Craftworld Eldar in the rumormill

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I like what I'm seeing!

[Charon]

If they're still Str 6 then most everything is STILL getting wounded on 2's.

I would even argue that it is a buff in some instances. Most big creatures tend to have a rather medicore I score.

[Iphan4tic]

The GW web store says the Farseer edition codex is sold out already?

[Defenestratus]

Someone needs to find out what the Phoenix Lords do. They're probably my favorite part of the fluff...

[Looted Emporer]

So are Iyanden armies SoL with this edition? I have a wraithguard army that I love using, but if I'm understanding this correctly I will need to have at least 2 other troops in order to field my now elite wraiths and wraithlords? Also does this mean that codex Iyanden is no longer valid?

[daboarder]

I've always loved how certain people change the goal posts to avoid admitting things.

"We dont know the cost of wraitguards and wraithknights, they'll be more expensive"

GW does not appreciably change the cost.

"Dah....its short range strength D, yeah like thats totally what I mean to before...DERP"


EDIT: Thanks for the Info Learn2Eel

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I can definitely see the logical path one could take to make a Wraithknight cost less than half of what a Stompa does.

That path involves several heavy blows to the forebrain from a cinderblock, but I can see it.

you think thats bad, look at the Lord of Skulls

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Wait, he's not recommended a Plasma Obliterator to take on Wraithknights, is he? Aren't they T8? It's S7. Has to wound on a 5+. That's not exactly going to scare anyone.

Of course he is, but path seems to think 27 pts for a jetbike mounted scatter laser that the whole unit can be equipped with is cheap.


But thats the thing isn't it, individually giving scatterlasers to jetbike squads....not that bad, letting every single model take a 36 S6 4 shot gun in the unit at that price......thats stupid

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Since you don't need it anymore - can I have your stuff?

Def, you're better than that don't be ****ty

[40kGamer]

I wonder what the old Ghosthelm does these days?

[Mr Mystery]

I wonder what the old Ghosthelm does these days?

It goes on yer noggin.

[40kGamer]

It goes on yer noggin.

Cheeky git! :p

[Defenestratus]

via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
The last article said the avatar is the same except for Lord of War, but
there are some nice changes. Stats are the same but he now gives
Fearless, Furious Charge and rage to all within 12" INCLUDING the avatar
himself. Molten body is the same i think, unaffected by pyromancy,
flamer, melta, soul blaze weapons. Wailing doom shooting profile is the
same but close combat it now gives him +2S.

Also all Exarches now have 2 wounds. Practically everything except for
the guardians has had something changed.

Iyanden can still be used, as there are no Craftworld specific rules as we
expected given the name of the codex.

Two wound exarchs is huge!


Def, you're better than that don't be ****ty

Eh.. its an ice hockey thing... too much of an inside joke I guess.

[Looted Emporer]

So does this mean that Iyanden armies are SoL? I have an eldar army that is mainly wraiths that I love using with the Iyanden book, but now that wraithguard can't be troops I have to take a 2 troop tax in order to use my wraith army?

Does this mean that the Iyanden supplement is no longer valid as well?

[DarkLink]

Well, competitively this is the most unbalanced thing I've seen since they released those broken Screamer/Flamer rules.

[Defenestratus]

Well, competitively this is the most unbalanced thing I've seen since they released those broken Screamer/Flamer rules.

I think the book has good internal balance from what I've seen so far (points values sounding like they're mostly the same)

But I do think that external balance will be a factor against all but Necrons at the moment - although I don't think its nearly as bad as what people think it is.

I have a feeling that with Space Marines, there will be a str D pie plate available as an orbital bombardment. Everyone will get their "big guns".

[ShadowcatX]

Does anyone know what the change to the generic aspect warrior stat line was?

[DarkLink]

No, the internal balance sounds just as bad as the external balance. Wraithknights are underpriced by like 200pts, easily. Jetbikes are utterly disgusting. Build an army of those, with a few support units thrown in, and you've got one of the most disgusting armies to ever grace the table. If you ignore four or six problematic units, then what you're saying is probably true, but those units are absolutely disgusting.

[ShadowcatX]

No, the internal balance sounds just as bad as the external balance. Wraithknights are underpriced by like 200pts, easily. Jetbikes are utterly disgusting. Build an army of those, with a few support units thrown in, and you've got one of the most disgusting armies to ever grace the table. If you ignore four or six problematic units, then what you're saying is probably true, but those units are absolutely disgusting.

I think your pricing is significantly different than mine. I'd say the wraithknight is 50 - 100 pints undercosted, and the jetbike special weapons probably undercosted by 5 points a model, ditto wraith guard probably. It makes a big difference in the long run, but not game breakingly so.

On the bright side I think things like wraithblades may be useable now, even as footdar. There are some fun and non-broken possibilities

[daboarder]

No, the internal balance sounds just as bad as the external balance. Wraithknights are underpriced by like 200pts, easily. Jetbikes are utterly disgusting. Build an army of those, with a few support units thrown in, and you've got one of the most disgusting armies to ever grace the table. If you ignore four or six problematic units, then what you're saying is probably true, but those units are absolutely disgusting.
Pretty much this

[Defenestratus]

No, the internal balance sounds just as bad as the external balance. Wraithknights are underpriced by like 200pts, easily. Jetbikes are utterly disgusting. Build an army of those, with a few support units thrown in, and you've got one of the most disgusting armies to ever grace the table. If you ignore four or six problematic units, then what you're saying is probably true, but those units are absolutely disgusting.

The internal balance to me sounds amazing. I'm looking at the book and saying that, unlike a typical Phil Kelly book, there are no clear winners or losers in this from what I can tell. Every single unit has a reason to take it.

Warp spiders can apparently jump in the opponents shooting phase, and dark reapers also get twin linked against flyers, turboboosters, and flatouters (and they still ignore jink saves)

I'm seriously not just blowing smoke up your backside here. I own 6 wraithknights. I'm not even excited/thinking of taking them. I'm salivating over taking my wraithblades, my swooping hawks, my falcons, my fire dragons and banshees... FINALLY BANSHEES!!!!!

[Archon Charybdis]

If you ignore four or six problematic units, then what you're saying is probably true, but those units are absolutely disgusting.

Pretty much so. All the non-Distortion changes sound like fun,
fluffy changes that tweak things just enough to make them good. The D weapon changes are by a wide margin the single most broken thing I've seen since I started playing in 4th ed.

[Tomgar]

No, the internal balance sounds just as bad as the external balance. Wraithknights are underpriced by like 200pts, easily. Jetbikes are utterly disgusting. Build an army of those, with a few support units thrown in, and you've got one of the most disgusting armies to ever grace the table. If you ignore four or six problematic units, then what you're saying is probably true, but those units are absolutely disgusting.

Totally agreed. Wraiths and Jetbikes and just horrifying now, with Jetbikes easily taking the title of best troops choice in the game. The thing that really annoys me is how Dark Eldar were hit by 7th ed blandhammer and now the craftworlders get a jillion unnecessary buffs. It leaves the Dark Kin (whose technology is supposedly so advanced it may as well be magic) essentially at the same power level as they were in 5th, only with fewer wargear options and special characters. And yet Craftworld Eldar get buffed from overpowered to just plain silly. Awesome.

[Lexington]

I think your pricing is significantly different than mine. I'd say the wraithknight is 50 - 100 pints undercosted, and the jetbike special weapons probably undercosted by 5 points a model, ditto wraith guard probably. It makes a big difference in the long run, but not game breakingly so.
When it comes to jetbikes, the issue isn't so much cost as availability. A Windrider squad has the ability to put an absolutely obscene amount of highly mobile firepower on the table for a far, far lower cost then they ought to be able to, and there's really not much you can do to counter it besides hope that you only have to weather one turn of it. The price would be fine for a weapon that could be taken on, say, one in five models, but every single one just makes the unit far, far too powerful.


Totally agreed. Wraiths and Jetbikes and just horrifying now, with Jetbikes easily taking the title of best troops choice in the game. The thing that really annoys me is how Dark Eldar were hit by 7th ed blandhammer and now the craftworlders get a jillion unnecessary buffs. It leaves the Dark Kin (whose technology is supposedly so advanced it may as well be magic) essentially at the same power level as they were in 5th, only with fewer wargear options and special characters. And yet Craftworld Eldar get buffed from overpowered to just plain silly. Awesome.
Yes, this. The Eldar Codex is bad - bad enough that I'm seeing a lot of levelheaded people just shrug and wonder how quickly they can transition their locals from 40K to a different game - but it's made worse by the complete U-turn of design philosophy. After the relatively balanced first wave of 7th Ed books, we've now got a sudden and unpleasant return to power creep. Given the Necron Codex, this doesn't seem to be a fluke, either.

[daboarder]

Yes, this. The Eldar Codex is bad - bad enough that I'm seeing a lot of levelheaded people just shrug and wonder how quickly they can transition their locals from 40K to a different game - but it's made worse by the complete U-turn of design philosophy. After the relatively balanced first wave of 7th Ed books, we've now got a sudden and unpleasant return to power creep. Given the Necron Codex, this doesn't seem to be a fluke, either.

Ha, half of my mates who are upset about this book ARE eldar players.

[Lexington]

Ha, half of my mates who are upset about this book ARE eldar players.
Yeah, I feel bad for Eldar players right now. They were already one of the reigning books, with all their Serpent Spam, and now the problem's gotten even worse. This post (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent&p=7426740&viewfull=1#post7426740) from totgeboren over at Warseer says it pretty well:


This just in, "your friend needs to buy a new army".
Seriously, I got two friends who play Eldar, and one of them is now considering shelving/selling his army, since he can't make an army that will result in fun games from his current collection. The other really likes winning, but he is seriously concerned that people wont wanna play him unless he pays them to (tournament).

This seems to probably be the worst codex GW has released, ever, even taking the Realm of Chaos books from RT days into account.

When Skaven were released in 5ed whfb, I could take on 2 enemy armies at once. That last match, where I won convincingly even though deploying in the middle with two enemy armies arrayed against me, one at the front and one at the back, destroyed whfb for me. I never bough a whfb model after that and my group stopped playing.

I like w40k, but not unconditionally, and this could potentially spell the end of my gaming group.
Products like this can cause whole gaming groups to collapse because you don't want to exclude anyone, so you switch over to another game instead.

[daboarder]

warp spiders:

They can move as before 6+2d6" and if double "1" loose a model, but they can choose to jump (2d6") in the opponent's shooting phase after the warp spiders are chosen as a target. If warp spiders are out of range or out of los after this movement, firing unit cannot choose another target. If they jump in the opponent's shooting phase, they cannot jump on their next turn.


Edit: so its got a drawback, well thats nice, but this style of rule should NOT exist

[Defenestratus]

I'm not in the least upset. I'm sitting going "FINALLY!"

I'm sick as hell of d-bags thinking that the Eldar codex was "broken" because of a single tank. That tank didn't constitute the whole freakin book and if you wanted to play Eldar without sitting 5 wave serpents on your back table edge - totally against how they were supposed to be portrayed on the table top - then you had a really REALLY tough fight on your hands. Now it looks like you can take literally any unit in the book and not go to the table thinking "why the hell did I DO this?"


Yes, this. The Eldar Codex is bad - bad enough that I'm seeing a lot of levelheaded people just shrug and wonder how quickly they can transition their locals from 40K to a different game -

Dude... you know how I get in the channel.. I lost it how many times over the necron codex? I had the exact same thoughts about army wide FNP+4+ and ridiculous C'Tan powers and STUFF THAT JUST DOESN'T FREAKIN DIE!!!

I have a feeling that when this book comes out, people actually give it a fair shake on the table top, they'll not think its as bad as everyone thinks it is.

Plus, this is what you powergaming f-tards had this coming. You do sh*t to break the game, and the game will figure out how to break you. If you've ever fielded 3 knights, invisible centurions, or 18 wraiths in a normal game then you deserve the "rectification" that is the new Eldar codex (even though I don't really think its going to be as game breaking as everyone thinks it will)

10 jetbikes with all scatter lasers will be 270 pts. That puts out 40 shots. At T4 thats 7.4 unsaved MEQ wounds. For 270 points I can put together a nasty-*** Sanguinary guard/priest unit that has nothing but master crafted powers swords, with the chapter banner that on the charge will do 12 unsaved MEQ wounds. The old war walker squad with scatter lasers and starcannons was 210 pts. It would do ~6 unsaved MEQ wounds per shooting turn on a JSJ unit. Broadsides are slightly more expensive and can lay down the pain as well. I realize that none of these examples are objsec but they all have other benefits that the jetbikes don't.

Point is, that if you think people are going to spam the jetbike, then why aren't they spamming these other units that have comparable damage outputs?

Hell I'm still waiting to play someone in an unbound game where they take 10 bloodthirsters.. that hasn't happened yet either.

[daboarder]

EDIT: You know what def, shut up, seriously most of us commiserated with you over the obvious flaws in the old book.

You dont then get to turn around and attack us when we point out the equally bad balance issues in this book. ESPECIALLY when those balance issues are external.

Calm down man, your being overly belligerent here.



Plus, this is what you powergaming f-tards had this coming. You do sh*t to break the game, and the game will figure out how to break you. If you've ever fielded 3 knights, invisible centurions, or 18 wraiths in a normal game then you deserve the "rectification" that is the new Eldar codex (even though I don't really think its going to be as game breaking as everyone thinks it will)

This is probably my biggest issue, because some of us, I hate to inform you are stuck on the **** side of this god aweful abomination of an arms race that GW is shoveling, and we have to put up with their **** and your **** as well so you might not realise but as bad as you think Cron, Marine and Knight players can be, the rest of us are sitting here in "Bad Guy" land thinking you're behaving the EXACT SAME WAY.

[CptDrake]

My first post on the forums woohoo. Anyways. As a Eldar and Dark Eldar player I see where the problem lies with this new codex but, I remember a time back in 4th edition that it was bad for the xeno races to even compete with the Space Marines from the meta I saw while I was stationed at Ft. Bliss and Ft. Hood. Also it took forever for the Tau and Eldar codices to come out around 10 years I think. I do agree that two years is short but, I kinda rather have a release schedule like this or some FAQs. I agree with the wave serpent issue about the shield but now honestly from what I saw being here at Seattle and around the interweb Space Marine's are well off. Mr. Defenestratus gave a good example of one very nasty option out there. I do believe that we all can think of one. I for one I am excited that I can field an aspect army again. Will I use the bikes maybe, will I use the wraith knight maybe but really if someone uses more than let say two then they are just idiots and "That Guy". Also if it is true with the current release rumors bouncing around I could see Tau and Space Marines getting the same treatment for example, think about how the Tau can bring strength D rail guns or the Space Marines getting something. Just my two cents sorry if little long winded LOL.

[Tomgar]

So basically, you're acknowledging that this is a "powergamer" Codex and essentially telling everyone who isn't cool with that to get stuffed. Remind me never to play a game against you. Some of us actually like games to be challenging and fun.

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This is probably my biggest issue, because some of us, I hate to inform you are stuck on the **** side of this god aweful abomination of an arms race that GW is shoveling, and we have to put up with their **** and your **** as well so you might not realise but as bad as you think Cron, Marine and Knight players can be, the rest of us are sitting here in "Bad Guy" land thinking your behaving the EXACT SAME WAY.

So much this. Eldar players might rejoice that they're the new OP hotness to counter Necrons, but people who play Dark Eldar, Chaos, Dark Angels, Nids etc. are being screwed by both power-creep and the people who accept it because "yay, my army is amazing now!" We end up being called "trolls" and "overly negative" by the positivity brigade, just because we want a bit more game balance.

[Stone Edwards]

So basically, you're acknowledging that this is a "powergamer" Codex and essentially telling everyone who isn't cool with that to get stuffed. Remind me never to play a game against you. Some of us actually like games to be challenging and fun.

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So much this. Eldar players might rejoice that they're the new OP hotness to counter Necrons, but people who play Dark Eldar, Chaos, Dark Angels, Nids etc. are being screwed by both power-creep and the people who accept it because "yay, my army is amazing now!" We end up being called "trolls" and "overly negative" by the positivity brigade, just because we want a bit more game balance.

"Positivity brigade"....seriously have you read many posts on just about any 40k related forum? The brigade is not filled with positive people.

All this complaining about the codex serves absolutely no point. This is how it is, GW is publishing the codex like this. Either deal with it, or go play something else. There are no other options. Posting the same things over and over helps nothing.

[Lexington]

Calm down man, your being overly belligerent here.
Heh, nah, he's just responding to me. We've been having this back-and-forth all day in our IRC channel, and we're bad to each other. :p

Also, I'm glad to see that popular opinion seems to hold that the new Necron book was way overpowered itself. For a while, I thought it was just me (well, and Def, and the rest of the channel...).


All this complaining about the codex serves absolutely no point. This is how it is, GW is publishing the codex like this. Either deal with it, or go play something else. There are no other options. Posting the same things over and over helps nothing.
Oh, there's lots of other options, just not universally accepted ones. Maybe the Eldar Codex will help make them more acceptable. ;)

[Defenestratus]

EDIT: You know what def, shut up, seriously most of us commiserated with you over the obvious flaws in the old book.

You dont then get to turn around and attack us when we point out the equally bad balance issues in this book. ESPECIALLY when those balance issues are external.

Calm down man, your being overly belligerent here.




This is probably my biggest issue, because some of us, I hate to inform you are stuck on the **** side of this god aweful abomination of an arms race that GW is shoveling, and we have to put up with their **** and your **** as well so you might not realise but as bad as you think Cron, Marine and Knight players can be, the rest of us are sitting here in "Bad Guy" land thinking you're behaving the EXACT SAME WAY.

