Eldar Codex: So, What Do You Think Of It?

[Baron.roboto]

For those of you who also grabbed the digital Codex as soon as it was released, what are the first impressions?

After reading through it, I'm honestly not too sure....

It looks like everything is more expensive, even things which I would have considered over costed anyway! This could be a mark of brilliance that has the sum of the subtle changes cascade to make the list extremely competitive, I guess only theory crafting and gaming will tell.

Love the new units who fit in seamlessly, but again feels like some opportunities have been squandered (I'm looking at you, Autarch!)

I guess my hesitation comes from the earlier perception that 1) costs were going to go down, But instead they have gone up, and 2) They on the surface look just as squishy, along with loosing some of the more no-brainer abilities. Still, as I say before - if they can remain competitive than this codex simply enhances their status as a finesse army, which IMO is no bad thing!

What do you folks think?

[DarkLink]

Not really impressed, but it looks more playable than the previous codex so I'm not really that disappointed. I seriously doubt they'll be the next power codex, though, not by a long shot.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Its great, really fluffy, fun new units and changes will make playing a lot more interesting, Eldrad isn't needed in every list for a start!
Its not a "power codex" but then, none of the 6th editions codexes really have been, its really nice

[UrielVentris]

Eldar are a scalpel army. Always have been. Meq groupthink won't work on this one fellas.

Move, shoot, run. This is something no ones talking about. Sure you might roll a one and not run as far as you want. Point being you can shoot and scoot around corners. Peppering your enemy and ap2ing people hurts, you'll need to cut them down a few at a time.

Psychic goodness. You'll get many chances at the different powers, and if you take a Varried list, you'll just have to slot in your seers in different spots. Again, not a problem for a smart player not using a sledgehammer army.

Bs4 to everyone. Enough Said

War walkers w missile launchers will be a good alternative to the fighters if you so desire. 6 guided sky fire shots a turn isn't bad.

Reapers come in bundles of 10 is awesome plus they have 2 missile types now.

Phoenix lords o.o Asurmen looks beast, and the banshee one should be able to cut through termis nicely.

Sad that swooping hawks can't assault flyers, would have made them worth taking.


Overall I like the book. Is it easymode like neurons or grey knights? No. It's for smart people. ;)

I think eldar will pester the hell out of the 'top tier' codexes. Only time will tell though...

[Baron.roboto]

Wow, Mantle of the Laughing God is a game-changer, stick that in a character with a unit of Shining Spears for fun guaranteed!

[chicop76]

Eldar are a scalpel army. Always have been. Meq groupthink won't work on this one fellas.

Move, shoot, run. This is something no ones talking about. Sure you might roll a one and not run as far as you want. Point being you can shoot and scoot around corners. Peppering your enemy and ap2ing people hurts, you'll need to cut them down a few at a time.

Psychic goodness. You'll get many chances at the different powers, and if you take a Varried list, you'll just have to slot in your seers in different spots. Again, not a problem for a smart player not using a sledgehammer army.

Bs4 to everyone. Enough Said

War walkers w missile launchers will be a good alternative to the fighters if you so desire. 6 guided sky fire shots a turn isn't bad.

Reapers come in bundles of 10 is awesome plus they have 2 missile types now.

Phoenix lords o.o Asurmen looks beast, and the banshee one should be able to cut through termis nicely.

Sad that swooping hawks can't assault flyers, would have made them worth taking.


Overall I like the book. Is it easymode like neurons or grey knights? No. It's for smart people. ;)

I think eldar will pester the hell out of the 'top tier' codexes. Only time will tell though...



Move, shoot, run

Basically it's what they always did before 6th edition came along. Can they move, shoot, run, assault should be the question I would like answered.

[daboarder]

Move, shoot, run

Basically it's what they always did before 6th edition came along. Can they move, shoot, run, assault should be the question I would like answered.

DO YOU EVEN READ THE RULE BOOK? ever?

do yourself a favour and verify what your thinking before you type it.

You have NEVER until now been able to shoot AND run.

[Vdor103]

Here's mine:

4151

"May Sixes be upon him" - The Church of Kelly is back in a BIG way. Between bladestorm, monofiliment and distort, almost every "6" does something extra...now I just gotta remember that during the game and each time praise our Eldar savior.

"My fortune has run out" - my 40k play style always revolved around a meaty unit (Wraithguard, Harlequins, Warlocks w/ Jetbikes, and even Pathfinders "fortuned up" via Eldrad or a Farseer. I guess I'm going to have to learn to play this game just like everyone else...

Challenge accepted - The options available to each Exarch and Phoenix Lord are quite amazing. There are so many different powers that change the dynamic of a 1-on-1 battle - I can't wait to roll-off against my opponent and see their faces when I turn their <insert UBER weapon here> into a measly butter knife. Although, I'm sure there'll be times where that same butter knife will be the death of me...

Leadership fail - There's a serious leadership test theme to this army that I'm going to have to spend a bit more time on. Starting with all the pinning weapons available, several ways to modify your opponent leadership rolls, and clever ways to ignoring fearless, cause fear and others, this combination is something to build upon.

Power Weapon X - I found it funny that there were a few instances in the book that kept the broad term "power weapon" leaving it for the player to model with either a sword/axe/lance/maul. By design, and if so, is it wrong that I want to magnetize my models to switch them out right before a match?

Heavy Choices - Is it me or the heavy weapon category just got heavier? Its good to see several viable Fast Attack choices, but there are so many options there for Heavy Choices now (and nothing moved out *cough* Dark Reapers *cough* War Walkers *cough*. I guess its a good thing.

Zooming in - Lastly, I'm pretty impressed with the variety of new precision shot rules led by the new HQ Ranger. His ability to make every shot a precision shot at BS9! and giving that ability to other pathfinders (for a cost) seems incredible! Not sure how viable it is, but knowing me, I'll give it a shot...pun intended.

[DrLove42]

I dunno i feel Kelly let us down a bit here. Great fluff, average rules. Which would be fine if every other codex wasn't great or better

My biggest problem is i only have 2 HQ slots. And want an Avatar, a Farseer, A spiritseer and a Wraithseer

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Wow, Mantle of the Laughing God is a game-changer, stick that in a character with a unit of Shining Spears for fun guaranteed!

You realise that the character loses Independent Character right? Which means that they can't join units...


DO YOU EVEN READ THE RULE BOOK? ever?

do yourself a favour and verify what your thinking before you type it.

You have NEVER until now been able to shoot AND run.

Hello, we're the Tau Empire.

[cebalrai]

Eldar are a scalpel army. Always have been. Meq groupthink won't work on this one fellas.

Move, shoot, run. This is something no ones talking about. Sure you might roll a one and not run as far as you want. Point being you can shoot and scoot around corners. Peppering your enemy and ap2ing people hurts, you'll need to cut them down a few at a time.

Psychic goodness. You'll get many chances at the different powers, and if you take a Varried list, you'll just have to slot in your seers in different spots. Again, not a problem for a smart player not using a sledgehammer army.

Bs4 to everyone. Enough Said

War walkers w missile launchers will be a good alternative to the fighters if you so desire. 6 guided sky fire shots a turn isn't bad.

Reapers come in bundles of 10 is awesome plus they have 2 missile types now.

Phoenix lords o.o Asurmen looks beast, and the banshee one should be able to cut through termis nicely.

Sad that swooping hawks can't assault flyers, would have made them worth taking.


Overall I like the book. Is it easymode like neurons or grey knights? No. It's for smart people. ;)

I think eldar will pester the hell out of the 'top tier' codexes. Only time will tell though...


This is an excellent summary. One thing though, Swooping Hawks:

- Don't scatter upon deep striking. Need to be behind LOS-blocking cover or on top of an objective? You can do it with 100% reliability now.
- Have an AP4 large blast grenade pack now that ignores cover and only scatters d6. Goodbye Tau Pathfinders.
- The Exarch's gun forces blinding checks. Lights out, BS1 Riptide.
- Got +1 shots
- Got cheaper
- Still have Haywire grenades to mince heavy vehicles in assaults.

They actually seem pretty good to me now and worth their points. If they have a drawback it's that they compete in the FA slot with borderline-OP Warp Spiders :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Mind explaining the Warp Spider comment?

[daboarder]

Hello, we're the Tau Empire.

which unit could do that?

As to warpspiders they basically move to where they want and then shoot a swarm of S6/7

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ethereal power: Zephyr's Grace, the unit may shoot immediately after making a run move.

Fair enough, that's cool, didn't really read them much, and now I am away from my 'dex.

[DrLove42]

Fire Prisms don't combine fire anymore.

[daboarder]

Ethereal power: Zephyr's Grace, the unit may shoot immediately after making a run move.

Fair enough, that's cool, didn't really read them much, and now I am away from my 'dex.

Eh thats the new rules, fair enough but my original point stands,

If you want to B*tch about a codex atleast know how it works/has worked before you do.

[cebalrai]

Mind explaining the Warp Spider comment?

Let's see.

- Deep Strike
- Assault 2, S6 rending, monofilament so higher S on occasion and AP1.
- 6+2d6 move phase
- Run+shoot or Shoot+ run in the shooting phase.
- Move another 2d6 in the assault phase

They're ridiculously agile and mobile and they hit like a truck.


Fire Prisms don't combine fire anymore.

And they're better for it.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I have two thoughts. The first is that it's a beautiful book full of fun things.

The other is that Eldar are going to be trolling every other race out there, used well. The profusion of Pinning, Rending, Bladestorm, Monofilament, Blind, and psychic powers they can put out, while running hither and yon is, well... I look forward to learning how to use it all properly. :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Eh thats the new rules, fair enough but my original point stands,

If you want to B*tch about a codex atleast know how it works/has worked before you do.

What? That was unprovoked.
When exactly did I b*tch about the Eldar Codex? I said it was great.


Let's see.

- Deep Strike
- Assault 2, S6 rending, monofilament so higher S on occasion and AP1.
- 6+2d6 move phase
- Run+shoot or Shoot+ run in the shooting phase.
- Move another 2d6 in the assault phase

They're ridiculously agile and mobile and they hit like a truck.

Well that's summed it up nicely, now I just have to work out how to make them look good too. xD
Thank you, as explained, I didn't really look at them.

[daboarder]

What? That was unprovoked.
When exactly did I b*tch about the Eldar Codex? I said it was great.


Sorry TDA, that was a general "you" not a "you" specifically.

[cebalrai]

Well that's summed it up nicely, now I just have to work out how to make them look good too. xD
Thank you, as explained, I didn't really look at them.

They also play nicely with an Autarch adding a fusion gun to the mix and increased CC ability. If you're going with flyers or a reserve strategy you want this unit.

[daboarder]

They also play nicely with an Autarch adding a fusion gun to the mix and increased CC ability. If you're going with flyers or a reserve strategy you want this unit.

Autrachs are going to be great for fliers, the abillity to push reserves back means your AV10 fliers can choose when they want to come in.

[YorkNecromancer]

The Exarch's gun forces blinding checks. Lights out, BS1 Riptide.

In addition to negating Night Fighting, don't Blacksun Filters render one immune to the effects of Blind?

[cebalrai]

In addition to negating Night Fighting, don't Blacksun Filters render one immune to the effects of Blind?


No.
5 chars

[SeekingOne]

In addition to negating Night Fighting, don't Blacksun Filters render one immune to the effects of Blind?
Yes. Models with Blacksun filters don't care about Blind effects.

[daboarder]

yeah just reading it, they are immune to blind

[RGilbert26]

Im enjoying the codex quite a bit, Guardians are now worth taking (WS/BS4 and rending guns), Wraithlords are characters, Fire Prisms can Lance, Jetbikes are cheaper and loads more stuff.

[Anggul]

There are some great new things. The issue I have, however, is the things that were just left the same and not changed at all. The Phoenix Lord statline which is pathetic for what are supposed to be the greatest of all Eldar Warriors. Apparently only as good as an Autarch. Harlequins are also still stuck in their 4th ed form. Great in 4th ed, rather crap now. Exarchs are still just slightly better squad leaders. They should have 2 wounds like Ork Nobz. Shuriken Catapults should be 18" range, so Guardians are still pretty crap. Wraithlords still don't have invulnerable saves, but at least they have 3 attacks now. Witchblades are still crap, they should have made them +1S Force Weapons. Howling Banshees didn't change much and for some reason their Masks don't work like Dirge Casters and stop Overwatch which might actually have made them usable.

As for things that were changed for the worse, Mandiblasters which are meant to be 'high intensity close-range laser blasts' are only S3 like a Laspistol, and the Scorpions became 1 point more expensive. Yeah they gained stuff, but they shouldn't have become more expensive considering they can no longer assault after Outflanking.


I know all of that sounded like I'm being overly negative, but everything else about the codex is awesome, so there are great things but also a lot of notable flaws. It's a shame really, as he did such a great job with Chaos. Still I'm glad for the update and there are many great things, notably our previously pathetic Fast Attack choices suddenly being really good and cool.

[SeekingOne]

About the codex in general:

As I already said today in comments on a few other sites, in the end your impression of the new codex greatly depends on your feelings about the old codex.
There are people (myself included) who used to have a general feeling that with the old 'dex the Eldar were underpowered and really needed a boost. Those people generally suffered (or are going to suffer, if they haven't got their book yet) a serious disappointment - because the new codex really doesn't give us that sort of boost. The overall power level remains about the same. However, if you were fine with the old codex and didn't feel it underpowered, then certainly you'll be fine with this new one as well.

There's one more important thing to note.
With the new codex the Eldar army undergone a huge change in its internal mechanics. In the past Eldar used to have a unique privilege - with the two great powers Fortune and Doom they actually had a serious degree of power over two key factors:
- which of their own units will live, even despite the enemy's concentrated efforts to take them out;
- and which of the enemy units will die fast despite the enemy's concentrated efforts to keep them alive.

It was a game-changing thing, really. Now, with the random psy powers this privilege is gone. Eldar are in the same boat as all other armies, and a Farseer is reduced to a secondary support element. It may not seem much on paper, but in fact it is so significant that you really have to treat the new codex as a brand new army, and learn using it anew.

Apart from that the army dynamics didn't change much. All foot units became slightly more maneuverable, shuriken weapons became a bit more killy, Guardian-based units also became more accurate (BS4) - but overall nothing too dramatic, especially 'cause those boosts are compensated by point costs universally going up a point or two (or more).

GJBs deserve a special note - they have become truly cool as far as basic troops go, that's for sure.

[Defenestratus]

I think overall that the feeling I get from the book is "A missed opportunity." Before I go further, most of the book is acceptable but as I look at it, outside of the vehicles, there are systemic problems with the Eldar book and 6th edition mechanics.

The 12" range as a basic troop weapon in a shooting edition of the ruleset is simply unworkable. Even with Battle Focus, its simply too short to be effective. Even if the gun is Str10 AP1, at 12" its just not going to be fired more than just in overwatch - in which case the BS4 just doesn't matter.

Now here's where I would think that being able to pick a psychic power out of the divination table would be awesomely synergistic. Well unfortunately we only have a 50% shot at getting the power that our guardians need to be a truly deadly overwatching unit. With the div power they're awesome, without it, they're horrible.

And this is the systemic problem I'm talking about. Its almost as if the whole book relies on luck in order to be successful while not really giving us a price discount for that unreliability.

Not all units are like this. Some of the units work in great synergy with each other. Unfortunately these units are usually whole 500 point armies by themselves.

I think the one area where we came out ahead is in our vehicles. The wave serpent is an awesome tank and transport. Its simply awesome. I'm actually astonished how well that energy field works. However, we pay DEARLY for that tank. Its a ridiculously expensive vehicle. Throw TWL scatters, a HF and a cannon on it and you're looking at close to 150 points of tank. Thats a whole aspect squad right there. I understand that the tank itself is powerful, but I don't think its *that* powerful (although if you compare it against say an autolas predator of similar value, it probably is a lot better)

Then of course the vehicles have a huge downside as well.
300+ points for a squad of war walkers with flakk missiles? Yeah I'll pass thanks. Flyers that for some reason missed out on the juicy vehicle upgrades and therefore are going to get boltered to death? Sorry but they aren't going in my lists at that price point. If the crimson hunter was 120 points like a vendetta I'd be all over it - but its not, its 40 points more expensive. Likewise for the wraithknight. It needed to be closer to 200 points base to be viable. Its not and therefore its not going to get used at all once people figure out that its guns, while great, aren't enough to justify that ridiculous price tag.

The missed opportunities come from not actually *fixing* the old book. All of the old pitfalls are still there, and now the ways we mitigated those pitfalls have either become ridiculously expensive or come down to pure chance. What I think that Kelly thinks he's done is brought 4th edition Eldar units up to their value in points cost instead of keeping them the same as they were and dropped their price. I think he's failed in that. I think he's given some units some "glitter" that is supposed to make us think that all of a sudden, our squad of T3 space elves is all of a sudden worth 200+ points in a game where the basic weapon is S4. Essentially, its going to be like playing the old codex with some new toys. After a few games, the new toys will lose their lustre and I'll go back to playing with my FW stuff because it actually *works*.

[eldargal]

I really don't agree. I think there are missed opportunities (Banshees) but the book itself is solid with a lot of possible synergies and units that are viable now which weren't before. I think even Guardians have a use as objective denial units with or without the Overwatch boost.

[RGilbert26]

Been going over the options for the Wraithknight and I've come to the conclusion that the sword option isn't really worth taking. Yes you get the invul save and the sword is master crafted but you're already AP2 and the +1 strength is wasted due to being S10.

Only choice left is to either go for Heavy tank killer or invul save and light to med tank killer.

At least it's jump infantry :P

EDIT: Night Spinner is worth taking too.

[Defenestratus]

I really don't agree. I think there are missed opportunities (Banshees) but the book itself is solid with a lot of possible synergies and units that are viable now which weren't before. I think even Guardians have a use as objective denial units with or without the Overwatch boost.

I think that you'll find guardians just as worthless as they were before outside of maybe just the 90 point 10 strong vanilla squad.


The synergies are there but they're pricey and unreliable. Thats the problem.

[legalsmash]

I think the book is pretty solid (should get mine in the mail monday, went through my bud's and the online things available. The army has never really been tough, and has generally been heavily reliant on synergy to be effective. The current iteration, with its "roll a 6 for more kills" I think really helps keep the army in the mid to top tier. The challange rules as well as the bladestorm/monofilament/distort, etc. as well as periodic ID rules will hopefully let the army annoy the crap out of multiwound unit heavy armies (paladin GK and dark angel.... halberd dudes.)

I like the shoot run/ run shoot change, and think it adds flavor to the army.

Everyone is crying on chans about the banshees, but I can really see them decent as a counter punch unit.... get in danger of charging, counter charge with strategically placed banshees, hide in bushes when battle over.... or am I gtting this wrong?
I think the new wraithblades and the wraith weapons are baller as hell. Definitely looking forward to getting them on a table this upcoming week.

I'm REALLY happy at the overall guardian buff, with the farseer/warlock sgts. FINALLY my "not ulthwe" multicolored ulthwe themed army can rise again!

Ilic gives me a chance to use the over 9000 lovely ranger models I've made over the years

General aspect seems viable. I really think this is pretty decent overall.

[chicop76]

Been going over the options for the Wraithknight and I've come to the conclusion that the sword option isn't really worth taking. Yes you get the invul save and the sword is master crafted but you're already AP2 and the +1 strength is wasted due to being S10.

Only choice left is to either go for Heavy tank killer or invul save and light to med tank killer.

At least it's jump infantry :P

EDIT: Night Spinner is worth taking too.


Doesn't the sword have blind. If it does and you have anyting that lowers I you can lower ws and bs to 1. Which means you might can lower most models to ws 1 in most fights, but other than that not worth taking.

[SeekingOne]

I think overall that the feeling I get from the book is "A missed opportunity." Before I go further, most of the book is acceptable but as I look at it, outside of the vehicles, there are systemic problems with the Eldar book and 6th edition mechanics.

Review by Defenestratus is what I'd call a 'realistic' review :) Agree with most of it.


I think the one area where we came out ahead is in our vehicles. The wave serpent is an awesome tank and transport. Its simply awesome. I'm actually astonished how well that energy field works. However, we pay DEARLY for that tank. Its a ridiculously expensive vehicle.
That's what I always struggle to understand: how can people say that something is "awesome" and yet "ridiculously expensive". Don't these two things balance each other out? :) To me, "awesome" + "ridiculously expensive" = "average".

I understand that the tank itself is powerful, but I don't think its *that* powerful (although if you compare it against say an autolas predator of similar value, it probably is a lot better)

Not sure about Predator comparison; I think AV13 front is a huge advantage. And in all, I have serious concerns about the durability of WS being still too low for that cost.



The missed opportunities come from not actually *fixing* the old book. All of the old pitfalls are still there, and now the ways we mitigated those pitfalls have either become ridiculously expensive or come down to pure chance. What I think that Kelly thinks he's done is brought 4th edition Eldar units up to their value in points cost instead of keeping them the same as they were and dropped their price. I think he's failed in that.
Exactly.
This realization has dawned on me just yesterday: the new codex likely ended up like this mainly because the author was sincerely unaware of the fact that the old codex had some issues that needed fixing. If, just for a second, you imagine that the old 'dex was fine and balanced and all units were priced adequately - it all suddenly starts making sense ;)

[chicop76]

This is an excellent summary. One thing though, Swooping Hawks:

- Don't scatter upon deep striking. Need to be behind LOS-blocking cover or on top of an objective? You can do it with 100% reliability now.
- Have an AP4 large blast grenade pack now that ignores cover and only scatters d6. Goodbye Tau Pathfinders.
- The Exarch's gun forces blinding checks. Lights out, BS1 Riptide.
- Got +1 shots
- Got cheaper
- Still have Haywire grenades to mince heavy vehicles in assaults.

They actually seem pretty good to me now and worth their points. If they have a drawback it's that they compete in the FA slot with borderline-OP Warp Spiders :)


To bad they die to early warning overide and a strength 8 ap 2 pie plate before they even kill the pathfinders.

