -1 to armour or conceal is pretty helpful. Add a farseer into the unit as well for re rolling saves/hits stick them in a falcon or add an autarch and let them outflank if an autarch can get that power.

I suspect wraith guard will only be able to be joined by spirit seers.

[DrLove42]

Interesting point - if the warlock lowers a terminators armour to 3, does a power weapon work? Do the effects stack?

[SeekingOne]

This Eldar codex seems like a mishmash of ideas with no rhyme or rhythm to it. It's like a bunch of random ideas all thrown together with no real thought behind them.

My feeling precisely. If that's indeed the real codex, I can't believe it's actually written by the same person as the previous one.

EDIT:


So banshees with a warlock could be nasty, either +1 strength, the -1 to armour or conceal is pretty helpful.
Going by the rumoured rules, Warlocks only join Guardian squads (defneders/storm and jetbikes)

[eldargal]

Interesting point - if the warlock lowers a terminators armour to 3, does a power weapon work? Do the effects stack?
I believe it would. It is still a blow to Banshees, at the moment we have to rely on a Farseer we can select power with, now we have to rely on one or more psykers with random powers.


Starting to regret wishing Kelly wrote the book....my enthusiasm for my army is fading.

Also....every unit gets benefits against anything Slaneshy. In my 6 years of playing 40K, i've played against a unit of Noise Marines once, and have never faced a single Slaneshy deamon. So thats a big lump of nothing to me

Catchign up on everything posted over night - Good bye Runes of Warding. It was fun. Now we have lower physic defence than Marines

Old Harlequin Veil of Tears is a wierd throwback though
Yep, starting to wish Ward had wrote it myself, if these rumours are completely accurate which I still doubt. Too many inconsistencies, redundancies and nonsense. Kelly may sometimes produce underpowered/useless units but it's one or two per book not:

Banshees
Swooping Hawks
Falcons
Guardians (maybe)
Autarchs
Fire Prism
Farseers (maybe)
War Walkers
Support Batteries


While others like Striking Scorpions & Harlequins are better but still face the issue of how to get them into assault range without being shot to ****.

[DrLove42]

I hope this stuff is false, but i doubt it is.

If this stuff is true, we've got more reason to whinge than Nids players do.

[Dalleron]

Assuming this is all true, it only furthers my notion that 6th ed is nothing but two middle fingers to the Eldar. Maybe they'll be good in 7th edition, and Matt Ward writes it.

[Learn2Eel]

I hope this stuff is false, but i doubt it is.

If this stuff is true, we've got more reason to whinge than Nids players do.

For better or worse, they are not false. I didn't see everything but what I saw of the codex lined up perfectly.

[DrLove42]

Yeah I'm not doubting they are really. Just wishfully thinking...

[goobi2]

And Wraithguard are I 5? From what I could see in the White Dwarf, it really looked like I 4. Could be a typo, I guess.

[Learn2Eel]

I hope this stuff is false, but i doubt it is.

If this stuff is true, we've got more reason to whinge than Nids players do.

For better or worse, they are not false. I didn't see everything but what I saw of the codex lined up perfectly.

And sorry, but your new codex looks fine for the most part. To try and compare it to what happened to the Tyranids is absolutely ridiculous. Your codex has more than a handful of at least decent choices, and isn't overly reliant on a single build to win competitively.

Edit: Silly wi-fi lol.

[eldargal]

For better or worse, they are not false. I didn't see everything but what I saw of the codex lined up perfectly.

And sorry, but your new codex looks fine for the most part. To try and compare it to what happened to the Tyranids is absolutely ridiculous. Your codex has more than a handful of at least decent choices, and isn't overly reliant on a single build to win competitively.
If these rumours are true then nearly half the book is underpowered or useless. We will have two builds, Wraith and Jetbike dominated respectively.

So far we have:
Wraithknight
Wraithguard
Spiritseer
Jetbikes
Crimson hunter
Fire Dragons

Being the only things worth taking for certain. A few more in the 'maybe' basket, like vypers and warp spiders.

[DrLove42]

I dunno. From what i'm seeing the sole competitive build is Rangers and Wraith things. In the same way a Nids book is Tervigons, Spore Doom and Iron Arm Swarmlord

[Learn2Eel]

People said the same thing about Tau. Now they are a top tier army. Do yourselves a favour and be patient. Some units may not seem worthwhile individually, but they look even better with psychic powers. The same is very much true of Tau and Markerlights. A few of the units you describe as useless are hardly so. Tyranids don't have the same luxury.

[spaceman91]

If this is true, I feel guilty about saying eldar players complain alot. Feel free to complain now, i won't stop you. :[

[goobi2]

Why is it that whenever someone complains about an Eldar Aspect someone always suggests boosting them with Psychic powers when they are already supposed to be good at doing that job on their own?

Tau have always sounded fantastic since I started following their rumor trail, and to be honest I can easily work with most of what this release entails. Just so much of it still feels so expensive, even considering the perks they give.


Side note: Wave Serpents can't get Flak Missiles? There went the #1 place to put em...

[daboarder]

People said the same thing about Tau. Now they are a top tier army. Do yourselves a favour and be patient. Some units may not seem worthwhile individually, but they look even better with psychic powers. The same is very much true of Tau and Markerlights. A few of the units you describe as useless are hardly so. Tyranids don't have the same luxury.

but the sky is falling man, the sky is falling.

I mean I've been unable to find the rule stating exarchs must challenge....or that autrachs can loose all their gear if they win said challenge.....but I'm sure its their somewhere.

Serious time:

seems nice to me, the huge ammoun of high initiative AP2 scares the bejeesus outta me.

Serpents get a 60' D6+1 shot S7 gun....wow and I thought psyflemen we're bad

Pheonix lords, nice rocking high S, low AP high I attacks, should monster things in combat.

Eldrad: still as disgusting as always



Side note: Wave Serpents can't get Flak Missiles? There went the #1 place to put em...
[/QUOTE]

I don't think they need em, that shield is ewww

[deaddice]

People said the same thing about Tau. Now they are a top tier army. Do yourselves a favour and be patient. Some units may not seem worthwhile individually, but they look even better with psychic powers. The same is very much true of Tau and Markerlights. A few of the units you describe as useless are hardly so. Tyranids don't have the same luxury.

Based on what I have seen on the rumoured rules leak I have a few concerns about howling banshees.

Currently they are un-viable even with the combined support of other units and psychic powers. You can't get them to close combat safely.

Learn 2 eels is I guess basically saying that : banshees + support = viable.

Whereas we are all worried that banshees are going to be : banshees + support = can't do **** .

I always read about Eldar being an army that needs to be used a whole rather than its individual components, one of the reasons why I collect them. However their vast number of different units in an army of specialization means that some one was always going to be bottom of the list, to me guardians were always mean to have that place ( I mean hell they are auxiliaries story wise). I would be very sad to see banshee take this spot especially when I just repainted my banshees less than a month ago.

[Learn2Eel]

If these rumours are true then nearly half the book is underpowered or useless. We will have two builds, Wraith and Jetbike dominated respectively.

So far we have:
Wraithknight
Wraithguard
Spiritseer
Jetbikes
Crimson hunter
Fire Dragons

Being the only things worth taking for certain. A few more in the 'maybe' basket, like vypers and warp spiders.

I guess our definitions of "worth taking" differ, but I fail to see how Wraithlords, Striking Scorpions, the Avatar, Farseers, Autarchs (depending on kit), Warlocks, Dark Reapers, Wave Serpents and Eldrad aren't at the very least on your list. Wraithlords may seem like they have seem like they have been "nerfed", but trust me, that extra attack will make a big difference for Smashing against high armoured vehicles now. Plus, their weapon options will probably be considerably cheaper, and that was arguably their biggest problem before. Striking Scorpions seem to be better than before from what I can tell. The Avatar is a very appropriately costed monstrous creature, and Fleet - plus those psychic powers such as Quicken - serve to make him as quick as a Keeper of Secrets and darn tougher to boot outside of greater gifts. Runes of Warding and Runes of Witnessing may have been taken down a peg, but that doesn't all of a sudden mean Farseerrs are worthless; they are a cheap as chips Mastery Level three psyker that can take Divination (and the strong Eldar powers) and come with a 4+ invulnerable save and a pretty decent defence against Perils of the Warp. I wish my evil armies could take that. Dark Reapers are a bit of an unknown as we don't know the cost of their missile upgrades, but they are cheaper and have gained Slow and Purposeful. Autarchs and Warlocks remain your flexible characters to add some psychic buffs or offensive punch where needed. Wave Serpents may start off more expensive, but they have an incredibly useful upgrade that solves their exploding issues. Eldrad looks to be darn good still, if not better.

Looking at one of my favourite units model-wise, Swooping Hawks, I can't say they are useless. They are cheaper, harder to kill, their grenade attack is darn useful, and the no-scatter on deep strike will be fun as hell. A cheap unit of five with haywire grenades popping up anywhere they please and then jumping to a vehicle and latching it with haywire grenades should prove fun. I couldn't tell but the translation hinted they may actually carry haywire blasters now?


I dunno. From what i'm seeing the sole competitive build is Rangers and Wraith things. In the same way a Nids book is Tervigons, Spore Doom and Iron Arm Swarmlord

Nothing in the Tyranid codex is "appropriately priced" aside from perhaps Hive Guard. Everything else is either too cheap or too expensive (with the results being skewed towards the latter).

[lattd]

Guardians to tie up and weaken units with banshees as counter assault, hawks as back field annoyance with a high ROF, by the looks of it, i feel that as an army thats all about synergy no one is thinking of synergies possible with this codex. Banshee's are going to be a minor target when you have wraith guard/knights and other higher priority targets. Thats how banshees and scorpions get in because they are not the big threats they will turn out to be hidden gems.

Even if warlocks can only join guardians put them on a bike in squad they got lots of ablative wounds to then weaken units. Have Shining spears got a fly by lance attack like reavers?

[daboarder]

Man those pheonix lords are brutal, and the Avatar is a fleeting beast with T6 W5 and a 5++, two shot melta?

eldrad is even filthier than before

JESUS!! wraitguards standard gun is s10 AP1

or AP2 flamers....serpent gaurd units anyone?

[Learn2Eel]

Guardians to tie up and weaken units with banshees as counter assault, hawks as back field annoyance with a high ROF, by the looks of it, i feel that as an army thats all about synergy no one is thinking of synergies possible with this codex. Banshee's are going to be a minor target when you have wraith guard/knights and other higher priority targets. Thats how banshees and scorpions get in because they are not the big threats they will turn out to be hidden gems.

Even if warlocks can only join guardians put them on a bike in squad they got lots of ablative wounds to then weaken units. Have Shining spears got a fly by lance attack like reavers?

Exactly. Like Tau and quite a few other armies, judging them on individual merits simply doesn't work. Plus, a lot of these units look just fine by themselves anyway.

[DrLove42]

The Phoenix Lords are T4, with no Invuln and no Eternal Warrior. (and Fuegan's lost his FNP from what I can see)

One power fist will kill them in a single hit.

The Avater doesn't have an Invuln save mentioned.

[daboarder]

The Phoenix Lords are T4, with no Invuln and no Eternal Warrior. (and Fuegan's lost his FNP from what I can see)

One power fist will kill them in a single hit.

The Avater doesn't have an Invuln save mentioned.