Dude.. I'm not angry or belligerent... You'd know it if I was angry. I'm more excited than anything else.

As for me "behaving the exact same way"... I have 12 wave serpents, 6 wraithknights, 4 Avatars, 2 Phantoms, 3 revenants, 5 lynx, 2 scorpions, 2 cobras, 2 warp hunters, a wraithseer and a partridge in a pear freakin tree man. If I wanted to be a power gaming d-bag and just ruin people's good times, I certainly had the arsenal to do it before this codex. I don't need a book that has D-weapons in it, since I had plenty to play with before this. I'm excited now that I can make a take-all-comers list now with models that I haven't used since probably 2006. Thinks like Vypers, and Swooping Hawks, and dark reapers, and nightspinners. Things that might have been ok, but were seriously outshined by other things in the book.

One thing I've never been accused of is being a powergamer. In fact, when I went to the new-to-me LGS in town, I was openly mocked in public by "that guy" for NOT taking 6 wave serpents and 3 wraithknights.


So much this. Eldar players might rejoice that they're the new OP hotness to counter Necrons, but people who play Dark Eldar, Chaos, Dark Angels, Nids etc. are being screwed by both power-creep and the people who accept it because "yay, my army is amazing now!" We end up being called "trolls" and "overly negative" by the positivity brigade, just because we want a bit more game balance.

Well if the trend of Necrons, Skitaii and Eldar continue, you have a lot to look forwards to. If I had to put my finger on the pulse of GW, its certainly that this isn't the same game we've all been playing for the past couple years. I'd imagine that we're going to see more codexes like Necrons and Eldar. What has really excited me is that things that haven't changed since 3rd edition, like Exarch statlines, all of a sudden are getting updated. Its an exciting time to be a 40k player I think since you really don't know what is going to come down the road. I look forward to see what they do for Dark Angels - I'm thinking that we'l see some crazy plasma shenanigans.

And just to be clear.. I'm not rejoicing that I think we're the OP hotness. I'm rejoicing in the fact that I'm going to the bottom of my Eldar bits bin and digging out pewter models to toss in the simple green bath to repaint because all of a sudden, I won't feel like I'm a doormat for using them.

[ShadowcatX]

To everyone saying "this codex is broken" I'm curious. How many codices have you said that about before, because I seem to recall hearing it very often. As recent as the last necron codex in fact. And yet, necrons haven't taken over the meta. This is not the end of 40k as we know it. Take a deep breath, everything will be ok.

This book has problems. We all see it. We may disagree on the degree, but they are there. But you know what? Play testing will prove how much of a problem this really is better than all the theory crafting in the world. Will this be OP on the Severn Loth / Grey knight Centurion Star level? On the 5 flyrant and some spores level? On the 18 wraiths with RP level? We don't know. We all think we know, and we all want our voice heard, we're passionate about our game, we have limited funds, limited time, and we're afraid of the unknown. Its natural. But we can make it known. In a few weeks, we'll have a lot more data with which to judgek in a month, even more.

One other thing, you all are so caught up on what the Eldar can do, you haven't noticed what we can't do. We have pants anti-air without spending 420 points on a formation. We lack good, long ranged anti-tank outside of our LoW. (It is a LoW, right?) We are not going to have numbers on our side, bikes may be the best troops choice in the game, but they are also probably the most expensive this side of terminators r crisis suits, each life is precious. Be aggressive, bring the fight to us, play to the mission. The Eldar are unquestionably powerful, but they are not all powerful.

[daboarder]

To everyone saying "this codex is broken" I'm curious. How many codices have you said that about before, because I seem to recall hearing it very often. As recent as the last necron codex in fact. And yet, necrons haven't taken over the meta. This is not the end of 40k as we know it. Take a deep breath, everything will be ok.

This book has problems. We all see it. We may disagree on the degree, but they are there. But you know what? Play testing will prove how much of a problem this really is better than all the theory crafting in the world. Will this be OP on the Severn Loth / Grey knight Centurion Star level? On the 5 flyrant and some spores level? On the 18 wraiths with RP level? We don't know. We all think we know, and we all want our voice heard, we're passionate about our game, we have limited funds, limited time, and we're afraid of the unknown. Its natural. But we can make it known. In a few weeks, we'll have a lot more data with which to judgek in a month, even more.

One other thing, you all are so caught up on what the Eldar can do, you haven't noticed what we can't do. We have pants anti-air without spending 420 points on a formation. We lack good, long ranged anti-tank outside of our LoW. (It is a LoW, right?) We are not going to have numbers on our side, bikes may be the best troops choice in the game, but they are also probably the most expensive this side of terminators r crisis suits, each life is precious. Be aggressive, bring the fight to us, play to the mission. The Eldar are unquestionably powerful, but they are not all powerful.

List of "broken" Codexes (and the issues with each that we're identified as soon as we had info on them)

Tau 6th ed: Riptides, Missile Sides
Space Wolves 5th ed: Thunderwolves, Grey hunters, Longfangs
Blood Angels 5th ed: Razorback spam
Necrons 5th ed: Night scythe spam
Eldar (really every edition but we'll limit it to 6th): wraithknights, waveserpents,
Space Marines 6th ed: Grav guns, Bikes
Knights: Knights (then ad lance came along)
Chaos Daemons 6th ed: FMC spam (The intermediate flamers would count too)


You'll notice its consitently the same armies time and again that break the "GW is trying to BALANCE the game this cycle..." every single time.

[Defenestratus]

One other thing, you all are so caught up on what the Eldar can do, you haven't noticed what we can't do. We have pants anti-air without spending 420 points on a formation. We lack good, long ranged anti-tank outside of our LoW. (It is a LoW, right?) We are not going to have numbers on our side, bikes may be the best troops choice in the game, but they are also probably the most expensive this side of terminators r crisis suits, each life is precious. Be aggressive, bring the fight to us, play to the mission. The Eldar are unquestionably powerful, but they are not all powerful.

Well there's the swooping hawk thing, but actually being able to fly over a flyer is going to be tough in practice I think, even if you have an 18" move. Plus I haven't seen it confirmed whether its just 1 haywire attack on the flyover or 1 per model. If people take the warhost (and they should because if you don't then thats not really in the spirit of the book) then you're going to be paying at least 350-400 points on the required units - so just bear that in mind when running the numbers.

Here's the first thing I pulled out of mothballs (literally, it was in a cedar trunk lined with mothballs) full of models that I need to rebase and slap some new paint on because I'm actually going to use them now!!!!!!
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pRO6BnpXH1c/VTHIE_viqzI/AAAAAAAA11Q/qHnNtQ19_dc/w1594-h1195-no/IMG_20150417_215712.jpg

[Deadlift]

I'm going to say it "is Matt Ward back ?":D

[Defenestratus]

List of "broken" Codexes (and the issues with each that we're identified as soon as we had info on them)

Tau 6th ed: Riptides, Missile Sides
Space Wolves 5th ed: Thunderwolves, Grey hunters, Longfangs
Blood Angels 5th ed: Razorback spam
Necrons 5th ed: Night scythe spam
Eldar (really every edition but we'll limit it to 6th): wraithknights, waveserpents,
Space Marines 6th ed: Grav guns, Bikes
Knights: Knights (then ad lance came along)
Chaos Daemons 6th ed: FMC spam (The intermediate flamers would count too)


You'll notice its consitently the same armies time and again that break the "GW is trying to BALANCE the game this cycle..." every single time.

Just a minor correction, the 4th edition Eldar book was rather tame in 5th edition when SMF was no longer a thing and falcons began their heretofore journey of dust collectors.

[ShadowcatX]

List of "broken" Codexes (and the issues with each that we're identified as soon as we had info on them)

Tau 6th ed: Riptides, Missile Sides
Space Wolves 5th ed: Thunderwolves, Grey hunters, Longfangs
Blood Angels 5th ed: Razorback spam
Necrons 5th ed: Night scythe spam
Eldar (really every edition but we'll limit it to 6th): wraithknights, waveserpents,
Space Marines 6th ed: Grav guns, Bikes
Knights: Knights (then ad lance came along)
Chaos Daemons 6th ed: FMC spam (The intermediate flamers would count too)


You'll notice its consitently the same armies time and again that break the "GW is trying to BALANCE the game this cycle..." every single time.

Ok. Is the fear that orks and angry marines are getting left behnd with the eldar codex or is the fear the necrons, tyranid, and space marines are getting left behind? Those are very different levels of broken.

[daboarder]

Just a minor correction, the 4th edition Eldar book was rather tame in 5th edition when SMF was no longer a thing and falcons began their heretofore journey of dust collectors.

sure, but compared to its contemporaries and the style of codexes released at the time it dropped it had more power, options and tricks than anything released before it (and yeah I'm talking about from when GW started striping down the books)

[DarkLink]

For the record, I think the only other time I thought a new release was op was the crazy tzeentch flamer screamer release. Even stuff like the tau or the current eldar was "good, but not unmabageable".

[ShadowcatX]

Well there's the swooping hawk thing, but actually being able to fly over a flyer is going to be tough in practice I think, even if you have an 18" move. Plus I haven't seen it confirmed whether its just 1 haywire attack on the flyover or 1 per model. If people take the warhost (and they should because if you don't then thats not really in the spirit of the book)

I'm not sure how good that will be, 2/3rds of the scary flyer armies seem to be wound based flyers.

Also, the whole battle host, I'm not sure what that is really in the spirit of except footdar. (Although footdar with wraithblades with axes sounds like a blast.)

[Erik Setzer]

Yarp. Sounds pokey, but again, the 12" range of Shuriken Catapults helps rein this in a bit, as they'll need every bit of that movement to keep safe!

If I played Eldar, I think I'd take a predominantly infantry army, designed to close the range, then fall back, drawing the enemy into range of the slower elements, such as Wraithguard.

Dunno if it would be any good. But it sounds cool to me, and that's reason enough

Well, if you have predominantly infantry, it might be good to draw in the enemy without advancing too much, at least with the Guardians. You'll want them to stay near the Support Batteries to give them Preferred Enemy per their formation (and also to protect it from Drop Pods and stuff).

Actually, Jetbikes and Falcons/Wave Serpents with units mounted in them might make a nice hammer to drive the enemy to the Guardian anvil. Sounds like it could work in theory at least...

- - - Updated - - -


Since you don't need it anymore - can I have your stuff?

Nope. The only army I've ever let go of was an Eldar army my dad had that I didn't paint. Even if I'm not playing games with figures I've worked on, I like to keep them around as personal art.

Besides, I always hold out hope things will get better. Because I'm insane and for some reason haven't learned my lesson from life yet.

- - - Updated - - -


Well if the trend of Necrons, Skitaii and Eldar continue, you have a lot to look forwards to. If I had to put my finger on the pulse of GW, its certainly that this isn't the same game we've all been playing for the past couple years. I'd imagine that we're going to see more codexes like Necrons and Eldar.

Well, have fun with all these amazing new powergaming codices... but having had to wait three editions for my last codex update and getting one right after 7th dropped, I'm not looking forward to waiting for 10th edition and seeing every other army get all kinds of amazing stuff while my army was the example that GW had calmed down and decided to make an army without anything seriously strong or broken. Clearly that example was wrong, and the Space Wolves already started making it seem like a fluke, and now we're right up to "Screw you in the bum with a rusty fork, Ork players! Go play a REAL army like Space Marines or Eldar!"

[Lexington]

One other thing, you all are so caught up on what the Eldar can do, you haven't noticed what we can't do. We have pants anti-air without spending 420 points on a formation.
Are you kidding me? Hawks are now doubtlessly one of the best anti-air units in the game now. A unit of ten will take out almost any flyer in the game with their special attack.


We lack good, long ranged anti-tank outside of our LoW. (It is a LoW, right?)
War Walkers can bring plenty of mobile anti-tank fire, and now have a formation that gives them Preferred Enemy. That's ignoring the Falcons doing a pinpoint deep strike in the middle of enemy lines, and unloading anywhere from 6 to 18 Fire Dragons to wreck hell on enemy armor of any kind.

Now, the answer to both of those is that they're expensive, and that's where I think the Eldar Codex has something of a weakness - for the most part, they're specialists, and not cheap ones. Hawks will eliminate flyers, but if your enemy's not packing any, they're going to be twiddling their thumbs most of the game. Striking Scorpions will tear through Guard, but they'll bounce off of power armor. Etcetera, etcetera. This is how Eldar should be, up to a point, but between the Wraith units and the Windriders, you have a set of near-generalists that can reliably cause an extraordinary amount of damage to a wide range of targets at extreme ranges, and lack much in the way of a decent counter. Fix these, and it'd be a much better Codex.

[Learn2Eel]

I saw someone mention that the Avatar bubble now also provides Furious Charge and Rage, but I've not seen that confirmed by luchiban. I've updated the post with the few excerpts he posted after I went to bed, basically just Dark Reaper and Warp Spider unique rules.

For those saying Eldar are weak to air, are you guys still forgetting Crimson Hunters? Sure, they aren't great against FMCs but take a pair of 140 point Crimson Hunters (I assume their current re-roll failed armour penetration rules remained) and laugh at any flyer that tries to establish air superiority. The only real problem with Crimson Hunters is that Interceptor destroys them, but Eldar are the best equipped of any army to just insta-gib any relevant targets in the first turn. The Swooping Hawk Haywire thing is a bit unwieldy but it nonetheless means a combination of those two units will thrash things like Elysian armies and others that use flyers rather than FMCs.

The buffs to the Aspect Warriors in general are amazing, this is easily the best they have been in almost a decade. Swooping Hawks that are basically the same as they were in 6E (i.e. pretty good and versatile) that now move 18", can attack flyers with Haywire weapons and are generally really valuable in a 7E Maelstrom of War context. Dark Reapers that re-roll to hit against anything that can claim a Jink save and are still Space Marine killers. Howling Banshees that will move an average of 15 inches a turn with the Eldar Warhost detachment buff and ignore Initiative penalties for charging through cover. Dire Avengers that Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2 and also still retain Counter-Attack. Warp Spiders that have Strength 6 weapons that roll to wound against Initiative, are just as mobile as before and can perform assault jumps in the enemy shooting phase to get away from potential chargers or rapid-firing enemies and so on (this is so trolly!). Striking Scorpions that now have Stealth and Shrouded until they attack enemies either with shooting or close combat, meaning they truly are their own delivery system. Shining Spears with 4+ cover saves without the need to Jink, meaning they actually get to use their strong shooting attack before charging. 140 point Crimson Hunters that still annihilate almost any flyer and can still badly hurt FMCs. Fire Dragons that can now take "Eldar Drop Pods" in the form of Falcon squadrons that have no-scatter Deep Strike.

Aside from the blatantly over-powered stuff - I am looking at you formation bonuses, Wraithknights, Wraithguard and Windriders - this codex actually looks really slick.

- - - Updated - - -


Are you kidding me? Hawks are now doubtlessly one of the best anti-air units in the game now. A unit of ten will take out almost any flyer in the game with their special attack.

Yep. I don't think people understand just how insanely good Swooping Hawks are overall in 7th Edition alone. A unit that has no-scatter Deep Strike and can freely jump back into ongoing reserves at a moment's notice is insane in Maelstrom of War missions. They shred light to medium infantry with their lasblasters and Grenade Packs, they shred ground vehicles with stock Haywire Grenades, they destroy non-FMC flyers with their special Haywire attack, and they are EVEN FASTER by moving 18" a turn. This unit was already pretty darned good and is probably close to being the outright best Aspect Shrine now, which I love considering they are my favourites!

[eosgreen]

as long as no one calls anyone fat you can say wahtever the hell you want ive learned. so much anger over a codex that STILL isnt out yet lol

[Learn2Eel]

I'm very annoyed that my Wraithguard army is now going to be the subject of rage from pretty much everyone in my local gaming scene, but I've been planning on making Eldar my primary 40K army for a while now anyway so the plan is to eventually get models enough to do any kind of list; i.e. Guardian heavy, Aspect heavy, tank heavy, flyer heavy, Avatar/Footdar, etc. That way less people complain and I get to have a gigantic, beautiful collection which I can always change around for game-to-game so it never gets stale. I pretty much have to do this now as there is no way in hell I am running beginner/introductory games with my Wraithguard now, screw that....

[ShadowcatX]

Are you kidding me? Hawks are now doubtlessly one of the best anti-air units in the game now. A unit of ten will take out almost any flyer in the game with their special attack.

Really? It'll take out flyrants? Flying demons? Because those are what I hear the most about when flyers are discussed. A specialist unit that doesn't hit the two most important targets that it is specialized against sn't "one of the best anti-air units in the game". And that's assuming it even is one haywire per model, not unit.

[DarkLink]

Scatterlaser jetbikes drop flyrants remarkably well, though. And Flyrants are pretty crappy against most of the rest of the new Eldar cheese. Fourty scatterlaser jetbikes, jetbike farseer, a Wraithknight, easily fits in 1850 with a few hundred points left to spair. At that point level, a 5 flyrant list won't have much anything on the ground, so the Wraithknight will just murder everything while the jetbikes and flyrants duke it out. The flyrants might, maybe win that fight if they go first (if they go second, the jetbikes will outshoot them. One dead and one wounded T1, the four flyrants kill 11 jetbikes, the jetbikes shoot back and drop the wounded flyrant and a healthy one, and so on, with about 20 jetbikes left, assuming a bit of psychic support from the farseer). 5 Flyrants loses that matchup.

3 Flyrants is more common, and means there's more stuff on the ground for the Wraithknight to kill. If the guy has Mawlocs, those are kind of ok at killing jetbikes, but a halfway competent player will be too spread out for it to kill more than a few a turn. Any lictors will get shot to pieces, the Wraithknight will murder anything hanging out on the ground. Not likely to be a pretty matchup for the nids.

[Lexington]

Dark Reapers are also fairly decent at downing FMCs, what with their Jink negation.

[eosgreen]

I'm very annoyed that my Wraithguard army is now going to be the subject of rage from pretty much everyone in my local gaming scene, but I've been planning on making Eldar my primary 40K army for a while now anyway so the plan is to eventually get models enough to do any kind of list; i.e. Guardian heavy, Aspect heavy, tank heavy, flyer heavy, Avatar/Footdar, etc. That way less people complain and I get to have a gigantic, beautiful collection which I can always change around for game-to-game so it never gets stale. I pretty much have to do this now as there is no way in hell I am running beginner/introductory games with my Wraithguard now, screw that....


dude **** those ppl run what you like. avatar its cool as hell and aspect warriors are cool as hell. i'm considering playing a biel-tan army. back in the day i actually ran that awful "court" squad with all the exarcs and avatar lol. was THE WORST unit ever 6 inches a turn but some games.... it did things... and thats the fun imo. just look how annoying these ppl raging and taking 40k srsly most likely are to play irl. dont be one of them

[Charon]

Well if the trend of Necrons, Skitaii and Eldar continue, you have a lot to look forwards to. If I had to put my finger on the pulse of GW, its certainly that this isn't the same game we've all been playing for the past couple years. I'd imagine that we're going to see more codexes like Necrons and Eldar. What has really excited me is that things that haven't changed since 3rd edition, like Exarch statlines, all of a sudden are getting updated. Its an exciting time to be a 40k player I think since you really don't know what is going to come down the road. I look forward to see what they do for Dark Angels - I'm thinking that we'l see some crazy plasma shenanigans.

So in only 2 - 5 years I will finally get a good DE codex. Wow. I am already so exited.... and the amazing daemonkin codex with all the good units which are basically the same as in the ****ty CSM codex...
Yeah... a lot to look forward to...

[Mr Mystery]

I keep hearing Marv quote, but with a sing-song, lyrical quality to it...

'These are the old days, the good days, the all-or-nothing days'

Welcome back to the fold, 2nd Ed 'Eldar as they should be'. I wasn't scared of you then, and I'm not scared of you now. But it's damned good to see you, you have been sorely missed.

Now, where'd I put me Heavy Bolter? It's time to make some Pointy Ears do the 'splodey dance....

[ShadowcatX]

Scatterlaser jetbikes drop flyrants remarkably well, though.

If you consider 1000 points getting 4.5 wounds a turn on 200 point models "remarkably well" sure they do. If not the math doesn't back up your statement.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd say there's enough dakka there to worry a Flyrant. Sure, it may be unlikely a single volley will chin it, but such potential there.

Especially if Guide still twin-links stuff. Yes I'm aware I'm adding stuff to the equation :p

Aye. And Doom :p

[ShadowcatX]

I'd say there's enough dakka there to worry a Flyrant. Sure, it may be unlikely a single volley will chin it, but such potential there.

Especially if Guide still twin-links stuff. Yes I'm aware I'm adding stuff to the equation :p

Aye. And Doom :p

Yes. 800 points of shooting at a 200 point target will worry most things. That does not make them good at it. These are knowable numbers if you'll do some math. Jetbikes are good, but they are not good at everything.

[eldargal]

I can't be bothered reading through pages of hysterics so can someone just tell me what's happening with Banshees?

[Houghten]

+3" run / assault, ignore Initiative penalty for cover.

Supposedly.

[Defenestratus]

I can't be bothered reading through pages of hysterics so can someone just tell me what's happening with Banshees?

Add 3"to run and charges. Ignore penalties for charging through terrain. Otherwise the same. Take them in the aspect formation and they are all ws5.

[eldargal]

That's pretty good, I mean it won't be so bad losing a couple to overwatch now if you're striking first again.

[Defenestratus]

That's pretty good, I mean it won't be so bad losing a couple to overwatch now if you're striking first again.

Yeah GW managed to do what we wanted them to do for them... Amazing.

[daboarder]

I can't be bothered reading through pages of hysterics so can someone just tell me what's happening with Banshees?

they are still ****. Go cry in a corner and no this time you wont have my sympathies

[eldargal]

Yeah GW managed to do what we wanted them to do for them... Amazing.

Yup I'm stunned. Only lacking assault vehicles now unless I missed a new change to the WS.:p

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I mean, last time I checked T-4 3+s die in droves just like everything else especially with so much ignores cover...Grav-guns and drop pods still say hello... So does centurions with Draigo. Skies are not falling. You know I love my Eldar. It is my favorite army and why I got into 40k. I guess a lot of these people don't play Eldar or actual friendly games. I Played a game recently where I held everything in reserves except for 3 WKs and a squad of rangers, and got drop podded, by 2 squads of centurions and a squad of stern guard. They killed 2 wraith Knights with a 3+/5 up cover save in a single round of shooting I'm excited about the WK buffs, wraith guard die like dogs to poison and salvoed Grav-guns...even in WSs...but then again I didnt think you just needed to take what the Internet tells you to take. /shrugs/

[Erik Setzer]

So in only 2 - 5 years I will finally get a good DE codex. Wow. I am already so exited.... and the amazing daemonkin codex with all the good units which are basically the same as in the ****ty CSM codex...
Yeah... a lot to look forward to...

You know, I wasn't feeling too bad about the Daemonkin codex... until the Eldar codex popped up. Let's see, Daemonkin get to pay 275 points for a FMC with a Strength D CCW that strikes at I1 (and flying is frankly useless for something only equipped for assault). Then the Eldar come out with a model that's just 20 points more, is a Gargantuan Creature, better stats (except WS and I, and maybe BS, but the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage doesn't use BS, and, as noted, is reduced to I1 by its weapon), that can either fire two D weapons or have a D weapon in assault that strikes at Initiative, and is pretty much as maneuverable, if not more so.

It's like a giant middle finger to the Daemonkin players. And now I feel like that expensive model I bought just wasn't worth it, because it took maybe a month for them to come out with something so vastly superior that it shames anyone putting the BoIR on the table.

[Erik Setzer]

I mean, last time I checked T-4 3+s die in droves just like everything else especially with so much ignores cover...Grav-guns and drop pods still say hello... So does centurions with Draigo. Skies are not falling. You know I love my Eldar. It is my favorite army and why I got into 40k. I guess a lot of these people don't play Eldar or actual friendly games. I Played a game recently where I held everything in reserves except for 3 WKs and a squad of rangers, and got drop podded, by 2 squads of centurions and a squad of stern guard. They killed 2 wraith Knights with a 3+/5 up cover save in a single round of shooting I'm excited about the WK buffs, wraith guard die like dogs to poison and salvoed Grav-guns...even in WSs...but then again I didnt think you just needed to take what the Internet tells you to take. /shrugs/

"Other armies' one-trick ponies and deathstars can kill our basic Troops! Therefore the army is still weak in comparison!"

I'm going to laugh. It's a cruel laugh, yes. But I'm in a place where I find humor in someone being so purposefully stupid that it's obvious they're trolling.

The Jetbikes might die, but then the things that killed them will die horrible, painful deaths. If they're that close, they're in Str. D flamer ranger, and Wraithknight assault range, and even if the WK doesn't have a D assault weapon, it's still got nasty CC attacks and the horribly painful Stomp. So yeah, they might kill the Jetbikes, but then they'll die horribly. And if they focus on the WK (who is cheap enough to lose without concern), the Jetbikes and/or Guardians can shred them with overwhelming firepower.

And thus, the other armies' deathstars and such are neutralized, because we're not playing in a vacuum.

The only unit that can give some serious concern would be something like Thunderwolf Cavalry. Multiple wounds, lots of attacks, Rending, access to lots of power weapons, and can all have 3+ inv. saves, which can be annoying to Str. D. But heck, just make them take scores of saves.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Maybe I just don't take my toy time so seriously.

Because my group even plays the ugly "U" word lists /scary voice/. We even make jokes about it, none of the stuff revealed has made me cringe only rejoice in more cool stuff.

In any case, way too much over reaction. I'm very excited about the new dex and what all it offers. I just wish they would bring in new Phoenix Lords and Plastic Aspects. I still have all my metal ones, and I really hate that over half the army is still fine cast. Boo Hiss!~

I do love that new Autarch though. Part of me wishes they would put warlocks back into aspect squads like in the fluff. But wish listing aside, I've gotta go buy more Guardians, because I only have a small number of them. I could never justify using civilians in my war hosts because of my own created craftworld, but I can definitely say I really like a lot of these formations.

[Arkhan Land]

Sad about the re-force-orging of my wraith-host but aside from that theres a lot of things I like. Instead of having to choose my three falcons or some wraithlords and reapers now I can take both.

Gotta go pickup another box of gaurdians as well myself...

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Sad about the re-force-orging of my wraith-host but aside from that theres a lot of things I like. Instead of having to choose my three falcons or some wraithlords and reapers now I can take both.

Yeah that does stink. But it is also really cool about the tank squads, I think that is definitely for the better, I've always thought about the war host doing that anyways. On another wishful note, I always felt like the Autarch should've been able to buy Exarch Powers. I really wish we knew if they got them now or not.

I'm also super excited about Banshees, Whenever I take them now I think I'll have one of the Farseers roll on santic just for a chance at Hammer hand. Because having a chance at Strength 5 crazy ladies with a 3+ warp charge, with also having a chance to shoot vortex bombs = why not.

[Haighus]

Dark Reapers are also fairly decent at downing FMCs, what with their Jink negation.

Dark Reapers look like they may actually be a decent counter to Eldar Jetbikes, which is kind of funny. AP3, ignores jink, twin-linked vs jetbikes, with 2 shots at S5 per Reaper should make some dents in a jetbike squad. With Slow and Purposeful they can also hide in cover the first turn and move out to avoid too much return fire.

[Defenestratus]

Yeah that does stink. But it is also really cool about the tank squads, I think that is definitely for the better, I've always thought about the war host doing that anyways. On another wishful note, I always felt like the Autarch should've been able to buy Exarch Powers. I really wish we knew if they got them now or not.

I'm also super excited about Banshees, Whenever I take them now I think I'll have one of the Farseers roll on santic just for a chance at Hammer hand. Because having a chance at Strength 5 crazy ladies with a 3+ warp charge, with also having a chance to shoot vortex bombs = why not.

Just remember, you're taking a huge risk taking sanctic - if we lose the ghosthelm's nifty "drop a warp charge and pretend that wound never happened" then you could end up doing some serious damage to your farseer. I think i'm going to stuck to runes of fate and battle with my psykers - except the hemlock ofc which telepathy has always been its core competency - although a wet dream would be to allow it to use the psychomancy powers.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Just remember, you're taking a huge risk taking sanctic - if we lose the ghosthelm's nifty "drop a warp charge and pretend that wound never happened" then you could end up doing some serious damage to your farseer. I think i'm going to stuck to runes of fate and battle with my psykers - except the hemlock ofc which telepathy has always been its core competency - although a wet dream would be to allow it to use the psychomancy powers.

Oh heck yes! That would be awesome. And I agree on the precautions. I've really enjoyed santic powers lately. I will miss being able to summon "Khaine's wrath" though! The white lions painted in red fire to represent Khaine's beasts (Khorne daemons) and the great Hawks & Phoenix to represent a greater daemons and other dark gods monsters, but I'm sure my friends will still let me play that so its all good.

The dire avengers shrine is definitely cool. And I'm really excited about the 3 fire prisms also. I wonder if it means just for the concentrated shots or the blasts as well.

[Charon]

I think the first thing I will do with the new codex is the following:

Give my DE Codex + Coven to my friend and ask him to build the meanest and most evil army he can imagine for 2k points.
Then I will get my Eldar Codex and make up a random numbers generator which tells me which units to pick for 1750 points.

After that I will take bets if I table him 3rd or 4th round.

[ShadowcatX]

Just remember, you're taking a huge risk taking sanctic - if we lose the ghosthelm's nifty "drop a warp charge and pretend that wound never happened" then you could end up doing some serious damage to your farseer. I think i'm going to stuck to runes of fate and battle with my psykers - except the hemlock ofc which telepathy has always been its core competency - although a wet dream would be to allow it to use the psychomancy powers.

Farseers have the helm. And runes that allow them to reroll a psychic power a turn.

Also warlocks got a modified brotherhood of psychers. (Which someone predicted and I said would never happen.)

[Defenestratus]

Farseers have the helm. And runes that allow them to reroll a psychic power a turn.

Also warlocks got a modified brotherhood of psychers. (Which someone predicted and I said would never happen.)

*coughahemcough*Oh hai*weeze*

Does the helm still do what it did before? (if so thats pretty strong)

[Aldavaer]

Losing the Mantle of the Laughing God actually makes sense if you think the Harlequins have also been taken out of the codex.

ShadowcatX apologies for not replying earlier about the Warp Spiders, you were right I had forgotten about AP and the fact that the effective reduction in a riptide a toughness by 4 only works out to a 2+ instead of a 3+.

[Mr Mystery]

Yes, it still goes on your noggin. :p

(A joke so cheap, I used it twice, and I still have change!)

[ShadowcatX]

*coughahemcough*Oh hai*weeze*

Does the helm still do what it did before? (if so thats pretty strong)

Yup.

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ShadowcatX apologies for not replying earlier about the Warp Spiders, you were right I had forgotten about AP and the fact that the effective reduction in a riptide a toughness by 4 only works out to a 2+ instead of a 3+.

No problem, just trying to make sure I didn't miss anything. My best friend's third riptide is in the mail so I have a vested interest in killing them.

[Defenestratus]

Yup.


Well, the saving grace is that we can't summon daemons anymore (which was stupid to begin with)

Whats the mechanic for the warlocks bros of psychos?

And is there any info on PL's yet?

[Aldavaer]

via Iuchiban (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page69) 4-18-2015

Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6" get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6" are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5" marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.


Also I will add that illic night spears weapon has lost distort but always has precision shot and can give that to ranger units he joins.

[DarkLink]

If you consider 1000 points getting 4.5 wounds a turn on 200 point models "remarkably well" sure they do. If not the math doesn't back up your statement.

I mathed out ~1000pts of flyrants shooting at ~1000pts of jetbikes. Jetbikes won handily. I also mentioned a few things about how the two overall armies would face off against each other. You could at least pretend to read my post next time.

- - - Updated - - -


Yup I'm stunned. Only lacking assault vehicles now unless I missed a new change to the WS.:p

They were soooo close, yet still so far from fixing banshees.

[Charon]

They were soooo close, yet still so far from fixing banshees.

Not too sure about that. If you REALLY want to try it, I can imagine that an Aspect Warrior Host (+1 WS) together with Vauls Engines (Deepstriking Falcons without scatter) could make them work.
You can shield them for one turn behind 3 Falcons and then they move 9" and assault 5 - 15"

[DarkLink]

The problem is they still have to be exposed for at least one turn. Maybe, maybe you'll have terrain set up just right to hide them, but you can't rely on it. Your opponent can still shoot them before they're a threat.

[Dalleron]

I actually lol'd when I read karandras' bite ignored all saves. Not that its OP in most ways if you aren't a t3 squishy. It's probably a novelty attack in my eyes.

[Charon]

The problem is they still have to be exposed for at least one turn. Maybe, maybe you'll have terrain set up just right to hide them, but you can't rely on it. Your opponent can still shoot them before they're a threat.


You can hide them behind a wall of 3 Falcons.
If you do it correctly they should block LoS just fine. Even more so when you set up terrain and deepstrike close to LoS blockers as you may leave the vehicle (9" !!! ) after DS.
If you opponent manages to shoot them after all this, he deverves to wipe them put.. or rather you deserve to get wiped.

But this is really a first world problem.. other armies can assault from their vehicles, but their assault units are utter crap compared to Eldar.

[ShadowcatX]

I mathed out ~1000pts of flyrants shooting at ~1000pts of jetbikes. Jetbikes won handily. I also mentioned a few things about how the two overall armies would face off against each other. You could at least pretend to read my post next time.

Use real math and I will.

8 Bikes at tyrant: 32 shots, hitting 1/6, wounding 1/2, armor save failed 1/3. 8/9 of a wound. Less than that if he happens to have fnp.

Tyrant shoots back: 12 shots, twin linked: hitting 3/4, wounding 5/6, failed armor save 1/3. Total: 2 and 1/3rd.

This is not a race jetbikes are winning, especially since their firepower dwindles while the tyrant stays the same until death.

[Ravingbantha]

I know there are going to be alot of new spam, but I'm looking forward to Dragons, hawks (who can now take on flyers) and Reapers with BS 5, my scorpions and banshees with WS 5. Or my avengers busting off with 30 BS 5 shots per squad.

[Mr Mystery]

Strictly speaking, all armies have their own spam.

For my Skitarii, I'm hooked on Vanguard, because I love their guns. When three out of four currently owned Troop choices are Vanguard, that's spam.

Key is to not make the spam predictable from player to player

[Kirsten]

might have to pick up this book, always fancied a wind rider host.

[Defenestratus]

The problem is they still have to be exposed for at least one turn. Maybe, maybe you'll have terrain set up just right to hide them, but you can't rely on it. Your opponent can still shoot them before they're a threat.

In this era of 7th edition assault.. being able to be shot for at least a turn seems to be something that they go through great pains to preserve. The only thing I can think of that bypasses this golden rule is that BAngels stormraven formation...

Can't say that I'm all that impressed with the PL's. Asurmen seems like a rather stout choice. Karandras is remarkably gimmicky for a codex that seemed to avoid gimmicks and instead go for concrete buffs. Maugan Ra is a nasty McNasty shooter.... I guess I'm just let down by Karandras considering he's my favorite PL. While its nice to have a single Str 6 shot that basically ignores all saves, it still is a bit of a novelty.

[Haighus]

That S6 shot would make Sicarians cry though... if they still had tear ducts. And emotions.

[DarkLink]

Well, sure, it makes sense you can shoot at their transport and try to kill it, then kill them. That's fair. On their own though, they're too fragile to just walk across the board and hope people ignore them. I would say they're at least useable now, though.

[Defenestratus]

Well, sure, it makes sense you can shoot at their transport and try to kill it, then kill them. That's fair. On their own though, they're too fragile to just walk across the board and hope people ignore them. I would say they're at least useable now, though.

See I don't know how you would make banshees a great pick without making them over the top. Maybe making them AP2... I have the same issue with Shining Spears. They seem to be *almost* a great pick in my eyes but if they gave them anything else they'd be over the edge.... Perhaps making them WS5 will make them a great unit...

[DarkLink]

Use real math and I will.

8 Bikes at tyrant: 32 shots, hitting 1/6, wounding 1/2, armor save failed 1/3. 8/9 of a wound. Less than that if he happens to have fnp.

Tyrant shoots back: 12 shots, twin linked: hitting 3/4, wounding 5/6, failed armor save 1/3. Total: 2 and 1/3rd.

This is not a race jetbikes are winning, especially since their firepower dwindles while the tyrant stays the same until death.

So... Farseers can twinlink units pretty easily. That changes the math quite a bit. It changes even more when you consider how multiple units would pair off against other, multiple units. We're not playing 200pt games, we're playing 1850 games (or1500 or 2000 or whatever). You're talking about one unit vs one unit in a complete vacuum, and that's an exceptionally ignorant thing to do. You haven't bothered to consider the implications of how two complete armies face off against each other.

Again, as I said in my first post, a Farseer, 40 jetbikes, and a Wraithknight is about 1500pts. Compare to a maxed out 5 flyrant list. Tournament nids have nothing that can deal with a new Wraithknight, especially not with so many flyrants. The flyrants have to shoot the jetbikes or the jetbikes will kill them, so they can't kill the Wraithknight but at least in flying mode they can avoid getting killed in assault.

If the Eldar go first, the farseer can try guide and prescience. Nids have a decent shot at stopping one, but it's super random. It probably averages out at one power getting off and the other either failing or being blocked.

The flyrants are still on the ground T1, so the jetbikes have a solid shot at dropping all 5 flyrants in one go. GG, guys, gg. The table probably doesn't have enough terrain to hide 5 flyrants from a unit as mobile as jetbikes, even at events as well known for having large LOS blocking terrain as the LVO. So there might be a couple flyrants left after T1. T2, the jetbikes probably finish them off, and T3-5 aid the Wraithknight in demolishing the rest of the Nids army.

If the flyrants go first, it becomes a much closer game, but if the farseer can stay alive the jetbikes on their own still pretty much cause mutual destruction of the flyrants. There might be a flyrant left after T4, but the Wraithknight probably has finished off the nids on the ground, and there's still about another 350pts of eldar running around to kill stuff. Maybe that's a 5th unit of jetbikes and a second farseer, in which case there's no way the 5 flyrants win even if they go first, not unless they roll well and the Eldar dice are crap.

So don't tell me I haven't put much thought into this when the best you've done is a quick comparison of two units in a complete vacuum.

- - - Updated - - -


See I don't know how you would make banshees a great pick without making them over the top. Maybe making them AP2... I have the same issue with Shining Spears. They seem to be *almost* a great pick in my eyes but if they gave them anything else they'd be over the edge.... Perhaps making them WS5 will make them a great unit...

I think as they are they'd be good with just an av12 assault transport. Not impossible to kill, but still a solid shot at getting into combat. They hit fairly hard, but not obscenely so.

- - - Updated - - -


That S6 shot would make Sicarians cry though... if they still had tear ducts. And emotions.

Sicarians are front armor 13...

[ShadowcatX]

So... Farseers can twinlink units pretty easily. That changes the math quite a bit. It changes even more when you consider how multiple units would pair off against other, multiple units. We're not playing 200pt games, we're playing 1850 games (or1500 or 2000 or whatever). You're talking about one unit vs one unit in a complete vacuum, and that's an exceptionally ignorant thing to do. You haven't bothered to consider the implications of how two complete armies face off against each other.

Again, as I said in my first post, a Farseer, 40 jetbikes, and a Wraithknight is about 1500pts. Compare to a maxed out 5 flyrant list. Tournament nids have nothing that can deal with a new Wraithknight, especially not with so many flyrants. The flyrants have to shoot the jetbikes or the jetbikes will kill them, so they can't kill the Wraithknight but at least in flying mode they can avoid getting killed in assault.

If the Eldar go first, the farseer can try guide and prescience. Nids have a decent shot at stopping one, but it's super random. It probably averages out at one power getting off and the other either failing or being blocked.

The flyrants are still on the ground T1, so the jetbikes have a solid shot at dropping all 5 flyrants in one go. GG, guys, gg. The table probably doesn't have enough terrain to hide 5 flyrants from a unit as mobile as jetbikes, even at events as well known for having large LOS blocking terrain as the LVO. So there might be a couple flyrants left after T1. T2, the jetbikes probably finish them off, and T3-5 aid the Wraithknight in demolishing the rest of the Nids army.

If the flyrants go first, it becomes a much closer game, but if the farseer can stay alive the jetbikes on their own still pretty much cause mutual destruction of the flyrants. There might be a flyrant left after T4, but the Wraithknight probably has finished off the nids on the ground, and there's still about another 350pts of eldar running around to kill stuff. Maybe that's a 5th unit of jetbikes and a second farseer, in which case there's no way the 5 flyrants win even if they go first, not unless they roll well and the Eldar dice are crap.

So don't tell me I haven't put much thought into this when the best you've done is a quick comparison of two units in a complete vacuum.

Dude, you're tossing the Eldar extra points, but not doing the same for the nids. You also have the eldar using their psychic powers, but again, not the nids. Hell, the nids have 10 psychic levels to the eldar's 3. You have made your mind up how things are going to go and imagining scenarios to suit your theory. On the flip side I have actually done the math (which you claimed to have done).

Also, I am not arguing on behalf of the knight, we were discussing jetbikes, don't try and change the topic by bringing it into this.

[Haighus]

Not Sicarian Infiltrators.

[Mr Mystery]

Can anyone translate the above into English?

I've been looking at my Skitarii's chances against Wraithknights.

Provided I can get the combo off, a unit of Vanguard with a full unit of Cydonian Dragoons getting the charge ought to be able to knack one in a single round of combat.

Vanguard graciously lower the Toughness down to 7.

Cydonian Dragoons double their Initiative to 6 thanks to Joust, and should hit on 3+ up thanks to judicious application of Doctrina Imperative giving +3 Weapon Skill.

24 attacks, with 6's to hit generating 2 more hits, 3+ to wound then his saves give me a decent chance to kneecapping that bad *** mofo.

And quick question....when one cannot wound a target, does one still get to roll to wound? I'm guessing you can, because that's what makes Rending quite potent. If I am right (rule book doesn't really say one way or the other, just that a - on the chart means you can wound the target), then Rad Carbines can wound from their bonus wounds?

[Haighus]

I reckon Dragoons with the Radium Jezzail would be more effective at taking down Wraithknights, as they wound on a 4+ and every 6 to wound causes 2 AP2 wounds. All at a decent range. A full unit can fire 10 shots plus Phospher serpentas if they have them (which would reduce any cover saves the Knight has).

[Mr Mystery]

True.

But I just really like the Taser Lances! Might be the Warhammer player in me. And it's a great excuse to play Knights of Cydonia.

Turned up to 11.

[Mr Mystery]

I reckon Dragoons with the Radium Jezzail would be more effective at taking down Wraithknights, as they wound on a 4+ and every 6 to wound causes 2 AP2 wounds. All at a decent range. A full unit can fire 10 shots plus Phospher serpentas if they have them (which would reduce any cover saves the Knight has).

Also, 12 shots - you can have an additional 5.

I'm going for 12. Because I'm a wee bit soft in the head when it comes to Taser Lances. Who needs AP when you caused loads of wounds!

[Haighus]

yo dawg y jezailz wen u can dark eldar with poizin wepinz?
Gargantuan creatures are only wounded by poison on a 6+. Same goes for snipers when I think about it, but at least every wound caused will be 2 wounds.

[Mr Mystery]

Could have translated his post from numpty to English dude :p

[Haighus]

Hmm, so 6 jezzails would cause around 4 wounds if you pumped up the BS of the unit using Doctrina Imperatives. And then probably get annihilated by the storms of S6 firepower and Destroyer weapons following up :p

Haha true :p takes about twice as long to read his posts than usual.

[Mr Mystery]

Hmm, so 6 jezzails would cause around 4 wounds if you pumped up the BS of the unit using Doctrina Imperatives. And then probably get annihilated by the storms of S6 firepower and Destroyer weapons following up :p

Haha true :p takes about twice as long to read his posts than usual.

Yarp. But 24 WS7, I6, S8 attacks, with 6's to hit adding two additional hits, plus some Hammer of Wrath can do hideous things.

In pure statistics, it's quite risky. But I've broken out my dice tonight, and have jobbed a Wraithknight in a single batch more often than not. So the slightly ropey tactic sure suits my play style :p

Guess I'll be procuring four more Cydonian Dragoons when I'm paid!

As for Numptyspeak - I don't get it. It must take more effort to type in gibberish than to just use plain old English - and when you use English, people don't you give funny looks as you fail to tweak it can only be cool in a situation where others are doing the same...

[Spikey McTorture]

Yarp. But 24 WS7, I6, S8 attacks, with 6's to hit adding two additional hits, plus some Hammer of Wrath can do hideous things.

In pure statistics, it's quite risky. But I've broken out my dice tonight, and have jobbed a Wraithknight in a single batch more often than not. So the slightly ropey tactic sure suits my play style :p

Guess I'll be procuring four more Cydonian Dragoons when I'm paid!

As for Numptyspeak - I don't get it. It must take more effort to type in gibberish than to just use plain old English - and when you use English, people don't you give funny looks as you fail to tweak it can only be cool in a situation where others are doing the same...

Mekanikus is good but I think that gams workshop is trying to say that Eldar are beter than Mekanikus cuz their is an Eldar ranger sniping the Mekanikus guys who are about to knot now what hit them. I rote the whole words out this time sinse some of you was having trouble reading my dialekt

[Haighus]

Dammit I forgot about FNP. Damn these Wraithknights keep getting better and better... Tbh, GW has probably tacked a few too many rules onto Gargantuan creatures.

[Mr Mystery]

Nah. They should be big and stompy.

Plus, FnP is only 5+ these days, though harder to negate. Needs to be ID to negate.

[Spikey McTorture]

Dammit I forgot about FNP. Damn these Wraithknights keep getting better and better... Tbh, GW has probably tacked a few too many rules onto Gargantuan creatures.

Garganchuan creatures is very expenive so gams workshot makes a lot of mony when the make over powerd rules for big costly things like garganchuans because people will buy then for the good rules and they cost much. Not complaining but the 40k rules have become more market oreented over the years. this is presisely why games worsop releases codexes one at a time cuz ppl wil codex jump onto the new ones cuz they is better

[40kGamer]

Well there's the swooping hawk thing, but actually being able to fly over a flyer is going to be tough in practice I think, even if you have an 18" move. Plus I haven't seen it confirmed whether its just 1 haywire attack on the flyover or 1 per model. If people take the warhost (and they should because if you don't then thats not really in the spirit of the book) then you're going to be paying at least 350-400 points on the required units - so just bear that in mind when running the numbers.

Here's the first thing I pulled out of mothballs (literally, it was in a cedar trunk lined with mothballs) full of models that I need to rebase and slap some new paint on because I'm actually going to use them now!!!!!!
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pRO6BnpXH1c/VTHIE_viqzI/AAAAAAAA11Q/qHnNtQ19_dc/w1594-h1195-no/IMG_20150417_215712.jpg

Oh the horror! I've used Hawks in every game since 5th! They didn't deserve the Banshee mothball treatment!!! ;)

[daboarder]

Dammit I forgot about FNP. Damn these Wraithknights keep getting better and better... Tbh, GW has probably tacked a few too many rules onto Gargantuan creatures.

Its more theyve completely undervalued the Wraithknights pts cost.

[Subs]

Not with it now handing +1 to the opponents steal the initiative roll (as a LoW) and being vuln to flyers. Plus it's effectively a choice between that or the Avatar unless you're playing really big games. Still it's nice to see it step up to it's rightful place even if it may slow you down to start.

I was a little miffed about Warlocks becoming a conclave, then I realised you could taken more then one conclave and more than two Farseers . . . lol

It's gonna be nice having Banshee's back, Hawks had better have kept Sky Leap and their ability to drop pies, liking the sound of their anti flyer attack though.

IMO knocking Wraiths back to elites only deals with the whole D'pocolypse thing, glad Blades seem to be getting Rage. Questions need to be answered about taking the auxilary formations in addition to CAD's though cause i guess Iyanden Players are going to want to field as few live Eldar units as possible.

Vypers just got playable again and I've been wanting squadrons of Grav tanks for ages so that ones just a winner with me. And the Wave Serpent . . . bwahahahahahahaha, is far as i can work out barring the whole one shot thing and no more twin linking (which are both understandable and mean little to me) it just got better. 24" is a workable range on a fast skimmer and it's doing 6-8 hits as pretty much standard.

Am left wondering how Forge World units fit in to this new Host structure though. My Firestorm is feeling alienated.

[daboarder]

you do know that LoW dont give the enemy +1 to steal anymore right?

[Defenestratus]

Haven't seen this posted yet.

via Iuchiban (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page69) 4-18-2015

Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.

Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.

Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost.
Exarch powers, as we all know them are gone. Now all aspects get a new ability for free. Exarchs get another one (free as well). And they have 2W.

Autarchs are pretty much the same.
Yes. If the shield is fired, you lose it for the rest of the game.

Dire Avengers: Overwatch at BS2 OR get counter attack and stubborn
Exarch: 4++

Howling banshees: +3" when running or assaulting. Ignore I penalties when assaulting through difficult terrain. Fear. No Overwatch allowed when Banshees assault
Exarch: Units in CC with the Banshees have -2L

Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the fire or assault.
Exarch: During a challenge compare I values. Exarch gets +1A for each point his I is better tan his oponent.

Fire Dragons: +1 on the vehicle damage chart.
Exarch: Once per turn, may reroll one to hit, to wound or to penetrare roll

Swooping Hawks: If the move over a flier, every modl gets one special attack that hits on 4+, S4, AP4, Haywire. They move 18"
Exarch: His unit does not scatter if DS

Warp Spiders: They may jump during the opponent's shooting phase. If after the jum, the spiders are out of LoS or reach, firing unit cannot choose another target.
Exarch: His unit reroll all LD tests

Shining Spears: 4+ cover sabe
Exarch: Reroll to wound vs MC and rerolls to penétrate

Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3

[Siris Le Osiris]

Well that makes Farseers actually pretty good again rather then dreaming of being Tigurius

[eldargal]

No Overwatch against Banshees?!

Love the new exarch power system, hope they take advantage of simpler system to introduce different shrines wtih their own powers in any future craftworld supplements.

[Houghten]

you do know that LoW dont give the enemy +1 to steal anymore right?

When did Escalation stop being valid? It's still on sale...

[Aldavaer]

Not sure if it has already made this thread but iuchiban also said exarch so are now 2W.

[Charon]

When did Escalation stop being valid? It's still on sale...

Sure it is still valid. But you only get the steal bonus, the special WL table and the changed victory conditions if you play a game of ESCALATION, not in any game.
And since escalation did nothing but allow to play a LoW (which is now a standard slot in any FOC) it is not played anymore.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm wondering if the Aspect powers are inherent, or Exarch upgrades.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Either way, I'd gladly pay points for some of those abilities. Screwing your opponent's shooting phase? Yes please Mr Warp Spider.

[Charon]

Either way, I'd gladly pay points for some of those abilities. Screwing your opponent's shooting phase? Yes please Mr Warp Spider.

You do not need to. This one is free... the exarch just lets you reroll Ld.
Same for Banshees for example. Everything is free, just the -2 Ld in melee is from the Exarch.

[Subs]

you do know that LoW dont give the enemy +1 to steal anymore right?

Somebodies cherry picking rules. If there's a LoW on the table, you play LoW rules. No if's, no buts, LoW's mean LoW rules as detailed in Escalation, just like the LoW reference says in the 7th Edition rules, you can play without Escalation if you don't have it but it's pretty clear through the whole game, if you want to play LoW's, it's best to get Escalation and use the rules there.

[Charon]

BRB only mentions Escalation as a source of rules for specific LoW. You do not need Escalation to field one, the slot is in the basic CAD.
Also a lot of Codices nowadays come with different LoW not to be found anywhere in Escalation.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Are the exarchs an inherent part of the unit or an upgrade like before?

Loving the thought of banshees not being over watched, same thing with 2W exarchs!

[ShadowcatX]

I believe they are still an upgrade, but much more likely to be worth it now.

[Defenestratus]

I'm wondering if the Aspect powers are inherent, or Exarch upgrades.

You buy the exarch, you get the power apparently.

[Defenestratus]

Today's Misfire. I *might* have relayed to Lexington that "yeah, this codex is nothing new to us Eldar players..." and he ran with it...

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/bolsmisfire34.png

[Haighus]

Heheh, nice parody of the grief cycle.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

As an Eldar player I love everything about this dex.

Although; I can really relate to the comic strip. I actually chuckled out loud at the Starbucks. And my fiancé and a couple of other customers were all just like...o_ô

But again I feel like so much of that type stigma comes from the Crowd that doesn't really play friendlies and are more about max-mini lists. I won't be fielding 3 WKs unless it's a huge point game, and my WG will only be played in a pre-approved game or I'll just have an alternative list for people who grief about it.

But in my gaming experience I don't usually play those guys more than once anyways.

I wonder how many points the Claw and Executioner are, any word on mirror sword changes?
Same with the dire sword? SO many questions that need to be spoiled!! xD

[Erik Setzer]

Somebodies cherry picking rules. If there's a LoW on the table, you play LoW rules. No if's, no buts, LoW's mean LoW rules as detailed in Escalation, just like the LoW reference says in the 7th Edition rules, you can play without Escalation if you don't have it but it's pretty clear through the whole game, if you want to play LoW's, it's best to get Escalation and use the rules there.

There's no "cherry picking rules" here. Escalation is an optional supplement for specific types of games. The Lord of War rules in there got replaced by the rulebook. The FAQ/Errata for Escalation clearly states rules such as +1 for Seize the Initiative rolls and rolling on the LoW chart are only used in Escalation missions:

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Escalation_EN.pdf

The majority of the book is obsolete. Yes, it's still on the shelves. Doesn't matter. Stronghold Assault also tells you to ignore all the rules for buildings and use the rulebook. The Imperial Knights codex tells you to replace all super-heavy rules with the ones in the rulebook, and even changes the structure of the Imperial Knight formation.

Doesn't matter that they're still on shelves, 7th edition obsoleted all of their core rules within half a year (or two months in the Knights' case) of their release, and GW shows no interest in spending money to correct the books that they're still printing, instead figuring people will look online to find FAQ and errata to understand why their book has conflicting rules with the rulebook (and a lot of people, of course, won't think to do that... but hey, a "solution" exists, and since it does, why spend money to stop confusing players and inconveniencing them?).

[Hal]

O.K. I've absorbed all the information from the new codex and as an Eldar player i agree that it's power level is way above the rest of the other books.
Generally I like the changes (except the scatterbikes) cause they have flavor and seem like a lot of fun, but I greatly disagree with the pricing of stuff.
I won't play scatterbikes but to be honest, I would love to play formations, I want to play a wraithknight, maybe even some wraithguard here and there. I finally see so many possible lists and builds to play which I really like!
Now I have a question for the complainers... Since I do agree with you, please tell me what YOU think the solution to this problem should be?
Would you simply refuse games with me? Would you give me restrictions? House rules? I've already been thinking about giving opponents +150 pts in case I field a WK for example, but I'm not sure if that's a good way to work around the problem since everybody would have their own (and probably different) opinion about the pricing. That's why prices and rules should be written in stone by a competent designer with perfect sense for balance so all the disagreeing players can just stick to them. That's obviously not the case... So what now? I want to play, but I'm sick of feeling guilty when I win because I play Eldar.
Should we just play by tournament rules in friendly games? Would that make it even? If not, what would?

[Mr Mystery]

I'm going to trust my opponents understanding that I don't play Powergamers twice, unless we've agreed a Beardfest between us.

[Tomgar]

O.K. I've absorbed all the information from the new codex and as an Eldar player i agree that it's power level is way above the rest of the other books.
Generally I like the changes (except the scatterbikes) cause they have flavor and seem like a lot of fun, but I greatly disagree with the pricing of stuff.
I won't play scatterbikes but to be honest, I would love to play formations, I want to play a wraithknight, maybe even some wraithguard here and there. I finally see so many possible lists and builds to play which I really like!
Now I have a question for the complainers... Since I do agree with you, please tell me what YOU think the solution to this problem should be?
Would you simply refuse games with me? Would you give me restrictions? House rules? I've already been thinking about giving opponents +150 pts in case I field a WK for example, but I'm not sure if that's a good way to work around the problem since everybody would have their own (and probably different) opinion about the pricing. That's why prices and rules should be written in stone by a competent designer with perfect sense for balance so all the disagreeing players can just stick to them. That's obviously not the case... So what now? I want to play, but I'm sick of feeling guilty when I win because I play Eldar.
Should we just play by tournament rules in friendly games? Would that make it even? If not, what would?


Sorry mate, but I just wouldn't play against you. It's cool that people are saying "hey, I won't take the most broken stuff!" but that ignores the fact that pretty much every other unit is better than equivalents from other Codices. I'm not an uber-competitive gamer, but I still think games should be challenging and fun for both players and playing against these new Eldar just sounds like a horrible grind instead of a fun, balanced game. I feel for Eldar players that feel guilty, but I'm not going to play a game that I likely won't enjoy.

[Mr Mystery]

Am I having a funny five minutes, or did two posts just disappear?

[40kGamer]

Am I having a funny five minutes, or did two posts just disappear?

Hitting the bottle today are we?

[Defenestratus]

Sorry mate, but I just wouldn't play against you. It's cool that people are saying "hey, I won't take the most broken stuff!" but that ignores the fact that pretty much every other unit is better than equivalents from other Codices. I'm not an uber-competitive gamer, but I still think games should be challenging and fun for both players and playing against these new Eldar just sounds like a horrible grind instead of a fun, balanced game. I feel for Eldar players that feel guilty, but I'm not going to play a game that I likely won't enjoy.

I refuse to feel guilty about something I had nothing to do with. I've been playing Eldar since 2nd edition and I couldn't be happier... you know why?

Because for the first time since 1993 I feel like I can take any unit in the book and not feel like I've shortchanged myself. You know when whats-his-face does the "good, the bad and the ugly" of this book, he's going to have a really hard time saying "these units suck and here's why". This means that the book is overall pretty internally balanced. About the only thing I really don't think is worth consideration from what I've seen is the Autarch, and guardians still suck but they are the key to unlocking the warhost.

I wish all of the books were written so that the players don't have to spam 3 units or so and then fill in the rest of their army with a bunch of bad decisions. The only one that comes close is the Necrons book. I'm hoping that the books that come out in the near future will be as great for their players as Eldar players are feeling right now. To think that after next weekend, there's actually a tough decision to be made between scorpions, banshees and wraithblades! To think that there's a hard choice to be made between falcons, reapers and war walkers.... I didn't think I'd ever see the day where at least half of the aspect shrines didn't just stink on ice. Is that what it takes these days for people to accept a codex as legitimate in their eyes? Units that just suck?

As for the jetbikes - they seem to be over the top indeed. I also remember a bunch of youtube videos being posted online about daemonology summoning and how abusive that would be... I still haven't had a single unit of daemons summoned in a game I've played....much less spamming them. I've also failed to run across an unbound list where its nothing but cheesey beardy units like 15 flying hive tyrants or 10 greater daemons, or 20 leman russ tanks (although I'd really like to play against that list). I'd like to think that just because we as players CAN abuse something doesn't mean we WILL. Especially when both people playing know that its supposed to be a good time had by all. Personally, I'm going to stick with a squad of 9 jetbikes with three shuriken cannons because that gives me the flexibility to run 1 big squad or three small squads and keep them cheap - since there are so many other toys that I want to put in my army that are all of a sudden exciting to use. Personally I'm salivating at the thought of a bunch of fire dragons in falcons - that sounds like something thats fun..

- - - Updated - - -


And I got to play with car body resin.

It's well sticky, but easy enough to work with. Ground down and rebuilt rusty areas of the rear wheel arches. Next week? Replace the anti-roll link bar pin things, finish the body work. Should be able to do that whilst the resin cures.

After that, off to the pros for a new exhaust manifold thing and a lambda sensor, rounding off with a new MOT, and then The Beast shall be back on the road, and receive its spangly new Mechanicus decals.

Better take next Monday off really.

Work on boats... less dirt and rust, more resin off-gas and fiberglass dust!

[Charon]

I wish all of the books were written so that the players don't have to spam 3 units or so and then fill in the rest of their army with a bunch of bad decisions.

But they are not. And while they are not, they will have a bad time no matter how "nice" you try to field your army.


I'm hoping that the books that come out in the near future will be as great for their players as Eldar players are feeling right now.

The near future.
In direct comparison we had recently a terribad Khorne Daemonkin codex which does not even have a fraction of that power level. How long till tey revise it? 2 years of getting bashed? 4 years?
Same with Dark Eldar. Everything Eldar can field is either more mobile, has more firepower, more special rules, more durable and on top of it... is a lot cheaper too.
I play both sides and to be honest I can not imagine a single scenario where the Dark Eldar player will have a fun game against ANYTHING eldar can field.

[AnEnemy]

If there's one valuable take away from all the rumors surrounding this book its that there are a lot of really terrible people that play this game.

It is a game right? It's not your life? You won't explode if you're not approaching a table with a 75% chance of winning the game?

I play Dark Eldar/Eldar allies. I've yet to turn down an opponent because I was likely going to lose. That comic strip really hit the nail on the head.

Irrational. You're irrational. Jumping at shadows and what ifs. You all remind me of a few guys at my LGW that are all smiles and giggles when I bring out my DE. Then they start talking @@$% when they see one wave serpent with ten Avengers, three jetbikes, three Dark Reapers and a single Farseer.

[daboarder]

So much this.
In a world of 4+ RP and 5 Flying Nurgle summoner DPs and grav stars and Ad-Lance; I'm amazed people are still surprised by these things. Everyone is so used to getting crapped on, justifiably so, that they can't fathom an army getting a codex that isn't as poorly written as CSM, Orks or DA. I am the FARTHEST thing from an apologist, I ***** plenty about their shenanigans; but I would rather have armies with a bunch of cool stuff than armies that have like 4-5 great things in their whole book. Which includes the last Eldar book. The last two full codicies written in the style they have shifted to; which would be Necrons and now Eldar both are full of useful, flavorful and powerful things. People complain about Necrons a ton. Of course they'll complain about Eldar a ton. It's becoming a have vs have-not. Well, unfortunately the game is always going to have some have-nots. At least they MIGHT be going in the right direction across the board at a faster pace than previous editions.

You can either keep playing and adapt some to the new conditions, or you can give up. Ostracizing a whole group of people based on playing an army they didn't write the rules for and play because they like the aesthetic or the synergy or the fluff or even some of the rules is the wrong answer. Those of us that like a challenge will enjoy making things work against them, and also look forward to playing with the bunch of units they made playable again in my own space elf collection.

People who refuse to play you based on the codex you pull out? I don't want to play them either, because steamrolling someone who has no confidence in their ability to play you isn't fun either.

.....well said keshin. I dont think its fair to hate on Eldar Players just because of the book they got, hate on the players that will abuse said book/complain about the few units that may be bad in said book/ Games Workshop inability to balance the game.

However I can see this book fragmenting the community even further, and thats sad because every time that happens we lose more and more people and the boards get quieter and quieter.

edit: I would however argue that the idea that GW was going in the right direction and 'balancing" the game is a fallacy, they have now broken the mold that the early 7th ed/late 6th ed books were written in and those books will suffer for it, and probably suffer for it again next cycle too because they will be released in the same relative point again and again.

[Charon]

The last two full codicies written in the style they have shifted to; which would be Necrons and now Eldar both are full of useful, flavorful and powerful things.

You forgot Codex: Khorne Daemonkin in between which is nowhere near this power level and has loads of useless stuff.
I do not think there would be as much "hate" if EVERY codex would tend to the Necron/Eldar powerlevel. Sadly we had Daemonkin and Dark Eldar which went exactly the opposit direction.

[Kelshin]

You forgot Codex: Khorne Daemonkin in between which is nowhere near this power level and has loads of useless stuff.
I do not think there would be as much "hate" if EVERY codex would tend to the Necron/Eldar powerlevel. Sadly we had Daemonkin and Dark Eldar which went exactly the opposit direction.

Not a full codex; just a mish-mash of units from CSM and Daemons with some rules added in. Harlies and Skitarii are also not written like that. Also not full codicies.

I played DE religiously for 3 editions, and they got shafted hard. I have a good deal of money and time wrapped into miniatures that haven't touched the table in like a year, and probably won't. They got shafted hard, there is no doubt. It is what it is. Not the first, nor the last time it will happen. I'm much more interested in seeing what they end up doing with Space Marines or whichever "full" codex they next decide to do which will hopefully show a trend. I can happily admit, of course, that big GTs are very very likely to be completely dominated by Eldar. Nature of the beast.

Edit 2 : I think i worded what I meant poorly. When I said Daemonkin isnt a full codex, what I mean to say is that it is VERY obvious that the design team went into it saying "We are going to make a combination codex out of these two existing ones." instead of "We're going to revise this faction." If they changed any of the units for DK in any meaningful way, they would invalidate the ones in the existing codex. Can't exactly do that without rewriting those other TWO as well along side it. I was not surprised one single tiny bit by the fact that nothing really changed. It won't till those main books get a relook. What remains to be seen is if they will keep stuff neutered when they do THAT based on the DK book series existing. I sincerely hope not for all those Chaos players.

[Charon]

It is a full codex in the same style as Necron and Eldar and not written like Harlies and Skitarii.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I feel like this has devolved into a salt throwing /:

Have we learned anything new about the HQ war gear? And aspect specific war gear? Like what all can the Autarch take?

[Charon]

I feel like this has devolved into a salt throwing /:

Have we learned anything new about the HQ war gear? And aspect specific war gear? Like what all can the Autarch take?

Roughly the same. Mantle of the laughing god gone, and a pistol went in instead.
Ghost helmets for farseers still the same and they may now also reroll their psi tests.

[AnEnemy]

Yeah I guess thats one way to see it..

Wasn't that fun when I stomped you turn 2? Here have a beer while I kick your *** again... but don't worry... in about 4 years your codex will be up the same level. Meanwhile just enjoy getting beaten up. Did I mention the beer? Loser pays.



Nope, but I think asking for a 50% chance is not unreasonable. While the vocal opinion seems to be "be glad that you have 10 % !!"



Why the need to ally?
Are you gonna explode if you do not have a 50% win chance?


Why ally? Because I like the combined Eldar race's model range and having a small detachment of my favorite CW Eldar models makes it possible for me to take what I want out of my DE as opposed to spamming five warriors in as many Raiders as I can fit into a list?

Not to mention I like having an HQ that's more than a glorified transport.

Oh yeah and I like Biel-Tan.

I'm such a bad person!

[spagunk]

It's going to be tough for my Blood Angels to compete with these new Eldar :(

[Dont-Be-Haten]

It's going to be tough for my Blood Angels to compete with these new Eldar :(

Dude. Fragrionaut is soooo good against a lot of this stuff though. not to mention Tacticals with Heavy Flamers and grav-guns...I mean, still have sternguard and can ally Nilla Marines with Centurions Hurricane Bolters and grav-guns, You got Fast Vindies and baal preds that can put a dent into a lot of stuff, but the internet says they aren't good so they must not be, too if you want them. You still have loads of options. The Boys in Red are my 2nd favorite army in 40k. Not to mention Death Company with Jump Packs and Bolters.

You should be fine.

[Defenestratus]

You sound like an awesome host. You ever come through Oklahoma and want to catch a game, let me know.

I might be moving to DFW in July so I might be close!!!

In the absence of more rumors, I will say that I feel bad for people who have to play against opponents who only care about winning. Its a truly sad state of affairs when a set of game rules can drive a wedge between people with a common interest in tabletop wargaming. I've not witnessed vitriol like this in a long long time, and yes - I recognize that I was once part of that choir in days gone by. I think that this book is the manifestation of the design studios "rule of cool" mentality - and its going to require the competitive crowd to change those rules, come up with their own, or embrace them as they are and learn to live with Eldar being able to kill anything in the game.

This book is both righteous and damning, good and evil, light and dark. It gives US, the players, the ability to either make a fluffy potpourri of different units that are equally effective in their given role, but it also opens the door for loathsome behavior. As someone who prefers to see the "glass half full" in people, I am seeing this book as the manifestations of my dreams about what the Eldar look like when they go to war. And that makes me pretty dang happy.

[ShadowcatX]

I might be moving to DFW in July so I might be close!!!

I've started getting down that way as well, so if you do, let me know.

[Defenestratus]

Dude. Fragrionaut is soooo good against a lot of this stuff though. not to mention Tacticals with Heavy Flamers and grav-guns...I mean, still have sternguard and can ally Nilla Marines with Centurions Hurricane Bolters and grav-guns, You got Fast Vindies and baal preds that can put a dent into a lot of stuff, but the internet says they aren't good so they must not be, too if you want them. You still have loads of options. The Boys in Red are my 2nd favorite army in 40k. Not to mention Death Company with Jump Packs and Bolters.

You should be fine.

Indeed... drop podding marines are the best solution to a lot of the Eldar arsenal. Jetbikes are quick and maneuverable indeed... but they cannot outrun a drop pod. The BA stormraven formation where you can deepstrike and assault the same turn is something that will really give eldar some fits as well. Finally, dropping dreadnoughts all over the place could also prove problematic for Eldar since, unlike space marines, not all of our units have anti armor capabilities.

[DarkLink]

What are Dreadnoughts going to do to eldar? Put a couple melta shots into vehicle, most of which miss or are blocked by cover saves, and the ones that do get through are reduced to glances? Then the Eldar start slinging the D and the dreadnought army just evaporates.

[Defenestratus]

What are Dreadnoughts going to do to eldar? Put a couple melta shots into vehicle, most of which miss or are blocked by cover saves, and the ones that do get through are reduced to glances? Then the Eldar start slinging the D and the dreadnought army just evaporates.

Heavy flamers. All of the BA one's come with the options to replace the storm bolters with heavy flamers - and Eldar HATE heavy flamers.

[Charon]

Interesting... never ever had a problem with heavy flamers. Neither my Warpspiders, nor my Wraith constructs, nor my jetbikes, Serpents or Nightspinners are afraid in the slightest.

[Defenestratus]

Interesting... never ever had a problem with heavy flamers. Neither my Warpspiders, nor my Wraith constructs, nor my jetbikes, Serpents or Nightspinners are afraid in the slightest.

Funny, I always thought the Eldar codex contained more than just the options with 3+ saves.

[Charon]

Funny, I always thought the Eldar codex contained more than just the options with 3+ saves.

It does! All safe and sound in transports... like in every Eldar story I read.
And to be fair, most options with a 4+ or worse do not fear the flamer either as they are either bound in melee anyways (banshees), far to mobile to catch (Hawks) or just too unimportant to dedicate heavy flamers to their destruction (Guardians, Dire Avengers, Rangers)
Most of the options in the book do actually have a 3+ armor (Reapers, Spiders, Scorpions, Jetbikes, Spears, Dragons, all Wraith Constructs) or they are vehicles.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I mean frag cannon is S6 assault 2 template and rends... And then you have a heavy flamer also. That's a lot of saves on a 3+

[ShadowcatX]

It does! All safe and sound in transports... like in every Eldar story I read.
And to be fair, most options with a 4+ or worse do not fear the flamer either as they are either bound in melee anyways (banshees), far to mobile to catch (Hawks) or just too unimportant to dedicate heavy flamers to their destruction (Guardians, Dire Avengers, Rangers)
Most of the options in the book do actually have a 3+ armor (Reapers, Spiders, Scorpions, Jetbikes, Spears, Dragons, all Wraith Constructs) or they are vehicles.

Yup. 'Tis a pity the banshees start the game in combat and the transports are unkillable and that hawks can't have a drop pod land anywhere close to them. /sigh. What a pity, if only. . .

That said, Eldar are really a 3+ army, we just hide it well.

[Lord Mayhem]

Funny, I always thought the Eldar codex contained more than just the options with 3+ saves.

Oh don't be silly, everyone knows that no elder player will field anything except D spam and Scatterlaser bikes again /sarc

I find it "curious" that the doomsayers automatically assume that all Eldar players will automatically spam the "OP" units. By curious, I mean insulting of course. The mere fact it's possible does not mean it will happen. The same argument could be used to say everyone is a thief, because they could steal things. Bit silly, right?

I've fielded a bike centric list for several years, and see no reason to change it. I'm not going to switch them all to Scatter lasers, because that completely changes the way they play, to a style I don't want. For many(most) long term Eldar players the style of their army is much more important than the "best" unit.

The rest of my lists were built mainly around aspect warriors, which "teh interwebs" assure me were bad choices. Fortunately for me I never paid attention, since it's mostly opinion. I had fun with them, sometimes won, sometimes didn't.

[Charon]

And when was the last time a drop pod did land next to your hawks just to set them aflame? Sure you CAN do it.
But thats like saying "mass lascannons kill guardians easy!". Sure they do. It is just not worth the efford.

[Defenestratus]

It does! All safe and sound in transports... like in every Eldar story I read.
And to be fair, most options with a 4+ or worse do not fear the flamer either as they are either bound in melee anyways (banshees), far to mobile to catch (Hawks) or just too unimportant to dedicate heavy flamers to their destruction (Guardians, Dire Avengers, Rangers)
Most of the options in the book do actually have a 3+ armor (Reapers, Spiders, Scorpions, Jetbikes, Spears, Dragons, all Wraith Constructs) or they are vehicles.

If you can't "catch" a mobile unit with a drop pod, then well, you have other problems that I can't help you with! :D

[Path Walker]

If someone brings out a list that you think you won't have a chance against, why not just say "Hey, i don't think this would be fun for me, can we change things up a bit?", this applies both ways and to all codexes. Its a social hobby so talk to the opponent.

[Charon]

If you can't "catch" a mobile unit with a drop pod, then well, you have other problems that I can't help you with! :D

If you really use a drop pod to catch a 5 man unit with S3 weapons as a space marine which is around the points of the pod alone, you might have some other issues.

[Path Walker]

If you really use a drop pod to catch a 5 man unit with S3 weapons as a space marine which is around the points of the pod alone, you might have some other issues.

Are you really that lacking in imagination that you can't imagine anything outside of the scenario you've read that the "competitive" players have laid out for you?

All your tactical and strategic opinions are based around the idea that x is bad and y is good and nothing else matters. Its a big game with a near infinite number of variables.

[ShadowcatX]

And when was the last time a drop pod did land next to your hawks just to set them aflame? Sure you CAN do it.
But thats like saying "mass lascannons kill guardians easy!". Sure they do. It is just not worth the efford.

Given that hawks haven't been worth fielding in years? Quite a while. But why complain about how difficult it is to kill a unit, if that unit isn't worth the effort of killing?

[Erik Setzer]

Given that hawks haven't been worth fielding in years? Quite a while. But why complain about how difficult it is to kill a unit, if that unit isn't worth the effort of killing?

Hawks aren't worth fielding? Eh? Are we not talking about the unit that can move 12", shoot 30 shots (even if they are S3), then move another D6"? A unit all armed with haywire grenades who will jack up a Knight's day? All for just 160 points (plus Exarch options).

If that's a unit that "isn't worth taking," then clearly there are some issues in the game.

[Charon]

I find it "curious" that the doomsayers automatically assume that all Eldar players will automatically spam the "OP" units.

This is inevitable when ALL units in your codex are strictly better than the units in another codex.
Just compare Eldar to Dark Eldar. The last Eldar Codex was already a pretty one-sided struggle for DE. What do you think will the new buffed one do.

Don't get me wrong. I play Eldar too and I love them. But the amount of people who try to downplay the amazing buffs in this book is astounding.


Given that hawks haven't been worth fielding in years?

WHAAAAT? :eek:

Yeah I guess their ability to get every mission objective they want made them absolutely worthless... which could be the reason that we saw multiples of them in tournies last year.

And to be fair Desenestratus started the argument by claiming that heavy flamers are the bane of Eldar because only a very few units do have a 3+ save.

[Defenestratus]

Given that hawks haven't been worth fielding in years? Quite a while. But why complain about how difficult it is to kill a unit, if that unit isn't worth the effort of killing?

I'd just clarify that Hawks haven't been worth taking because - they competed in the CAD for other FA choices - namely warp spiders - and other units that were "duh" choices. Especially since our anti-air came almost exclusively from the FA slot with CH's.

The new book makes that choice a lot harder as both seem to be really good at what they do. I admit that hawks were potent in the last codex, but I always felt spiders were better (because in part to their 3+ armor)

[acprince]

every time someone threatens not to play elder players, I smile and think about how many more free gaming tables will be available for the people that will, or just for us elder players to play each other. I didn't get all bent out of shape walking into a gaming store with 64 flavors of space marines, and I wouldn't walk out of one because it had 64 flavors of space elves on the tables. I play almost all of the different factions, the main reason I choose to play one faction over the other is to compliment the armies of the partner I have been pared with, or team, I tend to play more 2v2, and 3v3 then one on one games, I love all my little minions though, no matter how pointy their ears are.

[40kGamer]

Hawks have been worthwhile for a long time. I wouldn't leave home without them. :p

[DanTheGameMan]

I am super excited about the new changes. The "super-crazy-OP" stuff isn't going to be what I focus my army around, nor will it dictate how I want to play.
In fact, this edition is promising to allow for me to build as fluffy and army as I want and actually have it be competitive in most cases.
I'm so excited to give my units that I haven't played with in a while, such as my Swooping Hawks and Dark Reapers, some much-needed attention!


I think the doom-sayers really need to take into account that, while there will undoubtedly be some players who pull the OP-spam crap, most of us are reasonable, fun-loving people who want to play the game. Just reading this thread and by using common sense, I know I'm not alone in having a greater desire to play with the army I specifically want to play with, rather than spamming some soulless, calculations-driven, fun-killing, cheese-festival of wraith-spam and bike swarm.

[Erik Setzer]

I think the doom-sayers really need to take into account that, while there will undoubtedly be some players who pull the OP-spam crap, most of us are reasonable, fun-loving people who want to play the game. Just reading this thread and by using common sense, I know I'm not alone in having a greater desire to play with the army I specifically want to play with, rather than spamming some soulless, calculations-driven, fun-killing, cheese-festival of wraith-spam and bike swarm.

I'm not concerned about people spamming the same units. I just look at how good all of it is, look at my own army without that level of awesome in it, and remember that if I want to play a game that's fun and competitive for both players, it needs to be something else, and I should only play 40K when I'm okay with being blown off the table (and never in a depressed mood, because that will only make the one-sided matches that much worse).

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm not concerned about people spamming the same units. I just look at how good all of it is, look at my own army without that level of awesome in it, and remember that if I want to play a game that's fun and competitive for both players, it needs to be something else, and I should only play 40K when I'm okay with being blown off the table (and never in a depressed mood, because that will only make the one-sided matches that much worse).

This is why you play in campaigns or month long battles that gain xp bonuses and the like. Problem solved.

[DarkLink]

Hey, if you intentionally write a soft list with easy counters because you find it fun, good for you. There's nothing wrong with that. It's pretty irrelevant to how disgusting competitive eldar are shaping up to be, though.

[Charon]

I think the doom-sayers really need to take into account that, while there will undoubtedly be some players who pull the OP-spam crap, most of us are reasonable, fun-loving people who want to play the game.

The problem here is, this depends on the army you play against and your assessment of "reasonable, fun and OP"

You might find your Dark Reapers enjoyable, a Dark Eldar player might find a unit that has a 3+, ignores jink saves, comes with BS5 and may reroll not really enjoyable when his army mostly consists of AV10 vehicles that use jink as their only defense mechanism.
The point here is you don#t even NEED to spam jetbikes or wraith constructs because the rest of the codex is also strictly better.

[ShadowcatX]

Hawks aren't worth fielding? Eh? Are we not talking about the unit that can move 12", shoot 30 shots (even if they are S3), then move another D6"? A unit all armed with haywire grenades who will jack up a Knight's day? All for just 160 points (plus Exarch options).

If that's a unit that "isn't worth taking," then clearly there are some issues in the game.

A unit of expensive, T3, Armor 4+ models, that can shoot S3 shots with high AP. And haywire grenades that only matter if they get into combat (or they can throw a single grenade)? Yeah, pretty much not worth fielding. Haywire grenades were really their biggest advantage, and we had more efficient and survivable anti-tank options that didn't lose all value against multiple armies.


Yeah I guess their ability to get every mission objective they want made them absolutely worthless... which could be the reason that we saw multiples of them in tournies last year.

You realize Eldar don't exactly have a problem capturing mission objectives, right? And when was the last time we saw multiples of them in a high ranking tourny list post 7th edition?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/645028.page

The reason I hate DakkaDakka

[ShadowcatX]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/645028.page

The reason I hate DakkaDakka

Sadly he's spewing his filth across multiple forums. Even sadder people are joining him on it.

[Haighus]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/645028.page

The reason I hate DakkaDakka
Yeah, he posted here on BOLS too a few days ago.

Having just checked back, he posted here before he posted on Dakka.

[40kGamer]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/645028.page

The reason I hate DakkaDakka

And the funny thing is the Eldar Codex probably will not change for ~3-4 years now.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

The thing is, if you tactically cannot beat the Eldar then really why are you bothering to play this game? Sure, numbers and dice are main factors in this game, but you need to be able to overcome that and outskill your opponent. I have been playing this game for well over a decade, I would consider myself a veteran at this point. I am already conjuring ways of conquering Eldar armies. Admittedly, I play Eldar, but not all the time.

At the end of the day, you need to pay as much attention to what is actually happening on the field, rather than what it says on paper.

[Haighus]

Also, I wouldn't be too worried, the guys started a thread, got 13,000 views, over 500 replies and just 4 people have joined his cause. Seems like a bit of a flop to me.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I just hate that infectious negative mindset, it reminds me of UKIP! :/

[TeflonBilly]

O.K. I've absorbed all the information from the new codex and as an Eldar player i agree that it's power level is way above the rest of the other books
Now I have a question for the complainers... Since I do agree with you, please tell me what YOU think the solution to this problem should be?

In a perfect game, strong units have a proportionally large cost. Therefore, the easiest solution to "fix" OP units is to increase their cost. Unfortunately, doing this unit by unit is complex and hard to gain a community-wide consensus. I think we can make a pretty good fix by adjusting point costs by codex.
I suggest Eldar players enjoy the entirety of their codex, guilt-free, by agreeing to pay 25% more in points for all of their units.
I think it would be great if, as a community, we could agree on a scaling factor for each codex. DA and other soft codices pay normal cost. Stronger codices get an overall point tax.

[Defenestratus]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/645028.page

The reason I hate DakkaDakka

That dude needs a hobby. Like... a different one.

[DrBored]

And the funny thing is the Eldar Codex probably will not change for ~3-4 years now.

Exactly. Which means a lot of other Codices will get responses to what the Eldar Codex has now.

And here's something else to consider. With the boost to the Aspect Warriors, GW wants them to sell. They not only want to sell the models that already exist to reduce inventory, they want them to continue to be viable for when they release plastic models for them in a splash release in the future.

Cult Mechanicus, Space Marines, and new Imperial Knights are coming, all of which will have answers to the Eldar power creep. In my mind, nerfing Wave Serpents was the only thing they needed to do, and they did that, and so I'm happy.

[Deadlift]

And the funny thing is the Eldar Codex probably will not change for ~3-4 years now.

I don't know to be honest, how olds the previous codex ;)*

*disclaimer

This was an attempt at humour, not to be taken as nastiness.

[Arkhan Land]

Exactly. Which means a lot of other Codices will get responses to what the Eldar Codex has now.

And here's something else to consider. With the boost to the Aspect Warriors, GW wants them to sell. They not only want to sell the models that already exist to reduce inventory, they want them to continue to be viable for when they release plastic models for them in a splash release in the future.

Cult Mechanicus, Space Marines, and new Imperial Knights are coming, all of which will have answers to the Eldar power creep. In my mind, nerfing Wave Serpents was the only thing they needed to do, and they did that, and so I'm happy.

I dunno, letting me no-scatter deepstrike three falcons is kind of retarded. I admit that as an eldar player, no lies, that ****s gonna break some hearts. and by hearts I mean un-covered HQs and low armour values.

but yes Im sure were about to see some crazy ****. if this mythical puma exists I bet money it has a short ranged D-weapon

or that one of these two new knights has some sort of ranged D-blaster or the ability to kick it with some High IC monstrouse creatures

[eosgreen]

so are there no aspect warriors coming in wave two? is there a wave two? i read a plastic avatar was coming which, in conjunction with my plans for a beil tan NON CHEESY aspect army is required....

[Charon]

Cult Mechanicus, Space Marines, and new Imperial Knights are coming, all of which will have answers to the Eldar power creep. In my mind, nerfing Wave Serpents was the only thing they needed to do, and they did that, and so I'm happy.

Meanwhile Dark Eldar and Daemonkin can go sit in the corner and wait another 4 years till they get something that can answer back, right?
I really like my Eldar but currently there is NOTHING DE can do about anything Eldar are able to field. And while Jetbikes and WKnights are the worst offenders, they are not the only ones. Even units you would not call "OP" but "good" transform into "extremely powerful" if the codex you play against anly consists of "weak" and "ok" units.

[Houghten]

so are there no aspect warriors coming in wave two? is there a wave two? i read a plastic avatar was coming which, in conjunction with my plans for a beil tan NON CHEESY aspect army is required....

The supposedly Always Accurate, Never Wrong, Have You Read This Thing Explaining How Redirects Work Why Does Everyone Always Complain It's A 404 people say they found something called "Eldar Avatar with Spear." No further word on that though.

Hell, if I worked on GW's web team and saw all this redirect-searching people are doing, I'd be trolling them so hard. I'd make fake redirects for Hrud and Knights Warden and Boris Goldgather and all sorts.

(Edit: when I wrote that, I didn't know someone had found a redirect for a Knight Warden. Ha!)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It's all about Codex: Crab People, the first army to be in all three systems.

[spagunk]

Dude. Fragrionaut is soooo good against a lot of this stuff though. not to mention Tacticals with Heavy Flamers and grav-guns...I mean, still have sternguard and can ally Nilla Marines with Centurions Hurricane Bolters and grav-guns, You got Fast Vindies and baal preds that can put a dent into a lot of stuff, but the internet says they aren't good so they must not be, too if you want them. You still have loads of options. The Boys in Red are my 2nd favorite army in 40k. Not to mention Death Company with Jump Packs and Bolters.

You should be fine.

I have only 1 fragioso in pod. Don't have any heavy flamer tactical marines, don't have any sternguards and don't have an SM codex to ally with. I have a single vindicator and two Baal preds but those almost always get cratered quickly anyway.

The point of my post was that MY Blood Angels will have a tough time with this. BA in general are fine.

[ShadowcatX]

I have only 1 fragioso in pod. Don't have any heavy flamer tactical marines, don't have any sternguards and don't have an SM codex to ally with. I have a single vindicator and two Baal preds but those almost always get cratered quickly anyway.

The point of my post was that MY Blood Angels will have a tough time with this. BA in general are fine.

If you purposefully field a bad list against someone who fields a good list you'll have a hard time regardless of the.codices involved.

[Defenestratus]

I dunno, letting me no-scatter deepstrike three falcons is kind of retarded. I admit that as an eldar player, no lies, that ****s gonna break some hearts. and by hearts I mean un-covered HQs and low armour values.


One has to bear in mind that bubble wrapping against the triplex falcon will be rather easy. A single falcon's footprint is much larger than a drop pod, and fitting three of them anywhere on the table within 4" of each other but >1" away from baddies and terrain (because you don't want your deep striking falcon to immobilize itself - thinking the ghostwalk matrix, if its still there, is required on these guys) while getting within range of letting your dudes do what it is that they need to do isn't going to be the easiest thing to do.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I have only 1 fragioso in pod. Don't have any heavy flamer tactical marines, don't have any sternguards and don't have an SM codex to ally with. I have a single vindicator and two Baal preds but those almost always get cratered quickly anyway.

The point of my post was that MY Blood Angels will have a tough time with this. BA in general are fine.

I don't know what to tell you then man. Fast vendicator has an additional 6" threat range other marines can't have, and Baal preds have 4 S6 rending and 6 S5 shots a turn with a 12" movement. All 3 of which you can keep in reserve if they get shot down so fast...

Every Marine player has sternguard, it's called hey all my sergeants with combi- weapons and special war gear have decided to join into a squad their combinweapons are now fitted with special issue ammo.

Or you go kitbashing. In any case my point is, it's all relative and depending on how you play, things get wonky.

You have options to deal with stuff. That, or you start playing smaller games.

Although here stateside 1750-1850 is "standard" I've been enjoying 1200-1500 point games because of all the point reductions.

Personally I play cypher in my Angels as part of the fluff of my army. So personally, I don't fall into there is a "bad" list.

But then again I don't know what type of gamer you are, so that probably didn't help too much. Someone like me sticks to campaigns that have special rules for each mission, like fighting outside a battle barge in deep space, or kill teams, or the casual games where wonky things just happen.

Here's what I think, you just have good target priorities. If they want to deep strike Falcons with X unit let them. Then drop pod, come in from reserves with pie-plates, or be set up with good LoS blocking terrain. To where they can't do much damage to you. You also have conga-line formations where they can only wound what they can target at max range with each weapon, (unless they changed that rule again) and force jinks which have to be taken before shots are fired to force 6s. You can also put enough shots in them that they fail saves or run 3D6 off the board in turn 1 (which has happened a time or 3). If a 175 point model can alpha strike and cause 20-30 S5-6 with rending, wounds on a 10 squad of jetbikes that costs more and can't jink, but the suicide bait dies next turn is that really a loss? Or if grav-guns from a centurion immobilize a serpent turn1 turning wraith into a turn 3-4 threat with roughly a 15" threat range so you can just out maneuver them, or hitting them with S10 large pies to forcing cover only saves? I know these are all IFs and Buts, but still if people are using the same logic for Eldar why not against it?

And to stay back on the soap box for a minute, there's a dude at our local GW store that plays Dark Eldar, with both the new dex and coven supplement, and has only lost like twice to anyone not named Sean, since I've been going there. Which means he wins way more than he looses. So.../shrug/

I'm just not worried about the power of the Eldar book from a different faction stand point, and SO excited about it from the Eldar point. So back my point, don't worry you'll be fine.

[Erik Setzer]

If you purposefully field a bad list against someone who fields a good list you'll have a hard time regardless of the.codices involved.

I wouldn't say he's "purposefully fielding a bad list." Doesn't sound like it's a terrible list, except that the meta of the game seems to have changed so that you also have to have counters for flyers and super-heavies/GC's and all. A Vindicator, while short-ranged, can do some nice damage, and Baal Pred's, depending on how they're armed, can cause trouble for Eldar units, and actually has the speed to get to them. Can it be a lot nastier? Sure, of course. But there was a time that would have been considered a solid trio of vehicles to have in the army. Can't blame someone for not rushing to replace them, either, because that's an investment of about $200 (or the local currency equivalent).

Trying to be defensive about the Eldar codex by getting offensive about someone else's collection is not really helping the discussion. It just keeps dragging it further and further down to lower levels.

- - - Updated - - -


Meanwhile Dark Eldar and Daemonkin can go sit in the corner and wait another 4 years till they get something that can answer back, right?
I really like my Eldar but currently there is NOTHING DE can do about anything Eldar are able to field. And while Jetbikes and WKnights are the worst offenders, they are not the only ones. Even units you would not call "OP" but "good" transform into "extremely powerful" if the codex you play against anly consists of "weak" and "ok" units.

Ork players say "Hi!"

[Charon]

Ork players say "Hi!"

Poor Orks... only 9th place in LVO (and that is a pure ork list) while the first DE WITH Eldar allies is 29, first pure Dark Eldar is place 101 (there are 4 Orks in front of them) and only place 18 at AdeptiCon with a pure Ork list when the best DE lsit was place 100.
You have my sympathies.

[Lord Mayhem]

Meanwhile Dark Eldar and Daemonkin can go sit in the corner and wait another 4 years till they get something that can answer back, right?

Like the Tau had to wait a long time till they got a new codex? It got left behind in the power creep for a long time. Since it was my other primary army my response was "Guess I'd better improve my skills with what I have" since complaining wasn't going to help


I really like my Eldar but currently there is NOTHING DE can do about anything Eldar are able to field. And while Jetbikes and WKnights are the worst offenders, they are not the only ones. Even units you would not call "OP" but "good" transform into "extremely powerful" if the codex you play against anly consists of "weak" and "ok" units

When I face someone with an attitude like that, I know I'm in for an easy game, since my opponent has already conceded the mental battle. It becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. The army matters, and the dice really matter, but the mental battle is probably the deciding factor (If you and your opponent both think you're going to lose, you will). David Webers "Flag in Exile" has a fairly good description of the concept (in relationship to a sword duel, admittedly)
I've faced almost identical DE armies twice in a row with Eldar (my list really won't change significantly). First time I got stomped. He outplayed me (and outrolled me; I couldn't make an armor save to save my...oh). By the end of his 2nd turn my army was shattered. Second time I won. The dice went my way, he made more errors than I did. Basically the same lists each time. DE can be very effective in the hands of a skilled player, and should have no fear of Wraithguard at all. (Darn poison negating my high T :) )

Arkhan Land observed:
I dunno, letting me no-scatter deepstrike three falcons is kind of retarded. I admit that as an eldar player, no lies, that ****s gonna break some hearts. and by hearts I mean un-covered HQs and low armour values.

Not really worse than 3 Drop pods filled with Devastators or mass Meltaguns dropping in. The "no scatter" is nice, but they're still a squadron and will need a lot of space to get all 3 in, in formation (as I understand the leaks they only can do it as a squadron of 3, and Falcons are not exactly small) and they will be in one area (rather than distributed for maximum effectiveness). Careful use of terrain and troop positioning could make it almost impossible to get them into a good location. Plus you're now looking at close to 500 pts (plus any troops they carry) in an isolated position, with only limited support from the rest of your force. (and you've given up their firepower for at least 1 turn, maybe more if you roll poorly for reserves). Potentially very powerful, but not really sure I'd risk it.
Having said that, for a themed DS army it could be cool; Falcons with 6 man units (Avengers, Dragons, Reapers), Hawks and Spiders and a single Non DS unit ("Forward observers", which would make Rangers the thematic choice) to survive till you can drop in. Really reduce the potential for JB/SD abuse with such a list (since you can't get Wraithguard in a Falcon)

[Erik Setzer]

Poor Orks... only 9th place in LVO (and that is a pure ork list) while the first DE WITH Eldar allies is 29, first pure Dark Eldar is place 101 (there are 4 Orks in front of them) and only place 18 at AdeptiCon with a pure Ork list when the best DE lsit was place 100.
You have my sympathies.

Wow. Must have been an incredibly bad Dark Eldar player. Eh, guess it's not a surprise, since anyone playing a brand of Eldar anyway would just go with Dark Eldar.

Good job using one single data point to try to prove your non-existent point!

[40kGamer]

I don't know to be honest, how olds the previous codex ;)*

*disclaimer

This was an attempt at humour, not to be taken as nastiness.

I'm going off the false hope that they don't release another crap codex in under two years! :p

[ShadowcatX]

Trying to be defensive about the Eldar codex by getting offensive about someone else's collection is not really helping the discussion. It just keeps dragging it further and further down to lower levels.

I was trying to say he'll have problems with a lot of armies, not simply the Eldar.


Ork players say "Hi!"

Didn't orks tie for the highest win percentage in Adepticon?

[Mr Mystery]

Mmmmmmmmmmm.

Misery Measurement.

My fave.

[Path Walker]

I too judge the entire worth of an army based on a tiny and skewed dataset.

[Arkhan Land]

Arkhan Land observed:
Not really worse than 3 Drop pods filled with Devastators or mass Meltaguns dropping in. The "no scatter" is nice, but they're still a squadron and will need a lot of space to get all 3 in, in formation (as I understand the leaks they only can do it as a squadron of 3, and Falcons are not exactly small) and they will be in one area (rather than distributed for maximum effectiveness). Careful use of terrain and troop positioning could make it almost impossible to get them into a good location. Plus you're now looking at close to 500 pts (plus any troops they carry) in an isolated position, with only limited support from the rest of your force. (and you've given up their firepower for at least 1 turn, maybe more if you roll poorly for reserves). Potentially very powerful, but not really sure I'd risk it.
Having said that, for a themed DS army it could be cool; Falcons with 6 man units (Avengers, Dragons, Reapers), Hawks and Spiders and a single Non DS unit ("Forward observers", which would make Rangers the thematic choice) to survive till you can drop in. Really reduce the potential for JB/SD abuse with such a list (since you can't get Wraithguard in a Falcon)

This works great for me though, Falcons/Primsms/Spinners and air support are my choice for late game arrival, mop up for infantry/beasts/MCs with high toughness/armour and for remaining vehicles to be popped/glanced to death. For me early on in the game theyre a liability and can gum up Serpent/Troop Ops and to top it off with such High strength Low-shot weapons theyre really a true tactical gamble compared to other eldar units that can pump out the dakka (much more important in the early parts of the game when cover and intervening units are abound)
but well see what happens now that I have to TOTALLY REORGANIZE MY ARMY

I also have several chasis and an extra turret set lying around from cloud-striking so the number isn't an issue.
Landing them isnt tough, (unless you fail a dangerous terrain test : /) given the tactics of other fast units in the army hopefully in a worst case scenario you can just deploy safely in your own zone in the dust of your jetbikes and still cover most of the board with your range.

That said this is always the liability with deep-striking units, but thats why I like these guys versus the SM drop pod (only in some ways, drop pod is in fact a godsend, in addition to actually being a dedicated transport) but they can move to capture other objectives if needed and extract units from certain death if necessary (one time saved my fire-dragon ex and his last dragon air cav style so they could exact revenge on a LR two turns later).

but that said its a tough comparison to make, think of this more like being able to take a predator sqaudron in normal SM force org which i think they will do, and hopefully to start to even out this D weapon mess they let me take the D-Strenght Killshot as a basic predator ability and well be on our way to evening things out/killing 40k even more (Sarcasm on Both)
(For those who dont know what this, In the Apoc formation if predator gets all three lascannons to hit its resolved as a D)
and probably more of the like... im looking at you obliterators

[Erik Setzer]

Didn't orks tie for the highest win percentage in Adepticon?

I can't find a site that lists that info that isn't blocked by our firewall here, but if it's anything like other tournaments, you're picking a favorable data point that doesn't really work well. If there's, say, two Ork players, and they do middle of the pack, and there are 10 Marine players with 5 of them winning practically every game, 1 middle of the pack, and four at the very bottom, it could drag the Marine winning percentage down to that of the Orks... which then means the Marines are no better than Orks. Because yeah, that sounds right.

The top winning percentage for any army at LVO (which I did find some very generic data like that for) was around 60%. Bottom was something like 45%. That's not a big spread. It also depends on who gets matched up with who, what the level of the lowest players for any army are and the best players, and how many armies there are (and Orks aren't very highly represented for a reason).

[Charon]

Wow. Must have been an incredibly bad Dark Eldar player. Eh, guess it's not a surprise, since anyone playing a brand of Eldar anyway would just go with Dark Eldar.

Good job using one single data point to try to prove your non-existent point!

2 Datapoints, not one.
So which arguments can you bring to on aside from your guts?

So your conclusion is basically tournament DE players are incredibly bad and casual DE players would be way better thus the army is stronger than Tournament data suggests?
Nice try.

[ShadowcatX]

you're picking a favorable data point that doesn't really work well.

Why yes, yes I am. But I still have more data points than the people complaining about the Eldar codex.

[40kGamer]

Currently DE are more Glass than Hammer... I don't currently see any situation where a pure DE force could hope to handle a half way competent Eldar player. And for two books released this close together that's pretty sad.

[acprince]

thank god for the new elder codex, it will make me feel better about dropping Tyrannofexes with flesh borer hives out of Tyranocytes :)

[Erik Setzer]

Currently DE are more Glass than Hammer... I don't currently see any situation where a pure DE force could hope to handle a half way competent Eldar player. And for two books released this close together that's pretty sad.

I don't think Dark Eldar will win a match against Eldar if the two players are similar skill level, and wouldn't argue that they would. I would definitely argue Orks are in a worse position. And Daemonkin aren't as bad off as people think, though, yeah, they have plenty of cause to not be happy with this (the comparison of a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage to a Wraithknight that's just 20 points more should show how it's clear the design studio itself is broken right now and I'm not sure they're even comparing their own books any more).

[ShadowcatX]

Dark Eldar and Orks are both going to struggle significantly against the Eldar, especially against highly optimized Eldar lists. But is it anyone's arguments they don't also struggle against significantly optimized marine, necron, or tau armies?

[Erik Setzer]

2 Datapoints, not one.
So which arguments can you bring to on aside from your guts?

So your conclusion is basically tournament DE players are incredibly bad and casual DE players would be way better thus the army is stronger than Tournament data suggests?
Nice try.

Well, since you brought up LVO:

http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

So Ork armies did mildly better than Dark Eldar in terms of winning percentage, while still being below 50%. There were more Dark Eldar players. It's likely the Ork players were *really* good with Orks, which is where you'd have to be to feel comfortable bothering with such a tournament with them. And yet... well, they still couldn't scrounge up 50%.

The important thing is to check the line where they draw a comparison with overall winning percentage since Nov. 2014 (so it includes the new DE and Ork codices). Notice how the Dark Eldar point is a good bit higher than the Ork point? Orks, when drawing in all games where data is available, do notably worse than Dark Eldar do. Orks are down there with CSM and nearly at the same point as Dark Angels. Those are the two codices people call the absolute worst in the game and say desperately need updated... and yet Orks are right down there with them, despite having a new codex. A new codex that, I might add, stripped them of inv. saves in combat, shifted Lootas into an already overcrowded Heavy Support slot, increased the price on Burna Boyz to make them even more moot, and generally turned the army into something where people try to rely on gimmicks to succeed. And at LVO, you can see that a number of Ork players had to use an Allied Detachment of Orks in order to be able to take enough HS and HQ slots to be effective. And yeah, those HQ slots are very necessary, as Painboys and Big Meks are the only way to keep the Boyz alive long enough to get somewhere (or protect your big guns).

Yeah, Dark Eldar lost a couple of old tricks. But you have to be insane (or trolling) to claim they're somehow below Orks.

- - - Updated - - -


Dark Eldar and Orks are both going to struggle significantly against the Eldar, especially against highly optimized Eldar lists. But is it anyone's arguments they don't also struggle against significantly optimized marine, necron, or tau armies?

Heck, I'd bet Marines, Necrons, and Tau have some "fun" with these new Eldar... about as much "fun" as an acid enema. But yeah, they'll wreck Orks, and often Dark Eldar. We all knew Tau were busted, though. I think Dark Eldar can handle Necrons, just a bit tricky. Space Marines, well, there was a thought they might fix them this year (so that you didn't have two or three builds that were godly in their power while the rest were "eh"), but I feel like with the Eldar being the way they are, Space Marines are going to get insane. (They *have* to be able to beat Eldar, they're the top selling army line.)

[Charon]

But is it anyone's arguments they don't also struggle against significantly optimized marine, necron, or tau armies?

Against significantly optimzed armies? Sure. Against "just strong" or "average builds"? The odds are still against you but not so bad that I would use the word "pointless" or "hardly winnable" as you still have a mobility advantage in most cases and can just play to the mission.
Sadly even an average Eldar army negates the mobility advantage, they outgun and outsustain you while costing less points.
And that is a huge difference between struggling vs highly optimized armies or struggle against any build of that army. I can't think of reasonable eldar build (that is if you do not intend to 1500 points of guardians) that is not able to just blow an optimized DE army out of the water.
I do play both for a long time now and I am very confident in my DE play (less so in my Eldar play) but I really struggle to see any bright side in this.

The most hilarious thing I heard on the Dark City was something like "Omg imagine the horror when we drop Wraithguard with an Archon and WWP, Banshees in Raiders which cant be shot, Psykers with all the -Ld we can bring,..." "You can be sure if we do this they will nerf our stuff in the next codex because it is too good when combined with eldar"


Yeah, Dark Eldar lost a couple of old tricks. But you have to be insane (or trolling) to claim they're somehow below Orks.

the biggest declines going to Dark Eldar and Blood Angels. Meanwhile, Orks and Chaos Space Marines did significantly better than their track record, with 11.8% and 7.8% improvements respectively.

So how do you jump to this conclusion when you bring the data yourself?
The decline from dark eldar is the point where the new codex hit. So is improvement of orks. Given the fact that most orks went with 3 FOC and green Tide. The ork codex is actually an (power) improvement. It may be less flavorful and some units are absolutely useless, but the overall power if optimized has gone up.
While the Dark Eldar codex not only stripped flavor (wtf only 3 SC survived the purge... not even a faction leader) and did nothing for the power level, quite the opposite.

[Erik Setzer]

Given the fact that most orks went with 3 FOC and green Tide. The ork codex is actually an (power) improvement. It may be less flavorful and some units are absolutely useless, but the overall power if optimized has gone up.

Yay! Orks went from being utter crap to just mediocre! HUZZAH FOR IMPROVEMENT!!!

I've played both. I love my Orks, but Dark Eldar *are* better. And no, a Green Tide doesn't make an Ork army good. It just means you're putting a lot of bodies on the table that can't maneuver well, will likely bog down if there's any amount of terrain, and provide glorious targets for templates, tying up at least 800+ points into one unit. BRILLIANT! It's a freaking genius idea! So genius that I saw a guy use it over the weekend against Space Wolves and lose, especially as they were playing with objectives, and that massive horde of Orks is hard to reposition for taking objectives. Bonus, if you try to charge more than one unit with it, you lose not only the +1 Attack, but also Furious Charge, meaning you negate the only thing really making Orks okay in combat (for one turn). But if you're not charging multiple things, you're wasting a lot of bodies. Oh, but your opponent can charge you with multiple units who *will* get their bonuses for charging. Yep, yep, I just can't see why people don't always take a Green Tide! Sure, it can't maneuver, it's easy to smash with templates, it makes assaulting even more worthless, it's a lot easier to assault, it can't attack multiple targets... but it's a lot of Orks in one spot taking up over half your army's points, so that's game-changingly-powerful! Next to that, how can an army full to the gills with Poison, Lance, and Haywire weapons compete?

Hey, uh, do you want me to keep going with this? Because I totally can. I'm sure I have more mocking left in me. And the claim that the Green Tide is a "competitive" formation is worth mocking.

Or we could just go back to talking Eldar.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Groan, I can't read this many complicated Spanish phrases.

[Charon]

Yay! Orks went from being utter crap to just mediocre! HUZZAH FOR IMPROVEMENT!!!

I've played both. I love my Orks, but Dark Eldar *are* better. And no, a Green Tide doesn't make an Ork army good. It just means you're putting a lot of bodies on the table that can't maneuver well, will likely bog down if there's any amount of terrain, and provide glorious targets for templates, tying up at least 800+ points into one unit. BRILLIANT! It's a freaking genius idea! So genius that I saw a guy use it over the weekend against Space Wolves and lose, especially as they were playing with objectives, and that massive horde of Orks is hard to reposition for taking objectives. Bonus, if you try to charge more than one unit with it, you lose not only the +1 Attack, but also Furious Charge, meaning you negate the only thing really making Orks okay in combat (for one turn). But if you're not charging multiple things, you're wasting a lot of bodies. Oh, but your opponent can charge you with multiple units who *will* get their bonuses for charging. Yep, yep, I just can't see why people don't always take a Green Tide! Sure, it can't maneuver, it's easy to smash with templates, it makes assaulting even more worthless, it's a lot easier to assault, it can't attack multiple targets... but it's a lot of Orks in one spot taking up over half your army's points, so that's game-changingly-powerful! Next to that, how can an army full to the gills with Poison, Lance, and Haywire weapons compete?

Hey, uh, do you want me to keep going with this? Because I totally can. I'm sure I have more mocking left in me. And the claim that the Green Tide is a "competitive" formation is worth mocking.

Or we could just go back to talking Eldar.


Did you ever consider that you are just a lower than average player?
You are no benchmark. Not in the slightest.
And I can't even begin to understand how I never heard of the successful tournament player that you obviously are. Because otherwise I see no validity in your claim that green tide is not competitive when Orc players at big international events prove otherwise.

[Mr Mystery]

Yep.

[Thaldin]

I just want my new codex to play with the only army I have ever owned since 1991ish against my friends who also enjoy playing =\

[Morachi]

Looks like my annual leave at work is going to take a hit. It will be a month of Sunday's before I can put the full 101k of Warhost into allocated formations all over again O_o ahh 1st world problems.

[Mr Mystery]

I just want my new codex to play with the only army I have ever owned since 1991ish against my friends who also enjoy playing =\

'Kin-a dude!

[Arkhan Land]

Groan, I can't read this many complicated Spanish phrases.

I Can!

[Defenestratus]

Looks like my annual leave at work is going to take a hit. It will be a month of Sunday's before I can put the full 101k of Warhost into allocated formations all over again O_o ahh 1st world problems.

Morachi - my arch nemesis. The only person on earth that I can't alpha-nerd with my Eldar collection.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I can guarantee that you can't alpha-nerd eldargal either.

[eosgreen]

need to see all the formation rules/craftworld specific stuff and man im really upset no new plastic banshees/spiders/hawks. those models are really bad

[Morachi]

Morachi - my arch nemesis. The only person on earth that I can't alpha-nerd with my Eldar collection.

Hahaha, don't think i'd ever be able to call a fellow Eldar aficionado a nemesis. Combine arms, return the balance of power back to the Eldar I say ;)

Still got the Dark Kin and Exodite projects to start/finish yet. With all the rapid fire releases, we may actually see an Exodite book released similar to Codex Harlequins - That would be something to see, the full five Eldar archetypes represented on the tabletop! :D

[Defenestratus]

Hahaha, don't think i'd ever be able to call a fellow Eldar aficionado a nemesis. Combine arms, return the balance of power back to the Eldar I say ;)

Still got the Dark Kin and Exodite projects to start/finish yet. With all the rapid fire releases, we may actually see an Exodite book released similar to Codex Harlequins - That would be something to see, the full five Eldar archetypes represented on the tabletop! :D

I meant that with respect :P

Unfortunately my colleague Triumphus, who I had been in an arms race with and was the direct cause of my craftworld's military expansion decided that he no longer cared for apocalypse, and sold all of his warlords and imperator titans. Therefore there is nothing for my phantoms to kill anymore and certainly no reason for me to continue dropping hard earned money on more titans that will continue to sit in boxes, unbuilt, in my closet. :(

[eosgreen]

so can someone explain to me, a player who hasnt played in 40k since seer council was ONLY for ulthwe and beil-tan could take aspect warriors as troops how i would go about fielding a beil tan aspect army? i dont understand the force/detachments at all. i read it that i need to take 1-3 guardian squad to gain access to 1-3 of another squad with the special rules. was this correct? that sounds to me like if i wanted i could take 1 guardian squad and 3 banshees or 2 guardian squads and 3 banshees. i dont get it lol

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I meant that with respect :P

Unfortunately my colleague Triumphus, who I had been in an arms race with and was the direct cause of my craftworld's military expansion decided that he no longer cared for apocalypse, and sold all of his warlords and imperator titans. Therefore there is nothing for my phantoms to kill anymore and certainly no reason for me to continue dropping hard earned money on more titans that will continue to sit in boxes, unbuilt, in my closet. :(

To have a Titan, that's the dream!

[Defenestratus]

To have a Titan, that's the dream!

When you relocate as often as I do, its more of a curse. I need to get rid of mine.

[Lexington]

When you relocate as often as I do, its more of a curse. I need to get rid of mine.
*sigh* Fine, I get the friggin' hint, I'll build some Stompas and get a plane ticket...

[Morachi]

When you relocate as often as I do, its more of a curse. I need to get rid of mine.

Haha, respect taken. Well if the Warhost dispersement needs help, always open to those disbanding Eldar joining the Dras'Volharr ;)

On second thoughts, probably best to hold off until this lot are painted... only just coming up on the 50% mark now, hoping for 75% by end of year and 95% end of 2016.

[Arkhan Land]

so can someone explain to me, a player who hasnt played in 40k since seer council was ONLY for ulthwe and beil-tan could take aspect warriors as troops how i would go about fielding a beil tan aspect army? i dont understand the force/detachments at all. i read it that i need to take 1-3 guardian squad to gain access to 1-3 of another squad with the special rules. was this correct? that sounds to me like if i wanted i could take 1 guardian squad and 3 banshees or 2 guardian squads and 3 banshees. i dont get it lol

no sadly you need to take a minimum of three Guardian units to get the Aspects with special rules

[Charon]

no sadly you need to take a minimum of three Guardian units to get the Aspects with special rules

Nope, it is a Formation.

Yo only nee one of the Guardian warhosts if you want to use the special FOC in the book. You still can use CAD or any Formation in the book without the Guardians (like in Necron or Daemonkin)

[The Girl]

Every reported post I've gotten in the last 2 days has come from this thread. The mods have deleted posts, moved posts… and now I'm going to have to do this:

If you derail the thread, if you go off topic, if you insult someone, if you look like you're insulting someone then you get a week long ban.

You've been warned.

[Kirsten]

just close the thread, it has been an unreadable mess for the past nine or ten days.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

just close the thread, it has been an unreadable mess for the past nine or ten days.

This

[40kGamer]

just close the thread, it has been an unreadable mess for the past nine or ten days.

I was hoping for more page pics to test the limits of my poor language skills! If I'd known future GW leaks were going to be in Spanish I wouldn't have let mine get so darn rusty!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I was hoping for more page pics to test the limits of my poor language skills! If I'd known future GW leaks were going to be in Spanish I wouldn't have let mine get so darn rusty!

Mine is rusty but I translated most of it. The Avatar now gives, fearless, Rage, and adamantium will I believe. Army wide battle focus & fleet, I think Ancestral Damnation? Is the new fear and hate of she who thirsts...

Same war gear as before for the aspects & exarchs with points reductions mostly.

I think I read, Reapers pay 8pts for starswarm but I can't tell if they come with Flakk standard missiles or not. What specifically were you wanting?

[40kGamer]

Mine is rusty but I translated most of it. The Avatar now gives, fearless, Rage, and adamantium will I believe. Army wide battle focus & fleet, I think Ancestral Damnation? Is the new fear and hate of she who thirsts...

Same war gear as before for the aspects & exarchs with points reductions mostly.

I think I read, Reapers pay 8pts for starswarm but I can't tell if they come with Flakk standard missiles or not. What specifically were you wanting?

Was looking for the flak missiles myself. Guessing that may be on the weapons pages that we haven't seen just yet.

I didn't see anything under the Hawks that could be skyleap so I'm guessing that goes away.

Does Veloz translate as "fleet'?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Was looking for the flak missiles myself. Guessing that may be on the weapons pages that we haven't seen just yet.

I didn't see anything under the Hawks that could be skyleap so I'm guessing that goes away.

Does Veloz translate as "fleet'?

Yes Veloz = fleet.

It's hard to read some of the pages because they are blurry or obscured.

I think your right, sky leap was just replaced with intercepter as far as I can tell. herald of victory is deep strike with blind as long as you have the Exarch the other is they can attack flyers and flying MC on a 4+ S4 haywire.

[40kGamer]

Yes Veloz = fleet.

It's hard to read some of the pages because they are blurry or obscured.

I think your right, sky leap was just replaced with intercepter as far as I can tell. herald of victory is deep strike with blind as long as you have the Exarch the other is they can attack flyers and flying MC on a 4+ S4 haywire.

Thanks! Yeah some of the text is too blurry to make out. I had wanted Swooping hawks to threaten fliers last codex so I'm pretty excited they can do this. (And do it quite well with a Haywire attack per model) Going to miss skyleap a bit. It was great for getting out of a tight spot. :)

[Lord Mayhem]

Just had a silly idea last night; with the WK now getting stomp, I now feel the urge to paint and pose one like Fred Astaire; Top hat, Tux(with tails), cane etc in a "putting on the ritz" kinda pose, as it tapdances through units (Hey it's no sillier than my "Karate kid Crane pose" WK! (with optional Hammer of Wraith))

[40kGamer]

Just had a silly idea last night; with the WK now getting stomp, I now feel the urge to paint and pose one like Fred Astaire; Top hat, Tux(with tails), cane etc in a "putting on the ritz" kinda pose, as it tapdances through units (Hey it's no sillier than my "Karate kid Crane pose" WK! (with optional Hammer of Wraith))

Honestly, that would be pretty hilarious. I presume the cane would be the S D CCW? :)

[ShadowcatX]

Honestly, that would be pretty hilarious. I presume the cane would be the S D CCW? :)

Then what is the hat? Lol.

[Houghten]

Autarchs are veterans of many schools of warfare, having walked the warrior path many times, but never succumbing to the Path of the Exarch. This is reflected on the model, which wears the wings of a Swooping Hawk and the mandiblasters of a Striking Scorpion while carrying the fusion pistol of a Fire Dragon and the sword of a Dire Avenger.
Wait, what? Only Exarchs carry direswords; if the Autarch's never been an Exarch, why'd they have one? Did they just spell "Howling Banshee" wrong?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Doesn't necessarily have to be a Diresword.

[Houghten]

The same argument applies to a power sword wrt Dire Avengers.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

All I know is, that man has far too many different aspects.

[40kGamer]

Then what is the hat? Lol.

That would be his 5++ shield methinks. :D

[Dragannia]

So I've seen the leaked English codex.


Shining Spears unfortunately don't have Hit and Run but on the bright side they're always AP 3 now, which is kinda nice? Banshee masks don't have the minus to initiative anymore but I don't think we'll complain about that. The loss of Overwatch is pretty big. Hawks lost Skyleap but gained the Intercept rule - grenades are the same essentially - HOWEVER Skyleap is given to Hawk Wings instead! So I guess if your Autarch has it he can Skyleap off the board, and yes, Wings move 18. Mandiblasters deal an autowound on a 4+ (wow!).

Holofields as confirmed, now a flat 5+ invuln (unless immobilised, does NOT have to move in the turn before to gain the save). Scorpions have the Shrouded rule until they fight or shoot, if they infiltrate, but with my reading I think they lose Shrouded permanently after they fight/shoot. In any case +3 to cover saves in the first few turns is pretty good. Reapers can still take Starshot missiles at +8 points.

Fire Prisms have the option to link if in same squadron, just like in 4th Edition. They get +1S AND -1AP for every model who could fire normally (no snap fires). Unfortunately it doesn't twin-link the shot. The scan I've seen is fuzzy but I think the Night Spinners have a similar rule, but it's additive - one model fires one shot for each model shooting, and adds +1 strength per Night Spinner. Not too sure on this.<

Eldar Missile launchers are still expensive but they all come with "starhawk" missiles now - Str 7 Ap 4 Skyfire shots.

Serpents shields as rumoured, but the shooting attack has Strikedown too (not sure if mentioned before). Vectored Engines as normal. At a glance everything else seems unchanged.

In terms of Remnants, Mantle is gone. There's a Str 4 AP 3 pistol with Rending now. Everything else seems unchanged (though I don't have the 6th Edition codex for reference at the moment). Runes of Battle appear unchanged. There's a WC2 power in Runes of Fate that gives all within 12" Fearless and Adamantium Will, and Eldritch Storm is WC3 or 4 now as previously rumoured, and is AP3.

[Drazhar1221]

Can't wait to get my codex, bought the limited ed' one 'cus I'm a numpty xD Will finally be able to start them propperly. I was going to do Iyaenden, but I hate all the stipid D-weapons. So I'm gonna make my own craftworld, name suggestions? I was thinking Ball-Hyyn, Ball being my surname :3

[Defenestratus]

So I've seen the leaked English codex.


Shining Spears unfortunately don't have Hit and Run but on the bright side they're always AP 3 now, which is kinda nice? Banshee masks don't have the minus to initiative anymore but I don't think we'll complain about that. The loss of Overwatch is pretty big. Hawks lost Skyleap but gained the Intercept rule - grenades are the same essentially - HOWEVER Skyleap is given to Hawk Wings instead! So I guess if your Autarch has it he can Skyleap off the board, and yes, Wings move 18. Mandiblasters deal an autowound on a 4+ (wow!).

Holofields as confirmed, now a flat 5+ invuln (unless immobilised, does NOT have to move in the turn before to gain the save). Scorpions have the Shrouded rule until they fight or shoot, if they infiltrate, but with my reading I think they lose Shrouded permanently after they fight/shoot. In any case +3 to cover saves in the first few turns is pretty good. Reapers can still take Starshot missiles at +8 points.

Fire Prisms have the option to link if in same squadron, just like in 4th Edition. They get +1S AND -1AP for every model who could fire normally (no snap fires). Unfortunately it doesn't twin-link the shot. The scan I've seen is fuzzy but I think the Night Spinners have a similar rule, but it's additive - one model fires one shot for each model shooting, and adds +1 strength per Night Spinner. Not too sure on this.<

Eldar Missile launchers are still expensive but they all come with "starhawk" missiles now - Str 7 Ap 4 Skyfire shots.

Serpents shields as rumoured, but the shooting attack has Strikedown too (not sure if mentioned before). Vectored Engines as normal. At a glance everything else seems unchanged.

In terms of Remnants, Mantle is gone. There's a Str 4 AP 3 pistol with Rending now. Everything else seems unchanged (though I don't have the 6th Edition codex for reference at the moment). Runes of Battle appear unchanged. There's a WC2 power in Runes of Fate that gives all within 12" Fearless and Adamantium Will, and Eldritch Storm is WC3 or 4 now as previously rumoured, and is AP3.

Thanks for the info. The spears information is disappointing... they rely on HnR to keep their number of attacks up since they don't come with 2CCW IIRC.

The missile launcher news is nice but I feel that it still wont be used due to its crazy price.