[SeekingOne]

Doesn't the sword have blind. If it does and you have anyting that lowers I you can lower ws and bs to 1. Which means you might can lower most models to ws 1 in most fights, but other than that not worth taking.

No, the sword doesn't have blind.

However, the logical reasoning behind the WKs upgrades works from the opposite direction IMO. You need that SHIELD to keep the WK alive a bit longer. So you take the Sword+Shield combo not because you need sword, but because you need shield, and this combo is the only one with shield that is still reasonably priced. So to me it's either Sword+Shield, or WK stays at home. Because otherwise it will have to hug cover and stay in the back, relying on pure firepower, which is too weak for its cost.

[chicop76]

DO YOU EVEN READ THE RULE BOOK? ever?

do yourself a favour and verify what your thinking before you type it.

You have NEVER until now been able to shoot AND run.


Wow. I noticed you don't lol. What I meant was prior to 6th is they was able to get to the other side rather quickly due to fleet. It was a move, run, assault than move, shoot, run. It's basically the same principle, but instead of assaulting they are now shooting.

If they still have fleet they can re roll the run move now thanks to 6th edition.

However it means a 12" range is really a 19"-24" range if you take move and run into account. That means if anyone moves up they have a decent chance of getting hit by guardians. That being said other armies really have a 30" range with their basic weapons while Tau has a range of 36". The only benefit the guardians have is the ability to rapid fire, I know it's assault 2, before the other army can rapid fire them thanks to the run move. Also guardians can assault after the double tap while other armies can't due to having rapid fire.

For the most part I expect guardians will be able to shoot turn 2, unless you take serpents. Also it's almost like you will nedd a +2 cover save to get you to point a to point b, good luck vs Tau.

So when I said move, run, shoot is nothing new for Eldar. It really isn't due to you can't run and assault. Even re rolling assault doesn't really make up for it, unless you are using bloodcrushers that can assault 6+d6" and re roll the 6".

Than again since some units use to assault 12" the 2d6 assault really hurted them.

Oh and Tau can do the same thing. I used it several times and use my marker lights to make them shoot like normal. It's a really good ability, especally if your broadsides fail a morale cheak on a skyshield and needed to get back on top.

[chicop76]

No, the sword doesn't have blind.

However, the logical reasoning behind the WKs upgrades works from the opposite direction IMO. You need that SHIELD to keep the WK alive a bit longer. So you take the Sword+Shield combo not because you need sword, but because you need shield, and this combo is the only one with shield that is still reasonably priced. So to me it's either Sword+Shield, or WK stays at home. Because otherwise it will have to hug cover and stay in the back, relying on pure firepower, which is too weak for its cost.

Ok, so the shield give you blind. Yeah I agree than the sword is kinda a waste. However the shield makes it all worth it. Blind and a +5 invulnerable save isn't bad. Against i3 and lower models your combat will be nasty tx to blind. I 4 is still a decent chance to blind, but not likely. With I 5 and higher if you get that lucky blind roll than you are gravy.

I will hopefuly get my codex today, so I can't really g by much only what I get here. That being said I probably need to really look over the codex. At first glance I wasn't gonna run a riptide, till I noticed some thing I over looked. I played the riptide and now I have two of them. The main thing with a tide it feels like why run crisis suits or stealth suits when in most situations the tide is better, until a force weapon or jaws kill him.

[SeekingOne]

At first glance I wasn't gonna run a riptide, till I noticed some thing I over looked.
What was that thing that changed your mind, if I may ask? :)

[cebalrai]

To bad they die to early warning overide and a strength 8 ap 2 pie plate before they even kill the pathfinders.

Not if you put them behing LOS-blocking terrain they don't. And if for some reason there's none available you put them behind regular cover, possibly going to ground if it's a real emergency. That will give you a 4+ save or 3+ in ruins versus the Riptide plate of doom which means the Tau player is losing on the exchange.

Then next turn you skyleap (or w/e it's called now) if need be.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Sorry TDA, that was a general "you" not a "you" specifically.

Oh, okay. Sorry for the misunderstanding matey. :p

[RGilbert26]

No, the sword doesn't have blind.

However, the logical reasoning behind the WKs upgrades works from the opposite direction IMO. You need that SHIELD to keep the WK alive a bit longer. So you take the Sword+Shield combo not because you need sword, but because you need shield, and this combo is the only one with shield that is still reasonably priced. So to me it's either Sword+Shield, or WK stays at home. Because otherwise it will have to hug cover and stay in the back, relying on pure firepower, which is too weak for its cost.

I disagree, the other option is viable - yes you pay more for the shield but the gun is pretty good (apparently it was quite nasty in the WD battle report). Also if you have two WK, one with the big anti-tank guns and the other with the gun + shield then the enemy has a dilemma. They either fire high strength ap3 weapons at the no invul save knight or they fire at the invul save one. Either way they're pretty screwed :P

[Vdor103]

My biggest problem is i only have 2 HQ slots. And want an Avatar, a Farseer, A spiritseer and a Wraithseer

Why do I have the feeling that Eldar players will be demanding Double Force Org...

[RGilbert26]

I dunno i feel Kelly let us down a bit here. Great fluff, average rules. Which would be fine if every other codex wasn't great or better

My biggest problem is i only have 2 HQ slots. And want an Avatar, a Farseer, A spiritseer and a Wraithseer

You can't get Wraithseers, Spiritseers are what give Wraithguard as troops.


Dark Reapers are now worth taking as you can make them anti-tank again, plus they get flakk missiles and Jink saves are not allowed.

[eldargal]

You can take Wraithseers if your group uses FW rules.

[RGilbert26]

Duh, forgot about the FW unit. Yes that's true though you can't use them for ToS at WH World.

[mr_draken]

still waiting for my codex copy, but have spent some time on the phone with a mate going over things (he was nice enough to read entries out etc)

Am happy my Saim-Hann army works well/better in these rules, bikes got alot cheaper (3x6+2cannons)
bike council shall be interesting(especially with splitting off warlocks for the bike squads as i go)
Vipers with BS4 and cheaper weapons, ill be running 3 easy (i have 5 fully magnetized, so thats no issue here)
Spiders are insane, ill be taking a autarch with fusion gun with them for even more fun.(same loadout for me as last codex, it did a excellent job at what i wanted last codex, even better now)
Undecided on my wraith lord at the moment, will have to have a good think on him.
my 5 man ranger squad will go in still, just because.

I will actually be buying a prism kit now (Yes, i must be the ONLY saim-hann player not to have one.)
Falcon is going to probably be shelved for the moment.
Im thinking of tossing 2 guardian squads in for wave serpents and ground scoring units, im thinking ill go a 3rd with wraith guard inside for larger games.
Unsure about secondary HQ, do i go a farseer for council.... or avatar for more things to be shot at, maybe Ra with the rangers, maybe the ranger character?
Spears will be brought, and i will test them out, i always found their biggest draw back was limited numbers, which is now fixed, as is the points costs.
Flyer will be brought, and tested, magnetized into both if i can work it out properly.
Ill buy a wraith knight, just for the model, magnetize the weapons load outs, and see if i can make it work, it is fast after all, so still fits with my theme

Overall im happy with the codex so far and cannot wait to get testing(will know better when i can read and re read it, and not have it read out over the phone, HURRY UP MONDAY!)

[RGilbert26]

Just in case anyone is interested here are the new plastic Farseer and finecast Spiritseer models.

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i394/RGilbert26/farseerspiritseer_zps0defae5c.png

[mr_draken]

I actually like the farseer model alot, i may actually pic it up, as im using the very old metal farseer(from 3rd edition or earlyer?) and would like to upgrade him.

Spiritseer is nice, if i ever decide to go heavy on the wraith guard i may try and get one.

[Lexington]

Honestly, I dig the hell out of this book, to the point that the Eldar 'Allied Contingent' I've been planning on now looks suspiciously more like a full army. This feels like a real Eldar book, all elite and off-kilter, with extreme specialization that has, I think, led to people underestimating certain units. This is going to be a fun one.

[Defenestratus]

Honestly, I dig the hell out of this book, to the point that the Eldar 'Allied Contingent' I've been planning on now looks suspiciously more like a full army. This feels like a real Eldar book, all elite and off-kilter, with extreme specialization that has, I think, led to people underestimating certain units. This is going to be a fun one.

Oh no. Please. We don't need more Eldar up in the channel.

[Lexington]

Oh no. Please. We don't need more Eldar up in the channel.
Hey, Regnir, think you can swing an Elf force? Deffie sounds lonely. ;)

[Mr Mystery]

Wee something I noted...

Illic's special rules mention rangers, and Alaitoc pathfinders....

No pathfinders in codex. Evidence the other ones will indeed contain rules as well?

[Archon Charybdis]

It's going to feel weird as hell not taking Farseers anymore--though I might run them as Spiritseers for a shot at those tasty Warlock powers. I think Defenstratus said it, it seems like it's still an army based on synergy and it seems to me that old "Farseer tax" is still included in many of the unit prices, but now the powers that we'd rely on for those synergies are entirely random (and 4/7 of the Farseer powers are just awful).

A lot of units are definitely better though, and it remains to be seen how well they can operate unsupported. Probably 2/3 of the book seems fine on the face of it, but I'm still uneasy about how that lack of reliable psychic support is going to snowball for the rest of the army.


No pathfinders in codex. Evidence the other ones will indeed contain rules as well?

Isn't one of his rules to upgrade Rangers to Pathfinders?

[eldargal]

I thought Illic let Rangers upgrade to Pathfinders?

[Mr Mystery]

I'll be in the corner, wearing the dunce's cap.

Didn't think to check the army list bit....

[DarkLink]

Spiritseer's rocking out.


I actually like the Falcon. Take a Bright Lance for the 3 Str 8 AP 2 shots, and that's better than either one focused Str 9 Ap2 or an AP3 Large Blast (assuming your opponent is competent enough to spread out. The Prism is a little better against hordes, but the Falcon can kill Paladins and Crisis Suits.

[Defenestratus]

Spiritseer's rocking out.


I actually like the Falcon. Take a Bright Lance for the 3 Str 8 AP 2 shots, and that's better than either one focused Str 9 Ap2 or an AP3 Large Blast (assuming your opponent is competent enough to spread out. The Prism is a little better against hordes, but the Falcon can kill Paladins and Crisis Suits.

Darklink: The prism in lance mode is Str9 AP1 Lance.


That AP1 part is pretty huge.

[RGilbert26]

Urgh, busy putting my first box of Wraithguard together and when it comes round to doing the guns I realise that I was infact following the Wraithblade instructions, lol. Good thing I was planning on doing them with the second box :p

[DarkLink]

Darklink: The prism in lance mode is Str9 AP1 Lance.


That AP1 part is pretty huge.

That is nice, but 3 Str 8 Ap2 shots is still better against pretty much everything but Land Raiders. In which case I'd rather go with Fire Dragons and/or Wraithguard.

[Baron.roboto]

Mmm... Slap a Spiritseer with Scorpions for Stealth + Shrouding, but most importantly - can someone tell me where the Scorpions Claw says it strikes at init 1, and isn't a badass I6 fist of doom?


Also, is there any rule stopping a Crimson Hunter flying off a side board edge the same turn he arrives, in case he arrives too early?

[Defenestratus]

can someone tell me where the Scorpions Claw says it strikes at init 1, and isn't a badass I6 fist of doom?


Its not there so yes.. it is an I6 fist o'doom. However it is a *pricey* I6 fist o'doom.

[Archon Charybdis]

As a point of curiosity since I'm lacking my new book, points wise how much is the new claw compared to the old?

[LittleMen]

I noticed the Scoripon's Claw wasn't Unwieldy and did a little happy dance. I've got one painted and ready to claw up some terminators.

[RGilbert26]

Note to self: When assembling models that have hand+weapon separate from the arm - glue together before you glue onto torso. I forgot this and so ended up having to hold them longer and wait for them to dry and stiffen.

Other than that the Wraithblades look great.

[LittleMen]

Actually, it is a S8 I6 badass fist of doom if you take crushing blow...
I noticed the Scoripon's Claw wasn't Unwieldy and did a little happy dance. I've got one painted and ready to claw up some terminators.

[Archon Charybdis]

Actually, it is a S8 I6 badass fist of doom if you take crushing blow...

Order of operations--you multiply then add.

[SeekingOne]

As a point of curiosity since I'm lacking my new book, points wise how much is the new claw compared to the old?

The claw itself is whopping two times more expensive. The exarch upgrade is 2 pts less than before. Basic scorps are 1 point up too.

[LittleMen]

Order of operations--you multiply then add.

Ah, right you are. I'll probably stick with S6 then. No killing blow for marines, but not too shabby. Seems worth it even at the high price.

[Archon Charybdis]

The claw itself is whopping two times more expensive.

Freaking seriously? Ugh, it's good, but I'm kind of doubting it's that good. Is it a specialist weapon? I mean, a relic blade which also comes on a 2 attack model is 15pts, and I'm not sure AP2 is worth the difference.

[Xenith]

I'm loving the new codex. Even things like Banshees, which some folk seem to have written off already, can be made to work.

With a rerollable D6+3" run move, and 6" regular move they can easily keep up with a wave serpent which provides them cover. If you get lucky and get jinx on a nearby warlock, their AP3 will still ruin terminators.

Crystal matrix, holofields and star engines on everything let you pretty much redeploy your entire army to your opponents flank in their deployment zone in your first turn, shoot side armour of tanks with a prism cannon/pulse laser/TL Bright lances, and still get a 3+ cover save on everything.

Point reorganising on a lot of stuff: jetbikes and pathfinders - incredible.

The claw being 2x more expensive is countered by the fact its S6AP2 and strikes at initiative. Marines pay 25pts for a relic blade, two handed at AP3 and that is still seen as a good investment. Stick on crushing blow and stalker and you have a very good character assassin (strikes first at S8 AP2, rerolls failed wounds, with 3A basic)

Dragons got more expensive. They had to. Having an 80pt unit that could reliably nuke a land raider every turn? The 3+ save is good, and means fewer will die from the ensuing blast, and they can run back behind their serpent after they shoot. Fast shot on a dragon exarch is powerful.

Wraithlord now +1A, and gets +1S and master crafted for a melta bomb? Yes. Base points went up, but now you get a WL with 2 bright lances or 2starcannons and a sword for the same price as an old EML/BL lord. He is also a character, so you can put those 4 starcannon shots a turn to good use with precision.

War walkers can now shoot and run. Star engines and 2x Bright lances for ~85pts per walker gets yo 2 lance shots that can then run D6+3" behind a building.

Phoenix lords. Christ, people complaining about their statlines??? Theyre pretty much 7's across the board.

Try 20 guardians, 2 platforms with a primaris conceal warlock, with Karandras up front (stealth). 4+ cover save in the open, 36 infiltrating shurikens and 2 starcannon shots. Karandras laughs at flamer wounds, and ambush of blades gives you the one time reroll of all 1's to wound.

Personally, I'm going to pair Fuegan with dire avengers in a serpent. both jump out separately, Fuegan gets 2x BS7 firepike shots into a transport, then the avengers shoot the hell out of whatever falls out. They both then run away.

Oh yea. Fue'gan with Renew. For funsies. Dude suffers 3 wounds, he's now S9 AP2, A7.

[RGilbert26]

Currently building my Wraithknight and im now on the torso, looked over to the legs/feet/pelvis/base drying and realised that it is already almost as tall as a Dreadknight.

[Defenestratus]

I'm loving the new codex. Even things like Banshees, which some folk seem to have written off already, can be made to work.

With a rerollable D6+3" run move, and 6" regular move they can easily keep up with a wave serpent which provides them cover. If you get lucky and get jinx on a nearby warlock, their AP3 will still ruin terminators.


"I smell a whole like of 'if' coming off of this plan.."


Crystal matrix, holofields and star engines on everything let you pretty much redeploy your entire army to your opponents flank in their deployment zone in your first turn, shoot side armour of tanks with a prism cannon/pulse laser/TL Bright lances, and still get a 3+ cover save on everything.

Sure it will let you redeploy the three models you have left in your army after you buy all that crap for your AV12 tank.


Point reorganising on a lot of stuff: jetbikes and pathfinders - incredible.

Only one of those is actually *better* than before. The other one got dropped in points because its a pale version if its former glory.


The claw being 2x more expensive is countered by the fact its S6AP2 and strikes at initiative. Marines pay 25pts for a relic blade, two handed at AP3 and that is still seen as a good investment. Stick on crushing blow and stalker and you have a very good character assassin (strikes first at S8 AP2, rerolls failed wounds, with 3A basic)

Why can't people get this rule right? Crushing blow is added AFTER the strength bonus. S7Ap2 is still nice but thats a 77 point, T3 W1 3+ sv dude.


Dragons got more expensive. They had to. Having an 80pt unit that could reliably nuke a land raider every turn? The 3+ save is good, and means fewer will die from the ensuing blast, and they can run back behind their serpent after they shoot. Fast shot on a dragon exarch is powerful.

No argument here other than the fact that I think that they were priced too heavily.


Wraithlord now +1A, and gets +1S and master crafted for a melta bomb? Yes. Base points went up, but now you get a WL with 2 bright lances or 2starcannons and a sword for the same price as an old EML/BL lord. He is also a character, so you can put those 4 starcannon shots a turn to good use with precision.

And still dies krak missiles just as he did before.


War walkers can now shoot and run. Star engines and 2x Bright lances for ~85pts per walker gets yo 2 lance shots that can then run D6+3" behind a building.

85 points for an AV10, 2HP Open-topped walker? Yeah thats a pretty fragile proposition.


Phoenix lords. Christ, people complaining about their statlines??? Theyre pretty much 7's across the board.

I don't think anyone was complaining about their statlines so much as their price and lack of consistent invulnerable save... AGAIN.


Try 20 guardians, 2 platforms with a primaris conceal warlock, with Karandras up front (stealth). 4+ cover save in the open, 36 infiltrating shurikens and 2 starcannon shots. Karandras laughs at flamer wounds, and ambush of blades gives you the one time reroll of all 1's to wound.

Do you play at like, 3000 points because that is a 500 point squad whose threat range is 12". Talk about waste of points.


Personally, I'm going to pair Fuegan with dire avengers in a serpent. both jump out separately, Fuegan gets 2x BS7 firepike shots into a transport, then the avengers shoot the hell out of whatever falls out. They both then run away.

Oh yea. Fue'gan with Renew. For funsies. Dude suffers 3 wounds, he's now S9 AP2, A7.

Nice! I like the fluffy approach you've taken to list building :P

(Didn't mean to quote bomb - sorry)

[Archon Charybdis]

The claw being 2x more expensive is countered by the fact its S6AP2 and strikes at initiative. Marines pay 25pts for a relic blade, two handed at AP3 and that is still seen as a good investment.

Marines pay 15pts per relic blade, and it's considered worthwhile by some people (certainly relic blade toting Vanguard/Honor Guard squads aren't exactly an SM staple). You can bet if they were 25pts no one would even look twice. I'm not convinced the AP2 and an extra attack are worth doubling the price.

[The Sovereign]

From what I've seen so far, I like it. I think Phil's back. Were I a Craftworld player, I'd be excited.

[GrauGeist]

I think the Eldar Codex went from a D- to a C-. Yes, it has better flavor with somewhat better internal balance, but it's still not particularly competitive. 2nd tier, at best for a good general, probably 3rd tier. Which is too bad, because external balance is what matters when everybody else is playing GK and Necrons and Guard.

[GrauGeist]

"May Sixes be upon him" - The Church of Kelly is back in a BIG way. Between bladestorm, monofiliment and distort, almost every "6" does something extra...now I just gotta remember that during the game and each time praise our Eldar savior.

Magic 6s are Thorpian, not Kelly. Gav did that, and GW ran with it. Also, Evil 1s.

[SeekingOne]

Is it a specialist weapon?
No it's not Specialist.
Mandiblasters no longer give an extra attack though - they changed to inflicting one S3 AP- auto-hit at I10 per model. So, Exarch is still at 3 attacks with Claw base: 2 in profile and +1 for extra weapon.

[Mr Mystery]

I think the Eldar Codex went from a D- to a C-. Yes, it has better flavor with somewhat better internal balance, but it's still not particularly competitive. 2nd tier, at best for a good general, probably 3rd tier. Which is too bad, because external balance is what matters when everybody else is playing GK and Necrons and Guard.

Based on how many games played by yourself?

[Xenith]

"Whole lotta negativity"

Meh, you're entitled to post what you do, but the endless pessimism from everyone about this book is grating.

You complain about an 85pt walker. People took them last edition with 2xScat (60pts) and 2x EML (70pts) in units of 3 and they were great. You are being totally un-neccessarily, and unjustly negative. The 85pt version is tricked out to move behind cover and be immune to enemy shooting. Give it holofields for a 3+ cover in ruins. Go nuts.


Marines pay 15pts per relic blade, and it's considered worthwhile by some people
Relic blade: 30pts. You may want to look at the SM captain entry instead of the vanguard sergeant entry which includes the discount for the power weapon that he already has. People happily pay 15pts for lightening claws, 30pts to take you from wounding T4 on a 4+ to a 2+ is a steal.

[Popsical]

A heck of a lot of moaning about new dexs is done because it makes some peeps feel better about losing to "better" dexs.
Damn youve got a NEW dex be bloody thankful, there are armies that a screaming for one.

[SeekingOne]

Unless I'm missing something, the new codex doesn't mention Farseer's powers requiring no line of sight. Thus, even if a Farseer is lucky enough to roll Fortune or Doom (or just settles for primaris Guide for that matter), he still can't use them while embarked in a transport.

Welcome back to 4th edition...

[Defenestratus]

Unless I'm missing something, the new codex doesn't mention Farseer's powers requiring no line of sight. Thus, even if a Farseer is lucky enough to roll Fortune or Doom (or just settles for primaris Guide for that matter), he still can't use them while embarked in a transport.

Welcome back to 4th edition...

The powers are all categorized - and those categorizations (blessing, malediction, witchfire) all have their own set of rules for LOS (Which I can't remember at the moment because up until today, I never used the rulebook psychic powers table.

[Defenestratus]

A heck of a lot of moaning about new dexs is done because it makes some peeps feel better about losing to "better" dexs.
Damn youve got a NEW dex be bloody thankful, there are armies that a screaming for one.

I could care less about winning or losing. I'd just like to have good games where at the end of turn 4, its still anybody's game. I also have every single Eldar model multiple times over and I haven't used many of them in a decade. I would love to again but not when the rules for them either stink or are not worth the price you pay for them.

[SeekingOne]

The powers are all categorized - and those categorizations (blessing, malediction, witchfire) all have their own set of rules for LOS (Which I can't remember at the moment because up until today, I never used the rulebook psychic powers table.

Same with me, lol. But I did look through rulebook, and there is actually one LOS rule for all categories. It says the typical "Unless specifically stated otherwise, LOS is required".

[mattblowers]

I like the codex. Actually on a first glance, I find it to be stronger than any of the last codi that have come out that I have gotten (Dark Angels, Chaos, and Tau). My son or I play all of them. Eldar has always been my second favorite faction, and I feel they have gotten a lot better. I think the days of the new dex being the winning dex are behind us and I say good riddance. I think all the codicees are leveling out as they come out. Were gonna have to live with Crons for a while, but other than that, we'll just have to wait till all the 6th ed books drop.

Now stop whining and get to playing. We'll figure this out.

[cebalrai]

I like the codex. Actually on a first glance, I find it to be stronger than any of the last codi that have come out that I have gotten (Dark Angels, Chaos, and Tau). My son or I play all of them. Eldar has always been my second favorite faction, and I feel they have gotten a lot better. I think the days of the new dex being the winning dex are behind us and I say good riddance. I think all the codicees are leveling out as they come out. Were gonna have to live with Crons for a while, but other than that, we'll just have to wait till all the 6th ed books drop.

Now stop whining and get to playing. We'll figure this out.


1-0 with new Eldar after tabling Tau in 5 turns today.

That vehicle gear that makes everything reroll successful leadership checks? I simultaneously tank shocked two units of Fire Warriors off the map with a single move and then did the same to his Pathfinders the next turn. After that he was toast. The match was really easy.

[AlaitocJib]

Been going over the options for the Wraithknight and I've come to the conclusion that the sword option isn't really worth taking. Yes you get the invul save and the sword is master crafted but you're already AP2 and the +1 strength is wasted due to being S10.

Only choice left is to either go for Heavy tank killer or invul save and light to med tank killer.

At least it's jump infantry :P

EDIT: Night Spinner is worth taking too.

A couple things though. It's a jump MC. So does it use the rules for Jump which makes it 12 inch movement or MC which would make it 6 inch movement? Also according to jump rules, hammer of wrath and deep strike. Deep strike behind cover. 12 inches out, run or assault (forgive me I'm picking the rules up after years hiatus). So on the charge 5 attacks, then one more as HOW at INT 10 STR 10 AP-. Well the AP dont mean snot because he's a MC right? Free kill. Minus Invulns, etc?

[DarkLink]

That's actually pretty funny. Too bad it's only on the Flyer.

[darth_papi76]

I think its okay. The points/model ratio seems to balance out to the old codex, but with improved stats on certain units. It feels like just more of the same without any real innovation. I would have liked the Shuriken Catapults to have gone up to 18 inches. Assault 3 lasblasters would have been amazing as an option for the Guardians. Webway portals would have been great too. But I think Eldrad's not dead, so I'm happy.

[daboarder]

A couple things though. It's a jump MC. So does it use the rules for Jump which makes it 12 inch movement or MC which would make it 6 inch movement? Also according to jump rules, hammer of wrath and deep strike. Deep strike behind cover. 12 inches out, run or assault (forgive me I'm picking the rules up after years hiatus). So on the charge 5 attacks, then one more as HOW at INT 10 STR 10 AP-. Well the AP dont mean snot because he's a MC right? Free kill. Minus Invulns, etc?

All that is covered in the Jump rules and the HoW rules.

[GrauGeist]

Based on how many games played by yourself?

Based on plenty enough games with the previous Codex, and noting that none of the previous fundamental problems were addressed in any meaningful way. Chroming irrelevant elements means nothing. It's like Kelly went out of his way not to actually fix anything that people had problems with, especially in the transition to 6E.

[AlaitocJib]

All that is covered in the Jump rules and the HoW rules.

I know what those rules do. Was merely trying to point out a possible huge benefit with a WK armed with a sword option. You didn't answer my questions though. Does the WK move 12 inches. Or 6 inches. I have the books I just want clarification.


Edit: Went back and he said counts as Jump Infantry so excuse me. Good to know. That could have potential...

[calamitycal]

Based on plenty enough games with the previous Codex, and noting that none of the previous fundamental problems were addressed in any meaningful way. Chroming irrelevant elements means nothing. It's like Kelly went out of his way not to actually fix anything that people had problems with, especially in the transition to 6E.

That's a pretty good summary of the codex. It's not bad, certainly not horrible, but it's not *great*, and it should have been great. If I had to characterize it, I'd call it "rushed".

A lot of neat ideas - but not well thought out, not well balanced, almost no addressing of how much the 6e rules changed fundamental things about the Eldar, and too many "wouldn't it be cool if..." stuff thrown in that was clearly not thought through.. Compare that to the Tau Codex where you can see the influence of the 6e rules all over it. This codex feels like they ignored the changes in 6e and just through together stuff they thought would be cool.

The Eldar will still be a fun army to play, there is definitely some very cool stuff in here, and they certainly won't be at the bottom as far as overall power. But they will be mostly over-matched against the more powerful codexes.

I think "missed opportunity" and "rushed" is the best way to summarize it.

[Defenestratus]

1-0 with new Eldar after tabling Tau in 5 turns today.

That vehicle gear that makes everything reroll successful leadership checks? I simultaneously tank shocked two units of Fire Warriors off the map with a single move and then did the same to his Pathfinders the next turn. After that he was toast. The match was really easy.

Wait - what kind of horrible list did the tau player have if your bomber wasn't blown out of the sky on the turn it came in or your tank(s)? I can't think of an army better suited to annihilate this strategy better than the tau.

[Learn2Eel]

Wait - what kind of horrible list did the tau player have if your bomber wasn't blown out of the sky on the turn it came in?

Don't you think it might be possible the Eldar player neutralized most of their anti-air capability before it came on? :rolleyes: So many outlying factors to consider, but no, it is obviously down to a terrible list. Boring.
And yes, before you say it, I know Tau have great potential - better than most - to deal with flyers, particularly lightly armoured ones. That doesn't preclude great generalship - such as smart positioning - or neutralization of key targets though.

I'm enjoying reading all the perspectives on the codex. Certainly the overall impression I am getting from the community is "good, but not great". I could care less how it stacks up to the "top" codices, as those ones need re-doing and will be toned down in their eventual 6th Edition releases (Necrons, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard). Even then, you can make some very strong Eldar lists that can more than match other armies. I think once people settle down and start practically applying these rules, they will be be more impressed than currently. It wouldn't be an Eldar codex if it wasn't tricky.

[Defenestratus]

Don't you think it might be possible the Eldar player neutralized most of their anti-air capability before it came on? :rolleyes: So many outlying factors to consider, but no, it is obviously down to a terrible list. Boring.
And yes, before you say it, I know Tau have great potential - better than most - to deal with flyers, particularly lightly armoured ones. That doesn't preclude great generalship - such as smart positioning - or neutralization of key targets though.

I'm enjoying reading all the perspectives on the codex. Certainly the overall impression I am getting from the community is "good, but not great". I could care less how it stacks up to the "top" codices, as those ones need re-doing and will be toned down in their eventual 6th Edition releases (Necrons, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard). Even then, you can make some very strong Eldar lists that can more than match other armies. I think once people settle down and start practically applying these rules, they will be be more impressed than currently. It wouldn't be an Eldar codex if it wasn't tricky.

Sorry but tau anti-air defenses are VERY difficult to be "neutralized" in likely a single turn.

I'm not saying that it would be impossible to pull this off, but I wouldn't expect it against Tau honestly.

As for the book - I'm comparing it directly to its predecessor - the aforementioned Tau. That book is a much more solid 6e codex than this book that has more questions than it does answers.

I started a list on G+


Why don't farseers have ways to mitigate random psychic powers?
Why don't swooping hawks interact with flyers?
Why don't our flyers have ANY defense upgrades whatsoever and cost MORE than most flyers?
Why do banshees just plain suck?
Why does the falcon even exist when the wave serpent is better in every way?
Why does the wraithknight have 4 weapons but can only shoot two?
Why do Dire Avengers have, of all things, counter attack?
Why do shuriken catapults still suck with their 12" range when the average charge distance is 13" and rapid fire weapons are now move and fire?
Why in the hell is the wraithknight so bloody expensive?
Why is the Dark Reaper Exarch the only one thats able to get Flakk missiles?
Why does Illic have a badass gun but still only wound on 4's and is still vulnerable to Look Out Sir? (Looking at you vindicare)
Why do the Phoenix lords still have super-expensive costs and most don't have invulnerable saves?
Why can't the Avatar get battle fortune exarch power - but can get 4 that are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS to him?
Why do swooping hawks even have haywire grenades when they will get blown off the table the second they land?
Why is the Autarch literally copy and pasted out of the old book? Did PK not get the message that the Autarch is horrible?
Why does the whole army rely on rolling 6's to do well?

[daboarder]

WOW, really wow....HAHA play better?

I mean I have never read such drivel.

sorry you didn't get an I win button for a two player game.

I mean how many situations are you going to run into where a PL NEEDS an invul? Not that many!

[calamitycal]

Sorry but tau anti-air defenses are VERY difficult to be "neutralized" in likely a single turn.

I'm not saying that it would be impossible to pull this off, but I wouldn't expect it against Tau honestly.

As for the book - I'm comparing it directly to its predecessor - the aforementioned Tau. That book is a much more solid 6e codex than this book that has more questions than it does answers.

I started a list on G+

Why don't farseers have ways to mitigate random psychic powers?
Why don't swooping hawks interact with flyers?
Why don't our flyers have ANY defense upgrades whatsoever and cost MORE than most flyers?
Why do banshees just plain suck?
Why does the falcon even exist when the wave serpent is better in every way?
Why does the wraithknight have 4 weapons but can only shoot two?
Why do Dire Avengers have, of all things, counter attack?
Why do shuriken catapults still suck with their 12" range when the average charge distance is 13" and rapid fire weapons are now move and fire?
Why in the hell is the wraithknight so bloody expensive?
Why is the Dark Reaper Exarch the only one thats able to get Flakk missiles?
Why does Illic have a badass gun but still only wound on 4's and is still vulnerable to Look Out Sir? (Looking at you vindicare)
Why do the Phoenix lords still have super-expensive costs and most don't have invulnerable saves?
Why can't the Avatar get battle fortune exarch power - but can get 4 that are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS to him?
Why do swooping hawks even have haywire grenades when they will get blown off the table the second they land?
Why is the Autarch literally copy and pasted out of the old book? Did PK not get the message that the Autarch is horrible?
Why does the whole army rely on rolling 6's to do well?


You will likely incur some useless snarky remarks for that post, but those are all good and valid questions. Too much of the codex screams of neat ideas that weren't thought through, half-baked ideas, and unfinished work.

[UrielVentris]

Based on plenty enough games with the previous Codex, and noting that none of the previous fundamental problems were addressed in any meaningful way. Chroming irrelevant elements means nothing. It's like Kelly went out of his way not to actually fix anything that people had problems with, especially in the transition to 6E.

Sorry but ever think you were simply playing wrong? Eldar aren't a hammer army you want that play marines.

[UrielVentris]

So many negative nancies here in this thread. How many of you actually played eldar (not against them) in the last edition?

Eldar armies have parts that fit specific goals (so sorry it's not GK easymode) that go in specific orders. If you play eldar to its strengths then you can easily beat any book out pre this codex. All this book did was fix up units to be even better at what they do.

If you play like a stupid mon keigh with them then you're going to get pasted.

Swooping hawks are awesome at av due to their haywire. You can't expect the to turn two a land raider though, you need to... What's it called? Think ahead. If they're shooting at your hawks but not your D cannons, fire prisms, or other tasty treats then you're doing something wrong. If you don't have more important ground units to be shot than hawks you're doing something wrong.

Between scorpions, hawks, and spiders in your backfield you should give your opponent Plenty to worry about. Your 'line' units should be hitting their line when most threats are damaged/destroyed, and shouldn't have a problem to eliminate the stragglers.

Simple point being that if you don't play the army as its designed to be played then you're not going to win with it. You have 6+ turns to win, use them.

[Learn2Eel]

Sorry but tau anti-air defenses are VERY difficult to be "neutralized" in likely a single turn.

I'm not saying that it would be impossible to pull this off, but I wouldn't expect it against Tau honestly.

As for the book - I'm comparing it directly to its predecessor - the aforementioned Tau. That book is a much more solid 6e codex than this book that has more questions than it does answers.

I started a list on G+

Why don't farseers have ways to mitigate random psychic powers?
Why don't swooping hawks interact with flyers?
Why don't our flyers have ANY defense upgrades whatsoever and cost MORE than most flyers?
Why do banshees just plain suck?
Why does the falcon even exist when the wave serpent is better in every way?
Why does the wraithknight have 4 weapons but can only shoot two?
Why do Dire Avengers have, of all things, counter attack?
Why do shuriken catapults still suck with their 12" range when the average charge distance is 13" and rapid fire weapons are now move and fire?
Why in the hell is the wraithknight so bloody expensive?
Why is the Dark Reaper Exarch the only one thats able to get Flakk missiles?
Why does Illic have a badass gun but still only wound on 4's and is still vulnerable to Look Out Sir? (Looking at you vindicare)
Why do the Phoenix lords still have super-expensive costs and most don't have invulnerable saves?
Why can't the Avatar get battle fortune exarch power - but can get 4 that are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS to him?
Why do swooping hawks even have haywire grenades when they will get blown off the table the second they land?
Why is the Autarch literally copy and pasted out of the old book? Did PK not get the message that the Autarch is horrible?
Why does the whole army rely on rolling 6's to do well?

That's your problem though. You are assuming that the player in question didn't use an Autarch to delay the fighter or identify key targets and neutralize them. If they aren't using fliers themselves (which they commonly don't), removing their markerlights and any battlesuits with Skyfire in three turns is hardly impossible. Riptides tend not to have Skyfire, and most of the units that do aren't that hard to destroy under duress. This isn't a dig against you, but you are definitely removing the natural elements of the game - i.e. positioning, target saturation, target priority - from your appraisal, and are thus assuming that the only way the flier could have been used so effectively was if the Tau player messed up either strategically (list building) or tactically (on the field). Using Eldar Skimmer Tanks in conjunction with the Wraithfighter is a pretty ingenious move, particularly against a generally mediocre Leadership army.

As to your list;
*Because no one else does, and if anything, it makes a lot more sense for Tzeentch Daemons to have this kind of mastery than Eldar - they kind of *are* psychic essence made real. Selecting your in-codex powers may have been ok, but then it would be too easy to spam certain combos; i.e. +2 armoured Wraithguard with a Spiritseer, +2 armoured and Shrouded Shining Spears/Windrider/Seer Councils with Shrouded, etc. I'm fine with random, as I've had to deal with it all through 6E (of all the 6E armies, the only one I don't play regularly is Dark Angels).
*This is one I agree with and find odd, though I think they would have been made even more costly if they had. Would have also been hard to "balance" rules wise; how do they hit a zooming flyer and not be "zooming" themselves? There would have to be restrictions on it. In that sense, it is fair enough, though annoying; in any case, we have anti-air elsewhere.
*They don't cost more than most flyers, actually. Look at all the 6E codices. They really don't. The lack of defensive upgrades does suck, but that is the balance of them; they hit harder than almost any other flyers in the game.
*I dunno why this happened, but it is sad.
*In an all-Jetbike army, Wave Serpents are unavailable. More importantly, you should be asking yourself why it exists next to the Fire Prism.
*Haven't we been dealing with Wraithlords having three or four weapons for two editions now? It is purely for flexibility; the Sun Cannon won't worry most vehicles, but the Scatter Lasers will. Whether you need them and/or have the spare points for them is another matter entirely. The important thing is that it does not need to take four weapons.
*It is pretty clear that, with their 18" range, they are intended as a close-assault/defensive unit on the fly. Counter-Attack only aids this, and if the old Defend fits into their fluff, then why doesn't Counter-Attack?
*I don't like it either, but it is likely because it would have forced them to change the Avenger Shuriken Catapult to 24" or be 3 shots, which would have been hard to balance - Assault 2 at 24" with semi-Rending craps all over Bolters, and even 18" Assault 3 would have been nasty given that they can run and shoot now. Guardians are much more than a heavy weapon team now, though, and in decent numbers will murder murder most things that get close.
*It is simple, it pays for its durability and movement. It is faster than a Trygon, far tougher than a Trygon - bolters can't hurt it, missiles need 4s to wound it, plasma needs 5s to wound it, etc - has the cheap option for an invulnerable save, offers handy shooting that can semi-reliably destroy most tanks at long range, or expensive but deadly anti-infantry shooting, and it is still darn nasty in combat. Compared to a Trygon, the Wraithknight is ace - and a Trygon is considered by most Tyranid players as one of the more appropriately priced monsters in the codex.
*I agree that it is silly. He can get an extra shot though, but it is certainly costly. Frankly, I've never found flakk missiles to be worth it in any codex so far.
*It is possible that GW haven't realized that Precision Shots/Strikes still allow for Look Out Sir rolls, even though they included it in their rules. Though of course the Vindicare FAQ disproves this theory. It is odd though, and could potentially see an Errata.
*Honestly, given their combat profiles/ranged weapons, most of them don't need the invulnerable save. They will have attached squads to soak up the shooting, and most can kill a wide breadth of enemy characters that do have AP2 weapons before they can strike. Take Karandras for example; with six attacks on the charge, some monsters will flat out die before they even get a chance to strike. The popular Chaos Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury on a Juggernaught can be monstered quite easily in one round before it can strike. As for something like a Daemon Prince with a daemon weapon, use the Avatar. Don't forget that many popular combat characters still only have AP3 melee weapons.
*I agree that Night Vision and Marksman's Eye aren't that great for him, but the others work just fine. Fast Shot for a two shot melta that is BS10? Crushing Blow to make him S7 base and help him against high Toughness enemies that aren't monsters (Monster Hunter) such as Necron Overlords? Monster Hunting for dealing with other monstrous creatures far more effectively? Disarming Strike to (more than likely) completely negate the nasty weapons that could actually pose a threat to the Avatar, such as Warscythes, Boneswords, Thunder Hammers and so on? They are hardly worthless.
*You do realize that no-scatter on deep strike, combined with not requiring line of sight to use their grenade attack, pretty much means you can hide them wherever you want? As Jump Infantry with Fleet, most vehicles are unlikely to get away from them. And if those vehicles actively move away from the Swooping Hawks and closer to your other anti-tank weapons, it is all the better for you. Not to mention that most people won't identify Swooping Hawks as that great of a threat, particularly if you have Fire Prisms and Dark Reapers or such units running around.
*They are useful for reserves manipulation, and can be made into a pretty hardcore character with certain wargear options at an incredibly low cost. They aren't a Chaos Lord in melee but that isn't the point of the model. If you have lots of reserves, they are invaluable - most other armies have to use up their valuable Fortification slot to get the same kind of bonus.
*The whole army? They don't "rely on it" - Warp Spiders sure as heck don't need it - but it is handy to have. Having semi-Rending on your basic Troops - that are still cheaper than Marines, when all is said and done - is ludicrous even despite their mostly mediocre ranges. There are ways around their short ranges, there are few ways around semi-Rending. Ten Guardians can make their points back in one fusillade against Marine armies.


So many negative nancies here in this thread. How many of you actually played eldar (not against them) in the last edition?

Eldar armies have parts that fit specific goals (so sorry it's not GK easymode) that go in specific orders. If you play eldar to its strengths then you can easily beat any book out pre this codex. All this book did was fix up units to be even better at what they do.

If you play like a stupid mon keigh with them then you're going to get pasted.

Swooping hawks are awesome at av due to their haywire. You can't expect the to turn two a land raider though, you need to... What's it called? Think ahead. If they're shooting at your hawks but not your D cannons, fire prisms, or other tasty treats then you're doing something wrong. If you don't have more important ground units to be shot than hawks you're doing something wrong.

Between scorpions, hawks, and spiders in your backfield you should give your opponent Plenty to worry about. Your 'line' units should be hitting their line when most threats are damaged/destroyed, and shouldn't have a problem to eliminate the stragglers.

Simple point being that if you don't play the army as its designed to be played then you're not going to win with it. You have 6+ turns to win, use them.

Agreed. And being a "difficult army to use" does not make them bad, it just means there is more to the army than "slap down, advance, fire, charge, repeat".

[UrielVentris]

^exactly.

Most people who meta their lists are worried about the easiest form of play for the biggest gain, and that's admirable in some way I'm sure. I'll say it bluntly. Eldar are a hard army to play. If you don't like it there's plenty if other armies to play.

I've faced parking lot armies w eldar and won no problem, nid swarms, meq everything, easymode gks. Eldar is probably one if the few armies that can take a build against any of these army types and have a chance at beating them. Granted I'm not a tournament gamer but I've played your guys nightmare lists places like bols pride themselves in making, and eldar can make a fight or beat every one that's been thrown out there. :-)

Gotta just be smart with your units and anythings possible ;-)

[Sainhann]

I dunno i feel Kelly let us down a bit here. Great fluff, average rules. Which would be fine if every other codex wasn't great or better

My biggest problem is i only have 2 HQ slots. And want an Avatar, a Farseer, A spiritseer and a Wraithseer

Just got to love the Force Composition Chart the most stupidest thing GW has ever done to 40K.

Screwed over the Orks, Eldar, Tau & Squats if they weren't already gone.

It is also the reason why Imperial Guard got the Platoon structure for troops.

[Learn2Eel]

^exactly.

Most people who meta their lists are worried about the easiest form of play for the biggest gain, and that's admirable in some way I'm sure. I'll say it bluntly. Eldar are a hard army to play. If you don't like it there's plenty if other armies to play.

I've faced parking lot armies w eldar and won no problem, nid swarms, meq everything, easymode gks. Eldar is probably one if the few armies that can take a build against any of these army types and have a chance at beating them. Granted I'm not a tournament gamer but I've played your guys nightmare lists places like bols pride themselves in making, and eldar can make a fight or beat every one that's been thrown out there. :-)

Gotta just be smart with your units and anythings possible ;-)

And this is why I prefer armies like Eldar where you actually have to think through your entire game. Mistakes are punished harshly, and knowing how to use everything in their specific role is key to success. In short, they are armies that actually make you feel like a proper general, not just someone playing a game on Easy or Normal difficulty. Hence why I have moved away from Heldrakes and am beginning to refuse to use them at all unless it is a big game.


Just got to love the Force Composition Chart the most stupidest thing GW has ever done to 40K.

Screwed over the Orks, Eldar, Tau & Squats if they weren't already gone.

It is also the reason why Imperial Guard got the Platoon structure for troops.

It mostly screws over armies that aren't elite, or consist of so many cheap models that they would actively be constrained by it on all possible fronts. For an army like Eldar, this is more a case of forcing the player to make as balanced an army as possible with a limited total. It also disallows most armies' from spamming their "broken" units. I see it more as a tool to help players learn how to build an effective army list.
I expect Tyranids to be able to 'ally' with themselves or feature the return of the "without number" rule in some capacity, but that is more because the complete lack of Allies limits them. Above all other codices, they need to be the best equipped to deal with any kind of army list, as they don't have an in-built redundancy (i.e. other codices) to solve any issues that pop up. I would expect them to have very strong anti-air capabilities - though flying Hive Tyrants with double brain-leech devourers tear apart most fliers in a single volley - as an example.

[Sainhann]

The claw itself is whopping two times more expensive. The exarch upgrade is 2 pts less than before. Basic scorps are 1 point up too.

So with the new Codex Eldar will be even putting fewer things onto the table do to all the point increases.

[Learn2Eel]

You pay for the good stuff though. A S6 AP2 weapon that isn't Unwieldy and strikes at WS5 I6 and four attacks on the charge is nasty as hell, particularly for a squad sergeant. Much like High Elves in Warhammer Fantasy, you pay to be a fragile elite army.

[Sainhann]

Sorry but ever think you were simply playing wrong? Eldar aren't a hammer army you want that play marines.

They once were a hammer army that is why they got nerf'ed to hell 15 years ago.

[Learn2Eel]

High Elves were the same. In fact, the similarities between the new books for both is striking. Slight cost reductions/increases across the board, a breadth of new special rules added in to emphasise and balance their elite/fragile/low numbers theme, focus on synergy and mixed forces rather than spam lists, require smart play to function. I really like that.

[Sainhann]

So many negative nancies here in this thread. How many of you actually played eldar (not against them) in the last edition?

Eldar armies have parts that fit specific goals (so sorry it's not GK easymode) that go in specific orders. If you play eldar to its strengths then you can easily beat any book out pre this codex. All this book did was fix up units to be even better at what they do.

If you play like a stupid mon keigh with them then you're going to get pasted.

Swooping hawks are awesome at av due to their haywire. You can't expect the to turn two a land raider though, you need to... What's it called? Think ahead. If they're shooting at your hawks but not your D cannons, fire prisms, or other tasty treats then you're doing something wrong. If you don't have more important ground units to be shot than hawks you're doing something wrong.

Between scorpions, hawks, and spiders in your backfield you should give your opponent Plenty to worry about. Your 'line' units should be hitting their line when most threats are damaged/destroyed, and shouldn't have a problem to eliminate the stragglers.

Simple point being that if you don't play the army as its designed to be played then you're not going to win with it. You have 6+ turns to win, use them.

With having few units on the table than any other army other than Space Marines if you are not winning by turn 3 you probably won't.

What Eldar Line units? Eldar really don't want to be in close combat range but they will be because of their inability to shoot at range and nearly every single Eldar figure on has a 12" range weapon.

Eldar vehicles are good but due to their point cost you will only be able to field a few of them. Unlike Marines you can give every single unit a cheap Rhino.

From what I have read nearly everything has gone up in Price and very few things have gone down in price.

You mentioned Swooping Hawks and yes they are very good at destroying vehicles, your opponent's will know this and should for go shooting at something else if they have something to protect from the SH's. They are more than likely going to Deep Strike and their armor is only 4+ and the unit is not going to be that big.

So yes if you Deep Strike them they will become target priority #1, so they will get shot to pieces.

[cebalrai]

That's a pretty good summary of the codex. It's not bad, certainly not horrible, but it's not *great*, and it should have been great. If I had to characterize it, I'd call it "rushed".

A lot of neat ideas - but not well thought out, not well balanced, almost no addressing of how much the 6e rules changed fundamental things about the Eldar, and too many "wouldn't it be cool if..." stuff thrown in that was clearly not thought through.. Compare that to the Tau Codex where you can see the influence of the 6e rules all over it. This codex feels like they ignored the changes in 6e and just through together stuff they thought would be cool.

The Eldar will still be a fun army to play, there is definitely some very cool stuff in here, and they certainly won't be at the bottom as far as overall power. But they will be mostly over-matched against the more powerful codexes.

I think "missed opportunity" and "rushed" is the best way to summarize it.


Compare to the Tau codex? Let me start with this.

Markerlights are stupid. And they're a lazy way to make an army work. And the fact that they were buffed tremendously in 6e doesn't tell me that the codex has 6e rules written all over it, it tells me they lazily turned up the dial on a power they knew would win by just dumbly ignoring defenses.

Can't make armor saves, can't make cover saves, and yeah let's put that all into a big pie plate and call it strong enough for 6e. THAT feels rushed to me.

[calamitycal]

With having few units on the table than any other army other than Space Marines if you are not winning by turn 3 you probably won't.

What Eldar Line units? Eldar really don't want to be in close combat range but they will be because of their inability to shoot at range and nearly every single Eldar figure on has a 12" range weapon.

Eldar vehicles are good but due to their point cost you will only be able to field a few of them. Unlike Marines you can give every single unit a cheap Rhino.

From what I have read nearly everything has gone up in Price and very few things have gone down in price.

You mentioned Swooping Hawks and yes they are very good at destroying vehicles, your opponent's will know this and should for go shooting at something else if they have something to protect from the SH's. They are more than likely going to Deep Strike and their armor is only 4+ and the unit is not going to be that big.

So yes if you Deep Strike them they will become target priority #1, so they will get shot to pieces.

Yup. I'm reading a lot of snark coming from people who don't seem to actually *play* Eldar.

Been playing them for 20 years. I remember when they WERE a hammer army (Falcon rushes FTW, lol) and preferred when they became a finesse army. Truth is, finesse isn't the right word though. I see that used a lot referring to Eldar and I find it inaccurate. Synergy is probably the better word.

But anyway, nobody is talking about wanting an easy button. But this codex missed so many opportunities to fix issues that the previous codex had, especially with 6e. They didn't for the most part and that's disappointing.

Doesn't mean the army is useless or that it sucks. It doesn't. Overall I'd say the new Codex is okay. It's far from great though so yea, after a log wait, and after seeing how much improved both CSM and Tau got (armies I also happen to play, so again saying that from actual experience), maybe it's not unreasonable for some Eldar players to express a little frustration.

[Learn2Eel]

With having few units on the table than any other army other than Space Marines if you are not winning by turn 3 you probably won't.

What Eldar Line units? Eldar really don't want to be in close combat range but they will be because of their inability to shoot at range and nearly every single Eldar figure on has a 12" range weapon.

Eldar vehicles are good but due to their point cost you will only be able to field a few of them. Unlike Marines you can give every single unit a cheap Rhino.

From what I have read nearly everything has gone up in Price and very few things have gone down in price.

You mentioned Swooping Hawks and yes they are very good at destroying vehicles, your opponent's will know this and should for go shooting at something else if they have something to protect from the SH's. They are more than likely going to Deep Strike and their armor is only 4+ and the unit is not going to be that big.

So yes if you Deep Strike them they will become target priority #1, so they will get shot to pieces.

Inability to shoot at range? Defender Guardians, Windriders, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders and Wraithguard are the only non-assault oriented infantry that have 12" guns for the most part. Defender Guardians shred most anything - hint, they average more or the same number of wounds against a 2+ or 3+ armoured monstrous creature as the equivalent squad size of rapid-firing Kabalite Warriors do - at short range and can then run back out of range after firing, placing an impetus on smart positioning as should be the Eldar way. Windriders and Warp Spiders both have "jetpack" moves to get out of range in the assault phase. Fire Dragons and Wraithguard effectively carry squad-wide meltaguns, with the former being able to run back out of range and the latter being so darn hard to kill/strong that they probably won't care as much. Most other units in the codex have 18" or greater ranges to keep out of the average assault range of most units, and can run after shooting to boot.

The problem here is that you are comparing a dedicated transport to a main battle tank. Wave Serpents should never be considered solely as a transport. Trust me, a lot of players would rather four expensive but nasty Wave Serpents that don't die easily as opposed to eight Rhinos that concede First Blood and victory points like no tomorrow and can do barely any damage. It depends on the army though; aside from Howling Banshees and Wraithblades, most of our assault units have their own ways to make it to combat, and small units of six Fire Dragons or Wraithguard can fit into Falcons or Wave Serpents and effectively be used as miniature devastators ferried around by tanks.

The same thing happened with High Elves. A few went up, most went down - you will find that most Eldar units went down, or rather, gained a whole heck of stuff to compensate if they did go up. Guardians have semi-Rending guns, better BS/WS/I, and cheaper options, for only a minimal points increase. Striking Scorpions went up by a tiny bit but now no longer have to pay for Infiltrate or Move Through Cover, and have gained both Fleet and Stealth as part of their basic make-up. Looking at units in a vacuum doesn't help, as many are naturally designed to work best with others. I keep mentioning them, but the example rings true; High Elves make a good comparison, as some units that look good but not great by themselves, such as White Lions, work fantastically with a Frostheart Phoenix. With Eldar, from what we can tell their commanders are more to do with this stuff, but that is before you actually consider the potential combos of hitting a unit in the same turn with two different units.

They are also exceptional at decimating light infantry, who are becoming more popular with the reintroduction of Cultists, greater emphasis on Fire Warriors and others making appearances in an edition where boots on the ground are key. They can deep strike without scatter; think about that for a moment, as it effectively allows you to pick what units will engage you unless you play on a board that features little terrain. Plus, if they are focusing on your cheap unit of Swooping Hawks - six of them is less than triple digits - you can laugh at them as your nearby Wraithguard or Fire Dragons move into position and land the killing blow anyway. Think of the army like that, and not in a vacuum, and they will probably be a lot more appealing.

[Learn2Eel]

Compare to the Tau codex? Let me start with this.

Markerlights are stupid. And they're a lazy way to make an army work. And the fact that they were buffed tremendously in 6e doesn't tell me that the codex has 6e rules written all over it, it tells me they lazily turned up the dial on a power they knew would win by just dumbly ignoring defenses.

Can't make armor saves, can't make cover saves, and yeah let's put that all into a big pie plate and call it strong enough for 6e. THAT feels rushed to me.

Pretty much exactly. Without Markerlights, the army is decent, but nowhere near as good. Markerlights are an excuse to remove rules that are intrinsic to the functionality of many units, such as not having to snap-fire at flyers with any unit you want, or ignoring cover saves with darn near any weapon you can find. You need markerlights to be an effective army, and they effectively allow you to point at a unit and remove it from the table each turn with almost no involvement from your opponent allowed. Its cool, and it promotes looking at your army with Markerlights as opposed to without, but it isn't fantastic rules design. Hero summed it up very well here (http://lkhero.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/so-how-about-that-tau.html).


Yup. I'm reading a lot of snark coming from people who don't seem to actually *play* Eldar.

Been playing them for 20 years. I remember when they WERE a hammer army (Falcon rushes FTW, lol) and preferred when they became a finesse army. Truth is, finesse isn't the right word though. I see that used a lot referring to Eldar and I find it inaccurate. Synergy is probably the better word.

But anyway, nobody is talking about wanting an easy button. But this codex missed so many opportunities to fix issues that the previous codex had, especially with 6e. They didn't for the most part and that's disappointing.

Doesn't mean the army is useless or that it sucks. It doesn't. Overall I'd say the new Codex is okay. It's far from great though so yea, after a log wait, and after seeing how much improved both CSM and Tau got (armies I also happen to play, so again saying that from actual experience), maybe it's not unreasonable for some Eldar players to express a little frustration.

I'm reading "snark" from everywhere. No one can definitively say with any real weight how this book will turn out competitively without some extensive play-testing.

I would disagree with your opinion of Chaos Space Marines, solely on the proviso that you don't feel Eldar have greatly improved as well. Aside from Emperors Children and perhaps Iron Warriors, it doesn't reward themed army lists at all. Competitively, it relies on the most broken unit released in a hardback codex yet. The Eldar codex looks to have much better internal balance, and competitively we can already see that Iyanden and Saim Han will at least feature, if not be popular. The Eldar Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices aren't tough picks because there are a lot of them - like with Chaos Marines - but because pretty much every single one of them is darned good.

[cebalrai]

Wait - what kind of horrible list did the tau player have if your bomber wasn't blown out of the sky on the turn it came in or your tank(s)? I can't think of an army better suited to annihilate this strategy better than the tau.


At the top of turn one most of my army was pretty much in his deployment zone. And because of how the battlefield was set up he couldn't focus on a single Wave Serpent so none were destroyed. I had a huge turn 2 and turn 3... he never got to fire across the map at me, I was in his face the whole time.

Halfway through the match he was grousing about the new Eldar codex being OP.

[Learn2Eel]

At the top of turn one most of my army was pretty much in his deployment zone. And because of how the battlefield was set up he couldn't focus on a single Wave Serpent so none were destroyed. I had a huge turn 2 and turn 3... he never got to fire across the map at me, I was in his face the whole time.

Halfway through the match he was grousing about the new Eldar codex being OP.

Coming from a Tau player, that must have been quite the laugh :D

[UrielVentris]

Learn2Eel nice to see another vet of the finesse army here. :)

You guys are right eldar used to be a hammer. 15 years ago. 15 years ago Internet wasn't even dial up and America online was brand new.

Eldar plays like chess, and you need to strategize your strikes accordingly. Someone was saying that hawks will be target number one once they land. That's fine, turn your tanks around so your line units of S6 aren't being targeted, or your D cannons are hitting rear armor. Shooting at hawks? Scorpions get closer with fewer casualties, your spiders are hitting side armor or troops and not being targeted.

Because of the fragility of eldar you truly need to force your opponent to hit your bishops sometimes so your pawns can get into place.

[cebalrai]

Coming from a Tau player, that must have been quite the laugh :D


It was really a huge mess in his backfield and a crazy battle in all.

- Guardians were assaulted a huge blob of blinded Kroot snipers in order to avoid getting shot at and then remained locked up with those Kroot for the rest of the game. He was trying that BS5 no-cover 20-man sniper crap...

- My Scorpion squad was instantly shot down to one (non-exarch) guy on turn one - and then that lone Scorpion managed to charge into the fray with the rest of my forces backing up the Guardians above, living to see the end of the game.

- My Swooping Hawk Exarch (no CC weapon) and one remaining Hawk ended up piling into the Kroot blob battle as well, followed by a bunch of his Fire Warrior stragglers. It was a mess but a lot of fun :)

- Yeah, two units tank shocked off the map at the same time with one Wave Serpent. They were tightly packed together for their overwatch stuff so it was easy.

- Warp Spiders are officially amazing. I'm going to try bringing two units of them next time.

-

Wave Serpent tank shocks are sweet. Even if Death or Glory is successful the guy goes squish on a 2+.



Learn2Eel nice to see another vet of the finesse army here. :)

You guys are right eldar used to be a hammer. 15 years ago. 15 years ago Internet wasn't even dial up and America online was brand new.

Eldar plays like chess, and you need to strategize your strikes accordingly. Someone was saying that hawks will be target number one once they land. That's fine, turn your tanks around so your line units of S6 aren't being targeted, or your D cannons are hitting rear armor. Shooting at hawks? Scorpions get closer with fewer casualties, your spiders are hitting side armor or troops and not being targeted.

Because of the fragility of eldar you truly need to force your opponent to hit your bishops sometimes so your pawns can get into place.


I've played Hawks lots of times and I've never had them killed as soon as they land. And now we don't have to worry about scatter so they're even safer.

[daboarder]

Wave Serpent tank shocks are sweet. Even if Death or Glory is successful the guy goes squish on a 2+.




:eek:

HS!

[DarkLink]

Only if they're stupid enough to Death or Glory.

[scadugenga]

I picked up the book today and have been reading, and re-reading as I get the time (toddler and infant will suck the free-time right out of you.)

Overall--I'm cautiously pleased with the book. I do feel, as has been suggested before, that Kelly didn't want to write it, and it suffers accordingly in the rules dept. But there are some throwback goodies from 2nd ed that make this feel more like an eldar book to me. (playing eldar since '89)

Fluff-wise, with some retconning (appears Eldrad's still alive and well now, instead of dead in a blackstone fortress after the 13th Black Crusade) and adding in references to the Dark Eldar, that Troke lifted everything almost verbatim from the 2nd ed codex. Not a terrible thing, necessarily, but nothing really new or original.

The clear winner for the "most improved unit" award goes to the Dark Reapers. Holy hell, the volume of pain they can dish out. And having the unit size pumped to 10. Forget flakk missiles. Get him a standard reaper launcher with krak (sorry..ahem "starshot, or whatever" missiles) and let some guardians work the aegis quad gun for anti air. Or get a Nightwing.

I'm annoyed with Mandiblasters. They should've remained +1 attack. Or reverted to true 2nd ed version with str. 4. A str 3 attack? Meh.

My biggest concern remains Guardians. While I love the idea of BS4 vypers an tanks--the only difference between a Guardian (essentially the "National Guard" of the eldar) and an Aspect Warrior (Full time regular military/special forces) is that an Aspect Warrior has a 1 point advantage on the Ld stat. Everything else is identical. Only the gear and certain special rules are different.

What?

Makes absolutely zero sense. And we pay a premium for it.

There are some really nasty combos and fun things you can do with the book, but it's certainly not an overwhelming "win" in the design department.

I've been playing Eldar since '89. I'm not "whining" about wanting an "instant win" button. I, like Defenestratus, (and again...odd we're on the same page..) see that there was room for much more elegant and simple improvements that would have made this a better book.

Hell, I'd even pay a premium to pick my psychic powers...

That being said--a quick mix of FW into the book makes for some sickening combos. The Nightwing remains the best flyer the eldar have. Vector Dancer, Supersonic, and a 4+ cover save without having to resort to jink/snap shots? Yes please.

[Learn2Eel]

Only if they're stupid enough to Death or Glory.

I can imagine some people surrounding models such as Daemon Princes to line up a tank shock, it certainly is possible, if situational. Would be funny; "I hit, I penetrated, now I just need to roll a 4+!" *other player rolls a 2+* "Sorry dude, squish."

[Sainhann]

Yup. I'm reading a lot of snark coming from people who don't seem to actually *play* Eldar.

Been playing them for 20 years. I remember when they WERE a hammer army (Falcon rushes FTW, lol) and preferred when they became a finesse army. Truth is, finesse isn't the right word though. I see that used a lot referring to Eldar and I find it inaccurate. Synergy is probably the better word.

But anyway, nobody is talking about wanting an easy button. But this codex missed so many opportunities to fix issues that the previous codex had, especially with 6e. They didn't for the most part and that's disappointing.

Doesn't mean the army is useless or that it sucks. It doesn't. Overall I'd say the new Codex is okay. It's far from great though so yea, after a log wait, and after seeing how much improved both CSM and Tau got (armies I also happen to play, so again saying that from actual experience), maybe it's not unreasonable for some Eldar players to express a little frustration.

Well I have been playing them since 1988 and spent years playing them without any vehicles and they were a Hammer army back then.

I fielded nearly 80-100 Guardians in nearly 15-20 units plus having units of Aspect Warriors and that was with fielding at least one of each of the Aspect Warriors Squads.

Today the Max number of units you can field is 17

2 HQ's
3 Elites
6 Troops
3 FA
3 Hvy

but due to the points cost you will be lucky to get 10-12 onto the table and more than likely less than 10.

Ever since the nerfing of Guardians back 15 years ago Eldar have had the worst Standard Infantry in the game and giving them BS4 and mini-rending is still not going to overcome their greatest weakness - that being their weapon only being 12" in range. Every other army is 24" in range and Tau is 30" in range and strength 5 as well.

So they remain the worst Infantry in the game. At best if an Eldar player did take them they will only be taking one and leaving them back to hold an objective so unless you move into range they are out of the fight.

For me the Codex is far to ****ing expensive and like the Dark Angels Codex I will pass.

I can always use a different set of rules or go back to 2nd/3rd Edition to when the armies were far more balance then they are today.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm curious, how much of the codex have you actually read?

[DarkLink]

I can imagine some people surrounding models such as Daemon Princes to line up a tank shock, it certainly is possible, if situational. Would be funny; "I hit, I penetrated, now I just need to roll a 4+!" *other player rolls a 2+* "Sorry dude, squish."

The Tank Shock mechanics simply kind of suck. It should be something awesome like 'every model the tank passes over must pass an Initiative test or take a Str ~10 hit', but then allow everyone to attempt Death or Glory at the expense of failing the I test if they fail to kill the tank.

[SeekingOne]

This codex feels like they ignored the changes in 6e and just through together stuff they thought would be cool.