So your b*tching because your characters die like pretty much every other character in the game?

question....who is going to kill that pheonix lord before they are butchered? most are I "I go first" and AP2

Oh and they all have a 2+ save

edit: Oh and the avater is a Daemon genius

[SeekingOne]

From what I see, some stuff is good, even surprisingly so. That includes:

- Guardian Jetbikes - got WS/BS4, semi-rending shuricats, AND went down in cost by 5 points.
- Shining Spears - built-in skilled rider, still have option of hit'n'run, squad size up to 9 AND went down by 10 points. Saim-Hann FTW.
- Scorps - exarch's power fist striking in I order! If it's not a mistake, it's cool.
- Fire Prism - if it's not a typo and its large blast is indeed AP3 now, it's actually quite cool.

There's more stuff however that is just very disappoining, outrageous even. And I have to point out that much of it is due to the fact that even when a nerf or a cost increase is small, it still feels totally outrageous when they are done to a unit that already was obviously nothing special or even sub-par.

- Wave Serpents going 15 pts UP - that just almost made me freak out. The eldar codex simply has no cost-effective transport option, that's official now. I don't bloody care about those new shields, a transport just cannot cost 75+% of the transported unit's cost unless it's a Flyer or a Land Raider-level mobile fortress with "Assault Vehicle" rule. Oh well.
- Avatar's cost going 30% up - WTF?! He sure gained 1 wound but he only has 5++ now, and we now have no guaranteed Fortune to keep him alive.
- Wraithlords's cost going 30 pts up... it is +1A but -2S... and come on, +1A or no, it was anything BUT underpriced.
- Bansees... well, it was already expressed several times, I can only second what is already posted on them.
- New fliers being all AV10 - WTF?!
The list goes on...

As a complete side-note - I just can't help saying this: when, some days ago, I told ya that the new point cost of Fire Dragons is a VERY alarming sign, you mocked me :) Well, there you have it :p

[Redemption]

Guardian/Windrider Jetbikes Squads seem to have gotten a really big boost. If those leaks are accurate, they got 5pt cheaper each, gained BS4, WS4 and I5, added the Bladestorm rule to their Shuriken weaponry and the Battle Focus rule. Not sure how the latter works seeing as Jetbikes cannot Run; I'm assuming they can't shoot and turbo-boost in the same turn :rolleyes:.

Add a Warlock on Jetbike with the unit with either the +1 armour save power or the Primaris Conceal power, and they either get a 2+ armour save or a 3+ Jink save. Yum!

[SeekingOne]

Guardian/Windrider Jetbikes Squads seem to have gotten a really big boost.

This is statement true.


Add a Warlock on Jetbike with the unit with either the +1 armour save power or the Primaris Conceal power, and they either get a 2+ armour save or a 3+ Jink save. Yum!

Shrouded gives +2 cover, right? So it's 3+ on any move and 2+ on turbo-boost. Now, don't forget that you're paying +55 pts or so to include a jetbike Warlock, which most likely makes this upgrade viable only for really big bike squads. AND you still have to cast it on Ld8. Still looks nice though.

[DrLove42]

So your b*tching because your characters die like pretty much every other character in the game?

question....who is going to kill that pheonix lord before they are butchered? most are I "I go first" and AP2

Oh and they all have a 2+ save

How many characters can you name that are over 200 points (and closer to 250) that DON'T have an invuln save? Or the option of buying one.



edit: Oh and the avater is a Daemon genius

Name calling, original.

OK so the Avatar has a 5++. So his save has got worse, and he's gone up by 40ish points?

[Tyrendian]

So your b*tching because your characters die like pretty much every other character in the game?

question....who is going to kill that pheonix lord before they are butchered? most are I "I go first" and AP2

Oh and they all have a 2+ save



then again, Phoenix Lords are pretty much the definition of Eternal Warrior, for Asuryan's sake... really disappointed by this... it's not like most of them were any good beforehand (except Karandras and Illyrith)

[Learn2Eel]

From what I see, some stuff is good, even surprisingly so. That includes:

- Guardian Jetbikes - got WS/BS4, semi-rending shuricats, AND went down in cost by 5 points.
- Shining Spears - built-in skilled rider, still have option of hit'n'run, squad size up to 9 AND went down by 10 points. Saim-Hann FTW.
- Scorps - exarch's power fist striking in I order! If it's not a mistake, it's cool.
- Fire Prism - if it's not a typo and its large blast is indeed AP3 now, it's actually quite cool.

There's more stuff however that is just very disappoining, outrageous even. And I have to point out that much of it is due to the fact that even when a nerf or a cost increase is small, it still feels totally outrageous when they are done to a unit that already was obviously nothing special or even sub-par.

- Wave Serpents going 15 pts UP - that just almost made me freak out. The eldar codex simply has no cost-effective transport option, that's official now. I don't bloody care about those new shields, a transport just cannot cost 75+% of the transported unit's cost unless it's a Flyer or a Land Raider-level mobile fortress with "Assault Vehicle" rule. Oh well.
- Avatar's cost going 30% up - WTF?! He sure gained 1 wound but he only has 5++ now, and we now have no guaranteed Fortune to keep him alive.
- Wraithlords's cost going 30 pts up... it is +1A but -2S... and come on, +1A or no, it was anything BUT underpriced.
- Bansees... well, it was already expressed several times, I can only second what is already posted on them.
- New fliers being all AV10 - WTF?!
The list goes on...

As a complete side-note - I just can't help saying this: when, some days ago, I told ya that the new point cost of Fire Dragons is a VERY alarming sign, you mocked me :) Well, there you have it :p

People are forgetting that the Wave Serpent has seen a pretty darn big buff in the form of the Serpent Field; for an army that is universally Toughness three, having their primary transport come stock with equipment that counts any penetrating hit as a glancing hit on a 2+ is awesome as hell.
The Avatar has gained Fleet, Ballistic Skill 10, Initiative 10, an extra attack, an extra wound and greater immunity to flame/melta/pyromancy/soul blaze, and he was considered by some to be under-costed before. He also now comes in an army where one of their psychic powers heals wounds for free. The only downside is the reduction to the invulnerable save, but aside from that, they have fixed his biggest issue - mobility.
You seriously think a WS4 BS4 S10 T8 W3 I4 A2 LD10 3+ monstrous creature was over-priced? Look at the Tyranid codex and you will see just how amazingly wrong you are. Their only problem was the lack of attacks and, perhaps, the lack of a fourth wound. But the new cover rules in this edition and more special rules for monsters in general improved them out of sight. The only things that were over-priced about the Wraithlord were the weapon options, and it is probably safe to say that issue has been fixed.
Eldar flyers have the same armour values as Dark Eldar flyers. They can take a probably cheap upgrade that gives them a 5+ invulnerable save, and they have some brutal firepower to boot. Plus, one (or both) have vector dancer to out-maneuvre enemy flyers. I don't see the issue here.

The cost of Fire Dragons was never an issue, so I don't understand your supposed point. But whatever.

[daboarder]

OK so the Avatar has a 5++. So his save has got worse, and he's gone up by 40ish points?

so....like pretty much every MC this edition?

sorry but My Chaos daemon prince thinks you have nothing to complain about, and that not even the daemon prince that USED to be my 200+ point lord

[Learn2Eel]

How many characters can you name that are over 200 points (and closer to 250) that DON'T have an invuln save? Or the option of buying one.



Name calling, original.

OK so the Avatar has a 5++. So his save has got worse, and he's gone up by 40ish points?

Look at the Tyranid codex. There's your answer.
I think you need to look at it from a meta perspective. Unless you are being shot at - but they are independent characters in an army that can hug cover with little penalty owing to Fleet, and one of them has Shrouded anyway - the invulnerable save won't matter too much when most of them can rip apart most enemy characters before they can strike. The number of characters that strike at Initiative seven or greater and with an AP of two are very rare. It isn't as big a concern as you think when most of the Phoenix Lords are brutal in melee.

He has gone up by 40 points, but gained an extra wound (which is far better anyway in an edition where S7 AP4 is more prevalent, also cover saves make up for it), a far better stat-line overall, Fleet - to fix his biggest issue of mobility (only slightly slower than a Keeper of Secrets) - and much better immunity to flame stuff, including making several psychic disciplines almost irrelevant. I'm not seeing the issue here when, with the extra attack and higher Initiative, he can decidedly rip off a Black Mace Daemon Prince's head reliably before it gets a chance to land even one strike back. Call me crazy, but that sounds like a big buff to me.

[Mr Mystery]

I could bring up my earlier comments about nothing ever being good enough. But I shan't. I am a bigger man than that!

[Learn2Eel]

I could bring up my earlier comments about nothing ever being good enough. But I shan't. I am a bigger man than that!

What I find ironic is that a few of the people complaining this very moment are the same ones that tell other players to calm down and wait for the codex to be released when their army is re-done. I understand that initial impressions are almost universally bad, but I simply can't see why people are so upset when clearly there's more to every codex than meets the eye. Forumites over on Warseer and many other places - even here - were labeling the Tau codex a disappointment before it even had the chance to impress them. Now it is quickly developing into one of the premier competitive armies. Food for thought.

Anyone else noticed that Illic allows you to Infiltrate as close to enemy units as you want with the unit he joins? Hi there Terminators/Crisis Team/Long Fangs. Eat five to ten S4 AP2 flame templates that inflict instant death (and auto penetrate vehicles) on a 6.

I saw someone (not here) say that Wraithguard guns are worse against vehicles. Funnily enough, they aren't. S10 AP2 means that they are much more likely to penetrate/glance vehicles that are AV13 and lower, whereas their damage output is almost identical (glancing on 4s rather than 3s) against Land Raiders. Plus, S10 AP2 means that they don't need to roll a six to inflict instant death on T5 or lower models. Not bad at all.

Quite a lot of the stuff in the army seems tailor made to deal with low Initiative armies - surprise surprise, two of the top-tier armies right now are Necrons and Tau, both with low Initiative scores across the board. Mono-filament weapons gain bonuses to Strength against units with Initiative 3 or lower, and there are quite a few Blind tests in this army - like the no-scatter "everyone in 6" takes a blind test" Baharroth.

[Finnegan]

Add a Warlock on Jetbike with the unit with either the +1 armour save power or the Primaris Conceal power, and they either get a 2+ armour save or a 3+ Jink save. Yum!

And we've got those cool, new guardians jetbikes and warlocks on jetbikes, yay...!
Oh, wait, we don't have, but no worry, buy the old jetbike models (Now Repacked!) to make use of new, cool rules and points decrease! And have no worry, GW storages are full of them.

/sarcasm off

Increasing price of Wave Serpents is ridiculous (comparing with Rhino/Chimera cost decrease in last editions), as well as ridiculous is AV 10 for all eldar flyers... Comparing to that, Void Raven is truly marvelous design with AV 11

And the "one use only" rules... Have no words. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r9fXF2A-lU

Sad, but we are dying race, tormented by fate and codex rules, condemned to dwell on the glory of 3ed... :rolleyes:

[Mr Mystery]

Well indeed. Until that book is in your hands, it's all just rumours. Not meaning to single out any given rumour monger, but even at this late stage people still make stuff up.... Trust no one! At least, trust no one when it comes to rumours!

As for the stuff people are getting upset about....this is an Eldar army yes? You were expecting heavy armour on your fliers? Pour quoi? Eternal Warrior? Erm...you just put the armour on another dude, then it's back to business. They remain Eldar, and thus surprisingly squishy if you can actually land a blow on the slippery sods....

Banshees? Yeah ok, that one sucks. Their role appears to remain fairly ill defined.

