Eldar Codex: So, What Do You Think Of It?

[cebalrai]

Throwing holofields on them makes that a 3+ flat out save as well. So you take a meltagun to the face, it rolls boxcars. You roll a 2+, then a 3+ then nothing happens.


This codex has the potential for more battlefield control than any I've ever seen. I'm only two matches into it, but I really feel like it gives me the power to decide when and where the matchups will happen. I give my opponents bad targets like the one you mentioned and make it pretty likely that on my turn I'm firing on good targets. It kind of feels like our new codex is the love child of the old dex and Corsairs. Except it's better than either one.

[mattblowers]

Massacred Space Marines last night with the new codex. My opponent called the new Codex overpowered after his deep striking terminators were wiped off the map by a single turn of Guardian shooting along with their Wave Serpent. I just pulled up, disembarked, shot him off the map, and then with the Battle Trance move I scurried behind the Serpent for cover. Mathhammering this out, it looks like Guardians with a SL/TL Shuricannon Serpent will average around four dead Termis.

I didn't even have a Warlock, just 11 Guardians and a Starcannon platform. I didn't have the heart to tell him I could have had a Warlock that could give his Termis 3+ armor. :rolleyes:

My list had 4 Guardians squads in Serpents, one of which was Storm Guardians w/flamers. It just feels so safe in Serpents now, especially when they're moving flat-out. They're the equivalent of having a AV 12 vehicle with 6 hull points each, so to stop my Guardian rush he'd essentially need enough firepower to do like 24 hull points of damage. I dunno... When I deployed my army I knew I was going to win.

Battle Trance... WOW this is a powerful ability. People need to stop moaning that Guardians have a 12" range because it's not true. Their range is 12" + d6 (rerollable) run. Their range is basically 17 inches. I've played two games now with Guardians and each time I've run into range to shoot something important.

There we go. That's what I'm talking about. I can't believe all the whining I've been hearing about the new codex. As fast as some of the whining started, you couldn't have taken the time to see what changed for the better. I'm two days in with the new 'dex and I'm amazed at how many goodies I keep finding. My only disappointment so far? I think Autoarchs should be better. I'd even be willing to pay more points for them. To match the fluff they should be MUCH better at all around buffing of their armies. Instead, they are a cheap choice that makes a bit off a difference with reserves (albeit this could be game changing).

[chicop76]

Wow. The banshee complaining is killing me. They are not going to change it. You know why. Look at daemonettes. At least you do not have to pray to get a psychic power that does what the mask does or a character, al though ours prevent overwatch lol. Any way I heard the same complaing and people still use daemonettes. I still use 30-40 of them against people instead of bloodletters.

I was using a skullcannon, but instead of giving assault grenades to the Daemonettes I use it to strip units of cover saves, like pathfinders. I found I never go for the assault grenades due to the fact I don't want to blast my target out of assault range. The cover denial while good makes it hard to be able to use the assault grenade option.

With daemonettes they also have +3 to run, unless on mounts than it's a +6 to run. Thanks to the run boost I can assault in turn 2 or turn 3.

Most of the time I assault at intititiave any way or going at the same time as my opponent. In some cases I go last if I can't get my powers off.

However even when I do go last I still do a lot of damage due to I am running 15 damonettes with a herald at least I tend to always re roll to hit, thanks to gear, and I can lower ws once a game with my banner, dem WS4 models hit you on 5s if loweres to a 2 which is average, heck WS 5 models can be lowered to 2. It makes a huge differance when assaultng guard blobs who are not going to hit you back on 4s. It greatly reduces hits upon my unit.

Before I used hounds I was giving them a 3+ invulnerable save with the second squad at times having invisibility, 4 rolls on the telepathy usually pulls that off, but been going for the non over watch against tau instead I love long shot in a tau army when I get puppet master. Anyway I usually get both squads across the table and do a lot of damage.

Without buffs a squad of 14 this weekend was able to kil a target or two before they died due to a huge amout of fire power. That was due to the Tau alliance and the fact I used them as cannon fodder for my tau anyways.

In my daemon army now I added hounds, so the hounds soak up the fire and multi assult. This leaves units unable to use cover or overwatch my daemonettes who nicely clean house after the hounds tie up units. If the hounds is not enough I also have a friendly neighboorhod blood thirster that also engages. Typically I seen most armies having a real hard time defending against this. Especially if my hounds got stupid stuff on them like invisibility, endurance, and a +3 invulnerable save. Which is why I am strongly thinking of going back to my fateweaver/ bloodthirster as HQ with Tzeentch Daemon Prince.

Anyway getting off my point. Banshees is not the only unit you have. You have so many tricks I do not know wwhere to begin. You should be running a farseer or spirtseer which should give you a few rolls to shoot for invisibility. People say I am stupid when I roll for telepathy instead of all biomancy with my nids and get mad when a tervigon has invisibility plus iron arm, with endurance, or when I take a model and have them fire on themselves.

As is they are not going to do well without support. Also they are stuck with just power swords. The best use I see for them is counter assault unit or a unit that follows another unit in. Assault with wraith what ever and than follow up with banshees.

The -5 I is very big. It means for starters they are great for anything that blinds in combat. I would use them as a unit to lower I really and let my wraithguard shine. I wouldn't use scorpions cause I can use wraithguard/blade/whatever. If you have an infiltrate character boom you can infiltrate with a unit of 10 wraith whatevers, I am trying to figure out if the ranger guy allowas you to infililtrate 10 wraith whatevers 1" away from some one.

