Craftworld Eldar in the rumormill

[DrLove42]

Let's drop the hyperbole.

It's not everyone and is a direct middle finger to the so called competitive crowd who banned ranged strength D. We don't know points cost yet not do we know the big picture of how the codex works together.

Oh aye, i know. I try and hold my opinions until i see the whole package but occasionally some over reaction slips out.

GW dont need to try and say FU to competitive play. Ive never liked the idea that some of the internet has that competitive play and balenced play are two different things. Good in a competiton is being a level playing field, which os what makes normal gameplay fun as well

[Path Walker]

Do we have to go through this song and dance every time? Its getting ridiculous.

[LostInTheDark]

I like the intent of the new core + other bits detachment, though perhaps not the execution. Will need to see what the points cost/min unit sizes are to see what can be put on the table at a particular points cost.

It always annoyed me that you couldn't take a couple of War Walkers and Engines of Vaul if you used up your 3 heavy slots on vehicles. Never seemed to represent a warhost very well.

It's a bit like the old card based army selection from epic where you had a core force and that opened x number of support units and an HQ/Special card.

I miss epic :(

Finally some Seers on bikes. Nice models, but a bit pricey in Aussie $s for the 1 model clam pack.

[Path Walker]

I think the execution is fine too, for all the whining about 12 C'Tan lists, the reality is that the points make that unfeasible.

Don't like the restrictions of the new Formation? Use the CAD or just pick and choose the Formations you like, or go Unbound, its really simple

[Aldavaer]

I will need to sit down with the codex and work out the formations implications (assuming no changes to points, rules etc apart from what is known).

I normally run a war walker squadron (SC/SL) although with the loss of laser lock I will need to revisit the weapon fit, the Vauls Wrath support battery is a unit of 1-3 currently and I tend to run one with a shadow weaver as it is cheap in points, tough and if well placed can cause an opponent mobility issues, if all distort weapons are strength D a battery of 3 with D cannons becomes frightening unless the points go up significantly.

[Erik Setzer]

The tax for the formation is insane... 1 farseer, 3 squads of guardians, a vyper squad, a war walker squad and a support battery (holy hell what are you going to spend the rest of your points on? A squad of rangers?)

Well, as I've been saying, they're trying to make every game Apoc, and even as WFB collapsed because of the cost of building large armies, they keep trying to push the number of models you have to buy for 40K up, thinking that it being their flagship game can save it from WFB's fate (because they're all coked-up or on some kind of happy pills or something).

Units like Howling Banshees can't be fixed because they're relics of a time when the game's scope was much smaller. These days every battle is Epic 40K in 28mm.

The more I see, the more I think 40K's moving away from me as someone who just wants to spend 2-3 hours playing a fun game with people.

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Really hopimg this "Destroyer rule for everybody" rule is wrong. Mistranslations, over exageration whatever. Just please let it not be true.

Replacing the Wave Serpent with something rver more broken is not the solution!

Sure it is. Everyone bought Wave Serpents, now they'll want to buy the new hotness.

It's a solution for what they care about. And if you think there's anything wrong with that, just remember there's people on this forum ready to tell you to "Stop Your Whinging!" as the topic is titled...

[Mr Mystery]

Dude....

Warhammer's issue wasn't the scaling up. Those of us who have been playing for donkey's years welcomed that, because it meant the bigger games were more fun, with more dice being chucked about. The issue for Warhammer was that for a long, long time, it just didn't offer as much fun at smaller (less than 1,500 to my tastes) games.

40k simply doesn't have that issue because of its base mechanics - it remains a skirmish levelled game at heart, with freedom of movement and objective seizing remaining key to winning. It still plays satisfyingly at low points levels, say around 500. And as Necron player, who previously had a minimum point spend damned near 500, I'd say it plays better than it did with our first codex.

It's a natural progression for a game to cater to ever larger games. The longer a game is around, the bigger people's collections get, and we all want the option of really big 'bung it all on the table' dust ups. Yes, we now have Super Heavies and Formations and Unbound and Lions and Tigers and Bears and Gargantuan Creatures and Weasels and Ferrets and Badgers and Squirrels open to us. But that's largely because following the success of the first incarnation of Apocalypse (which damned near broke Forgeworld), we players had those big spangly units now, and it seemed a shame they could only really be played in Apocalypse.

Relax and chill - 40k has more options open to us than ever before. Stop stressing about what the next person is doing with their hobby, and just enjoy your own.

[Path Walker]

I really don't get why its so hard to shoot your opponent a message saying "fancy 1500pt 40k, no super heavies?" if that's what you want?

A community of well adjusted people should be self regulating because any abusive players (more so than ever in the age of social media and connectedness) will be identified and shunned until they change their ways.

Locally, we had a bit of a schism of late, there was a League/Tournament ran for a few years that was slowly dominated and eventually organised, by a minority of competitive players who cared not a jot about fluff, it was netlists, bunkering eldar with wave serpent spam, the lot. The other players who just wanted a game voiced concerns or asked for options to tone down the abuses as the rules were being tuned to favour competitive players.

This wasn't happening so instead, we organised our own group, 15 -20 of us set up an informal campaign and over a month we had hundreds of battles over the planet of Scythia, people wrote custom missions, hundreds of pages of fluff, battle reports, heroes were born and villians beheaded.

The hobby is what you make it. Its not about the competitive tournament crowd, its about what your friends want to do to have fun.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Jetbikes are great, they look exactly how I thought they would. I'll be glad to never have to see those 2nd edition ones on the GW website ever again. The winged autarch is also nice and I think that new cover is nicer than the previous one.

[ShadowcatX]

Let's not turn this into a "competitive playes are ruining the hobby" thread, we have plenty of those.

[Subs]

Hear hear Mr Mystery.

So it sounds like what a lot of you want is a 40K lite with none of the grim dark. "But but, you put your Eldar in a bunker", because yer, Eldar never build infrastructure, although it's fine for every other race to do it. Learn to actually play at a tactical level please. If you know what you're doing there's nothing in 40K that's hard to deal with unless the dice have it in for you that day.

[Path Walker]

Let's not turn this into a "competitive playes are ruining the hobby" thread, we have plenty of those.

We'd have fewer if the competitve players stopped ruining the hobby :P

[Mr Mystery]

Just need to know when you're the problem compared to other people.

For instance....

Me turning up at a no-holds barred tournament type thing. Yep. I'm gonna be the problem there, because that's just not my style. I'm the odd one out in that setting.

Tournament player insisting that every single game be played to a given tournament's house rules (had that before!) even when round your house, or randomly in store, and with no prior discussion about such things? They're the odd one out, and thus the problem.

I appreciate 'problem' is too strong a word, but lunch break nearly over so typing fast!

[eldargal]

We'd have fewer if the competitve players stopped ruining the hobby :P

I loled.

[daboarder]

Man you go out for dinner and drinks and you come back and a thread that was reasonable discussion about the impact of new rules is suddenly full of people attacking other posters because they play the game differently.....

After everything Deadlift pointed out less than 24hrs ago this is just pathetic and sad.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

So, does anyone know if this is just a 1 week release like GK and Necrons, or will there be another week? Would be cool to see some plastic aspects is all.

[daboarder]

So, does anyone know if this is just a 1 week release like GK and Necrons, or will there be another week? Would be cool to see some plastic aspects is all.

Good question, so far everything we've seen is dropping sunday as far as I am aware.

THerefore this is very possibly a 1 week release.

Might explain the finecast Autarch.

That being said, there is some scuttle but of plastic aspects and a new avatar, but that happens every Eldar release cycle.

[Aldavaer]

So, does anyone know if this is just a 1 week release like GK and Necrons, or will there be another week? Would be cool to see some plastic aspects is all.

I suspect this will be a one week release. If I remember correctly in recent times with the multi-week releases the Codex was not in the first week.

BUT I would love to be proved wrong.

[Path Walker]

reasonable discussion about the impact of new rules

Except it wasn't that at all

[ShadowcatX]

Except it wasn't that at all

It totally was. *afixes rose colored glasses* Still is. Even this post. :)

[daboarder]

Except it wasn't that at all


Really hopimg this "Destroyer rule for everybody" rule is wrong. Mistranslations, over exageration whatever. Just please let it not be true.

Replacing the Wave Serpent with something rver more broken is not the solution!

Let's drop the hyperbole.

It's not everyone and is a direct middle finger to the so called competitive crowd who banned ranged strength D. We don't know points cost yet not do we know the big picture of how the codex works together.

Oh aye, i know. I try and hold my opinions until i see the whole package but occasionally some over reaction slips out.

GW dont need to try and say FU to competitive play. Ive never liked the idea that some of the internet has that competitive play and balenced play are two different things. Good in a competiton is being a level playing field, which os what makes normal gameplay fun as well

yes, such an utterly impolite and violent exchange there....

Truely it deserved the following posts in responce (after the involved parties were satisified.)

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Good question, so far everything we've seen is dropping sunday as far as I am aware.

THerefore this is very possibly a 1 week release.

Might explain the finecast Autarch.

That being said, there is some scuttle but of plastic aspects and a new avatar, but that happens every Eldar release cycle.

I'm still weirded out by the finecast stuff, its been a very long time since any non-lotr/hobbit release had any finecast in it. Perhaps it was something left over from the previous eldar release that they couldn't fit in at the time.

[Defenestratus]

This morning I'm going through my collection to see what kind of formations I can put together. I can do the core guardian host one no problem, its just with mostly models that were painted back in 2nd and 3rd edition. I might have to blow some dust off of them.

[ShadowcatX]

This morning I'm going through my collection to see what kind of formations I can put together. I can do the core guardian host one no problem, its just with mostly models that were painted back in 2nd and 3rd edition. I might have to blow some dust off of them.

I can do the 3 aspect warriors and I can do the 1 wraith knight. And that's pretty much it. And I couldn't be happier.

[Defenestratus]

I can do the 3 aspect warriors and I can do the 1 wraith knight. And that's pretty much it. And I couldn't be happier.

Only one I can't really do is the crimson hunter one - which is no shame since I always thought that they were terrible planes. Wonder if the formation will give them anything to make them worth taking.

[40kGamer]

Anyone else find it interesting that for a model company they sure are releasing a lot of rules. :p

I'm very happy to have the first ranged D weapon on a non-FW model. They banned Revenants at local events so having access to these from the main Eldar book will be lovely. Always nice to have something new for people to complain about.

I'll need to paint a few odd units but I have enough Eldar to fill out the formations so that should be entertaining.

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Only one I can't really do is the crimson hunter one - which is no shame since I always thought that they were terrible planes. Wonder if the formation will give them anything to make them worth taking.

I've never been able to justify them over the Nightwing's.

[Defenestratus]

Anyone else find it interesting that for a model company they sure are releasing a lot of rules. :p

I'm very happy to have the first ranged D weapon on a non-FW model. They banned Revenants at local events so having access to these from the main Eldar book will be lovely. Always nice to have something new for people to complain about.

I'll need to paint a few odd units but I have enough Eldar to fill out the formations so that should be entertaining.

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I've never been able to justify them over the Nightwing's.

Me neither - nightwings were cheaper and lasted longer than the CH's.

[ShadowcatX]

I've never been able to justify them over the Nightwing's.

Which is a perfect example of why people say forgeworld is OP. (Not that the crimson hunter is good at all.)

[Erik Setzer]

40k simply doesn't have that issue because of its base mechanics - it remains a skirmish levelled game at heart, with freedom of movement and objective seizing remaining key to winning. It still plays satisfyingly at low points levels, say around 500. And as Necron player, who previously had a minimum point spend damned near 500, I'd say it plays better than it did with our first codex.

I would laugh at that, but unfortunately my mood is so dour* that I can't bring myself to laugh at something genuinely funny (if simply because it's so wrong that it feels like it *had* to be a joke, though it likely wasn't).

We did an Escalation league at the local GW, both WFB and 40K. Guess what? Both failed spectacularly. No one wants to play 40K at low points levels. A few editions back, they had special rules for lower point games, and for Kill Teams... you can still get Kill Team rules, but they're a separate digital download you have to pay extra for. No Combat Team rules. And at 500 points, you can make a fully legal army with a Knight and five Legion of the Damned (Fearless Space Marines with 3+ inv. save, woot!). Or just throw out a unit of TWC with character(s). That's just two examples. It could get a lot worse. It became obvious that the rules are not intended for smaller games, even without throwing in the big new releases.

WFB had a similar issue. It once had skirmish and warbands rules, but they removed those to try to prompt people to play larger and larger matches. And that cost kept new players from getting in. I see the same often with 40K. People already in it will buy some new stuff, but that compounds the problem, as they want to play with it all, and so new people looking in think that's how big the armies have to be. The GW store has a policy of capping 40K games at 1500, but he doesn't bother enforcing it often because people don't want to play "small" games like that. "Small!" At 1500! But hey, at 1500, you can't really do much with these new "detachments" made up of formations, so yeah, I guess it is too small. (I'm well aware you don't have to use them. But when I came up with an idea for an interesting and potentially effective Khorne Daemonkin army using the CAD, people seemed to think I was crazy for not getting the bonuses of the detachment and formation. That's the mindset these days.)

So yeah. 40K's growing just like WFB did, it's no better at small points (and just getting worse), and it'll follow in the same pattern. But hey, we all knew that couldn't happen to WFB, right? That's what we were told, WFB was in fine shape and it was okay going bigger and bigger (and more and more expensive).

Eh, maybe 8th edition next year will give us back Kill Team and Combat Patrol in the rulebook.




*Not so much because of the games. But they aren't helping.

[Defenestratus]

I don't know Erik

Every 40k escalation league I've played in has been a resounding success and in fact, was more popular at the lower points levels than when it got to 1750-2000 pts.

[ShadowcatX]

Yes, 40k doesn't do the whole small point game all that well, but look at the market for games that have less than 20 figures (and I mean infantry figures) per side. That's a packed market. The whole 50 - 100 models per side market isn't nearly as packed. Its give and take, it can't just dominate everything in the sci-fi wargame any more so they're securing their niche but that niche has a higher cost to break into. It isn't ideal but c'est la vie.

[Erik Setzer]

Anyone else find it interesting that for a model company they sure are releasing a lot of rules. :p

Makes sense to me. They need the game to sell the models. They admit as much on their investor website. It doesn't take much investment to make a book like the Daemonkin book, which can get them more money on its own, but might also prompt more people to buy Chaos stuff in 40K.

Similarly, by tweaking rules here and there, they can subtly push people to buy new stuff for an army they already have. Not just the obvious stuff with the formations, but also by nerfing one unit and making another better. Sure, it seems like it's balance tweaking, but it also does a nice job of selling stuff that might not have been moving well, as you can see with some of the comments on this topic.

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Yes, 40k doesn't do the whole small point game all that well, but look at the market for games that have less than 20 figures (and I mean infantry figures) per side. That's a packed market. The whole 50 - 100 models per side market isn't nearly as packed. Its give and take, it can't just dominate everything in the sci-fi wargame any more so they're securing their niche but that niche has a higher cost to break into. It isn't ideal but c'est la vie.

40K used to work at a smaller scale. They can actually compete with the other games pretty easily. Lower the cost of the core rulebook, and put out another rulebook (maybe two) and army books geared at smaller scale with more detailed rules. They get their foot into that part of the market, keep people who already have models hooked, draw in more people, sell their models at the same time, and maybe those people coming to GW for the smaller level game(s) will look at expanding into the bigger one.

Granted, that doesn't cover the 6mm massive battles any more, or the space battles, but eh, they decided those weren't profitable enough and killed them. (R.I.P., Battlefleet Gothic...)

[Lord Mayhem]

I can do the 3 aspect warriors and I can do the 1 wraith knight. And that's pretty much it. And I couldn't be happier.

Happy to say I can field almost everything; only 2 fighters (one of mine, one my wifes) so Crimson death is beyond me. Oh well. To quote R.L. Stevenson "Variety is the spice of battle"

The new bike options both interest and worry me; I like flexibility, and options, but it worries me a little because it could change the flavor of jetbikes a lot; before they had to get in close so worked much like fast cavalry (think Mongol hordes); dash in strike dash out. Now I can visualize them sitting in the backfield, maneuvering for shots, but not really dancing around the enemy as before. It's a valid play style, but it just seems something would be lost; a sense of dash and speed that has always characterized them before. Even Shuriken cannon required closing with the foe. Eh, just an aesthetics thing. maybe I'm wrong and people will play them as before. Maybe they won't and I'll go back to griping about having to Turbo boost uphill, both ways, in the 100 degree knee deep snow....

I am curious about how people see using and equipping them.