[daboarder]

So how many people have read about the waveserpents 60 range S7 gun of doom shield...completely awesome

[DrLove42]

So how many people have read about the waveserpents 60 range S7 gun of doom shield...completely awesome

Its an interesting rule...gambling off your protection (although that isn't as good as it used to be - maybe) for a weapon of random power.

60" seems a little crazy though. Is it a typo and supposed to be 6"? Wonder if you could use in Overwatch if your vehicle gets charged?

[Learn2Eel]

And we've got those cool, new guardians jetbikes and warlocks on jetbikes, yay...!
Oh, wait, we don't have, but no worry, buy the old jetbike models (Now Repacked!) to make use of new, cool rules and points decrease! And have no worry, GW storages are full of them.

/sarcasm off

Increasing price of Wave Serpents is ridiculous (comparing with Rhino/Chimera cost decrease in last editions), as well as ridiculous is AV 10 for all eldar flyers... Comparing to that, Void Raven is truly marvelous design with AV 11

And the "one use only" rules... Have no words. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r9fXF2A-lU

Sad, but we are dying race, tormented by fate and codex rules, condemned to dwell on the glory of 3ed... :rolleyes:

Wave Serpents are much harder to destroy for some armies though, with them coming stock with an upgrade that treats penetrating hits as glancing hits on a D6 roll of a 2+. They aren't perfect, but given that the chances of them exploding are now slim to none, I think that is a very decent buff. Plus, cheaper weapon options anyone?

You aren't the first army to get one-use-only stuff. I saw someone complain about one-use-only Warlord Traits and attribute it as some kind of horrendous mistake, even though Tau are doing just fine with theirs. If the items are cheap, what is the issue? Sometimes I think people refuse to look at other codices when they make these claims.


Well indeed. Until that book is in your hands, it's all just rumours. Not meaning to single out any given rumour monger, but even at this late stage people still make stuff up.... Trust no one! At least, trust no one when it comes to rumours!

As for the stuff people are getting upset about....this is an Eldar army yes? You were expecting heavy armour on your fliers? Pour quoi? Eternal Warrior? Erm...you just put the armour on another dude, then it's back to business. They remain Eldar, and thus surprisingly squishy if you can actually land a blow on the slippery sods....

Banshees? Yeah ok, that one sucks. Their role appears to remain fairly ill defined.

They are accurate; about the only issues might be translation (so minor) stuff. You don't have to trust me, but I saw it for myself. And honestly, I'm not really disappointed at all. This is about what I expected from a new Eldar codex; people were expecting something amazing, but what they got was a well-needed update more than anything else. The same happened with Chaos Space Marines, and the initial reaction to the two books has been unsurprisingly almost identical; like with Chaos Marines though, I expect the resentment to simmer down very quickly. I wanted a Chaos codex that represented the legions as much as everybody else, but we still got a fair update and were brought in line with the other codices; from what I can tell, the same is true with Eldar. I think people need to show a little more faith in Kelly. And thankfully, it doesn't look like we have another Heldrake on our hands either.

[murgel]

Some things are very nice in those leaks.

Some things are disgusting to see.

And some things I really can't understand.
Eldar have always been about specialists and working together but now this gets ludicrous.
We had 3 CC specialists with the Scorpions for low armoured horde, The banshees plus psy-support for high armoured small units and last but not least the Harlequins as a go in between and general Banshee substitute.
Now we have 5 CC specialists!
Assuming that, by some miracle, we still can get Banshees to work.
Scorpions are now really good anti horde again.
Harlequins seem to be the same as before.
Wraithblades with Axes are our anti heavy-armoured-CC-small-squads-unit. (read TH/SS or other CC Termies)
Wraithblades with swords are our anti heavy/medium-armoured-squads-unit. (read Termies/Nasty-Marines)

I love this idea of having the right tool for the right situation. BUT we have problems.
1. Where in the FOC to put all the units you have to have?
2. Where to get the points from?

Frankly, I see the complains of the tournament players clearly are justivied. You can build fantastic armies with this leaked dex but only if you know what you are facing. An all-commers list has been difficult for CWE before but now is even more so.
For narrative games, when knowing, roughly, what is coming it looks like a nice to great codex to me.
Even for that, there are some obvious blunders that should have been avoided.

PS: I always said that MW would have been the better choice :p

[Aldavaer]

Given what we have seen of the rules from the new codex I have some concerns, whilst it is not all doom and gloom there are things that are worrying. A lot of point values seem to have increased and we have seen an increases in stats etc. to offset that. I think the devil is going to be in the detail which we won't really know until we have our codexes in our hands and have had time to read properly and think about the options.

The problem will be one of numbers, particularly at lower point levels. Yes eldar are an elite army and therefore will have less figures on the table. They can hit hard but they are fragile, I think we may face a fine line in having enough targets on the table for some to survive long enough to cause damage and hold objectives.

[Nickolay Naryzhnyy]

So how many people have read about the waveserpents 60 range S7 gun of doom shield...completely awesome

I'd personally prefer a cost-effective transport to that 'gun of doom shield'

[daboarder]

Its an interesting rule...gambling off your protection (although that isn't as good as it used to be - maybe) for a weapon of random power.

60" seems a little crazy though. Is it a typo and supposed to be 6"? Wonder if you could use in Overwatch if your vehicle gets charged?

You'll still get your cover save though, so thats fairly solid in and of itself, especially with the +1 wargear option

[Souba]

All phoenix lords got eternal warrior. Its also in the leak. Learn to read. Some of you :)

[daboarder]

well....thats just scary!

[Mr Mystery]

I'd personally prefer a cost-effective transport to that 'gun of doom shield'

As would my Necron Warriors..... Nightscythe? Well, I get called a powergamer if I field more than a couple, and I can't get them to come on when I want them to.... Ghost Ark? For an open topped, slow moving transport, it's hella expensive and near impossible to hide!

[DrLove42]

Wonder if Wave Serpents will be able to buy holofields now

I will say another thing (:P) Kelly doesn't write good Warlord traits.

The army specific traits here seem really wimpy and generic, the same as the Chaos Marines book, whereas those in the Tau and to my memory DA books seem much more of a buff.

I'm calming down a bit after the initial disapoint of this morning, and will wait with baited breath for my codex on Saturday. I'm just not as enthusiastic as before.

And just have to see if the Iyanden book contains anything interesting in rules as well

[Finnegan]

I'd personally prefer a cost-effective transport to that 'gun of doom shield'

Amen to that :)



I'm calming down a bit after the initial disapoint of this morning, and will wait with baited breath for my codex on Saturday. I'm just not as enthusiastic as before.

And to that as well :)

[Learn2Eel]

Wonder if Wave Serpents will be able to buy holofields now

I will say another thing (:P) Kelly doesn't write good Warlord traits.

The army specific traits here seem really wimpy and generic, the same as the Chaos Marines book, whereas those in the Tau and to my memory DA books seem much more of a buff.

I'm calming down a bit after the initial disapoint of this morning, and will wait with baited breath for my codex on Saturday. I'm just not as enthusiastic as before.

And just have to see if the Iyanden book contains anything interesting in rules as well

The Daemon Warlord traits are (in my opinion) still the best of this edition considering the context of its army. Some of them are down-right insane.

[murgel]

I'd personally prefer a cost-effective transport to that 'gun of doom shield'
agreed.

And besides what do you need penetration protection for? You die to glancing this days anyway. Sure you will less likely explode but sou still have 3HP.
But the new serpent gun is funny.
*And at only 25 points a real bargain....* sarc.

[Souba]

Vehicle upgrades are:
Star engines
Holo fields
Crystal targeting matrix
Soulstones
Vector trusters
Ghostpath matrix

Every vehicle with acces to vehicle upgrades have access to them.

Only one thing on the crystal targeting matrix: if a vehicle in a squadron selects it. All vehicles in the same unit have to buy that upgrade

[DrLove42]

The Daemon Warlord traits are (in my opinion) still the best of this edition considering the context of its army. Some of them are down-right insane.

Is true - but he didn't write deamons alone.

[SeekingOne]

People are forgetting that the Wave Serpent has seen a pretty darn big buff in the form of the Serpent Field; for an army that is universally Toughness three, having their primary transport come stock with equipment that counts any penetrating hit as a glancing hit on a 2+ is awesome as hell.

No it's not. And please spare me that primitive stereotypical bs about a WS being "oh so invaluable buff" to T3. I played Eldar competitively for more than enough time to know from hard practice and real experience what a WS is worth.

But just so you know, the point is simple: a WS is not powerful enough to count as an efficient battle tank on its own, therefore it is still mostly a transport. A transport is, effectively, a delivery system. And guess what - a delivery system is ONLY worth as much as a payload it delivers. Simply put, with but a precious few exceptions (of which at least one - full-sized Seer Council on foot - is no longer viable), the Eldar codex simply doesn't have foot units that are powerful enough to justify a delivery system that is so ridiculously expensive.


You seriously think a WS4 BS4 S10 T8 W3 I4 A2 LD10 3+ monstrous creature was over-priced? Look at the Tyranid codex and you will see just how amazingly wrong you are.
AT the very least it wasn't underpriced. W3 is VERY poor as far as durability goes. I'll take T6 W6 over T8 W3 any day.
And to be honest, I don't care about Tyranid codex, as most experienced players would tell you that it's generally sub-par compared to most other codices out there.


Eldar flyers have the same armour values as Dark Eldar flyers.

I don't have DE codex at hand, but I vaguely remember that their bomber is AV11. Also, don't you realise that this is an almost entirely pointless argument on your side? Eldar flyers have the same armour values as Dark Eldar flyers - so what? How does that make AV10 any better?! Eldar flyers look quite poorly, just as DE ones do.


They can take a probably cheap upgrade that gives them a 5+ invulnerable save
Where did you get that bit? Leaked rules have nothing like that.


I don't see the issue here.

I'm sorry to say this, but perhaps you just need to look a bit harder.


The cost of Fire Dragons was never an issue, so I don't understand your supposed point. But whatever.

My point is that I can smell a poorly designed codex entry from miles away. And the FD entry was just that. So I expressed my opinion here that such entry is a very alarming sign of a potentially poor codex design. And now, as you can see, pretty much everyone here, except you and daboarder, seem to agree that if the leaked rules are true, then it's looks like a really poor design. If you don't agree with that, re-read the thread. And if you want to keep insisting than you're smarter than everyone here, then I can only wish you to enjoy yourself :)

[Mr Mystery]

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4615712181256989&pid=1.7&w=127&h=137&c=7&rs=1
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4819469697615008&pid=1.7&w=152&h=149&c=7&rs=1

[lattd]

Surely a delivery system that can reliably deliver again and again is worth more?

[DrLove42]

Surely a delivery system that can reliably deliver again and again is worth more?

Nothing to do with the Eldar codex here, but how often do you find yourself with a unit that is transported, gets out, does its job, then gets back in said transport and moves away?

[eldargal]

What I find ironic is that a few of the people complaining this very moment are the same ones that tell other players to calm down and wait for the codex to be released when their army is re-done.
We are also the ones saying we think most of this is garbled bollocks or outright lies. We don't have the full picture yet that much is clear and no one is indulging in the kind of hysterics we usually see accompanying each release. From what is rumoured so far many units are underpowered if you accept the rumours at face value. Which I do not, I will not make a final judgement until the codex is in my hands.

I have also said that the book itseld probably won't be bad even with some of the potentially uninspiring units as there are still quite a few good choices to be had. But to say eldar players shouldn't be worried based on this rumours is simply absurd when many big problems with the way the army operates seem to have gone unchanged.