[chicop76]

There we go. That's what I'm talking about. I can't believe all the whining I've been hearing about the new codex. As fast as some of the whining started, you couldn't have taken the time to see what changed for the better. I'm two days in with the new 'dex and I'm amazed at how many goodies I keep finding. My only disappointment so far? I think Autoarchs should be better. I'd even be willing to pay more points for them. To match the fluff they should be MUCH better at all around buffing of their armies. Instead, they are a cheap choice that makes a bit off a difference with reserves (albeit this could be game changing).


No. Guardians move 6", runaverage 3", and fire 12" for a range of 21" and with fleet they can get better than 3".

[eldargal]

Wow. The banshee complaining is killing me. They are not going to change it. You know why. Look at daemonettes. At least you do not have to pray to get a psychic power that does what the mask does or a character, al though ours prevent overwatch lol. Any way I heard the same complaing and people still use daemonettes. I still use 30-40 of them against people instead of bloodletters.
Stupid comparison is stupid. If Banshees were 33% cheaper (comparable with daemonettes) with a 5++ I wouldn't be complaining either.

[chicop76]

Stupid comparison is stupid. If Banshees were 33% cheaper (comparable with daemonettes) with a 5++ I wouldn't be complaining either.

Banshees is almost double and not to mention daemonettes have a +5 invulnerable. Atleast you have a 4+ that can get down to a 2+. Also you have power swords on every one. Only my alluress for a hefty 25 points can get an ap 2 mastercrafted weapon :(. Only to be able to rend is not that great, 60 re rollable hits on the charge and lowering ws isn't that great. Let's not talk about instability if I ever lose combat. Truth be told I take instability more from double 1s than from losing combat. I never rolled a double 6.

Anyway my point was to show how a similar unit can get around similar pit falls. I either heavly buff my nettes or have them run behind another unit to soak up damage.

Without looking at the codex I swear your exarch have an ap 2 strength 5 weapon. Unless I take a herald that is around 70 points I can't do that. Although I can take 4 to your 3. Anyway you can get a strength buff and that turns into a strength 6 weapon with a possibility of a +2 save with re rolls possible 2/3+ cover save, with possible re rolling saves/ with possible re rolling wounds, While being fearless or lowering a unit to leadership at least 7( those telepathy powers work on leadership) oh you can lower or increase ws and I by one. Not to mention most those powers stack.

The banshees is your cheapest elite unit running around a marine. While you are move run shooting with guardians( they cost the same as my damonettes) you banshees can follow. When the guardians get in assault charge or let the guardians get assaulted and follow up with the banshees. What's good about this is guardians have assault grenades right, so all your pretty elf people will be going before every one( I have to double check if the banshees will go at 1 or not). Anyway your guardins will strike first atleast with your warlock and your banshees striking at the same time as te model you are assaulting. You. Can at anytime let them assault the guardians and you will get full I benefits when you assault back.

If banshees was the same cost as damonettes than you will have to lower guardian prices as well.

Besides at least I don't have hatred eldar army wide. Oh my keeper of secrets hate you, one model.

[eldargal]

They aren't similar though. The 5++ is HUGE, it means you ignore a third of all wounds basically. Striking at I1 with comparatively expensive Elite units with only a 4+ save is really problematic. Oh and daemonettes have more attacks and higher LD.

[Esseldal]

I'm starting from the beginning of the thread, so maybe somebody covered this already, but doesn't the Riptide (in fact all battlesuits) have a Blacksun filter that helps mitigate blind? I don't have the book in front of me...

I like the idea of Blind (and was thus excited to see the Swooping Hawk exarch get it), but in practice, a lot of units can escape it and the ones who might really fail (lookin' at you, Orks) are such junky BS anyway that it's not a huge weakness. It's a cool rule that I don't think works well practically- but maybe I'm just bad at this game? That's in fact a very high probability. =)

~Es

[cebalrai]

I'm starting from the beginning of the thread, so maybe somebody covered this already, but doesn't the Riptide (in fact all battlesuits) have a Blacksun filter that helps mitigate blind? I don't have the book in front of me...

I like the idea of Blind (and was thus excited to see the Swooping Hawk exarch get it), but in practice, a lot of units can escape it and the ones who might really fail (lookin' at you, Orks) are such junky BS anyway that it's not a huge weakness. It's a cool rule that I don't think works well practically- but maybe I'm just bad at this game? That's in fact a very high probability. =)

~Es

I don't know why people keep wondering about this. Blacksun filter ignores the effects of night, not the blindness ability. Swooping Hawks will be excellent at creating BS1 Riptides.

Get this: Two Warp Hunters, Star Engines, holofields, and Crystal targeting matrix.

Turn one: Move flat-out and murder all their troops with Aether Rifts. No sense in letting Tau use Pathfinders, right? Nobody wants that.
Turn two: Jink like a hummingbird with your 3+ cover save.

[chicop76]

I'm starting from the beginning of the thread, so maybe somebody covered this already, but doesn't the Riptide (in fact all battlesuits) have a Blacksun filter that helps mitigate blind? I don't have the book in front of me...

I like the idea of Blind (and was thus excited to see the Swooping Hawk exarch get it), but in practice, a lot of units can escape it and the ones who might really fail (lookin' at you, Orks) are such junky BS anyway that it's not a huge weakness. It's a cool rule that I don't think works well practically- but maybe I'm just bad at this game? That's in fact a very high probability. =)

~Es

Blacksunfilter and all suits ignore blind. Even if one model has it all of them will have it.

Blind also works on ws which is big on orks.

@ the eldar girl. Damonettes are leadership 7 and banshees are 9. I have to double checked if daemons can be feared, but you can lower my 7 to 6 cause I am daemon of slaanesh and have hatred. Plus your exarch can have fear. Not to mention have a decent chance of stopping my alluress using her ap 2 weapon. The highest possible leadership I can have is 8 if I put a herald with them and if you take Jain Zar it bumbs you up to a 10. Oh and you have a power that lowers leadership by 3 which means not only I am -5 I, but probably will be ws 1 as well.