On the Wraithknight issue, If it's pointed similar to an Imp. Knight it should be fine; Toughness 8 is roughly comparable to AV 12 in terms of woundability, the knight has a directional shield vs FNP (lets face it, most weapons that will be shooting at a Wraithknight will ignore 3+ armor anyway), and twice the wounds/Hullpoints, so toughness should be fairly comparable. The WK has 2 D shots vs 2 S8 pieplates (going with baseline weapons), so trade direct damage for area affect (1 on 1 the IK will hit more (scatter a pie plate vs a BIG base? yah, not gonna miss much) while the WK will dmg more) Overall, should be functionally similar in ability, I think.
At least now with Gargantuan there's a reason to fill the 2ndry weapon options on the WK. The suncannon version could be (even more) horrific vs TEQ/MEQ with 2 Starcannon (3 small blast + 4 shots. Ow.)

[ShadowcatX]

Yes, it helps them sell models, it also shakes up the meta, and generates a massive amount of excitement. In other words, it is good for them and good for us.

[Learn2Eel]

I noticed it on Warseer but it came from elsewhere. Try not to scream.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=211406&d=1429088156

[Haighus]

I wonder what head it is they are talking about in the pic? o.O

[40kGamer]

OMG! Mass access to ranged D weapons and ultra mobile? Does it even matter what they do with the Wave Serpent at this point?

[Defenestratus]

I noticed it on Warseer but it came from elsewhere. Try not to scream.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=211406&d=1429088156

<evil maniacal laughter>

[DarkLink]

And people thought Necron Wraiths went from good to OP...

[Defenestratus]

OMG! Mass access to ranged D weapons and ultra mobile? Does it even matter what they do with the Wave Serpent at this point?

Yes, because I want to field things other than WG all the time in order to play Eldar.

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And people thought Necron Wraiths went from good to OP...

The coup de grace would be if WG got cheaper. I don't see that happening.

[Learn2Eel]

And people thought Necron Wraiths went from good to OP...

As a person that runs an exclusively Wraith-themed Eldar army as my primary 40K army and has done since 6th Edition, I really wish this wasn't happening. I give practice games to beginners and inexperienced players or even those just getting back into the hobby quite regularly. My Wraith army stretches the limits against those players already by nature of it being so tough, but generally our games end up being pretty balanced. However, with Destroyer weapons wielded by the core of my army (they may not be Troops anymore though) this kind of becomes impossible. This is probably my most disliked change to a unit in years.

[Thaldin]

So we have come full circle to the d cannons of old. I remember when d-cannons were a 'reflex' save because you either got out of the way or you were sucked into the warp because that is what they do. The look on my friends face when his freshly teleported terminators got hit by my d-cannons back in the rogue trader days always warmed my evil heart.

Looking forward to all the new ways of trying things. I have always liked guardians with support weapons and warlocks to hold points because of firepower and body count.
I loved sending up falcons with fire dragons to wreak havoc on vehicle lines.

I could always imagine the streaks of missiles from the dark reapers into the unit of marines...

The two years thing sucks, but I am looking forward to the new rules

[40kGamer]

And a collective groan was heard from massed Imperial Knight players the world over. I did not expect massed ranged D weapons although it's similar to what Wraith weapons used to be.

[Learn2Eel]

And a collective groan was heard from massed Imperial Knight players the world over. I did not expect massed ranged D weapons although it's similar to what Wraith weapons used to be.

That's exactly right, in 4th Edition Wraithcannons had their own chart which is actually not that dissimilar to the current Destroyer weapon chart, save that it was massively toned-down in comparison.

[Defenestratus]

As a person that runs an exclusively Wraith-themed Eldar army as my primary 40K army and has done since 6th Edition, I really wish this wasn't happening. I give practice games to beginners and inexperienced players or even those just getting back into the hobby quite regularly. My Wraith army stretches the limits against those players already by nature of it being so tough, but generally our games end up being pretty balanced. However, with Destroyer weapons wielded by the core of my army (they may not be Troops anymore though) this kind of becomes impossible. This is probably my most disliked change to a unit in years.

Look on the bright side... at least it seems that the hemlock doesn't have Str D which probably means that the D-scythe isn't much different.

[40kGamer]

Yes, because I want to field things other than WG all the time in order to play Eldar.

Solid point. I just hope they don't screw over Swooping Hawks. I haven't played a game without at least one unit since 4th. I just love that aspect!

I really wish I could justify blowing the dust of my Scorpions and Banshees too.

[eldargal]

I like where this is going.

Now if they could just make Banshees good again...

[Haighus]

As long as they are expensive and remain short ranged it should be fine.

[DrLove42]

Someone at GW really likes the word Wraith clearly.

Wraith in the Necron codex....better
Wraith(guard) in the Eldar codex....better

[Aldavaer]

There is a rumour doing the rounds on Warseer that Dire avengers are moving to elite in the new codex.

[Deadlift]

I prefer kill team to bigger games personally. Lots of fun and I think more skill involved.

[eldargal]

Someone at GW really likes the word Wraith clearly.

Wraith in the Necron codex....better
Wraith(guard) in the Eldar codex....better

GW are wraithists.

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There is a rumour doing the rounds on Warseer that Dire avengers are moving to elite in the new codex.

That rumour was going around prior to the last book too.


Ooh, the fact this is a proper codex not a craftworld supplement book means we might still see specific Craftworld supplements.

[ShadowcatX]

40K used to work at a smaller scale. They can actually compete with the other games pretty easily. Lower the cost of the core rulebook, and put out another rulebook (maybe two) and army books geared at smaller scale with more detailed rules. They get their foot into that part of the market, keep people who already have models hooked, draw in more people, sell their models at the same time, and maybe those people coming to GW for the smaller level game(s) will look at expanding into the bigger one.

Yes, it used to do those. Back when it was the only one of its kind. Now it would be competing against other solid games at that level.

[Learn2Eel]

Look on the bright side... at least it seems that the hemlock doesn't have Str D which probably means that the D-scythe isn't much different.

I guess that's true, if D-Scythes and Heavy D-Scythes aren't Destroyer weapons I'll be able to run my Wraiths without feeling like an *** all the time.

[Haighus]

Yes, it used to do those. Back when it was the only one of its kind. Now it would be competing against other solid games at that level.
They would be competing though, which presumably means more money. It isn't much effort to release more small-scale rules, although I suppose they have done that with Kill Team, but they have been relatively ignored, presumably due to not being freely available.

[Defenestratus]

I guess that's true, if D-Scythes and Heavy D-Scythes aren't Destroyer weapons I'll be able to run my Wraiths without feeling like an *** all the time.

If you think about the effective changes to MOST units, the change to Str D isn't that different - except to armor where its much more effective.

Against most infantry/MC units, its already the kiss of death...

[ShadowcatX]

They would be competing though, which presumably means more money. It isn't much effort to release more small-scale rules, although I suppose they have done that with Kill Team, but they have been relatively ignored, presumably due to not being freely available.

As you say, they've tried and failed. I can't help but think if there was money to be made there, GW would pursue it. (Keep in mind, you have to gauge the profit they make in that arena vs. the profit a similar amount of work would make them in the arena where they are already dominant.)

[Haighus]

As you say, they've tried and failed. I can't help but think if there was money to be made there, GW would pursue it. (Keep in mind, you have to gauge the profit they make in that arena vs. the profit a similar amount of work would make them in the arena where they are already dominant.)
Hmm, yeah, there are opportunity costs to consider. Good point.

[Erik Setzer]

I like where this is going.

Now if they could just make Banshees good again...

Maybe next year in 8th edition, when they make it so that you don't have to be a cavalry unit with invulnerable saves or Terminators in order to be an effective combat unit.

But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. I'd recommend you just give in and go hardcore on the firepower like they want you to, but I get that Banshees hold a special place in your heart given that they're the only female Aspect Warriors (or at least noticeably female).

[Mr Mystery]

Wraithcannon SD......still only a 12" range....

I'll just outside your range, then risk a charge and the resultant overwatch (Mr Brain says he's not sure, but Wraithguard need a Seer with them to overwatch anyways?)

[ShadowcatX]

Make Banshees able to do their job and I bet we'll find a way to get them there.

[Learn2Eel]

Wraithcannon SD......still only a 12" range....

I'll just outside your range, then risk a charge and the resultant overwatch (Mr Brain says he's not sure, but Wraithguard need a Seer with them to overwatch anyways?)

A 12" range doesn't matter when they can take Wave Serpents.
Wraithguard can freely Overwatch, you are probably thinking of Thousand Sons.
You had better hope those Wraithguard you charge aren't equipped with D-Scythes.

[Mr Mystery]

Will just shoot them in that case.

Point I'm making, is that whilst very, very tasty, they still have fairly severe drawbacks, especially given their expense points wise (even going on current points, and assuming they don't go up).

[Defenestratus]

Will just shoot them in that case.

Point I'm making, is that whilst very, very tasty, they still have fairly severe drawbacks, especially given their expense points wise (even going on current points, and assuming they don't go up).

I'm going to guess that, if their statline stays the same, they go up close to 50ppm. This will effectively open up fire dragons as a viable "low cost" alternative to WG for anti-tank activities. Sure they're not as good but they're still deadly to most armored units and will be half the cost.

[Mr Mystery]

I don't know Erik

Every 40k escalation league I've played in has been a resounding success and in fact, was more popular at the lower points levels than when it got to 1750-2000 pts.

Sadly, Erik only considers his own group, and doesn't appear to listen to others saying 'dude, you just have a bad group'. Look at the whinging thread.

Nothing personal meant Erik, just an observation. Whether or not your local crowd dig escalation has nothing to do with the games capability of providing such.

[ShadowcatX]

We're back to being a hard hitting, highly elite army it would seem.

[Erik Setzer]

Sadly, Erik only considers his own group, and doesn't appear to listen to others saying 'dude, you just have a bad group'. Look at the whinging thread.

Nothing personal meant Erik, just an observation. Whether or not your local crowd dig escalation has nothing to do with the games capability of providing such.

The fact that GW used to make rules for smaller games before they made them even less viable shows that the company itself knows small size games aren't really doable with the basic rules. They even sell a set of rules for small scale games... but as it's digital and separate from the rules people already pay $85 for, it's often ignored.

Since GW is always right and we must trust them, that means that 40K is definitively NOT designed to be useful in small-scale games.

And it's not. It just isn't. You can use anecdotal evidence yourself, but the game can be broken so easily at small scales. You have to create a number of house rules and restrictions... which means you aren't playing just the game's core rules. And a lot of people don't do house rules.

Nor is the Decurion, Blood Host, or whatever the Eldar equivalent is called aimed at smaller games. They're aimed at 3000 points and up. And given that GW's stopped producing basic detachments and is doing more of this style, pushing people to build large forces with access to multiple super-heavies, they are indeed pushing larger and larger games.

So my core point remains the same. WFB ran into trouble because its cost to play standard games got too high, and 40K is running the size - and cost - up further and further, following suit.

But hey, 8th edition next year might fix some of that, for the cost of just $100 for having some extra rules, totally a bargain.

[DrBored]

We're back to being a hard hitting, highly elite army it would seem.

I love the WD article about how they throw the Wraithknight up against a bunch of other different big baddies, and how it totally wastes them, and this is supposed to be a good thing. The only thing it struggled against a little was the Imperial Knight.

It's like, c'mon GW, that's not a sign of a good thing, that's a sign of an OVERPOWERED thing.

Now, getting everyone all up in a rut about ranged D weapons across, potentially like five different units in the Codex? Uuuuugh.

Though, I'm trying to remain optimistic. Losing Laser Lock on the Scatterlasers should help reduce the potency of those Wave Serpents, and if the Wraithknight and anything else that gets access to D weapons gets jacked way up in points, then it's not like those weapons will be rampant.

Also, having to take a Vyper, and a bunch of other set things before you can take anything else in that big formation (which I have a feeling has other limits that we haven't seen yet) will also help keep the army from steamrolling.

Also, who is going to take the 3 Crimson Hunter formation...?

[Mr Mystery]

Are Wraithknights not still fairly easy to knack though? To get the Invulnerable save, they would lose SD, leaving them relatively easy prey for lascannon and missile launcher?

[Lord Mayhem]

I love the WD article about how they throw the Wraithknight up against a bunch of other different big baddies, and how it totally wastes them, and this is supposed to be a good thing. The only thing it struggled against a little was the Imperial Knight.

It's like, c'mon GW, that's not a sign of a good thing, that's a sign of an OVERPOWERED thing.



Regarding the battle "reports", a couple of points to consider:
1) What were the relative point costs of the units?
2)The opponents appeared to have been chosen for a battle of the titans cage match ( rule of cool). How many Lascannon could IG field for the points? Or how about Gargoyles with poison? DE warriors? How would those work out? These were isolated one on one fights, not part of an army, so not too representative of a actual battle.
3) So far I have seen little indication of how the battles were set up; terrain? Board size? It seems most of the battles were set up for melee fights, which favor a melee configured WK
4) How many of each battle were run, before they got the one they reported? How many results were just great dice?
5) WD battle reports always hype up the new unit/Army, so should be taken with a grain of salt

[ShadowcatX]

I love the WD article about how they throw the Wraithknight up against a bunch of other different big baddies, and how it totally wastes them, and this is supposed to be a good thing. The only thing it struggled against a little was the Imperial Knight.

It's like, c'mon GW, that's not a sign of a good thing, that's a sign of an OVERPOWERED thing.

No, it isn't. It isn't a sign of anything to be honest, because we don't have enough information for it to be a sign of anything and because it is anecdotal. Let's at least see its full rules before we start throwing out OVERPOWERED (in all caps, no less).

[40kGamer]

No, it isn't. It isn't a sign of anything to be honest, because we don't have enough information for it to be a sign of anything and because it is anecdotal. Let's at least see its full rules before we start throwing out OVERPOWERED (in all caps, no less).

Absolutely... a high PV and LOW status would almost guarantee it doesn't reach OP status.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm thinking one week release...

Local manager has not been able to book annual leave for next weekend (24th April) nor weekend after (1st May). And nice as Eldars is, they're not 'no holiday, we need all hands on deck' nice.

I'm betting Warhammer the week after.

[40kGamer]

I'm thinking one week release...

Local manager has not been able to book annual leave for next weekend (24th April) nor weekend after (1st May). And nice as Eldars is, they're not 'no holiday, we need all hands on deck' nice.

I'm betting Warhammer the week after.

I hope it's WFB the week after. I need a long lead time for a 2016 event I would like to attend and I do not want to touch a model until I see what 9th offers up. Eldar are a solids seller but not a no time off type of release so maybe it does herald something really big.

[Subs]

I don't think we've seen anywhere near all the Core or Auxiliary formations that are going to be available or that we have all the information on those we have seen. Also they've got to explain how the Forge World models fit into that structure.

[Mr Mystery]

Then again.....there's apparently a redirect for Age of Darkness on the GW main site....so that could be what's blocking the hols.

Interested to finds out anyways!

[Erik Setzer]

Are Wraithknights not still fairly easy to knack though? To get the Invulnerable save, they would lose SD, leaving them relatively easy prey for lascannon and missile launcher?

Local GW manager was relaying some thoughts and comments from reading the WD (since he can...), and it sounds like it's not really "easy prey." You can get an inv. save and a SD close combat weapon, might cut the range, but heck, you're talking a 12" move and all, it can get into combat pretty quickly. As opposed to a Knight, you can't take off more than one wound at a time, unless you can do Instant Death (possibly the AdMech weapons work as well). Sniper and Poison only wound on a 6. Also gives it Feel No Pain. So the bugger is a lot tougher to kill now, as you can't just take it down with snipers and stuff like that. Even if it didn't have an inv. save against something like a lascannon, it'll have the FNP roll.

[Mr Mystery]

It gets feel no pain?

Is that a new thing? It sounds new?

[Erik Setzer]

Or how about Gargoyles with poison? DE warriors? How would those work out?

Not as well as you'd hope. Have to roll 6 to wound.* Sure, you get a lot of shots, but it's no better than Necron Warriors firing gauss weapons. And then it has at least a 3+ armor save, plus FNP save.

*Gargantuan Monstrous Creature rule, in case you're wondering.

[Mr Mystery]

Ah! I see.

Reckon it's Defo going to be a Lord of War.

[Erik Setzer]

It gets feel no pain?

Is that a new thing? It sounds new?

Wraithknight is now a Gargantuan Creature. All GCs get Feel No Pain, according to the rulebook. Plus Fear, Fearless, Relentless, 12" move, Move Through Cover, Hammer of Wrath, Stomp attacks, and some other goodness. Including Instant Death only does D3 wounds, and Poison and Sniper weapons only wound on a 6 unless their Strength is high enough to wound on a better roll.

[Mr Mystery]

Gotcha.

Nice, and very suiting it being an Eldar Knight.

Might also give Forgeworld some inspiration, seeing as it's now well hard - might have been why they held off.

Well, that and Heresy!

[Defenestratus]

So it looks like a one week release unfortunately. Wonder where those shining spears are fitting in? I'm willing to bet that you could take the torso and lance arm pieces from the existing spears kit and apply it to the new jetbike rider... thats what I did with my Russian ones and they turned out... ok.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PJCuW2LmN6c/Ug6TuFUwyWI/AAAAAAAAqlA/mvs6HhoPAx0/w1594-h1195-no/IMG_20130816_170329.jpg

[40kGamer]

Against most infantry/MC units, its already the kiss of death...

The big T6 gribblies are going to be miffed. :)

- - - Updated - - -


The fact that GW used to make rules for smaller games before they made them even less viable shows that the company itself knows small size games aren't really doable with the basic rules. They even sell a set of rules for small scale games... but as it's digital and separate from the rules people already pay $85 for, it's often ignored..

We still use the old, old combat partrol rules from 4th I believe? Restrictions on # wounds, armour, MC's, no flyer's... still holds up well. Also the game plays well in Zone Mortalis where like 75% of the stuff available can't be used.

[Hal]

...and I think that new cover is nicer than the previous one.

Except the very obviously copy pasted guardians behind the warlock. :-/
I prefer the old farseer cover.

[eosgreen]

im dieing to see ulthwe and alaitoc rules..... i remember that small booklet for various armys, black templar, eldar craftworlds. made each craftworld ACTUALLY different on every level

[Defenestratus]

Except the very obviously copy pasted guardians behind the warlock. :-/
I prefer the old farseer cover.

I always thought that the farseer on the cover had a bit of a beer gut to be an eldar honestly.

[daboarder]

It is well and truely looking like GW has done a usual and completely changed design philosphy mid cycle again, leaving the same old codexes in the scrub.

Oh wait, no GW was "balancing" the game when they released books like Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids (Vanilla)....sure and like clock work that last right up until something like this is released.

Honestly while we dont know a lot of information yet, assuming the WD is accurate there is a world of hurt coming for anyone who lines up against an Eldar army again.

Bet you banshee's still suck though

- - - Updated - - -


So it looks like a one week release unfortunately. Wonder where those shining spears are fitting in? I'm willing to bet that you could take the torso and lance arm pieces from the existing spears kit and apply it to the new jetbike rider... thats what I did with my Russian ones and they turned out... ok.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PJCuW2LmN6c/Ug6TuFUwyWI/AAAAAAAAqlA/mvs6HhoPAx0/w1594-h1195-no/IMG_20130816_170329.jpg

that looks really cool, I like how simple changes make the model look like he's leaning forward in the saddle like a proper jousting knight

[ShadowcatX]

It is too early to be calling Eldar broken and *****ing about the older codices. Can that please hold off until we at least have 3 units spoiled? Is that too much to ask?

[daboarder]

you'll notice the caveat's in my post about the volume of information we have. It is possible that Eldar units have seen a Significant change in price.....but thats not the word I'm getting from mates that are usually in the know this far out from release.

[DarkLink]

Considering that some unit profiles have been leaked, this isn't nearly as speculative as you seem to think. These aren't rumors here, and there will need to be some pretty massive drawbacks to counter some of the confirmed stuff.

[eosgreen]

you'll notice the caveat's in my post about the volume of information we have. It is possible that Eldar units have seen a Significant change in price.....but thats not the word I'm getting from mates that are usually in the know this far out from release.

i remember getting two hero blister packs for 12 bucks lol. THEY WERE METAL so "better" than finecast and 1 half the price. 20 got me a cofex and 25 got me an avatar now its 40... its just crazy

[daboarder]

i remember getting two hero blister packs for 12 bucks lol. THEY WERE METAL so "better" than finecast and 1 half the price. 20 got me a cofex and 25 got me an avatar now its 40... its just crazy
I meant pts wise

- - - Updated - - -


Considering that some unit profiles have been leaked, this isn't nearly as speculative as you seem to think. These aren't rumors here, and there will need to be some pretty massive drawbacks to counter some of the confirmed stuff.

Yeah i know people who've seen them. Just haven't myself

[DarkLink]

Pics are on dakka. I've seen them. About the only thing that isn't confirmed (of the units people are talking about, that is) is the precise point costs of Wraithknights or Wraithguard.

[Lord Mayhem]

I noticed something interesting in the formation chart; for the Vauls engines choice it refers to "unit of" Falcons or Nightspinners or fire prisms. Unless they're just being seriously generic, that suggests we could be seeing Tank squadrons, like the IG with Leman Russ, which I seem to recall is a change

[daboarder]

Pics are on dakka. I've seen them. About the only thing that isn't confirmed (of the units people are talking about, that is) is the precise point costs of Wraithknights or Wraithguard.

so the jetbike obscenity is a thing? wonderful :rolleyes:

Edit: alright new game....name a unit that can actually survive 40 pseudo rending shots that come in at a cost of 270 pts.

Cause anout all i can think of is landraider

[Mr Mystery]

Blimey they're packing heat on those Jetbikes!

But then, in the words of Carl in Starship Troopers - 'we're in this for the species people!'

[Gamgee]

I'm not going to play Eldar players at all until this codex is fixed. I encourage everyone to turn down all Eldar players. It doesn't matter how much or how little they cheese. We need to send a message to Games Workshop. We aren't going to tollerate a codex this blatantly broken and overpowered. The more we rally togeather and put an end to this the swifter we can be rid of this obsenity.

The Eldar Codex has now become so overpowered in relation to every other codex that it's at risk of completely breaking any sort of fairness or competitive spirit. We're beyond needing some nerfs. This is full blown nerf nuke time. Until that happens all I can say is turn down every Eldar player you can. The Codex needs to sit in judgement for its obscene crimes against balance. We need to make it just another horrible memory like GK's and Fish of Fury.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_0OCZC8TVY

[Aldavaer]

It would be nice if we could wait until we see the full codex before deciding the world has ended.

we have only seen some? formations, full info on the windriderss and the fact distort weapons will be Str D, we do not know about any changes in point costs to any other units, FOC slots, unit sizes, special rules or unit upgrades.

The new windriders will hit hard but they are still relatively squishy, fully kitted out necron tomblades are cheaper, a lot tougher and not that far behind on firepower.

Wraithguard with Dscythes as Str D would be strong, but it is still a slow moving infantry unit with a 12in range. If there is a rule meaning they cannot use transports for instance they are suddenly looking a lot less attractive for the points.

[Mr Mystery]

Not sure if being srs or not....but in either case, hush you silly monkey!

We've see a handful of rules. Far too early to be twisting melons over.

[Gamgee]

Oh I think we know the Eldar could hypothetically end up balanced, but I could also win the lottery tomorrow six consecutive times. If the codex is balanced then no need for any of this, but I'm preparing for the worst.

If it's as broken as anticipated then I'm fully serious. All too serious. Me and several others across many forums. Which could quickly become many many... disappointed others. Already talk of banning ranged D weapons in tournaments.

13686

[Lost Vyper]

The Eldar Codex has now become so overpowered in relation to every other codex that it's at risk of completely breaking any sort of fairness or competitive spirit. We're beyond needing some nerfs. This is full blown nerf nuke time. Until that happens all I can say is turn down every Eldar player you can.

13688

[Mr Mystery]

Oh I think we know the Eldar could hypothetically end up balanced, but I could also win the lottery tomorrow six consecutive times. If the codex is balanced then no need for any of this, but I'm preparing for the worst.

If it's as broken as anticipated then I'm fully serious. All too serious. Me and several others across many forums. Which could quickly become many many... disappointed others. Already talk of banning ranged D weapons in tournaments.

13686

Most of which have a 12" range, yes?

That's really quite easy to keep outside of. And they'll need a Waveserpent Taxi to get into range in the first place, further adding to the points required to field them in significant quantities - as well as limiting the overall squad size.

Yes, SD is incredibly nasty. Very, very nasty. But only against really big stuff - stuff which should be able to avoid it as necessary. To an infantryman, being shot in the moosh by SD is little different to being gibbed by a Krak Missile - it's still pretty much a 2+ for your opponent to decorate the nearest wall in a pleasing shade of brain.

[ShadowcatX]

Oh I think we know the Eldar could hypothetically end up balanced, but I could also win the lottery tomorrow six consecutive times. If the codex is balanced then no need for any of this, but I'm preparing for the worst.

If it's as broken as anticipated then I'm fully serious. All too serious. Me and several others across many forums. Which could quickly become many many... disappointed others. Already talk of banning ranged D weapons in tournaments.

13686

You're not being prepared, you're being a baby. You are crying over a codex with 1 unit entry known. Seriously, 1 entry.

And back when you had to field an Imperial model to get strength D weapons, they were fine. But now that they are in xenos hands you want people to deny us games? But that's alright, cry marine player, cry We will drink your tears and then get games with adults.

[Mr Mystery]

Just thinking more about it - who is genuinely affected by lots of SD weapons?

Nids are probably a bit concerned, as the resilience of their biggest bugs goes down the pan at that point. Funny as it might be on occasion, having your Carnifex single shotted would get dull fairly quickly. But then, they have lots (and lots) of little bugs, who if kept within synapse can tie up those 'orrible units more or less indefinitely, and at the very least provide a handy cover save.

Again, I cannot stress enough the limitation the most common wraith weapon has - a 12" range, and Assault 1. That's stupendously short ranged. Hideously so. To really get them into play, they'll be wanting a Waveserpent, limiting their squad size to 5 (or is it 6? Can't properly recall). Which sounds great, except it's further expense, and it still needs to get close to their intended target to drop them off in-range. Because if they're not in range when deployed (I can see your rear armour......) your choice target will either stomp them in combat (Nids, Greater Daemons) because the risk of Snapshots is nothing compared to letting them chase you, nick off (tanks), or blow them to bits (Battle Cannons and supporting infantry type stuff).

And if an opponent takes no steps to make the most of your short ranged Wraithcannon? That's not the fault of the Eldar Codex.

[-Tom-]

I'm not going to play Eldar players at all until this codex is fixed. I encourage everyone to turn down all Eldar players. It doesn't matter how much or how little they cheese. We need to send a message to Games Workshop. We aren't going to tollerate a codex this blatantly broken and overpowered. The more we rally togeather and put an end to this the swifter we can be rid of this obsenity.


I'm not sure how this will send a message to GW? I for one certainly don't pass on a record of games I play.

Obviously, as has always been the case, you're entitled to play, or not play, anyone you want. Unless you're at a tournament I suppose and then will be in a position of playing who you get drawn to play against, or who you need to play based on score/rankings.

Sure, there's probably going to be something overpowered coming from the new codex, because that's generally what happens. Someone finds a new trick and then it takes people a while to work out how to counter it. Eventually the competitive meta shifts.

I'm remembering a game I played against a friend when Escalation first came out. He wanted to try out taking a Stompa in a 1500 point game. He crammed a load of Mekboys into it, and had grots as his units, so it wasn't even an 'unbound' list. This was before 7th Ed, and was a fully legal list. The Mekboys could repair the Stompa each round for more Hull points than I could possibly take off it. It could fire an apocalyptic blast template (so it didn't even really matter that much if it scattered a bit, chances are it would still hit). It had a stomp attack, and the Strength D CC weapon. I had a Wraithknight with 2 Heavy wraithcannons, a unit of 7 rangers (to hopefully be able to grab objectives with), a fire prism and a couple of guardian units with antigrav platforms in wave serpents. Now, I got overly lucky with 6s on his first turn, as he aimed to obliterate the rangers with the massive template. For their 2-up or 3-up cover saves I rolled 7 6's. After that, the dice gods felt the need to redress the balance and on my first turn, lots of 1's were rolled. All the damage I did to the stompa was then repaired in his next turn and at that point I started to lose units. I was tabled by turn 3, and thanks to the Mekboys the stompa was probably in better condition at the end of the game than at the start. It was fully repaired to full hull points, and they probably even had time to install fancy TVs in the back of all the headrests.

Now, we started off that game with it being a "let's see how horrible this is" mentality. It wasn't like he just sprung it on me. It was horrible, and it would have been a bit of a dick move to just spring that list on anyone. That said, it's an allowable list so I don't see any reason to not take that to a 1500pt tournament that allowed Lords of War. Should we advocate not playing against Orks in 1500pt games to get a message out to GW?

So, based on my experience in that game, personally, I like the idea of Eldar getting some D weapons. I've not seen the codex itself, I don't know how points costs will be affected, or what exactly the rules will be. Like others, I've looked at some leaked photos of snippets from WD which give a bit of a 'gist', and there's maybe newer photos that I've not seen.

Flavour-wise it kind of feels right that Distortion weapons / Wraithcannons have some link to being 'Strength D'. They're meant to be some of the most hideously destructive weapons in the 40k universe. Under the basis that they're tearing chunks out of things and pulling them into the warp, I think you ought to be justifying why to NOT have them as D weapons. Especially as other armies have D weapons creeping into their normal codex entries, I definitely welcome a move to have at least some in the Eldar codex too. Most the time, as Mystery said, it's irrelevant - it doesn't matter to your T3 guardsman, or even a T4 space marine, or for that matter, even a T5 SM character or demon prince, if they get hit by a S10 heavy wraithcannon shot or a SD shot. It's instant death anyway until the target is T6+. Even then, on a wound roll of 6, it's still instant death with the current rules. The only thing it will really make much of a change against is going against superheavies or gargantuan creatures.

Now, I'm speculating, but what if for D-scythes or small Wraithcannons like the Wraithguard have the rule comes in to replace the 'Distort' rule that is in the current codex, so that on a To Wound roll of 6, the weapon counts as strength D rather than just having the Instant Death rule? Maybe this has already been ruled out as to how it could be working and I'm forgetting something, or not seen some info.

[Charon]

Now, I'm speculating, but what if for D-scythes or small Wraithcannons like the Wraithguard have the rule comes in to replace the 'Distort' rule that is in the current codex, so that on a To Wound roll of 6, the weapon counts as strength D rather than just having the Instant Death rule?

Would be pretty clunky.
You first roll to hit, then you roll to wound/pen and then on a 6 you roll on a table again to have your wound/pen cancelled to "Luck! No damage this time" ?

[-Tom-]

Would be pretty clunky.
You first roll to hit, then you roll to wound/pen and then on a 6 you roll on a table again to have your wound/pen cancelled to "Luck! No damage this time" ?

Fair point.

Could be on a 'to hit' roll of 6 that it goes to D table instead then perhaps, but again, pure speculation about what would make it not just D all the time and therefore less of a change. However, my main point was really just to wait until the codex actually comes out before having **** fits guessing what rules and costs will be. :)

Edit: That 'to-hit' would be for small wraith cannons, not d-scythes, as Mystery points out. Might even just be re-wording of current distort rule that makes them more like D weapons vs super heavies rather than revert to D table under x criteria.

[Mr Mystery]

Trouble there, is template and blast weapons don't roll to hit :p

[StingrayP226]

I'm not going to play Eldar players at all until this codex is fixed. I encourage everyone to turn down all Eldar players. It doesn't matter how much or how little they cheese. We need to send a message to Games Workshop. We aren't going to tollerate a codex this blatantly broken and overpowered. The more we rally togeather and put an end to this the swifter we can be rid of this obsenity.

So your saying as a potential new player who has picked Eldar due to Lore/looks I should be punished and never allowed to play my army of choice, or worse the player who has invested $1000+ into their army that they love.

Instead we are forced to buy a new army simply because this one is too OP... even if we don't use the OP units we are to be shunned.

Well if this does happen (which it will not) I will not touch 40k with a 100 foot pole. Nope instead I will focus on other games where I can play the army I picked on looks/lore. This is the worse suggestion I've ever heard...

If you do not like the direction GW is going then YOU should quit the game instead of trying to punish others for not playing your list of "OK to play" armies.

[Mr Mystery]

Stingray has the right of it.

Eldar have a long established and very passionate player base, in the same way as all armies do. And in their classic incarnation, they've hit like a tonne of bricks, but folded like a cheap suit when hit back.

For me? I remember 2nd Edition Epic, and 2nd Edition 40k.

D-Weapons were effing nasty. Yes, they were toned down for 3rd Ed as everything was, but I argue it wasn't necessary. These bad boys are pretty much chucking Black Holes around.

Balancing factor in their earlier, really hard incarnations? A massive lack of accuracy. They scattered twice, meaning they could end up anywhere within 20" of the intended target, and to get it bang on require rather more luck than judgement.

And here's the rub....we don't yet know exactly how they're going to turn out. We've seen in the WD snippet that Wraith Weapons mean Eldar have more SD guns than anyone else. And that's all we've got. We don't yet have the full picture, and if I'm right and this turns out to be a one week release, we probably won't know until around this time next week, when Codex pics are usually seeping out into the foetid mire of the internets.

If they've gone back to the customary 'EAT BLACKHOLE' nature of Distort Weapons (and they should. It's firing a Black Hole at you!), then I also reckon we'll see the distinct 'bum, missed!' that usually followed.

[daboarder]

You know, I think they could make guardians 28 pts a piece and it compulsory to take two squads.....and those jetbikes would still be competative.....thats is truly bat**** insane

[eldargal]

Eldar are supposed to be nasty though, the trouble is people haven't really had nasty eldar since 2nd edition. We've had gimmick eldar. A couple of very tough units the army is built around, falcons, fire dragons, wave serpents etc. Now my hope is from what we are seeing with this list we will see Eldar back to being uniformly nasty BUT with a high cost and T3 4/5+ bodies. A big old nasty glass cannon. Not just meatsacks hiding in wave serpents.

[Defenestratus]

I'm not going to play Eldar players at all until this codex is fixed. I encourage everyone to turn down all Eldar players. It doesn't matter how much or how little they cheese. We need to send a message to Games Workshop. We aren't going to tollerate a codex this blatantly broken and overpowered. The more we rally togeather and put an end to this the swifter we can be rid of this obsenity.

The Eldar Codex has now become so overpowered in relation to every other codex that it's at risk of completely breaking any sort of fairness or competitive spirit. We're beyond needing some nerfs. This is full blown nerf nuke time. Until that happens all I can say is turn down every Eldar player you can. The Codex needs to sit in judgement for its obscene crimes against balance. We need to make it just another horrible memory like GK's and Fish of Fury.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_0OCZC8TVY

Internet butthurt level has reached defcon 2.

If the Wave serpent is indeed not nerfed (as I'm expecting now) then I fear we might be getting launch code confirmations.

Step away from the ledge there.. holy smokes.

- - - Updated - - -




If they've gone back to the customary 'EAT BLACKHOLE' nature of Distort Weapons (and they should. It's firing a Black Hole at you!), then I also reckon we'll see the distinct 'bum, missed!' that usually followed.

They're arguably worse than black holes. They're opening a hole directly to the warp - kind of like what Imperial Starships do right before they translate.

Except the poor sods getting shot by distortion weapons don't have a geller field, and its often that half of their body wants to get sucked into the warp, the other half doesn't.

[daboarder]

Eldar are supposed to be nasty though, the trouble is people haven't really had nasty eldar since 2nd edition. We've had gimmick eldar. A couple of very tough units the army is built around, falcons, fire dragons, wave serpents etc. Now my hope is from what we are seeing with this list we will see Eldar back to being uniformly nasty BUT with a high cost and T3 4/5+ bodies. A big old nasty glass cannon. Not just meatsacks hiding in wave serpents.

so one, theres this thing about two player games......they are two player games.

Also EVERYTHING in 40k is obscenely nasty, hell the Tyranids eat planets, I dont care who you are, EVERYTHING in the galaxy is scared witless of them, eldar included.

But this is a game and the rules and powers are relative to the rules and powers of the other factions who also have their deathstars and doom weapons galore in the background, thats no excuse for making an obscenity and mockery of the game

[Defenestratus]

Fair point.

Could be on a 'to hit' roll of 6 that it goes to D table instead then perhaps, but again, pure speculation about what would make it not just D all the time and therefore less of a change. However, my main point was really just to wait until the codex actually comes out before having **** fits guessing what rules and costs will be. :)

Edit: That 'to-hit' would be for small wraith cannons, not d-scythes, as Mystery points out. Might even just be re-wording of current distort rule that makes them more like D weapons vs super heavies rather than revert to D table under x criteria.

I keep trying to scream this from the mountaintops but the doomsayers keep trying to drown me out... the upgrade to str D for WK and WG isn't all that much of a buff over their existing stats EXCEPT against heavy armor, garg creatures, a super heavies.

I'm telling you the most butthurt I've been reading is coming from people who bought 3 Knights and are pissed off now that their toys might be easily removed (as if Eldar had a problem with that in the first place, favorite knight ploy ever.. drop off fire dragons in front of the knight, ask which side the shield is protecting, battlefocus to the other side and kill it - won't make you any friends).

People are really going to start thinking about whether or not they should put a super-heavy walker in their list since, against WG anyways, an equal points total of marines would be a much better value.

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so the jetbike obscenity is a thing? wonderful :rolleyes:

Edit: alright new game....name a unit that can actually survive 40 pseudo rending shots that come in at a cost of 270 pts.

Cause anout all i can think of is landraider

If you're taking scatter lasers (40 shots) you don't get bladestorm.

It would be 30 shots with pseudo rending and hey... it sounds like there actually IS a reason they put invisibility in as a psychic power!

[ShadowcatX]

You know, I think they could make guardians 28 pts a piece and it compulsory to take two squads.....and those jetbikes would still be competative.....thats is truly bat**** insane

Those jetbikes you are so afraid of have the basic stat line of a space marine and cost 27 points a piece (after weapon upgrade). Yes, they will be good, but they'll still die easy enough. Eldar are supposed to hit hard. Arrogance, fire power, kinda our thing. . .

[Mr Mystery]

I keep trying to scream this from the mountaintops but the doomsayers keep trying to drown me out... the upgrade to str D for WK and WG isn't all that much of a buff over their existing stats EXCEPT against heavy armor, garg creatures, a super heavies.

I'm telling you the most butthurt I've been reading is coming from people who bought 3 Knights and are pissed off now that their toys might be easily removed (as if Eldar had a problem with that in the first place, favorite knight ploy ever.. drop off fire dragons in front of the knight, ask which side the shield is protecting, battlefocus to the other side and kill it - won't make you any friends).

People are really going to start thinking about whether or not they should put a super-heavy walker in their list since, against WG anyways, an equal points total of marines would be a much better value.



Yup. And I would wager this is the way of things to come.

Biggest issue with LoW is a lack of really big guns to tackle them, short of another LoW.

Even if you don't play Eldar, in a tournament or pick up scene, Eldar are popular enough to prove food for thought for all others. So there is a distinct knock-on benefit.

[daboarder]

If you're taking scatter lasers (40 shots) you don't get bladestorm.

It would be 30 shots with pseudo rending and hey... it sounds like there actually IS a reason they put invisibility in as a psychic power!

EDIT: Yeah man, your right I mixed up the two, still stupid to let all jetbikes upgrade/.

EDIT: And if all this was to make a single psychic power relevant, well most of the armies dont even get access to it.
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Those jetbikes you are so afraid of have the basic stat line of a space marine and cost 27 points a piece (after weapon upgrade). Yes, they will be good, but they'll still die easy enough. Eldar are supposed to hit hard. Arrogance, fire power, kinda our thing. . .

And shoot 36 inches, move a mile a turn, can opt for jinking if they need it etc etc.

You know what, **** GW and their arms race, what a joke.

[ShadowcatX]

And shoot 36 inches, move a mile a turn, can opt for jinking if they need it etc etc.

Yes, they're fast. Gasp, shock, horror. They're space elves. We've always been fast.


You know what, **** GW and their arms race, what a joke.

Does this mean you're leaving the game? I might be interested in picking up your models if so. Message me.

[daboarder]

Yes, they're fast. Gasp, shock, horror. They're space elves. We've always been fast.



Does this mean you're leaving the game? I might be interested in picking up your models if so. Message me.

You know whats going to be funny, if they dont change banshee's....whats your attitude going to be like then I wonder?

Actually I want to elaborate a little here.

So, Eldar players are throwing out the term "ELDAR are SUPPOSED to be superfralicagilistic awesome etc etc etc".....but think, just think. Do you REALLY think that its going to be entertaining of "fun" game for the players that are going to get stuck facing you using that? Really?

At the same time you will want sympathy for being unable to run banshess because they are bad (and I get it, I really do, I wish I could run stealers). So maybe, if you want some community compassion it would be nice of you to return the favour.

On a side note, I find it hilarious that the posters (No def not you or shadowcat) that normally go out of their way to reprimand others for not taking into consideration their opponents feelings about a "fun game", are rolling around on the floor in proverbial ecstasy at the thought of using what appears to be some pretty OP rules on their opponents....what happened to compromise to create a fun experience for both players?*

[ShadowcatX]

You know whats going to be funny, if they dont change banshee's....whats your attitude going to be like then I wonder?

I've always been partial to Striking Scorpions actually, but I get what you're saying. I'll be disappointed, that's one of the things I'm looking forward to most. But it isn't like I'm fielding either unit as it is so I'll deal with it. And it is a very real possibility that they won't get upgraded, they're still finecast (which makes me wish I still had my old pewter ones).

But you know what, even if they don't get upgraded, I'll still have massed S6 firepower from bikes and strength D weaponry from my wraith units. :D

[daboarder]

But you know what, even if they don't get upgraded, I'll still have massed S6 firepower from bikes and strength D weaponry from my wraith units. :D

Cheeky sod!;)

[Erik Setzer]

Well, the thing is, somewhere along the line, Eldar stopped being a "glass cannon." The Wraithknight got nastier with its weaponry... but also got a LOT tougher to kill, too. Wraithlords take some serious shooting, typically can't down them in one good shot like a tank. Wraithguard are tougher than they were in 2nd edition. And then there's the Wave Serpent, their basic transport, which is a pretty darned survivable tank.

Sure, the Aspect Warriors and Guardians are low Toughness and not much armor, but they're rarely seen. Why bother? You've got all this stuff that's hard to kill and deals a lot of damage.

I'm not going to decline playing Eldar players, but I'm not sure how it's going to affect my gaming. Even the Eldar players in the local group reading this stuff are thinking it's a bit too nasty (especially the guy who'd been playing Iyanden). I just know one guy is going to pick up Eldar just so he can figure out every trick he can with them. Other players will participate in an "arms race" to beat the more tricked-out Eldar. I'll give it time to see how it goes, but it makes me glad I've started researching options for other games to play, so at least I'm prepared in case things go too far downhill. I'll reserve serious judgment until the codex is in my hands, and final judgment until I see how it's affected the games, but I'm not sure I hold out much hope.

[ShadowcatX]

Cheeky sod!;)

I'm glad you took that in the spirit it was said. Sometimes tone is hard to convey over the net. :)

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Sure, the Aspect Warriors and Guardians are low Toughness and not much armor, but they're rarely seen. Why bother? You've got all this stuff that's hard to kill and deals a lot of damage.

Some of us actually want to play aspect warriors because we like them. But I'm not going to field a unit to do what flayed ones can do better for 80 points less while being significantly more survivable.

[daboarder]

I'm glad you took that in the spirit it was said. Sometimes tone is hard to convey over the net. :)

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Some of us actually want to play aspect warriors because we like them. But I'm not going to field a unit to do what flayed ones can do better for 80 points less while being significantly more survivable.

I was very tempted to swear at you, I admit it, but the smilie helper :)

[Charon]

Well, the thing is, somewhere along the line, Eldar stopped being a "glass cannon."

They never were in the first place.
They always had durable wraith constructs and decent tanks (even better in 2nd with pop-up attacks) as well as medicore or good armor saves (except for guardians and rangers).

[ShadowcatX]

I was very tempted to swear at you, I admit it, but the smilie helper :)

We all want the same thing, good games and fun times. And that means that on a basic level, we all want the codices to be balanced. We might disagree what balanced is but we all want it.

[Erik Setzer]

They never were in the first place.
They always had durable wraith constructs and decent tanks (even better in 2nd with pop-up attacks) as well as medicore or good armor saves (except for guardians and rangers).

In 2nd edition there was a lot of high-strength and nasty weapons around to combat the armor. Even Orks had access to stuff like lascannons while also having BS3. And you could put a unit on Overwatch and pop those suckers when they did their pop-up attacks.

The way the Eldar army was designed back then (and even really the game in general), you saw a lot more of the Guardians and Aspect Warriors. They were pretty effective, but could die pretty easy if you screwed up.

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Some of us actually want to play aspect warriors because we like them. But I'm not going to field a unit to do what flayed ones can do better for 80 points less while being significantly more survivable.

That's kind of my point... People might like certain units, but other units are too good to pass up, especially when even "narrative" games become beatfests. I love the look and concept of Burna Boyz, but no way I'm paying 16 points each for a unit that will get shredded the moment it shows its face. I could throw them in a Battlewagon, but it has to be Open-Topped if I want to charge out of it, and my opponent will know they're in there, and if it blows up, a good number of those expensive models inside will die. And for what? Just to get S3 power weapons, because the army has a serious lack of power weapons that aren't power claws, despite being modeled with so many of them? I could pay one point less per model and get Lootas, who can shoot across much of the table and tear up light vehicles and even work as anti-air in a pinch. Might as well get MegaNobz in Elites, they cost 2.5 times as much as a Burna Boy, but have 2+ instead of 6+, have a power klaw and shoota, S4, +1W, +1A.

I tried running an Eldar army with Guardians and Aspect Warriors, it did okay in some games, not so well in others, but I remember people kept acting like I was an idiot for not just spamming jetbikes, Wraith units, and Wave Serpents. Which kind of seems like how it's going to remain. My condolences.

[Charon]

The way the Eldar army was designed back then (and even really the game in general), you saw a lot more of the Guardians and Aspect Warriors. They were pretty effective, but could die pretty easy if you screwed up.


You did not see many of them.
If it was not one of those games where an Exarch with wings popped Vortex Granades over your stuff, you saw mainly Farseers, Warwalkers, Weapon platforms, Rangers, Dire Avengers and sometimes probably Banshees.
This gameplay is dead and buried thanks to cheap as **** blasts and a galore of special weapons in every army. You could affort this style of play because in an average 1500 points game you had maybe 1 Leman Russ and about 10 special/heavy weapons. If you trie that nowadays on a Footdar list, you will probably die 2nd turn to multiple wyvern batteries and a massive wall of fire while you still try to get your 12" weapons to the front.

[Defenestratus]

I don't know why everyone is complaining. The only players that are really upset over this are the Imperial players, and the week after the Eldar book drops they'll all be playing Horus Heresy anyways.... because in that game, there's no such thing as something smarter, better, faster, deadlier than a knucklehead in power armor!!!!!!1111

[legalsmash]

Wow this thread got huge.
I'm excited about this because new models and annoyed because of short codex life.
I like the idea of running alaiatoc, ulthwe and Iyanden (even though my expensive *** books are now paperweights).

I don't think anyone outside of the neckbeardiest of neckbeards will force a 12 wraithknight list...if they did, why play them?

I definitely hope the knight doesn't become a one model per detachment thing ala lord of war, I have a few of them because they were fun to put together.

Any idea as to what will become of the suncannon/shield combo?

What about my beloved dire avengers?

[Erik Setzer]

The only players that are really upset over this are the Imperial players,

I *would* be upset, but as an Ork player, I've come to accept Games Workshop hates me and all my kin, and I accept that in game terms I'll never have the flashy cool stuff other people do, but I can hammer (sometimes literally) five kits together and still have something usable (though they tried to take that from us, too), so I at least have that up on other armies.

[Defenestratus]

I *would* be upset, but as an Ork player, I've come to accept Games Workshop hates me and all my kin, and I accept that in game terms I'll never have the flashy cool stuff other people do, but I can hammer (sometimes literally) five kits together and still have something usable (though they tried to take that from us, too), so I at least have that up on other armies.

I've seen Orks do really really well. Some dude I played against before I moved took like 40 rokkit launchas in a 2000 point game, it was insane.

I'm considering getting an Ork army just to catch people unawares... they are great fun to play (even if you lose) and modelling for them is a lot more fun than it is for Eldar (where you can't really scratch build a good looking Eldar model from bitz)

[Erik Setzer]

I definitely hope the knight doesn't become a one model per detachment thing ala lord of war, I have a few of them because they were fun to put together.

With the Eldar "detachment" that's been leaked (should be up in this topic somewhere), it looks like you can take multiples in that style of army. A basic CAD? Nope. But that's the tradeoff for becoming more powerful, only the Imperial Knights army (an army made just to sell large models) is capable of taking multiple LOWs with their standard FOC (and that's not even a CAD). If you want more than one, use the "detachment" in the book. Probably won't need more than one in most games, but I completely understand wanting to use something you think looks awesome and that you put money, time, and effort into.

[Defenestratus]

With the Eldar "detachment" that's been leaked (should be up in this topic somewhere), it looks like you can take multiples in that style of army. A basic CAD? Nope. But that's the tradeoff for becoming more powerful, only the Imperial Knights army (an army made just to sell large models) is capable of taking multiple LOWs with their standard FOC (and that's not even a CAD). If you want more than one, use the "detachment" in the book. Probably won't need more than one in most games, but I completely understand wanting to use something you think looks awesome and that you put money, time, and effort into.

If you take the guardian host then you can take up to 12 Wraithknights. However, if you take more than 2, you'll probably not have much leftover for the rest of your army.

[Gamgee]

So your saying as a potential new player who has picked Eldar due to Lore/looks I should be punished and never allowed to play my army of choice, or worse the player who has invested $1000+ into their army that they love.

Instead we are forced to buy a new army simply because this one is too OP... even if we don't use the OP units we are to be shunned.

Well if this does happen (which it will not) I will not touch 40k with a 100 foot pole. Nope instead I will focus on other games where I can play the army I picked on looks/lore. This is the worse suggestion I've ever heard...

If you do not like the direction GW is going then YOU should quit the game instead of trying to punish others for not playing your list of "OK to play" armies.

An unfortunate reality. I never wanted it to happen, but some people HAVE to do something to get GW attention. If we get your attention the Eldar players and then in turn we all complain and create a huge bitter rage fest between our two groups. We'll get GW to intervene. Perhaps sooner than 2 years as an exception to this abomination of a codex. It's going to really have to suck for Eldar players though to get GW attention.

Considering the same thing has happened to GK in the past and Tau I'm not seeing why Eldar players new, old, fair, cheesy, or any combination should be any exception to the rules.


Internet butthurt level has reached defcon 2.

If the Wave serpent is indeed not nerfed (as I'm expecting now) then I fear we might be getting launch code confirmations.

Step away from the ledge there.. holy smokes.

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They're arguably worse than black holes. They're opening a hole directly to the warp - kind of like what Imperial Starships do right before they translate.

Except the poor sods getting shot by distortion weapons don't have a geller field, and its often that half of their body wants to get sucked into the warp, the other half doesn't.
Nope not stepping away from the ledge until I know the codex is somehow all balanced.

[Erik Setzer]

I've seen Orks do really really well. Some dude I played against before I moved took like 40 rokkit launchas in a 2000 point game, it was insane.

I'm considering getting an Ork army just to catch people unawares... they are great fun to play (even if you lose) and modelling for them is a lot more fun than it is for Eldar (where you can't really scratch build a good looking Eldar model from bitz)

Spamming rokkit launchas is meh. Effective, sure, I suppose, but I like having lots of different things in my army. I hear a Green Tide around a Stompa is also pretty potent, but whenever I bring out the Stompa I have to deal with incessant whining (get used to that with the Wraithknights, Eldar players!).

The modeling is what I really love about Orks. I really need to paint my Daemonkin army, and some more stuff I just primed for my Iron Warriors (40K and 30K), but I also really, really want to break out a few boxes of bits and old vehicle hulls and stuff and convert some Deathskullz Lootas and vehicles and paint them up (because I also have a serious itching for painting some blue). With Eldar you can do some painting fun, but conversions are more limited. I was thinking of converting some basic Eldar stuff to mix with my Harlequins to do a full Harlequin force (and I might even have an old Harlequin Wraithlord or two somewhere). Sadly someone else beat me to getting models done, but it's still a fun project to consider, and I'm glad I held off so I can do it with the new codex.

That's your reason to take Crimson Hunters, though: Awesome model to paint. Though yeah, they will die if they get hit. (Given what I did to a pair of Space Wolf flyers in a game, though, I'm not going to complain about the CH's survivability any more.)

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If you take the guardian host then you can take up to 12 Wraithknights. However, if you take more than 2, you'll probably not have much leftover for the rest of your army.

Yeah, it's a tradeoff. But heck, you can fire at different targets. (No word on if you can charge a different unit, though, so save some weedy weapon to shoot what you want to charge.) So you can fire D weapons at some stuff, charge some other stuff, stomp things, use the Guardians to kill smaller stuff... Heck, you can take a jetbike force as your core. It'll take up a solid chunk of points, but if you can squeeze in those guys and a pair of Wraithknights, you're looking at two GCs with nasty weapons tearing up the big stuff while bikes run around firing scores of S6 at all the smaller stuff, with maybe some brightlances on Vypers. And if the psykers keep alive, they can keep healing the Wraithknights and are quick enough to keep pace with it. That would actually be a pretty effective army with complementary units... I'm tempted to try it out, though it'll cost something like $500. Not sure how "clean" I'd feel afterward.

[ShadowcatX]

I have to deal with incessant whining (get used to that with the Wraithknights, Eldar players!).

Oh wow, we'd better start practicing, we've never had to deal with that before.

That aside, it is worth noting that Eldar players who field the CAD (or even eschew the CAD entirely) can still field the detachments as detachments, you don't have to go with the whole core bit, you just get a bonus if you do. (Assuming this is setup the same way as the Decurion.) As such you (or anyone) can add a wraithknight to their force relatively simply. I'll be at least trying it out with my dark eldar.

[Defenestratus]

Oh wow, we'd better start practicing, we've never had to deal with that before.

I've dealt with this "eldar = cheese" mentality for literally 2/3rd of my life on earth. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Deadlift]

I've seen Orks do really really well. Some dude I played against before I moved took like 40 rokkit launchas in a 2000 point game, it was insane.

I'm considering getting an Ork army just to catch people unawares... they are great fun to play (even if you lose) and modelling for them is a lot more fun than it is for Eldar (where you can't really scratch build a good looking Eldar model from bitz)

I have thought the same, more time spent painting than playing and they are fun to paint.

[Mr Mystery]

If people played as often as they complained, we'd all have a lot more fun.

[eosgreen]

eldar are just cool to me. i like how the units are vastly dif from each other. you look at marines for example...

with "vet sgts which are just the same model basically"
marines with bolters
marines with heavy weps
marines with jetpacks
marines with bikes
marines with hand wep and pistol

eldar are...

guardians with guns but a hovering heavy wep platform and a warlock possibly
teleporting jump packs with special weapons
winged jump packs with grenades they drop
striking scorpions are close to marines style but have the mandiblaster and exarc
howling banshee power weapon mask etc
dire avengers are lame
dark reapers are SIMILAR to devs but for infantry/lots of shots
wraithguard. nuff said

they all get exarc powers which are cool


to me thats why i play eldar. the foot soldiers are all VERY dif

[ShadowcatX]

If people played as often as they complained, we'd all have a lot more fun.

Sig'd. Or so I thought. . . Let's try this again.

[Lord Mayhem]

modelling for them is a lot more fun than it is for Eldar (where you can't really scratch build a good looking Eldar model from bitz)

I'll agree it's much harder,but you can scratch build a decent Eldar model from bitz; I built a Wraith Centaur out of leftovers from several kits, just to see what I could do with them. While it's too big to be a Wraithlord, and too small to be a knight, it is still a distinctly Eldar model. I'll find a picture when I get home.

Gamgee said:

Nope not stepping away from the ledge until I know the codex is somehow all balanced.

Based on your definition of balanced, I assume? Thank you for being the arbiter of that. Personally I feel like waiting until the codex is out and the actual rules can be seen before declaring the sky is falling.
The description from the one snippet of the White Dwarf (which has never been known to exaggerate!) suggests the upgrade is limited to the Distort "Cannon" weapons, which at S10, death on a 6 were already very nasty, but unlike many D weapons are not area affect, so not as devastating as they might be. Better ? Yes. End of the world...not so much.

[Erik Setzer]

That aside, it is worth noting that Eldar players who field the CAD (or even eschew the CAD entirely) can still field the detachments as detachments, you don't have to go with the whole core bit, you just get a bonus if you do. (Assuming this is setup the same way as the Decurion.) As such you (or anyone) can add a wraithknight to their force relatively simply. I'll be at least trying it out with my dark eldar.

Um... Hate to burst your bubble, but I don't think it'll work that way. I know the "detachment" is made up of formations, but that little block seems to be like the one for the Blood Host Detachment that includes their walkers and the Lord of Skulls. It's not an actual formation that you can tack on to a normal army, it's just a selection in the detachment.

However, there is the Wraith formation, which includes a Wraithknight (but also the other Wraith goodness), which you could tack onto a normal CAD (with its own Wraithknight) or a Dark Eldar army.

[ShadowcatX]

Um... Hate to burst your bubble, but I don't think it'll work that way. I know the "detachment" is made up of formations, but that little block seems to be like the one for the Blood Host Detachment that includes their walkers and the Lord of Skulls. It's not an actual formation that you can tack on to a normal army, it's just a selection in the detachment.

However, there is the Wraith formation, which includes a Wraithknight (but also the other Wraith goodness), which you could tack onto a normal CAD (with its own Wraithknight) or a Dark Eldar army.

We'll see, but I greatly suspect you are wrong. Precedent is on my side with the Decurion detachment formations, some of which consist of one unit worth of models.

[Erik Setzer]

We'll see, but I greatly suspect you are wrong. Precedent is on my side with the Decurion detachment formations, some of which consist of one unit worth of models.

Please pick up a copy of Codex: Khorne Daemonkin, which actually sets the precedent for what I was saying. I was specifically using an example from one of these kinds of "detachment." I also don't recall an actual formation in Codex: Necrons that's just one model. Just being a selection choice in the detachment doesn't make something a formation. If there isn't a formation listed, you can't just bring the single model as a "formation," since no such formation exists.

[ShadowcatX]

We disagree. I argue precedent out of the Necron codex, you argue out of the Daemonkin codex. We'll see who is right soon enough.

ETA: Actually, you are correct. You have my apologies.

[Erik Setzer]

We disagree. I argue precedent out of the Necron codex, you argue out of the Daemonkin codex. We'll see who is right soon enough.

ETA: Actually, you are correct. You have my apologies.

It's all good, the new army building methods are getting more and more confusing. Like I said (maybe on another thread?), I've had to explain these things to other gamers who are confused about how you even select an army now, and what's Battle-Forged and Unbound. All the options are nice, but at some point we're going to need an army-building encyclopedia or something...

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An exciting new model making the rounds!

13703

[Gleipnir]

all the new methods taken on there own isn't all the confusing its when ya start using allied detachments that things start getting wonky with IC's jumping around between detachments or transports and the like.

[ShadowcatX]

Is that a real thing or is it a conversion?

[Haighus]

I'm pretty sure it is a conversion :D It has the existing Eldar Farseer on the back. Makes me want to make an Eldar podracer though...

[Erik Setzer]

Is that a real thing or is it a conversion?

I think it's actually a bit of Photoshopping, but it might be a conversion. Someone dropped it into the local GW Facebook chat with the comment "New Eldar L.O.W.!"

A bit of humor for a topic that's gotten a bit testy at times.

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I'm pretty sure it is a conversion :D It has the existing Eldar Farseer on the back. Makes me want to make an Eldar podracer though...

That would be pretty humorous.

And now I wonder why I haven't done that with Orks... Well, aside from the issue that it has to be mostly GW parts for me to be able to use it in the GW store, of course.

[Haighus]

2 Dakkajets with the wings lopped off attached with small chains to a Warbike with no wheels, or one of the Black Reach Deathkoptas without the heli blades. Suitably oversized engines compared to the towed vehicle, just needs a red paint job! :D I have no idea what it could be used as in game rules though. Bit pricey too.

[Houghten]

I have no idea what it could be used as in game rules though.

A Podracer?

[Mr Mystery]

Saddle, dakka and handlebars nailed to an Eldar anti-Grav platform, squig gut ropes hooked up to lots of Rokkit Paks.

[Lord Mayhem]

Those must be the new JetWraithbikes(TM) the Eldar are supposed to be getting :D

They actually look pretty cool, might have to try converting my old bikes to that style (mostly so I don't have to keep repairing the @#$%^&*() riders all the time), especially as I phase in the new ones.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Reminds me of Nuadu Fireheart, a Saim-Hann Vyper Rider. OG.

[Hal]

An unfortunate reality. I never wanted it to happen, but some people HAVE to do something to get GW attention. If we get your attention the Eldar players and then in turn we all complain and create a huge bitter rage fest between our two groups. We'll get GW to intervene. Perhaps sooner than 2 years as an exception to this abomination of a codex. It's going to really have to suck for Eldar players though to get GW attention. Considering the same thing has happened to GK in the past and Tau I'm not seeing why Eldar players new, old, fair, cheesy, or any combination should be any exception to the rules.

Wow, I'm a few pages late to reply to this, but I really have to. I just wanted to say that I'm a peaceful person, don't like conflict and berate violence in any form... But I have a really strong urge to punch you in the face right now for being an ****:)
This might make you stop reading, but I beg you please continue..
My friend introduced me to 40k about 8 years ago when i picked up Eldar because i liked their background, aesthetics and interesting units. I started playing them with the introduction of 5th edition and believe me they were pretty bad back then. They never even got a codex through the 5th edition and were badly outdated. I managed to squeeze a win here and there but was mostly loosing, and you know what? I still had a lot of fun and never complained about anything. That lasted for 6 years until the notorious 6th ed Eldar hit the shelves in 2013. Yes, Eldar got huge buffs all over the place and I was very excited about it. I started winning much more but realized that some of the lists I played really were to strong and my opponents weren't really enjoying the games. When complaints started how serpents were too powerful I dropped them completely (not that I spammed them in the first place but O.K.). To compensate for maneuverability (cause i actually used them as transports) i started using Warp Spiders.. Suddenly they also became unfair - "too fast, uncatchable, OP guns...".
O.K. I drop them too and go for long range firepower and of course War Walkers also became "too cheap for all the firepower they can dish out and their shoot and run back to cover gimmicks."...
And finally there is this one game against the new Space Wolves when I even warned my opponent "Are you sure you're going to move your dreadnaught into assault range of my swooping hawks? They have haywire grenades.." He says "It's ok, he has an inv save..". After the hawks tear the dread apart, they suddenly become OP as well.. And that was just one of many more mistakes he made which caused him to loose.. You know what he told me after the game? "It doesn't matter, I don't feel bad for loosing cause you're playing Eldar and have an overpowered codex...". Most of games I won, felt like undeserved wins because my opponents rarely gave me credit for outsmarting them, punishing their mistakes etc.. It was the codex's fault. (And I truly believe you're one of those players too)
I used to nerf myself into oblivion just to get some recognition for my plays and so both players can have fun and now you're encouraging people to completely decline games with Eldar players... Can you even imagine how that makes me and a lot of other Eldar players feel? Not all of us are playing the game just to win. Some of us play it for fun and you have absolutely no right to take that away from us.
The sad thing is that a lot of people will listen to your advice, cause I've seen similar attitudes on other forums and blogs.

That's really low man.. Really low...

[Lurker]

But the undisguised jealousy of those whose turn it is at the moment?

It is an ugly look on you.

York. Thank you.

Not for your reply to the thread, but for the last two lines. I have been having trouble of late. I'm older and not as able as I once was. Another person has taken on a job that was mine for almost two decades, one that I was very good at. He is as good, if not better in some aspects, as I was and it hurt. I didn't know/understand why I was so angry lately. Now I do. And you're right, it is an ugly look on me. You may not have meant this message to be for me, but nonetheless, you're arrow struck home and I thank you for that.

OK, so now back to silliness-

Two drunks walk into a bar. You'd think the second one would've ducked. :)

[eosgreen]

i cant believe there is rage about a codex that isnt out lol. its really funny and i wish i could meet you irl.

[Zaonite]

How can you complain about a codex that hasn't been released yet?

Ok, so Eldar get a gargantuan creature. Tyranids have been able to field them for years. It's the Eldar equivalent of an Imperial Knight. No one is complaining about the Imperial Knights OP SD combat weapon. As for SD ranged - so what? Big deal.

As with every shift in design people cry and whine that the next new codex will be OP and totally unfair. I have found that people find a way to deal with whatever the game throws at them. It's how we evolve as players.
I for one am looking forward to playing with the new Eldar dex and against it.

Look at the Necron codex for chuff's sake. People cried about that when it was released. It's just run of the mill now.

All you people on here complaining about Eldar won't be complaining when it's YOUR beloved army's turn to be updated. Pot calling kettle? Shoe on the other foot maybe?

[eosgreen]

How can you complain about a codex that hasn't been released yet?

Ok, so Eldar get a gargantuan creature. Tyranids have been able to field them for years. It's the Eldar equivalent of an Imperial Knight. No one is complaining about the Imperial Knights OP SD combat weapon. As for SD ranged - so what? Big deal.

As with every shift in design people cry and whine that the next new codex will be OP and totally unfair. I have found that people find a way to deal with whatever the game throws at them. It's how we evolve as players.
I for one am looking forward to playing with the new Eldar dex and against it.

Look at the Necron codex for chuff's sake. People cried about that when it was released. It's just run of the mill now.

All you people on here complaining about Eldar won't be complaining when it's YOUR beloved army's turn to be updated. Pot calling kettle? Shoe on the other foot maybe?

thats not true always. in sc2 i generally tend to stay away from cheesy skilless races based on patch and as such i switched from terran to zerg to toss back to terran and currently zerg. the PROBLEM is you spend so much time and money on an army that its not always that simple... to play warhammer and a certain army is to...
- be a fotm guy
- just like the race/faction

hard to say everyone complaining is complaining because its not there turn yet

[mocapman]

Wow, I'm a few pages late to reply to this, but I really have to. I just wanted to say that I'm a peaceful person, don't like conflict and berate violence in any form... But I have a really strong urge to punch you in the face right now for being an ****:)
This might make you stop reading, but I beg you please continue..
My friend introduced me to 40k about 8 years ago when i picked up Eldar because i liked their background, aesthetics and interesting units. I started playing them with the introduction of 5th edition and believe me they were pretty bad back then. They never even got a codex through the 5th edition and were badly outdated. I managed to squeeze a win here and there but was mostly loosing, and you know what? I still had a lot of fun and never complained about anything. That lasted for 6 years until the notorious 6th ed Eldar hit the shelves in 2013. Yes, Eldar got huge buffs all over the place and I was very excited about it. I started winning much more but realized that some of the lists I played really were to strong and my opponents weren't really enjoying the games. When complaints started how serpents were too powerful I dropped them completely (not that I spammed them in the first place but O.K.). To compensate for maneuverability (cause i actually used them as transports) i started using Warp Spiders.. Suddenly they also became unfair - "too fast, uncatchable, OP guns...".
O.K. I drop them too and go for long range firepower and of course War Walkers also became "too cheap for all the firepower they can dish out and their shoot and run back to cover gimmicks."...
And finally there is this one game against the new Space Wolves when I even warned my opponent "Are you sure you're going to move your dreadnaught into assault range of my swooping hawks? They have haywire grenades.." He says "It's ok, he has an inv save..". After the hawks tear the dread apart, they suddenly become OP as well.. And that was just one of many more mistakes he made which caused him to loose.. You know what he told me after the game? "It doesn't matter, I don't feel bad for loosing cause you're playing Eldar and have an overpowered codex...". Most of games I won, felt like undeserved wins because my opponents rarely gave me credit for outsmarting them, punishing their mistakes etc.. It was the codex's fault. (And I truly believe you're one of those players too)
I used to nerf myself into oblivion just to get some recognition for my plays and so both players can have fun and now you're encouraging people to completely decline games with Eldar players... Can you even imagine how that makes me and a lot of other Eldar players feel? Not all of us are playing the game just to win. Some of us play it for fun and you have absolutely no right to take that away from us.
The sad thing is that a lot of people will listen to your advice, cause I've seen similar attitudes on other forums and blogs.

That's really low man.. Really low...

I totally agree and have run into alot of the above problems. After being away from the hobby for many years I got back into it in November 2013 and opted to play Eldar. I hadn't researched anything other than look at the models and thought they looked awesome. I walked into the store with my wife and son, picked up a battle box and got started. Pretty soon I learned I had to nerf my lists and have been pulling punches with it ever since. Not great but I have had some great games.

The others in my gaming group know that Eldar can be crazy if you want to take "those" lists but they have been, on the whole, pretty cool and accepting. With the release of the new dex on the horizon they did have a knee-jerk reaction but after some talks have resigned to withhold most judgement till the book comes out. Speculation is fun and we are all passionate about the hobby but the majority of players just want to have fun, not to make the most OP list they can.

[MajorWesJanson]

Ok, so Eldar get a gargantuan creature. Tyranids have been able to field them for years. It's the Eldar equivalent of an Imperial Knight. No one is complaining about the Imperial Knights OP SD combat weapon. As for SD ranged - so what? Big deal.

All you people on here complaining about Eldar won't be complaining when it's YOUR beloved army's turn to be updated. Pot calling kettle? Shoe on the other foot maybe?

Ranged destroyer weapons are a big deal in normal games.

As for updates, look at ork or dark eldar. They lost options and we're generally blandified from previous mediocre books. But eldar go from strong to stronger? Why are eldar so special?

[eldargal]

Because eldar are eldar.:p

[Cutter]

Ranged destroyer weapons are a big deal in normal games.

As for updates, look at ork or dark eldar. They lost options and we're generally blandified from previous mediocre books. But eldar go from strong to stronger? Why are eldar so special?

They'll be dead soon, why not throw them a wraithbone every now and then.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Because eldar are eldar.:p

Our time has come. :p

[Zaonite]

They'll be dead soon, why not throw them a wraithbone every now and then.

Cutter. I might just sig that!

[Mr Mystery]

Ranged destroyer weapons are a big deal in normal games.

As for updates, look at ork or dark eldar. They lost options and we're generally blandified from previous mediocre books. But eldar go from strong to stronger? Why are eldar so special?

12" Ranged D-Weapons (as in those you'll most commonly see, especially given the points of the Wraithknight are yet to be shown - Mystic Mytery predicts.....it's going up a fair chunk)....not so scary.

[Zaonite]

12" Ranged D-Weapons (as in those you'll most commonly see, especially given the points of the Wraithknight are yet to be shown - Mystic Mytery predicts.....it's going up a fair chunk)....not so scary.

Mr Mystery has the right end of the stick. We don't know points costs yet.

I can understand people's initial concerns about ranged D weapons but I'd ask people to wait to see the codex before passing judgement.

[Erik Setzer]

All you people on here complaining about Eldar won't be complaining when it's YOUR beloved army's turn to be updated. Pot calling kettle? Shoe on the other foot maybe?

My army's turn came and went. I'm still complaining. I'd list all my grievances, but this isn't a topic for that. Suffice to say, though, that I find it disheartening to see an army get a book less than a year later that combines all the stuff I had to pay for in two books and has a lot of good options and potent stuff.

But hey, I can have more fun modeling my army and it'll look cooler as it's getting blown away, so there's that...

[Finnegan]

Wow, I'm a few pages late to reply to this, but I really have to. I just wanted to say that I'm a peaceful person, don't like conflict and berate violence in any form... But I have a really strong urge to punch you in the face right now for being an ****:)
This might make you stop reading, but I beg you please continue..
My friend introduced me to 40k about 8 years ago when i picked up Eldar because i liked their background, aesthetics and interesting units. I started playing them with the introduction of 5th edition and believe me they were pretty bad back then. They never even got a codex through the 5th edition and were badly outdated. I managed to squeeze a win here and there but was mostly loosing, and you know what? I still had a lot of fun and never complained about anything. That lasted for 6 years until the notorious 6th ed Eldar hit the shelves in 2013. Yes, Eldar got huge buffs all over the place and I was very excited about it. I started winning much more but realized that some of the lists I played really were to strong and my opponents weren't really enjoying the games. When complaints started how serpents were too powerful I dropped them completely (not that I spammed them in the first place but O.K.). To compensate for maneuverability (cause i actually used them as transports) i started using Warp Spiders.. Suddenly they also became unfair - "too fast, uncatchable, OP guns...".
O.K. I drop them too and go for long range firepower and of course War Walkers also became "too cheap for all the firepower they can dish out and their shoot and run back to cover gimmicks."...
And finally there is this one game against the new Space Wolves when I even warned my opponent "Are you sure you're going to move your dreadnaught into assault range of my swooping hawks? They have haywire grenades.." He says "It's ok, he has an inv save..". After the hawks tear the dread apart, they suddenly become OP as well.. And that was just one of many more mistakes he made which caused him to loose.. You know what he told me after the game? "It doesn't matter, I don't feel bad for loosing cause you're playing Eldar and have an overpowered codex...". Most of games I won, felt like undeserved wins because my opponents rarely gave me credit for outsmarting them, punishing their mistakes etc.. It was the codex's fault. (And I truly believe you're one of those players too)
I used to nerf myself into oblivion just to get some recognition for my plays and so both players can have fun and now you're encouraging people to completely decline games with Eldar players... Can you even imagine how that makes me and a lot of other Eldar players feel? Not all of us are playing the game just to win. Some of us play it for fun and you have absolutely no right to take that away from us.
The sad thing is that a lot of people will listen to your advice, cause I've seen similar attitudes on other forums and blogs.

That's really low man.. Really low...

The story of my life, really :)
Well said, sir.

[mattblowers]

It's always the little things that make or break a codex. An under appreciated boost in the latest codex was the increase in BS state of a lot of the units. That and bladestorm. Everyone outside Eldar believes it to be the WKs and Waveserpents, and they are good, but these other small changes had more to do with the jump than might be readily apparent. If Waveserpents are nerfed (and they should get toned down), and the BS goes back, and we lose laser lock to scatter lasers, it could well turn out that the army is fragile with little enough staying power and low enough damage output that it's hard to get the job done. If there is broadly applied D-weapons, we could be looking at some Wraith mono-builds with little else from the codex being strong enough to compete. Point is, we don't know. I'm bummed for a new codex so soon, but I will remain calm until I actually get some games in before joining the vitriolic hyperbole.

[Path Walker]

Aiming for 1500 points, you're not going to have the points to abuse the new D Weapons (if thats even what they are) Scatter Lasers on Jetbikes is nice but its also pricey for what you get and easily dealt with, all the 7th ed codexs have been fun and encouraged fluffy play, working better when used as the army would fight, this is a great time for the hobby and its hilarious to see the complainers clutching at any straw they can get.

[daboarder]

Aiming for 1500 points, you're not going to have the points to abuse the new D Weapons (if thats even what they are) Scatter Lasers on Jetbikes is nice but its also pricey for what you get and easily dealt with, all the 7th ed codexs have been fun and encouraged fluffy play, working better when used as the army would fight, this is a great time for the hobby and its hilarious to see the complainers clutching at any straw they can get.

you're delusional if you think 270 pts is expensive for that

[Erik Setzer]

you're delusional if you think 270 pts is expensive for that

Well, his other comments show that he's delusional. But yeah, 270 points for 40 shots at S6? Heck yeah I'd be all over that. Especially with a 12" move, and the Jetbike Assault Phase move. You can jump out of cover, blast someone, dodge back into cover. If someone gets a shot in, you have decent Toughness and reasonable save.

[daboarder]

Well, his other comments show that he's delusional. But yeah, 270 points for 40 shots at S6? Heck yeah I'd be all over that. Especially with a 12" move, and the Jetbike Assault Phase move. You can jump out of cover, blast someone, dodge back into cover. If someone gets a shot in, you have decent Toughness and reasonable save.

Jink too if you need it

and you're shooting 36 so you a lot of things cant even get close to you.

basically they are as or more survivable as a waveserpent and shoot way more.

I say as/more because even though they are only T3 they also have a 3+ save and jink, furthermore they do not significantly lose effectiveness as they take casualties (even at 3 models they put out 12 shots a turn) And people thought Dakka Flyrants we're bad.

Seriously, compare that 40 shots to a Flying Hive tyrant (which is a good model) thats just nuts

[ShadowcatX]

They are under costed, there's no doubt about that. But there are lots of things that are under costed in the game. They're not the end of the world. Remember, these jetbikes hit harder than jetbikes did in the last codex, but they're not any more unkillable, and they're not insignificantly more expensive. Or were you utterly unable to kill jetbikes during the old codex as well?

They'll get played, and they'll be good, but I doubt they'll be the 40 - 60 of that people are claiming they are and people are so afraid of. Like everything else, after you hit a certain mass of them, they'll suffer from diminishing returns, especially in groups of 10, where the standard SMU strategy will cause wasted shots.

[daboarder]

They are under costed, there's no doubt about that. But there are lots of things that are under costed in the game. They're not the end of the world. Remember, these jetbikes hit harder than jetbikes did in the last codex, but they're not any more unkillable, and they're not insignificantly more expensive. Or were you utterly unable to kill jetbikes during the old codex as well?

They'll get played, and they'll be good, but I doubt they'll be the 40 - 60 of that people are claiming they are and people are so afraid of. Like everything else, after you hit a certain mass of them, they'll suffer from diminishing returns, especially in groups of 10, where the standard SMU strategy will cause wasted shots.

Shadow, consider this.

Imagine that jetbikes had a 20 guardian tax at 28 pts per guardian (Equally stupid I know).

That would be a 560 pt tax on your jetbikes. Even in a 1500 pt game you could, if inclined, put out 120 S6 shots a turn.....120 with a tax as stupid as 28 pt guardians.....thats a bit beyond under priced mate.

Edit: Now your right, they'll suffer from diminishing returns.

But that 40, thats a single 10 man squad, split that in 3 (for your FA slots) and yout still putting out 40 S6 shots a turn, you're just doing it even more efficiently

What I suspect we'll actually see is squads of say 5 jetbikes, puting out 20 shots each a turn, giving the army as a whole 60 S6 shots for only 405 pts. Plenty of room for D-weapons, Seer support (or stars if they are still a thing) etc.

[Mr Mystery]

They are under costed, there's no doubt about that. But there are lots of things that are under costed in the game. They're not the end of the world. Remember, these jetbikes hit harder than jetbikes did in the last codex, but they're not any more unkillable, and they're not insignificantly more expensive. Or were you utterly unable to kill jetbikes during the old codex as well?

They'll get played, and they'll be good, but I doubt they'll be the 40 - 60 of that people are claiming they are and people are so afraid of. Like everything else, after you hit a certain mass of them, they'll suffer from diminishing returns, especially in groups of 10, where the standard SMU strategy will cause wasted shots.

Yarp. They're undeniably good, but still just single wound, T4 3+ models. Most armies can eat those for breakfast!

[daboarder]

Yarp. They're undeniably good, but still just single wound, T4 3+ models. Most armies can eat those for breakfast!
Mystery, It seriously amazes me the hoops you will jump through.

Jetbikes are not easy to kill as you seem to think they are. That is part of the reason why small scoring squads of them have been one of the favourite Eldar tricks for the last 3-4 editions.

[ShadowcatX]

I'm not claiming people won't field 10, maybe even 15 of them. But I've seen people claiming that lists will have a full 40 - 60 jetbikes (not 40 - 60 shots), and I just can't buy it.

And your scenario, yeah sure, that's great, so long as S6 with no AP is exactly what you need. If you run into something like a riptide, well you know what your 120 shots are doing to it? 2/3rd hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6th get past the armor save, 2/3rd get past FNP (my opponent runs his with FNP, I don't know how many other people do). That's 4.44444 wounds for 810 points. Not exactly a steal.

Again, good, under costed, but not game breaking.

ETA:

Or if you come across the triple flyrant list: 3.3333 wounds to a flyrant, if the flyrant doesn't have FNP. 2.2222 if it does.

[Erik Setzer]

I say as/more because even though they are only T3 they also have a 3+ save and jink

T4, actually. And yeah, 3+ save... I thought it was reduced to 4+, but nope, still 3+. Can't shred them with heavy bolters, you have to go to hardy stuff to knock off their save. And they'll likely be in cover most of the time. Give them a Warlock with Conceal for more fun.

Jink knocks their BS down to 1, so they're not going to hit as much at that point. Better to avoid jinking if possible. Just use intervening terrain and Conceal.

[daboarder]

T4, actually. And yeah, 3+ save... I thought it was reduced to 4+, but nope, still 3+. Can't shred them with heavy bolters, you have to go to hardy stuff to knock off their save. And they'll likely be in cover most of the time. Give them a Warlock with Conceal for more fun.

Jink knocks their BS down to 1, so they're not going to hit as much at that point. Better to avoid jinking if possible. Just use intervening terrain and Conceal.

sorry, I meant T4, its 12 at night over here

[Defenestratus]

Jink too if you need it

and you're shooting 36 so you a lot of things cant even get close to you.

basically they are as or more survivable as a waveserpent and shoot way more.

I say as/more because even though they are only T3 they also have a 3+ save and jink, furthermore they do not significantly lose effectiveness as they take casualties (even at 3 models they put out 12 shots a turn) And people thought Dakka Flyrants we're bad.

Seriously, compare that 40 shots to a Flying Hive tyrant (which is a good model) thats just nuts

10 jetbikes are going to be a huge HUGE footprint on the board. There wont be a piece of terrain that you could legitimately hide them behind to keep them covered. One Wyverrn barrage and most of them are dead as dead. A decent drop podding bolter barrage by tactical marines will kill as many as space marines, your flyrant, tau seeker missiles.... you get the point - there are solutions to this problem.

[Path Walker]

They jink and that shooting suddenly becomes a lot less effective. They're fragile, if you don't jink them, weight of fire will take them down 3+ is all well and good but throw enough dice and they'll be gone.

[Erik Setzer]

Yarp. They're undeniably good, but still just single wound, T4 3+ models. Most armies can eat those for breakfast!

Eh... Not so sure on that. My Daemonkin army might have a good bit of AP3, for example, but a lot of it's melee, which has to chase down models that can move 12+2D6" a turn and are shooting back (which would mow down Bloodletters). The best bet comes in lobbing pie plates from the walkers (the army I've been running has two Defilers and a Soul Grinder, three S8 AP3 big blasts), and trying to figure out how to maneuver around to trap them.

Of course, that's all in a vacuum... and not how the game will go. Pair the jetbikes with a couple of Wraithknights. The Wraithknights will take out the nastier, bigger stuff, and distract a lot of heavy firepower (which would be most of the AP3 stuff), leaving the jetbikes to fire upon weaker targets and dealing more with stuff like bolters, shootas, etc. Weight of numbers might hurt them in time, but they can even the odds with their own firepower. Meanwhile, the whole army's moving around faster than most other armies can fathom (except a Marine bike force, maybe).

[Path Walker]

I'm just going to plonk my Plasma Obliterator in the middle of the board and take them both out.

[Lexington]

Though the business end of the Plasma Obliterator may look like it's designed for that sort of fun, Games Workshop does not recommend plonking it, in the middle of the board or elsewhere.

As to Eldar Jetbikes - well, there's one more thing that makes the Ork Codex obsolete. Not even a year after it's release, too! Oh, GW, you wizards of game design, you.

[Path Walker]

I dunno, stray too close to a Shoota mob and you have 10 saves to make, each failure removing one of those pricey little scatter lasers.

[Erik Setzer]

As to Eldar Jetbikes - well, there's one more thing that makes the Ork Codex obsolete. Not even a year after it's release, too! Oh, GW, you wizards of game design, you.

Yeah, I'm not looking forward to waiting another three editions of 40K for another codex...

[Haighus]

I'm just going to plonk my Plasma Obliterator in the middle of the board and take them both out.

The problem with buildings is they are very weak to Destroyer weapons. Not as weak in the current incarnation of the rules though. The Obliterator will really struggle with surviving any Wraithknights in the force, as 2 hits from a Destroyer weapon will probably destroy it. With a Skitarii Warlord on board from the detachment with Preferred Enemy, and an Omnispex, it will be pretty effective at knocking out the Jetbikes though.

[DrLove42]

One model of interest not seen mentioned much. Ilic Nightspear ...the eldar sniper character. Not seen him in decurion detachment, nor has anyone mentioned he now has a strength d sniper rifle....

[Defenestratus]

One model of interest not seen mentioned much. Ilic Nightspear ...the eldar sniper character. Not seen him in decurion detachment, nor has anyone mentioned he now has a strength d sniper rifle....

He's in the living legends section.

Not only that, but if his rifle keeps the distort rule... he could be wielding a str D sniper rifle :P

[Lexington]

I dunno, stray too close to a Shoota mob and you have 10 saves to make, each failure removing one of those pricey little scatter lasers.
I'd feel pretty bad playing against an Eldar player who managed to "stray" their jetbikes near a 30-lad Shoota mob, mainly because I don't think cats enjoy playing 40K very much. :p

[ShadowcatX]

One model of interest not seen mentioned much. Ilic Nightspear ...the eldar sniper character. Not seen him in decurion detachment, nor has anyone mentioned he now has a strength d sniper rifle....

Not a whole lot of talk about anything that hasn't been spoiled yet. Still, if his sniper rifle does remain strength D, it'll probably be the first sniper rifle that I actually like.

[Stone Edwards]

Heads up! In the Warseer Eldar rumor thread someone claims to have the codex. First two posts so far:

"All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death."
"Banshees add +3" when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.

There are no "chapter tactics"."

[Mr Mystery]

If true....cool

If.

[Erik Setzer]

The problem with buildings is they are very weak to Destroyer weapons. Not as weak in the current incarnation of the rules though. The Obliterator will really struggle with surviving any Wraithknights in the force, as 2 hits from a Destroyer weapon will probably destroy it. With a Skitarii Warlord on board from the detachment with Preferred Enemy, and an Omnispex, it will be pretty effective at knocking out the Jetbikes though.

Wait, he's not recommended a Plasma Obliterator to take on Wraithknights, is he? Aren't they T8? It's S7. Has to wound on a 5+. That's not exactly going to scare anyone.

[Learn2Eel]

Though you guys already saw the massive one that all Distortion weapons are Destroyer weapons (including D-Scythes), I'll keep this post here updated with everything stated about the codex.

@Mr Mystery

luchiban, the codex-leaker, has done this before if I remember correctly. This is very trustworthy, but obviously some doubt is always good.

Anyway, everything that has been said so far, all credit to luchaban of Warseer;


Ok. Let's go.
All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death.

Step by step.
Banshees add +3" when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.
There are no "chapter tactics".

Yes they have:
Primaris: Guide (no changes)
1: Executioner: Focussed witch fire. 24". Target receives 3 hits, always wounds on 2+. If target diez, another model receives 2 hits. If target dies another gone receives 1 hit.
2: Fatality: You re-roll to wound or to penetrate when firing at target unit. 24"
3: Will of Asuryan: 12" bubble of Fear and Adamantium will
4: Fortune: As always
5: Mind fight: Mainly the same.
6: Ancestral Storm: Warp charges 3 (5" blast), Warp charge 4 (Apoc blast), 24", Haywire, wounds 2+
Names may be different in the English version. (I own the Spanish one).

Wraithknight is LoW (295 points), Jump gargantuan creature
Wraithguard/blades are not tropos anymore if taking a Spiritseer (Only Elites)
Crimson hunter basically the same, but 140 points only.

No changes on Battle focus of the bladestorm rule. No hints on the Iyanden codex

(Wraithknight) Sword + Shield: Free (Sword is Strenght D)
Solar cannon + Shield: Free
(The Wraithknight's Heavy Wraithcannons) Is the equipment by default.

(Jetbikes) 17/model, every model can purchase one scatter laser or shuriken cannon for +10 points

(Wraithknight Suncannon) Sun (Sorry for the "solar") remains the same.

(Wave) Serpents are 110 points, and shield is now: S6, Assault 2D6, Ignores cover, One use only.

Shining spears have 4+ cover save if they moved the previous turn. 25/model. Lance is: 6", F6, Assault 1, Lance. In combat: +3F when charging. Both are AP3.

Wraithblades: Same but 30/model and have Rage.

Hemlock: Same cost, has Lvl 2, can choose Daemonology (Sacred), Telepathy and Battle Runes. D-Scythes are a special D weapon as mentioned above,.

Scorpions: 17/model, Infiltration, Stealth, and Shrouded until they fire or fight in combat
Warp Spiders: 19/model Monofilament rule has changed.They roll to wound against I, although the T is still used to calculate ID.
Hawks: 16/model, they move 18", and when moving over a Flyer the can do a special attack. Hits on 4+, S4, AP4 Haywire

(Wraithguard) Cost is the same.
(Regards to Autarchs and Swooping Hawk "no scatter") Basically the same.
(Squadrons of Falcons/Fire Prisms/Night Spinners) YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Up to three!!!!!!!! And they have special rules if done so:
Falcon: if Deep Strike, first Falcon does not scatter. Others are place at 4".
Fire Prism: For each additional Fire Prism firing +1S / -1AP
Night Spinners: +1S for each Night spinner
(Serpent Shield) Nop, only 24" (range)
(Eldar Warhost Detachment) The main bonus of the Warhost is that they always run 6".
(Serpent Shield Defence) When working as a shield, it works as before.
Falcon can DS only if taken in a unit of 3.

Guardians: Same
Dire avengers: They overwatch with BS2
Avatar is LoW, but mainly the same
I cannot see any psyker being able to get malefic daemonology

Formation rules:
Guardian battlehost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Guardians can purchase a Platform for free.
Windrider host: Once per game all formation gets Shred when firing shuriken weapons
Guardian Stormhost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Storm guardians can purchase 2 special weapons for free.
Seer council: They harness Warp charges with 3+.
Aspect Host: They re-roll LD tests and get +1 to WS or BS.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Once per game, Shuriken weapons are Assault 3. +1 to BS
Crimson Death: Preferred enemy (Flying things), 4+ cover save, and if Jink, may re-roll the cover save.
Wraithhost: Get battle trance, if targe is at 18" or less from spiritser, reroll to hit

(Warp Spider guns) Why is that? You still have S6. Target needs to have I6 to wound him on 4+.
(Dire Avengers Troops) Yes, they are.

Ok, Wraithknight only went up 55 points and is now Gargantuan with potential ranged or melee Destroyer weapons? WTF GW!?

A cheaper Crimson Hunter is epic, I just bought one yesterday simply because I thought it would be a cool addition!
The Wave Serpent nerf was expected and welcome, but a 5 point price reduction is decent. No word on whether the Serpent Shield still has any defensive properties (we can assume as much).
Nice buff to Shining Spears, but particularly to Wraithblades as well; their lack of attacks (especially with axe and shield) was what made them so mediocre.
The Hemlock is a flyer with two ranged Destroyer weapons! Hooray! That it can choose its powers from three disciplines is really cool.

Woah, those Aspect Warrior changes are huge! Swooping Hawks move 18" and can attack flyers! WOW!
Wait, Wraithguard gained Destroyer weapons with no change in cost other than not being allowed as Troops? Seriously!?!?!?!?!? WHAT!?!?!? Ok...

Wow, squadrons of the three battle tanks look awesome!
I fixed up the entry on Striking Scorpions; they have Stealth and Shrouded UNTIL they either fire or fight in combat for the first time.
The Warhost Detachment buff is exactly what I predicted, but deceptively good. Always Running 6" is pretty darned good even on a mostly Fleet army, though obviously it is nowhere near as good as the Necron Decurion buff.
Wave Serpents appear to be good but not over-powered now, which - like all but Jetbikes and Wraiths - indicates a lot of good changes.

Dire Avengers are even more defensive than before, BS2 Overwatch is great with Bladestorm shooting!
The Avatar being a LoW with no apparent buffs sucks.
The formation buffs are really cool, can anyone say "hi" to Weapon Skill 5 and/or Ballistic Skill 5 Aspect Warriors that re-roll failed Leadership tests?

Ok, I take back what I said with Warp Spiders. They are Strength 6 rolling to wound against Initiative. Yikes, that is insane!

[Stone Edwards]

Though you guys already saw the massive one that all Distortion weapons are Destroyer weapons (including D-Scythes), I'll keep this post here updated with everything stated about the codex.

@Mr Mystery

luchiban, the codex-leaker, has done this before if I remember correctly. This is very trustworthy, but obviously some doubt is always good.

Anyway, everything that has been said so far, all credit to luchaban of Warseer;

Sure steal my thunder...what ever I didn't want to post that stuff anyways!!!!!!! :p

[Defenestratus]

Heads up! In the Warseer Eldar rumor thread someone claims to have the codex. First two posts so far:

"All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death."
"Banshees add +3" when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.

There are no "chapter tactics"."

Thats essentially the old Wraithcannon table. "Wound on a 3+"

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I hope they will be able to put the preorders up this evening without destroying their own site again. Only about half an hour (or a bit longer) left.

[Erik Setzer]

I'd feel pretty bad playing against an Eldar player who managed to "stray" their jetbikes near a 30-lad Shoota mob, mainly because I don't think cats enjoy playing 40K very much. :p

Joke aside (argh)... You'd have to be insanely bad to get that many Jetbikes within range of a full 30-boy Shoota mob. By the time the mob's marched into a position to trap the Jetbikes (if that's even possible), it'll have been whittled down. And if we're playing the law of averages, let's see... 40 shots, 2/3 hit, so 26.68 (round up to 27), 5/6 of which wound, so 22.23 (using the non-rounded number), which even rounded down is 22. Assuming the Orks have a save with their armor (don't recall if scatter lasers have AP at the moment), that's 3.705 Orks saving. So let's round everything to 18 Orks dead. In one round of shooting. Leaving 12 to fire back. Oh, and that's 126 points already gone from the unit, more if any of them had a big shoota or rokkit launcha.

Second round of shooting will mop up the unit, well before it gets in range.

[Defenestratus]

Praise khaine no more death mission!

[Learn2Eel]

The Wraithknight is a 295 point Gargantuan Creature that comes stock with two ranged Destroyer weapons.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg

[40kGamer]

The Wraithknight is a 295 point Gargantuan Creature that comes stock with two ranged Destroyer weapons.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg

Sounds like it really got nerfed. Let me go get my sign....

[Lexington]

I can definitely see the logical path one could take to make a Wraithknight cost less than half of what a Stompa does.

That path involves several heavy blows to the forebrain from a cinderblock, but I can see it.

[Learn2Eel]

The Wraithknight is BETTER than an Imperial Knight, yet it is 75-80 points cheaper depending on the variant (assuming Errant or Paladin). Make of that what you will.

[Erik Setzer]

I can definitely see the logical path one could take to make a Wraithknight cost less than half of what a Stompa does.

That path involves several heavy blows to the forebrain from a cinderblock, but I can see it.


Tom Kirby hates green people.

[ShadowcatX]

/sigh. I was expecting 350 - 400. I'd have been happy with that. I'd have played it at that.

Maybe marines will be equally OP when it comes out and we can have marines vs (good guy) space elves.

[Defenestratus]

Everyone has stopped caring about the Wave serpent apparently.

[Learn2Eel]

Everyone has stopped caring about the Wave serpent apparently.

The removal of Laser Lock and the change to the Serpent Shield being one-use-only fixed them. They aren't ridiculous anymore, but still good as both a battle tank and dedicated transport.

Before anyone says this is a fake leak, check the Warseer page. The guy posted pictures of his codex in hand. All of this information I am posting from Warseer is spot on.

[Grenndal]

so how do these stack up against a revenant titan? who needs a titan anymore when 2 of these will do a better job. I thought I hated them before. Never fails the rich get richer while the poor get poorer. but hey orks and nids are fun :rolleyes: SMH

[Learn2Eel]

so how do these stack up against a revenant titan? who needs a titan anymore when 2 of these will do a better job. I thought I hated them before. Never fails the rich get richer while the poor get poorer. but hey orks and nids are fun :rolleyes: SMH

Don't you mean 3 of them? 3 Wraithknights each with 2 ranged Destroyer weapons is now 885 points. Again, good work GW.

Other than Jetbikes and all the Destroyer weapon stuff though....honestly I really like the changes. Taking squadrons of Falcons/Fire Prisms/Night Spinners gives them buffs, mostly buffs to Aspect Warriors that are thematic and necessary to make them competitive, etc. Howling Banshees actually have assault grenades in a sense, while Swooping Hawks are ridiculously fast and can basically assault flyers which is amazing. Warp Spiders got hit hard though, the change to Monofilament makes them worse against everything except Initiative 2 armies.

- - - Updated - - -

A really nice tactical consideration with Falcon squadrons; load them up with Fire Dragons or some other nasty short-ranged unit. Deep Strike them as per their squadron (not formation!) rules. They don't scatter and can unload their melta-toting infantry....like Drop Pods. WOW!

Also of note, guys, pre-orders for Eldar are up! Just go the Warhammer 40,000 section and check the Pre-Orders sub-section, they are in there.

[Kirsten]

nope, old autarch, not new skyrunner kit, just called a skyrunner.

[Learn2Eel]

Oh my bad, oh well I guess that's still ok. I've added more stuff to the post.

[Kirsten]

not sure why anybody would spend £20 on the old jetbike model when they could just buy a new much nicer bike and convert it, but there we are.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Yeah, keeping the old ones for the autarch and shining spears is a strange move....

[wayne williams]

i was thinking of converting the harlequin jetbike for shining spear to represent a heavier cavalry type unit.

[Defenestratus]

Three wtaithknights still don't lay down four strength D pie plates per turn nor move and assault 36". In apoc pinpoint strength D isn't all that wonderful.

[Eldur]

I don't think that giving strength D to distort weapons is making Eldar too powerful.

In the first place: we don't know the points costs for the units/weapons.

In the second place: main differences between old Distort and new distort (as suposed, S:D, AP2)...

13711

(kills/hit means starting from a direct hit and dividing each inflicted wound/HP by the total W/HP value from the model. Monsters are given 3W, vehicles 3HP for the example)

Sorry if I made some mistakes, but IMHO it's correct enough. I took into account ID, 1D3 wounds/HP and other bonus for D-rules (and/or exploding results in the case of the Knight). The knight benefits from the 4++ save in all the results shown.


This means that the armies competitively in danger by the rule changes are the ones comprised by elite forces and well-armored vehicles. On the other side, Invisibility is still valuable (or even more).

[Learn2Eel]

Three wtaithknights still don't lay down four strength D pie plates per turn nor move and assault 36". In apoc pinpoint strength D isn't all that wonderful.

They are much, much harder to kill though which will count for something in most games! But yeah, I see your point. Don't forget Wraithknights are also scarier in combat than Revenants, especially 3-to-1.

[Aldavaer]

The change to the monofilament weapon rule will really hit Warp spiders hard in certain circumstances as I is often higher than T for many units, unless you are Tau where Firewarriors are T-1 for I, crisis suits are T-2 and riptides will really hurt at T-4.

So the moral of the story is Warp spiders are the new hard counter to Riptides.

[Erik Setzer]

On the other side, Invisibility is still valuable (or even more).

Fun fact: Invisibility doesn't do squat for being Stomped by a super-heavy walker or GC. You might not be able to shoot or assault them accurately, but just get in combat, and you can squish them nicely.

[Aldavaer]

Apologies for double posting

Iuchiban posted formation bonuses;

Guardian battlehost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Guardians can purchase a Platform for free.

Windrider host: Once per game all formation gets Shred when firing shuriken weapons

Guardian Stormhost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Storm guardians can purchase 2 special weapons for free.

Seer council: They harness Warp charges with 3+.

Aspect Host: They re-roll LD tests and get +1 to WS or BS.

Dire Avenger Shrine: Once per game, Shuriken weapons are Assault 3. +1 to BS

Crimson Death: Preferred enemy (Flying things), 4+ cover save, and if Jink, may re-roll the cover save.

Wraithhost: Get battle trance, if targe is at 18" or less from spiritser, reroll to hit

[Erik Setzer]

The change to the monofilament weapon rule will really hit Warp spiders hard in certain circumstances as I is often higher than T for many units, unless you are Tau where Firewarriors are T-1 for I, crisis suits are T-2 and riptides will really hurt at T-4.

So the moral of the story is Warp spiders are the new hard counter to Riptides.

And Orks just cry if they see Warp Spiders.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm still updating the post, I'll go to bed once luchiban stops (it is nearly 5am here...)

[Erik Setzer]

Apologies for double posting

Iuchiban posted formation bonuses;

BRB; buying more Malifaux, Warmachine, and Star Wars figures; also checking for local Infinity and seeing how much Bolt Action will be to get into...

[Eldur]

Apologies for double posting

Iuchiban posted formation bonuses;

Guardian battlehost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Guardians can purchase a Platform for free.

Windrider host: Once per game all formation gets Shred when firing shuriken weapons

Guardian Stormhost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Storm guardians can purchase 2 special weapons for free.

Seer council: They harness Warp charges with 3+.

Aspect Host: They re-roll LD tests and get +1 to WS or BS.

Dire Avenger Shrine: Once per game, Shuriken weapons are Assault 3. +1 to BS

Crimson Death: Preferred enemy (Flying things), 4+ cover save, and if Jink, may re-roll the cover save.

Wraithhost: Get battle trance, if targe is at 18" or less from spiritser, reroll to hit

WOOOOOOOOT

As a player I must say: CHEEEEEESE!

As an Eldar player I must say: OMFG its great! And fluffy!!!... well maybe too much cheese

[Learn2Eel]

For those reading this thread and wondering what we are talking about, here is my summary post of the CONFIRMED - pictures have been leaked - changes from Warseer's luchiban;

Though you guys already saw the massive one that all Distortion weapons are Destroyer weapons (including D-Scythes), I'll keep this post here updated with everything stated about the codex.

@Mr Mystery

luchiban, the codex-leaker, has done this before if I remember correctly. This is very trustworthy, but obviously some doubt is always good.

Anyway, everything that has been said so far, all credit to luchaban of Warseer;


Ok. Let's go.
All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death.

Step by step.
Banshees add +3" when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.
There are no "chapter tactics".

Yes they have:
Primaris: Guide (no changes)
1: Executioner: Focussed witch fire. 24". Target receives 3 hits, always wounds on 2+. If target diez, another model receives 2 hits. If target dies another gone receives 1 hit.
2: Fatality: You re-roll to wound or to penetrate when firing at target unit. 24"
3: Will of Asuryan: 12" bubble of Fear and Adamantium will
4: Fortune: As always
5: Mind fight: Mainly the same.
6: Ancestral Storm: Warp charges 3 (5" blast), Warp charge 4 (Apoc blast), 24", Haywire, wounds 2+
Names may be different in the English version. (I own the Spanish one).

Wraithknight is LoW (295 points), Jump gargantuan creature
Wraithguard/blades are not tropos anymore if taking a Spiritseer (Only Elites)
Crimson hunter basically the same, but 140 points only.

No changes on Battle focus of the bladestorm rule. No hints on the Iyanden codex

(Wraithknight) Sword + Shield: Free (Sword is Strenght D)
Solar cannon + Shield: Free
(The Wraithknight's Heavy Wraithcannons) Is the equipment by default.

(Jetbikes) 17/model, every model can purchase one scatter laser or shuriken cannon for +10 points

(Wraithknight Suncannon) Sun (Sorry for the "solar") remains the same.

(Wave) Serpents are 110 points, and shield is now: S6, Assault 2D6, Ignores cover, One use only.

Shining spears have 4+ cover save if they moved the previous turn. 25/model. Lance is: 6", F6, Assault 1, Lance. In combat: +3F when charging. Both are AP3.

Wraithblades: Same but 30/model and have Rage.

Hemlock: Same cost, has Lvl 2, can choose Daemonology (Sacred), Telepathy and Battle Runes. D-Scythes are a special D weapon as mentioned above,.

Scorpions: 17/model, Infiltration, Stealth, and Shrouded until they fire or fight in combat
Warp Spiders: 19/model Monofilament rule has changed.They roll to wound against I, although the T is still used to calculate ID.
Hawks: 16/model, they move 18", and when moving over a Flyer the can do a special attack. Hits on 4+, S4, AP4 Haywire

(Wraithguard) Cost is the same.
(Regards to Autarchs and Swooping Hawk "no scatter") Basically the same.
(Squadrons of Falcons/Fire Prisms/Night Spinners) YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Up to three!!!!!!!! And they have special rules if done so:
Falcon: if Deep Strike, first Falcon does not scatter. Others are place at 4".
Fire Prism: For each additional Fire Prism firing +1S / -1AP
Night Spinners: +1S for each Night spinner
(Serpent Shield) Nop, only 24" (range)
(Eldar Warhost Detachment) The main bonus of the Warhost is that they always run 6".
(Serpent Shield Defence) When working as a shield, it works as before.
Falcon can DS only if taken in a unit of 3.

Guardians: Same
Dire avengers: They overwatch with BS2
Avatar is LoW, but mainly the same
I cannot see any psyker being able to get malefic daemonology

Formation rules:
Guardian battlehost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Guardians can purchase a Platform for free.
Windrider host: Once per game all formation gets Shred when firing shuriken weapons
Guardian Stormhost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Storm guardians can purchase 2 special weapons for free.
Seer council: They harness Warp charges with 3+.
Aspect Host: They re-roll LD tests and get +1 to WS or BS.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Once per game, Shuriken weapons are Assault 3. +1 to BS
Crimson Death: Preferred enemy (Flying things), 4+ cover save, and if Jink, may re-roll the cover save.
Wraithhost: Get battle trance, if targe is at 18" or less from spiritser, reroll to hit

(Warp Spider guns) Why is that? You still have S6. Target needs to have I6 to wound him on 4+.
(Dire Avengers Troops) Yes, they are.

Before leaving I will post the list of special ítems:
- A pistol S4, AP3, Rending
- A sword +2S, AP- Rending and if fighting in a challenge, wounds on 2+ and Instant Death
- One sniper rifle, AP2, 120"
- One ítem that if bearer does not cast any phychic power, or shots during the shooting phase, he can run 48" and may reroll cover saves.
- One sword +1S, AP3, Soulblaze (affects wounded unit and all enemy units at 6")
- One ítem that when bearer diez, 5" template is placed and all models suffer one S4, AP5 hit. If at least, one wound is infflicted, bearer comes back to life, with 1W. One use only
- One ítem that makes psyhic powers required 1 WC less. No inv saves if done so.

IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!!!
One thing I forgot before is that Exarchs have now 2 Wounds.

Warp Spiders:
They can move as before 6+2D6" and if double "1" loose a model, but they can choose to jump (2D6") in the opponent's shooting phase after the Warp Spiders are chosen as a target. If Warp Spiders are out of range or out of LoS after this movement, firing unit cannot choose another target. If they jump in the opponent's shooting phase, they cannot jump on their next turn.

Dark Reapers:
25 points per model. They re-roll to hit against anything that flies, turboboosts or moved flat out. All models ignore Jink saves.

(Avatar of Khaine) Well, his sword is +2S in CC

Ok, Wraithknight only went up 55 points and is now Gargantuan with potential ranged or melee Destroyer weapons? WTF GW!?

A cheaper Crimson Hunter is epic, I just bought one yesterday simply because I thought it would be a cool addition!
The Wave Serpent nerf was expected and welcome, but a 5 point price reduction is decent. No word on whether the Serpent Shield still has any defensive properties (we can assume as much).
Nice buff to Shining Spears, but particularly to Wraithblades as well; their lack of attacks (especially with axe and shield) was what made them so mediocre.
The Hemlock is a flyer with two ranged Destroyer weapons! Hooray! That it can choose its powers from three disciplines is really cool.

Woah, those Aspect Warrior changes are huge! Swooping Hawks move 18" and can attack flyers! WOW!
Wait, Wraithguard gained Destroyer weapons with no change in cost other than not being allowed as Troops? Seriously!?!?!?!?!? WHAT!?!?!? Ok...

Wow, squadrons of the three battle tanks look awesome!
I fixed up the entry on Striking Scorpions; they have Stealth and Shrouded UNTIL they either fire or fight in combat for the first time.
The Warhost Detachment buff is exactly what I predicted, but deceptively good. Always Running 6" is pretty darned good even on a mostly Fleet army, though obviously it is nowhere near as good as the Necron Decurion buff.
Wave Serpents appear to be good but not over-powered now, which - like all but Jetbikes and Wraiths - indicates a lot of good changes.

Dire Avengers are even more defensive than before, BS2 Overwatch is great with Bladestorm shooting!
The Avatar being a LoW with no apparent buffs sucks.
The formation buffs are really cool, can anyone say "hi" to Weapon Skill 5 and/or Ballistic Skill 5 Aspect Warriors that re-roll failed Leadership tests?

Ok, I take back what I said with Warp Spiders. They are Strength 6 rolling to wound against Initiative. Yikes, that is insane!
Most of the Relics have carried over from 6th Edition, with minor tweaks here and there.

luchiban is done for the time being (he will probably post more by the time I wake up) meaning I am too. Good night/good morning! One note, my last questions to him were with regards to Phoenix Lords, Dark Reapers, Wraithlords and Illic Nightspear....though judging by that sniper rifle relic I doubt Illic's Voidbringer is still a Distort=Destroyer weapon.

[Mr Mystery]

All sounds good to me!

They're still predominantly T3 and quite weedy when being shot. Wraithknights? You wanna spend all that dough? Go for it. I'll still play you.

[Aldavaer]

The formation bonuses look fairly fluffy, the really powerful ones are once per game (Dire Avengers and Windrider host). The windrider host one will make the decision between scatter laser and shuriken cannon more difficult.

If illic nightspears sniper rifle is unchanged and keeps the distort rule, he will be worth the points.

There doesn't appear to be a bonus for the outcast formation, maybe it got overlooked by iuchiban when he posted.

[Erik Setzer]

Always Running 6" is pretty darned good even on a mostly Fleet army, though obviously it is nowhere near as good as the Necron Decurion buff.

The key thing to remember is the Battle Focus rule. This means Eldar in this "detachment" can move 6", fire, then move 6" again. Or move 6", then move 6" again, then fire. So they'll be able to close for range quickly, or be able to stand behind cover, move out to shoot, and run back into cover.

[Grenndal]

I don't have my book, can you bring more than one lord of war to a game? I thought it was a one and done kind of thing.

[Stone Edwards]

They are much, much harder to kill though which will count for something in most games! But yeah, I see your point. Don't forget Wraithknights are also scarier in combat than Revenants, especially 3-to-1.

Don't forget the Titans have that crazy holo-field too, on a 1-3 they simply negate the hit before any other saves are taken.

[Erik Setzer]

I don't have my book, can you bring more than one lord of war to a game? I thought it was a one and done kind of thing.

In a CAD or many detachments, only one LOW.

HOWEVER... The Blood Host Detachment in the Khorne Daemonkin codex, and the Eldar [Whatever] Detachment, both let you take multiple LOW as part of one "detachment." So you can do it in a Battle-Forged army now, if you have the right army.

[Mr Mystery]

The key thing to remember is the Battle Focus rule. This means Eldar in this "detachment" can move 6", fire, then move 6" again. Or move 6", then move 6" again, then fire. So they'll be able to close for range quickly, or be able to stand behind cover, move out to shoot, and run back into cover.

Yarp. Sounds pokey, but again, the 12" range of Shuriken Catapults helps rein this in a bit, as they'll need every bit of that movement to keep safe!

If I played Eldar, I think I'd take a predominantly infantry army, designed to close the range, then fall back, drawing the enemy into range of the slower elements, such as Wraithguard.

Dunno if it would be any good. But it sounds cool to me, and that's reason enough

[ShadowcatX]

The change to the monofilament weapon rule will really hit Warp spiders hard in certain circumstances as I is often higher than T for many units, unless you are Tau where Firewarriors are T-1 for I, crisis suits are T-2 and riptides will really hurt at T-4.

So the moral of the story is Warp spiders are the new hard counter to Riptides.

Maybe I'm missing it, but how's that? They went from wounding on a 3+ to a 2+, but they lost AP 2.

[DanTheGameMan]

Wow, I am so excited to try out these new rules.
Hawks got a lot of love; my Ork-playing buddy is gonna hate them damn dakkajets are gonna get it now

I'm confused and disappointed by the lack of a model update for the Shining Spears and the bike-autarch, but at least their rules make them a bit more viable. Do we know if the laser lances stay at AP3 in subsequent rounds of combat?

Deep Striking Falcons, by themselves, are good enough for me to field them, not even taking into account their transport capabilities.

And now the Hemlock has become a flying Spiritseer with Heavy D-Scythes?????? I'll take 9 please.


As for the D-weapon fears, yeah, it sucks for everyone else right now, but I'm sure they'll start giving the D to plenty of other factions.
I think the bigger worry is the Scatter-bike spam that will inevitably happen.
When I pick up a pack, I'll magnetize the weapon mounts, but it's unlikely I'll ever give ALL of them heavy weapons; I'm sure there are plenty of other cool things to spend points on, and it just doesn't seem very sporting to take the cheesiest S6-spam option just for lolz. Not fun for anybody, if you ask me.

[DrLove42]

Ignoring D sycthes....which are now scary...the strength d thing really only affects vehicles and models with multi wounds that are below toughness 4.

One models with 1 wound.....theyre killed on a 2...just like before
One multiwou d models below t5 they now lose d3 wounds on a 2+...whereas they used to be IDd on a 2+

Vehiclesnow lose a few hullpoints...whereas they used to suffer a s10 hit and possibly take massive penetrating damage.

Playing as i do in an area that doesnt usually use gargantuans, this is a much more balanced book. ...outside the wraithguard. Theyre scary good now. But arent troops...which means the end of seeing spiritseers i reckon

[ShadowcatX]

3 non-scattering deep striking falcons with 3 BS 5 units of fire dragons, brought in early by an autarch sounds fun. And solid without being broken. Wraith units aren't the only thing that can blow away tanks or LoW (especially with "always run 6 inches"). :)

Strength D wraith cannons is going to discourage the use of Lords of War, which a lot of people wanted. This wasn't the best way to go about it, but it will probably be effective. Should've gotten a point increase though.

With Jetbikes, just use moderation. I'll probably take special weapons on all of mine, but I probably won't field more than 15 (and maybe not even more than 10). I think we'll probably see a mix of shuriken and scatter lasers, shuriken on units that are planning to jump forward and seize objectives and dog fight, scatter lasers on ones that are going to hang back field.

[Stone Edwards]

3 non-scattering deep striking falcons with 3 BS 5 units of fire dragons, brought in early by an autarch sounds fun. And solid without being broken. Wraith units aren't the only thing that can blow away tanks or LoW (especially with "always run 6 inches"). :)

Strength D wraith cannons is going to discourage the use of Lords of War, which a lot of people wanted. This wasn't the best way to go about it, but it will probably be effective. Should've gotten a point increase though.

With Jetbikes, just use moderation. I'll probably take special weapons on all of mine, but I probably won't field more than 15 (and maybe not even more than 10). I think we'll probably see a mix of shuriken and scatter lasers, shuriken on units that are planning to jump forward and seize objectives and dog fight, scatter lasers on ones that are going to hang back field.

I have never been a big fan of bikes, for any army, for some reason so I'll just be going with 9 in order to do the detachment. Later I'll probably do 3 squads of guardians instead, but assembling and painting 20 more guardians doesn't appeal to me at all right now :(

[Bigred]

I'm so happy they gave the Falcon something to make it unique!
*eyeing my three dusty Falcons on the shelf; trying to remember where the can of compressed air is*

[ShadowcatX]

I have never been a big fan of bikes, for any army, for some reason so I'll just be going with 9 in order to do the detachment. Later I'll probably do 3 squads of guardians instead, but assembling and painting 20 more guardians doesn't appeal to me at all right now :(

I'm the exact opposite. I love bikes. I've just stayed away from them (mostly, I do have a white scars army I got cheap on ebay that I've tried out a time or two) because they didn't have any teeth until the dark eldar bikes came out and they're on my "to buy" list. On the flip side I hate guardians. I've hated guardians for over 10 years now. The whole "get a free heavy weapon" is kinda neat, but honestly, if I were going to field them I'd field storm guardians and their special weapons just aren't that expensive.

[Defenestratus]

And Orks just cry if they see Warp Spiders.

If they're still Str 6 then most everything is STILL getting wounded on 2's.

[ShadowcatX]

If they're still Str 6 then most everything is STILL getting wounded on 2's.

Not Eldar / dark eldar (the former of which will probably be a significant portion of the field).

[Defenestratus]

Not Eldar / dark eldar (the former of which will probably be a significant portion of the field).

They'll still get wounded on 3's... not bad. I don't consider it a nerf honestly, and it is a lot more fluffy.

- - - Updated - - -


BRB; buying more Malifaux, Warmachine, and Star Wars figures; also checking for local Infinity and seeing how much Bolt Action will be to get into...

Since you don't need it anymore - can I have your stuff?