People are forgetting that the Wave Serpent has seen a pretty darn big buff in the form of the Serpent Field; for an army that is universally Toughness three, having their primary transport come stock with equipment that counts any penetrating hit as a glancing hit on a 2+ is awesome as hell.
The Wave Serpent is good, yes, but it is not a good transport at least when it comes to assault troops as it is not an assault vehicle. I'm also not convinced a price rise was justified even with the wave thing.

It also raises the problem that our transport is now more durable and has greater offensive capacity than the falcon, our main battle tank!:rolleyes:

I would happily trade the 2+ save against penetrating hits and the 60" S7 wave for assault vehicle and shrouded.

On the bright side yay for Phoenix Lords still having EW.


All phoenix lords got eternal warrior. Its also in the leak. Learn to read. Some of you :)
Could you please clarify a few things:
What does Acrobatics do for Banshees?
How long does the effect of their Banshee scream last?
Do they have grenades?
Does the wave serpent have any option to become an assault vehicle.

[Learn2Eel]

agreed.

And besides what do you need penetration protection for? You die to glancing this days anyway. Sure you will less likely explode but sou still have 3HP.
But the new serpent gun is funny.
*And at only 25 points a real bargain....* sarc.

They come with a shuriken cannon now, so it is more like 15 points.
You have to look at it from a Dark Eldar players' perspective; exploding transports for low Toughness (and generally mediocre to low save) Infantry sucks hard. Not having to worry about that for the most part is very, very handy.


No it's not. And please spare me that primitive stereotypical bs about a WS being "oh so invaluable buff" to T3. I played Eldar competitively for more than enough time to know from hard practice and real experience what a WS is worth.

But just so you know, the point is simple: a WS is not powerful enough to count as an efficient battle tank on its own, therefore it is still mostly a transport. A transport is, effectively, a delivery system. And guess what - a delivery system is ONLY worth as much as a payload it delivers. Simply put, with but a precious few exceptions (of which at least one - full-sized Seer Council on foot - is no longer viable), the Eldar codex simply doesn't have foot units that are powerful enough to justify a delivery system that is so ridiculously expensive.


AT the very least it wasn't underpriced. W3 is VERY poor as far as durability goes. I'll take T6 W6 over T8 W3 any day.
And to be honest, I don't care about Tyranid codex, as most experienced players would tell you that it's generally sub-par compared to most other codices out there.



I don't have DE codex at hand, but I vaguely remember that their bomber is AV11. Also, don't you realise that this is an almost entirely pointless argument on your side? Eldar flyers have the same armour values as Dark Eldar flyers - so what? How does that make AV10 any better?! Eldar flyers look quite poorly, just as DE ones do.


Where did you get that bit? Leaked rules have nothing like that.


I'm sorry to say this, but perhaps you just need to look a bit harder.


My point is that I can smell a poorly designed codex entry from miles away. And the FD entry was just that. So I expressed my opinion here that such entry is a very alarming sign of a potentially poor codex design. And now, as you can see, pretty much everyone here, except you and daboarder, seem to agree that if the leaked rules are true, then it's looks like a really poor design. If you don't agree with that, re-read the thread. And if you want to keep insisting than you're smarter than everyone here, then I can only wish you to enjoy yourself :)

And I've played Dark Eldar enough to know that exploding transports for Toughness three models is horrible, especially when most units in your army have a 4+ armour save or worse. Your choice of words merely serves to highlight how pointless it is to argue with you, but I digress.

How much does a Tau Devilfish cost? The Wave Serpent shoots better (objectively), is harder to destroy, has access to similar upgrades that boost cover saves or provide an invulnerable save, and has a lot more units available to it for transport. Unlike the Devilfish, it also doesn't have to worry about exploding results. Whilst I agree that keeping transports cheap is the best way to go, the reality is that you pay those points for more than double the mobility of most armies' transports. Moving 12", firing two guns at full Ballistic Skill and then moving flat out 24" or more is far better than what is available to most other armies, especially when you get a 4+ cover save for doing it - or 5+ for just moving it. AV12/12/10 may not seem like much next to AV11/11/10, but when cover saves and a greater mobility are thrown in to the mix - plus the superior firepower - they look more worth it to me than you would claim. And again, the Serpent Field is very handy. I think a few units that will benefit greatly from Wave Serpents, to name a few, are; Wraithblades, Wraithguard, Seer Councils (and why isn't this viable exactly?), Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees (people will try and succeed to make them work just as they did with Berzerkers) and more.

You do realize anything that is T6 W6 is typically more than double the price of a Wraithlord, with few exceptions (the under-priced Tervigon, for one), right? The benefit is being immune to small arms fire, and trust me, that makes a big difference when your armour save is 3+ - like most other monstrous creatures. I agree that 3 wounds isn't great, but for its cost, I wouldn't complain. Not to mention that Wraithlords, unlike those other monstrous creatures, tend to have guns that can, you know, do a tonne of damage.
Well what else are you going to compare your monstrous creatures to? Wraithlords are cheap and reliable.

The bomber is AV11/11/10.
Where did I say it was great? I merely said that there is a precedent for it. The Eldar flyers embody what we've come to expect from the race as a whole; fast as hell (vector dancer), hard-hitting (the firepower on both fliers puts most other fliers in the game to shame), weak as tissue paper. They aren't ridiculously expensive and in an engagement of fliers their vector dancer special rule will allow them to get the upper hand very quickly.

Look around. Under vehicle equipment, there is a forcefield that grants a 5+ invulnerable save.

I've looked at the codex in hand. I've studied every codex in the game in great detail. You can trust me when I say that Eldar are not going to turn out nearly as badly as people think. Every time an army is redone, the fans inevitably come out and declare it a weaker codex or a poorly written hatch-job after it has been leaked. After sitting with it for a few days or weeks, they inevitably change their tune. I've seen it too many times before to see this as any different now.

Ok.....what is so bad about Fire Dragons? Each model has a meltagun and meltabombs. On a common trooper, those add up to 15 points. Are you telling me a WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I5 A1 LD8/9 3+ body with Fleet, run and shoot or shoot and run, in a codex that has easier access to blessings than anyone isn't worth 7 points? Colour me surprised, but that seems rather silly; and if you are going to use the "everyone is disagreeing with you" arc, then you should find - if you follow your own advice - that most disagreed with you on that point. And by the way, daboarder and I aren't the only ones that feel that it is not poor design. eldargal said she was impressed overall - save for a few exceptions - as have several others. You should also look around at other forums and then see how illogical your "statement" was.

Also, I laughed at your last snide comment. First off, when do I ever insist I am smarter than anyone? Tell me. Show me. You have no idea how completely moronic that claim is. Secondly, I will enjoy myself. I will enjoy myself playing an army that rewards strategic and tactical nous. Cheers.

[Mr Mystery]

Acrobatics...going off WD, appears 'move, run, assault' as they are listed as 'being amongst the fastest assault units in the game'. Could be blustre, could be true. Could even mean that unit treats all vehicles as assault vehicles.

[eldargal]

Dark Eldar at least has a cheap and reliable mechanism for getting its assault units into combat, and they can assault out of their vehicles. But can we stop comparing to other codices? that is really pointless. Just because tyranids suck doesn't change that these rumours point to significant issues with a larger number of units. Those issues may or may not disappear as our knowledge of their rules and context grows.


Acrobatics...going off WD, appears 'move, run, assault' as they are listed as 'being amongst the fastest assault units in the game'. Could be blustre, could be true. Could even mean that unit treats all vehicles as assault vehicles.
That would be some mitigation, losing a couple of models to overwatch is less significant if you aren't standing around in the open for a turn waiting politely for your enemy to shoot the **** out of you before assauling them. It still doesn't address the lack of grenades, low strength, and middling AP though.

Also, believe me when I say nothing will give me greater pleasure than to be utterly wrong about Banshees and the rest.

[murgel]

Tyranids have problems. They have a 5th ed.codex. Eldar had a 4th ed one and are now getting a new one.
As We know Tyranids are in the pipeline, rumoured to arrive in January, it might be better to wait with comparing the MCs.
We all know Eldar currently has the bigger one :D

Concerning the Serpent I have to agree with SeekingOne. The new rules are in no way what I would have done, nor what others would have.
BUT if we can do holofields for it that is a nice touch. If we could buy the forcefield (5++) it would really help.
Consequently I expect to be allowed only one of them so....

Has someone compared the math of Axe/shield WB against TH/SS in pointsvalue?
If so please show. My own seems to be faulty and I do not know why?

[Learn2Eel]

Nothing to do with the Eldar codex here, but how often do you find yourself with a unit that is transported, gets out, does its job, then gets back in said transport and moves away?

I do it frequently with my Chaos Space Marines. I jump out, deal with immediate threats, then jump back in and move straight for an objective. You can apply a similar logic to Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons - though with the latter it would be more a case of "destroyed tank one, moving to destroy tank two". In that sense, a transport as fast and durable as a Wave Serpent comes in handy if you want it for more than one delivery run.


We are also the ones saying we think most of this is garbled bollocks or outright lies. We don't have the full picture yet that much is clear and no one is indulging in the kind of hysterics we usually see accompanying each release. From what is rumoured so far many units are underpowered if you accept the rumours at face value. Which I do not, I will not make a final judgement until the codex is in my hands.

I have also said that the book itseld probably won't be bad even with some of the potentially uninspiring units as there are still quite a few good choices to be had. But to say eldar players shouldn't be worried based on this rumours is simply absurd when many big problems with the way the army operates seem to have gone unchanged.

The Wave Serpent is good, yes, but it is not a good transport at least when it comes to assault troops as it is not an assault vehicle. I'm also not convinced a price rise was justified even with the wave thing.

It also raises the problem that our transport is now more durable and has greater offensive capacity than the falcon, our main battle tank!:rolleyes:

I would happily trade the 2+ save against penetrating hits and the 60" S7 wave for assault vehicle and shrouded.

On the bright side yay for Phoenix Lords still having EW.

I'm not saying you were. I was more referring to people across all of the forums, and it really is happening everywhere. It irritates me because it is the same story every time an army is redone, without fail.

I know. As far as how the army operates, look at Chaos Space Marines and their assault troops. It just doesn't work. In fact, look at any army at the moment that lacks assault transports or infiltrate as a commodity. They just can't do assaults well. It sucks, I know, but Eldar are hardly the only ones with that issue. Striking a balance with an elite army that is supposed to be fragile is difficult, but I personally think this codex will prove to be just fine. I think what people will initially struggle with is finding the right mix for their army; Eldar are, by their nature, built around synergy and having the right unit for the right job. It might just be my experience as a Tyranid player, but I don't see an issue at all here when I look at the codex in that way.

I understand that it isn't the best assault transport, but again, unless it is open-topped all GW authors seem reluctant to hand out assault vehicle at all (no point in mentioning ground/flying Land Raiders). Chaos Marines have wargear that denies Overwatch to compensate. From what I can tell, Eldar have Pinning tests and cover boosts out the wazoo. You wouldn't believe how many people I've seen complain about Fortune and Guide and the like - not that I ever felt they were justified, mind. At the very least, Striking Scorpions and Wraithblades don't need to worry about it too much; the former naturally Infiltrates, the latter is tough enough not to care.
Agreed on the Falcon. It does seem odd. The Falcon appears to come with a pulsar though - I am assuming that means it comes stock with a bright lance.
Well hey, you can get +4 Jink saves by taking that +1 cover upgrade (which will likely cost the same as it does for Tau). And unlike their vehicles, yours are side 12 and can move even faster.