We have same number of attacks daemonettes used to have 3 base and now been dropped to 2, while you have 1 base and +1 from close combat and pistol.

The fact you have fear and the ability to lower leadership and or I is a big thing.

[cebalrai]

Blacksunfilter and all suits ignore blind. Even if one model has it all of them will have it.


Where are you getting that? Doesn't it just give the night fighting special rule?

Edit: gah! They added that in the new codex didn't they?

Edit afterthought: Why don't haywire grenades do extra damage against suits and drones? :(

[Autarch]

Massacred Space Marines last night with the new codex. My opponent called the new Codex overpowered after his deep striking terminators were wiped off the map by a single turn of Guardian shooting along with their Wave Serpent. I just pulled up, disembarked, shot him off the map, and then with the Battle Trance move I scurried behind the Serpent for cover. Mathhammering this out, it looks like Guardians with a SL/TL Shuricannon Serpent will average around four dead Termis.

I didn't even have a Warlock, just 11 Guardians and a Starcannon platform. I didn't have the heart to tell him I could have had a Warlock that could give his Termis 3+ armor. :rolleyes:

My list had 4 Guardians squads in Serpents, one of which was Storm Guardians w/flamers. It just feels so safe in Serpents now, especially when they're moving flat-out. They're the equivalent of having a AV 12 vehicle with 6 hull points each, so to stop my Guardian rush he'd essentially need enough firepower to do like 24 hull points of damage. I dunno... When I deployed my army I knew I was going to win.

Battle Trance... WOW this is a powerful ability. People need to stop moaning that Guardians have a 12" range because it's not true. Their range is 12" + d6 (rerollable) run. Their range is basically 17 inches. I've played two games now with Guardians and each time I've run into range to shoot something important.

This is what I'm talking about. I don't expect such sweeping success every time, but the potential is there, even with the humble guardians. I think Battle Trance in conjunction with a bevy of psychic support is going to be dramatically improve Eldar, even with randomized powers.

[cebalrai]

This is what I'm talking about. I don't expect such sweeping success every time, but the potential is there, even with the humble guardians. I think Battle Trance in conjunction with a bevy of psychic support is going to be dramatically improve Eldar, even with randomized powers.


By the way, Conceal is way better now. Shrouding is far superior to the old "gives cover". My 3x Guardians Jetbikes with Jetlock grabbed the relic on turn three and then moved into ruins where they had a 2+ cover save. He never even bothered taking any shots at me.

On the down side one of my other Warlocks blew himself up. :(

[Autarch]

Phenomenal. Hadn't even considered jetbike/conceal opportunities for objective grabbing. I think Guardians will do a decent job as well. Even without charging Stormies with flamers, and shuriken pistols, teamed up with Defenders with Warlock and a support weapon should do a very good job of flushing opponent off objectives and then holding them with conceal, late in game.

[cebalrai]

Phenomenal. Hadn't even considered jetbike/conceal opportunities for objective grabbing. I think Guardians will do a decent job as well. Even without charging Stormies with flamers, and shuriken pistols, teamed up with Defenders with Warlock and a support weapon should do a very good job of flushing opponent off objectives and then holding them with conceal, late in game.

Yeah, Guardians with a 2+ cover save while not even having to go to ground, still firing their Starcannon is great.

[eldargal]

The more I read the rules and look at Banshees (yes another Banshee post) the more I think it is just the grenades/I1 issue holding them back from being quite good. With a bit of synergy they would be very useful as a counter attack unit as suggested and also as a first wave attack unit IF they could be sure they wouldn't be striking simultaneously.

[AM-254]

Unfortunately my codex hasn't arrived yet but I understand that fire prisms have a lance mode now. My question is can I really use my three fire prisms to pop land raiders fairly reliably at 60 inches and then use their dispersed mode to destroy the unfortunate souls who find themselves footslogging; all the while using holofields to enhance potential coversaves?

[mr_draken]

Unfortunately my codex hasn't arrived yet but I understand that fire prisms have a lance mode now. My question is can I really use my three fire prisms to pop land raiders fairly reliably at 60 inches and then use their dispersed mode to destroy the unfortunate souls who find themselves footslogging; all the while using holofields to enhance potential coversaves?

Simple answer? yes

More detailed answer? yes you can.

[cebalrai]

Simple answer? yes

More detailed answer? yes you can.


S9 lance too, none of that weakling S8 Bright Lance stuff.

Also you can pop Land Raiders with Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Autarchs, Falcons, Wave Serpents, Vypers, War Walkers (BS4 TL bright lance FTW), and probably more stuff. We laugh at Land Raiders. Please Space Apes, bring more LolRaiders.

[lattd]

The more I read the rules and look at Banshees (yes another Banshee post) the more I think it is just the grenades/I1 issue holding them back from being quite good. With a bit of synergy they would be very useful as a counter attack unit as suggested and also as a first wave attack unit IF they could be sure they wouldn't be striking simultaneously.

A good eldar player should always be fighting the battles they want :p But seriously we know they don't have a grenade so dont fling them into entrenched units.

[chicop76]

Where are you getting that? Doesn't it just give the night fighting special rule?

Edit: gah! They added that in the new codex didn't they?

Edit afterthought: Why don't haywire grenades do extra damage against suits and drones? :(

Pg 68 Tau codex. Oh only the models with the filters are not blinded, so you can blind fire warriors, just not any suits and for almost free any vehicle can take it.