My feeling exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[SeekingOne]

*Because no one else does, and if anything, it makes a lot more sense for Tzeentch Daemons to have this kind of mastery than Eldar - they kind of *are* psychic essence made real. Selecting your in-codex powers may have been ok, but then it would be too easy to spam certain combos; i.e. +2 armoured Wraithguard with a Spiritseer, +2 armoured and Shrouded Shining Spears/Windrider/Seer Councils with Shrouded, etc.
Fluff-wise, this is strictly incorrect imo: Tzeentcn daemons are chaotic in nature, and thus it's 100% reasonable for their power to be random. Eldar, on the other hand, are all about order and self-control - hence the Path and all that. Therefore, to me a Farseer is certainly more likely to focus his power in a very specific direction, perhaps at the expense of severely limiting the amount of that power.
As for combos, all those you mention are about Warlock powers. Warlock powers being random may be fine, but with Farseer it's downright stupid.


Would have also been hard to "balance" rules wise; how do they hit a zooming flyer and not be "zooming" themselves? There would have to be restrictions on it. In that sense, it is fair enough, though annoying;
I can't believe I'm reading this honestly. "Zooming" is just a word, nothing more. Fluff-wise, it can just say that Hawks are so fast that it's no problem for them to briefly catch up with an aircraft, slap on a few grenades and then break off. Rules-wise, it's precisely one line of text: "Intercept: a unit comprised entirely of models with this special rule may assault a zooming flyer. For the purposes of resolving melee attacks, treat the flyer as a skimmer that has moved flat out." The second sentence is not even needed strictly speaking. I can hardly think of anything that would've been easier to do than that. Except maybe giving Banshees their grenades, lol. And it's also so damn obvious that I still can't believe that they haven't done it.


*They don't cost more than most flyers, actually. Look at all the 6E codices. They really don't. The lack of defensive upgrades does suck, but that is the balance of them; they hit harder than almost any other flyers in the game.

Seriously? What about Tau codex where a fighter and a bomber cost 145 and 160 respectively, while having AV11?


*Honestly, given their combat profiles/ranged weapons, most of them don't need the invulnerable save.
By the same logic, Abbaddon also doesn't need inv save, yet he has one. Both fluff-wise and rules-wise Phoenix Lords represent personalities of at least similar magnitude, so I really don't see why they don't get the same treatment.

*Avatar* - Disarming strike might actually be good for him, as it might disable Force weapons.

[Popsical]

Moan, moan, moan...
...and why dont my space marines have lasers in their eyes?

Having flicked thru the dex, it seems pretty good. Sure its not necron, but thats bloodt great, we dont want another busted dex.
Codices are always gonna have sub par units and such. None ive seen in codex eldar seem pointless like say the pyrovore or most of the sisters wd dex.
Man up people, it seems theres far too many folk damning the dex before even trying it out.

[Mr Mystery]

Based on plenty enough games with the previous Codex, and noting that none of the previous fundamental problems were addressed in any meaningful way. Chroming irrelevant elements means nothing. It's like Kelly went out of his way not to actually fix anything that people had problems with, especially in the transition to 6E.

So the correct answer was 'I haven't actually tried to play this new codex, I'm just running my gums and spouting uninformed bollocks'.

Righto.

[Arkalid]

I, for one, think the Codex is a move towards the right direction. There are a few silly things left in the codex, like the Banshees not having grenades (can be overcome, though), but there aren't too many overtly bad choices. If anything, the Codex has a lot more hidden punch in it, as well as some surprising survivability (read shimmershield, ppl). Si yeah, it's a nice book, but requires a lot of wits to work with. And some lucky sixes won't hurt.

[Learn2Eel]

Fluff-wise, this is strictly incorrect imo: Tzeentcn daemons are chaotic in nature, and thus it's 100% reasonable for their power to be random. Eldar, on the other hand, are all about order and self-control - hence the Path and all that. Therefore, to me a Farseer is certainly more likely to focus his power in a very specific direction, perhaps at the expense of severely limiting the amount of that power.
As for combos, all those you mention are about Warlock powers. Warlock powers being random may be fine, but with Farseer it's downright stupid.


I can't believe I'm reading this honestly. "Zooming" is just a word, nothing more. Fluff-wise, it can just say that Hawks are so fast that it's no problem for them to briefly catch up with an aircraft, slap on a few grenades and then break off. Rules-wise, it's precisely one line of text: "Intercept: a unit comprised entirely of models with this special rule may assault a zooming flyer. For the purposes of resolving melee attacks, treat the flyer as a skimmer that has moved flat out." The second sentence is not even needed strictly speaking. I can hardly think of anything that would've been easier to do than that. Except maybe giving Banshees their grenades, lol. And it's also so damn obvious that I still can't believe that they haven't done it.


Seriously? What about Tau codex where a fighter and a bomber cost 145 and 160 respectively, while having AV11?


By the same logic, Abbaddon also doesn't need inv save, yet he has one. Both fluff-wise and rules-wise Phoenix Lords represent personalities of at least similar magnitude, so I really don't see why they don't get the same treatment.

*Avatar* - Disarming strike might actually be good for him, as it might disable Force weapons.

Tzeentch Daemons are by definition some of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy. Lords of Change are amongst the most knowledgeable entities in the galaxy, certainly the match or better of any Farseer. Their patron god, the being from which they draw their strength, is the god of knowledge (amongst other things). And you are trying to tell me that they, but not Eldar, should be random? The reality is, after what we saw with Ahriman/Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons, we could never expect Eldar to break the chain and select their powers.

I think you missed my point. How would you make a Jump Infantry unit that is already great against light infantry and other vehicles balanced if they could also assault flyers and reliably wreck ones that are 250+ points (i.e. Stormravens/Stormeagles) on average rolls? The cost of the unit would have had to soar, hence why they would have needed some limitation. As much as it might not make sense from a fluff perspective, I perfectly understand why they didn't do it. Otherwise, everyone would spam them to hell and then no-one would ever want to play Eldar for fear of losing their expensive flyers to cheap and mobile Infantry.

And have far worse firepower to boot? "Seriously", you forgot the Nephilim and the Dark Talon, as well as the Heldrake. How would you balance a fighter jet that fires four S8 AP2 shots that re-roll armour penetration rolls against other flyers and has Vector Dancer to boot without making it prohibitively expensive? Answer; you make it fragile, so that with Vector Dancer, it rewards smart maneuvering. If it cost less or had better armour with a similar price, people would be referring to it as the new Vendetta.

Abaddon costs more than all of them and has attached risks involved to boot. And unless you are playing Loyalists, he doesn't support your army as well either.
And again, most Phoenix Lords can wipe the floor with characters that would threaten them before they can strike, and ones that they can't, you should then avoid and shoot down.
Don't start that "they should have this" with me. Ahriman says hi.

Seriously, as a Chaos Space Marine player, your constant "why didn't we get this" gives me a very similar vibe to that release. And having gone through both books extensively, Eldar got by far the better end of the deal. Your codex isn't going to rely on a crutch unit to stay competitive, for one. If you actually sit down and take the time to play with it, you might actually find they surprise you. And if they don't, who cares? My Thousand Sons have seen the short end of the stick for two/three editions straight now, and I continue to play them without any remorse. I accept that they aren't at all competitive, but that hasn't stopped me from going tit-for-tat with tournament players.

[eldargal]

So the correct answer was 'I haven't actually tried to play this new codex, I'm just running my gums and spouting uninformed bollocks'.

Righto.
Precisely.

The old underlying issues either don't matter or, like overpriced weaponry, were addressed. We also finally got some accessible AP1 which is something that was lacking.

[Learn2Eel]

I, for one, think the Codex is a move towards the right direction. There are a few silly things left in the codex, like the Banshees not having grenades (can be overcome, though), but there aren't too many overtly bad choices. If anything, the Codex has a lot more hidden punch in it, as well as some surprising survivability (read shimmershield, ppl). Si yeah, it's a nice book, but requires a lot of wits to work with. And some lucky sixes won't hurt.


Precisely.

The old underlying issues either don't matter or, like overpriced weaponry, were addressed. We also finally got some accessible AP1 which is something that was lacking.

Yep.

[cebalrai]

Fluff-wise, this is strictly incorrect imo: Tzeentcn daemons are chaotic in nature, and thus it's 100% reasonable for their power to be random. Eldar, on the other hand, are all about order and self-control - hence the Path and all that. Therefore, to me a Farseer is certainly more likely to focus his power in a very specific direction, perhaps at the expense of severely limiting the amount of that power.
As for combos, all those you mention are about Warlock powers. Warlock powers being random may be fine, but with Farseer it's downright stupid.

I know, but that's a 6e issue not an Eldar one. It's like GW decided "we don't know how to balance psychic powers and we don't want players to always take the same one or two good ones so we're going to force you to roll on this chart."

[Learn2Eel]

I know, but that's a 6e issue not an Eldar one. It's like GW decided "we don't know how to balance psychic powers and we don't want players to always take the same one or two good ones so we're going to force you to roll on this chart."

The problem was that everyone in 5E constantly took the same powers over and over. Rune Priests always had JotWW and Living Lightning as a start, with one or two mixed in the fray, Space Marine Librarians always had Null Zone and whatever else looked decent, etc. I don't mind that GW tried to spice the game up with all of the random stuff, as it means the games are far less likely to be similar from one game to the next. Take the new Eldar codex for example; everyone would just take Doom, Fortune and Guide on their Farseers. Warlocks would always take whichever power suited a specific strategy, like Renewer in a monster-heavy list and Protect to make 2+ armoured Wraith units, and so on. From a fluff perspective, it does betray a lot, but Eldar are hardly the first army with the 6E treatment where this is the case.

[deaddice]

Just played a quick 1000 game with new dex against my friends orcs, I got anihilated in the end but it was on a razors edge for a while. Learned some interesting noob lessions with the new dex.

Some things I noticed;

Edit: Death mission loses a counter every phase so you can lose 6 counters before you can top up this made things very nail biting lol.

Battle focus is great, turn 1 I could shoot orcs and I went first.

Spirit seers didnt use one but I did notice he can use runes of battle so you can get some great powers for banshees.

Conceal is way better sure you have to cast it but once you are in cover you can get 3+ cover saves.

I would have done better if I had taken some deep strikers to wreak some back line havoc.

Warlock councils are only allowed in primary attachments so does that mean allied eldar cant take a warlock for their guardian squads?

[cebalrai]

Conceal is way better sure you have to cast it but once you are in cover you can get 3+ cover saves.



And this is one reason people are overly focusing on analyzing Guardians in isolation. 3+ cover saves or 2+ cover saves in ruins is kind of awesome for guardians.

[Mr Mystery]

I think people are worrying too much about the random psychic powers.

Warlocks are guaranteed the one power people always used, which is conceal. Offensive, you get Destructor.

The others are without exception, bloody good powers. Protect/Jinx in particular is pretty horrible. Range is pretty reasonable for its effect. Screws up Terminators a treat, effectively halving the effectiveness of their armour, and means Banshees go through them like a hit knife through butter.

Runes of Fate? Guaranteed Guide.... The others? Really hard to get a duff combination.

[Mr Mystery]

Dirty Trick time!!

Heavy Weapon platforms have a 3+....increasing to 2+ with a bit of Protect.... Closest model takes the hits until it's dead. So when you really need to weather some incoming fire, bung them (assuming you have two. If not, bung it) closest to your opponent, and pull off 'operation get behind the grav platform.....

[calamitycal]

So the correct answer was 'I haven't actually tried to play this new codex, I'm just running my gums and spouting uninformed bollocks'.

Righto.


I'm curious, how much of the codex have you actually read?

So to sum up, if someone posts a comment of concern in a thread entitled "Eldar Codex, What do you you think of it?" but haven't played the army yet or spent weeks combing through a codex that just came out, then they are spouting off.

But if someone comes to the defense of the codex but haven't played the army yet or spent weeks combing through the codex, that's perfectly valid.

The thread was posted asking people's impressions of the codex. OBVOUSLY nobody responding, not one person, has played it enough to make a solid conclusion (and again, the thread is asking what you think, not for a final verdict) but come on people, there are some valid issues with this codex, some lazy design, and some things that make absolutely no sense. That doesn't mean it sucks or that other codexes haven't had similar issues, but we're not talking about other codexes, we're talking about Codex Eldar.

The flier is over-priced, banshees suck, 4 guns on a very expensive model that can only shoot two, copy/paste autarch, Illic's sniper being vulnerable to look out sir, swooping hawks having no interaction with fliers, 12" range weapons, etc...these are potential (and very likely) problems and likely should have been addressed but weren't.

But hey, I haven't played 37 battles or read through the codex 89 times (what is the correct number for each by the way, just so I know when my opinion becomes valid) yet so maybe nobody should post in any threads asking for early impressions until they hit whatever threshold you all deem necessary.

[Mr Mystery]

Track it back.... Dude issued a rather childish 'c-' score to it. Not only did he fail to quantify this in any way, but then admits its based on never having actually played using the codex.

Discussion is good. Discussion is useful. However, now is much too early for anything like a conclusion.

The BS4 across the board is good, but does it offset the small size of a given army? Will certain units really need specific support or not? These are the things you can't know until the community has really got to grips with it.

[Learn2Eel]

So to sum up, if someone posts a comment of concern in a thread entitled "Eldar Codex, What do you you think of it?" but haven't played the army yet or spent weeks combing through a codex that just came out, then they are spouting off.

But if someone comes to the defense of the codex but haven't played the army yet or spent weeks combing through the codex, that's perfectly valid.

The thread was posted asking people's impressions of the codex. OBVOUSLY nobody responding, not one person, has played it enough to make a solid conclusion (and again, the thread is asking what you think, not for a final verdict) but come on people, there are some valid issues with this codex, some lazy design, and some things that make absolutely no sense. That doesn't mean it sucks or that other codexes haven't had similar issues, but we're not talking about other codexes, we're talking about Codex Eldar.

The flier is over-priced, banshees suck, 4 guns on a very expensive model that can only shoot two, copy/paste autarch, Illic's sniper being vulnerable to look out sir, swooping hawks having no interaction with fliers, 12" range weapons, etc...these are potential (and very likely) problems and likely should have been addressed but weren't.

But hey, I haven't played 37 battles or read through the codex 89 times (what is the correct number for each by the way, just so I know when my opinion becomes valid) yet so maybe nobody should post in any threads asking for early impressions until they hit whatever threshold you all deem necessary.

You might want to reevaluate your post. I was asking him/her an honest question because from the diction he/she has used thus far, they do not own the codex themselves and are judging it based on second-hand information.

As to your rant....clearly someone can't look both ways. You are making these claims as factual statements - the diction of "there are" and "'X' is over-priced" is particularly illuminating - yet chiding people for apparently suppressing any attempt at discussion. And if I remember correctly, you referred to the people that disagreed with your opinion as performing "snark".


Yup. I'm reading a lot of snark coming from people who don't seem to actually *play* Eldar.

So you sook about people defending the codex having a blind eye turned to them, despite implying that those same people you disagree with don't have the experience and judgement that you do, and expect us to believe that you think opinions are being suppressed by others? You might want to rethink what you just said. All you are doing is proving that you think little of the people that have disagreed with you, and trying to take the moral high ground to elevate your own position in the argument. Calm it down mate.

[Mr Mystery]

As for not playing Eldar.... I don't currently. But the codex is tempting me, which is at least 50% of a new codex point. After all, of I'm to start playing, I'll be paying more than someone applying a bit of spit and polish to an existing army.

And even if I don't start one (still got Daemons to assemble, let alone paint) I can certainly chip in with the units that I find most worrying now...

[calamitycal]

Track it back.... Dude issued a rather childish 'c-' score to it. Not only did he fail to quantify this in any way, but then admits its based on never having actually played using the codex.

Discussion is good. Discussion is useful. However, now is much too early for anything like a conclusion.

The BS4 across the board is good, but does it offset the small size of a given army? Will certain units really need specific support or not? These are the things you can't know until the community has really got to grips with it.

Fair enough, I shouldn't have used yor specific quote to illustrate my point. I agree giving the codex a grade at this juncture is way too early.

That said, I still see a lot of critism and negativity being thrown at people for posting concerns.

[Learn2Eel]

No one is criticising you or anyone else for having an opinion mate. Like with any forum though, you have to expect people will disagree with you.

[Mr Mystery]

All about how it's presented.

Banshees for instance. Given the right support, they're rock hard. Which taken by itself isn't a massive problem. However, compared to their stable mate Scorpions, who appear to function very nicely on their own, Banshees are indeed less appealing.

The naysayers are focussing solely on what they didn't get, and try to downplay what they did get. War Walkers for instance.... Well hello in built 5+ invulnerable....

[calamitycal]

You might want to reevaluate your post. I was asking him/her an honest question because from the diction he/she has used thus far, they do not own the codex themselves and are judging it based on second-hand information.

As to your rant....clearly someone can't look both ways. You are making these claims as factual statements - the diction of "there are" and "'X' is over-priced" is particularly illuminating - yet chiding people for apparently suppressing any attempt at discussion. And if I remember correctly, you referred to the people that disagreed with your opinion as performing "snark".

This is what I am talking about. Factual statements? I mean, I even put "potential" in bold and added the word likely. Not sure what else I should do, would it help if I added "IMO" before everything I wrote? I think that's the core issue here. People are reading way too much into what people are writing, assuming that because they post a concern that somehow they are stating it as fact.

So I'll be clear...nothing I've written in this thread is fact, it's all my opinion based on reading the codex and past experience playing Eldar. I've written both positive things and concerns. Some of it will turn out to be right, some of it will turn out to be wrong and of course there will also be things that none of us have even thought of yet!



So you sook about people defending the codex having a blind eye turned to them, despite implying that those same people you disagree with don't have the experience and judgement that you do, and expect us to believe that you think opinions are being suppressed by others? You might want to rethink what you just said. All you are doing is proving that you think little of the people that have disagreed with you, and trying to take the moral high ground to elevate your own position in the argument. Don't waste your own time, mate.

The snark comment was directed specifically at people posting snarky comments towards those who had concerns. Not those who were posting counterpoints. Look through the thread if you want to see what I mean. I haven't chastized anyone for disagreeing with me.

I have no issue with people disagreeing with me. I'm probably (hopefully!) wrong on more than a few of my concerns with the codex.

[calamitycal]

No one is criticising you or anyone else for having an opinion mate. Like with any forum though, you have to expect people will disagree with you.

That's not true. Perhaps you haven't (and I apologize for using your quote, I should have written the post on it's own) there has been a lot of snark and uncessary comments towards people who have been posting concerns. Nothing I wrote was in reference to people simply disagreeing with me. Have no issue with that and fully expect it.

Anyway, hoping to get some battles in this week. Will probably proxy some things until I paint up my wraithknight and wraightfighter just to test stuff out.

[Learn2Eel]

This is what I am talking about. Factual statements? I mean, I even put "potential" in bold and added the word likely. Not sure what else I should do, would it help if I added "IMO" before everything I wrote? I think that's the core issue here. People are reading way too much into what people are writing, assuming that because they post a concern that somehow they are stating it as fact.

So I'll be clear...nothing I've written in this thread is fact, it's all my opinion based on reading the codex and past experience playing Eldar. I've written both positive things and concerns. Some of it will turn out to be right, some of it will turn out to be wrong and of course there will also be things that none of us have even thought of yet!




The snark comment was directed specifically at people posting snarky comments towards those who had concerns. Not those who were posting counterpoints. Look through the thread if you want to see what I mean. I haven't chastized anyone for disagreeing with me.

I have no issue with people disagreeing with me. I'm probably (hopefully!) wrong on more than a few of my concerns with the codex.

No, I meant that you were saying others were suppressing opinions, when the wording of your own statements and your previous allusions were a bit over the top. Hence why I found it a bit funny that the rant was the result, and I thought you should try and calm it down a bit. Not a dig at you. Sorry about that. I've never really been good with my wording, especially when I've only had 5 hours sleep in the past two days.
Personally, I'm not actively disagreeing with the concerns raised, more looking at how to mitigate them. I.e. the flyer, it is soft like wet tissue paper, but we have reserves manipulation/vector dancer to combat that.

[Learn2Eel]

That's not true. Perhaps you haven't (and I apologize for using your quote, I should have written the post on it's own) there has been a lot of snark and uncessary comments towards people who have been posting concerns. Nothing I wrote was in reference to people simply disagreeing with me. Have no issue with that and fully expect it.

Anyway, hoping to get some battles in this week. Will probably proxy some things until I paint up my wraithknight and wraightfighter just to test stuff out.

Fair enough. For the record, I don't encourage any of that stuff regardless of who I agree with in regards to the discussion at hand. I didn't see it myself but if you feel that there was snark from people about that, then I am sorry to hear it and I apologise. For example, sometimes my wording slips a bit and I accidentally offend people, but I never intentionally say to someone "that is wrong", more I say "I disagree".

[calamitycal]

Fair enough. For the record, I don't encourage any of that stuff regardless of who I agree with in regards to the discussion at hand. I didn't see it myself but if you feel that there was snark from people about that, then I am sorry to hear it and I apologise. For example, sometimes my wording slips a bit and I accidentally offend people, but I never intentionally say to someone "that is wrong", more I say "I disagree".
It's all good man. We're all here because we're passionate about the hobby.

[mr_draken]

All about how it's presented.

Banshees for instance. Given the right support, they're rock hard. Which taken by itself isn't a massive problem. However, compared to their stable mate Scorpions, who appear to function very nicely on their own, Banshees are indeed less appealing.

The naysayers are focussing solely on what they didn't get, and try to downplay what they did get. War Walkers for instance.... Well hello in built 5+ invulnerable....

I think its unfair to compare banshees and scorpions, they both serve very different roles, Scorpions are infiltrators, are designed to do massive damage to large squads. Banshees are a scalpel, you hit in the right spot at the right time to do maximum damage. To be honest, if you are using banshees as tanking units, as CC monster units, and using them alone/unsupported. You are doing it wrong.

[cebalrai]

I think its unfair to compare banshees and scorpions, they both serve very different roles, Scorpions are infiltrators, are designed to do massive damage to large squads. Banshees are a scalpel, you hit in the right spot at the right time to do maximum damage. To be honest, if you are using banshees as tanking units, as CC monster units, and using them alone/unsupported. You are doing it wrong.


I have Harlequins and Banshees. I can't figure out why I'd take the Banshees when Harlies do the Banshee's job and then some.

[mr_draken]

I have Harlequins and Banshees. I can't figure out why I'd take the Banshees when Harlies do the Banshee's job and then some.

Harlequins ill admit compete with banshees for similar roles, comparing those 2 is fine, but i stand by not comparing banshees to scorpions.

[eldargal]

Yup. If Banshees get grenades (yes, unlikely) then they will have some uses. As it stands now unless you fight all your battles on boards with little to no terrain they will struggle to do anything and if they do there will be another unit that could have done it more efficiently.

[lattd]

I think half the issue with banshees is they have a new role of finishing off units that threaten any back row support, where as everyone still remembers the close combat spearhead they were.

[calamitycal]

I think half the issue with banshees is they have a new role of finishing off units that threaten any back row support, where as everyone still remembers the close combat spearhead they were.
The problem is that role is way to specialized even for Eldar to make them worth taking over other CC units. Lots of units can fill in for that role. Heck, storm guardians could be used to finish off an already hurt unit.

Banshees seem to be outshined by another unit (whether it be scorpions, harlies, or wraithblades) in the different CC roles. Still trying to figure out why one would take them over one of the other CC choices.

[eldargal]

That would be their role if they had grenades and could thus be sure if not striking and I1. I'd love nothing more than to find a use for Banshees, I defended them all through 5th edition but I'm just not seeing it.

[calamitycal]

That would be their role if they had grenades and could thus be sure if not striking and I1. I'd love nothing more than to find a use for Banshees, I defended them all through 5th edition but I'm just not seeing it.
Same here. I stripped the paint off my Eldar last year and I've been repainting my entire army ever since. The first unit I painted after my guardians were my Banshees. I want to defend them, I want to find a reason to use them, but right now there just isn't.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7123/7095356857_cdee3db479_b.jpg

I feel like Wraithblades have taken on the Banshee's former role, which normally was to take out high priority, heavily armored targets. And that would be fine if Banshees had some other new role. But right now I can't think of any that can't be filled MUCH better by other units.

[Sainhann]

And this is one reason people are overly focusing on analyzing Guardians in isolation. 3+ cover saves or 2+ cover saves in ruins is kind of awesome for guardians.

Until you come up against weapons that allow no cover saves, Flamers, large pie-plate weapons etc...

There you are thinking great my Guardians are at 3+ and they are on this objective, but then here comes a unit with Flamers and so much for that cover save.

[MajorWesJanson]

I started a list on G+

Why don't farseers have ways to mitigate random psychic powers?
Because no one does.
Why don't swooping hawks interact with flyers?
Would have been fluffy maybe, but assaulting fliers or vector striking fliers or something similar would introduce a lot of complexity and rules precedents for a marginal result.
Why don't our flyers have ANY defense upgrades whatsoever and cost MORE than most flyers?
Because they have Vector Dancer and stronger weapons loadouts than most other fliers (Vendetta is badly underpriced and overarmored, not fair to use as a comparison). The Eldar planes are priced appropriately compared to most of the rest of the "fair" fliers. (Night Scythe, Vendetta, Baledrake don't count)
Why do banshees just plain suck?
Because it is a Phil Kelly book. There are always winners- Long Fangs and Runepriests, Venoms/Trueborn, Baledrakes, Wave Serpents/Warp Spiders, and losers- Skyclaws, Mandrakes, Warp Talons and Mutilators, and Howling Banshees.
Why does the falcon even exist when the wave serpent is better in every way?
Because people would complain if the unit went away entirely, and they have a model for it.
Why does the wraithknight have 4 weapons but can only shoot two?
Because sometimes you have to make choices on what weapons to fire, like on non-fast vehicles that move.
Why do Dire Avengers have, of all things, counter attack?
Because their role is to be advancing, and at risk of being assaulted because they are closer to the enemy. Defend/defensive grenades would reduce damage they took on a charge, counterattack increases the damage they do back, especially at I5 which strikes before many opponents.
Why do shuriken catapults still suck with their 12" range when the average charge distance is 13" and rapid fire weapons are now move and fire?
Because Guardians are meant to guard critical points and use heavy weapons to support, or use vehicles to close to close range and shoot. run/shoot or shoot/run with fleet also gives them some flexability, as do warlocks with conceal.
Why in the hell is the wraithknight so bloody expensive?
Because a S10 T8 Jump MC with 6 wounds and a pair of heavy wraithcannons base should not be cheap.
Why is the Dark Reaper Exarch the only one thats able to get Flakk missiles?
Warwalkers can too.
Why does Illic have a badass gun but still only wound on 4's and is still vulnerable to Look Out Sir? (Looking at you vindicare)
Because all snipers (bar the Vindicare) have to deal with the same issues, and the Vindicare trades more lethality for an inability to hide amongst a unit for protection.
Why do the Phoenix lords still have super-expensive costs and most don't have invulnerable saves?
2+ save and ability to hide in units, plus sheer lethality needs something to balance it. Challenges are not much risk either, as most are superior to a majority of potential challengers.
Why can't the Avatar get battle fortune exarch power - but can get 4 that are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS to him?
Why should the Avatar be able to improve it's daemon 5++ save when no Chaos daemons can either?
Why do swooping hawks even have haywire grenades when they will get blown off the table the second they land?
Because they are not guaranteed to be blown off the table? And haywire grenades are useful?
Why is the Autarch literally copy and pasted out of the old book? Did PK not get the message that the Autarch is horrible?
Is guaranteed reserve manipulation and a handy toolbox of weapon options not useful?
Why does the whole army rely on rolling 6's to do well?
Because it is a simple mechanic with decent odds of going off, especially on multiple rolls? And barring stat tests, what army doesn't do well by rolling many 6s?

[Caitsidhe]

There really is no reason for anyone to get bent out of shape over the Codex. It is a typical Games Workshop product. The rules rarely seem to represent the fluff (often go contrary to it). They lack common sense. Some units work awesome and even more potent in weird un-fluffy combinations. Good units become mediocre or bad. Bad units or "new" units become awesome. Most mediocre things stay the same. The new Eldar book is not that different from the old Eldar book in what it can do, just looks a little different in how it does it. Eh.

We have already seen the rise of other model companies. It is only a matter of time before we (and I've considered it myself) see the rise of 3rd Party RULES companies, who generate a tabletop rules set (probably on Kickstarter) specifically for "use" with Games Workshop (and other like-scale) miniatures which is worded correctly to be untouchable legally. Said rules will <gasp> be strangely balanced with calculated points systems and seem to cover all the factions at the same time. :) Until then we just have to be lazy and use whatever they release and hope for the best.

[Sainhann]

All about how it's presented.

Banshees for instance. Given the right support, they're rock hard. Which taken by itself isn't a massive problem. However, compared to their stable mate Scorpions, who appear to function very nicely on their own, Banshees are indeed less appealing.

The naysayers are focussing solely on what they didn't get, and try to downplay what they did get. War Walkers for instance.... Well hello in built 5+ invulnerable....

They once had a 2+ Invulnerable to shooting.

In 6th Edition they are a great unit because they can target things that are at more than 12 inches. But you would still be better to put them behind some cover because a 4+ is better than 5+.

[Mr Mystery]

Careful Caitsidhe. It'll turn you blind...

[Sainhann]

I think half the issue with banshees is they have a new role of finishing off units that threaten any back row support, where as everyone still remembers the close combat spearhead they were.

Yes that is the job for the Banshee's in 6th Edition.

I.E. sit behind your large unit of Guardians that are sitting on an objective and then charged into close combat when those Guardians are assaulted in Close Combat.

We don't have any vehicle that will allow assaults so that means they would have to foot slogged their way across the board, which against most other armies means that the chances of a squad of 10 getting across the board with all 10 models is slim to none.

An Eldar Army will just not have enough units on the table usually 8-10 tops so your opponent really can work at killing them off.

[Mr Mystery]

They once had a 2+ Invulnerable to shooting.

In 6th Edition they are a great unit because they can target things that are at more than 12 inches. But you would still be better to put them behind some cover because a 4+ is better than 5+.


Yes. And in 2nd edition many other thins were different. And having face many Eldar armies during 2nd Ed.... Only the pilot had the 2+. Tonk it in the legs, or anywhere else and they toppled.

[calamitycal]

Yes. And in 2nd edition many other thins were different. And having face many Eldar armies during 2nd Ed.... Only the pilot had the 2+. Tonk it in the legs, or anywhere else and they toppled.

Yea and it didn't work in CC. In a lot of ways that shield was pretty well balanced. A lot of non-Eldar players hated it but I think more than anything it gave some Eldar players a sense of overconfidence in Walkers.

That said, I think Walkers got upgraded in this codex. BS4 alone is a big improvement since it means you don't need a Farseer guide to babysit them. Giving them AA is a little expensive, maybe too expensive, but overall I think we'll be seeing more war walkers on battlefield.

[Sainhann]

Yes. And in 2nd edition many other thins were different. And having face many Eldar armies during 2nd Ed.... Only the pilot had the 2+. Tonk it in the legs, or anywhere else and they toppled.

Actually just get into Close combat with it and it was dead, though it would blast away until that happen. Very rarely did I ever have it last to the end of a game.

[rle68]

Defenestratus

you have very little to say that isnt entirely negative in every way.. all you do is complain about what can happen and what will happen i can counter anything you throw on the table the same way .. my god do you own stock in tampax?

illic an vindicare.. same holds true for anyone duh.. your point is unnecessary and need not be here
why dont swooping hawks interact with flyers.. your playing flyhammer 40k now werent you told..
why is the WK so expensive.. are you serious? maybe you should go read his stat lines again and them come back and tell me something that can kick in the side of any armored vehicle in the game while shooting anything in the game deader then horse manure should cost less..

Why do swooping hawks even have haywire grenades when they will get blown off the table the second they land?... take a page from your own less then sagely advice and accept the if this then that may happen advice you gave someone.. nothing is guarenteed

Why does the wraithknight have 4 weapons but can only shoot two?.. my favorite complaint of yours yet.. answer is he doesnt maybe if you had read a bit closer he has 2 weapons you can buy more but why would you?

i can go on and on but i think my point has been made

[rle68]

Until you come up against weapons that allow no cover saves, Flamers, large pie-plate weapons etc...

There you are thinking great my Guardians are at 3+ and they are on this objective, but then here comes a unit with Flamers and so much for that cover save.

pie plate weapons dont ignore cover saves only flamer templates do.. just fyi

if you let units with flamers get to your guardians your doing something wrong

and btw there may be pie plates that do ignore covers but they are army specific if im not mistaken

[rle68]

So to sum up, if someone posts a comment of concern in a thread entitled "Eldar Codex, What do you you think of it?" but haven't played the army yet or spent weeks combing through a codex that just came out, then they are spouting off.

But if someone comes to the defense of the codex but haven't played the army yet or spent weeks combing through the codex, that's perfectly valid.

The thread was posted asking people's impressions of the codex. OBVOUSLY nobody responding, not one person, has played it enough to make a solid conclusion (and again, the thread is asking what you think, not for a final verdict) but come on people, there are some valid issues with this codex, some lazy design, and some things that make absolutely no sense. That doesn't mean it sucks or that other codexes haven't had similar issues, but we're not talking about other codexes, we're talking about Codex Eldar.

The flier is over-priced, banshees suck, 4 guns on a very expensive model that can only shoot two, copy/paste autarch, Illic's sniper being vulnerable to look out sir, swooping hawks having no interaction with fliers, 12" range weapons, etc...these are potential (and very likely) problems and likely should have been addressed but weren't.

But hey, I haven't played 37 battles or read through the codex 89 times (what is the correct number for each by the way, just so I know when my opinion becomes valid) yet so maybe nobody should post in any threads asking for early impressions until they hit whatever threshold you all deem necessary.

well obviously you havent read all you cliam to have or played all you want cus in one aspect your dead wrong.. """" 4 guns on a very expensive model that can only shoot two""" the WK does not come with 4 guns it comes with 2 if you buy two more then that your own problem dont make it the models because of your lack of reading comprehension

[calamitycal]

well obviously you havent read all you cliam to have or played all you want cus in one aspect your dead wrong.. """" 4 guns on a very expensive model that can only shoot two""" the WK does not come with 4 guns it comes with 2 if you buy two more then that your own problem dont make it the models because of your lack of reading comprehension

That is a good point. You seem a little angry though and ignored my other points. Relax man.

Anyway, one thing I was thinking was perhaps taking a CC wraithknight with dual starcannons. Could be a very versatile unit to have the sword, the shield, and 4 STR 6 AP2 shots. It does bring his point cost up to 290 though, so not sure that's worth it.

[rle68]

now i have read all 17 plus pages and see a lot if whining and little of people looking at the positives

fire dragons cost a bit more now.. true... what did they get for it? the ability to move, shoot and run away or run and shoot to get in range and a 3+ armor save.. is that worth the 30 some odd points increase .. jury is out on that

wraith guard as troops at number of 5 with spirit seer at 70 points ...still hefty points increase on seer but seer has more options..i have 15 WG in my box so looking at them as a viable option

falcons area bit better with 3 shots now with a bs of 4 might see the rise of the dead falcon again who knows

having to roll for powers.. no im not happy on that one does it make the entire codex a c- or d- as some one said.. hell no

never had use for phoenix lords so i wont comment on that..

banshees.. well in 4th banshees ruled all but dark eldar wyches with combat drugs now.. yes they seem neglected.. WB and scorpions seem a better unit

wave serpent.. 120 points with a TL weapon upgrade? maybe.. not sold yet

guardians with 2 weapon platforms and a bs of 4 thats a good improvement

the wraithknight...240 points... more then some ICs...2 long range death weapons jump MC str 10 I5 but HOWMC. ugh..T8 so all those krak missle melta guns and the other stuff you all have been b*tching about still need 4's to even wound it.. plus 6 wounds .. few units in that price range can even touch it in cc

bolter fire.. forget it

there were some good upgrades to the dex and some things im not happy about but in 17 pages or 18 now i see alot more negativity then should be here

[rle68]

That is a good point. You seem a little angry though and ignored my other points. Relax man.

Anyway, one thing I was thinking was perhaps taking a CC wraithknight with dual starcannons. Could be a very versatile unit to have the sword, the shield, and 4 STR 6 AP2 shots. It does bring his point cost up to 290 though, so not sure that's worth it.


yes.. came out a bit stronger than intended apologies if it came across as a horses backside

290 for a WK.. im good at 240 anythign else ill have to play mine a bit and see

[bfmusashi]

For me this codex marks the return of the glorious Death Mission Farseer. Know his meteoric decent into your lines and despair!

[Defenestratus]

Defenestratus

you have very little to say that isnt entirely negative in every way.. all you do is complain about what can happen and what will happen i can counter anything you throw on the table the same way .. my god do you own stock in tampax?

illic an vindicare.. same holds true for anyone duh.. your point is unnecessary and need not be here
why dont swooping hawks interact with flyers.. your playing flyhammer 40k now werent you told..
why is the WK so expensive.. are you serious? maybe you should go read his stat lines again and them come back and tell me something that can kick in the side of any armored vehicle in the game while shooting anything in the game deader then horse manure should cost less..

Why do swooping hawks even have haywire grenades when they will get blown off the table the second they land?... take a page from your own less then sagely advice and accept the if this then that may happen advice you gave someone.. nothing is guarenteed

Why does the wraithknight have 4 weapons but can only shoot two?.. my favorite complaint of yours yet.. answer is he doesnt maybe if you had read a bit closer he has 2 weapons you can buy more but why would you?

i can go on and on but i think my point has been made

Fine - you want some positivity?

I like the Avatar except for the dumb exarch powers they let him take (save disarm which is probably the only one mine will pay points for)
War walkers are nice (and yes I know they can get flakk missiles - a whole squad of them will be 330 points though and what I meant is why can't the rest of the Dark Repaers in the squad get flakk missiles if the exarch can?)
Wave serpents are insane - return of mechdar ftw!
Vypers are worth taking now, if it weren't for the fact that....
Warp spiders are insane! Only regret here is that they didn't get new models)
Wraithscythes and blades are great - albeit pricey. The hardest decision I'm having to make in this book is whether to put swords or axes on my WB's.
Fire Prisms are awesomely multi-functional in an army that is rife with overspecialization.
Shining Spears are usable finally.
Jetbikes are nice.

As for a list of stuff that I think is about the same. Again your mileage may vary.
Guardians - a nice upgrade on the damage with their catapults but their price increase and the existing range perma-nerf just makes these guys benchwarmers to me.
Dire Avengers - Didn't get worse but really didn't get better either. Loss of the old bladestorm is going to really hurt more than I think people realize (although I'm glad that I wont ever have the need to skip a round of shooting) and combined with a very small price increase and expensive exarchs, I think its a wash personally.
Scorpions - I ... well... I'll still use these guys. The nerf to mandihats doesn't hurt them as much as it hurts the autarch honestly. Against T4 units, the number of wounds caused by old vs new mandihats is the same. The exarch's fist is really the only option worth taking unfortunately and it comes in at a hefty, hefty price tag. The addition of stealth is great though. All this good stuff is of course offset by a price increase that I don't feel was warranted.
Wraithlords are ok. The downgrade to their Strength kind of hurts as I can't really see a reason to pay for a sword that gives me only one re-roll in combat and upgrades to Str9 which still only instagibs T4 characters.
Phoenix Lords are a wash personally. I'm going to use the hell out of Asurmen in my 50 Dire avenger list that might include that hemlock fighter just for the LD rerolls - but I'm still probably not going to use Jain Zar or Baharroth or Fuegan.

My previous list has all the "negativity" in it.


Why does the wraithknight have 4 weapons but can only shoot two?.. my favorite complaint of yours yet.. answer is he doesnt maybe if you had read a bit closer he has 2 weapons you can buy more but why would you?


I just don't get why there are shoulder weapons on the model period. They are completely useless so unless they're going to make a rule that he can fire them all, why include them in the model? It just doesn't make sense and makes you ask the question.

[calamitycal]

now i have read all 17 plus pages and see a lot if whining and little of people looking at the positives

fire dragons cost a bit more now.. true... what did they get for it? the ability to move, shoot and run away or run and shoot to get in range and a 3+ armor save.. is that worth the 30 some odd points increase .. jury is out on that

wraith guard as troops at number of 5 with spirit seer at 70 points ...still hefty points increase on seer but seer has more options..i have 15 WG in my box so looking at them as a viable option

falcons area bit better with 3 shots now with a bs of 4 might see the rise of the dead falcon again who knows

having to roll for powers.. no im not happy on that one does it make the entire codex a c- or d- as some one said.. hell no

never had use for phoenix lords so i wont comment on that..

banshees.. well in 4th banshees ruled all but dark eldar wyches with combat drugs now.. yes they seem neglected.. WB and scorpions seem a better unit

wave serpent.. 120 points with a TL weapon upgrade? maybe.. not sold yet

guardians with 2 weapon platforms and a bs of 4 thats a good improvement

the wraithknight...240 points... more then some ICs...2 long range death weapons jump MC str 10 I5 but HOWMC. ugh..T8 so all those krak missle melta guns and the other stuff you all have been b*tching about still need 4's to even wound it.. plus 6 wounds .. few units in that price range can even touch it in cc

bolter fire.. forget it

there were some good upgrades to the dex and some things im not happy about but in 17 pages or 18 now i see alot more negativity then should be here

I'm actually not sold on the Wraithguard as troops thing, having to use an HQ spot on what looks to be a fairly weak (albeit cheap) HQ choice. If you're going to take an HQ for the purpose of making Wraithguard troops, you're probably also going to take them in groups of 10 anyway. On the whole requiring the HQ to make them troops feel like a nerf, but it's not a big one and in a Wraith Army it'd be fine.

Agreed on the Phoenix Lords. I've never really used them (they're just TOO focused for an HQ slot) but I think they might be more viable now, if only because the Eldar army doesn't seem to NEED the same level of Farseer support it did before, specifically guide.

It's funny but when I've been making lists I've been making a lot without a Farseer. In the previous edition I almost never did that. So that might be a good thing if those lists work out.

[calamitycal]

I just don't get why there are shoulder weapons on the model period. They are completely useless so unless they're going to make a rule that he can fire them all, why include them in the model? It just doesn't make sense and makes you ask the question.

Well it does allow you to take the sword/shield option and then take two shoulder guns. That's expensive though (makes him 280-290) but it's a build that works with the shoulder weapons. You could also take the suncannon and one shoulder gun, but now you're at 300 points. I think the bigger issue is the points costs (feels like replacing the guns with the sword/shield should just be a trade rather than extra points) rather than the "4 weapon" thing.

But yes, if you're taking his stock weapons there is little reason to take the shoulder guns.

[rle68]

Fine - you want some positivity?

I like the Avatar except for the dumb exarch powers they let him take (save disarm which is probably the only one mine will pay points for)
War walkers are nice (and yes I know they can get flakk missiles - a whole squad of them will be 330 points though and what I meant is why can't the rest of the Dark Repaers in the squad get flakk missiles if the exarch can?)
Wave serpents are insane - return of mechdar ftw!
Vypers are worth taking now, if it weren't for the fact that....
Warp spiders are insane! Only regret here is that they didn't get new models)
Wraithscythes and blades are great - albeit pricey. The hardest decision I'm having to make in this book is whether to put swords or axes on my WB's.
Fire Prisms are awesomely multi-functional in an army that is rife with overspecialization.
Shining Spears are usable finally.
Jetbikes are nice.

As for a list of stuff that I think is about the same. Again your mileage may vary.
Guardians - a nice upgrade on the damage with their catapults but their price increase and the existing range perma-nerf just makes these guys benchwarmers to me.
Dire Avengers - Didn't get worse but really didn't get better either. Loss of the old bladestorm is going to really hurt more than I think people realize (although I'm glad that I wont ever have the need to skip a round of shooting) and combined with a very small price increase and expensive exarchs, I think its a wash personally.
Scorpions - I ... well... I'll still use these guys. The nerf to mandihats doesn't hurt them as much as it hurts the autarch honestly. Against T4 units, the number of wounds caused by old vs new mandihats is the same. The exarch's fist is really the only option worth taking unfortunately and it comes in at a hefty, hefty price tag. The addition of stealth is great though. All this good stuff is of course offset by a price increase that I don't feel was warranted.
Wraithlords are ok. The downgrade to their Strength kind of hurts as I can't really see a reason to pay for a sword that gives me only one re-roll in combat and upgrades to Str9 which still only instagibs T4 characters.
Phoenix Lords are a wash personally. I'm going to use the hell out of Asurmen in my 50 Dire avenger list that might include that hemlock fighter just for the LD rerolls - but I'm still probably not going to use Jain Zar or Baharroth or Fuegan.

My previous list has all the "negativity" in it.



I just don't get why there are shoulder weapons on the model period. They are completely useless so unless they're going to make a rule that he can fire them all, why include them in the model? It just doesn't make sense and makes you ask the question.

and i can agree with alot of your comments.. dont know why it gives you spots for 4 guns.. unless your playing unlimited points then maybe or some apoc games which .. not alot of that around my hood

[rle68]

I'm actually not sold on the Wraithguard as troops thing.... im converting my wave serpents to wraith serpents what used to hold fire dragons now will hold WG...

i looked at my WK model and if i can get 3 more heads im going to use the WK head on the cockpits of my wraithserpents to make em look cooler lol

[davel]

I am mostly o.k. With the codex. But have spotted some things that make me feel it may not have had the the full attention it deserves

The avatar getting night fight. Am I missing something

The eldar command trait number 6. Now there're are 3 unis that benefit,spiders,wraith knights and aunt arches with the right war gear.
If you look at the eldar jet bike description there is a mention of deep strike in its workings, the original flyers had it as well but then lost it. In a rule rejig. The land speeder has it an I was hoping the viper would get it. But it did not. It was if deep strike would be a big feature but then was deemed to powerful. I guess to make jump packs more competitive.
It just feels this rule got left behind.

Oh and yes I know it's fluffy but is any one actually going to give their fire dragon exarch crushing blow?

Dave l

[legalsmash]

They once were a hammer army that is why they got nerf'ed to hell 15 years ago.

Twenty years go I could use nagsh in herohammer and there were armor modifiers...

[davel]

Have just spotted the copy and paste autarch syndrome. The new reaper range finder should be part of his kit but it is not in his entry

Dave l

[RGilbert26]

Just in case anyone is interested and perhaps try to get this topic shifted elsewhere, here's my newly finished Wraithknight, enjoy.

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i394/RGilbert26/WK_zps565b91df.png

[calamitycal]

It seems like there is somewhat of a trend (not 100% mind you) of some early opinions. All of this is conjecture of course until the army is played a bunch.

Likely Good/Great
-BS4 on tanks, vypers, walkers is great. Would be great on Guardians too if not for 12" range. Adding AA to Walkers is probably too expensive though.
-Warp Spiders, Shining Spears, Harlequins, Scorpions are still viable with Warp Spiders and Shining Spears perhaps being the most improved.
-Most of the HQ choices other than the Autarch seem good.
-Wraithguard and Wraithblades will likely be very good.
-Jetbikes are great.
-Dark Reaper could be very good, shame only the exarch gets an AA option though.
-Although expensive, Wave Serpents seem really good.


Bad/Neutral/Unsure
-Banshees are ignored and aren't likely to be useful without an errata.
-Wraithfighter might be too vulnerable, esp. for the points cost. Could pack a punch though.
-Wraightknight might be too expensive for what he does (he's still likely pretty good) - I still think he looks like a giant Guardian rather than a Wraith construct though.
-12" range really hurts.
-Swooping Hawks seemed to still be under-powered.
-Copy/paste Autarch, jury is still out on him though.
-Falcon doesn't really fit in anymore. Not that it's bad, just way too many better HS options + Wave Serpents.
-Warlord powers seem hit or miss.
-Nerf to runes kinda stinks.
-Some odd points costs increases (in a book that was already expensive), somewhat offset by weapon point decrease, but not in all cases.




I'm sure I missed some things, but that's what stands out to me. YMMV.

[calamitycal]

Just in case anyone is interested and perhaps try to get this topic shifted elsewhere, here's my newly finished Wraithknight, enjoy.

Nicely done. Did you magnetize the weapons/arms?

[cebalrai]

I'm tired of people saying mandiblasters is a nerf. It's a buff. Auto-hitting MEQ with S3 is better than a S4 normal attack. It just is. Math matters.

Oh and killing something on I10 doubles as fantastic defense.

[calamitycal]

I'm tired of people saying mandiblasters is a nerf. It's a buff. Auto-hitting MEQ with S3 is better than a S4 normal attack. It just is. Math matters.

Oh and killing something on I10 doubles as fantastic defense.
Scorps aren't really anti-meq but I'll concede the mandiblasters are fine. Updated previous post.

[scadugenga]

I'm tired of people saying mandiblasters is a nerf. It's a buff. Auto-hitting MEQ with S3 is better than a S4 normal attack. It just is. Math matters.

Oh and killing something on I10 doubles as fantastic defense.

It's hammer of wrath for scorpions. It's meh at best. I'd rather have that extra powerclaw attack on the exarch than an auto hit str3 ap- attack.

I am very pleased that they fixed chainsabres though. It was the one piece of Scorp war gear I wanted to,take, but wouldn't do to how craptacular it was in the old dex.

[cebalrai]

All this stuff about wraithguard troops... I'm going to run five Guardian/Storm Guardian serpents and then line up Fire Prisms and WW squads to cover them along with all those nice TL BS4 Serpents firing during disembarkation. Bright Lance the fool out of heavy armor and then throw a hundred BS4 rending shots at whatever is running around while my Warlocks strip their stealth/shrouded as needed.


It's hammer of wrath for scorpions. It's meh at best. I'd rather have that extra powerclaw attack on the exarch than an auto hit str3 ap- attack.

I am very pleased that they fixed chainsabres though. It was the one piece of Scorp war gear I wanted to,take, but wouldn't do to how craptacular it was in the old dex.


Well I'd rather have all scorpions wielding Dire Swords but that doesn't matter. The fact is the +1 attack turned into a S3 auto-hit. You can say it's meh if you want but then you must also say that having an extra attack was bad. The change to the I10 S3 hit was a buff because it's more killy and it hits before the enemy can have a chance to attack, thereby reducing the attacks Scorps have to face.

[Mr Mystery]

Exarch may have lost his extra attack, but now goes in I order with a power fist. I count that as a saucy gain. That isn't a specialist weapon? So on the Claw, you've lost precisely nothing, and gained a S3 auto hit......

[calamitycal]

I'm tired of people saying mandiblasters is a nerf. It's a buff. Auto-hitting MEQ with S3 is better than a S4 normal attack. It just is. Math matters.

Oh and killing something on I10 doubles as fantastic defense.
Actually, I just did some math and 9 Scorpions with Chainsabres plus an Exarch with the Claw attacking MEQ will get about 6.77 kills. If Mandiblasters gave an extra attack, they'd get 7.75 kills. It's the additional claw attack and the extra potential rending wounds from the chainsabres that make the difference.

So yea - Mandiblaster being an auto-hit str3 attack vs. being an extra attack is a nerf (math FTW)

That said, on the whole Scorpions are better even with that nerf because of the claw and rending chainsabres.

(someone please correct me if my math is off, did it quick)

edit: ignore this, apparently my math skills are good but I can't read. ;)

[davel]

As I see it I think the short range is to force us to stay mobile. tau are supposed to be mobile and shooty. But how often do you find that come the last turns they are still in there deployment zone.
Our shooty sets has improved and not all in obvious blade storm way and bs
First plasma grenades help. Next battle focus move forward shoot and retreat adds range, fleet (oddly not mentioned as a army wide rule) helps re roll the run.
More weapon slots for guardians, the scatter laser helps most vehicles hit. And we have improved range guide.

Dave l

[Kyban]

Actually, I just did some math and 9 Scorpions with Chainsabres plus an Exarch with the Claw attacking MEQ will get about 6.77 kills. If Mandiblasters gave an extra attack, they'd get 7.75 kills. It's the additional claw attack and the extra potential rending wounds from the chainsabres that make the difference.

So yea - Mandiblaster being an auto-hit str3 attack vs. being an extra attack is a nerf (math FTW)

That said, on the whole Scorpions are better even with that nerf because of the claw and rending chainsabres.

(someone please correct me if my math is off, did it quick)

The normal scorpions have scorpion chainswords, which are not rending.

[Mr Mystery]

Here's the maths (note the 's' in maths, silly colonial types :p) shown step by step.

I10. 10 Mandiblasters (I assume we're Marine tipping here). 3.33 wounds, so 1 Marine statistically dropped.
I6. Mr Exarch gives them a bit of Claw. 4 attacks, hitting on a 3, killing on a 2+... Statistically, 3 Marines dropped.
I5. The big boys, are in the butchers! 27 attacks hitting and wounding on a 4, two thirds of which will be saved. 2 more Marines go to meet the Emperor, head optional.

I make that 6 dead marines, leaving 4 in your average squad. Even if its assault marines, likely not enough to make a difference.

But lets also be sensible, and loose off a volley of Shuriken fire before choppy death time... 11 shots, of which 6 will reliably hit. One is likely to be a Bladestorm, so that's another marine in need of an Apothercary off the bat. Remaining 5 hits? I rounded down on hits, so to balance out, call it three wounds. Or another dead Marine.

[calamitycal]

The normal scorpions have scorpion chainswords, which are not rending.

DOH! You're right. Ah well.

[calamitycal]

Here's the maths (note the 's' in maths, silly colonial types :p) shown step by step.

I10. 10 Mandiblasters (I assume we're Marine tipping here). 3.33 wounds, so 1 Marine statistically dropped.
I6. Mr Exarch gives them a bit of Claw. 4 attacks, hitting on a 3, killing on a 2+... Statistically, 3 Marines dropped.
I5. The big boys, are in the butchers! 27 attacks hitting and wounding on a 4, two thirds of which will be saved. 2 more Marines go to meet the Emperor, head optional.

I make that 6 dead marines, leaving 4 in your average squad. Even if its assault marines, likely not enough to make a difference.

But lets also be sensible, and loose off a volley of Shuriken fire before choppy death time... 11 shots, of which 6 will reliably hit. One is likely to be a Bladestorm, so that's another marine in need of an Apothercary off the bat. Remaining 5 hits? I rounded down on hits, so to balance out, call it three wounds. Or another dead Marine.

Yup you're right. Misread the weapon list. It's definitely a buff.

A squad of Scorpions can basically take out an entire marine squad before the marines even fight back (not counting overwatch but that will likely rarely factor much) ... makes the Banshees even more useless by comparison.

[Mr Mystery]

And don't forget.... Every placed shot from the Exarch is 'magic six squared' as its also auto wounding Ap2! How sexy is that!

Though given the Claw, I fear the other weapons are rather obsolete....

[Mr Mystery]

To hell with statistics! LETS ROLL!

So, 11 Shuriken shots. Exarch hit twice, one placed. Allocated to Sarge (reduce the ld, remove pokiest HTH equipment.) rolled a 3 for his 'look out', so he's toast. Other shots killed on more Marine.

So, 10 Mandiblasters next. Yuck.....6 wounds! And..... 4 dead Marines (I'm a daemon roller!).

Next up? Give 'em the Claw!!!! 2 hits.... 2 dead. Huzzah! Only two more power armoured ponces left!

Get 'em boys! Out of 9 hits, that's 6 failed saves..... Leaving -4 Marines! And they totally choked on their Overwatch too!

[chicop76]

I wentto the rip tide due to fire power and the fact it's hard to instant kill.

Flyers can get lucky. Like yesturday all I was getting was glancing hits and that was denying jink saves.

Is it me some of the eldar slots seem to small.

Heavy Suppot for example:
Dark Reapers
Fire Prisom
Wraith Knight
Wraith Lord

All solid choices off the top of my head. Fire prisom is awesome for ranged armour 13 and above, but ve the wraithknight with 2 strength 10 ap 1 shots that can instant kill things like bloodthirsters I can't see why you wouldn't field that. The three shot blast is nice with the +5 invulnerable, but I am likeing the double strength 10 shots. Heck with two guys like this you are alreay dishing out devestaing ranged strength 10 that no other army can do. I would say take the 2 star cannons as well for 6 ap 1/2 shots. Throw in re rolling to hit on bs 4 why worry about a heavy nid army or grounded bloodthirster.

The dark reapers also stick out as a really good unit. They all can take actually missiles which can deny jink saves which is great anti vehicle. On top of that your exarch can fire 2 skyfire shots.

The good thing about the reapers is they actually make te war walkers seem better. I won't take two sky fire shots on on, but I am thinking scatter laser and eldar missile launcher which is under 100 points.

Also if you throw in the one hit wonder, the new fighter! As long as the onther side doesn't have intercept or a bunce on strength 4 or higher shots around. You can surely take out any fighter that the dark reapers o war walker didn't take out. You'll be dead too, but you will take out your target.

[calamitycal]

To hell with statistics! LETS ROLL!

So, 11 Shuriken shots. Exarch hit twice, one placed. Allocated to Sarge (reduce the ld, remove pokiest HTH equipment.) rolled a 3 for his 'look out', so he's toast. Other shots killed on more Marine.

So, 10 Mandiblasters next. Yuck.....6 wounds! And..... 4 dead Marines (I'm a daemon roller!).

Next up? Give 'em the Claw!!!! 2 hits.... 2 dead. Huzzah! Only two more power armoured ponces left!

Get 'em boys! Out of 9 hits, that's 6 failed saves..... Leaving -4 Marines! And they totally choked on their Overwatch too!

I think the Exarch loses his pistol when he takes the claw? How does that affect his attacks in CC? With your rolls it wouldn't have mattered just not sure.

[Mr Mystery]

Pistol yes... Chain sword no. Neither are specialist weapons!

[Mr Mystery]

Just had two quick roll ups based on 5 Terminators attempting to assault a 20 strong Guardian unit with 2 Shuriken Cannon....

First batch? Bladestormed them into the dirt, with 6 unsaved wounds.

Second batch? 3 dropped by Overwatch, and another beaten to death in HTH....

Who needs a decent range when you can sit in a bush and moon your enemy until he comes to get you! The rolls I just did would drop anything short of a really big Tyranid!

Scratch that. Ballsed it up! Reread Bladestorm, and its sixes to wound, not to hit. Herpderpderp!

[calamitycal]

Pistol yes... Chain sword no. Neither are specialist weapons!

Cool. One minor wrinkle with the mandiblaster is it only does the str3 hit against models in base contact. I rarely get all 10 models in base to base, it's usually 5 or 6.

Still, feels like Scorpions are the way to go, definitely over Banshees and maybe even over Harlies.

[AlaitocJib]

I'm actually not sold on the Wraithguard as troops thing.... im converting my wave serpents to wraith serpents what used to hold fire dragons now will hold WG...

i looked at my WK model and if i can get 3 more heads im going to use the WK head on the cockpits of my wraithserpents to make em look cooler lol

I actually did a kit bash for a wave serpent large enough to carry ten wraith guard. Named it Charon. Props to those that understand why. :)

[Mr Mystery]

Cool. One minor wrinkle with the mandiblaster is it only does the str3 hit against models in base contact. I rarely get all 10 models in base to base, it's usually 5 or 6.

Still, feels like Scorpions are the way to go, definitely over Banshees and maybe even over Harlies.

I'd say Banshees still have their place, but against enemy command squads, where you really don't want them hitting back. But overall, going for a pick up game, Scorpions all the way.

[murgel]

I say:
Codex good rules.
Much better than anticipated by me. Kelly surprised me, massively. I have been worried after the 4th ed. letdown

Best feature:
Farseer no longer mandatory!
Synergy no longer means unit+farseer/warlock= unit adequate, but now means unit+unit=more than 2 units

Very nice:
new guardian statline
Bladestorm
Exarch now really optional
Laser Targeting via Scatter Laser. Great idea.
HQ are all appealing in one way or another. Either rules or fluff or both.
HS see HQ
FA see HQ
Troops see HQ
Elites see HQ with one tear drop.

Let down rules:
Banshee mask. IMO should be reduce by 5 without minimum and work in first phase of combat.
Acrobatics, IMO should be +3" to run and counter-attack.
Mandiblaster. IMO should be S4

All else is either very nice or nice! So I consider it a great codex.

Minis:

Illic - beautiful and useful in conversions. A+
Spiritseer - nice. B-
Wraithnight - stunning with lots of options A
Wraithguard/blades - OMG, nerdgasm A++
Flyer - nice. B

I will buy the Knight and the WG for collecting purpose at least.

[scadugenga]

Just had two quick roll ups based on 5 Terminators attempting to assault a 20 strong Guardian unit with 2 Shuriken Cannon....

First batch? Bladestormed them into the dirt, with 6 unsaved wounds.

Second batch? 3 dropped by Overwatch, and another beaten to death in HTH....

Who needs a decent range when you can sit in a bush and moon your enemy until he comes to get you! The rolls I just did would drop anything short of a really big Tyranid!



Scratch that. Ballsed it up! Reread Bladestorm, and its sixes to wound, not to hit. Herpderpderp!

So, regular terms? How many kills did they get shooting before assaulting? Gotta take that into account, or you're guilty of skewing the numbers.

If they were TH/SS terms, run those numbers instead.

I think you'll find a different story.

[SeekingOne]

I say:
but now means unit+unit=more than 2 units
Mind giving a few examples to illustrate your idea?

[murgel]

ok, here is one example, which is not really mine but I feel it is excellent.

cast of characters
The good ones.
-unit of Banshees (with Exarch if you have points)
-unit of Wraithblades (minimum is enough)
The bad ones:
one unit.

so you want to kill the bad guys? but the blades so not have the attacks to do it and the ladies would die in overwatch?
1. attack (move) the blades. soak up the overwatch.
2. attack the banshees (no overwatch no pain)
3. resolve combat of banshees
4. resolve combat of wraithblades
5. optional resolve leftovers.
6. optional overrun leftovers (remember their I=1)
7. reposition, if no cover for banshees nearby have WB form a cover.

so, neither the WB nor the Banshees would have been able to kill say, a full marine squad, in one turn but working simultaneously together they can. And are looking gorgeous while doing it. :rolleyes:
As I said not my example but IMO a perfect one.

[AlaitocJib]

ok, here is one example, which is not really mine but I feel it is excellent.

cast of characters
The good ones.
-unit of Banshees (with Exarch if you have points)
-unit of Wraithblades (minimum is enough)
The bad ones:
one unit.

so you want to kill the bad guys? but the blades so not have the attacks to do it and the ladies would die in overwatch?
1. attack (move) the blades. soak up the overwatch.
2. attack the banshees (no overwatch no pain)
3. resolve combat of banshees
4. resolve combat of wraithblades
5. optional resolve leftovers.
6. optional overrun leftovers (remember their I=1)
7. reposition, if no cover for banshees nearby have WB form a cover.

so, neither the WB nor the Banshees would have been able to kill say, a full marine squad, in one turn but working simultaneously together they can. And are looking gorgeous while doing it. :rolleyes:
As I said not my example but IMO a perfect one.

I've been saying that for a while now in my head. Almost positive I posted that somewhere too. Some may see it wasteful to use two units for one combat but if it keeps your units alive then it was well worth it.

A pricey way yet quick way to shatter a flank would to do that using a couple wave serpents. Jet them to a flank and be ready to drop them the next turn. Meanwhile on the other flank or center give them a juicy target. If they're torn in their decision they're getting Torn a new one in theory.

[Daemonette666]

I wentto the rip tide due to fire power and the fact it's hard to instant kill.


Riptides are a lot easier to kill than either the Wraith lord or the Wraith Knight. They are Toughness 8 and are fearless. They have multiple wounds, and can be upgraded to get invulnerable saves.

The Riptide is only toughness 6 which means even bolters can harm it. Yes it has a 2+ armour save, and can even get a 3+ invulnerable save if you successfully over boost the 5+ invulnerable shield save. However you have a 1 in 3 chance to hurt yourself, which I have seen done twice in a single game. The greatest weakness is that it is not a Character, and you can send in a character and squad of troops to close combat the beast.

I did this in one game while using a rhino with dirge caster to stop most of the supported overwatch fire, and caused 3 wounds on the riptide, and killed one drone. I lost 2 of my Chosen (Mark of Tzeentch) and forced his riptide to make a LD test. He failed and I ran down his Riptide unit killing it.

You could not do that with the Wraith Knight or Wraith Lord. Tou have to keep wounding it until it loses its last wound or use instant death weapons. Preferrably ones that have a high strength (8 or higher) and low AP (3 or lower). The Wraith Knight is not a character, so it can not have weapons like the murder sword target it. In that case the Axe of blind fury would be better, especially used by a model with Furious Charge. I suppose that is why the Wraith night costs so much.

The only comparable Monstrous creature in the CSM codex is the Daemon Prince. With a base cost of between 155 and 160 points (as you have to upgrade it to a daemon of "choose your chaos power"), you end up with a model that is a not fearless, can be instant killed unless you make it Nurgle, has no armour unless you pay for it, only comes with a 5+ invul save, and needs to be upgrades (more cost) to give it ranged attacks in the form of psychic powers. It is more likely to die than the Wraith Knight. I only have one in my carry case because a Character might turn into one if it rolls Dark Apotheosis.

The Wraith Knight is suppose to be the big nasty threatening thing that draws the fire power away from your troops and other units. It can only shoot 2 weapons, but you can tool it up to be a close combat nightmare, or use it as a mobile (it jumps) weapons platform. Select your target each turn, vehicle or troops, and then kill the target. Make the enemy concentrate all that heavy fire power on it. It is immune to all strength 4 or lower weapons unlike toughness 6 monsters that can be wounded by strength 3 weapons. In close combat, the only monstrous creature that has a chance of taking it down without being taken out itself (from available options) is the Blood Thirster. Dread Knights and Shard of C'Tan, would likely be killed off before they kill it.

As I stated in threads on another site, they are a specialist army. No hammer and anvil style Space Marine tactics. Each unit has its role, and it is a flexible army codex. Maneuverable, units, high initiatives, decent WS and BS, a mix of armour save values, lots of nasty high strength and low AP weapons. A lot of weapons ranges are shorter than in other armies, but you have the mobility to get in shoot and get out of there. The main dedicated transport option is decent, and it can be supported by other vehicles that have the power to kill off the enemy tanks, and even troops hiding in cover. The psychic powers are not too bad, and can enhance your armies offensive and defence abilities quite well if you know what you are doing. Like most new codexes, it will take some time to get used to using it well, but it can make for some enjoyable and winnable games.

I have been playing against Eldar in Rogue trader days, and through out 4th through to 6th edition. I have never used the army myself, as I find them too goodie 2 shoes. I love Chaos, and have found that the games I played against Eldar armies have been some of the more difficult and enjoyable one I have had. They have always been a hard foe to beat when play by someone who know how to use them (my usual opponents).

A mate of mine who has Necron/Tau/Space Wolves and Space marine armies is considering collecting them. If he allies with his Tau, it will make a good army to combat. On their own, he will have a force I will have to work hard at in order to beat. Plus he now knows to kill off my rhinos and land raiders that have dirge caster before they can stop his overwatch fire.

[daboarder]

So how many people have actually read the Wraithknight entry and compared it to other MC in other codex.

For less than a landraider you get more firepower, more mobility, more resilience....

I mean hell that thing is a freeking MONSTER!

Anything less than a S5 Force weapon can't reliably scratch it.

Don't like the 2 secondary weapons? Fine don't waste you points on it.

I mean for 280 that thing ruins infantry and light-vehicles alike.

The damn thing will murder a daemon prince in combat that's for sure!

[rle68]

I wentto the rip tide due to fire power and the fact it's hard to instant kill.

Flyers can get lucky. Like yesturday all I was getting was glancing hits and that was denying jink saves.

Is it me some of the eldar slots seem to small.

Heavy Suppot for example:
Dark Reapers
Fire Prisom
Wraith Knight
Wraith Lord

All solid choices off the top of my head. Fire prisom is awesome for ranged armour 13 and above, but ve the wraithknight with 2 strength 10 ap 1 shots that can instant kill things like bloodthirsters I can't see why you wouldn't field that. The three shot blast is nice with the +5 invulnerable, but I am likeing the double strength 10 shots. Heck with two guys like this you are alreay dishing out devestaing ranged strength 10 that no other army can do. I would say take the 2 star cannons as well for 6 ap 1/2 shots. Throw in re rolling to hit on bs 4 why worry about a heavy nid army or grounded bloodthirster.

The dark reapers also stick out as a really good unit. They all can take actually missiles which can deny jink saves which is great anti vehicle. On top of that your exarch can fire 2 skyfire shots.

The good thing about the reapers is they actually make te war walkers seem better. I won't take two sky fire shots on on, but I am thinking scatter laser and eldar missile launcher which is under 100 points.

Also if you throw in the one hit wonder, the new fighter! As long as the onther side doesn't have intercept or a bunce on strength 4 or higher shots around. You can surely take out any fighter that the dark reapers o war walker didn't take out. You'll be dead too, but you will take out your target.

your talking tau in an eldar topic?

well your vaunted riptide is d cannon bait to A WRAITHKNIGHT a wound of 6 auto kills a failEd invo save from your vaunted riptide or from any number of wraithguard d cannon shots

[Defenestratus]

I actually did a kit bash for a wave serpent large enough to carry ten wraith guard. Named it Charon. Props to those that understand why. :)

EVE nerd? :P

[Sainhann]

pie plate weapons dont ignore cover saves only flamer templates do.. just fyi

if you let units with flamers get to your guardians your doing something wrong

and btw there may be pie plates that do ignore covers but they are army specific if im not mistaken

I do believe the SH's grenades allow no cover save and there are many other weapons that don't as well.

Plus unless you have come up with a way to stop Marine from Deep Striking you will have models with Flamers landing next to your Guardians. Plus I think you need to read up on Vanguard Marines an what they can do, because not only will they Flamer you Guardians the turn they Deep Strike they will assault them as well.

[daboarder]

I do believe the SH's grenades allow no cover save and there are many other weapons that don't as well.

Plus unless you have come up with a way to stop Marine from Deep Striking you will have models with Flamers landing next to your Guardians. Plus I think you need to read up on Vanguard Marines an what they can do, because not only will they Flamer you Guardians the turn they Deep Strike they will assault them as well.

Perhaps taking your own advice would be a good idea?

here's a hint, re-read heroic intervention!

[Sainhann]

Twenty years go I could use nagsh in herohammer and there were armor modifiers...

Yup, and today Nagash is no where to be seen since the only Undead armies are VC's & TK's.

Yes there were Armor modifiers and that is the reason why Guardians were nerfed. They were to good at killing Marines so what does GW do, drop their weapon range down to 12" and got rid of modifiers.

So that was a double whammy nerf. Oh and at the same time they came out with the Tau who got a 30" strength 5 weapon but Guardians are still at 12" and were rarely seen on the table.

There is a reason why Dire Avengers got an additional 6 inches of range. At 18" they are okay at 12" no one was using them because they suck worst than Guardians.

[chicop76]

Well someon asked why i ran a riptide and i answered. Did i say a riptide can got toe to toe with a wraithknight no. The knight can outshoot and outfiight a tide. However I was saying that the tide with it's +3 invulnerable is a very hard unit to put down. In some cases it does well in combat and in some cases it does poorly. Not being fearless it have to pick and choose and the fact it's not a character is another big hit. Oh and the wraithknight is not a character too. Anyway the point is I seen the tide take a lot of punishment. The only time I see it die is in combat. Once to melta bombing veterans, greyknights with hammers. and a Necorn lord that assaulted the tide with one wound left on it.

If i was to compare the wraithknight to any model it would be the c'tan from the last necron Codex. The nightbringer would own the Wraithknight. The major differance is the Wraithknight has a better regular save and better shooting attacks.

If a daemon prince fought a wraithknight it will depend on what type of prince is fighting your wraithknight. An average prince would lose, however on that is hyped up on biomancy and have poision or high strength attacks more than likely will give the knight a good fight and possibly win. the sam goes for a bloodthirster vs a knight. The knight's toughness and high strength is it's edge and it can kill a thirster,but a thirster can kill it as well. The only MC's i can think the knight would have any real problems fighting against is a great unclean one, Ku'gath, or dreadknight which can strenth 10 force weapon kill the wraithknight.

A 3+ save is not great due to mass missle death. Boy i hate space wolves. Any way missles become a problem for this model.

However keep in mind that the wraithknight can have a +2 save and possibly re roll saves.

If i was to run one I would use it as a shooting platform. It has 2 36' range streangth 10 weapons, also for under 300 points it can take 4 strength 6 ap 2 shots. that's 6 ap 2 shots that would put some hurting on what you need it to hurt.

It's not great in combat even with the sword. If it was a +4 invulnerable save than i would go suncannon and the sheild. The problem with the suncannon is that it's only 3 blast templates. All I have to do is keep my model 1.6" apart from each other and you will most often hit 3 at the most. I rather 2 strength 10 shots with the possibility of instant death over the small blast weapons. i tend to avoid small blast overall due to any smart player knows how to reduce getting hit by samll blast. it is good if shooting terminators come in via deep strike,. which again only a rokkie or someone who doesn't know would do something like that.

However The Nightbringer is not that hard to kill, comapring it to the warithknight the knight is eve easier to kill than the night bringer, The added 2+ save will be a problem. Another note is that you can field 3 wraithknights :(. All I have to say to those people if you play my Tau that is why i already have a ton of snipers thanks to plague drones and iron armed tyranids. if you play my Daemons my daemonettes will eat you. heck they re roll to hit and lower ws. good luck passing all those rending attacks.

what i like in the Eldar codex is the Farseer. Master level 3 and 21 differant powers to randomly choose from for soooooooo cheap. if anything why take Eldrad now. The regular Farseer is so good now that Eldrad is trully dead. Why run a Master 4 psyker when i can run 2 Master 3 psykers at almost the same cost.

The darkreapers are also really good. the fact they are really good will help limit the wraithknights. You need some anti-air which the reapers provide and can deny jink rolls.

[scadugenga]

Well I'd rather have all scorpions wielding Dire Swords but that doesn't matter. The fact is the +1 attack turned into a S3 auto-hit. You can say it's meh if you want but then you must also say that having an extra attack was bad. The change to the I10 S3 hit was a buff because it's more killy and it hits before the enemy can have a chance to attack, thereby reducing the attacks Scorps have to face.

So...do you work hard at being this snide, or is it just an inherent gift?

No, I do not have to say that.

The extra attack occurred for everyone who was able to fight.

The auto Str 3 hit is only for base to base models in combat. So it's highly unlikely you'll get all ten into base-to-base on turn 1 at Init. step 10. And after turn one, the combat may either be over, or you won't have ten scorpions left.


EVE nerd? :P

Actually, it's Greek Mythology. Charon was the ferryman who delivered the souls of the newly dead to Hades.


Um...no one taking chainsabres over the claw (paraphrasing, I know

Actually, I think the sabres are an almost neck & neck run for the Claw. Both are potentially amazing. (Str 5 Sabres v. Str 7 claw) with the Sabres having a slightly higher end penetration v. vehicles at the top. And at 1/3 the price, depending on the points, Sabres might make it into the list where the claw does not. I'll probably run 1 of each for awhile and see how they do.

[DarkLink]

Actually, it's Greek Mythology. Charon was the ferryman who delivered the souls of the newly dead to Hades.


Yeah, it's not that obscure of a refernce. Heck, if you google Charon it pretty much comes up with 'ferryman for dead souls'.

[calamitycal]

The extra attack occurred for everyone who was able to fight.

The auto Str 3 hit is only for base to base models in combat. So it's highly unlikely you'll get all ten into base-to-base on turn 1 at Init. step 10. And after turn one, the combat may either be over, or you won't have ten scorpions left.

This is true. The base to base makes the str3 auto-hit less appealing. Making it simple, taking the exarch out of the equation in a 10 man squad attacking a MEQ squad, you'd need to get 8 models in base to base for the str3 auto-hit to cause more wounds than the extra attack would have been. 10 extra attacks causes 2.5 wounds so you need 8 str3 wounds to get more than that against T4 resulting in 2.64 wounds.

Now replace one of those scorpions with the exarch with a claw and now you get over just under 3 wounds (one of them with no save) from the extra attacks - counting the potential for an extra unsaved wound, you basically need all 10 str 3 hits to be in base to base to match what the extra attack rule would have achieved at that point. Getting 8 models in base to base, let alone all 10, is something that almost never happens.

The I10 of the attack makes it interesting, but with a base of I5 (and I6 for the exarch) scorpions will likely strike first against most MEQ opponents anyway.

Heh, gone back and forth on this issue a couple of times now, but I'm starting to think at best the mandiblaster change is a wash and at worst it actually IS a nerf.

What makes the Scorpions better is the AP2 potential of their shuriken strike + the claw attacking at I6. They're a very good unit and definitely improved on the whole imo.

[rle68]

I do believe the SH's grenades allow no cover save and there are many other weapons that don't as well.

Plus unless you have come up with a way to stop Marine from Deep Striking you will have models with Flamers landing next to your Guardians. Plus I think you need to read up on Vanguard Marines an what they can do, because not only will they Flamer you Guardians the turn they Deep Strike they will assault them as well.


i know very well what vanguard can do but i can also tell you no self respecting marine player uses them they basically suck.. VG marines are able to actually make that assault maybe 1 out of 3 times i dont worry about them
sternguard are better

and honestly if you know the marine payer has drop pods and you let him land near your guardians again your doing something wrong

and yes you are correct SH grenade pack does indeed work if your opponent wants to land sh near guardians instead of other things it could kill more power to him

[chicop76]

i know very well what vanguard can do but i can also tell you no self respecting marine player uses them they basically suck.. VG marines are able to actually make that assault maybe 1 out of 3 times i dont worry about them
sternguard are better

and honestly if you know the marine payer has drop pods and you let him land near your guardians again your doing something wrong

and yes you are correct SH grenade pack does indeed work if your opponent wants to land sh near guardians instead of other things it could kill more power to him


Vanguard sucks unless it's blood angel vanguard which seems to have a decent chance at assaulting out of deep strike, or if a drop pod with a homer helps do so when the pod drops in on turn 1.

[AlaitocJib]

EVE nerd? :P

I was thinking more along the lines of the ferryman of the river Styx. :P

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[daboarder]

Vanguard sucks unless it's blood angel vanguard which seems to have a decent chance at assaulting out of deep strike, or if a drop pod with a homer helps do so when the pod drops in on turn 1.

Even if it is, they're still not flamming the crap out of you first, or denying your overwatch

[chicop76]

Even if it is, they're still not flamming the crap out of you first, or denying your overwatch

Than again how many blood angels use vanguard. It's either furioso double flame, or 4-5 melta type weapons blasting away. I wouldn't be surprised that I see more missiles and meltas thanks to good old eldar.

[daboarder]

Than again how many blood angels use vanguard. It's either furioso double flame, or 4-5 melta type weapons blasting away. I wouldn't be surprised that I see more missiles and meltas thanks to good old eldar.

...huh?

[chicop76]

Even if it is, they're still not flamming the crap out of you first, or denying your overwatch

That's what I said here. Huh???

[James Jimbo Burrell]

Well I played three games today. Game one, 500 pts, autaurch on jet bike,banshee mask,lance. Two units of 6 jet bikes with two SCannons. A wraith lord with blade and star cannon. Tabled a space wolf player very quickly. Every time he stepped out a unit died. ( he had a lone wolf,with TSS, and two wolves, termie rune priest and two 5 man grey hunters) jet bikes at 17 points are rude! The fast move, twin linked, and soft rend is mean as all get out! Autarch bounced off the rune priest.....smdh. Played the relic

Game two was 1k. Added two units of guardians with wave serpents, SCannons, all else the same. Draw against nods. He had tons of gaunts, a carnafex, Hive tyrant....and some warriors. The ability to jump on to an objective and hold it was nice, even tho once based I died quick. Oh and by the way two units of jet bikes killed the few with soft rend. Hive tyrant was a beast! He killed more units but I had two objectives. Played big guns never tire.

Game three added the Wraithknight,and a 10 man hawks unit. Played wolves again, and I was scared of his long fangs nuking my WK. But he only brought one unit, and I was lucky enough to roll saves well or be in H2H , I did lose three wounds . Hawks won me the game re dropping turn 6 on an objective. Over all the three games were fun.

I learn,
A soft rend is mean as F***!
B soft rending WS are a blast! The new field is a riot!
C guardians tho fragile can be rude!
D guardians do not want to fight if they can't help it (true for any eldar unit, wrong place wrong unit)
E WK with sword,shield and two SCannons is a riot! But he can die!
F Autarch has to be built for what you want him to do.
G Jetbikes at 17 points are a must for me now!

My 2 cents....

[daboarder]

What? Ok now I'm seriously confused, can we start with this.

Even is BA vanguards are trying to assault your guardians they are not able to flame you before they do.

[SeekingOne]

I was thinking more along the lines of the ferryman of the river Styx. :P

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It's seriously cool. You could've used FW Scorpion chassi as a base model though :)

[chicop76]

What? Ok now I'm seriously confused, can we start with this.

Even is BA vanguards are trying to assault your guardians they are not able to flame you before they do.

It's 1:30 am here and I am barely awake. I will respond with a & b.

A. Even if I come in deep strike and assault the guardians unless they are storm can't flame the vanguard before they assault. Possible rending overwatch can be scarry.

B. I wouldn't flame the guardians due to the fact I might not be able to assault. With assault marines I can see flaming them. With vanguard you want to assault and be locked in combat, so a flame attack can stop you from engaging.

[AlaitocJib]

It's seriously cool. You could've used FW Scorpion chassi as a base model though :)

I'd rather use my scorpion as a scorpion though lol. The troop hold us actually two falcon rears turned sideways and blended together. It has two ramps and the catapults were to lay down fire upon opening. :)

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All in all the model is maybe an inch or two shy of being the same length of the scorpion. I have a scratch built kit bash Warp Hunter too. Have the actual model but wanted something a little fierce to look at.

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[SeekingOne]

It was a cool idea to blend two falcon rears.

And that Warp Hunter is bloody awesome!! Dual-cockpit is superb, and the whole model looks pretty much like a proper factory-cast kit. Fantastic job!

[eldargal]

A few nice little extras I've noticed now that I sat down for a proper read of the book:

Page 10 explicitly states that eldar warriors are as likely to be female as male, ending that debate.
Hemlock Wossname could synergise well with a lot of the LD test abilities, might be worth the expense for a bit of risk.
All it would take for Banshees to be a really vialbe unit based around an exarch with S5 AP2 is grenades! Gah
Autarchs I think will be useful for extra reserves finesse which will be quite important to the flyers.
Jain Zars new artwork is fantastic. So is she.

More that I've forgotten.

[lattd]

As the autarch comes with grenades you don't need the banshees to have them. If you put him in the unit, maybe give him the flaming sword and he adds an invulnerable save for the squad but you do loose the extra speed. It is a shame banshees don't have grenades.

[eldargal]

Assault grenades only apply to the model, not the unit. So the Autarch would strike at regular I but the Banshees would strike at I1. Solutions:
-Errata them grenades
-FAQ Banshee Masks to drop I to 0

[murgel]

-Errata them grenades
-FAQ Banshee Masks to drop I to 0
Sorry beauty, the mask has to be Errataed. It is stated explicitly that the minimum is 1, so a FAQ does not really apply here. (me bad, me arrogant, me forget rule no.1:women always right!) :o

Frankly with the -5/min. 0 there would be no more need for grenades. But still be the need for "in first phase of combat" and for counter attack.

But as those are easy fixes for a massive problem, GW will not do it.:cool:

[eldargal]

Yep, not sure why I wrote it like that. Not expecting them to change it of course but I won't give up hope just yet. I'll be writing a letter to GW in the next few days as I pore over the book some more.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I'm afraid I think that the mask is there "instead of" grenades and that they aren't going to change it. Which sucks for charging into cover, yes. Scorpions, on the other hand, with Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, and Grenades, are made for it.

Which, I know, leaves the question of what it is exactly that Banshees are for - answers on a postcard!

(Although actually like someone earlier in the thread, I suspect that Banshees are potentially as sick as hell charging into existing combats - Scorpions or whatever soak up the overwatch, Banshees charge in, drop the enemy's I and rack up the kills).

[cebalrai]

Massacred Space Marines last night with the new codex. My opponent called the new Codex overpowered after his deep striking terminators were wiped off the map by a single turn of Guardian shooting along with their Wave Serpent. I just pulled up, disembarked, shot him off the map, and then with the Battle Trance move I scurried behind the Serpent for cover. Mathhammering this out, it looks like Guardians with a SL/TL Shuricannon Serpent will average around four dead Termis.

I didn't even have a Warlock, just 11 Guardians and a Starcannon platform. I didn't have the heart to tell him I could have had a Warlock that could give his Termis 3+ armor. :rolleyes:

My list had 4 Guardians squads in Serpents, one of which was Storm Guardians w/flamers. It just feels so safe in Serpents now, especially when they're moving flat-out. They're the equivalent of having a AV 12 vehicle with 6 hull points each, so to stop my Guardian rush he'd essentially need enough firepower to do like 24 hull points of damage. I dunno... When I deployed my army I knew I was going to win.

Battle Trance... WOW this is a powerful ability. People need to stop moaning that Guardians have a 12" range because it's not true. Their range is 12" + d6 (rerollable) run. Their range is basically 17 inches. I've played two games now with Guardians and each time I've run into range to shoot something important.

[Defenestratus]

Yeah, it's not that obscure of a refernce. Heck, if you google Charon it pretty much comes up with 'ferryman for dead souls'.

Yes but I was hoping to find a kindred spirit.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Battle Trance... WOW this is a powerful ability. People need to stop moaning that Guardians have a 12" range because it's not true. Their range is 12" + d6 (rerollable) run. Their range is basically 17 inches. I've played two games now with Guardians and each time I've run into range to shoot something important.

And also potentially a decent "run away! run away!" move, which could get them out of dodge quite handily if you do it right. Like you did!

[cebalrai]

And also potentially a decent "run away! run away!" move, which could get them out of dodge quite handily if you do it right. Like you did!


It's just so good. People are going to love it and our opponents are going to whine about it.

My Opponent last night: "What, so I can't have Termis near Guardians anymore?" *disturbed look*


LOL. Nope.

[murgel]

They're the equivalent of having a AV 12 vehicle with 6 hull points each, so to stop my Guardian rush he'd essentially need enough firepower to do like 24 hull points of damage.

I do not really understand this statement.
The serpent with shield still has just 3 HP. I can understand not being afraid of penetrating hits but it's all the same, even downgraded pens are glances and glances cost one HP each. So after 3 glances the serpent is dead. It will likely not explode or die prematurely but 3 glances kill it.
And everybody is going for mass of glances anyway. I have not lost a single tank to a penetrating hit since 5th ed. went down. So what about this Euphoria?

[cebalrai]

I do not really understand this statement.
The serpent with shield still has just 3 HP. I can understand not being afraid of penetrating hits but it's all the same, even downgraded pens are glances and glances cost one HP each. So after 3 glances the serpent is dead. It will likely not explode or die prematurely but 3 glances kill it.
And everybody is going for mass of glances anyway. I have not lost a single tank to a penetrating hit since 5th ed. went down. So what about this Euphoria?


Theoryhammer.

3 hull points times four Serpents = twelve hull points.

During the rush I'm moving flat-out with a 4+ cover save, thereby doubling the amount of hull points needed to take them all out.

[Defenestratus]

Theoryhammer.

3 hull points times four Serpents = twelve hull points.

During the rush I'm moving flat-out with a 4+ cover save, thereby doubling the amount of hull points needed to take them all out.

Throwing holofields on them makes that a 3+ flat out save as well. So you take a meltagun to the face, it rolls boxcars. You roll a 2+, then a 3+ then nothing happens.