[Learn2Eel]

Tyranids have problems. They have a 5th ed.codex. Eldar had a 4th ed one and are now getting a new one.
As We know Tyranids are in the pipeline, rumoured to arrive in January, it might be better to wait with comparing the MCs.
We all know Eldar currently has the bigger one :D

Concerning the Serpent I have to agree with SeekingOne. The new rules are in no way what I would have done, nor what others would have.
BUT if we can do holofields for it that is a nice touch. If we could buy the forcefield (5++) it would really help.
Consequently I expect to be allowed only one of them so....

Has someone compared the math of Axe/shield WB against TH/SS in pointsvalue?
If so please show. My own seems to be faulty and I do not know why?


Wraithblades have one less attack, one less Strength, no concussive, have a 3+ armour save as opposed to a 2+ armour save, have a 5+ invulnerable save as opposed to 3+, but are Toughness six and quite a bit cheaper. Ultimately, I think TH/SS Terminators are still under-priced compared to their other variants but eh. Wraithblades look decent enough.

[daboarder]

The plus one cover does cost the same as for tau, it was posted on BoK the other day, BARGAIN!

NB: Wraithblades are significantly cheaper than THSS too

enough so that you could almost take a Wraith guard squad along for the same points

[Finnegan]

Hey, don't get me wrong... Yes, for that cost, with AV12, fast, skimmer, shockblastin'asskickin'shieldofdoom and basic weaponry options, WS is decent medium tank (better than Falcon, as Eldargal said) and with transport capacity of 12(stilll?)... BUT with the increased point cost of units that usually buy it as DT (guardians, Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons) and cost of vehicle upgrades, the overall price is very high... I wonder where I'll find points in my army list for other units...

[Learn2Eel]

Hey, don't get me wrong... Yes, for that cost, with AV12, fast, skimmer, shockblastin'asskickin'shieldofdoom and basic weaponry options, WS is decent medium tank (better than Falcon, as Eldargal said) and with transport capacity of 12(stilll?)... BUT with the increased point cost of units that usually buy it as DT (guardians, Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons) and cost of vehicle upgrades, the overall price is very high... I wonder where I'll find points in my army list for other units...

It always depends on your points limits, as some options naturally shine in larger games. The way I look at it, Dire Avengers are ever so slightly more expensive (for a full squad, it is only 10 points more, but the Exarch is cheaper to offset that) and they are undoubtedly stronger, with better guns and the run/shoot or shoot/run ability. Now, they also come with assault grenades and counter attack. They seem like a pretty decent mounted Troop unit.
Like with Tau and Chaos Space Marines, armies that don't use transports may prove to be more popular (wait and see on that one). Infiltrating Striking Scorpions, Guardians set up for back-field support, Jetbikes for mobile harassment/scoring, etc. In fact, an all-Jetbike army looks great now, with significant points reductions across the board and performance improvements.

[eldargal]

I might end up using my Banshee Farseer bodyguard squad as Striking Scorpions or a Seer Council, they look distinctive enough to not be confused for the garden variety Banshee.

[Learn2Eel]

Another use I've found for Swooping Hawks, particularly if you went second; deep strike onto an objective your opponent is going for/holding. The no scatter is ace. 3 shots each at S3 AP5, on top of their grenade attack makes them a pretty clear anti-light infantry unit. And they are a lot cheaper too, with better armour. Massive improvement here. If an Autarch that takes Swooping Hawk wings gains the same upgrades (which I assume they do), then using one with a fusion gun will be a trollface-worthy tank hunting unit. Jump down behind a valuable tank, blow it up. If you don't die (4+ armour!), jump back out. If not, your opponent just wasted their time trying to kill a cheap (like 160 point) suicide unit that made their points back in one turn (you could even go it alone with the Autarch, if you are feeling cagey). They might not be everyone's favourite but I am certainly going to use them and have a lot of fun.

[deaddice]

Another use I've found for Swooping Hawks, particularly if you went second; deep strike onto an objective your opponent is going for/holding. The no scatter is ace. 3 shots each at S3 AP5, on top of their grenade attack makes them a pretty clear anti-light infantry unit. And they are a lot cheaper too, with better armour. Massive improvement here.

They get heavy aspect armour ?, well guess that why they land without scatter, more wind resistance :cool:

[Learn2Eel]

Oops sorry, I thought for a minute they had 5+ armour in the previous codex. My bad!

Hmm, I think I found something that could prove to be very....fun....but it depends on how the Faolchus (spelling?) Wing is worded. If it says you can't shoot after doing the Run move, then there would be no reason you can't shoot and then run, right (battle focus)? *If* that is the case, take an Autarch with Swooping Hawks upgrade (presuming they get the same special rules) and a melta gun or whatever is to your taste. Deep-strike behind a valuable target, blow it up, and then run 48" to anywhere you want to get out of harm's way. Next turn, jump back up. Rinse and repeat. Again, depends heavily on wording of rules, but if it is possible.....:cool: Would probably be decently cheap, and hilarious as hell. Competitive? I dunno, but fun, very fun.

[Mr Mystery]

Faolchus Wing is 'run and do nowt else'. No shooting. No assaulting. I saw that with my eyes from the WD preview.

[Finnegan]

3 shots each at S3 AP5,
Lasblaster is now Assault 3?

If the rumours are right, guardians gain Plasma Grenades, one platform for every 10 in squad, Support Platform has T5 W1 Sv 3+
Interesting...

[daboarder]

Lasblaster is now Assault 3?

If the rumours are right, guardians gain Plasma Grenades, one platform for every 10 in squad, Support Platform has T5 W1 Sv 3+
Interesting...

If its not artillery (which would make the unit all T5) it doesn't really count (majority toughness)

[Carstens]

I'm with Learn2Eel on this one, I'm having a very hard time understanding the backlash and anger. (well apart from the Banshee one) There's so many fantastic and interesting things in the rumors.


- War walkers have got Battle focus so they'll be able to dodge in and out of LoS. even the rather massive 20p points increase is somewhat offset by the +bs and shield.

- Swooping hawks are only 16points for a hawire grenade with a jumpack that doesn't scatter when deep striking. (If you can't find a use for that, you need to play with more terrain)

- Wave serpent with star engines/scatter lasers/serpent shield will decimate the rear/side armour of anything that gets slightly out of position. and also functions as a fantastic and safe transport.

- Farseers are extremly cheap for what they bring, warlocks are decented with a chance of awesome. and the 24inch range means that farseers offer actual army wide support and is no longer just a unit upgrade.

- Dark reapers are cheaper, can be taken in bigger units to benifit more from guide, can get varried missiles and get to hide against the alpha strike (or can even be used from reserves)

- 10 Guardians with a scatter laser have the equivalent close range firepower against 3+ armour of 18 marines (2 of which are using plasma)

- Vypers stayed the same price but got a bs boost and combined with the longer range of guide or use of Scatter lasers will allow them a lot more freedom of movement without losing firepower.

- Harlequins returned to their original state (which I loved but I realize that a lot of people preferred the new rules, so this can be seen as both a pro and a con)

and the list goes on and on. Banshees are pretty much the only unit I find underwhelming but I'm still holding out hope for acrobatics. :)

[Sonikgav]

Im looking at this Ranger Charachter with some suspicion. He can Infiltrate right next to enemy units, and take ANY friendly unit with him? Then I look at Wraithguard with AP2 flamers.

This is going to become more common than the Aegis line. Why wouldnt anyone take this? Providing you go first you have the means to virtually remove an enemy unit for free.

Then when it comes to the following turn you have a unit, more than likely in cover, with majority T6, a 3+ save and im guessing Stealth/Shrouded from the charachter? And if anyones dumb enough to assault it theres an AP2 wall of death to get through...

Tell u what, if your opponent is more Mechanised lets try those S10 AP1 Wraithcannons instead...

Ill be amazed if this doesnt start popping up allied to any army that can take it. At least you can only do it once.

[Autarch]

I like the rumors so far. Bummed there's nothing about the Wave Serpent being an assault transport. That being said I'm glad I invested in dark eldar allies. Incubi are going to be very important to my army...

[Learn2Eel]

Lasblaster is now Assault 3?

If the rumours are right, guardians gain Plasma Grenades, one platform for every 10 in squad, Support Platform has T5 W1 Sv 3+
Interesting...

I can't find it now, but I saw Swooping Hawk stuff mentioned somewhere; lasblasters are now three shots, if memory serves me correctly. The grenades they drop also become stronger/larger depending on, I think it was the number of models in the unit? Can't remember for sure.


I'm with Learn2Eel on this one, I'm having a very hard time understanding the backlash and anger. (well apart from the Banshee one) There's so many fantastic and interesting things in the rumors.


- War walkers have got Battle focus so they'll be able to dodge in and out of LoS. even the rather massive 20p points increase is somewhat offset by the +bs and shield.

- Swooping hawks are only 16points for a hawire grenade with a jumpack that doesn't scatter when deep striking. (If you can't find a use for that, you need to play with more terrain)

- Wave serpent with star engines/scatter lasers/serpent shield will decimate the rear/side armour of anything that gets slightly out of position. and also functions as a fantastic and safe transport.

- Farseers are extremly cheap for what they bring, warlocks are decented with a chance of awesome. and the 24inch range means that farseers offer actual army wide support and is no longer just a unit upgrade.

- Dark reapers are cheaper, can be taken in bigger units to benifit more from guide, can get varried missiles and get to hide against the alpha strike (or can even be used from reserves)

- 10 Guardians with a scatter laser have the equivalent close range firepower against 3+ armour of 18 marines (2 of which are using plasma)

- Vypers stayed the same price but got a bs boost and combined with the longer range of guide or use of Scatter lasers will allow them a lot more freedom of movement without losing firepower.

- Harlequins returned to their original state (which I loved but I realize that a lot of people preferred the new rules, so this can be seen as both a pro and a con)

and the list goes on and on. Banshees are pretty much the only unit I find underwhelming but I'm still holding out hope for acrobatics. :)

Wow, I missed that War Walkers have Battle Focus as well. Not to mention they also have Fleet! That and the whole WS4 BS4 thing is very nice, that and even though they are more expensive base they do come stock with a pair of shuriken cannons. The 5+ invulnerable save, on top of the other buffs, means they still look like a great choice.
Agree with all the rest.


Im looking at this Ranger Charachter with some suspicion. He can Infiltrate right next to enemy units, and take ANY friendly unit with him? Then I look at Wraithguard with AP2 flamers.

This is going to become more common than the Aegis line. Why wouldnt anyone take this? Providing you go first you have the means to virtually remove an enemy unit for free.

Then when it comes to the following turn you have a unit, more than likely in cover, with majority T6, a 3+ save and im guessing Stealth/Shrouded from the charachter? And if anyones dumb enough to assault it theres an AP2 wall of death to get through...

Tell u what, if your opponent is more Mechanised lets try those S10 AP1 Wraithcannons instead...

Ill be amazed if this doesnt start popping up allied to any army that can take it. At least you can only do it once.

Yep, if there is no restriction on what unit Illic joins, people are going to abuse the backside out of this.

[Learn2Eel]

I've been looking at the Exarch Powers and what the Phoenix Lords come with, and found this out for those that missed it;
Asurmen has a 4+ invulnerable save, which can be boosted to a 3+ in a challenge if he doesn't attack (though with a S+1 AP2 master-crafted sword that forces Leadership or die tests for each unsaved wound, you may not want to). He is nasty as hell and will kill most combat characters before they get to strike.