[chicop76]

A good eldar player should always be fighting the battles they want :p But seriously we know they don't have a grenade so dont fling them into entrenched units.

That's right. I don't see the banshees not being bad at all really. Most of the time they are strikeing at the same time or before most models anyway. Throw in warlock buffs or debuffs it makes them rather good.

Yeah you should see my seer council post about bikes with2/3+ cover saves. Which means marker lights for days.

[AM-254]

Oh excellent.
I found the rules on 4chan but they seemed too good to be true. I'm so glad that holo-fields actually do something again.
What's the general consensus on Falcons? They seem like, at BS4 they could make reliable long range monster hunters when equiped with a scatter laser to give the pulse laser re-roles to hit.

[Defenestratus]

Oh excellent.
I found the rules on 4chan but they seemed too good to be true. I'm so glad that holo-fields actually do something again.
What's the general consensus on Falcons? They seem like, at BS4 they could make reliable long range monster hunters when equiped with a scatter laser to give the pulse laser re-roles to hit.

Falcon would be great --- if it were not for the fact that the wave serpent is better in almost every way.

[cebalrai]

Oh excellent.
I found the rules on 4chan but they seemed too good to be true. I'm so glad that holo-fields actually do something again.
What's the general consensus on Falcons? They seem like, at BS4 they could make reliable long range monster hunters when equiped with a scatter laser to give the pulse laser re-roles to hit.


My thing with Falcons is that if we had them like this last codex they'd have seen a lot of playing time. But this codex they compete with other stuff that became awfully good as well. I think the consensus is that Falcons are decent (especially with scatter and TL Pulse Laser) and they're not going to lose you any matches. If you use them send them in a Serpent Rush to provide extra cover and hulls to back up your disembarking troops. I'd say put Fire Dragons in them but Wave Serpents are just so good at getting units where they need to go.

Maybe if you feel you need to transport Dark Reapers or something. Or 3 Wraithguard?

[Kyban]

Or 3 Wraithguard?
They can't transport any type of bulky so no wraithguard :(

[chicop76]

Falcon would be great --- if it were not for the fact that the wave serpent is better in almost every way.

I agree. You can only glance death a serpent and it can take twin lance weapons. It's also a good transport. If I want something dead with range I would get a prisom or a wraithknight with 2 strength 10 weapons.

[stormsblade]

Maybe in all the new codex excitement folks didn't notice version 1.1 of the errata came out friday night. Banshee masks entry was completely changed...

First round of combat, model wearing banshee mask gives i10, even if it charged through difficult terrain. nullify defensive grenades.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570042a_Eldar_v1.1.pdf

[DarkLink]

Battle Trance... WOW this is a powerful ability. People need to stop moaning that Guardians have a 12" range because it's not true. Their range is 12" + d6 (rerollable) run. Their range is basically 17 inches. I've played two games now with Guardians and each time I've run into range to shoot something important.

If you chose to reroll 1's and 2's for Fleet, you average 4.166". Reroll 1-3, you average 4.25, and reroll 1-4 you average 4.166 again. So if you roll a 1, 2, or a 3, reroll, but keep 4's, 5's, and 6's.


I don't know why people keep wondering about this. Blacksun filter ignores the effects of night, not the blindness ability. Swooping Hawks will be excellent at creating BS1 Riptides.

Get this: Two Warp Hunters, Star Engines, holofields, and Crystal targeting matrix.

Turn one: Move flat-out and murder all their troops with Aether Rifts. No sense in letting Tau use Pathfinders, right? Nobody wants that.
Turn two: Jink like a hummingbird with your 3+ cover save.

Have they updated the Forgeworld unit entries?

[Eldar_Atog]

My first game (against Necrons and Sisters) was a bust with them. I did learn a couple of things:

1) The Farseer is a lot more versatile now. She ended up with Prescience, Doom, Puppet Master. My thoughts are this on picking her powers. It's best to roll Runes of Fate first. If you get something you can't use, Guide is always useful and then you might not need the Divination school.

2) Warp spiders can easily keep up with Wave serpents

3) I tried giving the guardian defenders a wave serpent to see how they would function as a poor man's dire avengers. This did not work well this game. The serpent got glanced to death and then the guardians were left in no man's land. They died quickly. I can't use a trick like this against a necron list that has multiple squads of immortals. There's no way for me to close the distance before having the serpents shot out from under me.

4) Dark reapers should start completely out of sight and then use the first turn move to get into position. The slow and purposeful will help me to keep them alive long enough to shoot. (They took 7 heavy bolters and a quad gun to the face before I even got a turn)

5) The warwalkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lances was a nice combo. The squad killed 2 rhinos and 2 pentient engines in 4 turns :)


The highlight of the game for me was puppet mastering the Necron jetbike unit and delivering 5 blast templates to the heavy bolter squad in the aegis defense line :)

[stormsblade]

Edit: I'm dumb ignore me

[chicop76]

Puppet master works. On one model. Not the entire squad.

[cebalrai]

My first game (against Necrons and Sisters) was a bust with them. I did learn a couple of things:

1) The Farseer is a lot more versatile now. She ended up with Prescience, Doom, Puppet Master. My thoughts are this on picking her powers. It's best to roll Runes of Fate first. If you get something you can't use, Guide is always useful and then you might not need the Divination school.

2) Warp spiders can easily keep up with Wave serpents

3) I tried giving the guardian defenders a wave serpent to see how they would function as a poor man's dire avengers. This did not work well this game. The serpent got glanced to death and then the guardians were left in no man's land. They died quickly. I can't use a trick like this against a necron list that has multiple squads of immortals. There's no way for me to close the distance before having the serpents shot out from under me.

