Eldar Rumour Titbits

[daboarder]

Units that cause Fear are immune to the effects of Fear. This applies to all Daemons and any CSM with the Fear rule.

so they do...oops

still your average chaos line infantry is hurt by fear.

[Warpspider89]

so they do...oops

still your average chaos line infantry is hurt by fear.

No they don't.

[Finnegan]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Rg1zr1Ofrf0/UZ4zxSvTygI/AAAAAAAAAEI/pyv2MhPs4KE/s1600/ImageProxy+(1).jpg

That picture makes the flyer looks actually not bad.

Not nearly as stubby as some of the other pics. I wonder if its been stretched out.

Nope, on pictures from Battle Report it looks the same (= "better") :)

I wonder what are those "alarswarm(?) missiles" (Standard Dark Reapers equipment in their entry).

[daboarder]

No they don't.

sigh ok I'm checking myself. its been a long week at I've been at work 9 hours so far.

[SeekingOne]

So a Wraithknight is 3+, and has no built-in Inv save... meh. Jump-pack sounds interesting - but only if it's built-in. And it won't prevent him from dying to poisoned gaunts in melee anyway.

Wraithguard - also big "meh" at 32 pts per model.

The only way to efficiently use both is to take 2 farseers and just pray that you roll Fortune for at least one of them...

Jetfighters sound rather cool though. I really hope they are AV11 and HP3.

Ranger character - pretty pointless if indeed HQ 140 pts. Seems only useful in Alaitoc-themed armies.

[DrLove42]

Ranger character - pretty pointless if indeed HQ 140 pts. Seems only useful in Alaitoc-themed armies.

It was previously reported he was a upgrade character, not a HQ

[SeekingOne]

It was previously reported he was a upgrade character, not a HQ

The latest bit of info contradicts it (the one that is on page 149 of the thread), and that list looks very believable to me in all other items. And since the list specifically mentions that the guy opens the Pathfinder upgrade for Rangers, it's very doubtful that he's an upgrade char.

He might still prove worthwhile IF pathfinders got some new cheesy special rules :) It's unlikely though. The more info on this new codex slips through, the stronger is the feeling that the author absolutely didn't have any intent to "fix" (as in "improve") the Eldar army in terms of overall power. Most new/rewamped units are mediocre in power, and that fact alone tells a lot.

[eldargal]

Anyone know what GMT (or BST, stupid confusing timezone nonsense...) pre orders usually go up?

[Redemption]

Anyone know what GMT (or BST, stupid confusing timezone nonsense...) pre orders usually go up?
Midnight GMT of the night of Friday upon Saturday I believe.

[Koremu]

3+ save? One more reason (if any were needed) to take Sternguard I guess.

[Nx2]

3+ save? One more reason (if any were needed) to take Sternguard I guess.

Go ahead, but remember that you can't wound T8 with S4, regardless of ap3.

[eris]

Go ahead, but remember that you can't wound T8 with S4, regardless of ap3.

They'd just use the wound on 2+ ammo and rely on failing enough 3+s. Which is quite likely. :|

[eldargal]

Midnight GMT of the night of Friday upon Saturday I believe.
Had a feeling that was it, thanks. Late night for me then.:rolleyes:

I'm not too concerned about a 3+ save on the Wraithknight really, it's still at least T8 with multiple wounds and at the very least it will distract a lot of firepower that would otherwise be aimed at our other, more squidgy army bits. Assuming that is even true, which we don't know yet.


They'd just use the wound on 2+ ammo and rely on failing enough 3+s. Which is quite likely. :|
Get some Banshees up them, problem solved (hopefully, assuming Banshees are fixed)

[eris]

Get some Banshees up them, problem solved (hopefully, assuming Banshees are fixed)

Fingers crossed they are. :)

Problem is Sternguard would usually come in in a pod. So they'll get to poison our unliving wraith construct without and way to prevent it.. maybe ring the wraithknight and force them to be more than 12" away? Kinda hinders deployment and if they have any kind of large blast then that spells trouble.

If we get first turn we can get fortune up, but with no invul and that it looks like it could be hard to get a cover save on these guys (even at just 25% needed) i'm not sure how useful that'll be for counteracting anything better than a missile.

[lattd]

What if theres a rule that says wraith are not effected by poison weapons....

[SeekingOne]

Get some Banshees up them, problem solved (hopefully, assuming Banshees are fixed)

That's how it's going to work for most Eldar armies it seems. Wraithknights kill stuff, and the rest of the army is just busy with removing stuff that has a chance to kill WKs faster than WKs kill it. If the "rest of the army" succeeds in its task, Eldar win :D

[eldargal]

What if theres a rule that says wraith are not effected by poison weapons....
That would be handy, and also make my Dark Eldar be very sad.

Also aren't Hellfire rounds only AP5? So assuming a bare minimum Sternguard squad with drop pod is 160points:
<12" 10 shots, 6.6 hit/5.28 wounds/3.48 unsaved wounds.
12"> 5 shots 3.3 hit/2.64 wounds/1.74 unsaved wounds

That's a decent return on points investment but hardly catastrophic unless they get in rapid fire range and roll very very well. Or unless my maths is off..

[eris]

What if theres a rule that says wraith are not effected by poison weapons....

Like the gargantuan creature rule, of any 'wound on a' only works on a 6? Maybe, but it'd have to be wraithknight only. If you gave it to lords and to guard then the wraith list would probably just crush. :D

[eris]

That would be handy, and also make my Dark Eldar be very sad.

Plenty of s8, ap2 for the knight, the venoms can kill the banshees. ;o

[eldargal]

Plenty of s8, ap2 for the knight, the venoms can kill the banshees. ;o
That's where the 5++ comes in.:p Plus psychic powers.

[eris]

That's where the 5++ comes in.:p Plus psychic powers.

If the 5+ invul is 'always on' then cool. From what I've seen, it sounds like fotunre doesn't need to be rolled for, you can just buy it, so that makes it reliable and gets rid of one of my main worries bout the 'dex. Wasn't there also something about a power that can restore a wound to a model? could be interesting as a support ability for the wraithknight. I guess the problem is that you're then paying 150 odd points to keep the 250-300 point knight up, and is it going to have enough of an impact to offset that 4-500 point investment. it's probably going to be fun finding out either way. ;)

[Redemption]

Or unless my maths is off..
Yes, don't know what you did wrong, but the correct values should be:
<12" 10 shots, 6.6 hit/5.55 wounds/1.85 unsaved wounds
12"> 5 shots 3.3 hit/2.77 wounds/0.92 unsaved wounds

If Fortune works the same, it would be reduced to 0.62 and 0.31 unsaved wounds respectively.

Basically, you're better off with equipping them with plasma or melta. :)

[eldargal]

Well that's even better.:)

[DrLove42]

If he don't have an invuln i can see the Divination table being rolled a few times to get the 4+ Invuln power....

[eldargal]

Well assuming 4chan is accurate it can get a 5++ buying the shimmershield thingamy. I also think people may be underestimating how fast they are, by all accounts they are very speedy so keeping them out of trouble should be feasible even if you give them two weapons and no ++.

[IronZOGZ]

If it's as big as it looks and has a jump pack... holy She Who Thirsts. That thing will be in your face on when it's deployed. People hate my flying Dreadknight but this monster would bring it to a whole new level.

[Defenestratus]

If it's as big as it looks and has a jump pack... holy She Who Thirsts. That thing will be in your face on when it's deployed. People hate my flying Dreadknight but this monster would bring it to a whole new level.

Chances are its only going to have like 3 attacks standing so it's probably not going to be that big of a threat up close... any more so than two WL's would be.

[Mr Mystery]

Chances are its only going to have like 3 attacks standing so it's probably not going to be that big of a threat up close... any more so than two WL's would be.

Thing is, with it's speed, it can pick fights it literally cannot lose. That has appeal all it's own!

[Sonikgav]

I hope those 11th hour rules are spot on.

My planned Army is 3x 10 Wraithguard (2 shooty with maybe the 3rd having Axes), 2x Wraithlords and a Wraithknight. Add in a Runeseer or two, maybe a Flyer if I can squeeze it in and my 1800 point plan is looking pretty Doable.

[D6Damager]

Well assuming 4chan is accurate it can get a 5++ buying the shimmershield thingamy. I also think people may be underestimating how fast they are, by all accounts they are very speedy so keeping them out of trouble should be feasible even if you give them two weapons and no ++.


If they do indeed start at 250 points and then go up. I don't think these things will be as multi-purpose as the wraithlords currently are.

If you give it 2 wraithlances and 2 starcannons then you theoretically should be able to out range and pew pew from your DZ using the jetpack as quick getaway to protect yourself from assaults and deepstrikers or to line up shots. I'm sure you can upgrade it even further to have skyfire for it to be an overpriced AA platform. With the size of this thing good luck on getting a cover save.

If you want this thing to reach CC then you give it the sword and the upgraded invulnerable save and pray you can jump from LOS blocking cover across the table (not likely at most tournament tables) or target saturate with 3 of them. Against a parking lot army like IG or Tau you might get a turn 3 charge off if you survive the incoming fire.

Again, I firmly believe Eldar playstyle is going to largely be determined on whether or not they let Eldar assault from transports. Footslogging t3 assault units is a trap no matter how good their fleet rolls are unless they are dirt cheap which I doubt aspect warriors would ever become due to their gear.

If no assault then tryhards will no doubt grab the axe/shield version of wraithguard (being the most durable version with rumored T6 4++) and try to footslog it with those. But I feel this will still be hard countered by Tau or IG gunline, Daemon flying circus and Chaos heldrake/blastmaster spam.

[Lord Krungharr]

Just so all you Eldar people know, Daemons ARE immune to Fear, as units with Daemonic Instability automatically pass Fear, Morale, and Pinning tests and cannot choose to fail any of those tests. So there!

[legalsmash]

Also relies on the assumption that wraithbone is magnetic....I mean if its a carbon fibre type material....who cares about the little magnet.



I always loved how he wrote Jurassic park to scare people away from genetic engineering...and all he managed to do was inspire an entire generation of scientists.

Dude, that movie made me think of science career, then I encountered algebra, and decided to follow my first plan and get into law. I saw the first one like 8 times in theatre. My childhood relived. thank you.


but if the magnagrapple is an applied external magnetic field (it must be) then any diamagnetism in the wraithbone would act to oppose the field.

As to phsyics problems in 40K

I've always found it ironic that Maces in 40k and fantasy typically having a lower AP....despite the fact that maces are designed to transmit impact fore through armour directly onto the poor fool inside.

I've always tried to take the science of 40K with a truckload of salt... the way that they went about statting the mace was kind of... annoying. It should be able to do more than it is, IMHO. I'd rather have unwieldy there than with an axe, honestly, as it makes half my space wolf centric frost weapons suck.


Had a feeling that was it, thanks. Late night for me then.:rolleyes:

I'm not too concerned about a 3+ save on the Wraithknight really, it's still at least T8 with multiple wounds and at the very least it will distract a lot of firepower that would otherwise be aimed at our other, more squidgy army bits. Assuming that is even true, which we don't know yet.


Get some Banshees up them, problem solved (hopefully, assuming Banshees are fixed)

I would be surprised if they manage to make them able to do what they were supposed to do, kill power armor and terminators reliably, again.


That would be handy, and also make my Dark Eldar be very sad.

Also aren't Hellfire rounds only AP5? So assuming a bare minimum Sternguard squad with drop pod is 160points:
<12" 10 shots, 6.6 hit/5.28 wounds/3.48 unsaved wounds.
12"> 5 shots 3.3 hit/2.64 wounds/1.74 unsaved wounds

That's a decent return on points investment but hardly catastrophic unless they get in rapid fire range and roll very very well. Or unless my maths is off..

But the dark eldar like being sad, no?

[Bitrider]

Reposting from 4chan. Take all this with a grain of salt....

if you select a runeseer as HQ, they become troops

.'

While holding my salt shaker, this is great!

[DrLove42]

I thinkt he face that a Spiritseer HQ allows wraithguard as troops is all but confirmed already....

[deaddice]

I am more curios as to what else a spirit seer does?

Do they get psychic powers? are they particularly good in combat ? or as they support only time will tell.

[Redemption]

I am more curios as to what else a spirit seer does?

Do they get psychic powers? are they particularly good in combat ? or as they support only time will tell.
I believe the rumours said he's a Psyker (although probably less powerful than a Farseer), and he can mark an enemy unit and all Wraith units get to re-roll 1's to hit against that marked unit.

Probably the replacement of Wraithsight - they don't get a penalty if they don't have a pet spiritseer, but instead gain a bonus if they have one.

[Finnegan]

...and the Wraithseer from FW as second HQ choice... :cool:

But I still hope there will be also cool options for other builds, I like my mechdar... :(

[DrLove42]

There does seem a big push towards Wraith armies.

Which is kinda annoying for me cos i used to do that and be fairly unique....now its going to be good, but everyone will be doing it

[Cyaneye]

It's kind of odd watching people complain about the wraithknight having "only" a 3+.

You do realize this thing has the stats of a tyranid gargantuan Scythed Hierodule for 500 points less, right?

[eldargal]

With the size of this thing good luck on getting a cover save.
Area Terrain and LOS blocking terrain.


I would be surprised if they manage to make them able to do what they were supposed to do, kill power armor and terminators reliably, again.

But the dark eldar like being sad, no?
It wouldn't be that hard and no, they like other people to be in abject torment.

There does seem a big push towards Wraith armies.

Which is kinda annoying for me cos i used to do that and be fairly unique....now its going to be good, but everyone will be doing it
Not really, it's just the model release is dominated by wraith things so it seems that way. We have very little info on the rules changes to other units which doesn't help, probably 'cos the WD is focusing on the new toys, understandably enough.

[IronZOGZ]

It seems like the Wraith is mostly being hyped because Iyanden is being released with the Codex. When (not if!) the other Craftworld books come out, we'll see more diversity. Bring on Ulthwe!

[Eldar_Atog]

There does seem a big push towards Wraith armies.

Which is kinda annoying for me cos i used to do that and be fairly unique....now its going to be good, but everyone will be doing it

Yeah, for the next few months, Eldar will be the bandwagon army. Just think though... after a couple of months, ebay will be flush with Eldar models :)

Nah, walk up to the shop, "What up? I got a big Wraith Knight!"
I'm so pumped about some crap from the ebay shop
Flock on the base it's so crappy
That orc's like "Damn! Thats a weird *** pansy!"

Rollin' in, hella deep, headin' to the table
Painted all in pink, 'cept it's bases, those are green
Wrapped in a sabol bag, marines standin' next to me
Probably should have soaked this... looks like M Ward's books..
(Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese.......)

I'll spare everyone the rest of the song :)

[Tyrendian]

.
.
.

I'll spare everyone the rest of the song :)

THANKS! what do we owe you for that? ;)

[Caldera02]

Wraithknight can get cover saves easily. Toe in forest? Cover save! only problem there is of course Tau.

I am very interested in the wraith army, but like Eldargal said, we still need to see the rest of the Dex because there very well could be better units that we just haven't seen yet. Can't wait till it comes out!!!

[Eldar_Atog]

THANKS! what do we owe you for that? ;)

Just vote for me when my name comes up for the Nobel Peace Prize :)

[D6Damager]

I wonder if the psyker in the flyer will be affected by the Daemons Warpstorm table result of LD test or destroy and replace with a herald....

[IronZOGZ]

Yeah I'm curious to see how they make a vehicle into a psyker - give it a leadership? Loses hullpoints when it Perils? Is there any precedent for that?

[eris]

Yeah I'm curious to see how they make a vehicle into a psyker - give it a leadership? Loses hullpoints when it Perils? Is there any precedent for that?

In 5th, the Blood Angels LIbrarian Dreadnought took a glancing hit when it suffered perils. I don't think that's changed.

[tierdar]

Furioso Dreadnought

[Kyban]

All the GK vehicles.

[Eldar_Atog]

Waiting patiently for the White Dwarf preview today... Well, maybe not patiently :)

[Iyandagar]

Anyone wanting to snag 10 Dire Avengers last minute dot com are now bang outta luck.... No longer available. Whod'a thunk it.

Yeah I am pretty impatiently awaiting this months White Dwarf too, sometimes the digi version pops up early...

[legalsmash]

I'm not all that worried about bandwagoners, there's a guy at my club who's main and only army is eldar, and he beats the unobtanium out of all comers. He, as a matter of fact, got me into the eldar army a few years ago. His advice to me was always that the army is like a rapier, not a broadsword, or a machine gun. and finesse is key. I think you will get a lot of folk who get the army book, some new models and try to hammersmash some face with the knight or the wraiths, or (epically hilarious to see) aspect warriors, and get tabled because the army isn't really set up for that. They'll get disgruntled, put their crap on trade/buy/sell, there, free-er eldar for all.

AS for the DA, I am SO glad I had 50-60 already.

[Iyandagar]

Yup I have a crapton of the fluffy helmed fellows, so not at all fussed by the price per piece hike. Eldar were my first army, and remain the army that give me that little warm glow, when I am fielding them.

Still impatiently awaiting White Dwarf....

[IronZOGZ]

There are still boxes of 10 available on Ebay if people move fast:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-40k-Eldar-Dire-Avengers-BNIB-/140983037669?pt=Games_US&hash=item20d33e6ee5

[JMichael]

I have very happy about the WraithKnight being a MC. I feel, other than poison (which I always felt Wraith units should have some defense against-like only on a 6+) a MC is far more survivable than a vehicle.
5 Meltaguns at your Land Raider = poof! Even 2-4 Lascannons can take it out.
5 Meltaguns or 4 lascannons at the Wraithknight with 6 wounds = at best taking down some wounds, but can't kill it in a single round.

[IronZOGZ]

And then your new Runeseer casts the spell that gives him back a wound your opponent tried so hard to remove!

[D6Damager]

There are still boxes of 10 available on Ebay if people move fast:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-40k-Eldar-Dire-Avengers-BNIB-/140983037669?pt=Games_US&hash=item20d33e6ee5

I'm not buying anything except the limited edition fig and psychic powers deck until I read through the codex. For all we know DAs could be sub par to other Troops choices now. In the past I usually ran jetbikes and rangers as troops and am hoping they will still be good choices in the new dex.

[Bitrider]

Waiting patiently for the White Dwarf preview today... Well, maybe not patiently :)

Yep and yeppers!

[bfmusashi]

I wonder if the psyker in the flyer will be affected by the Daemons Warpstorm table result of LD test or destroy and replace with a herald....

I want this, but if the herald replaces a zooming flier it crashes and burns and we all imagine the final moments of the aircraft with the Gremlins music in the background.

[fonkin]

Dire avengers gone from list,
Ditto Shining Spears (not that anyone cares about them). I'm guessing... crimson hunters will be an alt build from teh shining spears box?

[TehMik]

Crimson Hunters are the aspect warriors flying the fighter/interceptor.

[Rex Banner]

When are advanced orders expected to be up?

[Eldar_Atog]

When are advanced orders expected to be up?

Think Saturday.

[JMichael]

When are advanced orders expected to be up?

I live in California and they are often live around 4pm on Friday-today (which is midnight GMT).

[Gwyidion]

need.... spanish... codex... screenshots...

[Iyandagar]

Didn't they have a Shining Spear upgrade pack? I believe I have a handful of those chaps somewhere.

[bfmusashi]

need.... spanish... codex... screenshots...

So we can marvel at their sexier naming conventions again?

[Gwyidion]

Right!?

What is it - Halcones Cazadores?

[deinol]

Dire avengers gone from list,
Ditto Shining Spears (not that anyone cares about them). I'm guessing... crimson hunters will be an alt build from teh shining spears box?

Shinning Spears are still in bitz section. I would care if a plastic multi-part rider came out.

[Eldar_Atog]

So to kill a little time while we wait on the next rumor, what does everyone think will be the least used Eldar unit after the new codex comes out?

My money is on the Striking Scorpions. It used to be a major arguement about whether Banshees or Scorpions were better... now they just sit on the shelf. Banshees are better against high save targets and Harlequins have the same number of attacks and do better in terrain

[gresha]

So to kill a little time while we wait on the next rumor, what does everyone think will be the least used Eldar unit after the new codex comes out?

My money is on the Striking Scorpions. It used to be a major arguement about whether Banshees or Scorpions were better... now they just sit on the shelf. Banshees are better against high save targets and Harlequins have the same number of attacks and do better in terrain

Scorpions are my favorite. I hope they're not useless. My money is going to be on Swooping Hawks. It's going to take a lot to turn them around and give them a solid purpose and I think they will still be over cost for that purpose imo. If we're going Characters I'm going to say Prince Yriel.

[Kyban]

Scorpions are my favorite. I hope they're not useless. My money is going to be on Swooping Hawks. It's going to take a lot to turn them around and give them a solid purpose and I think they will still be over cost for that purpose imo. If we're going Characters I'm going to say Prince Yriel.
With the Iyanden supplement? He'll probably get the limelight.

[JMichael]

So to kill a little time while we wait on the next rumor, what does everyone think will be the least used Eldar unit after the new codex comes out?

My money is on the Striking Scorpions. It used to be a major argument about whether Banshees or Scorpions were better... now they just sit on the shelf. Banshees are better against high save targets and Harlequins have the same number of attacks and do better in terrain

For me, what killed the Banshees and the Scorpions was no more assaulting from Outflank/reserves or our vehicles. So a Scorpion Exarch ability that allows assaulting from reserves (or even after infiltrating) and a Banshee Exarch ability that allows assaulting from a vehicle would be a quick fix!

LIkewise, a Swooping Hawk Exarch ability that allowed to intercept Flyers would really help them be viable again.

[IronZOGZ]

Unless something amazing happens, I'm actually going to vote Shining Spears. If they aren't a troop choice, cut your loses and just take a DE contingent for Reavers. Shining Spears are more expensive and less valuable versions of the troop Jetbike. Always have been.

[DarkLink]

It's kind of odd watching people complain about the wraithknight having "only" a 3+.


Don't know why anyone thinks a 2+ is a problem on a T8 model, either. The only stuff that can reliably wound it is pretty much AP1/2 anyways, meltaguns, lascannons, lances, railguns, etc.

[Defenestratus]

Don't know why anyone thinks a 2+ is a problem on a T8 model, either. The only stuff that can reliably wound it is pretty much AP1/2 anyways, meltaguns, lascannons, lances, railguns, etc.

I think we were looking forward to not having to worry about the ubiquitous missile launcher and battle cannon and thats about it :P

[DrLove42]

Yep the 3+ not 2+ is a big difference as Everyone rjns missiles.

Ive decided to go to bed. if there are oimited codexes left when i get up,.its meant to be. if not....ill settle for a normal codex

[Grey Mage]

It's kind of odd watching people complain about the wraithknight having "only" a 3+.

You do realize this thing has the stats of a tyranid gargantuan Scythed Hierodule for 500 points less, right?
Being a Gargantuan Creature has alot of bonuses that the Wraithknight wont get, also... its only about 100pts less- the new scythed heirodule came in at about 500pts total the last time they updated it.



Unless something amazing happens, I'm actually going to vote Shining Spears. If they aren't a troop choice, cut your loses and just take a DE contingent for Reavers. Shining Spears are more expensive and less valuable versions of the troop Jetbike. Always have been.
No... shining spears are 40ks version of heavy cavalry, atleast until the nerf to AP 3. You targetted a high value armored infantry unit... and charged. They were great at wiping 5ish man squads, still are. And with skilled rider and hit n run.... theyve actually gained a bit in 6th edition as long as you arent playing vs TDA.



For me, what killed the Banshees and the Scorpions was no more assaulting from Outflank/reserves or our vehicles. So a Scorpion Exarch ability that allows assaulting from reserves (or even after infiltrating) and a Banshee Exarch ability that allows assaulting from a vehicle would be a quick fix!

LIkewise, a Swooping Hawk Exarch ability that allowed to intercept Flyers would really help them be viable again.
Acrobatics should let the banshees assault out of a waveserpent. Simple ten point upgrade everyone would take.

And... intercept. For the Hawks.

But Scorpions? Scoprions dont really need a whole lot- drop them a point and givem haywire grenades so they dont get slaughtered by a random armored sentinel... maybe count their chainswords as heavy chainswords if you want to keepem the same price.

[Defenestratus]

For anyone wanting to keep an eye on GW's website but don't want to be glued to their site all the time.. if you're using chrome:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/page-monitor/pemhgklkefakciniebenbfclihhmmfcd

It'll set off alarms when you setup monitoring on a site. I've got it setup to check every 3 minutes and send a notification to my devices through google cloud messaging if the page changes in any ways.

[Iyandagar]

White Dwarf has landed.....

[SeekingOne]

So to kill a little time while we wait on the next rumor, what does everyone think will be the least used Eldar unit after the new codex comes out?

I might be alone in this opinion but... I think it would be Banshees.
Thing is, my experience tells me that the most important factor that defines usability of any unit is its durability, while killing power and any other capabilities come second. Durability comes in the form of either toughness/armour, or efficient transports, or (in some cases) tricky special rules - think Harlequins with Veil of Tears in 4th/5th ed. Banshees, simply put, have neither of those 3 - and that doesn't seem likely to change. Of course, theoretically they might get a unique capability to assault out of a Wave Serpent - but that would immediately make them pretty much the only usable melee unit in the codex, which would be grossly unbalanced against other melee units. Very unlikely to happen imho.

[thatdave]

I am sooo glad I held onto my Wraithguard, my first and true Eldar love, when I sold the rest of my Eldar stuff.

[JMichael]

For anyone wanting to keep an eye on GW's website but don't want to be glued to their site all the time.. if you're using chrome:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/page-monitor/pemhgklkefakciniebenbfclihhmmfcd

It'll set off alarms when you setup monitoring on a site. I've got it setup to check every 3 minutes and send a notification to my devices through google cloud messaging if the page changes in any ways.

I use that on the FAQ page too!

[calamitycal]

Wraithknight (heavy support 240 points)
-Strong Profile (S:10 T:8 W:6 AS:3+, Jump-pack
- 2 heavy Phantom lasers (S10 AP 2 instant death on wound rolls of 6)
- Alternative equipment possible - for example close combat weapons with a 5+ invul and blind special rule or a S:6 5" Blast with AP2. with 5+ invul and blind special rule.

Looking at this you're almost going to HAVE to give it the invuln save. Anything that can hurt T8 is almost certainly going to have an AP of 3 or better. So it's armor save is virtually useless. Still T8 is tough to crack, but you're basically flying without a parachute without the invuln. Not that a 5+ is reliable, but still.

A little disappointed that it's a heavy weapon choice. I would have liked to have been able to field a full Wraith Army with Wraith Guard as troops (assuming this can still be done), Wraithlords as Heavies, and Wraithknights as Elites. I feel like the Eldar Heavy Weapon choices were already crowded without the Knight as it is.

[calamitycal]

So to kill a little time while we wait on the next rumor, what does everyone think will be the least used Eldar unit after the new codex comes out?

My money is on the Striking Scorpions. It used to be a major arguement about whether Banshees or Scorpions were better... now they just sit on the shelf. Banshees are better against high save targets and Harlequins have the same number of attacks and do better in terrain

Banshees.

They were already nerfed by their power swords being AP3. Combine that with not being able to reliably get doom (Banshees need doom) and the AP3 of power swords (which makes them TOO focused) and then add them getting shot to pieces by overwatch and I can't seem being all that useful expect in specific cases where you KNOW you will be fighting MEQs. And even then, the lack of reliably having doom and getting hit by overwatch make them an unlikely choice.

Unless they have some rules (furious charge, some kind of counter to overwatch, etc) I think Banshees will pretty much be completely replaced by CC wraithguard.

It's a shame too, because for me Banshees were always the prototypical Eldar Aspect. Loved them in 2nd edition.

[Sonikgav]

Looking at this you're almost going to HAVE to give it the invuln save. Anything that can hurt T8 is almost certainly going to have an AP of 3 or better. So it's armor save is virtually useless. Still T8 is tough to crack, but you're basically flying without a parachute without the invuln. Not that a 5+ is reliable, but still.

A little disappointed that it's a heavy weapon choice. I would have liked to have been able to field a full Wraith Army with Wraith Guard as troops (assuming this can still be done), Wraithlords as Heavies, and Wraithknights as Elites. I feel like the Eldar Heavy Weapon choices were already crowded without the Knight as it is.

Yeah but in most decent sized games how much are you actually gonna be able to run?

Going purely by the rumours (with no Knowledge of new Item upgrades etc) ive estimated that 3x10 Guard, 2 Lords and 1 Knight is roughly 1500 points. Add the HQ's and a few support items and youre already pushing the limit of most 'standard' games.

[calamitycal]

Yeah but in most decent sized games how much are you actually gonna be able to run?

Going purely by the rumours (with no Knowledge of new Item upgrades etc) ive estimated that 3x10 Guard, 2 Lords and 1 Knight is roughly 1500 points. Add the HQ's and a few support items and youre already pushing the limit of most 'standard' games.

That's true. It's not a huge lament, more a comment.

[Sonikgav]

...and the Pre-orders are up!

£30 for 5 Wraithguard! Dammit. (not that i didnt see it coming i guess). At least they havent put the Wraithlords up.

Is it just me, or is this a new style on the boxes too?

[energongoodie]

They're here.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCatsLarge.jsp?catId=cat440160a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

[Iyandagar]

All pre ordered. Now I can head off to bed.

[calamitycal]

They're here.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCatsLarge.jsp?catId=cat440160a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

Nice. Maybe to make up for the slightly over-priced wraithknight, looks like some price drops too. Unless I am mistaken, Vypers and War Walkers used to be 30 bucks a pop. Now 75 for 3, which works out to 25 each.

[calamitycal]

Nice. Maybe to make up for the slightly over-priced wraithknight, looks like some price drops too. Unless I am mistaken, Vypers and War Walkers used to be 30 bucks a pop. Now 75 for 3, which works out to 25 each.

Also, the LE codex is just a dust jacket and a certificate. Doesn't even have extra pages like art or anything? I can't imagine buying that.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I like the boxart change, very modern.

[Sonikgav]

Already picked out about £300 of stuff i want. 6 Boxes of Wraithguard, 2 Lords and a Knight. Throw in a few bits and bobs + the book.

I said id never do this again... lol

[Deadlift]

X 3 boxes of the Wraith dudes, 1 Spirit dude, 1 Farseer and a box of psychic cards. I will download the codex next Sat. Knights cool but I am a small chunker and will get these done 1st

[Cpt Codpiece]

LE book and cards ordered :) nice 1st fathers day present off my little girl :)

[Iyandagar]

Happy Papa bears day to you Codpiece, impeccable taste your girl has in gifts.

[Cpt Codpiece]

Happy Papa bears day to you Codpiece, impeccable taste your girl has in gifts.

cheers :) the little mite has the DA from DV box and a DA battle force and left over bits tucked away for her as she grows :) and a gamesday mini from last year still sealed as she was due on games day but came a few days before :)

[DrLove42]

Ltd book, cards and Ilric ordered

Somerhings missing. Wheres the Iyanden book? Is it coming later or is it digital only?

[darth_papi76]

The rumors have the book coming out on the 7th. That might mean preorders for next week.

[Grey Mage]

Im wondering if the Jetbike/WW things are going to be preorder only, or an all the time box.

Also... WTF on the Saim-hain collection. Its actually bout ten dollars more than if you bought them separately.

[Sonikgav]

Im more curious as to why theyve held off on the Iyanden thing. I wanna see the Book. If i can run my Wraith Army without the Supplement then im guessing its nothing but background and perhaps a few extra bits?

...but its still the same price as the Codex?

Im fully expecting some sort of BS where they get people to buy the Codex, realise they cant run what they want and have to fork out for the Supplement too when the Supplement alone would have been enough.

[Pssyche]

Me, I've ordered the Codex, Psychic Cards, Illic Nightspear, two Spiritseers, three Wraithknights, three Wraithfighter Flyers and four boxes of Wraithguard.

This next week's wait is going to kill me, unless my better half does it first...

[Koremu]

Looking at this you're almost going to HAVE to give it the invuln save. Anything that can hurt T8 is almost certainly going to have an AP of 3 or better. So it's armor save is virtually useless. Still T8 is tough to crack, but you're basically flying without a parachute without the invuln. Not that a 5+ is reliable, but still.

It's still 18 BS4 Krak Missiles to take down one without a save, and it's nowhere near as difficult to get it a Cover Save as it would be if it were a vehicle.

With a 5+ Invuln or Cover Save, that goes up to 27 Krak Missiles, and if you manage to Shroud it (assuming there is a way to do that) as well, it's 54 Kraks...

Frankly I think the way to deal with it is to tarpit it (if it's the shooty version). Or give it someone like Lysander to play with.

[Sonikgav]

I dont know how people can drop that much Cash on boxes of stuff they dont even know if they can use yet.

If the WraithKnight is as expensive as they say, how can you run 3, as well as 2 units of Wraithguard, 3 Flyers and all the rest?

I always get the book and plan out a list first. Learned that lesson a long time ago. My Shelves are full of Dusty models. Might have to start selling soon.

[Defenestratus]

I just don't get the "I gotta have it now" mentality.

These things aren't limited-run models. In 4 years, I'll be able to order these models just like you did just now.

Personally I'm waiting to see if any of these things are actually worth taking. I really wanted to get a WK, but serisouly, I might just use my Revenant model instead "count as" my WK.

[calamitycal]

I just don't get the "I gotta have it now" mentality.

These things aren't limited-run models. In 4 years, I'll be able to order these models just like you did just now.

Personally I'm waiting to see if any of these things are actually worth taking. I really wanted to get a WK, but serisouly, I might just use my Revenant model instead "count as" my WK.
Same. Buying the codex first. Plus why pay full price when I can get 20% off at nearly any online retailer in about 2-3 weeks?

I'm really surprised at the pre-ordering and even more-so at the buying of that LE codex. It's a dust jacket for $50. I can't imagine feeling good about myself if I dropped the cash for that. Not even about affording it (I could) it's just, I'd rather spend the $50 on something meaningful like another box of Wraithguard. It's a shame, the LE codex really could have been something worth having. I was all set to buy it until I found it out it's not really anything.

[calamitycal]

It's still 18 BS4 Krak Missiles to take down one without a save, and it's nowhere near as difficult to get it a Cover Save as it would be if it were a vehicle.

With a 5+ Invuln or Cover Save, that goes up to 27 Krak Missiles, and if you manage to Shroud it (assuming there is a way to do that) as well, it's 54 Kraks...

Frankly I think the way to deal with it is to tarpit it (if it's the shooty version). Or give it someone like Lysander to play with.
Oh I'm not saying it'll die in the first turn every game! Just saying the 3+ armor save is almost silly. Plus you're using an example of just using krak missiles. I'm guessing it'll draw fire from high str weapons. And yea, that means they aren't shooting at your other units so maybe it'll all work out. Will be interesting to see how effective it is at the points cost compared to other HW options.

[ChaosPhoenix]

PreOrders are up in the german store and there is a codex preview in the german iBook store. I got the stats for Firedragons here:

Fire Dragon WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 5 A 1
Fire Dragon Exarch WS 5 BS 5 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 6 A 2

Wargear:
Heavy Aspect Armor (3+)
Fusion Gun
Melta Bombs

Special Rules:
Ancient Doom
Battle Focus
Fleet

- 5 Dragons 110 points

Options
up to 5 more at 22/model
1 Exarch upgrade 10
Exarch may take Dragon's Breath Flamer for free or Firepike 15pts
Exarch may take up to two of the following exarch powers:
Iron Resolve 5pts
Crushing Blow 10pts
Fast Shot 10pts

May use a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport.

[Sonikgav]

I think the more pertinent worry the WraithKnight has is that without an Inv save, and only a 3+, unless its an eternal warrior its vulnerable to Force Swords. Ok, most are gonna need 6's to wound, but it may only take 1. Not to mention any other weapon that causes Instant Death.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the LE book is not just the sleeve.
the book is gilt edged in black and has the ribbon bookmark also (i assume its a bound bookmark).

obviously i will be buying the non LE dex later for gaming properly :) i know its £90 for two books but TBH i don't care LOL

i am holding off on my models for now, i still have the army mega box from the last eldar release with only the fire dragons i bought half way done LOL

really want a bomber x2 and obviously a knight, but since i was doing iyanden anyway (pre nids) i think the whole wraith force will be tasty :) but will come later.

i honestly dont know how they can justify the dire avenger switch though, that is a truly appalling move by GW, -£3 and 5 dudes bad show.

unless they are working on an uber plastic kit/s for the aspects and just trying to steal as much £ as possible??

[Archon Charybdis]

PreOrders are up in the german store and there is a codex preview in the german iBook store. I got the stats for Firedragons here:

Interesting, I'm not at all surprised to see them go up in points (one of the few things in the old book I'd actually say that of), but it's very cool to see the get an armor boost on top of it. With the Run n Gun and improved armor, they might actually survive a round or two of return fire, and could potentially even foot slog it.

[legalsmash]

So to kill a little time while we wait on the next rumor, what does everyone think will be the least used Eldar unit after the new codex comes out?

My money is on the Striking Scorpions. It used to be a major arguement about whether Banshees or Scorpions were better... now they just sit on the shelf. Banshees are better against high save targets and Harlequins have the same number of attacks and do better in terrain

I can see the spears getting the wash treatment, the changes to glance and pen made the swooping hawks clutch now. I whipped up on a few IG tanks with two squads of six with exarch. they may not be great for the light infantry killing they were meant for buy egads they can rape a tank.


Scorpions are my favorite. I hope they're not useless. My money is going to be on Swooping Hawks. It's going to take a lot to turn them around and give them a solid purpose and I think they will still be over cost for that purpose imo. If we're going Characters I'm going to say Prince Yriel.

I agree of Yriel just because the character is pretty much second fiddle to eldrad and the new kid on the block. That being said, I really REALLY hope its not the pheonix lords.


Unless something amazing happens, I'm actually going to vote Shining Spears. If they aren't a troop choice, cut your loses and just take a DE contingent for Reavers. Shining Spears are more expensive and less valuable versions of the troop Jetbike. Always have been.


White Dwarf has landed.....

I still cant make myself buy the mag after 2005. I got a few more issues in 08-9 but it was just so devoid of content. sad really. I remember issues like 140-150 where they had actual advice on modeling, etc.


Already picked out about £300 of stuff i want. 6 Boxes of Wraithguard, 2 Lords and a Knight. Throw in a few bits and bobs + the book.

I said id never do this again... lol
I been saying that since.... too long ago bro.

Oh I'm not saying it'll die in the first turn every game! Just saying the 3+ armor save is almost silly. Plus you're using an example of just using krak missiles. I'm guessing it'll draw fire from high str weapons. And yea, that means they aren't shooting at your other units so maybe it'll all work out. Will be interesting to see how effective it is at the points cost compared to other HW options.

If that thing can't be buffed and is only a three I wonder if it will see table time.

[deinol]

So if you buy the electronic codex now all you get is a preview? Why bother then? Seems better to wait for the full release.

[Souba]

I think the more pertinent worry the WraithKnight has is that without an Inv save, and only a 3+, unless its an eternal warrior its vulnerable to Force Swords. Ok, most are gonna need 6's to wound, but it may only take 1. Not to mention any other weapon that causes Instant Death.

this is a worry tyranid and daemon players have to play with aswell, why should eldar be the only exception? having toughness 8 is a huge boon allready. considering the base cost and what that thing allready gets its cheap allready (so is the riptide) if you compare it to stuff nids/daemons have to pay for to get on similar stats.

[Demonus]

PreOrders are up in the german store and there is a codex preview in the german iBook store. I got the stats for Firedragons here:

Fire Dragon WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 5 A 1
Fire Dragon Exarch WS 5 BS 5 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 6 A 2

Wargear:
Heavy Aspect Armor (3+)
Fusion Gun
Melta Bombs

Special Rules:
Ancient Doom
Battle Focus
Fleet

- 5 Dragons 110 points

Options
up to 5 more at 22/model
1 Exarch upgrade 10
Exarch may take Dragon's Breath Flamer for free or Firepike 15pts
Exarch may take up to two of the following exarch powers:
Iron Resolve 5pts
Crushing Blow 10pts
Fast Shot 10pts

May use a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport.

wow so 6pts more per model AND you still have to pay to upgrade to an exarch when marines get Sgts for free? Guess people used too many Firedragons?

[deinol]

Is it just me, or does that Vyper squadron actually look like a decent deal?

[Archon Charybdis]

wow so 6pts more per model AND you still have to pay to upgrade to an exarch when marines get Sgts for free? Guess people used too many Firedragons?

And they're still entirely worth taking, especially given they've got a 3+ armor save with that.

[D6Damager]

wow so 6pts more per model AND you still have to pay to upgrade to an exarch when marines get Sgts for free? Guess people used too many Firedragons?

Yup.

Welcome to your new Phil Kelly book! Every unit that was used frequently before is now nerfed so that you need to buy the new stuff (or just stuff that didn't sell well). I expect the same thing to happen to Eldrad, Warwalkers, probably jetbikes too.

[Kamin_Majere]

Yeah a 22 point BS4 git with a 3+ save toting a melta weapon 22 points is still an amazing deal for them. Plus who needs an exarch with fire dragons its not like that 3in of extra melta range was going to make a difference most of the time


Is it just me, or does that Vyper squadron actually look like a decent deal?

Yeah the bike squad and vyper squad are both really good deal IMO. The bikes have only increase about $1.30 since i last bought them like a decade or more ago, and the vypers are the exact same price (24.99 vs 25.00) The wraight guard are also a good deal being 10 dollars each (and in crease of like a dollar 8.99 a blister to 10.00 in multi part plastic)

The avengers are the biggest deal because they literally halved the box size while only shaving like 5 dollars off the cost... in no universe are dire avengers worth 7 dollars each (GW prices blow my mind at times)

[SeekingOne]

I got the stats for Firedragons here:
- 5 Dragons 110 points

Options
up to 5 more at 22/model

1 Exarch upgrade 10
Exarch may take Dragon's Breath Flamer for free or Firepike 15pts
Exarch may take up to two of the following exarch powers:
Iron Resolve 5pts
Crushing Blow 10pts
Fast Shot 10pts

May use a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport.

OMG...

Well, all of a sudden we have a whole new contender for "the least used aspect" title.
There's no way in hell that a basic footslogging model with T3 and 3+ can be viable at 22 pts, just as simple as that. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Heh, and I just completed my pre-order of LE codex and a Wraithknight box. Should've visited this thread before doing that. Will have to send a cancellation e-mail now... It's not that I suddenly lost all love of the Eldar - such things don't go away that easily, lol. But that Fire Dragons preview entry has put a huge question mark over playability of the codex as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that a single unit entry can break the whole codex. Rather, it's a thought along the lines of "where there's one such crazy entry, there can be many more like that". So now I'm not buying anything before I get to see it all with my own eyes.

EDIT:
Oh, and they already publish a FAQ with corrections to the new dex. And Shadow Weaver is now 1-shot small blast. LOL.

[Kamin_Majere]

They have errata'ed a book not even out yet? Is it on the shrine of knowledge page?

EDIT:
Never mind just found it... wth
How... i mean... why...

Well unless monofilament is somehow responsible for the death of every enemy model on a roll of 1 or better we now know the least used units in the codex (weapon platforms and night spinners)

[calamitycal]

Yup.

Welcome to your new Phil Kelly book! Every unit that was used frequently before is now nerfed so that you need to buy the new stuff (or just stuff that didn't sell well). I expect the same thing to happen to Eldrad, Warwalkers, probably jetbikes too.
Exactly. That was my worry that I posted in this thread a few days ago. That they'd nerf the popular stuff to make everyone buy wraithguard, wraithknights, fliers, etc. to field competitive armies. Having said that, I'm surprised that the Fire Dragons got hit that hard. Makes me very worried about the rest. I have little doubt that Guardians will take center stage over Dire Avengers as well.

[calamitycal]

They have errata'ed a book not even out yet? Is it on the shrine of knowledge page?

EDIT:
Never mind just found it... wth
How... i mean... why...

Well unless monofilament is somehow responsible for the death of every enemy model on a roll of 1 or better we now know the least used units in the codex (weapon platforms and night spinners)

Well we don't know if the Doomweaver will suffer the same nerf, but yea, I'm guessing a lot of the HW choices will get nerfed a bit to encourage lesser used HW choices and of course the wraithknight. That's standard operating procedure for PK.

[Archon Charybdis]

Well, all of a sudden we have a whole new contender for "the least used aspect" title.
There's no way in hell that a basic footslogging model with T3 and 3+ can be viable at 22 pts, just as simple as that. It's absolutely ridiculous.

So don't footslog them...? Continue doing exactly what you've done with them for 7 years and put them in a Wave Serpent or Falcon. The difference is now if they have to try and hoof it to a subsequent target after they slag whatever they hopped out of the transport for, they just might be able to with being able to run and shoot and having a 3+ armor.


Oh, and they already publish a FAQ with corrections to the new dex. And Shadow Weaver is now 1-shot small blast. LOL.

Exactly like it is now, I'm not sure what your point about it being a small blast is. What we can see is that it has the Monofilament rule, which ostensibly will be the Rending and difficult/dangerous terrain rule the Nightspinner currently has. Assuming the price is still about the same, I call that a big plus.


Well we don't know if the Doomweaver will suffer the same nerf

There's no nerf here, the Shadow Weaver was always small blast. I know nobody ever used them but everybody is trying to pounce on something to ***** about here without even knowing the old stat lines, and it's really obnoxious.

[deinol]

How good the Fire Dragons are depends a lot on how good the Wave Serpents are. Of course, same can be said of most Eldar assault troops.

[privatepeters]

The 3+ on the fire dragons should help a lot. I've lost Sooo many to shrapnel from enemy tanks blowing up lol. Not sure if its worth the 6 point increase.

[Mkvenner]

The 3+ on the fire dragons should help a lot. I've lost Sooo many to shrapnel from enemy tanks blowing up lol. Not sure if its worth the 6 point increase.

You are also paying for Battle Focus, which I have no clue at what it does at the moment. Battle Driven allows people to Run and Shoot.

[privatepeters]

You are also paying for Battle Focus, which I have no clue at what it does at the moment. Battle Driven allows people to Run and Shoot.

Ah good point sir. I'm also curious about the iron resolve exarch power.

[Mkvenner]

Let's hope Banshees are viable. Those girls deserve a little love. Even though those Wraithguard have their own version of beauty that can be found at the tip of their Wraithcannon.

[deaddice]

Hmm no rumours about new phoenix lords i guess?

Also I had a look at the white dwarf for June, the last page has a parting shot for dark eldar ?

[KINGS]

Fun stuff form digital preview:
Vipers BS4!!!
Cristal targeting matrix back as a vehicle upgrade!!!
Aspect warriors have battle focus? No idea what that does but considering DE have power form pain Special Rule I am sure it does something good...
Warp Spiders are now jet pack infantry and have "warp jump generators" but no fleet. Will be interesting to find out exactly how fast this unit is. If plague drones can easily move 20+ inches a turn I am looking forward to what these guys can do...

[eldannardo]

Warp spiders have fleet and hit& run standard. From the June WD

The digi preview bit was cut off...

So move 6", run with re-roll, shoot, then move 2D6" with re-roll

People gonna hate..

[Lost Vyper]

Ordered Illy (whatshisname), cards, LE codex and one Wraithknight, 192€...meh, now we play more of the waiting game...Vypers BS4 = nice!, Imagine a world, where War Walkers got that too and didn´t get nerfed with any of twin-linking bull....ahh....oh, and a prize drop :), uups, i woke up, damn it!

EDIT: On the GW page, the Windrider Jetbike squad is still on the TROOP-section and Illic is on the HQ...hmm..didn´t he supposed to be an upgrade?

[DarkLink]

wow so 6pts more per model AND you still have to pay to upgrade to an exarch when marines get Sgts for free? Guess people used too many Firedragons?

I don't think any Space Marines get free Sgts. Just because they're included in the basic unit doesn't mean they don't still pay for them. Except Grey Knights:D.


OMG...

Well, all of a sudden we have a whole new contender for "the least used aspect" title.

I seriously doubt that any unit that can take all-meltas and a transport for a reasonable price will ever be 'least used'. Even more expensive, Fire Dragons are still good.

[Learn2Eel]

Ordered Illy (whatshisname), cards, LE codex and one Wraithknight, 192€...meh, now we play more of the waiting game...Vypers BS4 = nice!, Imagine a world, where War Walkers got that too and didn´t get nerfed with any of twin-linking bull....ahh....oh, and a prize drop :), uups, i woke up, damn it!

EDIT: On the GW page, the Windrider Jetbike squad is still on the TROOP-section and Illic is on the HQ...hmm..didn´t he supposed to be an upgrade?

Which probably means that leak from 4chan was accurate (regarding Illic and co)...

On Fire Dragons, they were perhaps a bit too cheap before - they were used extensively for a reason, after all. Bumping their price up and giving them a 3+ armour save as well as the ability to run, shoot and run - especially when one considers they carry meltas - is pretty worthwhile in my opinion. If their transport options get cheaper, you won't even notice the difference.

[SeekingOne]

For some reason I thought Shadow weaver was large blast. Confused it with Nightspinner perhaps... anyway, my mistake. and I stand corrected.


I seriously doubt that any unit that can take all-meltas and a transport for a reasonable price will ever be 'least used'. Even more expensive, Fire Dragons are still good.

The issue of 22-point Dragons is not even worth debating, really.

With the old codex, 5-man serpent-borne suicide squads of dragons were balancing on the point of being barely useful. In the new-era footslogging armies they had no place at all. They were still, from the very general ppoint of view, decent for their points, and that was all. There was no real reason whatsoever to give them such a huge hit. And no, armour upgrade from 4+ to 3+ is not even remotely close to being worth +6 pt per model. And neither is that supposed "shoot after run" thing.

Simply put, you don't need to take all-meltas in a squad. And no, 22 pts per T3 guy on foot is nowhere near "reasonable", melta or no. And transport is not relevant here.

Come on, 220 pts for a bare-bones foot-slogging squad of 10 T3 guys. It's the cost of 10-strong squad of Blood Angels assault marines with power fist-toting sergeant and 2 meltaguns. And they are full-weight marines, and they have jump packs for Isha's sake!

Consider this example. A few years ago (in the 4th edition wave of codices I think) a typical cost of a jump-pack marine was 22 points. Almost noone ever used them, except in very extravagant or heavily themed armies. It was so mostly for one simple reason: it's just crazy inefficient to pay 22 pts for guy with the same durability as that of a basic space marine that costs 1.5 times less. It just doesn't work on the tabletop, unless the game is played with no tactical thought involved, just to kill some free time pushing some painted models over table while sipping beer.
During that time the now-obsolete Eldar codex was released, and Warp Spiders, quite expectedly, also were priced at 22 pts, also to expand the ranks of models that are barely used due to being overpriced.

After that several marine codices were redone, and a typical jump-pack marine cost went down to 18 pts. And what do we see now? Hardly anyone still uses them. The only notable exception to that are BAs, and even that is only due to the fact that they can be given cheap FnP (and because they are troops).

I think I mentioned this already in this thread, but I date to re-iterate...
Bottom line is, if there's one thing I learned from playing GW games for 12 years (with the last ~6 years being dedicated to active tournament play), it is that, game mechanics-wise, a unit is made or broken by the balance between its durability and its point cost. With the updated fire dragons this balance is disastrous, and thus I say that this unit is very unlikely to work. Yes of course, you can transport them, you can fortune them (if you're lucky enough to roll that Fortun on now-random table), etc. - but that doesn't change the fact that the whole combo of "unit + transport" or "unit + fortuneseer" most likely will still be grossly overpriced.

As you may notice I say "most likely will" instead of just "will" because, obviously, it yet remains to be seen. But it's enough to make "alarm level" jump up by several points.

[Kamin_Majere]

I'm still wondering about why they are still armed with Fusion Guns... if they are just melta guns why not call them that. I wonder on top of the 3+ save if fusion guns didnt become armor bane or something instead of just melta.

But I still think a model toting a melta gun is fairly priced at 22 points, but i dont play in tournaments so points to effectiveness ratios are meh to me on the best of days

[SeekingOne]

But I still think a model toting a melta gun is fairly priced at 22 points, but i dont play in tournaments so points to effectiveness ratios are meh to me on the best of days

You see, that's precisely the point of the issue. It is the total cost AND the total durability of a squad that matters. And thus there's a huge difference between the cost of one guy in a squad that is upgraded to carry a meltagun, and the cost of a basic squad member, no matter what he's armed with.

For example, if we could take two Fire Dragons and, as a form of upgrade, mix them into a squad of Dire Avengers - I would be perfectly willing to pay 22 or even 25 pts for each of them. That's because on one hand this upgrade would raise the DAs flexibility to a whole new level, and on the other hand the total cost of the squad would increase only by some 26 pts which is quite affordable. But when a FD is a basic guy in a squad, it just doesn't work the same way. Simply put, having a full squad of 10 guys all armed with meltas is pointless - vs vehicles it's overkill, and vs infantry it's just simply pointless due to low rate of fire and cover saves. Thus a whole unit of meltas isn't worth 220 pts - not because melta isn't good, but because you don't need so many of them in 1 squad. And if you keep using them as cheap one-shot weapons, it's a poor option either because 5 guys are 110 pts and it is not "cheap" anymore

You can look at it this way: regular armies, like marines, deal with enemy armour by mixing in a few meltas in each squad. And those meltas are cheap because you only take a few and the cost of each squad increases only by a small margin. Eldar, due to that extravagant 'specialisation' of aspects, are not allowed to do that. So, with the now-obsolete codex, what most people were doing was effectively the same "mixing in" a few meltas but on the army level rather than squad level. And it was much more costly overall, because you had to take whole extra units and extra transports for them. And it still worked precisely for the reason of base FD model being cheap. With the hugely increased cost it's unlikely to work any longer, and if that would indeed be the case, then Dragons are destined to gather dust on shelves.

[Sonikgav]

I'm still wondering about why they are still armed with Fusion Guns... if they are just melta guns why not call them that. I wonder on top of the 3+ save if fusion guns didnt become armor bane or something instead of just melta.

But I still think a model toting a melta gun is fairly priced at 22 points, but i dont play in tournaments so points to effectiveness ratios are meh to me on the best of days

Its just a race difference I think. Its still just a Meltagun.

Tbh a Marine with a Melta is 20 points? Sure theyre -1T but the Battle Focus, plus the fact the entire squad is armed that way id probably say theyre more balanced this way. Dragons+Transport may be an actual decision rather than an auto pick in every Eldar list ive ever played. Also take into account potential point drops for Transports and you may not even notice the difference.

I like how people are already declaring the book dead because of the 1st negative (and its really just a rebalance) they have heard.

In regards to the Dire Avengers. Im guessing the other aspects will be coming in 5's so thats the excuse. GW are basically treating them the same as Immortals.

[eldargal]

I just don't get the "I gotta have it now" mentality.

These things aren't limited-run models. In 4 years, I'll be able to order these models just like you did just now.

Personally I'm waiting to see if any of these things are actually worth taking. I really wanted to get a WK, but serisouly, I might just use my Revenant model instead "count as" my WK.
It's not going to cost anymore now than later and I've been waiting ages for new plastic eldar to paint.

wow so 6pts more per model AND you still have to pay to upgrade to an exarch when marines get Sgts for free? Guess people used too many Firedragons?
Or it is just a reaction to the fact they were undercosted before. Which they were.



The issue of 22-point Dragons is not even worth debating, really.
Correct, they were worth it before and they are worth it still. If you have difficulty keeping T3 3+ models alive then perhaps eldar aren't the army for you.

I bought:
LE Codex
Psychic Cards
Farseer
Spiritseer
Illic Wossname
2 Wraithknights
4 Wraithguard boxes
4 Flyers

[Kamin_Majere]

@ SeekingOne
Oh I understand the math I simply dont see it as a huge problem.

First very few people take 10 strong units of dragons... as you said they are so far beyond over kill its pointless, and while they eat through any troop in the game they have a low rate of fire so will tend to get swamped and killed off in combat.

Mostly people take the 5 dragon "suicide" squad and stick it in a fast transport like a serpent or firestorm or falcon so it can get to a point and nuke a tank which usually will cost more than the squad does and then the tank is used the rest of the game to actually kill stuff. and for the most used version of dragons the total cost only went up like 30 points. They were already beyond to cheap as they were, I didn't expect to hit 22 points but I did expect them to be 20 points each in this book. But even so at 110 for the squad it will still more than likely kill anything short of a land raider in a single volley (and has a really good chance to kill a land raider) so 110 points or 80 points they still accomplish their job efficiently and relatively cheaply.

With the costs of so many things being reduced in the book (assuming the wraith guard, reaper, and spider points are fact) you will still make up the points difference and not even notice it

@Sonikgav
True, but Phil has said that the Dragons will be the best tank hunting unit in the game, so about the only thing i can think of better than a squad full of melta guns is a squad full of S8 AP1 Armor Bane weapons lol

[eldargal]

Phil Kelly also said Banshees are one of the fiercest CC units in the game now, here's hoping...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

LE Codex
Psychic Cards
Farseer
Spiritseer
Illic Wossname
2 Wraithknights
4 Wraithguard boxes
4 Flyers

Yum yum, Illic Nightspear is sexy.

[eldargal]

If it's not been said, Shuriken weapons now have rending. Well, it's called Bladestorm, 6s auto-wound at AP2.

[Kamin_Majere]

Phil Kelly also said Banshees are one of the fiercest CC units in the game now, here's hoping...

True, though in banshees defense they are still pretty good... assuming you can actually get a full squad into combat / you arent attacking terminators / and there arent any high rate of fire or flamers during over watch lol

So they are the fiercest aspect like 3% of the time i guess

[DarkLink]

The issue of 22-point Dragons is not even worth debating, really.

A 22pt meltagun at BS4 on a Grot would still probably be worth it, as long as it had a transport.



With the old codex, 5-man serpent-borne suicide squads of dragons were balancing on the point of being barely useful.

If you were dumb enough to waste them flying up and shooting a Rhino and then losing the squad, sure.



In the new-era footslogging armies they had no place at all.

Quite to the contrary. All the Footdar players I know and read about (and Reecius, who kinda started the whole Footdar thing on the internet in the first place, is a buddy of mine IRL) still take Fire Dragons. Especially with the Aegis Defense Line, the Exarch with BS5 and Tank Hunters is awesome.



Simply put, you don't need to take all-meltas in a squad. And no, 22 pts per T3 guy on foot is nowhere near "reasonable", melta or no. And transport is not relevant here.

Transports are perfectly relevant. But you seem to think that Fire Dragons are only tank hunters. Sure, if you're killing tanks, you don't need more than 3, maybe 4 if you want to be really sure. But Fire Dragons do a lot more than that. Paladins? Fire Dragons. Death Company? Fire Dragons. Command Squad? Fire Dragons. Crisis Suits? Fire Dragons. Monstrous Creatures (anything from a Dreadknight to a Carnifex)? Fire Dragons. Nowhere else in the Eldar codex can you concentrate so much high str high ap shooting, and that's exactly what kills a lot of the nastiest units in the game. Falcons and Bright Lances are too expensive to make up the difference, but a squad or two of Fire Dragons in a Serpent? Golden.

Now, sure, they won't be quite as good a deal. You probably won't see people running 3x10 in Serpents (which I have seen before). But a squad or two will still be pretty standard, even at 22pts per model.



Come on, 220 pts for a bare-bones foot-slogging squad of 10 T3 guys. It's the cost of 10-strong squad of Blood Angels assault marines with power fist-toting sergeant and 2 meltaguns. And they are full-weight marines, and they have jump packs for Isha's sake!

How many times do we have to say that you don't need to footslog them before you listen?



Consider this example. A few years ago (in the 4th edition wave of codices I think) a typical cost of a jump-pack marine was 22 points. Almost noone ever used them, except in very extravagant or heavily themed armies. It was so mostly for one simple reason: it's just crazy inefficient to pay 22 pts for guy with the same durability as that of a basic space marine that costs 1.5 times less. It just doesn't work on the tabletop, unless the game is played with no tactical thought involved, just to kill some free time pushing some painted models over table while sipping beer.

Yeah, but Assault Marines were terrible because they couldn't kill anything. They had bolt pistols and *gasp* three whole attacks on the charge. It didn't matter if they were fast or not, all the opponent had to do was take a real assault unit, say, THSS Terminators, and literally just wait for the Assault Marines to impale themselves on, um, the hammers. Metaphor kinda fell apart there. Whatever, you should get the point.

Fire Dragons, on the other hand, kill **** dead. They're also a nasty threat, which you can use to control your opponent's movement. They're a perfect counter to a number of units that Eldar otherwise struggle to deal with. They fill a definitive niche within the Eldar army, and a very important niche at that. 22pts will balance them out a lot, sure, but they're still absolutely worth taking.

BTW, T3 compared to T4 isn't that big a deal. 3+ armor is pretty good either way.



During that time the now-obsolete Eldar codex was released, and Warp Spiders, quite expectedly, also were priced at 22 pts, also to expand the ranks of models that are barely used due to being overpriced.

If we're going to compare random unrelated units with completely different weapons and stats, hey, Grey Knights are now basically 22pts each (counting Psybolt Ammo), and they're one of the best troops choices in the game. So Fire Dragons should be awesome, too.



After that several marine codices were redone, and a typical jump-pack marine cost went down to 18 pts. And what do we see now? Hardly anyone still uses them. The only notable exception to that are BAs, and even that is only due to the fact that they can be given cheap FnP (and because they are troops).

Because they still suck. BAs use them because the discount on transports makes them suck less than Tactical Marines. If GW ever figures out that their point cost isn't the reason they suck, maybe Assault Marines will get used. One can hope. There is supposed to be a new codex coming out soon.




I think I mentioned this already in this thread, but I date to re-iterate...
Bottom line is, if there's one thing I learned from playing GW games for 12 years (with the last ~6 years being dedicated to active tournament play), it is that, game mechanics-wise, a unit is made or broken by the balance between its durability and its point cost.

You're forgetting offensive output, the role the unit plays, whether or not there are other units that can fill said role, and maneuverability in your little equation. Otherwise, you must think that Plague Marines are like the best unit ever.

[eldargal]

True, though in banshees defense they are still pretty good... assuming you can actually get a full squad into combat / you arent attacking terminators / and there arent any high rate of fire or flamers during over watch lol

So they are the fiercest aspect like 3% of the time i guess
... He says they are one of the fiercest cc unit with the new codex, who gives a **** about how they have done previously.

[SeekingOne]

If you have difficulty keeping T3 3+ models alive then perhaps eldar aren't the army for you.


You don't say! :D I should have thought of it myself, dammit...

Seriously though, you certainly can keep T3 models alive, but at 22 pt apiece the effort is unlikely to pay off.

Anyway, in about 1 year from now the time will show who's right.

[eldargal]

You don't say! :D I should have thought of it myself, dammit...

Seriously though, you certainly can keep T3 models alive, but at 22 pt apiece the effort is unlikely to pay off.

Anyway, in about 1 year from now the time will show who's right.
We don't need to wait a year, I can tell you right now even not knowing what Battle Focus and the exarch powers do I will still be taking squads of 5 FDs in a Wave Serpent to deal with armour and that they will be highly effective. They were obscenely effective before even with a nerfed wave serpent, I would easily make back 5x what I spent on the unit in 2k games.

[shabbadoo]

Yeah, Fire Dragons should totally be, like, 15 points and stuff! Unite, and send a letter to GW to make it so! Who's with me?!

Yes, that is sarcasm. ;)

Wow are there some people poking their heads out of their butts to rant on Fire Dragons. They carry 15 points of wargear alone, and I am pretty sure that power armor, their stats, and their special rules can easily account for the 7 other points, if not double that. People should probably just be thankful that the points cost isn't higher than what it is, because that wouldn't be out of line.

As to them dieing in explosions, try playing Ork Tankbustas with a 6+ save. Talk about dieing in explosions. :p

And shuriken weapons being rending? Well, shuriken cannons are like baby assault cannons now, and shuriken catapults and pistols are now capable of glancing AV 13. Pretty nasty considering how many shots that could be from a full army. :eek:

[Kamin_Majere]

... He says they are one of the fiercest cc unit with the new codex, who gives a **** about how they have done previously.

I hadn't seen that comment from him... which kinda scares me. If they are supposedly that impressive in combat i wonder what is going to be done with scorpions. I mean the 3+ save is nice but verse MEQ the banshees killing so many more than the scorpions generally kept them alive longer i found.

I hope i dont have to feel bad about my 16 point models being able to run rough shod over terminators again (i am one of the few people that like the fact that 2+ armor saves are something really special now)

[eldargal]

Scorpions will be fleet now at least, and have Battle Driven which makes them even more mobile. It shouldn't be hard to make them suitably anti-horde again.

[Pssyche]

I dont know how people can drop that much Cash on boxes of stuff they dont even know if they can use yet.

If the WraithKnight is as expensive as they say, how can you run 3, as well as 2 units of Wraithguard, 3 Flyers and all the rest?

I always get the book and plan out a list first. Learned that lesson a long time ago. My Shelves are full of Dusty models. Might have to start selling soon.


Dead easy.
I've been saving up for a couple of years in anticipation of an Eldar Release.
I play predominantly Apocalypse, so the numbers won't phase me.
Plus I'll now have an Airforce of seven Eldar Flyers, when added to my two Eldar Nightwings and two Eldar Phoenix Bombers.

Oh, and I'm getting a 25% discount for my bulk purchase from my FLGS.

[CosmicSchwung]

I bought:
LE Codex
Psychic Cards
Farseer
Spiritseer
Illic Wossname
2 Wraithknights
4 Wraithguard boxes
4 Flyers

Almost exactly what I went for, except I dropped the limited codex and went for two more boxes of wraithguard. I'm almost grateful there are no new jetbikes given how much I just spent on that lot.

[eldargal]

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250085a_digital.jpg

[SeekingOne]

How many times do we have to say that you don't need to footslog them before you listen?

You almost make it sound like you actually believe that Wave Serpents are unkillable :)

Anyway, a transport costs points. And Eldar transports in particular are heavily overpriced. At least they were, still have to see what they become - but I really doubt their cost will be reduced enough for them to actually stop being overpriced (I know I'm pessimistic; that new "field" thing they get might still prove cool enough though). Anyway, by mounting an overpriced unit into a (potentially) overpriced - or at least expensive - transport you get a combo that is still overpriced.


You're forgetting offensive output, the role the unit plays, whether or not there are other units that can fill said role, and maneuverability in your little equation. Otherwise, you must think that Plague Marines are like the best unit ever.


Offensive output, role - all that stuff comes second. In order to make good use of its offensive or tactical abilities a unit must live long enough to actually use them.

Let me put it this way: the more offensive output a unit has, the higher it is on your opponent's target priority scale. And if the unit's durability does not match its offensive output by a considerable margin, then by fielding such unit you simply provide your opponent with a relatively (as in "in relation to other units in your army") quick and easy way to take out a considerable part of your overall offensive power (which also happens to occupy a considerable chunk of your points limit). That's all there is to it, really.

And there's really little you can do about it - unless you happen to have some tricky way to boost a unit's lacking durability for free or almost for free, in which case you effectively don't have the issue. But mounting a unit in a transport - at least an Eldar transport - is by no means free. On the contrary, it's quite expensive. That's why I say it's irrelevant.

I know it sounds like a gross oversimplification, but it really does work that way - in every game and with every unit, even though you might not notice it in many cases. It is indeed hardly noticeable where the difference in units' effectiveness is small enough to be hidden by randomness and other secondary factors - but it is still there.

EDIT:
Oh, and yes - plague marines are still by far the best Troops choice in CSM codex, and are probably still one of the best Troops units in the whole game.

[Carstens]

And shuriken weapons being rending? Well, shuriken cannons are like baby assault cannons now, and shuriken catapults and pistols are now capable of glancing AV 13. Pretty nasty considering how many shots that could be from a full army. :eek:

Fortunatly they only get rending lite (aka bladestorm) so it only works when wounding, not when rolling to pen. Still fantastic, just not insane. :) (though I guess MC heavy armies would disagree :cool: )

[Grey Mage]

If that guardian cant assault out of that waveserpent Ill eat one of my socks on camera. Seriously.

And yeah... 3+ save on fire dragons? Hell yes! Now they wont die to whirlwind templates and heavy flamers after they come out of their transport. One of hte only units I had in a falcon in my footdar.

I love Warp Spiders... theyre T3 with a 3+, never had a problem keeping them alive as long as an equally sized unit of marines- I also play SWs- so I agree.... shouldnt be an issue here.

Though any news on my beloved spiders? Their page was up, but the text to small for me to read.

[Pssyche]

Assault Wave Serpent with what appears to be a Guardian riding Shotgun!

WOO-HOO!

[lastlostboy]

Though any news on my beloved spiders? Their page was up, but the text to small for me to read.

Actually, yes, sort of.

GW leaked the 1.0 Errata:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250082a_Eldar_v1.0_June13.pdf

So no rending for spiders, it seems.

Also jetpack units, hit and run, battle focus.

[Zachar]

but but but there is only one shadow weaver mentioned, so where did You get the info regarding spiders ??

[Grey Mage]

I note it doesnt say small blast, just blast on that too- maybe the errata is its a large blast?

[murgel]

You can look at it this way: regular armies, like marines, deal with enemy armour by mixing in a few meltas in each squad. And those meltas are cheap because you only take a few and the cost of each squad increases only by a small margin.

I agree, this is the reason why most FD squads you see are small AND an Exarch is only taken for the sole purpose of manning the Aegis gun.
As you said, this is true for tournament gaming. But please remember, 40k is not really a good tournament game as GW stresses again and again it is meant for narrative gaming.
Besides that, I feel people are underestimating the usability of the FD. With the new codex this might change but with the last one they have been my primary shooting unit. Because after they had their go, even Hawks could clean up the leftovers....;)



Eldar, due to that extravagant 'specialisation' of aspects, are not allowed to do that.

This is not completely correct. You could take 2 FGs in a stormguardian squad. Which I have done often. And with the option of up to 20 men in that it worked ok in popping a vehicle and then assaulting the remains.


WARNING!

The German GW site features pictures of the "new" Avengers box, more precisely the sprues in it.
There are only 4 regular DA and one exarch body in this box!:confused:
You can not build a full 10 men squad with 2 boxes but will need 3. :mad:


Talking about price increase.

[Grey Mage]

Wait, so its a new sprue?

[cebalrai]

If that guardian cant assault out of that waveserpent Ill eat one of my socks on camera. Seriously.

And yeah... 3+ save on fire dragons? Hell yes! Now they wont die to whirlwind templates and heavy flamers after they come out of their transport. One of hte only units I had in a falcon in my footdar.

I love Warp Spiders... theyre T3 with a 3+, never had a problem keeping them alive as long as an equally sized unit of marines- I also play SWs- so I agree.... shouldnt be an issue here.

Though any news on my beloved spiders? Their page was up, but the text to small for me to read.


And now Fire Dragons die less from the Land Raiders they explode. I think overall it's a good rule update for them which will hopefully internally balance the codex a bit. I think now they'll feel a little bit less like an Ork suicide squad.


Actually, yes, sort of.

GW leaked the 1.0 Errata:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250082a_Eldar_v1.0_June13.pdf

So no rending for spiders, it seems.

Also jetpack units, hit and run, battle focus.


My gut tells me Spiders will have a combined fire option similar to Shadow Spectres.

Side note: I have a corsair army. Anyone know how new codex rules and updates to wargear will impact them?

[Carstens]

WARNING!

The German GW site features pictures of the "new" Avengers box, more precisely the sprues in it.
There are only 4 regular DA and one exarch body in this box!:confused:
You can not build a full 10 men squad with 2 boxes but will need 3. :mad:


Talking about price increase.

As far as I can count there's 5 normal bodies and 1 exarch body on the sprue. granted only 5 legs, but I think that's always been the case.

[Tyrendian]

As far as I can count there's 5 normal bodies and 1 exarch body on the sprue. granted only 5 legs, but I think that's always been the case.

yup - I don't see anything that would make murgel's post true either... and yes I'm also looking at the german site... so no alarm there...

[SeekingOne]

Thanks murgel, it's so nice to see a non-dismissive responce for a change :)

I agree, this is the reason why most FD squads you see are small AND an Exarch is only taken for the sole purpose of manning the Aegis gun.
Yes, and BTW Dragon Exarch can't have Tank Hunters or Crack Shot power anymore. Just a small cherry on top of the cake, so to speak )


As you said, this is true for tournament gaming. But please remember, 40k is not really a good tournament game as GW stresses again and again it is meant for narrative gaming.
I do remember that. And I'd actually go as far as to suggest that GW games are not meant for gaming at all :D They exist mostly because they give GW customers an illusion that the models they buy have some purpose other than their own desire to have them just because they're cool. That, and the fact that a codex works as a sort of "framework" or a "guideline" for a collection, that pushes a person to buy many more models than (s)he'd ever buy if (s)he were just collecting.

I bet GW would be totally happy if their customers would've built massive collections, amassed huge armies, and gathered together occasionally to show off those collections & armies, and... didn't play at all, moving straight to final stage of bragging over a pint ))



This is not completely correct. You could take 2 FGs in a stormguardian squad. Which I have done often. And with the option of up to 20 men in that it worked ok in popping a vehicle and then assaulting the remains.

Right, and to do that you don't need Fire Dragons, do you? And that is precisely my point. With the Fire Dragons now being considerably less cost-effective, people are likely to start switching to other ways of dealing with armour. Especially since with the new dex you (hopefully) won't need a FD exarch to man the quad gun, as there would be other, more elegant ways of dealing with fliers.

[eldargal]

Thanks murgel, it's so nice to see a non-dismissive responce for a change :)

Yes, and BTW Dragon Exarch can't have Tank Hunters or Crack Shot power anymore. Just a small cherry on top of the cake, so to speak )
We don't know what the new exarch powers and Battle Focus does, and it doesn't matter. Five Fire Dragons without an exarch will still trash virtually any vehicle in the game. If you can't keep them alive long enough to do so then you either had bad luck or you need more practise.

The Dire Avenger sprue has not changed, it makes 5 DA with exarch options.

[SeekingOne]

Five Fire Dragons without an exarch will still trash virtually any vehicle in the game. If you can't keep them alive long enough to do so then you either had bad luck or you need more practise.


Right. You fly your Serpent up to the enemy, Dragons jump out, kill a tank. Next turn, Dragons get killed 'cause there's just 5 of them, and Serpent most likely also gets killed because it's close enough to be assaulted.

So now you've exchanged 5 dragons (110 pts) and a Serpent (~100 pts) for a tank that costs how much...? Unless it's a LR, it's bound to be less than ~210, and considerably so.

Now, I hereby officially state (lol at myself) that if the new codex contains anything that would prove any of the above to be wrong, then I'll be the first to admit that Dragons are still viable. For example, if a Serpent has some rule that makes it impervous to melee assaults... or if a Serpent becomes really cheap, like 80 pts for a bare-bones model with basic gun... something like that would do it.

[eldargal]

The eldar collections are discounted! Prices in GBP:

War walker = 18.50 War Walker Squadron 47.50 save 8
Support Battery 15.50 Vauls Wrath Support Battery 40 save 5.50
Vyper jetbike 18.50 Vyper Squadron 47.50 Save 8

[Tyrendian]

something I as a german note: GW continues their trend of finally adjusting their german translations to the english original! Not that that always sounds better - especially with the Tau there was some weird stuff (Broadsides were called "Koloss" in the previous 'dex - the current "Breitseite" just looks wrong imo, or at least takes some getting used to)... Eldar changes look really good so far though! Except the name they came up with for the Hemlock... "Sumach" sounds just crappy to me... we'll see what name becomes the usual in my gaming group - we usually come up with our own

[Grey Mage]

Similar discounts in the US store... but are these just for the prerelease or are they new box deals forever and ever?

[Learn2Eel]

The eldar collections are discounted! Prices in GBP:

War walker = 18.50 War Walker Squadron 47.50 save 8
Support Battery 15.50 Vauls Wrath Support Battery 40 save 5.50
Vyper jetbike 18.50 Vyper Squadron 47.50 Save 8

Yep. Three War Walkers/Vypers is $130 AUD whereas one is $50 AUD.
They've done the same thing with Space Marine Bikers and Scout Bikers, Chaos Space Marine Bikers and Necron Destroyers. It makes collecting those models a lot easier on the wallet (about $33 AUD savings on each).
Really, given the good price of the Wraithknight given its size - $125 AUD as opposed to the $160 Baneblade - as well as the Riptide and these new discount bundles, I think GW may actually be listening and trying to be a bit more lenient with their pricing. The Wraithguard box at $55 for five larger-than-Terminator-sized models with four ways to kit them out is simply amazing. The Dire Avenger box sucks though.

What really excites me is, given I have a 750 point tournament coming up in a month, just how cheap it is to do a themed Eldar army list. Grab a Spiritseer, two Wraithguard boxes, a Wraithknight and maybe a Wraithlord and you will easily have a 750 point force for about $250 AUD (or$324 with the Wraithlord) which is darn good considering what most other armies cost.

[murgel]

The Dire Avenger sprue has not changed, it makes 5 DA with exarch options.

Official apology:
I have been wrong, there are 5 regular torsi, one exarch torso and 5 legs.


Although I can not see if the old exarch legs are there or if it is all normal legs....

[Tyrendian]

Yep. Three War Walkers/Vypers is $130 AUD whereas one is $50 AUD.
They've done the same thing with Space Marine Bikers and Scout Bikers, Chaos Space Marine Bikers and Necron Destroyers. It makes collecting those models a lot easier on the wallet (about $33 AUD savings on each).
Really, given the good price of the Wraithknight given its size - $125 AUD as opposed to the $160 Baneblade - as well as the Riptide and these new discount bundles, I think GW may actually be listening and trying to be a bit more lenient with their pricing. The Wraithguard box at $55 for five larger-than-Terminator-sized models with four ways to kit them out is simply amazing. The Dire Avenger box sucks though.

What really excites me is, given I have a 750 point tournament coming up in a month, just how cheap it is to do a themed Eldar army list. Grab a Spiritseer, two Wraithguard boxes, a Wraithknight and maybe a Wraithlord and you will easily have a 750 point force for about $250 AUD (or$324 with the Wraithlord) which is darn good considering what most other armies cost.

OK now you've shocked me... I mean I knew aussie prices were higher than most... but 130$ for the Walker/Vyper Squadrons? what the... that's easily 50% more than a simple conversion using the current exchange rate would warrant... Wraithknight and Wraithguard on the other hand are just about spot on using that same exchange rate... what the... do I have to understand GW's logic here?...

[Learn2Eel]

I never noticed that particular disparity myself, to be honest. But I'm used to it lol.

I'm happy to see that a Wraithwing army won't be nearly as expensive as it used to be, plus, it will be with a new codex. Twenty Wraithguard, two Wraithlords, a Wraithknight and a Spiritseer will be the bare minimum for my planned 1500 point army list. If I can still fit in a Wraithseer and even more Wraithguard, all the better.

[legalsmash]

IDK man, even without crackshot or tank hunter, a unit of 10 FD will rain on the parade of the majority of things they run into barring hordes that can absorb it and keep on fighting. I've seen abbadon get his stuff punched in by a unit of 10 FD. It was glorious.

[Tyrendian]

something I just noticed looking through the WD that I can'T recall being mentioned in the thread before: Wraithblades are much more heavily armored (andexplicitly stated to be so) - could this mean they either get a 2+ AS or that Wraithguard are "only" T5 to account for their difference?

€dit: ok forget that - just found their statlines a few pages later... same stats for all of them, nothing out of the ordinary... so another case of GW putting some really cool features on their models and then completely failing to make them relevant... just like the extra thrusters on the Tau fighter compared to the bomber...

[LittleMen]

Apropos of nothing: Hmm, what if all aspect warriors had 3+ saves?

[Chronowraith]

With the old codex, 5-man serpent-borne suicide squads of dragons were balancing on the point of being barely useful. In the new-era footslogging armies they had no place at all. They were still, from the very general ppoint of view, decent for their points, and that was all. There was no real reason whatsoever to give them such a huge hit. And no, armour upgrade from 4+ to 3+ is not even remotely close to being worth +6 pt per model. And neither is that supposed "shoot after run" thing.

The issue with the 5-man suicide squads was never the cost of the 5-man squad but rather the bloated cost of the serpent. Fix the serpent or give us a cheaper transport option and we would have been fine.

As per the points justifying the cost... why not just wait and see the book. What's the point of complaining about this when you don't see it in the context of the entire codex? We don't know any details about anything they possess short of their statline. For all we know they increased the range of the fusion gun to 18" and the firepike is 24"... there are a number of variables at play here that we simply do not see.

[Defenestratus]

I'm laughing at the whinging over FD if only because I totally expected it would be me that did it.

Fact of the matter is that we won't need to rely on FD nearly as much anymore with seemingly BS4 vehicles and mini-me titans stiding around - not to mention a flyer that can lay out 4 Str 8 AP 2 shots @ BS5, 2 of them being lance.

FD's were ridiculously under priced in the first place so I'm not worried about their usefulness going forwards. the 3+ upgrade + battlefocus (whatever it does), and the discount on the exarch makes the price increase worth it.

[Tyrendian]

Apropos of nothing: Hmm, what if all aspect warriors had 3+ saves?

judging from the WD, the answer is no... FD and WS are stated to wear "Heavy Aspect Armour", which only makes sense if there is a normal, i.e. 4+ version of it

[Mr Mystery]

I is use my eyes!!!

Looking at WD, you can make out some stuff from the sample codex pages...

Dark Reapers.... Heavy Aspect Armour (3+) reaper launcher with starswarm missiles (AA I presume), Reaper Rangefinder. Ancient Doom(?) Slow and Purposeful.

Warp Spiders.... Jet Pack Infantry, Heavy Aspect armour, Death Spinner, Warp Jump Generator, Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Fleet, Hit and Run.

Faolchins Wing..... The bearer may run 48"(!) in the shooting phase. Cannot shoot, assault or manifest psychic powers. They do however re-roll cover that turn.

Destructor/Renewer. Destructor is a heavy flamer with Soul Blaze. Renewer? Here injured dude. Have a wound back. Unless you're dead. 18" range!

Conceal/Reveal. Grants Shrouded. Reveal removes stealth and shrouded from the target. Which is nice.

Guide is a primaries power, re-roll shooting misses.

Wraith sight appears to be gone ( and there was much rejoicing). No stat difference between Wraithguard or Blades.

[eldargal]

Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons have all dropped to 3+ save, I wonder if Banshees will? It would add to their resilience somewhat.

[Defenestratus]

Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons have all dropped to 3+ save, I wonder if Banshees will? It would add to their resilience somewhat.

Well they all had 3+ armor before except the FD, which we all thought should have had it in the first place.

Reapers, Spiders, FD, Spears, Scorpions = 3+
Avengers, Banshees, hawks = 4+

Thats how I see it going down.

Also where did you see shurikens getting rending EG? I want to throw that in my Necron buddy's face :P

[KINGS]

True Born + blaster = 27pts
Those units are used all the time. Granted they have a fantastic transport, but lets see what the wave serpent does first.

[darth_papi76]

I wonder if Banshees will be able assault after they run instead of shooting. That would make them quite fast. I think the Fire Dragons are fine. Rumor has it that Vypers are BS4. Hopefully we'll see that across the board for all vehicles. That would make long range anti-tank better and reduce Fire Dragon spam.

[eldargal]

Well they all had 3+ armor before except the FD, which we all thought should have had it in the first place.

Reapers, Spiders, FD, Spears, Scorpions = 3+
Avengers, Banshees, hawks = 4+

Thats how I see it going down.

Also where did you see shurikens getting rending EG? I want to throw that in my Necron buddy's face :P
Ha, it's been so long since I fielded Dark Reapers and Warp Spiders i forgot.:rolleyes:

Shurikens new Bladestorm rending ability as mentioned on Warseer, I think it was in the iPad preview.

[Vdor103]

Few things I noticed from the WD and the iBooks 'sample' pages:

- BS4 Vypers + new bundle deal on GW = another item in the cart (points pending)
- Warp Spider Exarch cant take an additional Death spinner anymore (instead its twin linked)
- Fortune isn't selected, but rolled!
- 3 pictures of guardians with both a heavy weapons platform AND a support weapon (could it be that a support weapon is a Guardian upgrade?)
- why do I have a feeling that all the old Wraithguard models with Wraithcannons are about to be obsolete (D-scythes will be the shooty weapon of choice)
- I really need to revisit my warlocks and farseers with the intricate patterns/symbols on the robes!

[Grey Mage]

Meh, wraithscythes are just a different nob on the end- its about 15-20 minutes of converting and painting to bring them back up to speed...

And with all the sexy that is the CC versions, their will be plenty of bits to go around.

[Defenestratus]

- Warp Spider Exarch cant take an additional Death spinner anymore (instead its twin linked)

This doesn't bode well for war walkers... gulp. I may be out $100 on a bet.

[Freakeh]

So is this Iyanden eldar supplement thing actually a book? or is it digital download only thing?

[Tyrendian]

This doesn't bode well for war walkers... gulp. I may be out $100 on a bet.

lol^^
might be optional though... like Krisis who can get two separate guns of the same type or a TL version at a discount? Who would have won that bet then? :D

[Defenestratus]

The fact that standard cats are still 12" simply baffles me. This means that Guardians still can't shoot outside of average assault range for a bog-standard infantry model. The rending-lite will only give you 0.5 rends per overwatch with a squad of 10 so thats a pretty poor "deterrent" if there ever was one honestly.

You realize that a guardian standing at one end of a vampire lander's wing, can't reach the other wingtip with his gun?

I was actually pretty nervous about having to repaint my 10 year old guardian models. I guess that I can keep them on the shelf after all.

[Tyrendian]

The fact that standard cats are still 12" simply baffles me. This means that Guardians still can't shoot outside of average assault range for a bog-standard infantry model. The rending-lite will only give you 0.5 rends per overwatch with a squad of 10 so thats a pretty poor "deterrent" if there ever was one honestly.

You realize that a guardian standing at one end of a vampire lander's wing, can't reach the other wingtip with his gun?

I was actually pretty nervous about having to repaint my 10 year old guardian models. I guess that I can keep them on the shelf after all.

did I miss something? where did you get that info?

[Lexington]

did I miss something? where did you get that info?
It's in the Eldar Codex preview on iBooks, under the Vyper weapons listing.

One of these days, I'd really like someone to pick Phil Kelly and/or Gav Thorpe's brain on the design logic behind keeping ShuriCats at their such a low range. I've got theories (threat ranges and army themes), but it still feels a bit weird.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm surprised they didn't increase it.

However, guess it depends upon how Battle Focus works out. If memory serves, run moves, already being random effectively ignore difficult terrain. Fleet of course gives you a valuable distance re-roll. Means you can in theory draw your opponent into difficult terrain whilst still pouring on their otherwise not inconsiderable firepower.

But yeah. 18" would have been preferable!

[Defenestratus]

I'm surprised they didn't increase it.

However, guess it depends upon how Battle Focus works out. If memory serves, run moves, already being random effectively ignore difficult terrain. Fleet of course gives you a valuable distance re-roll. Means you can in theory draw your opponent into difficult terrain whilst still pouring on their otherwise not inconsiderable firepower.

But yeah. 18" would have been preferable!

Big deal if I can run and shoot.... I'm still within charge range when I end up emptying the clip of the guardian.

Eldar want to be close ranged but not in range of being charged... in 6th its really difficult to pull off because of the longer than average charge distances...

Giving guardians rendinglite won't save them from horrible deaths at the hands of anything that is S4 T4 in close combat.

[cebalrai]

This doesn't bode well for war walkers... gulp. I may be out $100 on a bet.


I don't really care if WW having two of the same gun makes them TL because I'll just take one scatter laser and one starcannon.

[legalsmash]

Big deal if I can run and shoot.... I'm still within charge range when I end up emptying the clip of the guardian.

Eldar want to be close ranged but not in range of being charged... in 6th its really difficult to pull off because of the longer than average charge distances...

Giving guardians rendinglite won't save them from horrible deaths at the hands of anything that is S4 T4 in close combat.

Iirc you dont count terrain difficulty when running but you do with assault? In rhat case shoot and go gigggle in the forest.

[Carstens]

The important part isn't that you can run/shoot, but that you can shoot/run. Between premeasuring, fleet and rending lite that should give you a comfortable 15inch distance 8 times out of 9.

[Vdor103]

Even if the guardians' S'cats only have 12", isn't the threat of ELM, S'Can, or S'las count for something? Positioned well, they can draw opponents near and hopefully distancing them from support units, while your support units can get there faster to support.

I'm reserving judgment until we know what else could add to their stats/unit options. Cheaper heavy weapons, warlock options? Special rules? Who knows?

[scadugenga]

My iPad sample shows nothing re: cat range being 12".

It does show bs4 vypers though.

It also, in the miniatures section, labels previously identified warlocks as spirit seers and farseers. Even they proxy! ;p

[DrLove42]

If thats true and it is only 12" i just dont see gusrdians being used unless theyve got some great boosts. Heavy Weapons, support weapons was rumoured....

Between DA, Rangers amd scoring wraithguard i just dont see something that are basically no better than more expensive cultists getting tabletime

[Vdor103]

My iPad sample shows nothing re: cat range being 12".

I don't have my ipad with me, but what happens when you touch the S'cats? A weapon profile *might* appear

[Sildani]

What you have to do to touch any part of a page in the iPad preview, that brings up the controls. Tap the three-lines icon in the upper left and then tap "glossary". Read and enjoy!

[Eldar_Atog]

I don't have my ipad with me, but what happens when you touch the S'cats? A weapon profile *might* appear

Yup, it does. It will show you the weapon details for the catapults and cannons.

[Mr Mystery]

Big deal if I can run and shoot.... I'm still within charge range when I end up emptying the clip of the guardian.

Eldar want to be close ranged but not in range of being charged... in 6th its really difficult to pull off because of the longer than average charge distances...

Giving guardians rendinglite won't save them from horrible deaths at the hands of anything that is S4 T4 in close combat.

S4 T4 should be mincing Guardians in combat. Trick is to bait your hook, and make sure you turn the tables with your stronger units.

Range aside, Shuriken Catapults are filthy weapons. Bit of Guide and they'll punish pretty much any unit quite heavily. Are they a 'backbone' unit? Nope. Dire Avengers are though. I see Guardians as a sort of mobile reserve, there to add weight of firepower to any particular attack.

And my whole point, which you've nearly sidestepped in favour of a quick whinge, is that Shoot/Run has boosted up the humble Guardian.

[Koremu]

Though any news on my beloved spiders? Their page was up, but the text to small for me to read.

Actually, yes, sort of.

GW leaked the 1.0 Errata:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250082a_Eldar_v1.0_June13.pdf

So no rending for spiders, it seems.

Also jetpack units, hit and run, battle focus.

You sure that isn't a Support Weapon rather than Warp Spider Weapon? 48" range/Barrage/Heavy 1 doesn't strike me as very traditional WS weapon

[scadugenga]

Yeah, I was able to find it. 12". Rending lite.

Not very impressed.

12" is still,too short for Guardians.

[DarkLink]

Range aside, Shuriken Catapults are filthy weapons. Bit of Guide and they'll punish pretty much any unit quite heavily.

But... that 12" range is a really big but.

[Iyandagar]

Gotta say, 172 pages on this thread and of those 172 a fair amount were interesting, those that were throwing around early images of them beautiful new models and possible rules, unfortunately the posts writing off units or models before the codex has even dropped not so much.

[Kyban]

But... that 12" range is a really big but.

There's really no reason for it either, why does the "most advanced" race have the shortest range weapons where it matters and tau have simple yet much more effective tech?!

[zenBen]

Why can't they just give them weapon options? Like lasguns again! Or plasma lite, Eldar are supposed to be masters of plasma. If the options were differentiated but even remotely co-balanced, the models would fly off the shelves.

Any one know if WD has been uploaded anywhere? I'm unable to buy the english version for two more weeks, and I've been waiting for this release for decades.

[Bitrider]

Why can't they just give them weapon options? Like lasguns again! Or plasma lite, Eldar are supposed to be masters of plasma. If the options were differentiated but even remotely co-balanced, the models would fly off the shelves.

Any one know if WD has been uploaded anywhere? I'm unable to buy the english version for two more weeks, and I've been waiting for this release for decades.

Because you wouldn't buy the overpriced DA boxes for troops. :)

[DarkLink]

An all plasma aspect would be pretty sweet.

[zenBen]

TBH I was secretly hoping Fire Dragons would become the all-heat-based-weapons aspect, i.e. flamers, plasma or fusion as you preferred. They could even have had a rule that limited all Dragons squads in one army to the same weapon, just keep it a bit strategic and represent the singular focus of that particular shrine.

[lastlostboy]

You sure that isn't a Support Weapon rather than Warp Spider Weapon? 48" range/Barrage/Heavy 1 doesn't strike me as very traditional WS weapon

Of course it's the heavy support weapon! -_-
But I bet that all monofilament weapons have the same special rule base.
The 'monofilament' thing will be the counts-in-difficult-terrain like in the 4th edition night spinner rules.
So when the shadow weaver doesn't have 'rending', death spinners won't have it either.

With the rending lite of the shuriken weapons I doubt another 'weapon family' will get rending oder rending-like rules.

But I still hope for my beloved monofilament weapons. *.*

[biffster666]

Wraithknight (heavy support 240 points)
-Strong Profile (S:10 T:8 W:6 AS:3+, Jump-pack
- 2 heavy Phantom lasers (S10 AP 2 instant death on wound rolls of 6)
- Alternative equipment possible - for example close combat weapons with a 5+ invul and blind special rule or a S:6 5" Blast with AP2. with 5+ invul and blind special rule.

Had so much potential and its just a 240pt piece of garbage...even moving 12" a turn, it's garbage.

Played against Necron last night...

I went first and even with Imoteck he didn't sieze initiative (did you just see what happend there with a 4+) but it's Night fghting in turn one so he has his kewl effect rocking out the gate...anyway, the only unit I have within 36' of my buddy's C'tan Shard (yes yes, it's ONLY T7 and 4W, but 4++) is my Pathfinders (full ten for 240pts, can you say ironic? I knew you could.) I only hit with 5(gggrrr, BS4, come on!!!) but 3 were rending shots. Don't even wound with the other 2 shots. Rolls his 3 rending (ap 1, gimmie that black vehicle damage dice for light vehicles, YUMMY!!!) at 4++ and fails 2, too bad so sad. You can guess what happened turn 2 when Night Fighting ended.

Yes, the SuckKnight will move 12", it will have nasty weapons (Eldar with nasty weapons, shocking!!!!!), and it will have 6 wounds. T8 is not hard to crack, 90% of the weapons fired will be AP2 so welcome to the land of 5++ most of the time. Also, if you think 6W is awesome...in the above example you would have taken half those 6 wounds (other roll was a 4, failure for Suckknight!!) from only one unit of fire, and your Suckknight hasn't even moved. Be prepared to not even get to shoot, especially if you're not going first and no Night Fighting turn one. Beuller???

It saddens me that soon other armies will point and laugh at the Suckknight, but it does suck. So much potential, yet it falls flat.

On the flip side, Illic is sounding like a BEAST. A little bummed that it's a 6 insta kill instead of 4+ rending, but only a little. I just hope he's heavy 4. Being able to get a level 3 Farseer is going to RULE, and if Illic is really as awesome as he sounds it will be the first time I actually debate about an IC for an HQ choice instead of defaulting to two Farseers 90% of the time. Yes, Eldrad is awesome. I don't run an Ulthwe army, Swordwind forever!

[DarkLink]

Troll much?

[Marzillius]

Don't say anything until you have read the codex. Everyone thought the new Vampire Counts unit Hexwraiths would be stupidly OP and break the game. Turns out they are mediocre and not at all gamebreaking.

Chill. In all 6th edition codexes there are very few units that flat out suck (the ones that comes to mind are Warp Talons, Nephilim, Land Speeder Vengeance, Bloodcrushers and Sniper Drones).

[biffster666]

On the internet much DarkLink? I can do that to...

I've posted a whoppng 6, now 7 times, and all in this thread. Used to lurk, but everyone being 'joy joy' about the Suckknight when it was total suck if the rumored stat line was correct drew me out. So no, but I'll take the time to smack you down a little, jerk.

Anywho, maybe if you take a few minutes to read those whopping 5 other posts you won't come off as a common internet douche.

Marzillius...

Do any of those even come close to the visiual impact alone that the Wraithknight has? Do any of those cost $115 each? Don't get me wrong, I'm stilll buying one. It will just sit on my Eldar cabinet never to be heard from in battle.

[MrBo]

On the internet much DarkLink? I can do that to...

I've posted a whoppng 6, now 7 times, and all in this thread. Used to lurk, but everyone being 'joy joy' about the Suckknight when it was total suck if the rumored stat line was correct drew me out. So no, but I'll take the time to smack you down a little, jerk.

Anywho, maybe if you take a few minutes to read those whopping 5 other posts you won't come off as a common internet douche.

:sits up, rubs eyes:
WUT?

[Nx2]

@biffster: pretty sure people would rather say that about you. Please stop posting here.

[Iyandagar]

My Nephilim has been pretty good so far... Maybe because I gave him a name and heaped praise upon him for flying straight and true, and crashing and burning into a squad of marines wiping them all out denying them an objective....

[Tyrendian]

Don't say anything until you have read the codex. Everyone thought the new Vampire Counts unit Hexwraiths would be stupidly OP and break the game. Turns out they are mediocre and not at all gamebreaking.

Chill. In all 6th edition codexes there are very few units that flat out suck (the ones that comes to mind are Warp Talons, Nephilim, Land Speeder Vengeance, Bloodcrushers and Sniper Drones).

sniper drones crappy? no... just no... on the others we can aggree though - and that we'll have to wait and see for the Wraithknight... I mean being a bit of a glasscannon pretty much comes with being Eldar - and if all else fails, just keep it in reserve, have it stroll on in turn 2 (assuming Autarchs still now a thing or two about tactics^^) and wipe something important with help of the superior positioning from reserves...

[Sonikgav]

Don't say anything until you have read the codex. Everyone thought the new Vampire Counts unit Hexwraiths would be stupidly OP and break the game. Turns out they are mediocre and not at all gamebreaking.

Chill. In all 6th edition codexes there are very few units that flat out suck (the ones that comes to mind are Warp Talons, Nephilim, Land Speeder Vengeance, Bloodcrushers and Sniper Drones).

Dude, Sniper Drones are made of Utter Win.
9 BS5 48" Rapid Fire Snipers? That can move in and out of Blocking Terrain to shoot? With 3 BS5 Markerlights, and Stealth.... Stick an Ethereal near them and you have 27 BS5 Sniper Shots at 24"! Thats rediculous. Besides the obvious things that cause ID id stick my neck out to say theres not a better unit in the game for taking out Monstrous creatures for under 200 points. (Admittedly i havent seen the new Rangers yet, can you tell i like Snipers)

Tyranid Pyrovores on the other hand......

[Grey Mage]

And its units of snipers like that wich really worry me about the WraithKnight, not heavy weapons.

Or the fallen gods help us, the Dark Kin and their poison barrages....

[biffster666]

Anything Sniper is full of win in 6th, although I'm not a big fan of Deathmarks because it's a sniper rifle with 24' range? no, just no. Being able to pen light and glance medium armored vehicles now is awesome.

I'm 100% biased towards the Eldar, don't get me wrong. I've been playing since RT and the Eldar since 2nd. I WANT the Suckknight to be awesome, it SHOULD be awesome. Unfortuneately it sucks. If every tournament winner was polled about the Wraithknight asking if they would ever field it, 90% would immediately say no, the other 10% just got lucky.

Broken record time, sorry...

T8 3+/5++ with 6W is getting ground into chuck fast, especially if what people claim about this being the 'shootiest' edition of 40k is true. Minimum change required is T10 and make it immune to Fleshbane/Rending/Wraithcannons/Instant Death/etc. and I still hate 5++. Should be T10 2+/4++ immune to Fleshbane/Rending/Wraithcannons/Instant Death/etc. and make it 300pts, make it 350...you get my point.

In a perfect world (perceptions will vary) it would be a vehicle with this stat line...

WS/BS 3 S10 F/S armor 12 R armor 10 2+/4++ 6 Hull pts only 1d6 armor pen against it (no Melta/Armorbane/Ordance/etc. allowed) and immune to Haywire/Wraithcannons/etc. and it counts as 2 heavy support choices...make it 400+pts

Only BS 3...not 4, Even with only 1d6 armor pen armor 12 manageable and 10 easy(Sniper rifle!!! pew pew), counts as 2 heavy support(6 hull pts = 2 Falcons, less than 2 Land Raiders), costs a lot of points for a single powerful unit. People whine about 6 Hull Points saying it's Super Heavy and really structure points i.e. FW and Apoc at that....my original stat line had Structure points and modified it to hull pts for consumability and I point to the article BOLS featured regarding 6th moving towards Apoc. If the Suckknight model doesn't speak to that, regardless of stat line, I don't know what more could.

Please understand that I play in a 40k world of name your Land Raider variant, Contemptor's, Lucius pattern drop pods, Reapers, Tantalus, Lifta Droppa's, Mega and Kustom Meka Dreads, XV9's, TX42's, Spiritseers, Warp Hunters, etc. and on and on. I rarely play under 2k and the average is close to 3k (expanding to 8x4 table usually at 3k+). I also play Apoc, but that's a different discussion. As I mentioned before, perceptions will vary, heh heh

It's all good!

Go with your gut on this Grey Mage.

How about a NDK that's moving 12" also whacking it with a Daemon Hammer/Doomfist? Very Tasty! Even better, a squad of GK's in power armor with Daemon hammers.

[Tyrendian]

And its units of snipers like that wich really worry me about the WraithKnight, not heavy weapons.

Or the fallen gods help us, the Dark Kin and their poison barrages....

not that that's so much different for other MCs like Tyranids... take Trygons for example - similar defensive stats except T6 (which is irrelevant vs. snipers), similar points costs if upgraded... and deep strike instead of (presumably) massive ranged firepower. And (at least imo) Trygons are really not that bad! So yes, the Wraithknight looks to be very killable - but that's the whole point of a wargame... stuff dying! So that's a plus from my point of view :)

[Koremu]

T10?!

T10 is "immune to Assault Cannon" territory.

The fact that it only takes wounds from Anti-Tank missiles half of the time says to me that it's plenty tough enough.

[Sonikgav]

Yeah T10 is a bit much.

T8 is plenty tough enough and when you consider the rest of the army is going to be moving around too, only Anti-Tank is going to threaten it, and if its being fired at the Wraithknight (that only needs to dip its toe into cover to get a free 5+ save thanks to being an MC) then its not firing at your actual tanks. Hell, with transports/Knights/Wraithlords you can make most of your opponents standard infantry weapons (except Tau/Dark Eldar) completely useless untill you choose to show them softer targets.

[Warpspider89]

T8 3+/5++ with 6W is getting ground into chuck fast, especially if what people claim about this being the 'shootiest' edition of 40k is true. Minimum change required is T10 and make it immune to Fleshbane/Rending/Wraithcannons/Instant Death/etc. and I still hate 5++. Should be T10 2+/4++ immune to Fleshbane/Rending/Wraithcannons/Instant Death/etc. and make it 300pts, make it 350...you get my point.

I believe that you can find the "easy" button at Staples if that is what you are looking for.



In a perfect world (perceptions will vary) it would be a vehicle with this stat line...

WS/BS 3 S10 F/S armor 12 R armor 10 2+/4++ 6 Hull pts only 1d6 armor pen against it (no Melta/Armorbane/Ordance/etc. allowed) and immune to Haywire/Wraithcannons/etc. and it counts as 2 heavy support choices...make it 400+pts



So the possibility of the WK being one shot by a lascannon appeals to you? IMO T8 is much superior because you can take 6 wounds with failed saves.

I think the WK is going to be like most of Eldar units - especially wraith units - awful unless you understand how to used properly.

I see it as having fantastic potential! It has a battery of powerful weaponry, an impressive stat-bar, and solid mobility. Hello PEW PEW PEW then jump into easy combats to dodge the enemy's anti-tank firepower.

[Montserrat]

Mmm about the shuriken catpult being 12". I dont have an iPad, cant see that preview, buy IIRC we talking about the vyper shuricat profile...

I want to believe. In the same way that twin-linked bolters in space marine bikes got their range croped, may be the vyper, other vehicles and jetbikes shuriken catpults version are only 12", but the guardians ones are 18" or even 24" who knows.

Cmon they cant fall in the SAME ERROR for the 3rd time in a row.(you Gav, i hate you, but you Phil, if this is true, i hate you twice).

[DarkLink]

:sits up, rubs eyes:
WUT?

His response genuinely made me lol.



How about a NDK that's moving 12" also whacking it with a Daemon Hammer/Doomfist? Very Tasty! Even better, a squad of GK's in power armor with Daemon hammers.

Ok... so a 4 wound T6 model with all short ranged weapons that relies heavily on its potency in assault is "Very Tasty", but a 6 wound T8 model with much more potent long range firepower is garbage?

[Sonikgav]

Ok... so a 4 wound T6 model with all short ranged weapons that relies heavily on its potency in assault is "Very Tasty", but a 6 wound T8 model with much more potent long range firepower is garbage?

Guess he really likes that 2+ save

[Kamin_Majere]

In defense of the 2+ save i would rather have it than a 6th wound. With a 2+ save is generally way more survivable than T8 with a 3+ due to easier made saves against missiles/snipers/poison.

I lose lords to those much more often than i lose them to plasma and lascannons.

So i see his point... though i'm just getting them to stick in my display case so i could care less if they were T3 with a 6+ save in the end lol. I can finally get rid of football helmet head the towering destroyer and have a proper Fire Gale and Bright Stallion

[spaceman91]

I think the WK is going to be like a landraider. People will ether focus on it in which case the rest of the army is messing you up or it gets ignored in which case it goes messing stuff up. Im all for it. Win win.

[Bitrider]

Not sure if this was already posted but from the WD battle report, looks as if Battle Focus is 'run then shoot'.

[Learn2Eel]

Had so much potential and its just a 240pt piece of garbage...even moving 12" a turn, it's garbage.

Played against Necron last night...

I went first and even with Imoteck he didn't sieze initiative (did you just see what happend there with a 4+) but it's Night fghting in turn one so he has his kewl effect rocking out the gate...anyway, the only unit I have within 36' of my buddy's C'tan Shard (yes yes, it's ONLY T7 and 4W, but 4++) is my Pathfinders (full ten for 240pts, can you say ironic? I knew you could.) I only hit with 5(gggrrr, BS4, come on!!!) but 3 were rending shots. Don't even wound with the other 2 shots. Rolls his 3 rending (ap 1, gimmie that black vehicle damage dice for light vehicles, YUMMY!!!) at 4++ and fails 2, too bad so sad. You can guess what happened turn 2 when Night Fighting ended.

Yes, the SuckKnight will move 12", it will have nasty weapons (Eldar with nasty weapons, shocking!!!!!), and it will have 6 wounds. T8 is not hard to crack, 90% of the weapons fired will be AP2 so welcome to the land of 5++ most of the time. Also, if you think 6W is awesome...in the above example you would have taken half those 6 wounds (other roll was a 4, failure for Suckknight!!) from only one unit of fire, and your Suckknight hasn't even moved. Be prepared to not even get to shoot, especially if you're not going first and no Night Fighting turn one. Beuller???

It saddens me that soon other armies will point and laugh at the Suckknight, but it does suck. So much potential, yet it falls flat.

On the flip side, Illic is sounding like a BEAST. A little bummed that it's a 6 insta kill instead of 4+ rending, but only a little. I just hope he's heavy 4. Being able to get a level 3 Farseer is going to RULE, and if Illic is really as awesome as he sounds it will be the first time I actually debate about an IC for an HQ choice instead of defaulting to two Farseers 90% of the time. Yes, Eldrad is awesome. I don't run an Ulthwe army, Swordwind forever!


On the internet much DarkLink? I can do that to...

I've posted a whoppng 6, now 7 times, and all in this thread. Used to lurk, but everyone being 'joy joy' about the Suckknight when it was total suck if the rumored stat line was correct drew me out. So no, but I'll take the time to smack you down a little, jerk.

Anywho, maybe if you take a few minutes to read those whopping 5 other posts you won't come off as a common internet douche.

Marzillius...

Do any of those even come close to the visiual impact alone that the Wraithknight has? Do any of those cost $115 each? Don't get me wrong, I'm stilll buying one. It will just sit on my Eldar cabinet never to be heard from in battle.


Anything Sniper is full of win in 6th, although I'm not a big fan of Deathmarks because it's a sniper rifle with 24' range? no, just no. Being able to pen light and glance medium armored vehicles now is awesome.

I'm 100% biased towards the Eldar, don't get me wrong. I've been playing since RT and the Eldar since 2nd. I WANT the Suckknight to be awesome, it SHOULD be awesome. Unfortuneately it sucks. If every tournament winner was polled about the Wraithknight asking if they would ever field it, 90% would immediately say no, the other 10% just got lucky.

Broken record time, sorry...

T8 3+/5++ with 6W is getting ground into chuck fast, especially if what people claim about this being the 'shootiest' edition of 40k is true. Minimum change required is T10 and make it immune to Fleshbane/Rending/Wraithcannons/Instant Death/etc. and I still hate 5++. Should be T10 2+/4++ immune to Fleshbane/Rending/Wraithcannons/Instant Death/etc. and make it 300pts, make it 350...you get my point.

In a perfect world (perceptions will vary) it would be a vehicle with this stat line...

WS/BS 3 S10 F/S armor 12 R armor 10 2+/4++ 6 Hull pts only 1d6 armor pen against it (no Melta/Armorbane/Ordance/etc. allowed) and immune to Haywire/Wraithcannons/etc. and it counts as 2 heavy support choices...make it 400+pts

Only BS 3...not 4, Even with only 1d6 armor pen armor 12 manageable and 10 easy(Sniper rifle!!! pew pew), counts as 2 heavy support(6 hull pts = 2 Falcons, less than 2 Land Raiders), costs a lot of points for a single powerful unit. People whine about 6 Hull Points saying it's Super Heavy and really structure points i.e. FW and Apoc at that....my original stat line had Structure points and modified it to hull pts for consumability and I point to the article BOLS featured regarding 6th moving towards Apoc. If the Suckknight model doesn't speak to that, regardless of stat line, I don't know what more could.

Please understand that I play in a 40k world of name your Land Raider variant, Contemptor's, Lucius pattern drop pods, Reapers, Tantalus, Lifta Droppa's, Mega and Kustom Meka Dreads, XV9's, TX42's, Spiritseers, Warp Hunters, etc. and on and on. I rarely play under 2k and the average is close to 3k (expanding to 8x4 table usually at 3k+). I also play Apoc, but that's a different discussion. As I mentioned before, perceptions will vary, heh heh

It's all good!

Go with your gut on this Grey Mage.

How about a NDK that's moving 12" also whacking it with a Daemon Hammer/Doomfist? Very Tasty! Even better, a squad of GK's in power armor with Daemon hammers.

http://roflmouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/funny-animal-gifs-showoff-horse-fail.gif

And this is why people should wait for a codex to be released before they make uninformed statements about it....

[shabbadoo]

TBH I was secretly hoping Fire Dragons would become the all-heat-based-weapons aspect, i.e. flamers, plasma or fusion as you preferred. They could even have had a rule that limited all Dragons squads in one army to the same weapon, just keep it a bit strategic and represent the singular focus of that particular shrine.
We'll probably have to wait until the next codex for that, as well as for new models. Heck, Wraithguard have two shooty weapon options, and Wraithblades have two different choppy weapon options, so who knows what they will do in the future.

[Ghoulio]

One thing I noticed that I haven't seen anyone comment on is the fact that Vypers are BS 4 with no upgrades which based on literally every other book in the game would make standard guardians BS 4. Combine that with all the special rules and the points decrease they could end up being a really good unit (same for all their vehicles and jet bikes). BS 4 War Walkers, sign me up!

[biffster666]

And this is why people should wait for a codex to be released before they make uninformed statements about it....

You realize this is the internet, right?

Yes, T10 is too high, T9, 4++ with 6W. I'll still eat T8 4++ 6W too fast...T9 means all those ST 8 heavy weapons have to roll a 5 to wound....and then we're forced to take a crappy invulnerable. I would check out the Wraithknight then, not with T8 3+/5++, especially with no cover save unless I'm behind something BIG.

3+ means next to nothing when 80%+ of the time you're rolling the 5++. It makes the Riptide look small, but it doesn't have a 2+ . Missiles aren't even a real danger to Riptides wounding on a 2+, freaking deadly wounding on a 4+ to a Wraithknight taking a 5++... And 8/3 Krak missiles are so uncommon, amirite?

Insta win button??? Insta win is a myth created by people who most of the time have never faced a FW 40k unit but think they're 'insta win/broken', the ones that have are just weak. What weapon do you think your enemy would pull out of its arsenal first if you started to whine about insta win? 3 guesses and the first two don't count. Have you ever battled a marine army that has multiple Lucius pattern drop pods (before they were changed to separate fast attack choices) with Contemptors charging out of them? An Ork army with two Lifta Droppa's and a Mega and Kustom Meka dread? Tau army with XV9's and TX42's? Dark Eldar with a couple Reapers and a Tantulus? Eldar with Spiritseer, Hornets, and Warp Hunters? Some tough units, but none of them is 'insta win' or 'broken', although Dedicated Transport Lucius Pattern Drop Pods were so nasty.

Illic Darkspear > Wraithknight

Perceptions will vary, it's all good!!!

[DarkLink]

You realize this is the internet, right?

And that's an excuse?



Yes, T10 is too high, T9, 4++ with 6W. I'll still eat T8 4++ 6W too fast...T9 means all those ST 8 heavy weapons have to roll a 5 to wound....and then we're forced to take a crappy invulnerable. I would check out the Wraithknight then, not with T8 3+/5++, especially with no cover save unless I'm behind something BIG.

If we're going to make up random stats and point values and wishlist our hearts out, you might as well go T11. Just because.



3+ means next to nothing when 80%+ of the time you're rolling the 5++. It makes the Riptide look small, but it doesn't have a 2+ . Missiles aren't even a real danger to Riptides wounding on a 2+, freaking deadly wounding on a 4+ to a Wraithknight taking a 5++... And 8/3 Krak missiles are so uncommon, amirite?

Well, just for fun, let's do a little math. One BS4 missile hits on a 3+, wounds on a 4+, and there's a 5++ save. So one missile causes .222 wounds. So on average dice, it'll take 27 missile shots to kill a Wraithknight. The only army that can even approach that many missile launchers in an average game is Space Wolves, and congratulations, you just shot your entire army at one model. 240pts isn't that expensive for something that can draw that much fire.

T8, 6 wounds, and a 3+ save at 240pts is pretty tough, but not impossible to kill. That's something that game designers refer to as 'balanced'. And, of course, we haven't even seen the whole codex yet, so there is probably a lot more to the story than just this. For example, one of the new psychic powers grants Shrouded, right? Cast that on a Wraithknight and stick your toe in terrain, and suddenly you've got a 3+ cover save. Who, other than DE with their poisoned weapons, and Tau with their stupid markerlights, wants to deal with that?



Insta win button??? Insta win is a myth created by people who most of the time have never faced a FW 40k unit but think they're 'insta win/broken', the ones that have are just weak. What weapon do you think your enemy would pull out of its arsenal first if you started to whine about insta win? 3 guesses and the first two don't count. Have you ever battled a marine army that has multiple Lucius pattern drop pods (before they were changed to separate fast attack choices) with Contemptors charging out of them? An Ork army with two Lifta Droppa's and a Mega and Kustom Meka dread? Tau army with XV9's and TX42's? Dark Eldar with a couple Reapers and a Tantulus? Eldar with Spiritseer, Hornets, and Warp Hunters? Some tough units, but none of them is 'insta win' or 'broken', although Dedicated Transport Lucius Pattern Drop Pods were so nasty.

I... I don't know how to respond to this. What does Forgeworld have to do with anything? I'm pretty sure whatever you're smoking is probably bad for your health.

[AtmaTheWanderer]

3+ means next to nothing when 80%+ of the time you're rolling the 5++. It makes the Riptide look small, but it doesn't have a 2+ . Missiles aren't even a real danger to Riptides wounding on a 2+, freaking deadly wounding on a 4+ to a Wraithknight taking a 5++... And 8/3 Krak missiles are so uncommon, amirite?

It's a balancing act, man. Something is not going to get a 2+/5++ on top of T8 in a normal force org. That's just absurdly resilient. It already takes an average of like 28-30 BS4 krak missiles to kill the damn thing, which is a far cry from the "oh, it'll be dead before you get to do anything with it!" that you're proposing.

We also have not seen the psychic powers that can be used to back it up. If fortune works the same as it did previously, it suddenly just got a lot more survivable against those krak missiles.

Sorry to burst the bubble man, but it's simple economics. A $115 model is not going to suck. GW won't let it, they want every Eldar player or player who can take Eldar allies buying one, if not two. You are letting the fact you (as you state yourself) tend to play much higher point value games than the standard 1850-2k range taint your opinion of the model. Most typical armies are going to have to focus all of their heavy firepower available on this thing for about two full shooting phases to bring it down, and that is an absolutely crippling thing to have to do.

And FFS, in Apocalypse or a 3000 point game, anything your opponent wants dead in one round is going to die in one round.

[Learn2Eel]

Because Darklink and AtmaTheWanderer have already ripped apart your post, I will just add this little point; I've seen Riptides and Nemesis Dreadknights alike gunned down by small arms fire. And I don't mean one or two Tactical Squads rapid-firing, I mean hordes and hordes of lasguns that don't care that they are Strength 3 AP-. Factor into your equations that a Wraithknight cannot be hurt by anything that is Strength four or lower, and that krak-grenades need a six to wound it. Need I mention that six or more wounds on a Toughness eight monstrous creature with a decent armour and invulnerable save means that it will take several rounds of shooting from most armies to deal with the Wraithknight in one go? If you are up against armies that have Strength seven in abundance as opposed to Strength eight, the Wraithknight will be the one left with a grin (well, kind of) on its face.

[SeekingOne]

If I may add my 0.02 to the WK discussion...

From what we know so far, WK is, effectively, a beefed up Wraithlord. It is especially true in terms of durability, where WK has the same T and basic save with twice as many wounds.

Now, I didn't play with Wraithlords that much, but from what experience I have with them from my own games as well as from the games of my fellow Eldar players, I can tell that a Wraithlord felt ok in terms of general combat power, but kind of poor in terms of durability. But this feeling of poor durability has always originated primarily from the fact that a WL's "wounds" characteristic is too small. In other words, each individual wound is, generally, tough ehough to knock off (perhaps not too tough, but still ok) but a WL still goes down too fast because there's just 3 of them.

So, looking at WK, it's easy to tell that the Wounds issue seems to have been addressed generously enough. Granted, a WK is about twice as expensive as a WL, but it has both double durability AND (seemingly) close to double firepower - AND so, especially if it indeed also has a built-in jump pack, it's point cost is about balanced.

Thus, all things considered, WK still sounds like a decent unit to me - as far as the rumours go, of course.

And come on, as for me, when I play vs 'Nids for example, I always get a feeling that 6 wounds are pretty hard to remove even from a T6 creature :) Granted, Nids always have multiples of those, but then we're not limited to just one WK either.