Jain Zar causes Fear (redundant because of her mask) but - remembering she is WS7 - if she is in a challenge, she and her enemy roll a D6; if she rolls equal to or higher (and she gets +1 for higher WS) the enemy weapon counts as mundane. Poor Daemon Princes.

Karandras, with his Scorpion Claw (so he strikes at S8 AP2 with no unwieldy) can re-roll failed to wounds against the enemy if he succeeds in a D6 roll similar to Jain Zar's ability, and he also always re-rolls failed to hit and to wound rolls against monstrous creatures. Groovy, and with five attacks (two weapons) at I7, he will decimate most characters as well. Bloody hell. Not to mention granting Shrouded and Infiltrate to any unit he wants.

Fuegan is Strength five and his fire pike fires one more shot than normal. Nasty.
Baharroth has a 4+ invulnerable save, plus Hit and Run. Sweet. Cheap as hell with a decent AP3 melee weapon.
Maugan Ra.....oh dear. No-one seems to have picked up on this. His Assault 4 S6 AP5 Rending Pinning weapon? He can fire it twice in the same shooting phase - eight shots! All with Night Vision and Precision Shots on a 5+ I might add. Wow!

One thing is for certain; even though most of them lack invulnerable saves, the Phoenix Lords are nasty. They will seriously rip most combat characters in the game to shreds.

[SeekingOne]

They come with a shuriken cannon now, so it is more like 15 points.
You have to look at it from a Dark Eldar players' perspective; exploding transports for low Toughness (and generally mediocre to low save) Infantry sucks hard. Not having to worry about that for the most part is very, very handy.

How much does a Tau Devilfish cost? The Wave Serpent shoots better (objectively), is harder to destroy, has access to similar upgrades that boost cover saves or provide an invulnerable save, and has a lot more units available to it for transport. Unlike the Devilfish, it also doesn't have to worry about exploding results.


It's so good that you mentioned Dark Eldar perspective :)
A full-MSU venom-spam army was among the most dangerous competitive builds in 5th. Why? Because, while paper-thin, all those transports were fairly cheap, and that made them viable to be used as delivery system for cheap small units. And therefore those units were numerous. That's what made the army efficient, as a whole.

And it's not the only such example BTW, there were many competitive builds based on multiple Rhinos, Razorbacks, Chimeras. This is one of the best practical exples illustrating one fact: as long as the 40k points and army composition system works as it does, with transports less is more in most cases.


Whilst I agree that keeping transports cheap is the best way to go
And so you actually agree with the point I made above :) Now, I really don't want to sound patronizing or anything like that, but I beg you - please by all means do try to look at the second part of your statement with a more critical eye. You're saying:


... the reality is that you pay those points for more than double the mobility of most armies' transports.
Ok, and now pray tell me how exactly does this work as an argument? Effectively, you just point out a (sort of) justification for the design of Eldar transports NOT taking the route that you yourself agree to be optimal. Now, I do agree that there is some justification for that - alas, that doesn't change the fact that the design is still clearly sub-optimal. At least to me it doesn't.

And also, consider one more thing about WS.
6th edition has basically killed the option of carrying assault troops in a transport unless it is "Assault vehicle" or open-topped. So, a WS, being neither of those, is pretty much limited to carrying firepower units. Now, a great irony here is that the mighty speed offered by a WS has always been most useful for getting assault troops into charge range - while firepower units in most situations work perfectly well from standard 'non-fast' transports. Especially considering that even a normal transport can move up to 18" per turn. So that extra cost of WS which, as you put it, we're paying for its speed, in this edition will for the most part be wasted.


Moving 12", firing two guns at full Ballistic Skill and then moving flat out 24" or more is far better than what is available to most other armies,
How exactly do you envision this happening?! I don't see anything that would suggest a Serpent's capability to shoot 2 weapons and move flat out in one and the same turn.


the Serpent Field is very handy.
As a side-note, I don't think the field's shooty profile is really a "gun". I mean, going by the old rules and fluff, I'm pretty sure it is one-use-only - you 'fire' the field off once and then it's no more. If it's not stated this way in the current codex, I bet it will be FAQ'ed this way soon.


Seer Councils (and why isn't this viable exactly?)
Because the basic cost of a warlock is +10 pts to the old one, AND a farseer cannot count on getting Fortune. I strongly doubt that, even if Fortune was primaris, it would be enough to make a squad of T3 dudes with but 4++ save worthwhile with them coming at whopping 3* pt apiece. And with only 50/50 chance of getting Fortune it's just a big "No".



Well what else are you going to compare your monstrous creatures to? Wraithlords are cheap and reliable.
I see your point, but I just can't agree with it, as my experience clearly tells me otherwise. If your vision is based upon similar or greater amount of experience as mine, I see no other way but to agree that our experience is vastly different :)


The bomber is AV11/11/10.
Where did I say it was great? I merely said that there is a precedent for it.
Well, I have to say I'm sorry for letting my irritation spill out in my previous post - but, admittedly, I do hate it when there's an argument thown at me that isn't really an argument. It's the same thing as with WS discussion... I expressed my disappointment with the armour of the new flyers being too weak, as, in my books, it makes them pretty much useless. You tell me "There's a precedent for it". Right... and? What does this precedent have to do with my statement?


The Eldar flyers embody what we've come to expect from the race as a whole; fast as hell (vector dancer), hard-hitting (the firepower on both fliers puts most other fliers in the game to shame), weak as tissue paper
That's a thing called "fluff". In gaming terms, being weak as tissue paper just doesn't work unless you're EITHER dirt cheap and thus numerous OR have some crazy power to compensate. IMHO, new flyers have neither.


Look around. Under vehicle equipment, there is a forcefield that grants a 5+ invulnerable save.
There was a page from preview, with a list of vehicle upgrades with costs. There is no forcefield in it. Besides, the leaked rules don't even say that flyers can take vehicle upgrades.


I've looked at the codex in hand. I've studied every codex in the game in great detail. You can trust me when I say that Eldar are not going to turn out nearly as badly as people think.
Either I didn't make myself clear, or you misunderstood me.
I never ever said a word about this new codex being weak or not playable or even not competitive - not yet at least )) What I do say is that looks poorly designed. Specifically:
- it has poor internal balance
- it has a lot of near-useless units and generally a lot of stuff that looks kind of pointless
- compared to the old 'dex, it has a lot of changes that were completely uncalled for, and many more changes that looked so obvious yet were not done.

Of course it will be playable, perhaps it will even make to top-tier positions in tournaments once some cheesy loop-holes surface up. It won't change the fact that it's poorly designed though.



Ok.....what is so bad about Fire Dragons? ... (snip)
I discussed it at length in this thread and won't re-type it. Basically, yes - meltas or no, 22 pt apiece is overpriced. Besides, you seriously think that replacing a, say, Tank Hunters exarch power option with another power that gives exarch +1S is a sign of good design?!

eldargal said she was impressed overall - save for a few exceptions
Oh, yes, she was impressed for sure. Her multiple posts with strings of asterisks in them, they show quite clearly just how impressed she was, lol


when do I ever insist I am smarter than anyone? Tell me. Show me.
When multiple people express their not-unfounded disappointment, and you instantly rush to tell everyone that they are obviously wrong and all things are in fact bright and cool - that's what it looks to me. Just my personal opinion though, and I didn't mean to insult you anymore than you did me :) Truly sorry if it looked that way.

[eldargal]

Oh, yes, she was impressed for sure. Her multiple posts with strings of asterisks in them, they show quite clearly just how impressed she was, lol
Well, to use purely arbitrary numbers:
40% of the book looks great
40% of the book is undetermined
20% of the book looks bad

This is based only on rumours and not a full perspective of the book. I think it will be a good book, it's just sad that some units look too be laughably underpowered including one of the armies iconic units and my personal favourite.

[daboarder]

I've been looking at the Exarch Powers and what the Phoenix Lords come with, and found this out for those that missed it;
Asurmen has a 4+ invulnerable save, which can be boosted to a 3+ in a challenge if he doesn't attack (though with a S+1 AP2 master-crafted sword that forces Leadership or die tests for each unsaved wound, you may not want to). He is nasty as hell and will kill most combat characters before they get to strike.

Jain Zar causes Fear (redundant because of her mask) but - remembering she is WS7 - if she is in a challenge, she and her enemy roll a D6; if she rolls equal to or higher (and she gets +1 for higher WS) the enemy weapon counts as mundane. Poor Daemon Princes.

Karandras, with his Scorpion Claw (so he strikes at S8 AP2 with no unwieldy) can re-roll failed to wounds against the enemy if he succeeds in a D6 roll similar to Jain Zar's ability, and he also always re-rolls failed to hit and to wound rolls against monstrous creatures. Groovy, and with five attacks (two weapons) at I7, he will decimate most characters as well. Bloody hell. Not to mention granting Shrouded and Infiltrate to any unit he wants.

Fuegan is Strength five and his fire pike fires one more shot than normal. Nasty.
Baharroth has a 4+ invulnerable save, plus Hit and Run. Sweet. Cheap as hell with a decent AP3 melee weapon.
Maugan Ra.....oh dear. No-one seems to have picked up on this. His Assault 4 S6 AP5 Rending Pinning weapon? He can fire it twice in the same shooting phase - eight shots! All with Night Vision and Precision Shots on a 5+ I might add. Wow!

One thing is for certain; even though most of them lack invulnerable saves, the Phoenix Lords are nasty. They will seriously rip most combat characters in the game to shreds.

Where does it say SC's are powerfists without the unwieldly? just curious, as that would be strange, it would also make it completely stupid to take anything else of an exarch, it does seem a little OP.

edit: yeah eal I'd already picked up on Maugan's little scythe (ten points if you get the reference) thats part of the reason I was saying the Pheonix lords are well solid earlier. Seriously those things are squad killers, and they're not even glass cannons either.

[DrLove42]

I think it might just be karandaras, not all exarches

[eris]

Because the basic cost of a warlock is +10 pts to the old one, AND a farseer cannot count on getting Fortune. I strongly doubt that, even if Fortune was primaris, it would be enough to make a squad of T3 dudes with but 4++ save worthwhile with them coming at whopping 3* pt apiece. And with only 50/50 chance of getting Fortune it's just a big "No".

Considering they can get 2+ armour and a 3+ cover (from jink, 2+ when flat out) relatively easily with their Rune of Battle, they may not need fortune nearly as much as they used to. They'd still die to torrent of fire, but you've got ap3 pie plates from prisms to drop on any high RoF units near them. Similarly they can debuff termies to ap3 and then you drop the prism pie on them. A fortune seer would make the council incredibly strong, but i wouldn't call them useless without one.

[SeekingOne]

Where does it say SC's are powerfists without the unwieldly? just curious, as that would be strange, it would also make it completely stupid to take anything else of an exarch, it does seem a little OP.
It says so specifically in the leaked rules. It still may be FAQ'ed later, as it does look a bit odd.

Having said that, it has always been, and will likely be, completely stupid to take anything else on the Exarch anyway, unwieldy or no.

[daboarder]

Eal, where are you reading the invul saves for the pheonixes?

Edit: nevermind, found the entry...ewww

[SeekingOne]

Considering they can get 2+ armour and a 3+ cover (from jink, 2+ when flat out) relatively easily with their Rune of Battle, they may not need fortune nearly as much as they used to. They'd still die to torrent of fire, but you've got ap3 pie plates from prisms to drop on any high RoF units near them. Similarly they can debuff termies to ap3 and then you drop the prism pie on them. A fortune seer would make the council incredibly strong, but i wouldn't call them useless without one.
I was talking about Warlocks on foot. Used that unit a lot in 5th, and with a good deal of success.

Jetbike council's potential is yet to be researched, so I'll withold my opinion for now. Obviously, we at least need to see the new cost of mounting a warlock on a jetbike, right?

[D6Damager]

If these rumors are true then only Illic appears to be broken (but he is still expensive and squishy)

I foresee lots of axe wielding or template weapon wielding wraithuard, snipers, and the same 3 man jetbike squads. Although I thought I saw that the guardian weapon platform can take the starswarm missiles which I am assuming are the flakk AA option? If this is true then its the first troops to have an AA option which means they may see some use even as allies.

Warlocks as ld8 psykers are not going to be reliable as they once they were in providing the new buffs and or enemy debuffs.

Flyers have impressive weapons but are so easily destroyed by the very common Quad gun no one will use them except for funsies.

Wraithknight doesn't seem to be worth the points.

With the new book I think the Eldar's success will be largely dependant on how much terrain is on the table in order to maximize their use of battle focus. This does not bode well for tournament play which usually has sparser tables.

[Caitsidhe]

I take all "leaked rules" and rumors witha grain of salt these days. I'm still reading and digesting these. It is another nail in the coffin of assault (unless you are some sort of hard to kill Monstrous Creature) but then again, assault has so many nails in its coffin now that you would be hard pressed to get another one in. :D

My initial reaction is that Eldar with their version of short range rending seem designed to screw over Terminators, as if Terminator Spam armies have been a problem. :D

[Learn2Eel]

It's so good that you mentioned Dark Eldar perspective :)
A full-MSU venom-spam army was among the most dangerous competitive builds in 5th. Why? Because, while paper-thin, all those transports were fairly cheap, and that made them viable to be used as delivery system for cheap small units. And therefore those units were numerous. That's what made the army efficient, as a whole.

And it's not the only such example BTW, there were many competitive builds based on multiple Rhinos, Razorbacks, Chimeras. This is one of the best practical exples illustrating one fact: as long as the 40k points and army composition system works as it does, with transports less is more in most cases.


And so you actually agree with the point I made above :) Now, I really don't want to sound patronizing or anything like that, but I beg you - please by all means do try to look at the second part of your statement with a more critical eye. You're saying:


Ok, and now pray tell me how exactly does this work as an argument? Effectively, you just point out a (sort of) justification for the design of Eldar transports NOT taking the route that you yourself agree to be optimal. Now, I do agree that there is some justification for that - alas, that doesn't change the fact that the design is still clearly sub-optimal. At least to me it doesn't.

And also, consider one more thing about WS.
6th edition has basically killed the option of carrying assault troops in a transport unless it is "Assault vehicle" or open-topped. So, a WS, being neither of those, is pretty much limited to carrying firepower units. Now, a great irony here is that the mighty speed offered by a WS has always been most useful for getting assault troops into charge range - while firepower units in most situations work perfectly well from standard 'non-fast' transports. Especially considering that even a normal transport can move up to 18" per turn. So that extra cost of WS which, as you put it, we're paying for its speed, in this edition will for the most part be wasted.


How exactly do you envision this happening?! I don't see anything that would suggest a Serpent's capability to shoot 2 weapons and move flat out in one and the same turn.


As a side-note, I don't think the field's shooty profile is really a "gun". I mean, going by the old rules and fluff, I'm pretty sure it is one-use-only - you 'fire' the field off once and then it's no more. If it's not stated this way in the current codex, I bet it will be FAQ'ed this way soon.


Because the basic cost of a warlock is +10 pts to the old one, AND a farseer cannot count on getting Fortune. I strongly doubt that, even if Fortune was primaris, it would be enough to make a squad of T3 dudes with but 4++ save worthwhile with them coming at whopping 3* pt apiece. And with only 50/50 chance of getting Fortune it's just a big "No".



I see your point, but I just can't agree with it, as my experience clearly tells me otherwise. If your vision is based upon similar or greater amount of experience as mine, I see no other way but to agree that our experience is vastly different :)


Well, I have to say I'm sorry for letting my irritation spill out in my previous post - but, admittedly, I do hate it when there's an argument thown at me that isn't really an argument. It's the same thing as with WS discussion... I expressed my disappointment with the armour of the new flyers being too weak, as, in my books, it makes them pretty much useless. You tell me "There's a precedent for it". Right... and? What does this precedent have to do with my statement?


That's a thing called "fluff". In gaming terms, being weak as tissue paper just doesn't work unless you're EITHER dirt cheap and thus numerous OR have some crazy power to compensate. IMHO, new flyers have neither.


There was a page from preview, with a list of vehicle upgrades with costs. There is no forcefield in it. Besides, the leaked rules don't even say that flyers can take vehicle upgrades.


Either I didn't make myself clear, or you misunderstood me.
I never ever said a word about this new codex being weak or not playable or even not competitive - not yet at least )) What I do say is that looks poorly designed. Specifically:
- it has poor internal balance
- it has a lot of near-useless units and generally a lot of stuff that looks kind of pointless
- compared to the old 'dex, it has a lot of changes that were completely uncalled for, and many more changes that looked so obvious yet were not done.

Of course it will be playable, perhaps it will even make to top-tier positions in tournaments once some cheesy loop-holes surface up. It won't change the fact that it's poorly designed though.



I discussed it at length in this thread and won't re-type it. Basically, yes - meltas or no, 22 pt apiece is overpriced. Besides, you seriously think that replacing a, say, Tank Hunters exarch power option with another power that gives exarch +1S is a sign of good design?!

Oh, yes, she was impressed for sure. Her multiple posts with strings of asterisks in them, they show quite clearly just how impressed she was, lol


When multiple people express their not-unfounded disappointment, and you instantly rush to tell everyone that they are obviously wrong and all things are in fact bright and cool - that's what it looks to me. Just my personal opinion though, and I didn't mean to insult you anymore than you did me :) Truly sorry if it looked that way.

I would know because I played an army just like that. I am quite aware of which army lists dominated 5th Edition. Notice anything about them now though? Almost all of them - even the Venom one - don't work anywhere near as well in 6th Edition. It is a by-product of the new vehicle rules, but it is nonetheless worth mentioning. The reality is, if a unit is priced appropriately for its role, then it is a worthwhile addition. Wave Serpents are priced appropriately when one compares them to other such vehicles. Is having expensive transports an issue? It depends on what you need them for. Armies that employed Rhino-rush tend not to have many ways of getting most of their army close to the enemy, and generally being mobile. Eldar, with Jetbikes/Jump Infantry/Jetpack Infantry/Infiltrators/Fast Skimmers/Fleet everywhere don't need as many cheap transports, as an army like Space Marines would for the most part. Hence, a few more expensive ones is not a bad thing, as you don't need to take as many, and they are a lot less likely to concede First Blood - which is another big reason people dropped their Rhinos.

If you look at a Wave Serpent as a transport only, then they obviously won't look that good. I think that cheap transports is optimal, but that doesn't automatically exclude those that aren't. Devilfishes, though expensive, are very popular for a number of reasons. The same is true of Wave Serpents. You might not find value in them, but in a balanced game, like anything else, they have to pay to be superior. And Wave Serpents are superior - they crap all over Rhinos by being able to move 12" and fire two weapons, and then move 24" as a flat out move, they have strong guns to boot, they are AV12/12/10 (which makes a massive difference in a S7 dominated meta), they get 5+ or 4+ Jink saves depending on how far they move, they are much safer to the troops inside, and they have a range of upgrades that can make them laughably more effective in certain ways. I feel you are looking at the Wave Serpent solely as a transport - with its weaponry and durability, it is comparable to a main battle tank from other armies. It doesn't have the outright firepower of a Predator, but it is darn good considering. It is also more durable (better side armour, Jink saves, potential invulnerable saves) and is able to fire on the move without penalty. That it also carries models is an added bonus. I see it less as a transport and more as a unit that fulfills two roles; transport and battle tank, both of which it does pretty well at.

Can a regular transport unload five meltagunners into the enemy deployment zone by turn two, even when taking into account the enemy vehicles would be moving away? Nope. Can a regular transport provide some very decent firepower whilst moving at full speed? Nope. Can a regular transport be darn hard to kill just by moving, with AV12 front and side with boostable Jink saves? Nope. Speed, firepower and durability; each of which the Wave Serpent excels at, comparatively. On a regular board, eighteen inches just doesn't compare to thirty-six - especially when the latter is getting a 4+ cover save and is more well armoured.

Meant to say "or". Sorry.

It isn't one-use-only. If you fire the Serpent Shield, you only lose that "save" for the duration of that turn. Ergo, you still get it in your opponent's phase. At least, that was what I last saw - may have been a mistranslation.

I dunno, I think that the entire squad actually being proper psykers now is very cool. One takes a Primaris for Shrouded. The rest get powers like restore wounds (helpful for friendly monsters), granting Fearless or dropping enemy Leadership to chase them down, giving the entire unit WS5 I6 or doing the reverse for enemies, reducing armour saves to make their attacks nastier, running faster, etc. I think one can make it work, but squad-size and kit out are yet to be seen.

Fair enough. I use monstrous creatures of all kinds extensively, and each of them usually suffers anywhere between two to four wounds per game from massed small arms fire/krak grenades. In that sense, having a monster that is virtually immune to all that (even krak grenades, unless the opponent is lucky) balances out the extra wound. Again, the move away from S8 and more to S7 is helpful here. I've found the new cover rules make up for any lack of an invulnerable save in most cases.

I've seen AV10 fliers work just fine. Dakkajets, Razorwings and the like do pretty well in competitive scenes, because they are cheap. Just because you can't shove them in sight of a quad gun and expect them to live doesn't make them bad. They encourage players to think through their moves with fliers - unlike the Heldrake - because minimising what can shoot you becomes much more important. From where I stand, they are hardly useless. I replied to you because you said "AV10 flyers - WTF". I don't point things out to people because I think they are "wrong". I point things out to people because, in my position, I believe I can help them to make things work. Hence why I don't think AV10 automatically disqualifies a flyer competitively.

In the fluff, Ahriman is the master of Divination. He isn't in the game though. Anything that respects the fluff rules-wise is ok in my books, as long as it is still viable - which I believe the flyers are. The flyers are, compared to others of their kind, pretty appropriately costed. The Tau flyers are considered decent to good, and they only have AV11/10/10. The Eldar ones are cheaper, and have better weaponry. One shoots two S4 AP2 small blasts, strips Fearless and the like from enemies and causes them to run away. The other has the strongest anti-air/tank firepower of any of the 6th Edition codex flyers released so far. To me, there is value there.

Raziel confirmed it, but there is no word on what can take it. It is possible that it is only available to certain vehicles.

You referred to the Fire Dragon example in your original post as a "very worrying sign". You then said it was a poorly designed codex.
So what part of me saying "Eldar are not going to turn out nearly as badly as people think" was inappropriate to this discussion? I was not specifically referring to their "competitiveness". I disagree that it is poorly designed, and again, this is my Tyranid experience coming through; this is an army that is based heavily around your units working together. I understand a lot of players don't like this approach, but if they actually play that way on the table-top and do it well - which I believe they will - then I will feel justified in believing it is well designed. The only unit that seems to be lacking a place is Howling Banshees - the rest are, for the most part, appropriately priced and have a clear role that they can do well - and even then if they are used as a counter or combi-charge unit they will do fine. I don't see a unit that is a glaringly obvious dud like Warp Talons, Mutilators, Pyrovores, Mandrakes, Legion of the Damned and so on. To me, that is an indication that the units are at the very least functional.

That's fair enough, as you are entitled to your opinion. I think they are very much appropriately priced.
As to losing tank hunters, I don't understand how that is poor design. They lost an ability but became a stronger unit elsewhere. It is, to put it simply, a balancing act. Fire Dragons with Tank Hunters for how cheap they were, you will find few that would argue they weren't under-costed then.

She clearly stated both here and on Warseer that she was impressed overall, save for a few glaring examples - mostly Howling Banshees.

Do you see the link in my signature? I am a professed Tactica writer - whether I am a good one or not is for others to decide. My job is not to determine whether a unit is, for example, worthless or worthwhile. My job is to help others get the best value out of their expensive models. Hence why, even in my Tyranid articles, I focus on ways to make units such as Pyrovores and Lictors work. I preface that they may not be as cost-effective as, say, Ymgarl Genestealers or Biovores, but they are nonetheless useful in their own way. Thus, every time I see someone post about a unit and decry it, I try to find what makes them tick and help that person to use them in an effective way - or, rather, to experiment themselves. In my "profession", if you can call it that, saying to "not use a unit - it sucks" and stuff along those lines is effectively a black mark. Hence, even if it leads into an argument, I will try to not so much "sway an opinion", but more help someone to at least use their models in a way that suits them. The reality is, this is an expensive model and most players start out with the models they like. They don't want to see "don't use that unit". They want to see "how to use that unit".

You can believe me when I say I am not trying to imply you are wrong - all of this is conjecture after all.
I apologise as well. I got a bit worked up after I saw that comment - given my background, whenever such an implication is made, it really gets my blood boiling. That is more a character deficiency of mine than anything else.

[Caitsidhe]

Wow? This is a lot of angst for a book we haven't even seen yet. :D

[DrLove42]

Wow? This is a lot of angst for a book we haven't even seen yet. :D

We're Eldar players, we're naturally passionate.

[Learn2Eel]

Where does it say SC's are powerfists without the unwieldly? just curious, as that would be strange, it would also make it completely stupid to take anything else of an exarch, it does seem a little OP.

edit: yeah eal I'd already picked up on Maugan's little scythe (ten points if you get the reference) thats part of the reason I was saying the Pheonix lords are well solid earlier. Seriously those things are squad killers, and they're not even glass cannons either.

Yeah, they are brutal. I think I will be trying each of them out a handful of times when I get the chance.


We're Eldar players, we're naturally passionate.

High Elf players are the same :D

Anyone else thinking Fast Attack choices will be difficult to pick? Shining Spears, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears, etc....all (or most) with great models and cool rules.

[Caitsidhe]

Fair enough. I'm just about done with my read through of the "leaked rules." It will be interesting to see if they hold up. There are several potent combinations and I can see a few tournament competitive builds. It has not, unfortunately, altered the META much, only reinforced entrenched (or semi-mobile) gun lines and further made armor more or less a paper tiger.

*The game is looking more and more like the old Mega-Monster movies from Japan with potent, huge creatures battling each other and zipping about while little forces shoot at them.

[Defenestratus]

It takes a bit of imagination to think about how to use some of these units together. Of any of the "new" things, the only real disappointment is the fliers - and only because they make the nightwing look like a bargain. 160 points with absolutely no defensive abilities whatsoever will see them blown up to the ubquitous aegis line quad gun before they're able to do a damn thing. Taking out the quad gun on turn one will be of paramount importance if you take any of these guys.

The mindshock thing on the bomber is pretty unique - and combined with the one power that lowers leadership by 3, and the sword of asuryan - could make many Eternal Warriors disappear.

As for Banshees, I think they'll be ok. While they're certainly nowhere near the "fastest assault unit in the game" - they definitely have a much better ability to assault after running. This will help but I'm not sure it will alleviate the problem that Eldar have - which is overwatch.

War walkers - boy how conflicted I am:

Pros: Fleet, Scout, Move-shoot-Move, twin linking due to scatter lasers without losing numbers of shots, invulnerable save
Cons: 20 pts more expensive and open topped.

I think that the things that people are complaining about aren't really the important issues. What I'm seeing is the 4th edition codex with some expensive bells and whistles while doing very little to make up for glaring inadequacies in the army. Whether thats on purpose or not is up for discussion but what I'm seeing is an across the board points increase on most units which means LESS models on the board overall in a given game. The bells and whistles we're getting aren't exactly equalizing that problem in my honest opinion.

Sure our Phoenix lords are pretty boss even without invulnerable saves - but at their points cost, good luck in trying to fit them into a list when you have 125 point falcons, 115 point serpents, 240 point eggs on legs and 160 point eggshell fighters... Unless you take guardians (who got more expensive) - we simply aren't going to be able to put enough wounds on the board to really make a difference.

[Learn2Eel]

Given how competitive your meta is, I take that as a good sign.

Banshees can assault after running? Nice.


It takes a bit of imagination to think about how to use some of these units together. Of any of the "new" things, the only real disappointment is the fliers - and only because they make the nightwing look like a bargain. 160 points with absolutely no defensive abilities whatsoever will see them blown up to the ubquitous aegis line quad gun before they're able to do a damn thing. Taking out the quad gun on turn one will be of paramount importance if you take any of these guys.

The mindshock thing on the bomber is pretty unique - and combined with the one power that lowers leadership by 3, and the sword of asuryan - could make many Eternal Warriors disappear.

As for Banshees, I think they'll be ok. While they're certainly nowhere near the "fastest assault unit in the game" - they definitely have a much better ability to assault after running. This will help but I'm not sure it will alleviate the problem that Eldar have - which is overwatch.

War walkers - boy how conflicted I am:

Pros: Fleet, Scout, Move-shoot-Move, twin linking due to scatter lasers without losing numbers of shots, invulnerable save
Cons: 20 pts more expensive and open topped.

I think that the things that people are complaining about aren't really the important issues. What I'm seeing is the 4th edition codex with some expensive bells and whistles while doing very little to make up for glaring inadequacies in the army. Whether thats on purpose or not is up for discussion but what I'm seeing is an across the board points increase on most units which means LESS models on the board overall in a given game. The bells and whistles we're getting aren't exactly equalizing that problem in my honest opinion.

Sure our Phoenix lords are pretty boss even without invulnerable saves - but at their points cost, good luck in trying to fit them into a list when you have 125 point falcons, 115 point serpents, 240 point eggs on legs and 160 point eggshell fighters... Unless you take guardians (who got more expensive) - we simply aren't going to be able to put enough wounds on the board to really make a difference.

That's fair enough. I guess the issue with an elite specialist army will always be "what can I fit in".

[cebalrai]

I like the rumors so far. Bummed there's nothing about the Wave Serpent being an assault transport. That being said I'm glad I invested in dark eldar allies. Incubi are going to be very important to my army...


Thematically I'm happy with assault ramps being more the purview of marines and DE.

[Caitsidhe]

I will say this, Eldar look like they are in the same boat I am (Chaos Space Marines) in that they are going to be a mostly low model count army which has MASSIVE offensive potential but can't take too many punches. In fact, they look like they do a lot of the same things my army does. :) I mean really, I could build a doppleganger of my favorite CSM build with these guys. It would play only slightly different.

[Defenestratus]

I will say this, Eldar look like they are in the same boat I am (Chaos Space Marines) in that they are going to be a mostly low model count army which has MASSIVE offensive potential but can't take too many punches. In fact, they look like they do a lot of the same things my army does. :) I mean really, I could build a doppleganger of my favorite CSM build with these guys. It would play only slightly different.

Except you have ... 3+ armor across the board and at least T4.

Which is huge... unless you've played a T3 army you don't appreciate T4. When I started playing Blood Angels it was almost like an easy button (admittedly not so much anymore)

[eldargal]

Ok so reading over the rules a bit more and making some assumptions:
Note: I started drinking scotch just after the HQ section, be wanred.
HQ:
Avatar is pretty nifty. I missed whether or not it ha EQ, I hope so.
Farseer: IF Ghosthelm does what it does now, still very good. If not, problematic. Giving it the benefit of the doubt.
Autarch: Still not seeing any compelling reason to take one beyonf Wings of Failchew shenanigans.
Spiritseer: Wraithguard as troops, enough said.
Phoenix Lords: Looking fantastic, not giving them all invulnerable saves or the option to buy one is a missed opportunity but not catastrophic.
Illic. Possibly OP. Infiltrate anywhere with a unit of your choice? Banshee deliver system? Lol.
Eldrad: Still Eldrad, only moreso. Bless him.

Harlequins: Need more details re: wargear
Fire Dragons: Still perhaps the greatest anti-armour unit in the game.
Striking Scorpions: Very good, still suffer from the lack of an assault vehicle but less so than Banshees and their wargear and abilities are nice
Howling Banshees: Sigh. Maybe if they do actually have grenades and Acrobatic offers something useful like Furious Charge or the ability to assault out of a vehicle they will be useful. If not, another edition of fail.
Wraithguard/Blades: Very, very impressive. The shooty whatsits are amazing, especially if the AP2 flamer thing is accurate (it may be AP5). Wraithblades offer a durable melee unit that should be able to tank things even if its offensive capacity isn't exceptional.

Dire Avengers: New shuriken is better than old Bladestorm. Units in Wave Serpents to zip about holding objectives and shooting the **** out of things seems viable
Guardians: Hmm. Maybe good depending on heavy weapons. Otherwise average. Extra mobility may help them avoid assaults, 12" range is still too small. Big blobs of Guardians backed with an Avatar will still be powerful.
Jetbikes: Holy hell, turbo boosting, low cover saving not quite rending cheap death machines of deathly death.

Wave Serpent: A bad transport but an excellent main battle tank.

Hemhemhemlock Racetrack: Seems ok
Crimson Hunter: Vector dancing, Bs4/5 4 S8 lance shots on a flyer? Oh god yes. AV10 disappointing but not catastrophic.
Vyper squadron: See above re: turbo boosting, low cover saving, not quite rending cheap death machines of deathly death. Only with bigger guns.
Warp Spiders: Seem solid.
Swooping Hawks: Not so sure about these. May be very useful againt light infantry and vehicles, may not be. I think I need to sit down with the rules then play some games.
Shining Spears: Forgot to read the rules.
Wraithknight: We wants its babies preciouss.
War Walkers: Very fast, much more expensive. Not sure if worth a HS slot compared to others
Support Battery: Meh
Fire Prism: Might be nice with the 24" inch cruising speed. I think there are better HS choices.
Falcon: See above, better HS choices
Wraithlord: More expensive, durable, synergises with other wraith units. Perhas sunergises better with wraith army than other choices
Dark Reapers: Seem better, forgot to read rules properly.

So at this point I think the only really disappointing units are:
Banshees
Support Batteries
Autarchs
Fire Prism
Falcon
Guardians

With a few more being unclear due to me forgetting the rules or lack of knowledge of wargear specifics (assuming they weren't buried somewhere in the wall of text and I missed them.

So on the whole not bad, but disappointing in some ways based on what we know now. Potential for more and less disappointment depending how things go.

Banshees can assault after running, is that confirmed? That's a nice boost, helps get them into combat fast and minimise shooting. Losing a couple to overwatch is less bad. The loss og grenades is still much more of a problem, striking simultaneously is bad.