4) Dark reapers should start completely out of sight and then use the first turn move to get into position. The slow and purposeful will help me to keep them alive long enough to shoot. (They took 7 heavy bolters and a quad gun to the face before I even got a turn)

5) The warwalkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lances was a nice combo. The squad killed 2 rhinos and 2 pentient engines in 4 turns :)


The highlight of the game for me was puppet mastering the Necron jetbike unit and delivering 5 blast templates to the heavy bolter squad in the aegis defense line :)


How many Serpents did you bring and what were you trying to do with them? Last match I played I had four Serpents full of Guardians so there was no way they could stop me.

Necrons are a bit tough because they glance a lot.. but you should still be getting decent cover saves. Holo-fields on your lead tank is a must.

[DarkLink]

The more I read the rules and look at Banshees (yes another Banshee post) the more I think it is just the grenades/I1 issue holding them back from being quite good. With a bit of synergy they would be very useful as a counter attack unit as suggested and also as a first wave attack unit IF they could be sure they wouldn't be striking simultaneously.

Still wouldn't be a good offensive assault unit without either being much more durable or getting an assault vehicle. Otherwise they suffer from the same problem as bloodletters.


My first game (against Necrons and Sisters) was a bust with them. I did learn a couple of things:

1) The Farseer is a lot more versatile now. She ended up with Prescience, Doom, Puppet Master. My thoughts are this on picking her powers. It's best to roll Runes of Fate first. If you get something you can't use, Guide is always useful and then you might not need the Divination school.


Getting Prescience and Guide is awesome, too.



3) I tried giving the guardian defenders a wave serpent to see how they would function as a poor man's dire avengers. This did not work well this game. The serpent got glanced to death and then the guardians were left in no man's land. They died quickly. I can't use a trick like this against a necron list that has multiple squads of immortals. There's no way for me to close the distance before having the serpents shot out from under me.

Yeah, not really impressed. I've heard a lot of people think the exact opposite, that Dire Avengers are now overpriced Guardians, and I'm not buying it yet. That extra 6" is a big deal, even with Battle Focus.

[chicop76]

Still wouldn't be a good offensive assault unit without either being much more durable or getting an assault vehicle. Otherwise they suffer from the same problem as bloodletters.



Getting Prescience and Guide is awesome, too.



Yeah, not really impressed. I've heard a lot of people think the exact opposite, that Dire Avengers are now overpriced Guardians, and I'm not buying it yet. That extra 6" is a big deal, even with Battle Focus.


Unless those bloodletters have a 3+ invulnerable save.

[SeekingOne]

My first game (against Necrons and Sisters) was a bust with them. I did learn a couple of things:

1) The Farseer is a lot more versatile now. She ended up with Prescience, Doom, Puppet Master. My thoughts are this on picking her powers. It's best to roll Runes of Fate first. If you get something you can't use, Guide is always useful and then you might not need the Divination school.

2) Warp spiders can easily keep up with Wave serpents

3) I tried giving the guardian defenders a wave serpent to see how they would function as a poor man's dire avengers. This did not work well this game. The serpent got glanced to death and then the guardians were left in no man's land. They died quickly. I can't use a trick like this against a necron list that has multiple squads of immortals. There's no way for me to close the distance before having the serpents shot out from under me.

4) Dark reapers should start completely out of sight and then use the first turn move to get into position. The slow and purposeful will help me to keep them alive long enough to shoot. (They took 7 heavy bolters and a quad gun to the face before I even got a turn)

5) The warwalkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lances was a nice combo. The squad killed 2 rhinos and 2 pentient engines in 4 turns :)


The highlight of the game for me was puppet mastering the Necron jetbike unit and delivering 5 blast templates to the heavy bolter squad in the aegis defense line :)

Could you elaborate, what was your list and where did you put your Farseer?

[Eldar_Atog]

How many Serpents did you bring and what were you trying to do with them? Last match I played I had four Serpents full of Guardians so there was no way they could stop me.

Necrons are a bit tough because they glance a lot.. but you should still be getting decent cover saves. Holo-fields on your lead tank is a must.

I had 2 Serpents. One with storm guardians and 1 with defenders. They also had a squad of warp spiders with them. Unfortunately, I had to knock the list down from 1500 points to 1250 so I had to trim out most of my upgrades and my third wave serpent. That and facing a strong Necron force doomed me from the start.

Thats why I am not dwelling too much on the failures of the list. Really wish I could have used the original list... It looked like a nice hammer and anvil list.

[Defenestratus]

I had 2 Serpents. One with storm guardians and 1 with defenders. They also had a squad of warp spiders with them. Unfortunately, I had to knock the list down from 1500 points to 1250 so I had to trim out most of my upgrades and my third wave serpent. That and facing a strong Necron force doomed me from the start.

Thats why I am not dwelling too much on the failures of the list. Really wish I could have used the original list... It looked like a nice hammer and anvil list.

Yeah low points games are going to be tough - our stuff is pricey :(

[DarkLink]

Unless those bloodletters have a 3+ invulnerable save.

Yes, giving Banshees a 3++ would make them pretty good ;).

[chicop76]

Yes, giving Banshees a 3++ would make them pretty good ;).

They can have +2 normal save and +2 cover save.

[Sainhann]

There we go. That's what I'm talking about. I can't believe all the whining I've been hearing about the new codex. As fast as some of the whining started, you couldn't have taken the time to see what changed for the better. I'm two days in with the new 'dex and I'm amazed at how many goodies I keep finding. My only disappointment so far? I think Autoarchs should be better. I'd even be willing to pay more points for them. To match the fluff they should be MUCH better at all around buffing of their armies. Instead, they are a cheap choice that makes a bit off a difference with reserves (albeit this could be game changing).

Now try that against a Imperial Guard army that is Infantry heavy. My current 2000 Imperial Guard army has 190 models in it and 186 of them are infantry.

Oh and there is a lot of firepower in this army as well 20 Grenade Launchers, 19 Flamers for starters.

Though I just might need to drop 50 points of something so I can get another 5 more Snipers bringing the army up to 195 models with 15 Snipers instead of the ten.

Just wished that I could do this if my Eldar Army but that will never happen.

[eldargal]

Maybe in all the new codex excitement folks didn't notice version 1.1 of the errata came out friday night. Banshee masks entry was completely changed...

First round of combat, model wearing banshee mask gives i10, even if it charged through difficult terrain. nullify defensive grenades.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570042a_Eldar_v1.1.pdf
That FAQ is dated 2012...

[cebalrai]

The new Eldar codex was declared overpowered by multiple people in my FLGS last night after an Eldar player demolished Tau with a 2+ rerollable save seer council. Too funny.

[Learn2Eel]

The new Eldar codex was declared overpowered by multiple people in my FLGS last night after an Eldar player demolished Tau with a 2+ rerollable save seer council. Too funny.

Oh dear. Lol.

[rle68]

Maybe in all the new codex excitement folks didn't notice version 1.1 of the errata came out friday night. Banshee masks entry was completely changed...

First round of combat, model wearing banshee mask gives i10, even if it charged through difficult terrain. nullify defensive grenades.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570042a_Eldar_v1.1.pdf

the problem with this is the pdf came out before the codex so TECHNICALLY thats for the old codex

[chicop76]

The new Eldar codex was declared overpowered by multiple people in my FLGS last night after an Eldar player demolished Tau with a 2+ rerollable save seer council. Too funny.

It's not overpowered. It cost too much and anything can easily deal with it.

[cebalrai]

It's not overpowered. It cost too much and anything can easily deal with it.

I know it's not OP. But most things will struggle to kill fortuned 2+/4++ jetcouncils.

[chicop76]

I know it's not OP. But most things will struggle to kill fortuned 2+/4++ jetcouncils.

I know. I was being sarcastic.

[Eldar_Atog]

Could you elaborate, what was your list and where did you put your Farseer?

Sorry about the late reply, work has been silly.

The list was basically this:

Farseer, no upgrades. Telepathy, Runes of Fate, Divination

10 Defenders with Star Cannon Platform. Wave serpent with bright lance. Warlock included
10 Storm Guardians with 2 flamers. Wave serpent with bright lance. Warlock included
5 Rangers

Warlock powers had no impact

10 Warp Spiders. No Exarch

3 Warwalkers, Scatter laser/bright lance on each

5 Dark Reapers with Exarch. Exarch with missle laucher, Fast Shot and Night Vision

The Farseer lurked in cover the whole game with the Reapers and war walkers. She would cast blessings and Malidictions and then after attempting Puppet Master, she would use Battle Focus to dive back unseen into cover

[Sainhann]

I know it's not OP. But most things will struggle to kill fortuned 2+/4++ jetcouncils.

Not if you pour enough fire into it or kill off the Farseer.

[eldargal]

Not if you pour enough fire into it or kill off the Farseer.
Congratulations you've unlocked the secret of dealing with every ******* major threat in the game.:rolleyes:

[Sainhann]

Sorry about the late reply, work has been silly.

The list was basically this:

Farseer, no upgrades. Telepathy, Runes of Fate, Divination

10 Defenders with Star Cannon Platform. Wave serpent with bright lance. Warlock included
10 Storm Guardians with 2 flamers. Wave serpent with bright lance. Warlock included
5 Rangers

Warlock powers had no impact

10 Warp Spiders. No Exarch

3 Warwalkers, Scatter laser/bright lance on each

5 Dark Reapers with Exarch. Exarch with missle laucher, Fast Shot and Night Vision

The Farseer lurked in cover the whole game with the Reapers and war walkers. She would cast blessings and Malidictions and then after attempting Puppet Master, she would use Battle Focus to dive back unseen into cover

So what was the point value of this force?

Just interested since this is just 49 models.

[chicop76]

So what was the point value of this force?

Just interested since this is just 49 models.

Looks like 750-1k.

[Demonus]

Thought he said 1250.

Yup I got about 1200 with what is listed.

[Eldar_Atog]

Thought he said 1250.

Yup I got about 1200 with what is listed.

Yup, it was supposed to be 1250. It wouldn't surprise me if I was 50 points short. I had to butcher my 1500 point list at the last minute and remove another Guardian Defender squad in transport/flyer and tag in the rangers as a last minute addition.

Add that to getting paired against a heavy Necron Immortal army with flyer. That's why I am trying to focus on just what seemed to work for me. I had 2 strikes against me before I even got to the table.

[DarkLink]

The new Eldar codex was declared overpowered by multiple people in my FLGS last night after an Eldar player demolished Tau with a 2+ rerollable save seer council. Too funny.

What sort of crappy Tau list didn't have enough markerlights to deny cover? Though durable jetbikes are still good against Tau, just get into assault and they fold.

[chicop76]

What sort of crappy Tau list didn't have enough markerlights to deny cover? Though durable jetbikes are still good against Tau, just get into assault and they fold.

I was thinking the same, or why not take a cheap upgrade which denies cover.

[cebalrai]

What sort of crappy Tau list didn't have enough markerlights to deny cover? Though durable jetbikes are still good against Tau, just get into assault and they fold.

The Jetseers have a 3+ armor save and there was a Warlock that boosted it to 2+. And Fortune to reroll.

[Aegwymourn]

No Riptide to just tarpit the council? Sure they'll do a decent amount of wounds, but nothing is AP2/1 correct? Meanwhile you might step on one or two a turn.

[chicop76]

The ap 2 from the riptides could had missed or got hot.

[Apollinarius]

The new Eldar codex was declared overpowered by multiple people in my FLGS last night after an Eldar player demolished Tau with a 2+ rerollable save seer council. Too funny.

2+ cover means that they are turbo boosting. Turbo boosting means they aren't able to cast offensive spells or anything else. If it's 2+ armor, then I laugh at the silly Tau player that doesn't have boatloads of AP2 on his list. Doesn't every shooting weapon these days have AP2 or a million shots?

Also, don't Tau have something that negates jink saves?

[Apollinarius]

The Jetseers have a 3+ armor save and there was a Warlock that boosted it to 2+. And Fortune to reroll.

How often did that warlock successfully cast his spell with that juicy Ld8?

[cebalrai]

No Riptide to just tarpit the council? Sure they'll do a decent amount of wounds, but nothing is AP2/1 correct? Meanwhile you might step on one or two a turn.


Are you kidding me? A Riptide needs a 5 to hit, 2+ wound, and then 75% of its wounds get negated by the 4++ rerollable. Meanwhile the Council hits on a 3+, wounds on a 2+, and the Riptide has to sweat out its save, possibly getting its armor rolled back to 3+ by a Warlock. And if its morale breaks it's going to get swept.


How often did that warlock successfully cast his spell with that juicy Ld8?

72.2% of the time I imagine. And there may have been more than one of them able to try casting it.


2+ cover means that they are turbo boosting. Turbo boosting means they aren't able to cast offensive spells or anything else. If it's 2+ armor, then I laugh at the silly Tau player that doesn't have boatloads of AP2 on his list. Doesn't every shooting weapon these days have AP2 or a million shots?

Also, don't Tau have something that negates jink saves?


Boatloads of AP2 all against one unit that has a 4++ rerollable? That sounds like a sound strategy to you, to ignore the rest of the Eldar player's list just so that a tiny percentage of the Tau player's AP2 kills 0-2 Warlocks?

No, if Tau are dumping all their AP2 big guns on an Eldar unit that specializes in negating big guns, that's a win for the Eldar.

[cebalrai]

dbl post

[Apollinarius]

Boatloads of AP2 all against one unit that has a 4++ rerollable? That sounds like a sound strategy to you, to ignore the rest of the Eldar player's list just so that a tiny percentage of the Tau player's AP2 kills 0-2 Warlocks?

You wait for him to fail one of his many spells. Fearless, or armor boost, or Fortune. If he fails fearless, pin him. If he fails armor, kill him with AP3. If he fails fortune, unload everything on him to wipe him in one turn. Preferably with S6 AP2 so that you instant death the Farseer and don't have to worry about his multiple wounds. In the meantime, let the 400pt unit run around and do its thing.

I play Eldar. The first thing I see when someone mentions a seer council to me is a target for my Wraithknight to shoot at. Those 3 S6 AP2 twin-linked blasts will take out many times their value in squishy warlocks, fortune or not.

I don't know what the Tau guy has. I never faced Tau and only ever saw it played as a spectator. From what I've seen, the volume of fire they can put down at 24" is enough to kill anything. A Farseer with fortune is easy to ignore. One without fortune is easy to kill.

[chicop76]

Are you kidding me? A Riptide needs a 5 to hit, 2+ wound, and then 75% of its wounds get negated by the 4++ rerollable. Meanwhile the Council hits on a 3+, wounds on a 2+, and the Riptide has to sweat out its save, possibly getting its armor rolled back to 3+ by a Warlock. And if its morale breaks it's going to get swept.



72.2% of the time I imagine. And there may have been more than one of them able to try casting it.




Boatloads of AP2 all against one unit that has a 4++ rerollable? That sounds like a sound strategy to you, to ignore the rest of the Eldar player's list just so that a tiny percentage of the Tau player's AP2 kills 0-2 Warlocks?

No, if Tau are dumping all their AP2 big guns on an Eldar unit that specializes in negating big guns, that's a win for the Eldar.



Lieess. I don't care how much you re roll. All I have to do is drop a rip tide plate of doom and they dead end of story. Heck I through in 12 fire warriors in combat with that squad what they do now. They get butt stroked to death. Even with re roll in almost the same Words as deborder I can kill a zonathorpe with at least 2 missle shots, heck is two strength 8 wounds can kill a Zonathorpe I know a Strength 8 pie plate can easily kill them.

All I have to do is fire everyone at the council they die. Noting lives to everything. It's not op. It's just over costed and a garbae unit easily dealt with. Not like the rest of your eldar army is a threat. I win if I kill your 1k point seer council that cost half your army.

[cebalrai]

You wait for him to fail one of his many spells. Fearless, or armor boost, or Fortune. If he fails fearless, pin him. If he fails armor, kill him with AP3. If he fails fortune, unload everything on him to wipe him in one turn. Preferably with S6 AP2 so that you instant death the Farseer and don't have to worry about his multiple wounds. In the meantime, let the 400pt unit run around and do its thing.

I play Eldar. The first thing I see when someone mentions a seer council to me is a target for my Wraithknight to shoot at. Those 3 S6 AP2 twin-linked blasts will take out many times their value in squishy warlocks, fortune or not.

I don't know what the Tau guy has. I never faced Tau and only ever saw it played as a spectator. From what I've seen, the volume of fire they can put down at 24" is enough to kill anything. A Farseer with fortune is easy to ignore. One without fortune is easy to kill.

Okay well I already said he had fortune. And fortune is successful 92%of the time.

I have no idea why you're carrying on about Wraithknight guns killing warlocks.

[chicop76]

Okay well I already said he had fortune. And fortune is successful 92%of the time.

I have no idea why you're carrying on about Wraithknight guns killing warlocks.

Everyone says they suck, so they must suck and easily dealt with. Oh I forgot this one. The Eldar player had to be playinga noob and that's why the council did so well.

[Apollinarius]

Okay well I already said he had fortune. And fortune is successful 92%of the time.

I have no idea why you're carrying on about Wraithknight guns killing warlocks.

S6 is instant death. That means your farseer needs to fail only one save to die. When he passes fortune cast (and he will fail it, maybe not every game, but when he fails it he will die).

Seer council was not invincible before otherwise everyone would have been running it and winning with it. The only thing that changed is that your warlock powers are no longer guaranteed and you are more likely to fail your fortune cast because of no embolden and no runes of witnessing.

You can do the math on how likely you were to fail a fortune cast before compared to now. Not counting for runes, just embolden, your failure chance is 3/36 or 1/12 now compared to 9/1296 or 1/144 before. That's 12 times more likely to fail. For every game you had it fail with the old farseer, it will fail 12 times with the new one. That's just the benefit of embolden's reroll and not runes of witnessing.

Yes, if you're lucky with your rolls, you'll do just fine. But all it takes is one bad roll.

[cebalrai]

Lieess. I don't care how much you re roll. All I have to do is drop a rip tide plate of doom and they dead end of story.

LOL no. Math matters bro. Let's be generous and say that the Jetcouncil was bunched up for some reason and your plate doesn't scatter, giving you six hits. One fails to wound so that's five wounds. Then the 4++ rerollable hits and you now have one dead Warlock. Thank you very much, you just wasted your Riptide.


Heck I through in 12 fire warriors in combat with that squad what they do now. They get butt stroked to death.

Throw 12 Fire Warriors in CC against a Seer Council and the FW's morale breaks and they all get swept, then it's the Eldar player's turn.


All I have to do is fire everyone at the council they die. Noting lives to everything. It's not op. It's just over costed and a garbae unit easily dealt with.

Oh so if Tau just fire their whole 1500 points at one unit and it dies, that unit is garbage. You don't see the flaw in that logic? :confused:


Not like the rest of your eldar army is a threat.

LOL you're a trip. Yeah you just wasted your Riptide and lord knows what else on a unit that probably survived. 1500 points of Eldar are standing in your face putting your models back in your box, forcing pinning and morale checks up and down your line.

[Regnir]

Hey, Regnir, think you can swing an Elf force? Deffie sounds lonely. ;)

I should read forums more often.

I don't know, I might be too busy building my 6 Riptide/2 Wraithknight Iyanden allied army...

[cebalrai]

S6 is instant death. That means your farseer needs to fail only one save to die. When he passes fortune cast (and he will fail it, maybe not every game, but when he fails it he will die).

Seer council was not invincible before otherwise everyone would have been running it and winning with it. The only thing that changed is that your warlock powers are no longer guaranteed and you are more likely to fail your fortune cast because of no embolden and no runes of witnessing.

You can do the math on how likely you were to fail a fortune cast before compared to now. Not counting for runes, just embolden, your failure chance is 3/36 or 1/12 now compared to 9/1296 or 1/144 before. That's 12 times more likely to fail. For every game you had it fail with the old farseer, it will fail 12 times with the new one. That's just the benefit of embolden's reroll and not runes of witnessing.

Yes, if you're lucky with your rolls, you'll do just fine. But all it takes is one bad roll.


I've had it fail before even with RoW. It's rare but what you do is move behind LOS-blocking cover. You're acting like a unit with a 48" move doesn't have any options.

And I never said seer councils were OP or invincible. Your argument is against... not me.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I swear you guys like playing theoryhammer more than you do the actual game, sometimes. ;)

[cebalrai]

I swear you guys like playing theoryhammer more than you do the actual game, sometimes. ;)

Lol. I'm painting up a new Ulthwe Wraithlord while I do this.

[chicop76]

I swear you guys like playing theoryhammer more than you do the actual game, sometimes. ;)

Theory hammer at least you cocider what x unit does. Here we play like the unit stands still, no terrain, no supporting units and y which is the dream unit people rarly take or can take is pitted against x and x sucks and always loses. If x does well it was due to the person in game playing against x was a noob.

Now I remember why I left a while back. Now I figure I'll just have fun.

I think 10 grots deep stiking can assault and roll that seer council!

[Lord Sandwich]

Funny thing I noticed: singing spears are now always S9 when thrown, even against non-vehicles. Warlock Councils + singing spears + Jinx = dead Paladins/Nobs/what have you. Fancy that.

[cebalrai]

Theory hammer at least you cocider what x unit does. Here we play like the unit stands still, no terrain, no supporting units and y which is the dream unit people rarly take or can take is pitted against x and x sucks and always loses. If x does well it was due to the person in game playing against x was a noob.

Now I remember why I left a while back. Now I figure I'll just have fun.

I think 10 grots deep stiking can assault and roll that seer council!


I agree, the Council fears hordes. It's horrible against them. If it can get a 2+ rerollable though it's not going to lose much but it's going to risk getting very bogged down. But generally yeah, lots of little attacks will pose more of a thread. Going back to Riptide plates though, a bunch of guys with 4++ rerollable are just about the worst possible target for that weapon. Like I illustrated, it should kill about one Warlock. But the guy's answer won't change I bet.

And LOL about your comment of considering units in isolation. One of the guys here is twisting that misconception even further, taking the Seer Council in isolation facing off against an entire Tau list.


Funny thing I noticed: singing spears are now always S9 when thrown, even against non-vehicles. