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Defenestratus

03-29-2015, 09:05 AM

Time for Def's post count to explode as once again CW Eldar are rumored....

According to Lords of War (which apparently has since been deleted), after Admech silliness comes the core being and most pivotal race in the 40k universe: Craftworld Eldar.

Supposedly with some shiny new plastic jetbikes.

My bet is that this will be Codex Eldar: Saim Hann. An updated JB sprue, an updated Autarch, all with Decurion-like formations to put it all together. If it is, then I seriously doubt that we'll be seeing a change to the Wave Serpent's rules but rather, a change to the way you can get them.

via Lords of War Gaming 3-29-2015

Yes. After Admech it will be codex Craftworld: Eldar. Plastic jetbikes and Artach.

via atia (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304671-rumours-eldar-codex-jetbikes-farseerautarch-skyrunner/) 4-13-2015

Eldar Release
Minis coming:

- Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
- Codex Eldar: Craftworlds eBook
- Plastic Autarch clampack
- Windriders Jetbikes / Shining Spears combo-box
- Autarch/Warlock/Farseer Skyrunner combo-box
- Datacards: Craftworlds
- web paint bundles for:
Biel-Tan, Ultwe, Saim-Hann, Iyanden and Alaitoc
- Windrider host web bundle

These are all confirmed by GW website redirects.

via GW (youtube) 4--13-2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlpSuFZvC8g

Eldar Details & Prices

The new Eldar book will be 160 pages, which is on par with the Space Marine book that gave us faction rules for some chapters. Word on the street is that we will see the same treatment for select Craftworlds as well!

Via Warseer (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page24) 04-13-2015

from over on Dakka
Squidmanlolz wrote:
judgedoug wrote:
Pricing leaked for first wave
codex craftworld eldar $58.00
datacards $12.50
windriders $41.00
farseer skyrunner $33.00
autarch $26.00
shining spears $50.00
autarch skyrunner $33.00
codex fancy edition $165.00

Source?
Prices are usually leaked as scans, aren't they?
prices in U.S. dollars reportedly from a sales rep
13643

via Mr.Maloke on Warseer (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent&p=7423843&viewfull=1#post7423843) 4-14-2015

1366113662136631366413665

Eldar Rules Collated 4-14-2015

via Marneus41 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent&p=7423818&viewfull=1#post7423818)

3 new plastic kits :

- Eldar Windriders : 3 new motojets with all the weapon choices available.

- Eldar Farseer Skyrunner : 1 eldar farseer or warlock (2 heads and 2 weapons choice).

- Eldar Autarch : no options

New codex of 160 pages with description of 11 craftworld (nothing about specific rules for them).

2 new specific psy discipline (battle runes and fate runes).

One FOC like the necron :

1-3 guardian hosts (3 types available)
0-3 Regent of the warhost (Heroes, seer council, living legends (avatar and phoenix lords))
1-12 formation for each guardian ost (outcasts, crimson death, dire avenger shrine, wraith host, aspect host, wraith-construct, engines of vaul)

Distorsion wepon = D-weapon.

CC weapon of the wraithknight is D weapon.

The wraithknight is now a Colossal creature. Nothing said about Lord of War.

No relation between FOC and Distorsion weapon. They speak of distorsion weapon in general are D weapon. No weapon profile.

It is said that the distorsion weapon are very powerfull weapons and that is why they have the rule Destruction. After it is said that the wraithknight is equipped of 2 of them (Heavy wraith canon).

via Mr. Maloke (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent&p=7423843&viewfull=1#post7423843)

"scatter lasers now lost the twin linking bonus, however windriders can now get scatter lasers. (each model can change the TL shuriken catapult for either scatter laser or shuriken cannon)"

"windriders: same pts as before.
3 windriders

statline unchanged.

may include up to 7 additional windriders for same points as before
may take a windriderwarlock for same points as before pts
warlock may replace his hagun zar for a runespear for the same points as before
each windrider may exchange the TL shuriken catapult for:
scatter laser or
shuriken cannon, both same points. shuriken cannon as before.

that means you can basically have a 10 man unit entirely kitted with scatterlasers for 27ppm and add another warlock to them

they also are still troop selections. i think the meta shifts again.

the only other interresting things are those leaked 2 datacards and the 1 leaked psychic power in the WD:

runes of battle 1
destroy/renew
warpcharge 1

its either:
S5 ap 4 assault1, soulblaze flamer
or:
a friendly unit within 18" restores a single wound. this cannot bring units back to the board that have been removed as casuality.

and for the datacards:

11: 1 victory point if you kill a character (not just in a challenge, just a character)
12: gain a victory point if a enemy unit got killed by a eldar unit with the skimmer or eldar jetbike type. gain d3 vitory points if you killed 3 or more in one round. "

via Manakel (http://www.warhammer-forum.com/index.php?showtopic=229838&page=4)(using Google Translate from French so pls bear with)

I had white dwarf hands and also to the speeder bikes which are the same, it is the profile; the figure itself is much better. Regarding their options there is the possibility of their opener or a laser gun shuriken to ten points (same conditions as before).
WK enters colossal creature.
There is now a Host World War as a base ship with 1-3 host guards to choose from:
- 1 GP, 3 units guards defenders, a squadron of vyper a squadron of war walkers, 0-1 prescient Council
- 1 GP, 3 units of horsemen of the wind, a squadron of vyper and I do not know about the rest
- 1 GP, 3 units of shock guards, a squadron of vyper a squadron of war walkers, 0-1 prescient Council
Each keeper host can take regents of the world ship with either:
- Eldrad, Illic or Yriel
- 2 GP and a council, one of the GP can be Eldrad
- Avatar, Phoenix Lords
For each host guards can take 1-12 "I do not know the name" either:
- 1 unit to store
- 3 scarlet hunters
- 3 units Avengers
- Tanks
- Warriors appearance other than avengers
- I do not know anymore : Unsure:
All this from memory so I probably made some mistakes

Rules (White Dwarf) summary via DakkaDakka 4-15-2015

Wraithknight
1) It is a Gargantuan Creature. No mention on if it is a Lord of War.
2) The Ghostglaive is a Destroyer weapon for the Wraithknight only, meaning the Wraithlord uses the same weapon without it being a Destroyer weapon.
3) All Distortion weapons are Destroyer weapons, meaning that the Wraithcannon, Heavy Wraithcannon, D-Cannon (the artillery unit), D-Scythes and Heavy D-Scythes are all Destroyer weapons assuming none lost the Distort rule.
4) You can legally take up to 12 of these in that new Decurion style detachment via one of the Auxillary formations as you can take 12 Auxillary formations per 1 Core formation, basically rendering a Lord of War positional change pointless.
5) It still has 6 Wounds - the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage "half kills" it and is specified to do 3 Wounds to it.
6) It is not Initiative 1 either base or with the Ghostglaive, it strikes after the Initiative 9 Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster but before the Initiative 1 Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage. It is most likely still Initiative 5, making it even scarier than an Imperial Knight in combat.
7) In the "battle report", it takes on both of those Bloodthirsters and wins, it beats two Toxicrenes, then it pulps an Imperial Knight and a Transcendant C'tan in separate conflicts. It gets stomped by Deathwing Knights in Smite mode, however.

Windrider Jetbikes
1) They are exactly the same in terms of stats, special rules and so on; they are still 3+ armoured Eldar with Ballistic Skill 4 and the usual Eldar Jetbike rules. They are a Troops choice.
2) Each Windrider can take a Scatter Laser or Shuriken Cannon, not 1 in 3 like the old codex. Yes, this is as bonkers as we all initially feared.
3) Warlocks can now be purchased as part of the squad rather than having to purchase a Council and splitting them off as before. We can expect the same thing to happen with Guardians.
4) Ancient Doom and Battle Focus are still present, though any changes to either are unconfirmed. We can all hope that Battle Focus actually works for everyone that has it now, including Jetbikes.
5) Bladestorm is exactly the same as it was, as we all knew from the Harlequin codex.
6) All of the guns appear identical, save that the Scatter Laser no longer has the Laser Lock special rule.
7) Warlocks can only take Sanctic Daemonology and Runes of Battle. This might indicate that Eldar have a similar rule to Grey Knights where they can safely use Sanctic Daemonology but can never use Malefic Daemonology.

"Decurion" Detachment
1) Eldar have their own version of this, featuring Command, Core and Auxiliary choices. You can take 1-3 Core choices (all of them are Guardian themed, one being Jetbike oriented and all requiring one Vyper), 0-3 Command choices per Core choice and 1-12 Auxiliary choices per Core choice.
2) Wraithknights are part of two separate Auxillary choices, and as Auxiliary choices are 1-12 per Core choice, you can legally take 12 Wraithknights per Core choice as mentioned above.
3) The "army-buff" as per the Decurion is specifically related to mobility, though whether it will be solely tied to Battle Focus (seems to be the implication) or will just affect all units remains to be seen.

Additionally, the codex is indeed 160 pages. We seem to be getting some kind of special bonuses related to each Craftworld, but this isn't specifically outlined. Whether or not we get Craftworld rules ala Space Marine Chapter Tactics remains to be seen.

via George Smiley 4-15-2015

1368113682136831368413685

via Iuchiban (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page69) 4-17-2015

Ok. Let's go.
All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death.

Step by step.
Banshees add +3" when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.
There are no "chapter tactics".

Yes they have:
Primaris: Guide (no changes)
1: Executioner: Focussed witch fire. 24". Target receives 3 hits, always wounds on 2+. If target diez, another model receives 2 hits. If target dies another gone receives 1 hit.
2: Fatality: You re-roll to wound or to penetrate when firing at target unit. 24"
3: Will of Asuryan: 12" bubble of Fear and Adamantium will
4: Fortune: As always
5: Mind fight: Mainly the same.
6: Ancestral Storm: Warp charges 3 (5" blast), Warp charge 4 (Apoc blast), 24", Haywire, wounds 2+
Names may be different in the English version. (I own the Spanish one).

Wraithknight is LoW (295 points), Jump gargantuan creature
Wraithguard/blades are not tropos anymore if taking a Spiritseer (Only Elites)
Crimson hunter basically the same, but 140 points only.

No changes on Battle focus of the bladestorm rule. No hints on the Iyanden codex

(Wraithknight) Sword + Shield: Free (Sword is Strenght D)
Solar cannon + Shield: Free
(The Wraithknight's Heavy Wraithcannons) Is the equipment by default.

(Jetbikes) 17/model, every model can purchase one scatter laser or shuriken cannon for +10 points

(Wraithknight Suncannon) Sun (Sorry for the "solar") remains the same.

(Wave) Serpents are 110 points, and shield is now: S6, Assault 2D6, Ignores cover, One use only.

Shining spears have 4+ cover save if they moved the previous turn. 25/model. Lance is: 6", F6, Assault 1, Lance. In combat: +3F when charging. Both are AP3.

Wraithblades: Same but 30/model and have Rage.

Hemlock: Same cost, has Lvl 2, can choose Daemonology (Sacred), Telepathy and Battle Runes. D-Scythes are a special D weapon as mentioned above,.

Scorpions: 17/model, Infiltration, Stealth, and Shrouded until they fire or fight in combat
Warp Spiders: 19/model Monofilament rule has changed.They roll to wound against I, although the T is still used to calculate ID.
Hawks: 16/model, they move 18", and when moving over a Flyer the can do a special attack. Hits on 4+, S4, AP4 Haywire

(Wraithguard) Cost is the same.
(Regards to Autarchs and Swooping Hawk "no scatter") Basically the same.
(Squadrons of Falcons/Fire Prisms/Night Spinners) YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Up to three!!!!!!!! And they have special rules if done so:
Falcon: if Deep Strike, first Falcon does not scatter. Others are place at 4".
Fire Prism: For each additional Fire Prism firing +1S / -1AP
Night Spinners: +1S for each Night spinner
(Serpent Shield) Nop, only 24" (range)
(Eldar Warhost Detachment) The main bonus of the Warhost is that they always run 6".
(Serpent Shield Defence) When working as a shield, it works as before.
Falcon can DS only if taken in a unit of 3.

Guardians: Same
Dire avengers: They overwatch with BS2
Avatar is LoW, but mainly the same
I cannot see any psyker being able to get malefic daemonology

Formation rules:
Guardian battlehost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Guardians can purchase a Platform for free.
Windrider host: Once per game all formation gets Shred when firing shuriken weapons
Guardian Stormhost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Storm guardians can purchase 2 special weapons for free.
Seer council: They harness Warp charges with 3+.
Aspect Host: They re-roll LD tests and get +1 to WS or BS.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Once per game, Shuriken weapons are Assault 3. +1 to BS
Crimson Death: Preferred enemy (Flying things), 4+ cover save, and if Jink, may re-roll the cover save.
Wraithhost: Get battle trance, if targe is at 18" or less from spiritser, reroll to hit

(Warp Spider guns) Why is that? You still have S6. Target needs to have I6 to wound him on 4+.
(Dire Avengers Troops) Yes, they are.

Before leaving I will post the list of special ítems:
- A pistol S4, AP3, Rending
- A sword +2S, AP- Rending and if fighting in a challenge, wounds on 2+ and Instant Death
- One sniper rifle, AP2, 120"
- One ítem that if bearer does not cast any phychic power, or shots during the shooting phase, he can run 48" and may reroll cover saves.
- One sword +1S, AP3, Soulblaze (affects wounded unit and all enemy units at 6")
- One ítem that when bearer diez, 5" template is placed and all models suffer one S4, AP5 hit. If at least, one wound is infflicted, bearer comes back to life, with 1W. One use only
- One ítem that makes psyhic powers required 1 WC less. No inv saves if done so.

via Iuchiban (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page69) 4-18-2015

Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6" get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6" are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5" marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.

Also I will add that illic night spears weapon has lost distort but always has precision shot and can give that to ranger units he joins.

via Iuchiban (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page69) 4-18-2015

Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.

Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.

Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost.
Exarch powers, as we all know them are gone. Now all aspects get a new ability for free. Exarchs get another one (free as well). And they have 2W.

Autarchs are pretty much the same.
Yes. If the shield is fired, you lose it for the rest of the game.

Dire Avengers: Overwatch at BS2 OR get counter attack and stubborn
Exarch: 4++

Howling banshees: +3" when running or assaulting. Ignore I penalties when assaulting through difficult terrain. Fear. No Overwatch allowed when Banshees assault
Exarch: Units in CC with the Banshees have -2L

Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the fire or assault.
Exarch: During a challenge compare I values. Exarch gets +1A for each point his I is better tan his oponent.

Fire Dragons: +1 on the vehicle damage chart.
Exarch: Once per turn, may reroll one to hit, to wound or to penetrare roll

Swooping Hawks: If the move over a flier, every modl gets one special attack that hits on 4+, S4, AP4, Haywire. They move 18"
Exarch: His unit does not scatter if DS

Warp Spiders: They may jump during the opponent's shooting phase. If after the jum, the spiders are out of LoS or reach, firing unit cannot choose another target.
Exarch: His unit reroll all LD tests

Shining Spears: 4+ cover sabe
Exarch: Reroll to wound vs MC and rerolls to penétrate

Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-29-2015, 09:55 AM

It could also be possibly be a campaign book like "shield of baal" with Saim Hann as one of the main factions in it, but I agree if it is an actual codex it's more likely to be something specific like than rather htna a whole new "Codex eldar". I don't know why people are thinking codex books would be updated when they are so new so I agree with you there. Jetbikes are a long long long time coming, so ill be very happy for eldar players!

DrLove42

03-29-2015, 09:57 AM

I guess if the jetbike kit is out there would need to be anew Autarch on bike kit

Id like a generic character on bike kit, customisable to Autarch, Farseer or Warlock

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-29-2015, 10:08 AM

I guess if the jetbike kit is out there would need to be anew Autarch on bike kit

Id like a generic character on bike kit, customisable to Autarch, Farseer or Warlock

I could see them doing a duel kit with vanilla jetbikes and shining spears as one kit, and a seperate kit with a single jetbike that makes autarch, farseer and warlock.

Defenestratus

03-29-2015, 10:16 AM

I've also been thinking about converting the harlie jetbikes to CWE with just a simple torso and arm swap on the rider. Its not too difficult. However, for jetbike models the 3rd party sculptors are a real treasure. My wallet isn't looking forwards to having to replace all of my jetbike models if any new plastic kit is something I like!!

Doesn't GW know that I have a damn boat to buy? How inconsiderate of them :P

DrBored

03-29-2015, 10:21 AM

There seems to be conflicting info on this. Nightfury has suggested that all the Codices that have come out since 6th edition (all hardback) are considered 'done', and we'll only see splash releases to fill out finecast replacements (etc) and smaller factions. A few subsequently pointed out that Craftworld: Eldar could be different than the normal Eldar book, a sub-faction.

40kGamer

03-29-2015, 10:52 AM

Personally I hope they just keep layering new supplements onto the main books. There's a lot to explore with the major craftworlds.

angkor what?

03-29-2015, 02:20 PM

With these recent developments involving smaller factions, I can really see eldar being split into its true nature wether it's GW or FW. Individual craftworld don't need supplements just give them the decurion treatment.
Codex:-craftworld eldar
-dark eldar
-harlequins
-outcasts/corsair (a proper place for sliscus, yriel and rangers.)
-exodites (more difficult but a unique flavour)

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-29-2015, 02:31 PM

Personally I hope they just keep layering new supplements onto the main books. There's a lot to explore with the major craftworlds.

I'm the opposite - I want more aliens in the game, but wouldnt mind if they were small harlequin/tempestus sized ranges. You are right though - theres a ton to explore within the xenos factions (eldar especially, but even necrons I have potential these days)

eldargal

03-30-2015, 02:29 AM

God I hope they fix eldar assault and don't screw up anything else.

Mr Mystery

03-30-2015, 05:28 AM

Defenestratus

03-30-2015, 06:31 AM

God I hope they fix eldar assault and don't screw up anything else.

Whatever they end up doing, I don't think we'll see a brand new Codex: Eldar. I think that we're looking at Codex Eldar: Saim Hann which will be rules from the existing Eldar codex combined with a decurion-esque formation chart that will make my eyes bleed to figure out.

No worries. Banshees and Scorpions will still be trash :P

eldargal

03-30-2015, 06:32 AM

Well I'm ok with another Craftworld supplement, especially Saim Hann.:)

Probably.><

Erik Setzer

03-30-2015, 08:41 AM

with a decurion-esque formation chart that will make my eyes bleed to figure out.

I wrote a 2000 point list last night... and then realized after the fact that I now have to go back and add a Bloodthirster because I forgot you're required to run a BT or Lord of Skulls (at 888 points, no thanks) to do that formation-of-formations. But if I add the BT, I'll need to not only cut out the Soul Grinder that provides my only real ranged firepower, but also some of the Bloodletters. It'll be just the BT, the Slaughtercult core (Lord, 3x 8 Berzerkers, 1x 8 Possessed), and the Daemon formation (1x Herald, 16 Bloodletters, 8 Bloodletters, 3 Bloodcrushers). To be honest, that's not really an imposing list.

I think I'm going to stick to CAD and just forget all those bonuses. There's no way to make that formation-of-formations work without running 2500-3000 points at least, except maybe doing core, BT, and then some vehicles. But I want Bloodcrushers to run with my Lord on Juggernaught, so I have to try to work in the Daemon formation, or the formation with Terminators and two Bloodcrusher units minimum, while I only have one unit of Bloodcrushers and don't want the Terminators.

I hope for Eldar's sake they don't have to deal with that. Especially with the combinations in some formations making it clear that fluff isn't part of the reason they exist.

40kGamer

03-30-2015, 11:54 AM

I'm the opposite - I want more aliens in the game, but wouldnt mind if they were small harlequin/tempestus sized ranges. You are right though - theres a ton to explore within the xenos factions (eldar especially, but even necrons I have potential these days)

Actually I would prefer the same thing as you here. I should have said I prefer supplements to codex rewrites. So if I rank order things it would go:

> New Alien Races
> New Supplements
> Moldy cheese
> Dead pets
> Codex Rewrites

Defenestratus

03-30-2015, 12:03 PM

I hope for Eldar's sake they don't have to deal with that. Especially with the combinations in some formations making it clear that fluff isn't part of the reason they exist.

Whatever they do, you can be guaranteed that wave serpents will be difficult to obtain. There will be quite a tax on taking them.

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-30-2015, 12:05 PM

Actually I would prefer the same thing as you here. I should have said I prefer supplements to codex rewrites. So if I rank order things it would go:

> New Alien Races
> New Supplements
> Moldy cheese
> Dead pets
> Codex Rewrites

haha yep :D

The galaxy feels very small, especially when you look at the faction list (newly reordered too) on the GW site :
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa207/embodiedscrew/0_zpszjpsdfvt.jpg
I have no problem with there being so many imperial factions as I totally get they are what the main backstory is focussed on (and mechanicum were needed really) and they are basicly the "protagonists", and id happily welcome more chaos (legions ect) and eldar too. But I also think there should be more new xenos as well to balance things out - there are plenty of races that have been almost wiped out, lost their homeworlds ect - so they could introduce them as small harlequin sized armies that could be used to ally with other alien races like tau, eldar/dark-eldar, orks - and hell even chaos and imperium. I also really want to see Hrud as a full-sized faction (and not as boring space skaven or swamp things ffs)

Charon

03-30-2015, 01:05 PM

Whatever they do, you can be guaranteed that wave serpents will be difficult to obtain. There will be quite a tax on taking them.

Do not think so as it is a dedicated transport. If it follows the trend we will even see it as a Fast Attack choice and maybe the Falcon also moves to dedicated transport.

Defenestratus

03-30-2015, 01:06 PM

Do not think so as it is a dedicated transport. If it follows the trend we will even see it as a Fast Attack choice and maybe the Falcon also moves to dedicated transport.

Ok then a wraithknight tax then.

Charon

03-30-2015, 01:11 PM

More probable. But then again there is still CAD.

40kGamer

03-30-2015, 01:13 PM

Maybe we'll get a Biel-tan supplement that actually makes Banshees useable! :p

crazyterran

03-30-2015, 01:42 PM

INC Codex Harlequin version of Holofields and the Serpent Shield being nerfed.

And the Banshees find grenades in a box at the back of the Aspect Shrine.

Erik Setzer

03-30-2015, 01:51 PM

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-30-2015, 02:00 PM

Wow. There are almost as many distinct Eldar armies as there are other aliens combined. It's like Imperials and Chaos are fight, and some Eldar are there too, but the rest of us are just footnotes in all of that.

Not to mention all of the aliens except tyranids have 2 arms and 2 legs. Silver people, pointy eared people, evil pointy eared people, pointy eared theatre groups, blue people, green people, avian people ect hell, even the extra-dimensional "daemons" are mostly humanoid with the exception of a few Tzeentch figures - I want more of that gothic SF horror. I'm not asking for ultra-bizarre stuff like I make myself, but definitely something more than space dinosaur-bugs.

Mr Mystery

03-30-2015, 02:23 PM

Going on our planet, the human form is pretty damned useful....

Plus, old ones clearly had a template 😛

daboarder

03-30-2015, 02:26 PM

Whatever they do, you can be guaranteed that wave serpents will be difficult to obtain. There will be quite a tax on taking them.

i think it far more likely the shield will just go as an offensive weapon

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-30-2015, 02:48 PM

Going on our planet, the human form is pretty damned useful....

Plus, old ones clearly had a template 😛

I don't find it useful at all! I keep tripping over my own bloody shoes! :P

but seriously, in keeping with 40k's gothic Science fantasy backround you could do all kinds of nightmarish stuff - Slaugth being a great existing example (they have a great medieval folklore feel to them, proper shadowy 40k boogiemen!), but I'd like to see a vampire counts spirit host equivilent in 40k with gothic ghost-like energy beings, especially if they had weird technological contraptions on par with the mortis engine. The latter is something I plan to do myself as a "proof of concept".

deinol

03-30-2015, 03:00 PM

Wow. There are almost as many distinct Eldar armies as there are other aliens combined. It's like Imperials and Chaos are fight, and some Eldar are there too, but the rest of us are just footnotes in all of that.

It's almost like they are one of the oldest, richest devolved factions in the game.

Orks do have a bunch of clans they could bring back though.

40kGamer

03-30-2015, 03:07 PM

I don't find it useful at all! I keep tripping over my own bloody shoes! :P

but seriously, in keeping with 40k's gothic Science fantasy backround you could do all kinds of nightmarish stuff - Slaugth being a great existing example (they have a great medieval folklore feel to them, proper shadowy 40k boogiemen!), but I'd like to see a vampire counts spirit host equivilent in 40k with gothic ghost-like energy beings, especially if they had weird technological contraptions on par with the mortis engine. The latter is something I plan to do myself as a "proof of concept".

I think there is a belief that non-humanoid races may not be profitable. Gamers may shy away from something they can't relate to... explains why over 50% of the factions are based on humans and all of the others are humanoid with the exception of the alien dinosaur wannabes. :p

ShadowcatX

03-30-2015, 03:36 PM

i think it far more likely the shield will just go as an offensive weapon

It'll be difficult (ie. impossible) to do that without a re-write of the codex and that seems to be pretty unlikely.

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-30-2015, 04:00 PM

I think there is a belief that non-humanoid races may not be profitable. Gamers may shy away from something they can't relate to... explains why over 50% of the factions are based on humans and all of the others are humanoid with the exception of the alien dinosaur wannabes. :p

i think it's a self-fulling prophecy because they are scared to take the risk, and since no one is taking the risk, theres little to prove it can work. It's why I think small harlequin sized releases would be good for more weirer stuff - and personally id be perfectly happy if it was only 1 small faction like that with one or two kits.

Also, Maybe to dudes, but i dunno - all the girls i talk to seem to really love the weird/creepy stuff and find all the humanoid stuff boring (a lot of girl 40k gamers seem to pick nids too) - but I admit that thats ancedotal to be fair, and they are the sort your more likely to find at a skinny puppy concert rather than a GW store :P The best arguement "For" them is probably Daleks which are arguably one of the most (if not the most) profitable SF alien baddies of all time.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-30-2015, 04:08 PM

I'd love for this to be true. I'd have new jetbikes in a flash.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

03-30-2015, 04:20 PM

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-30-2015, 04:39 PM

Considering the rate at which Games-Workshop is producing plastic injection molds, I think they could reasonably produce a single 'experimental' kit which could supply an entire army. Look at the Grey Knights Strike Squad - can easily be used to build units from each part of the FOC. Perhaps even pare it down to a single plastic sprue that can be used to make two of a variety of, say, "squid aliens" - if their appearance is inorganic, won't need to worry about repetitive posing, can just have the models articulate during assembly.

That's kinda how I envisioned enslavers done when I made the proof of concept army some years ago, yeah. Allthough I think that sort of image is a bit redundant now due to those spore mine focussed nid models from late last year. I think the Energy based aliens would be a good fit though and GW seem to be able to do lots of "effects" based plastic parts like that nowadays that look really good, so it would be cool to see all that put into a singular faction.

Unit options: fleshy tentacles as tarpit, bladed tentacles as assault and amputated tentacles replaced with guns. Maybe include a single small "vehicle segment" on the sprue, so if you buy 4+ kits you have enough to make a centipede-vehicle. (1 HP = 1 segment, can buy additional segments for +x pts. Can transport 1 model for each HP it has remaining.)

Love the idea of a centipede vehicle made from parts from multiple boxes, very clever idea! Stuff like that is exactly how I could see a "all in one" single plastic kit for an entire faction working. I doubt it would kill their entire business in one fell shot to release one box like that either. Technically all these "new" factions are "risks" to a degree, too.

I see this idea kicking around sometimes, and consider it fairly flawed. A humanoid form might be the best form for tool manipulation, climbing and running in a wooded-plains-type environment, that can be derived from a tetrapod bodyplan, but that is a very, very specific set of conditions.

Yeah, the rest of the universe seems a lot more inhospitable towards the fragile human form.

Erik Setzer

03-30-2015, 06:52 PM

It's almost like they are one of the oldest, richest devolved factions in the game.

Orks do have a bunch of clans they could bring back though.

Well, yeah, that's the thing... Orks had three books back in Rogue Trader. People talk about all the "variety" in the game now, but I can look back fondly on a Blood Axe list (with allied Imperials in the list... now if I ally with Imperials as my Blood Axes should do, I have to stay 6" away from them), Freebooterz (all kinds of shenanigans), Snakebites (and the Feral Orks list in 3rd edition), Evil Sunz (Kult of Speed in 3rd edition), Deffskullz, Goffs, etc., etc., etc.... Orks have been around a long time, were one of the first armies in the game, have a lot of variety, but they ripped that variety out in 3rd, then tried to duct tape some of it back on, then ripped most of that right back off. Orks alone should be able to compete with Eldar for variety.

ShadowcatX

03-30-2015, 08:53 PM

Eldar don't have near the variety we once had either, ironically. Not that taking howling banshees and striking scorpions as troops would be particularly good currently, but oh for the glory days. (And 3 shot starcannons.)

Charon

03-31-2015, 12:41 AM

Could be really a full codex...

No longer available in GW store and the only version you can buy online (except the digital of course) is the english version.. all other languages have vanished.

Path Walker

03-31-2015, 12:48 AM

Well, yeah, that's the thing... Orks had three books back in Rogue Trader. People talk about all the "variety" in the game now, but I can look back fondly on a Blood Axe list (with allied Imperials in the list... now if I ally with Imperials as my Blood Axes should do, I have to stay 6" away from them), Freebooterz (all kinds of shenanigans), Snakebites (and the Feral Orks list in 3rd edition), Evil Sunz (Kult of Speed in 3rd edition), Deffskullz, Goffs, etc., etc., etc.... Orks have been around a long time, were one of the first armies in the game, have a lot of variety, but they ripped that variety out in 3rd, then tried to duct tape some of it back on, then ripped most of that right back off. Orks alone should be able to compete with Eldar for variety.

You actually have no idea what you're talking about and obviously didn't own or play with those books at the time, they didn't add much variety at all, they were mostly fluff books.

- - - Updated - - -

Eldar don't have near the variety we once had either, ironically. Not that taking howling banshees and striking scorpions as troops would be particularly good currently, but oh for the glory days. (And 3 shot starcannons.)

Don't worry about Troops, those days are gone, its Formations and Detachments now

daboarder

03-31-2015, 01:12 AM

You actually have no idea what you're talking about and obviously didn't own or play with those books at the time, they didn't add much variety at all, they were mostly fluff books.

still smoking that same stuff I see, you should lay off, it'll make the problem permanent

Cutter

03-31-2015, 01:21 AM

You actually have no idea what you're talking about and obviously didn't own or play with those books at the time, they didn't add much variety at all, they were mostly fluff books.

I'll give you Waaargh Orks as a fluff book, but Ere We Go and Freebooterz were chock full army lists, 7 between them.

Path Walker

03-31-2015, 03:39 AM

I'll give you Waaargh Orks as a fluff book, but Ere We Go and Freebooterz were chock full army lists, 7 between them.

Army lists that were various varieties and mixups of what they already had for the most part, all the army lists can easily be replicated with the modern ork codex except maybe the Chaos Boyz and the Hybrids, but they have so many more units now that saying they have less variety is ridiculous. If I want a renegade Runtherd mob, easily done, Bad Doks? Use Unbound and you can make whatever lists you can imagine, they're the rules, use them.

And you can't complain about rules balance being out of whack and then complain that you don't have variety and zaniness of Rogue Trader, those are two ideas that are totally in opposition.

daboarder

03-31-2015, 03:59 AM

And you can't complain about rules balance being out of whack and then complain that you don't have variety and zaniness of Rogue Trader, those are two ideas that are totally in opposition.

I present to you most other wargames as a counter point, namely infinity.

Path Walker

03-31-2015, 04:12 AM

I present to you most other wargames as a counter point, namely infinity.

Doesn't have the zaniness of Rogue Trader, so doesn't address the point in the slightest. But nice try for you, must be hard.

daboarder

03-31-2015, 04:55 AM

oh poor little path, the point is, that you can have an elaborate and insanely complex wargame without sacrificing game balance, but I guess that went over your head. To hard for you? hows the headache?

Erik Setzer

03-31-2015, 05:16 AM

Glad I have that troll blocked so I don't see his posts except when people reply to them. The whole thing with claiming the Ork books in RT didn't have army lists was especially stupid, given that I pointed out examples, and then I also noted examples from 3rd edition (which certainly wasn't known for being fluff books). It's amazing that someone will make a blatantly false argument just to be argumentative.

Cutter

03-31-2015, 05:18 AM

It's amazing that someone will make a blatantly false argument just to be argumentative.

All part of the GW Hobby Experience (TM) apparently.

Orks were great though weren't they :-)

Erik Setzer

03-31-2015, 05:28 AM

Orks were great though weren't they :-)

Yeah... It bothers me when people talk about all the "variety" in the game right now and I see nothing on the horizon to bring back Madboyz, Boarboyz, clan variations, Skarboyz, Cyborks, etc. As much as people love to talk about Orks "getting stuff" in the latest codex (ooo, Orkanauts which rarely see the battlefield and Mek Guns that are bloody expensive and just bringing back some variety that used to exist), they've by now lost a lot of access to Burnas, completely lost power weapons on Nobs that aren't klaws (despite being modeled with them), have no invulnerable save in combat (cybork bodies are pretty much a joke), and don't have the aforementioned units, or the kind of variety of weapons you'd see in their vehicles and weapons.

Screw the Eldar getting another Craftworld, give me Codex: Blood Axes already! I want my looted Imperial stuff. And Kult of Speed, and Feral Orks, and Freebooterz. I suppose giving the Eldar Exodites would be a fair tradeoff, especially as the Lizardmen took Jurassic Park into space.

Cutter

03-31-2015, 05:41 AM

Screw the Eldar getting another Craftworld, give me Codex: Blood Axes already! I want my looted Imperial stuff. And Kult of Speed, and Feral Orks, and Freebooterz. I suppose giving the Eldar Exodites would be a fair tradeoff, especially as the Lizardmen took Jurassic Park into space.

To be honest mate I think if you wait long enough they'll get there. If the Genestealer Cult actually happens I'll take it as a sign that anything is possible.

Mr Mystery

03-31-2015, 05:49 AM

Hmm...

Just a pondering for my tupenny's worth.....

Orks got Codex Ghaz, which in many ways is Codex Goffs - Ghaz being the living embodiment of Goff 'Ardness. No new models, as Goffs are more or less your atypical Orkyform - the base reading from which the other clans are derived by stressing one particular area of Orkyness.

Eldar? Codex Iyanden. No new models specifically, but new ways to play a Wraith Construct heavy army - coinciding with a Wraith Construct heavy main army release (and lord knows those Wraithguard needed plastification).

Now, haven't got many of the other spin off Codecies yet - I'm a bit behind in my collection, but I'm wondering if this 'Craftworld' Codex will be a specific Craftworld - perhaps as others have said Saim Hann - a way to cross promote with the rumoured new jetbikes, rather than be the recipient of new kits just for that army, and is reflective of the shape of things to come. Codex Nazdreg for instance would be a background book about Badmoon Warboss Nazdreg specifically (Orky clans would struggle to fill a book of their own on a one for one basis. Individual Warlords, much better!) which would present Bad Moon Warband rules.

Path Walker

03-31-2015, 06:02 AM

Yeah... It bothers me when people talk about all the "variety" in the game right now and I see nothing on the horizon to bring back Madboyz, Boarboyz, clan variations, Skarboyz, Cyborks, etc. As much as people love to talk about Orks "getting stuff" in the latest codex (ooo, Orkanauts which rarely see the battlefield and Mek Guns that are bloody expensive and just bringing back some variety that used to exist), they've by now lost a lot of access to Burnas, completely lost power weapons on Nobs that aren't klaws (despite being modeled with them), have no invulnerable save in combat (cybork bodies are pretty much a joke), and don't have the aforementioned units, or the kind of variety of weapons you'd see in their vehicles and weapons.

Screw the Eldar getting another Craftworld, give me Codex: Blood Axes already! I want my looted Imperial stuff. And Kult of Speed, and Feral Orks, and Freebooterz. I suppose giving the Eldar Exodites would be a fair tradeoff, especially as the Lizardmen took Jurassic Park into space.

Current Units not in 2nd Edition or Rogue Trader Ork Armies:
Nob squads, Trukks, Big Meks, Killa Kans, Mork/Gorkanaughts, Burnas, Stompas, Dakka Jet, Burna Bomma, Blitza Bomma, Tankbustas, Deffkoptas.

Units in the Rogue Trader/2nd Ed books not currently available:

Ork Genestealer Hybrids (1 model), Khorne Stormboyz (2 models), Madboyz, Boarboyz, Skarboyz (you could probably say these were Nobz and remove them from both lists as they're similar fluffwise)

So, we have 3 models, a daft unit no one used because it was utterly silly in an army of silliness and Boarboyz, which, again, no one liked at the time because they were anachronistic.

List wise, what can't you build? Kult of Speed, take all bikes and boyz in trukks, throw in some Buggies, same as it ever was.
Stormboyz armies can use the Vulcha Squad formation, Mek/walker armys have Formations and a current FW list, you can use Flash Gitz and the Badrukk formation to make a more flavoured Freeboota army than the one in the book, which just had Boyz.

Feral Orks were only a playable army with a 3rd edition White Dwarf list and was supposed to represent Feral Orks pushed into battle by more , barely used at the time, but if you wanted to do it, I'd use Grot rules for Feral Boyz, Grot Blastas are about as effective as an Ork bow/thrown rock would be.

Blood Axes? Finkin' Cap Warboss, Red Skull Kommandos Formation, Kommandos, Boyz, Looted Wagons.

List of Klan variations in any edition of Codex Orks:

1. Erm
2. Nope

Moaning that Orks have less variety is either pathetic whining or ignorance.

Defenestratus

03-31-2015, 06:24 AM

Orks have polluted my pristine thread about Eldar. Must purge with fire.

Codex Eldar seems to be missing in hardback form from the website. Not good.

40kGamer

03-31-2015, 06:29 AM

Orks have polluted my pristine thread about Eldar. Must purge with fire.

Codex Eldar seems to be missing in hardback form from the website. Not good.

Damn. I really don't want a waste of life codex rewrite after less than two years. Still hoping for a new supplement.

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-31-2015, 06:33 AM

Orks have polluted my pristine thread about Eldar. Must purge with fire.

Codex Eldar seems to be missing in hardback form from the website. Not good.

Is it not possible that the print-run ran out? I mean, would they not remove the digital and small-format too if they were preparing for a whole new codex?

While I don't play Eldar, I'd be quite annoyed if my codex was invalidated after less than 2 years.

Charon

03-31-2015, 06:37 AM

Doesn't scare me too much... I have gone through DE...
And if the Harlequins are any indication, Bladestorm should stay the same for alle Weapons while Holofields get better.
Might also be an opportunity to clean up the outdated PSI potential and getting some formations.
Judging by the last codices, it can't be worse than DE.

40kGamer

03-31-2015, 06:43 AM

Orks have polluted my pristine thread about Eldar. Must purge with fire.

Orks pollute everything. :p

eldargal

03-31-2015, 06:45 AM

Kirsten

03-31-2015, 06:49 AM

it is odd that we are getting rumours of Eldar, Tau, and Marine books. I love my Tau and Marine books, don't want new ones particularly. it could perhaps be a change in presentation rather than rules, or adding in formations and so on like the latest books have, without changing much in the way of points, rules etc.

40kGamer

03-31-2015, 06:57 AM

Probably just out of print. Wouldn't necessarily object to a new codex if it fixed problems with the current one without replacing them with more, but I would much rather prefer a new Craftworld supplement.

I could live with that. Especially if a new codex makes it plausible to use Banshees and Falcons. I don't really care what they do with the much hated Serpents and WraithKnights as I barely use them in lists anyhow.

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-31-2015, 07:07 AM

Kirsten

03-31-2015, 07:08 AM

pretty much yeah

Defenestratus

03-31-2015, 07:34 AM

Probably just out of print. Wouldn't necessarily object to a new codex if it fixed problems with the current one without replacing them with more, but I would much rather prefer a new Craftworld supplement.

Usually when something is out of stock it shows up with a button that says something like "Tell me when its available".

There's just no entry at all.

And if the Harlequins are any indication, Bladestorm should stay the same for alle Weapons while Holofields get better.

Holofields are NOT better in the harlequin codex. They're worse by a country mile. Bladestorm for the most part is inconsequential to me. We could lose it tomorrow and I would be not that sad. What they're going to do is make battle focus a power you only get when you take a certain formation combo. Farseers ML2, Warlocks brotherhood of psykers, warp spiders back to jump troops, and holofields getting the aforementioned nerf stick (I wish they'd work like titan holofields). No changes to falcons, banshees, scorpions or wraith constructs.

Cutter

03-31-2015, 07:54 AM

There's always this...

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Codex-Eldar-Small-Format

Erik Setzer

03-31-2015, 08:18 AM

Orks got Codex Ghaz, which in many ways is Codex Goffs - Ghaz being the living embodiment of Goff 'Ardness. No new models, as Goffs are more or less your atypical Orkyform - the base reading from which the other clans are derived by stressing one particular area of Orkyness.

Not really. Ghazghkull *is* a Goff warboss, but he leads a multi-clan Waaagh!. The detachment actually more represents the concept of a more experienced (i.e. more Nobz and specialized mobs with Elites) warband that utilizes specific technological tricks (telllyporta) to go to war. The formations in the book were very generic Ork formations. Basically, the book was meant to be an expansion of Codex: Orks, not really a different way to run Orks.

A Goff codex would be more like Khorne Daemonkin, with restrictions on certain units but also add some options (i.e. Skarboyz).

I might just try my hand at making unofficial Ork supplements (that reference the original books, of course, so I don't get threatened). Could be fun.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it not possible that the print-run ran out? I mean, would they not remove the digital and small-format too if they were preparing for a whole new codex?

While I don't play Eldar, I'd be quite annoyed if my codex was invalidated after less than 2 years.

No, they'd keep selling every bit of stock they have, rather than writing it off, even if they knew it'd be invalid in a week or two. The local GW store has codices on the wall right up to the moment they're replaced with the new releases (and the manager instructed to then destroy the old books, so someone can't grab them out of the dumpster). Even after the new Codex: Necrons was announced in WD, the old book wasn't pulled off the store until the new book came in the next week, because GW hopes they'll be able to sell all that product.

As for codices invalidated after less than two years... First off, welcome to Space Marines. Secondly, that happened with the entire rule set, and people were expected to cheer that GW is correcting things so rapidly that we can pay $85 for a new rulebook after less than two years. It's basically their modus operandi now.

- - - Updated - - -

I could live with that. Especially if a new codex makes it plausible to use Banshees and Falcons. I don't really care what they do with the much hated Serpents and WraithKnights as I barely use them in lists anyhow.

That's not happening until a new edition of 40K comes out. Assault pretty much relies on a beatstick unit like Thunderwolf Cavalry now.

The Falcon might get more love if the Wave Serpent stops being an unkillable version of the Falcon with similar armament.

deinol

03-31-2015, 08:31 AM

How I would fix the Eldar Codex:

1 Make the wave shield only shoot once. If you fire it, you lose the shield for the rest if the game.

2 Make Falcons assault vehicles

3 Give banshees plasma grenades

Charon

03-31-2015, 08:39 AM

Holofields are NOT better in the harlequin codex. They're worse by a country mile.

Most lists do not even utilize them. There is a lot of weapons ehich ignore them while there is next to nothing ignoring a PERMANENT 5++

Erik Setzer

03-31-2015, 08:58 AM

2 Make Falcons assault vehicles

While they're at it, make Battlewagons with 'Ard Cases Assault Vehicles. And Rhinos and Razorbacks. And other transports. Heck, vehicles designed as transports should be more likely to be Assault Vehicles than a grav-tank (which is literally called a grav-TANK, not an assault transport, hence the low number of models it can carry).

Defenestratus

03-31-2015, 09:06 AM

Most lists do not even utilize them. There is a lot of weapons ehich ignore them while there is next to nothing ignoring a PERMANENT 5++

That +1 to my cover save has saved my serpent's bacon more than once. If its ignored then thats just tough for me. I guess with the jink rule being what it is, it wouldn't be a big deal to go back to a 4+ cover save - but I still don't like the invulnerable save unless its a 4++.

While they're at it, make Battlewagons with 'Ard Cases Assault Vehicles. And Rhinos and Razorbacks. And other transports. Heck, vehicles designed as transports should be more likely to be Assault Vehicles than a grav-tank (which is literally called a grav-TANK, not an assault transport, hence the low number of models it can carry).

Giving the falcon the assault rule would actually give players a reason to take it over the serpent. Thats assuming that the serpent is nerfed as well. The model itself has tons of heavy weapons on it so its not going to relinquish its role as a MBT anytime soon.

40kGamer

03-31-2015, 09:09 AM

I'm totally on board with holo-fields going to 5++ if it happens. It really is better than +1 to cover since it works in Close assault as well as Range and half the shooty lists in the game don't simply bypass it!

deinol

03-31-2015, 09:26 AM

While they're at it, make Battlewagons with 'Ard Cases Assault Vehicles. And Rhinos and Razorbacks. And other transports. Heck, vehicles designed as transports should be more likely to be Assault Vehicles than a grav-tank (which is literally called a grav-TANK, not an assault transport, hence the low number of models it can carry).

Sorry, I don't see everything needing to be an assault vehicle. If you want Falcons to be a tank role, then I'll take a new Eldar assault vehicle. I doubt you want Wave Serpents to be assault vehicles.

Marines may only have one assault vehicle, but they have drop pods which are the best transport in the game. And orks can jump out of open topped battle wagons.

Erik Setzer

03-31-2015, 10:51 AM

Sorry, I don't see everything needing to be an assault vehicle. If you want Falcons to be a tank role, then I'll take a new Eldar assault vehicle. I doubt you want Wave Serpents to be assault vehicles.

Marines may only have one assault vehicle, but they have drop pods which are the best transport in the game. And orks can jump out of open topped battle wagons.

Hmm, sure, you go ahead and take allied Raiders, and use those to drop your Banshees out of. Enjoy the open-topped nature.

You guys want to take a TANK and give it "Assault Vehicle" to try to boost your units. No. That's never been the Falcon's role. It shouldn't get that rule added. Nor should the Wave Serpent, as it's an armored vehicle that has to drop to the ground and unload troops out the rear. Does it suck that you can't charge when you get out? Congratulations! Welcome to modern 40K. Don't like it? Try to get the vehicle rules changed, don't just lobby for a change that makes no sense in the fluff just because it benefits your army. And people still won't take it when a Wave Serpent carries more models and has better firepower.

The Wave Serpent needs some nerfs to its defense (not too much there, though) and offensive (a lot) capabilities to turn it back into the transport it's meant to be. It'll still be tougher than a Rhino, have more firepower, and be faster and better able to get around the battlefield. Sure, you can't assault out of it, but so what? Until assault is fixed, no one's going to assault with Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions anyway. Well, maybe against IG, but why bother when you can shoot them more effectively?

If Falcons get Assault Vehicle, then Battlewagons with 'Ard Cases should definitely get it, and Rhinos should get it as well. There's no argument you can make against those that wouldn't apply ten times more to a Falcon.

Defenestratus

03-31-2015, 11:06 AM

If Falcons get Assault Vehicle, then Battlewagons with 'Ard Cases should definitely get it, and Rhinos should get it as well. There's no argument you can make against those that wouldn't apply ten times more to a Falcon.

Rhinos shouldn't get assault vehicle because SM's already have two assault vehicles available to them. There, thats settled. What is up with this marine relativism anyways? Why should a rule that applies to a falcon apply to a rhino anyways? What the hell are you talking about? I don't follow your logic at all.

You're saying that the falcon shouldn't get the assault vehicle rule because its ... a tank? The recommendation to buy a DE vehicle for my banshees is laughable and doesn't even merit a response.

Assault isn't going to be "fixed" in any meaningful way. Its obvious that the rules designers wanted it to be difficult to assault out of vehicles and they bestowed the ability to assault out of vehicles to certain units for every faction where assault is actually a thing you want to do. The Eldar book doesn't have that ability for some reason. Its certainly not because the units being delivered are too strong and don't warrant protection. Its not the only reason why Eldar assault doesn't exist in a meaningful way, but its a contributing factor.

deinol

03-31-2015, 12:09 PM

Wait, what's wrong with striking scorpions? I've been quite happy with their performance on the battlefield.

Defenestratus

03-31-2015, 12:53 PM

Wait, what's wrong with striking scorpions? I've been quite happy with their performance on the battlefield.

Well, they're probably the worst "specialized CC unit" in the game outside of the the poor banshees of course (an honor formerly held by flayed ones). Against anything thats more than a space marine in combat they're woefully outmatched and unfortunately are nothing more than an exarch delivery mechanism. Unfortunately, I really don't know how to fix them either. Their problem is mostly that they're not usually doing enough wounds to survive the blowback from a dedicated assault unit. They also have a delivery issue but we have covered that already in this thread.

StingrayP226

03-31-2015, 01:13 PM

I would like to see the Banshees get an ability to simulate their scream (IE namesakes) that debuffs enemies/"buffs themselves" on the charge... and a worthwhile debuff that makes Banshees scary when they assault certain targets. Maybe an invulnerability save against Overwatch, Banshees strike first (terrain does matter), and Enemy WS reduced. Make the Striking Scorpions more of the main line melee for Eldar while Banshees are more of an alpha strike.

Just a thought... Of coarse not suggesting Eldar become Melee gods just give their melee something meaningful...

Charon

03-31-2015, 01:50 PM

It'll still be tougher than a Rhino, have more firepower, and be faster and better able to get around the battlefield.

And is nearly 3 times as expensive... what do you want to tell us?

ShadowcatX

03-31-2015, 01:50 PM

The problem with Banshees, even if they get a formation that gives them +1 WS, +1 S, and +1 Attack, then they're basically death cult assassins and we know how popular those are.

Defenestratus

03-31-2015, 01:54 PM

The problem with Banshees, even if they get a formation that gives them +1 WS, +1 S, and +1 Attack, then they're basically death cult assassins and we know how popular those are.

At a reasonable ppm I'd eat those up.

deinol

03-31-2015, 02:13 PM

Well, they're probably the worst "specialized CC unit" in the game outside of the the poor banshees of course (an honor formerly held by flayed ones). Against anything thats more than a space marine in combat they're woefully outmatched and unfortunately are nothing more than an exarch delivery mechanism. Unfortunately, I really don't know how to fix them either. Their problem is mostly that they're not usually doing enough wounds to survive the blowback from a dedicated assault unit. They also have a delivery issue but we have covered that already in this thread.

I guess I just use them to threaten troops (infiltrate helps a lot) and durably (for Eldar) grab objectives. Occasionally tank hunting with the exarch.

I tend to shoot the other guys dedicated assault, and charge weaker targets.

Of course, now that I have a harlequin book, I haven't had spare points for scorpions. Love those Star Weavers.

Erik Setzer

03-31-2015, 02:35 PM

Hmm. So you don't want a light transport which gives you Assault Vehicle... but you'd tell Orks they should be happy to have them.

Can't see why a dedicated transport vehicle designed for delivering guys into combat should be an Assault Vehicle if a tank that happens to be able to carry a handful of people should be able to. (Heck, even the Orkanauts aren't Assault Vehicles. And they literally stomp into the middle of the enemy army to do their business, so what the heck else are the models inside supposed to be for?)

So, basically, there's Eldar players wanting an upgrade that makes absolutely zero sense, and they can't even defend the idea (because it makes no bloody sense, which they'll admit if you sub in another army).

This is why we can't have nice things, kids.

Personally, I'd rather all transports go back to being "assault vehicles." I'd also prefer for assault to mean something.

But yeah, Eldar players? You can cry a river, but it won't make me feel bad for you. I play an army that was pushed to be assault, but now has no invulnerable save in combat, and no power weapons except claws (striking last) for characters. The only unit with "power weapons" (Burna Boyz) cost 16 points per model, with no armor, so they're expensive and die easily. Orks have a choice of either lightly armored open-topped vehicles or not being able to assault. The Orkanaut has a six model transport capacity, is designed for getting in close, but isn't an Assault vehicle. We don't have bright lances, starcannons, shuriken weapons, haywire, etc., etc., ad nauseum, to make up for that stuff, either. So I'm not about to feel bad for you.

Maybe drop the Falcon points a touch (though probably not), but preferably just fix the bloody Wave Serpent so it's not got the firepower of a battle tank.

Charon

03-31-2015, 02:42 PM

Hmm. So you don't want a light transport which gives you Assault Vehicle... but you'd tell Orks they should be happy to have them.

Dark Eldar are happy with theirs too...
I bet even Eldar would be happy with it IF IT WAS IN THEIR CODEX AND THEY DID NOT NEED TO ALLY.
Giving a single Raider to Eldar costs as much as a LANDRAIDER.

but preferably just fix the bloody Wave Serpent so it's not got the firepower of a battle tank.

While costing as much as a battle tank...

Defenestratus

03-31-2015, 02:42 PM

Hmm. So you don't want a light transport which gives you Assault Vehicle... but you'd tell Orks they should be happy to have them.
<not reading rest of post because it doesn't address the issue>

I don't want a *RAIDER* because I don't want to take DE allies. It has nothing to do with CAD, effectiveness, or anything else. If there was an Eldar version of the raider I'd gladly take it without hesitation. I don't like DE. I don't like their aesthetic. I don't like their fluff. I don't like their models, and perhaps my most hated model is the raider. So I don't want to take the assault vehicle that I legally can because its not part of my f*cking army. Plus, if I'm allying, why the hell would I ally with DE for close assault support? There are much better allies out there to fill that role - like terminators in a Stormfang/Raven/FW Ram thingie.

So, basically, there's Eldar players wanting an upgrade that makes absolutely zero sense, and they can't even defend the idea (because it makes no bloody sense, which they'll admit if you sub in another army).

It makes perfect sense. Eldar are an endangered species who value each single individual above that of entire planets of aliens... they have the most advanced technology in the galaxy and have been around the longest, yet their tanks aren't capable of propelling their warrior into combat? Makes a whole lot of sense, fluff wise, to have a vehicle that could protect their deadliest close combat warriors while delivering them to where they're needed the most. Hell, the Eldar army is built off of synergy between units - unfortunately there's no synergy to be had that will absolve the banshees of being made of paper mache.

Plus, our tanks aren't even comparable to rhinos. They're more in line with the cost of a predator thats been upgraded, but lets not stop comparing apples to oranges.

deinol

03-31-2015, 02:45 PM

Maybe drop the Falcon points a touch (though probably not), but preferably just fix the bloody Wave Serpent so it's not got the firepower of a battle tank.

You saw the first point in my suggestions, right?

I'm ok with giving Eldar a new vehicle to serve as an assault vehicle, equivalent to the Raider. But they need some assault vehicle option, and my suggestion was a way to address that without adding new kits. Maybe something like a corsair raider.

Haighus

03-31-2015, 02:58 PM

I liked the idea that cropped up around the time of the last Codex coming out (I think) of Falcons having (or possibly being upgraded with) a Webway assault portal, giving the Falcon the Assault Vehicle rule with a fluffy portal. The reasoning for not giving this to Wave Serpents would be that the Serpent shield takes up too much energy use for both systems to be mounted (in my mind).

Charon

03-31-2015, 05:06 PM

The problem is that the Falcon never made a whole lot of sense.

Same chassis, similar weapon loadout for similar points, less transport space, heavy choice.
The saving grace was that the Serpent was overcosted by far and the heavy support section was not blessed with a lot of good units.

Falcon was actually good in 2nd edition.
But since then the "we got rules and now we make models" became a "we have these 20 years old models and now we are creating rules arond the things in the sprue".
That offers a whole lot of problems. Grenades for Banshees? Not on the model -> can't be in the rules.

daboarder

03-31-2015, 07:13 PM

deinol

04-01-2015, 12:14 AM

But since then the "we got rules and now we make models" became a "we have these 20 years old models and now we are creating rules arond the things in the sprue".
That offers a whole lot of problems. Grenades for Banshees? Not on the model -> can't be in the rules.

Um, if not having grenades shown on the model was the problem, then how did Striking Scorpions get grenades?

Edit: Ok, maybe my models are all old. My striking scorpions don't have grenades, but I guess the newer models do.

Charon

04-01-2015, 12:59 AM

They newer ones indeed have them.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Eldar-Striking-Scorpions

Cutter

04-01-2015, 01:05 AM

yeah man, I'd block him too, but you've got to jump on those things before they become the latest revisionist history argument that every apologist posts ad nauseam.

Thanks DB, now there's coffee all over my monitor...

:p

Path Walker

04-01-2015, 01:57 AM

yeah man, I'd block him too, but you've got to jump on those things before they become the latest revisionist history argument that every apologist posts ad nauseam.

I don't think you know what any of those words means.

daboarder

04-01-2015, 05:47 AM

I don't think you know what any of those words means.

And I dont think you're actually literate.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks DB, now there's coffee all over my monitor...

:p

well at least someone's getting something outta this ;)

40kGamer

04-01-2015, 06:41 AM

They newer ones indeed have them.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Eldar-Striking-Scorpions

Grenades used to be excluded from the WYSIWYG ruling. Has that changed in the recent editions?

Arkhan Land

04-01-2015, 07:04 AM

i want to think even the last tournament of skulls said you can assume most smaller wargear items can be put into a pouch/bandolier

Defenestratus

04-01-2015, 01:17 PM

Iyanden supplement is unavailable.

Natfka's source is "110%" sure of a complete Codex Eldar release in 2-3 weeks. There's also a new BL Eldar book being released.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ogn6Pj84g2U/VRqdLFrpCqI/AAAAAAABc6Y/G0GyZ6hXuHo/s1600/CBbCIBaUYAAspwV.jpg

(My friend Regnir says - "I'm sure it's just about him chopping fools in two and then losing out in the end in a battle against space marines")

I'll be shocked.

Might as well put together my predictions then for a completely new codex.

1) Wave Serpent shield goes away completely
2) Farseers become ML2
3) Warlocks become brotherhood of psykers at collective ML1
4) Wraithknights increase in cost 100pts. CCW becomes Str D and become gargantuan creatures and LoW.
5) Battle focus is removed as a special rule and only given to the Biel-Tan formation
6) 10% to 20% point increase on all skimmer tanks.
7) Avatars get 4++ save back
8) Warp Spiders turn back into jump infantry
9) Warlocks are able to join units other than just guardians
10) Crimson Hunter gets some kind of defensive boost
11) Hemlock is still an unappreciated psycho flyer
13) Banshee's mask gives benefits of grenades (if they don't then I give up on GW)
14) PL's still overcosted for what they do
15) <one wishlist item - indulge me> Swooping hawks can assault flyers
16) All wraithweapons dropped in strength. Wraithcannons str8, HWC str9, D-scythe str 3.

Asymmetrical Xeno

04-01-2015, 02:00 PM

I really hope they get plastic aspect warriors if this release happens - Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers and Banshee's and I might be tempted to get back into Eldar.

daboarder

04-01-2015, 02:17 PM

Well this will be interesting to see how the supps hold up through a codex change. Will make a bug difference about whether i actually buy anymore

Charon

04-01-2015, 02:27 PM

Which supps? Iyanden has been pulled from the online store.

Deadlift

04-01-2015, 02:38 PM

The Iyanden codex is less than 2 years old, I know things need updating but with the money spent on building armies and buying Codexes and rule books. That's a bit of a joke if you ask me.

40kGamer

04-01-2015, 03:02 PM

The Iyanden codex is less than 2 years old, I know things need updating but with the money spent on building armies and buying Codexes and rule books. That's a bit of a joke if you ask me.

I'm pretty miffed they're doing a codex rewrite in under 2 years. If they chuck the supps too I'll be taking a much deserved break from giving a rat's furry ***.

Defenestratus

04-01-2015, 03:07 PM

Feel bad for all the chumpspeople that bought the limited editions.

I understand that they're collector's items but c'mon. That lifespan is pretty short.

DrBored

04-01-2015, 03:10 PM

All of the Eldar Codices are totally gone from the GW site.

Either Eldar are coming in hot, or this is an elaborate April Fools from the GW web devs.

Asymmetrical Xeno

04-01-2015, 03:16 PM

Wow, it does really seem quite possible at this point. i'm quite surprised. I would of thought they would of just done a release akin to that tyranid one last year and just had updated rules in a campaign book or something - but it really looks like they might get a whole new codex. I still clearly remember the current/last one like it was yesterday.

I wonder if they will remove Harlequins now they are their own "army" ?

40kGamer

04-01-2015, 03:18 PM

Feel bad for all the chumpspeople that bought the limited editions.

I understand that they're collector's items but c'mon. That lifespan is pretty short.

No doubt. One would expect ~5 years before a full rewrite.

Thaldin

04-01-2015, 03:22 PM

Damn if this is the case... ARGH... C'mon April Fools Joke *hopes hopes hopes* I don't want a new Codex that soon... Thankfully I didn't buy the collector's edition. (Nor will I ever buy one if this is how it will be going.... ever)

40kGamer

04-01-2015, 03:28 PM

Might as well put together my predictions then for a completely new codex.

1) Wave Serpent shield goes away completely

It may become a one use item but stay available as a defensive shield.

2) Farseers become ML2
3) Warlocks become brotherhood of psykers at collective ML1

Sucks, but likely... especially the Warlock brotherhood thingy.

4) Wraithknights increase in cost 100pts. CCW becomes Str D and become gargantuan creatures and LoW.

Kit sales have probably maxed so no need for WraithKnight to shine anymore.

5) Battle focus is removed as a special rule and only given to the Biel-Tan formation

It's a characterful part of the army so why not take it away. :p

6) 10% to 20% point increase on all skimmer tanks.
7) Avatars get 4++ save back

I don't see these two. Skimmers aren't that special and they seem to shy away from the 4++ on a MC.

8) Warp Spiders turn back into jump infantry
9) Warlocks are able to join units other than just guardians
10) Crimson Hunter gets some kind of defensive boost
11) Hemlock is still an unappreciated psycho flyer

All very possible.

13) Banshee's mask gives benefits of grenades (if they don't then I give up on GW)

Might as well dream.

14) PL's still overcosted for what they do

A given.

15) <one wishlist item - indulge me> Swooping hawks can assault flyers

I was hoping for this last edition... I just hope they keep their haywire grenades.

16) All wraithweapons dropped in strength. Wraithcannons str8, HWC str9, D-scythe str 3.

Unless there's a corresponding drop in points let's hope not.

Don't forget:

17) Holofields goto 5++ (basically a given)

Defenestratus

04-01-2015, 03:50 PM

DrBored

04-01-2015, 03:57 PM

URL Redirects are live:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Codex-Craftworlds-ENG
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Eldar-Windriders
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Eldar-Shining-Spears

And one for an autarch.

Looks like its called:

Codex Eldar: Craftworlds

Interesting. I know we have Codex Eldar: Harlequins.

Even though there's no rumor support for this, we might get Codex Eldar: Exodites, but that's just wishlisting.

Defenestratus

04-01-2015, 04:12 PM

NEW PLASTIC AVATAR URL

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Eldar-Avatar

For reference here's the old finecast URL:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Eldar-Avatar-of-Khaine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS1cLOIxsQ8&feature=youtu.be&t=27

Houghten

04-01-2015, 04:19 PM

Feel bad for all the chumpspeople that bought the limited editions.

I understand that they're collector's items but c'mon. That lifespan is pretty short.

Meh, I regret the 6th edition main rulebook, but I refuse to feel bad about the Eldar and Iyanden limited editions. I bought them entirely for the sake of the pretty runic covers and those covers remain just as pretty and runic. Hell, I can transfer them to the new books, at the cost of slightly confusing my opponents (so, win-win really).

Mind you, that was back in the good ol' days when a Limited Edition Codex cost less than twice as much as the Regular Edition.

DrBored

04-01-2015, 04:24 PM

AW SNAP NEW AVATAR!!

This is exciting times. I hope it's huge.

Defenestratus

04-01-2015, 04:25 PM

aw snap new avatar!!

This is exciting times. I hope it's huge.

bah ninja'd on my ninja!

Lets take a guess on what gets the LoW treatment? No doubt the avatar....

daboarder

04-01-2015, 04:28 PM

Feel bad for all the chumpspeople that bought the limited editions.

I understand that they're collector's items but c'mon. That lifespan is pretty short.

You know...as someone who bought the LEs i dont mind really. The books are fantastic and the background much better than the ward stuff was. I dont intend to continue once they replace them though so the sooner GW replaces codexes the sooner they atart not getting ANY of my money

Charon

04-01-2015, 04:31 PM

bah ninja'd on my ninja!

Lets take a guess on what gets the LoW treatment? No doubt the avatar....

Would not really mind that. Beeing a plastic model could also mean different weapons (Spear?) and options.

Defenestratus

04-01-2015, 04:40 PM

Would not really mind that. Beeing a plastic model could also mean different weapons (Spear?) and options.

Hoping its Bloodthirster sized... or close to it.

Charon

04-01-2015, 05:53 PM

Torn on this one... as our beloved Avatar is no FMC, beeing big is not really a benefit. On the other hand... sure why not... it is not seeing much use anyways.

Deadlift

04-01-2015, 06:00 PM

You know...as someone who bought the LEs i dont mind really. The books are fantastic and the background much better than the ward stuff was. I dont intend to continue once they replace them though so the sooner GW replaces codexes the sooner they atart not getting ANY of my money

I'm thinking GWs release schedule is now no longer geared at getting new players in, but getting current players to expand on their existing armies. Ie spend more. Imagine if your codex is updated every two years and every two years you have the option to buy some new or improved plastic kits and codex, we know most of us won't resist. Factor in most players have more than one army too. I used to listen to people saying that GW weren't interested in existing players because they generally spent less than someone getting into the hobby. Is this release schedule a turnaround on that view ? Interesting times ahead.
A new Avatar would be nice to paint.

DrBored

04-01-2015, 07:10 PM

Torn on this one... as our beloved Avatar is no FMC, beeing big is not really a benefit. On the other hand... sure why not... it is not seeing much use anyways.

What if they updated the Avatar to BE a FMC?

That'd be totally silly.

There's a lot of art and material based on that old Avatar sculpt. It'll be interesting to see how far they go with the updating of it. Surely the proportions will be better, but what other design elements might they change?

Charon

04-01-2015, 07:36 PM

Why would they change design elements? For an Avatar done right you just have to look at the Forgeworld one.

DrBored

04-01-2015, 09:48 PM

Why would they change design elements? For an Avatar done right you just have to look at the Forgeworld one.

Well yeah, logically, but compare the Forgeworld Bloodthirster to the GW one, and to the old GW one. Things change. Even though you look at it and you're like 'Oh yeah, that's definitely a Bloodthirster', there's a lot of nuance and change in detail, not just in size.

I feel a similar thing will happen to the Avatar. You look at it, and it'll look like the Avatar, but it won't look like the FW one, and it definitely won't look like the old GW one.

daboarder

04-01-2015, 11:34 PM

a flying avatar wouldnt be exactly great, it'd have all the problems every other Melee FMC has, namely the stupid speed change (because 6th didnt quite cripple ALL assault platforms)

helline9

04-02-2015, 01:00 AM

To be honest mate I think if you wait long enough they'll get there. If the Genestealer Cult actually happens I'll take it as a sign that anything is possible.

....even a decent sisters codex. :P

Mr Mystery

04-02-2015, 01:17 AM

What I'd like from a new Avatar - a less statuesque pose.

I mean, I know it's a big metal dude up and about, so a certain feel is unavoidable. But how about a more dynamic, Eldaresque pose? They can do a lot more with plastic these days, far more than you can with resin or metal on large models.

Cutter

04-02-2015, 01:26 AM

....even a decent sisters codex. :P

Yep.

Charon

04-02-2015, 04:33 AM

Waiting for the inevitable change to Seers and Warlocks "can no longer get a Jetbike" as there never was a model and it doesn't look like one is in the making.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

04-02-2015, 04:37 AM

Waiting for the inevitable change to Seers and Warlocks "can no longer get a Jetbike" as there never was a model and it doesn't look like one is in the making.Part of me says "be hopeful", but then I remember that Archons also lost Jetbikes in the Dark Eldar reboot.

Then again, stuff like Iron Priests buying Thunderwolves and Techmarines on bikes has stuck around, right?

Charon

04-02-2015, 05:02 AM

Then again, stuff like Iron Priests buying Thunderwolves and Techmarines on bikes has stuck around, right?

Thats marines... do not ever compare anything to space marines.

Path Walker

04-02-2015, 05:20 AM

Jetbikes never seemed like something a Farseer would be into, not very dignified, plus most Craftworld Eldar as suspicious of those riding jetbikes, too much like fun.

Mr Mystery

04-02-2015, 05:35 AM

See, I'm intrigued by the design of the Harlequin jetbikes.

They're reminiscent of the old 2nd Ed Vyper option of a fighting platform - which if my admittedly hazy memory recalls, pre-dates Farseers having their own individual mounts - they would instead deploy on the Vyper Platform as a transport?

I'd love to see those adapted for Farseers and Warlocks - given their unique profile, would also prevent the 'legitimate' use of rubbishy knock off bits kits by the like of ParasiteHouse, as conversion kits for the existing Jetbike kit wouldn't give the same profile, preventing it being WYSIWYG.

Then again, any update to the existing Jetbike could achieve exactly the same thing. Tricksy to sell your ropey knock off when the tired old kit it's meant to be used on is no longer available.....

Path Walker

04-02-2015, 05:41 AM

Tonight, I will grab both the 2nd ed codex and the WD issue when the Vyper was released and let you know!

Mr Mystery

04-02-2015, 05:53 AM

I'm definitely right about the Fighting Platform, because I pinched that idea for a Vyper Mounted Jetbike Farseer when I ran Saim Hann under Codex Craftworld.

It's just whether or not the plain old jetbike was another option in 2nd Ed.

helline9

04-02-2015, 06:11 AM

my thoughts (also posted on another thread);
-i like the idea that firing the Serpent shield is; all enemy models within 6" of the Wave serpent are hit with strength 1 Ap- with Blind, firing the Serpent shield also grants the Wave serpent the 'Assault vehicle' and 'Frag assault launcher' rules till end of turn.
-Make Falcon a dedicated transport.

-Ranger long rifle; change Heavy 1 to Salvo 1/2.
-Howling banshees: replace Acrobatic with Furious Charge. Banshee’s masks grant Hammer of Wrath and Fear
when they charge.
-Change Death-spinner from Assault 2 to Template.
Remove the 'removes a model on a double' from Warp jump generators. Warp spiders have Scout instead of Hit & Run.
-Make Vipers cheaper and able to join Windrider squads like marine attack bikes.
-make Dark reapers cheaper.

I would love to see (but it wont happen); up to 2 Webway Gates can be bought as one Eldar fortification; each Webway Gate has Infiltrate, grants Shroud to Eldar within 6" (including itself) and counts as an additional Eldar table edge for reserves/ retreats etc. (any eldar unit can treat any webway gate as an entry or exit point for the game)

Defenestratus

04-02-2015, 06:25 AM

my thoughts (also posted on another thread);
-i like the idea that firing the Serpent shield is; all enemy models within 6" of the front of the Wave serpent are hit with strength 1 Ap- with Blind, firing the Serpent shield also grants the Wave serpent the 'Assault vehicle' and 'Frag assault launcher' rules till end of turn.
-Make Falcon a dedicated transport.

-Ranger long rifle; change Heavy 1 to Salvo 1/2.
-Howling banshees: replace Acrobatic with Furious Charge. Banshee’s masks grant Hammer of Wrath and Fear
when they charge.
-Change Death-spinner from Assault 2 to Template.
Remove the 'removes a model on a double' from Warp jump generators. Warp spiders have Scout instead of Hit & Run.
-Make Vipers cheaper and able to join Windrider squads like marine attack bikes.
-make Dark reapers cheaper.

Warp Spiders losing hit and run would be terrible. They have instantaneous warp transport devices... they should be able to get out of combat at the blink of an eye. So should anything with a jetbike IMO but .. balance.

The other changes I don't have a problem with except how would an assault wave serpent work with its hatch in the back if it had to fire its shield forwards. Otherwise I love the idea.

Just had a terrifying thought. What if the farseer and warlocks get the archon treatment with regards to jetbikes?

Its going to rain Def tears if they get rid of the mounted council - not because I took them all the time (I think I last took them in 6th edition) but because I have some beautifully converted and painted models for my flying council.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

04-02-2015, 06:30 AM

would also prevent the 'legitimate' use of rubbishy knock off bits kits by the like of ParasiteHouse, as conversion kits for the existing Jetbike kit wouldn't give the same profile, preventing it being WYSIWYG.It would also crap on the likely larger number of players who purchased Games-Workshop bits to convert Jetbike Farseers and Warlocks to use the options offered in the Eldar Codex. I feel like that's more important than a petty act of spite against a company that offers accessories.

Charon

04-02-2015, 06:46 AM

Defenestratus

04-02-2015, 06:57 AM

Not that it ever stopped them from doing it..
But I am pleased see nothing has changed with Mr. Mysteries "contribution" since I blocked him months ago.

Sadly I see that as pretty likely...

I wish GW would realize that this doesn't stop the studios from producing their own works. Hell, I've got resin jetbikes that I got because the existing jetbike models were terrible, and have been terrible for more than 15 years.

If the farseer on jetbike goes away, another model, like ghost miniatures warp spiders, will provide ample opportunity for the studios to offer an alternative to the terrible models that GW puts out. That being said, my mounted council is MOSTLY GW bits and I'll be distraught if they go away.

Charon

04-02-2015, 07:03 AM

Mine is old metal Warlocks/Seers, Jetbikes, BFG Eldar Resin Models and lots of Sculping... now that was a pain to create and a huge money investment and all GW stuff.
Sure way to piss on your customers :D

Defenestratus

04-02-2015, 07:03 AM

Tricksy to sell your ropey knock off when the tired old kit it's meant to be used on is no longer available.....

Knock off of what?

GW doesn't yet make a mounted farseer/warlock model.

eldargal

04-02-2015, 07:08 AM

Ravingbantha

04-02-2015, 07:14 AM

Currently there is no version of the Eldar Codex available on the US site, printed or digital. There is also no available jetbikes, however the avatar remains available for sale.

Deadlift

04-02-2015, 07:46 AM

If warlocks and Farseer were going to lose jetbikes I expect it would have happened last book.

I don't mind getting a new codex now, the old one while not at all bad was extremely disappointing in many ways.

Nope, it was Banshees. That's it. The rest of the codex was very usable. Obviously some units better than others but pretty much everything was either ok or great. "Old codex" the books less than two years old.

Erik Setzer

04-02-2015, 07:47 AM

It would also crap on the likely larger number of players who purchased Games-Workshop bits to convert Jetbike Farseers and Warlocks to use the options offered in the Eldar Codex. I feel like that's more important than a petty act of spite against a company that offers accessories.

Yeah, but seriously, screw those gamers, we have to teach someone a lesson for daring to oppose the legal might of Games Workshop!

GW has two options: Either make a model for the option, or take it out of the book. Nothing else stops someone like CH from making a new kit. Changing the model or removing the option would be a harmful action to plenty of players, but no one cares about the players, just protecting GW's bottom line. Heck, I'd be okay with the way the Farseer/Warlock is done changing if GW came out with a model *and* reasonably priced it (and I'd still gladly let people use their old models). But yeah, I'm not sure that's going to happen.

Kirsten

04-02-2015, 07:48 AM

everybody seems to be assuming this will replace the current book, but it might not. Don't forget the last craftworld book was supplementary to the main codex.

eldargal

04-02-2015, 07:54 AM

Nope, it was Banshees. That's it. The rest of the codex was very usable. Obviously some units better than others but pretty much everything was either ok or great. "Old codex" the books less than two years old.

Nope, no assault units were viable, it was basically shooty mech lists or go home, you could stretch it to shooty wraith armies but that was it.

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everybody seems to be assuming this will replace the current book, but it might not. Don't forget the last craftworld book was supplementary to the main codex.

Well the last codex was basically Codex: Craftworlds, I can't see how this could really be a supplement without 90% of it being exactly the same as the last book.

Kirsten

04-02-2015, 07:55 AM

unique formations and wargear for each one

Erik Setzer

04-02-2015, 07:55 AM

Well the last codex was basically Codex: Craftworlds, I can't see how this could really be a supplement without 90% of it being exactly the same as the last book.

Easy: Release formations and detachments, Warlord traits tables, and relics for the different craftworlds, and tell people to see the main Eldar codex for the unit rules and stuff. Kind of like how Codex: Craftworld Eldar supplemented Codex: Eldar in 3rd edition (only it actually did add new units).

Charon

04-02-2015, 07:59 AM

everybody seems to be assuming this will replace the current book, but it might not. Don't forget the last craftworld book was supplementary to the main codex.

And they took off the main codex + Iyanden supplement (including digital) from their website because... they ran out of digital copies?

Kirsten

04-02-2015, 08:00 AM

we have no idea why they took the stuff down, it is pure speculation.

Defenestratus

04-02-2015, 08:04 AM

And they took off the main codex + Iyanden supplement (including digital) from their website because... they ran out of digital copies?

Charon,

CLEARLY YOU'RE SPECULATING!

PERHAPS THERE WAS A VIRUS IN THE EPUB FILE AND THEY HAD TO GET RID OF IT!!!!!

Seriously, the digital edition is gone from BL's site too. There's no reason to literally erase those volumes from existence unless its going away.

Interestingly enough, if I go to the digital downloads section of my account on BL's website, I can still download the already purchased Codex. I think that would be rather daft if they had taken that ability away however.

Deadlift

04-02-2015, 08:05 AM

Nope, no assault units were viable, it was basically shooty mech lists or go home, you could stretch it to shooty wraith armies but that was it.

You've just described 7th ed, I liked the Avatar and Warpspiders, hell even wraith blades were ok. Sure the shooty units were better....but that's the same for most of the other Codexes...except maybe Khorne.

The digital version of Iyanden is still on iTunes, haven't checked for the codex.

Defenestratus

04-02-2015, 08:15 AM

You've just described 7th ed, I liked the Avatar and Warpspiders, hell even wraith blades were ok. Sure the shooty units were better....but that's the same for most of the other Codexes...except maybe Khorne.

Wraithblades were ok only as axes really due to the 4++ save you got with them - but they hardly ever made it to combat in any kind of volume to deliver Khaine's wrath. I run them but they're always the primary target, even when there are wraithknights on the board.

The Avatar is fine if you surround him with other threats of equal proportions. Wraithlords/knights work well for this but still... the avatar is arguably easier to kill than a wraithlord so its usually taken down first.

I think you'd see Avatars a lot more if they're part of a formation where they don't take up a HQ slot. Make him a LoW or create a decurion formation where he's able to be taken while not crippling your army's force multiplier enablers.

eldargal

04-02-2015, 08:17 AM

The fact it is a problem in other books doesn't negate it being a problem for the Eldar book. Eldar fare worse in assault than other armies as well due to relative fragility for a high price, they need to hit hard and kill what they assault or they die, and none of their assault units can do that, even wraithblades are relatively mediocre.

Deadlift

04-02-2015, 08:37 AM

But there has to be some frailty and weaknesses in the codex ? It certainly fits the eldar theme in comparison. Your thinking of the codex as a stand alone book, but surely it has to fit in with the other armies and have it's strengths and weaknesses to make it unique enough for a different style of gameplay. I still maintain it's one of my favorite current Codexes, if not my favourite and I don't think it needs replacing if that's what's happening. More supplements would be better. I'm going to be pretty pissed if my Iyanden and Eldar codex are made both obsolete in such a short space of time.

eldargal

04-02-2015, 08:49 AM

Their frailty and weakness is supposed to be their weakness, coupled with their expense, but the offset for that is they get the job done when used properly. At the moment we have some units which do it far too well, and a whole lot more which are simply not worth fielding and a few which are just mediocre. Like I said it is absolutely not a bad book, but it is very mixed in what is viable and overall was quite disappointing.

Charon

04-02-2015, 08:53 AM

we have no idea why they took the stuff down, it is pure speculation.

Why do we have to go through this nerly every single release when every release follows the same pattern....

But there has to be some frailty and weaknesses in the codex ? It certainly fits the eldar theme in comparison. Your thinking of the codex as a stand alone book, but surely it has to fit in with the other armies and have it's strengths and weaknesses to make it unique enough for a different style of gameplay. I still maintain it's one of my favorite current Codexes, if not my favourite and I don't think it needs replacing if that's what's happening. More supplements would be better. I'm going to be pretty pissed if my Iyanden and Eldar codex are made both obsolete in such a short space of time.

"frail and weak" is not a good theme.
Because in order to let "frail and weak" still be "strong" the amount of damage has to be absurd. And as you can't have an absurd amount of damage because people tend to cry if your units are cheap and do a lot of damage it leaves you with frail, weak and useless.

Just take a look at "good melee units". They are fast, durable and strong. If you cut one of these the unit tends to get medicore or bad.

Kirsten

04-02-2015, 09:02 AM

Why do we have to go through this nerly every single release when every release follows the same pattern....

what pattern? we don't see the same thing every time. we also don't know what 'codex craftworld eldar' will actually be. you are leaping to assumptions.

Deadlift

04-02-2015, 09:13 AM

Why do we have to go through this nerly every single release when every release follows the same pattern....

Personally for me because the book doesn't need replacing in this case, and maybe it won't be.

[/QUOTE] "frail and weak" is not a good theme. [/QUOTE]

To be fair I said "Some" weaknesses. The codex has units which are far from frail.

ShadowcatX

04-02-2015, 09:24 AM

Look at howling banshees stat line side by side a death cult assassin and as you do realize that people don't even play death cult assassins.

Charon

04-02-2015, 09:27 AM

Personally for me because the book doesn't need replacing in this case, and maybe it won't be.

As if GW ever cared of what "needs" to be done.
Moneygrab. Cause writing a FAQ/Errata just costs money.... this way you get your update and pay for it.

Deadlift

04-02-2015, 09:28 AM

As if GW ever cared of what "needs" to be done.
Moneygrab. Cause writing a FAQ/Errata just costs money.... this way you get your update and pay for it.

And that's what I object to :D
More reason to just paint what I like and play x-wing instead.

Erik Setzer

04-02-2015, 10:16 AM

Look at howling banshees stat line side by side a death cult assassin and as you do realize that people don't even play death cult assassins.

It's a problem with assault throughout the game. Unless you have a super assault unit (Thunderwolf Cavalry beefed up, Bloodcrushers with a Juggernaut Lord tooled up leading them, etc.), it's just not any good. You'll get chewed up getting there, and assuming you're able to get through one unit, you then have to get shot again a lot before you can assault another, even if the next unit in line is just an inch away.

Subs

04-02-2015, 12:46 PM

Assault is a very precise weapon for the CE, it's meant to knock a unit off a objective or clear an opening so you can get at the enemy HQ, Craftworld Eldar don't do 'lets just go mental and hit everything' (that's what Quins are for.) Personally I've had quite a lot of luck with Wraithblades and Scorpions but then I always combo my attacks so no unit goes into close combat unless their opposite unit has already been chewed up by a bit of HW fire and some blade storms.

Really hoping this is a details update like dropping the Quins and improving the Banshee's rather than a full rewrite although something tells me the Eldar are going to lose Eldrad and one or two other named characters and due to the amount of *****ing, rather than it actually being broken, the inevitable WS shield nerf (which I think will just drop in number of shots.) Don't think Seers are going to lose bikes because the bike models are obviously getting some love (could this be why we've seen the introduction of a two person bike?) or have their powers nerfed because that just undermines the idea of the Eldar.

Remember the days of Thorpe are over, the new development team actually want unique factions on the board, mainly because it sells more models if each faction really is characterful with it's own strengths and weaknesses and not just all the same.

Charon

04-02-2015, 01:12 PM

Assault is a very precise weapon for the CE, it's meant to knock a unit off a objective or clear an opening so you can get at the enemy HQ, Craftworld Eldar don't do 'lets just go mental and hit everything' (that's what Quins are for.) Personally I've had quite a lot of luck with Wraithblades and Scorpions but then I always combo my attacks so no unit goes into close combat unless their opposite unit has already been chewed up by a bit of HW fire and some blade storms.

My problem with this is: If I softened up a unit with bladestorms, why not just take another close ranged shooty unit to finish them off? The difference between 5 Scorpions and 5 Firedrakes is 25 points.
On average the scorpions will kill 2-3 marines if they assault, Fire dragons will roast around 3... without taking overwatch fire and getting hit back while beeing more flexible all game long and beeing able to ID T4 units(characters).
So yes, combo up is mandatory for melee units but also benefits other shooty units while they are not so dependent on it.

Knocking a unit off objectives always sounds nice in theory but most of the time units on objectives either do not run anyways, are tough or (and that happens a lot in the current meta) are scoring vehicles.

DrBored

04-02-2015, 05:32 PM

Bad news guys.

The redirect of 'eldar-avatar-with-spear' as it is on the FW site ALSO corrects to 'Eldar-Avatar-With-Spear'.

While this is great new evidence that FW is being migrated to the GW site, it doesn't bode well for a new plastic Avatar model.

Dang... Highly likely we're NOT getting a new plastic Avatar..

Defenestratus

04-02-2015, 05:59 PM

daboarder

04-02-2015, 08:27 PM

eh, at the rate GWs prices rise the FW kit is cheaper and likely better looking than a potential plastic would be anyway

DarkLink

04-02-2015, 09:08 PM

My problem with this is: If I softened up a unit with bladestorms, why not just take another close ranged shooty unit to finish them off? The difference between 5 Scorpions and 5 Firedrakes is 25 points.
On average the scorpions will kill 2-3 marines if they assault, Fire dragons will roast around 3... without taking overwatch fire and getting hit back while beeing more flexible all game long and beeing able to ID T4 units(characters).
So yes, combo up is mandatory for melee units but also benefits other shooty units while they are not so dependent on it.

Knocking a unit off objectives always sounds nice in theory but most of the time units on objectives either do not run anyways, are tough or (and that happens a lot in the current meta) are scoring vehicles.

There's a reason you never, ever see eldar assault units other than wraithknights in competitive lists.

Arkhan Land

04-02-2015, 10:24 PM

eh, at the rate GWs prices rise the FW kit is cheaper and likely better looking than a potential plastic would be anyway

yeah I was thinkn the same thing, I think the eldar already scored their "knight sized" kit with the wraithknight.

I think therell be a few new kits with this but I see it as being more of way to tie elements of force org to specific rules which in this case may be a cool way to ground more of the rules in fluff, similar to daemonkin but this also means probably pushing some not so great units simply so they can be included in a certain army for certain rules (like possessed in daemonkin).

as an example, Saim-Hann are going to be forced to take a unit of swooping hawks and a unit of shinning spears (which the latter they probably dont mind as much) because thats theyre fluff for most common shrine on their planet, etc. im sure the benefits will rule, probably something to make that armies mobility even better but there might also be unit restrictions, maybe taking serpents/bikes/DAs/Falcons/Etc from specific eldar craftworld arm builds.

I really hope this is what it is versus a full on Codex make-over. I dont play one of the big craftworlds so I would rather it be a non-mandatory update.

Cap'nSmurfs

04-03-2015, 12:31 PM

I imagine what you're thinking of is what it's going to be, Arkhan. I'd be surprised if it's a full redo, rather than just modifying some things (Wave Serpents, maybe), bringing it into line with Harlequins (will they drop out of the book?) and adding things that have come about since the last book, like detachments and formations.

It'll be interesting to see what moves around. And I really, really want new Jetbikes.

Defenestratus

04-04-2015, 08:34 AM

The lack of rumors about the content of upcoming releases is frustrating. Back in the halcyon days, we'd get bits and pieces of red meat to chew on while we anxiously picked our fingernails in nervous anticipation.

Now we get a pretty clear indication a couple weeks in advance whats coming but the only information we have is really about the new models - nothing about rules.

And why did GW have to put Eldar right after tax day? The IRS took away my gaming budget for the next 7 years in one single day :(

Cap'nSmurfs

04-04-2015, 11:07 AM

Perils of being a British company, I'm afraid. :)

40kGamer

04-04-2015, 11:18 AM

Mr Mystery

04-04-2015, 02:55 PM

Here in civilisation, my tax is deducted on a monthly basis as i earn it :p

Defenestratus

04-04-2015, 04:26 PM

I'm always miffed when I hand over everything I've earned for the first 4 months to the chuckleheads running the government.

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However if there is a new Jes Goodwin style jetbike kit I will find the $ to flesh out a squad. ;P

Like these?

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ul-OZI3qJ5I/VQWvAd5ELfI/AAAAAAAA1KE/FN6Jt5dzt70/w1610-h1195-no/IMG_20150315_111017.jpg

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Here in civilisation, my tax is deducted on a monthly basis as i earn it :p

Oh I could do that too, but why give the government an interest free loan when that money can be earning ME interest every year? Hell I practically pay for my 40k addiction with my "Fed's take" account. Its just depressing to see it all go away every April!!!

ShadowcatX

04-04-2015, 05:06 PM

Like these?

Are those the souldark bikes?

Defenestratus

04-04-2015, 05:10 PM

Are those the souldark bikes?

Mrs. Velard.

deinol

04-05-2015, 02:01 AM

If they don't make new bikes I'll probably use the new harlequin bikes for all my Eldar bike needs. Just replace the mask and they are perfect.

Houghten

04-05-2015, 02:27 AM

And the shuriken cannon, at least on 2/3 of them.

40kGamer

04-05-2015, 04:59 PM

Like these?

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ul-OZI3qJ5I/VQWvAd5ELfI/AAAAAAAA1KE/FN6Jt5dzt70/w1610-h1195-no/IMG_20150315_111017.jpg

Ohhh shiny! Those are really nice looking jetbikes! How have I not seen these before?

Oh I could do that too, but why give the government an interest free loan when that money can be earning ME interest every year? Hell I practically pay for my 40k addiction with my "Fed's take" account. Its just depressing to see it all go away every April!!!

Business owner here so there's no employer to withhold. It just never ceases to surprise me just how big the April check is every year. It truly is the sum of everything earned for the prior 3 months + some. Especially in the tax happy North where we have to pay the Federal, State and City taxes. Seems like the gaming community is always releasing a host of cool toys this time of year too! Puts a real strain on the old wallet! :p

I'm really not thrilled at Eldar getting a rewrite in under 2 years. That just seems ridiculous.... and if Tau and Marines both get hit with the reboot stick this year it'll just be too much.

Defenestratus

04-05-2015, 05:13 PM

Ohhh shiny! Those are really nice looking jetbikes! How have I not seen these before?

:D

I'm really not thrilled at Eldar getting a rewrite in under 2 years. That just seems ridiculous.... and if Tau and Marines both get hit with the reboot stick this year it'll just be too much.
[/quote]

Nightfury over on Faeit seems to think that it will be an addendum to the CE book - not a replacement. We'll see I guess as we'll probably start seeing leaks for it in a week or so.

eldargal

04-06-2015, 03:52 AM

That's such a weird idea though. Like I guess if you leave out all the general eldar race background stuff you could fit in 10 pages of background per Craftworld which is more than they get now but not exactly a huge amount. I'm mostly worried this is a sign we won't be getting more individual Craftworld supplements which would be a huge shame.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

04-06-2015, 06:00 AM

I guess I could get behind an update if it's taking the Eldar Codex up to the Space Marines standard; giving Chapters/Craftworlds rule-based representation within the main Codex.

Defenestratus

04-06-2015, 07:06 AM

40kGamer

04-06-2015, 07:07 AM

Sadly I do think that the day has come to bid adieu to the idea of a craftworld supplement.

Its a shame too.

I was really hoping all the major craftworlds would get the Iyanden treatment. :(

ShadowcatX

04-06-2015, 07:09 AM

Nightfury over on Faeit seems to think that it will be an addendum to the CE book - not a replacement. We'll see I guess as we'll probably start seeing leaks for it in a week or so.

If it was an addendum they wouldn't need to pull the standard codex (or Iyanden) off the website.

Defenestratus

04-06-2015, 07:11 AM

I was really hoping all the major craftworlds would get the Iyanden treatment. :(

I did as well. I was salivating over the idea of an Ulthwe supplement with squads of warlocks and farseers casting destructive powers all over the place.

But it is all for nought.

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Nightfury over on Faeit seems to think that it will be an addendum to the CE book - not a replacement. We'll see I guess as we'll probably start seeing leaks for it in a week or so.

If it was an addendum they wouldn't need to pull the standard codex (or Iyanden) off the website.

Not saying I agreed with NF. Just putting it out there for people to come to their own conclusions.

Mr Mystery

04-06-2015, 08:30 AM

I know I might catch some flak for this, but.......

Given the original Craftworld Eldar supplement was not that far off, how well do you think specific formations and FOC's might be able to represent the prefences of each Craftworld in the modern game of 40k?

From a purely game based perspective - if it is just a single book, I reserve the right to lament the lack of expanded background we got with Iyanden (which to my mind is worth the price of the book in itself)

ShadowcatX

04-06-2015, 09:14 AM

I know I might catch some flak for this, but.......

Given the original Craftworld Eldar supplement was not that far off, how well do you think specific formations and FOC's might be able to represent the prefences of each Craftworld in the modern game of 40k?

The Biel-Tan formation will encourage people to field multiple units of aspect warriors, probably 1+ banshees, scorpions, and 2+ dire avengers. Options will include 0+ of the other aspect warriors and maybe the court of the young king. They'll get something to help them get into combat.

From a purely game based perspective - if it is just a single book, I reserve the right to lament the lack of expanded background we got with Iyanden (which to my mind is worth the price of the book in itself)

I'll gladly take 10 or so pages of Biel-Tan rather than have Iyanden shoved down my throat constantly.

deinol

04-06-2015, 12:32 PM

I'll gladly take 10 or so pages of Biel-Tan rather than have Iyanden shoved down my throat constantly.

Did someone force you to buy a book you didn't want and make you read it "constantly"?

As much as I would like all the major craftworlds to get a supplement, I'd much rather they expanded the codex the way they did Space Marines than wait for them to do a supplement every two years. If the new codex is revised and expanded, I'm all for it.

Besides, the new format for codices leaves a lot more room for general fluff, instead of having a ton of pages for each unit and then the stats again back in the listings.

Charon

04-06-2015, 12:52 PM

Did someone force you to buy a book you didn't want and make you read it "constantly"?

Iyanden supplement -> Iyanden centered obviously
Warzone: Valedor -> Iyanden centered (should be 50:50 Biel-Tan but hey... they want to sell Wraith constructs)
Datalates -> Iyanden Formations

So yes, everything Eldar so far was Iyanden themed without exception.

ShadowcatX

04-06-2015, 01:49 PM

Iyanden supplement -> Iyanden centered obviously
Warzone: Valedor -> Iyanden centered (should be 50:50 Biel-Tan but hey... they want to sell Wraith constructs)
Datalates -> Iyanden Formations

So yes, everything Eldar so far was Iyanden themed without exception.

Let's not forget the basic codex:

New Iyanden Units:
Wraith Blades (2 types)
Wraith Guard (new scythe options)
Wraith Knight
Ghost Flyer
Spirit Seer (Semi-new)

New Non Iyanden Units:
Crimson Hunter

deinol

04-06-2015, 03:01 PM

Let's not forget the basic codex:

New Iyanden Units:
Wraith Blades (2 types)
Wraith Guard (new scythe options)
Wraith Knight
Ghost Flyer
Spirit Seer (Semi-new)

New Non Iyanden Units:
Crimson Hunter

It seems to me more than just Iyanden use wraith guard/blades/knights.

I guess I didn't notice the warzone and data slates were Iyanden focused as I didn't get those. But it doesn't surprise me that they would cross support their release.

ShadowcatX

04-06-2015, 03:24 PM

It seems to me more than just Iyanden use wraith guard/blades/knights.

I guess I didn't notice the warzone and data slates were Iyanden focused as I didn't get those. But it doesn't surprise me that they would cross support their release.

Do you know the fluff of any of the craftworlds? Iyanden is the "wraiths everywhere" craftworld, and while other craftworlds can use the wraith units, giving us 6 wraith units and one non-wraith unit is shoving Iyanden down our throats.

Thaldin

04-06-2015, 03:30 PM

Charon

04-06-2015, 03:34 PM

I would point out to those saying "Iyanden was being shoved down our throats"...

We were asking for new plastic wraith models for YEARS because of the cost of the metal ones. So we got what we asked for and happily so in my mind, the new wraith models are gorgeous.

We were also asking for plastic aspects, new jetbikes, shining spears, storm guardians, Avatar, Seers / Warlocks on Jetbikes,.... simply stuff that is not created in 1990.
There was enough opportunity for another 2 craftworlds even after the plastic wraiths.

Thaldin

04-06-2015, 03:48 PM

ShadowcatX

04-06-2015, 03:53 PM

Oh I understand there is plenty of room to get more done, but seriously...

They give us a flyer and new wraith models and lots of new ways to use them and all people do it *****... The negativity lately is going off the scale...

Have you even followed the thread? I'm thrilled a new codex is coming out, especially if it means my craftworld of choice gets a little love. The ignorance is going off the scale.

deinol

04-06-2015, 03:59 PM

Do you know the fluff of any of the craftworlds? Iyanden is the "wraiths everywhere" craftworld, and while other craftworlds can use the wraith units, giving us 6 wraith units and one non-wraith unit is shoving Iyanden down our throats.

One box that makes 4 weapon load outs isn't really "4 units".

Yes, Iyanden is the only "Wraiths everywhere" craftworld. But other craftworld have them. And I've been happily enjoying the codex with only a little wraith sprinkled in. Wraithlords have been an Eldar staple for as long as I can remember. Except we used to call them Eldar Dreadnoughts.

Yes, I want plastic aspect warriors and bikes. And it sounds like we'll be getting new bikes soon.

But I can't really complain as I finally have plastic harlequins, my first army.

Thaldin

04-06-2015, 04:07 PM

Have you even followed the thread? I'm thrilled a new codex is coming out, especially if it means my craftworld of choice gets a little love. The ignorance is going off the scale.

Yes, I have read the thread. I follow it closely because I have only ever played Eldar/Harlies since Rogue Trader. They are my only army and I love playing them.

Deadlift

04-06-2015, 10:36 PM

I would point out to those saying "Iyanden was being shoved down our throats"...

We were asking for new plastic wraith models for YEARS because of the cost of the metal ones. So we got what we asked for and happily so in my mind, the new wraith models are gorgeous.

Quite right, I love all the wraith models. Guard, Lords and Knights have an aesthetic I really enjoy and the background is fascinating. Sure Iyanden got the spot light for awhile but it was a long time coming. I only hope that we can still run a ghost army after the next release.
What ever comes next, I'm sure it will sublime, new bikes and aspect warriors will be great. But for me the backbone of my love of Eldar is Wraithguard.

40kGamer

04-07-2015, 12:43 AM

Quite right, I love all the wraith models. Guard, Lords and Knights have an aesthetic I really enjoy and the background is fascinating. Sure Iyanden got the spot light for awhile but it was a long time coming. I only hope that we can still run a ghost army after the next release.
What ever comes next, I'm sure it will sublime, new bikes and aspect warriors will be great. But for me the backbone of my love of Eldar is Wraithguard.

I love the Wraithguard and Wraithlords but not a fan of the Wraithknight... the head just doesn't fit the aesthetic at all.

ShadowcatX

04-07-2015, 04:33 AM

Sure Iyanden got the spot light for awhile but it was a long time coming. I only hope that we can still run a ghost army after the next release.

No longer than it had been for any other craftworld. Unless you want to say Ulthwe had the spot light in 3rd edition because of the Ulthwe Strike Force...

eldargal

04-07-2015, 04:51 AM

Do you know the fluff of any of the craftworlds? Iyanden is the "wraiths everywhere" craftworld, and while other craftworlds can use the wraith units, giving us 6 wraith units and one non-wraith unit is shoving Iyanden down our throats.

I really don't follow that logic. Iyanden uses wraiths a lot, but that doesn't make wraith units Iyanden kits and the rest of hte Iyanden stuff came with an Iyanden codex and releasing tie in products to a release is not forcing anything on anyone. Iyanden is probably my least favourite of the major Craftworlds but I never felt it was being forced on us really.

ShadowcatX

04-07-2015, 05:10 AM

I really don't follow that logic. Iyanden uses wraiths a lot, but that doesn't make wraith units Iyanden kits and the rest of hte Iyanden stuff came with an Iyanden codex and releasing tie in products to a release is not forcing anything on anyone. Iyanden is probably my least favourite of the major Craftworlds but I never felt it was being forced on us really.

If three craftworld specfic books and a half dozen Iyanden centered releases to a single non-Iyanden themed release doesn't do the trick, what will? 5 Iyanden books? 10? 10:1 wraith to aspect warrior ratio? What would it take? I would really like solid numbers here.

eldargal

04-07-2015, 05:17 AM

Just logic. A few tie ins =/= forcing stuff on people. Eldar went years without a solitary ****ing thing being released and now people are whining about getting heaps of attention just because it tied into a supplement release, that is beyond obnoxious.

Kirsten

04-07-2015, 05:23 AM

I don't play elder, so I didn't buy any wraith models, datasheets, or Iyanden supplement, wasn't forced down my throat.

ShadowcatX

04-07-2015, 05:28 AM

Way to dodge the question. This has nothing to do with rather or not the Eldar should get new stuff, it has to do with rather 90+% of that new stuff should favor a single 1 of the major 5 craftworlds. I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't, and that giving some time to all the major craftworlds will be a better product, I don't know why you don't.

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I don't play elder, so I didn't buy any wraith models, datasheets, or Iyanden supplement, wasn't forced down my throat.

Thank you for this astounding contribution to this thread, I don't know what we'd do without it. You are a gentleman and a scholar, and deserve a medal.

MODS, can we get this person a medal?

eldargal

04-07-2015, 05:31 AM

Kirsten

04-07-2015, 05:34 AM

Thank you for this astounding contribution to this thread, I don't know what we'd do without it. You are a gentleman and a scholar, and deserve a medal.

MODS, can we get this person a medal?

one of those anyway.

it is entirely relevant, you are whining like a pillock about there being too much Iyanden stuff, which there clearly isn't. if you don't like it, don't buy it. complaining that there is stuff released that you don't want is pretty silly. do you complain about every single race, faction, supplement, and dataslate you personally don't want to buy?

Mr Mystery

04-07-2015, 05:34 AM

Design studio has finite resources.

Most, if not all, Eldar players will have Jetbikes, Vypers and Aspect Warriors already, in one form or another.

Wraithguard however were for a long old time prohibitively expensive for most players. I think they got up to £12 a model at one point? This meant fewer Eldar players had units of them.

This in itself makes Wraithguard a solid bet for an updated release in plastic. They stood to sell better to existing and new Eldar players than more commonly seen units. Pretty straight forward economics. Iyanden book released to capitalise and hopefully drive further sales.

Or of course, it's all just a conspiracy against you.

eldargal

04-07-2015, 05:35 AM

Charon

04-07-2015, 05:52 AM

because half of it focused on a particular Craftworld.

What is the other half? Even Warzone: Valedor which is Iyanden + Biel Tan is not contributing anything to Biel Tan.
At the moment everything that is not the main codex is focused on Iyanden.

And no, we did not go seven years without anything Eldar.

ShadowcatX

04-07-2015, 06:00 AM

I didn't doge the question, I answered it. To convince me Iyanden was forced down our throat you would have to use logic to explain why a few tie in products launched around a supplement codex is forcing anything down anyones throat. You haven't, because you can't, because the claim is pure unadulterated bollocks.

No, you dodged the question because you don't want to admit that having every single new release save for 1 tie into a single product is an attempt to shove that product down our throats.

YorkNecromancer

04-07-2015, 06:01 AM

I fail to see how a £30 supplement which made MINOR changes to the core Codex has been forced down anyone's throats. It makes sense that Iyanden should be chosen as the supplement, as theirs is the Craftworld which most radically differs from the others. Surely a Codex should choose those cultures which are MOST different, and thus least able to be represented by the core Codex? Yes, arguably, Iyanden can be strongly represented by the current Eldar book, but I think the core question is really this:

Why would anyone complain about more options?

The Iyanden book doesn't negate or radically improve on the current Eldar one. It's simply a new option. Claiming it has 'been forced on the community' is an absurdly hyperbolic statement. Not to mention, one which erroneously conflates the Wraith units with Iyanden; Eldar have always had Wraith units, and as for creating a supplement specifically to shill them? Well. That's basically asking why a business wants to make money.

Of course GW are right to release a supplement that shills the new kits. This is what businesses who operate in the real world do: they seek to make money. And while GW make some business decisions that seem foolish, insane, or downright stupid, the idea of releasing a new product (the Iyanden book) which might improve sales of an existing product (the Wraith kits) is simply good business sense.

I understand it can feel harsh when your army of choice doesn't get the love you see other armies getting. That's just life. But you maybe want to calm down and take the long view. Remember Grey Knights in 4th edition? They were a joke. Then in 5th, they got some love and became, briefly, unbeatable. Now? Well, they're a good army, but their day in the sun is over. This is the way of things, especially if you're prepared to take the really long view. I mean, I've personally waited since the Black Codex for an AdMech army. In over two decades, I never thought it would happen. But here we are, and the Skitarri are a thing now.

So Shadowcatx? Your day in the sun will come. It will. But the undisguised jealousy of those whose turn it is at the moment?

It is an ugly look on you.

ShadowcatX

04-07-2015, 06:10 AM

We went seven damned years without getting anything basically for eldar, then we get a new codex and a new supplement giving us more canon lore material eldar had received at any one time EVER and people are whining because half of it focused on a particular Craftworld. It's things like this that make me glad GW mostly ignore us all.

Um... During third edition we had a codex and an expansion that focused on ALL the craftworlds. Additionally we had fluff and an army list in the eye of terror.

- - - Updated - - -

What is the other half? Even Warzone: Valedor which is Iyanden + Biel Tan is not contributing anything to Biel Tan..

Tyranids

ShadowcatX

04-07-2015, 06:25 AM

I fail to see how a £30 supplement which made MINOR changes to the core Codex has been forced down anyone's throats. It makes sense that Iyanden should be chosen as the supplement, as theirs is the Craftworld which most radically differs from the others. Surely a Codex should choose those cultures which are MOST different, and thus least able to be represented by the core Codex?

Do you not see the contradictions in this paragraph? I'll point them out to you, "MINOR changes" to "MOST different". Once upon a time, all the major craftworlds were radically different from the codex. When Craftwrorld Eldar got sidelined through the printing of the fourth edition codex I went from being able to field 6 troops choices to none. That's a massive departure from the codex. And yet it has been glossed over for years in favor of the most different who got minor changes.

The Iyanden book doesn't negate or radically improve on the current Eldar one. It's simply a new option. Claiming it has 'been forced on the community' is an absurdly hyperbolic statement. Not to mention, one which erroneously conflates the Wraith units with Iyanden; Eldar have always had Wraith units, and as for creating a supplement specifically to shill them? Well. That's basically asking why a business wants to make money.

I never claimed the book was forced on us, I said the craftworld was. Iyanden got an expansion, a dataslate, and a warzone book. Also, while other craftworlds have wraiths, you can't deny wraiths are the defining thing for Iyanden and a "yeah, they have a couple" for every other craftworld.

So Shadowcatx? Your day in the sun will come. It will. But the undisguised jealousy of those whose turn it is at the moment?

It is an ugly look on you.

Go back and read my posts in this thread. I'm not jealous. This whole side discussion came about because I said I'm thrilled that Biel-Tan might get 10 pages instead of Iyanden getting all the love and have been continually attacked (by people who claim to not even like Iyanden since then).

Really, I think a lot of the flack I'm getting is likely from people who didn't play during 3rd edition and thus don't know the level of diversity we once had. Hopefully the new codex will show them.

DanTheGameMan

04-07-2015, 07:33 AM

Has there been any development on the rumorfront?

Ever since the URL Redirects were noticed, I've been hounding for updates several times a day, and I'm left wanting.
I NEED MA FIX OF ELDAR RUMORS.

Defenestratus

04-07-2015, 07:34 AM

C'mon people lets all get along in my super awesome thread of Eldar-ness!!!

Rainbows, Sunshine and pointy-ears!

We should be getting tasty tidbits soon I hope.

- - - Updated - - -

Has there been any development on the rumorfront?

Ever since the URL Redirects were noticed, I've been hounding for updates several times a day, and I'm left wanting.
I NEED MA FIX OF ELDAR RUMORS.

YES ME TOO!!!!!!!!! *searches for the mainline*

Deadlift

04-07-2015, 07:34 AM

It's Tuesday, usually we get the leaked pics about now ?

DanTheGameMan

04-07-2015, 07:37 AM

YES ME TOO!!!!!!!!! *searches for the mainline*

**refreshes Faeit every 5 seconds**

Erik Setzer

04-07-2015, 07:40 AM

Eldar needed new Wraithguard models. So they did them. At the same time, they figured, "Hey, why not also do some options?" So they added those. The Wraithlord and War Walkers also got upgrading, because they were "vehicles" (sort of) that weren't plastic yet. And the Wraithknight was created because the Eldar didn't have a big scary expensive model for people to want.

These weren't created to support the Iyanden supplement. They were created for all Eldar players. Someone at GW then realized a great way to boost sales for the models was to create a supplement that was centered around them. And thus we get the Iyanden supplement. Kind of like how the Scions codex was an opportunistic way to sell more of the Scion and Taurox kits, and the Haemonculus Covens supplement could push the new Haemonculus, Wracks, etc.

The Eldar mainly need new Aspect Warriors. Those are tougher to figure out, because GW won't want to make multiple kits, as that wouldn't maximize profit margin. So they're trying to sort out how to do plastic Aspect Warriors that can use one or two kits to make all of them, in order to save a lot on production cost (expect to see a higher price to cover all the "options" you'll get in the kit, even if you can't use more than one set). Jetbikes *might* happen, but I think the Orks showed that they'd rather do new models than replace something seriously old that doesn't match the rest of the army (Wartraks and War Buggies, which some Ork players refuse to buy because they look so out of place with 3rd edition and newer Orks).

Defenestratus

04-07-2015, 07:46 AM

It's Tuesday, usually we get the leaked pics about now ?

Not this week. This week is Donkey and terrain.

Next Monday and Tuesday we should be getting some morsels.

Subs

04-07-2015, 02:42 PM

Wraithknights where created because, shock, Eldar have always had knights. Adding them in as a Wraith unit just allowed them to continue with a recognised theme. And I'd wait and see what this new codex is before judging whether it invalidates a book that quite frankly was lack luster anyway, it introduced what, one higher power Spiritseer and a couple of half way decent pieces of wargear.

Wondering if that's gonna be a theme, barely altered army listing and formations along with unique wargear and war lord traits for each of the major Craftworlds.

Houghten

04-07-2015, 04:02 PM

This week is Donkey and terrain.

Yes, Donkey and terrain.

Their twilight campaign is easy to explain.

DrBored

04-07-2015, 06:58 PM

next weeks WD:
-faster than the eye can see
-the dying return
-forge world

ShadowcatX

04-07-2015, 07:03 PM

The dying return? We never freaking left mon-keigh.

Defenestratus

04-07-2015, 08:28 PM

next weeks WD:
-faster than the eye can see
-the dying return
-forge world

http://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5153138+_512287fadd75da9f16be26abb4f5f916.gif

Deadlift

04-07-2015, 10:12 PM

^ lol.....but what's happening.

Sounds like jet bikes to me.

daboarder

04-07-2015, 10:15 PM

well the dying is pretty much only used when referring to the Eldar, like the great devourer/Penance of the old ones is the nids.

Looks like confirmation of Eldar (And no second Mechanicum codex, who rumored that again?)

I for one am happy, because I wont be buying into the GW replacement codexes. So more money for infinity.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

04-07-2015, 11:29 PM

Considering the note: "Forgeworld". If there was any time for a Games-Workshop to package Forgeworld rules alongside vanilla rules, it would be when each subdivision produces half of an army. Hm.

DanTheGameMan

04-08-2015, 07:55 AM

next weeks WD:
-faster than the eye can see
-the dying return
-forge world

*squueeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-*

Defenestratus

04-08-2015, 07:56 AM

ShadowcatX

04-08-2015, 08:09 AM

So I recorded my *actual* thoughts on any new codex here:
http://www.unrememberedlegion.com/2015/04/08/farseeing-the-next-eldar-codex/
Its got naughty language in it so if you're offended by these things then don't click :P

Warlocks with brotherhood of psychers just because that rule doesn't get used enough? Farseers losing a wound and a manifester level when they never get played at a competitive level anyways? *shakes my head*

I do agree with you about the crimson hunter though.

Defenestratus

04-08-2015, 08:22 AM

Warlocks with brotherhood of psychers just because that rule doesn't get used enough? Farseers losing a wound and a manifester level when they never get played at a competitive level anyways? *shakes my head*

I do agree with you about the crimson hunter though.

Not so much because its not used enough but because a unit of 10 level 1 psykers is unwieldy and overpowered any way you cut it.

Farseers are going to get hit with the nerf bat - if for no other reason that to give people a reason to take something *other than* a farseer.

DanTheGameMan

04-08-2015, 08:22 AM

So I recorded my *actual* thoughts on any new codex here:
http://www.unrememberedlegion.com/2015/04/08/farseeing-the-next-eldar-codex/
Its got naughty language in it so if you're offended by these things then don't click :P

Friggin lost it at the Tigirius bit.
May have snorted while laughing; got some weird looks from coworkers.

Sadly, I think you're spot on about Battle Focus.
I too would love to see the Swooping Hawks get a little boost; I love their aesthetic, and that was the unit that sold me on getting into Eldar in the first place.

ShadowcatX

04-08-2015, 08:47 AM

Not so much because its not used enough but because a unit of 10 level 1 psykers is unwieldy and overpowered any way you cut it.

Farseers are going to get hit with the nerf bat - if for no other reason that to give people a reason to take something *other than* a farseer.

Really? Because no one who plays competitively is taking farseers or warlocks. 35 points per warp charge is ridiculous when the model is pretty much useless other than that.

Defenestratus

04-08-2015, 09:24 AM

Really? Because no one who plays competitively is taking farseers or warlocks. 35 points per warp charge is ridiculous when the model is pretty much useless other than that.

Funny - I tend to stay away from the competitive d-bags in our hobby because they overall are.. well... not fun people.

But when I've seen people attempt to be Romell with dice and plastic dolls taking themselves way too seriously and they're playing Eldar, its Wave Serpents with Knights (Wraith or imperial) and its mounted seer councils - which Warlocks provide a lynchpin power for. They'll probably scale in mastery level the more you put in a squad, like the way daemons work (I think, I don't actually play, or have even read or seen the daemon codex)

But whatever - the "competitive meta" is the stick by which all "balancing" must be done - so say the internet experts like ShadowcatX.

ShadowcatX

04-08-2015, 09:41 AM

Funny - I tend to stay away from the competitive d-bags in our hobby because they overall are.. well... not fun people.

But when I've seen people attempt to be Romell with dice and plastic dolls taking themselves way too seriously and they're playing Eldar, its Wave Serpents with Knights (Wraith or imperial) and its mounted seer councils - which Warlocks provide a lynchpin power for. They'll probably scale in mastery level the more you put in a squad, like the way daemons work (I think, I don't actually play, or have even read or seen the daemon codex)

But whatever - the "competitive meta" is the stick by which all "balancing" must be done - so say the internet experts like ShadowcatX.

If you get butthurt that badly by someone on the internet disagreeing with your opinion over plastic dolls, I don't think its the competitive people who are taking the game way too seriously dude. That can't be good for your blood pressure.

However, my point is that if the competitive people aren't taking farseers, then there exists a reason to not take farseers already and we don't need one forced on us. I would think that would be obvious. Ditto warlocks, and the warlock council hasn't been taken competitively for a bit.

Charon

04-08-2015, 10:03 AM

Ditto warlocks, and the warlock council hasn't been taken competitively for a bit.

Since 7th to be precise as Eldar lost the ability to cast multiple powers from the same unit and Invis creates more powerful deathstars than some Seers on bikes.

Defenestratus

04-08-2015, 10:11 AM

If you get butthurt that badly by someone on the internet disagreeing with your opinion over plastic dolls, I don't think its the competitive people who are taking the game way too seriously dude. That can't be good for your blood pressure.

However, my point is that if the competitive people aren't taking farseers, then there exists a reason to not take farseers already and we don't need one forced on us. I would think that would be obvious. Ditto warlocks, and the warlock council hasn't been taken competitively for a bit.

Firstly, I'm not getting butthurt. I'm just saying that the "competitive" scene has just as much myopia when it comes to the overall way the game is played as any other "meta" - and that basing your decisions about what is going to get changed/nerfed (which, I don't necessarily think that squads of warlocks changing to brotherhood of psykers is a nerf, its just different) by what the "competitive" players think about them is just as silly as asking a man on the street. Furthermore, my article isn't written from a "competitive" standpoint as on its face, I don't think there is such a thing as "competitive" plastic dolls. Its written from the perspective of what I think GW will do to the book - nothing more.

ShadowcatX

04-08-2015, 10:30 AM

Firstly, I'm not getting butthurt. I'm just saying that the "competitive" scene has just as much myopia when it comes to the overall way the game is played as any other "meta" - and that basing your decisions about what is going to get changed/nerfed (which, I don't necessarily think that squads of warlocks changing to brotherhood of psykers is a nerf, its just different) by what the "competitive" players think about them is just as silly as asking a man on the street. Furthermore, my article isn't written from a "competitive" standpoint as on its face, I don't think there is such a thing as "competitive" plastic dolls. Its written from the perspective of what I think GW will do to the book - nothing more.

And I disagreed with a lot of what you think GW will do because, IMO, it is ridiculous. Nothing more. No need to start name calling entire groups of people just because someone disagreed with you.

40kGamer

04-08-2015, 10:31 AM

Since 7th to be precise as Eldar lost the ability to cast multiple powers from the same unit and Invis creates more powerful deathstars than some Seers on bikes.

I've used Warlocks and Farseers semi-competitively in what I termed a 'possession bomb' list. Warlocks all roll on Daemonology shooting for possession power. If multiple Warlocks get it they split off to guardian units and such. Spiritseer council rolls for invisibility to just be mean. Farseer goes with Conjuring primaris and whatever else you feel like.

Not super competitive (relies on random luck during power generation) and ridiculously unfluffy (thanks for making stupid lists possible GW!) but it's hilarious when you get 3+ possessions and pop tons of greater Daemons and a unit of lesser Daemons from the Farseer turn 1. My favorite part is super competitive types hate this list as it just keeps churning Daemons.

Defenestratus

04-08-2015, 10:34 AM

And I disagreed with a lot of what you think GW will do because, IMO, it is ridiculous. Nothing more. No need to start name calling entire groups of people just because someone disagreed with you.

I call tournament players names all the time - usually to their face - because they ruin things for the rest of us that just want to have a good time and throw dice and drink beer. Not *just* because I disagree with them.

Furthermore, I have precedent on my side with GW "nerfing" things that weren't competitive or broken before. Howling Banshees - which were never the over the top broken, cost effective unit in the 4th edition codex somehow got worse with the most recent one. If they turn Warlocks into Bros then it will just be another injustice done to the Eldar. Disagree with it all you want, its a free world.

And *this* is why I call tournament players names. This is a pickup game I played at my local GW. These are *supposedly* Ultramarines Centurions, who came out of a drop pod with Tigirius and a Wolf Priest attached (they're in the building, and no, they're not really painted either). This is a PICKUP game.. the only game I've been able to play for the last 2 months - and this guy brings a deathstar unit (who of course managed to get invisibility) with a bunch of drop podding space wolves and an unoccupied stormfang. In what world is this fluffy or fun? This is what the internet of competitive 40k has given us - red ultramarine centurions who babysit tigirius to every game.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GPyby4pNNqs/VRbo_lbaPSI/AAAAAAAA1Yw/OCGFHIe6OCA/w897-h1195-no/2015-03-28.jpg

Charon

04-08-2015, 10:37 AM

ShadowcatX

04-08-2015, 10:50 AM

INot super competitive (relies on random luck during power generation) and ridiculously unfluffy (thanks for making stupid lists possible GW!) but it's hilarious when you get 3+ possessions and pop tons of greater Daemons and a unit of lesser Daemons from the Farseer turn 1. My favorite part is super competitive types hate this list as it just keeps churning Daemons.

It isn't unfluffy, it just proves that your craftworld has been corrupted by chaos.

Defenestratus

04-08-2015, 10:50 AM

In the same way as competitive tennis is ruining hobby tennis. :rolleyes:

Do professional tennis players get their kicks by going down to the local club and beating up on some AARP doubles teams?

Not usually, and when they do, the club frowns on it.

Anyways, I'll stop derailing my own thread with this inane prattle from both of us. You keep thinking you're the expert, and I'll do likewise. Anymore commentary from me shall be strictly Codex Craftworld Eldar related.

Charon

04-08-2015, 10:53 AM

A bit of communication can go a long way... but seing the way you communicate, I guess I can see the reason why you keep running in lists you dont wanna play.

ShadowcatX

04-08-2015, 10:54 AM

In what world is this fluffy or fun? This is what the internet of competitive 40k has given us - red ultramarine centurions who babysit tigirius to every game.

In what world is a small group of 5 marines pwning everything that comes their way fluffy? Hmmmm. . . I don't know, certainly doesn't sound fluffy to me. They're supposed to die by droves and never do anything, right?

As to fun, I enjoy difficult games. My friendly games involves playing against double riptides (going up to triple riptides when it arrives). I like being pushed hard, and pushing back hard. I don't see any fun in not trying to do one's best.

40kGamer

04-08-2015, 11:40 AM

I call tournament players names all the time - usually to their face - because they ruin things for the rest of us that just want to have a good time and throw dice and drink beer. Not *just* because I disagree with them.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GPyby4pNNqs/VRbo_lbaPSI/AAAAAAAA1Yw/OCGFHIe6OCA/w897-h1195-no/2015-03-28.jpg

If that's an actual 'in game' photo it violates a couple of my 'will I play this game' rules.

1) Outside of a playing/teaching a new player I will not play in a game with unpainted minis.

2) Minis must be WYSIWYG and painted to represent what is being used... and those ain't no ultramarines. What represented Tigurius a carrot or something?

Even when I go to an event that allows this sort of thing in (and I only goto events that have minimum painting standards listed) I request that the TO only match me to painted armies. If they can't accommodate that I will not be back to their event.

It's not that I'm a complete painting snob but I only play for the full cinematic experience. Anything less is a waste of my time.

Erik Setzer

04-08-2015, 11:52 AM

As to fun, I enjoy difficult games. My friendly games involves playing against double riptides (going up to triple riptides when it arrives). I like being pushed hard, and pushing back hard. I don't see any fun in not trying to do one's best.

I try to do my best, but not trying to bring crazy lists designed to beat my opponent's face off. After being tabled repeatedly in 40K and WFB for a few weeks by lists that were designed just to crush the enemy with no regard to a fun match, I've gotten tired of GW games. I bring lists designed to be able to put up a fight while matching the fluff... and then get to deal with people throwing fluff out the window in order to bring the nastiest stuff possible. I remember one guy talking up how Space Wolves didn't trust psykers all the time, then he ended up running a bunch of games with IG allies that included numerous Primaris Psykers and a Telepath just to try to get more Endurance and a shot at Telepathy, plus Ministorum Priests to buff his squads (because yeah, Space Wolves would totally get more enthusiastic if you shout about the God-Emperor around them... oh, except they don't agree with that view of the Emperor), and a Manticore set up behind an Aegis line.

I could make a beat-your-face-off list to use against those, but it'd require dropping a good bit more cash and then playing a style of game that is incredibly lacking in fun and high in stress (something I do not need more of right now). Why spend money on that when I could just take that money and seek out some other games that don't seem to encourage trying to out-spend your opponent and bring the kitschiest list possible (with codex changes every couple years to encourage people to have to spend a lot of money to change their army for the new beat-your-face-off list).

That's the problem with that kind of gaming. It starts pushing people out of the games, even those of us who've been in them for over two decades.

- - - Updated - - -

If that's an actual 'in game' photo it violates a couple of my 'will I play this game' rules.

1) Outside of a playing/teaching a new player I will not play in a game with unpainted minis.

2) Minis must be WYSIWYG and painted to represent what is being used... and those ain't no ultramarines. What represented Tigurius a carrot or something?

Even when I go to an event that allows this sort of thing in (and I only goto events that have minimum painting standards listed) I request that the TO only match me to painted armies. If they can't accommodate that I will not be back to their event.

It's not that I'm a complete painting snob but I only play for the full cinematic experience. Anything less is a waste of my time.

Can't do this at the local Games Workshop. People just don't bother painting... ever. I might at times use an unpainted model or army, but only because I'd just assembled them and haven't started painting yet and would like to try them in a game (to see what units I like and paint them first). But I see a lot of people who just won't paint their armies. We had a massive End Times battle and there was even a rule added to give a bonus to anyone attacking unpainted models, and that wasn't even enough to get people to paint their models.

It's probably not a coincidence that the people with the most painted models, with one exception, are also the ones most likely to play a narrative list and want to enjoy a fun game rather than an ego-booster. (The one exception is a guy who paints to exceptional standard and designs every army to just crush his opponents, and he goes to national tournaments to play. The odd thing is that some people used to talk down his style of play, and then adapted it without admitting it.)

ShadowcatX

04-08-2015, 12:00 PM

I could make a beat-your-face-off list to use against those, but it'd require dropping a good bit more cash and then playing a style of game that is incredibly lacking in fun and high in stress (something I do not need more of right now). Why spend money on that when I could just take that money and seek out some other games that don't seem to encourage trying to out-spend your opponent and bring the kitschiest list possible (with codex changes every couple years to encourage people to have to spend a lot of money to change their army for the new beat-your-face-off list).

That's the problem with that kind of gaming. It starts pushing people out of the games, even those of us who've been in them for over two decades.

First, that type of match isn't "lacking in fun", it is "lacking in fun for you". Some people, myself included, take great pleasure in a hard fought game played by two competitive lists. If that's not your thing, that's fine, but don't act like it isn't a thing at all, or act like it is somehow worse than your thing, its not. You never see competitive players come online and whine about non-competitive players and their play style.

I could argue that people taking whimpy lists and then whining about "you only beat me because you're a dbag competitive player, and your list doesn't match the fluff" pushes just as many people out of the hobby as anything else. Also, you've been in the hobby for over 20 years and can't make a competitive list without buying a lot more stuff? Really?

Ditto the whole painting thing. I'm currently having a friend of mine paint my armies for me because I want them to look nice, but if I had to do it myself, they'd never get done. I simply don't have an artistic bone in my body. I buy into warhammer to play the game, and again, that's as good a reason as any.

Erik Setzer

04-08-2015, 12:20 PM

First, that type of match isn't "lacking in fun", it is "lacking in fun for you". Some people, myself included, take great pleasure in a hard fought game played by two competitive lists. If that's not your thing, that's fine, but don't act like it isn't a thing at all, or act like it is somehow worse than your thing, its not. You never see competitive players come online and whine about non-competitive players and their play style.

I could argue that people taking whimpy lists and then whining about "you only beat me because you're a dbag competitive player, and your list doesn't match the fluff" pushes just as many people out of the hobby as anything else. Also, you've been in the hobby for over 20 years and can't make a competitive list without buying a lot more stuff? Really?

Ditto the whole painting thing. I'm currently having a friend of mine paint my armies for me because I want them to look nice, but if I had to do it myself, they'd never get done. I simply don't have an artistic bone in my body. I buy into warhammer to play the game, and again, that's as good a reason as any.

I don't make "wimpy lists." I make lists that are designed to be able to put up a fight while matching the fluff (which is why I have a hard time bringing myself to mix Tzeentch and Nurgle or Slaanesh and Khorne).

People like to talk up Eldar, but if I'd wanted to play Eldar "competitively," I'd have had to buy a bunch of Wave Serpents. I have a LOT of Eldar, but no Wave Serpents. Tried playing them without the Wave Serpents, and they could handle a lot, but the moment people bring in tournament-style lists, it's over. Don't have any Wraithknights, either. They're $110 each.

People swear by bikes or Centurions for Marines. I don't have either. It'd take $78 just to get one unit of Centurions. It'd take about $80 or so for a unit of Bikes. To build a list around them, I'd need more than that.

Dark Eldar could use some of the smaller transports. I don't have any, because I have a 3rd edition Dark Eldar army. And a Raider/Ravager-based force seems more fun to me.

Chaos, I'd need some Heldrakes, maybe some other stuff. Maulerfiends would be good for my Khorne Daemonkin. I didn't have any Bloodcrushers before last week. Still don't have Nurgle Monstrous Cavalry, any Slaanesh Daemons, or Screamers of Tzeentch for Daemons.

Most of my money was dropped into Orks... and when's the last time you saw Orks win a tournament? Yeah, that's right, they tend not to do so well in tournaments. The only reason I almost won a local tournament with them is... well, here's my list (and it probably would have won, but my opponent delayed a lot and cheated a lot and I didn't feel like dealing with that any more):

Stompa, kitted out
Big Mek with 4+ KFF, Mega-armor
5 Burna Boyz, 3 upgraded to Meks
10 Grots
10 Grots
Morkanaut
Knight Errant

The Meks and one unit of Grots sat in the Stompa, giving it a 4+ shield against shooting and repairing the heck out of it (in the first two games, it ended the game with no hull points lost, and even had to take on another Stompa in the second round). The three big vehicles meant opponents didn't know what to aim for and split fire, and I could just crush at will. It wasn't really that fun, even as I won. (And I even made up a back story for it, though it was kind of a joke.)

Basic point: Orks aren't going to go toe-to-toe with the uber-competitive lists. So you're saying I should be content losing all my games with my favorite army, or find another army and sink money into it and play it rather than my favored army?

Frankly, I don't care if my opponent is having "fun" stroking his ego just because he brought a deathstar of Chaos Warriors with a bunch of characters tooled up, or an army composed of a bunch of Thunderwolves, a bunch of Terminators with Njal and Arjac, a Stormfang, a Stormwolf, Grey Hunters in Drop Pods, Murderface McMurderpants, and a Dreadnought with an axe and shield. Oh, and that second list I mentioned? The first three hours of that battle I got to hear my opponent complain about how he was going to lose, and how I brought a Knight, and I actually shot his flyers down without them able to do much... but by the time it was done, he had wiped out my entire army, because as much firepower as I had, I couldn't get past all the 3+ invulnerable saves in the army before they got into combat (and those TWC and that particular Terminator group, especially with freaking Endurance on them, are good at mulching things in combat). Even my Knight couldn't do much to the TWC because they all had storm shields.

You might have fun with one-sided matches against lists that could cause trouble for another balanced list. I don't consider them fun regardless of what side I'm on. I like close matches that don't require someone to buy the latest expensive kits and play an army that isn't fluff-based.

But hey, I'm not a special snowflake who needs a game to validate himself. I play the games to relax and have fun.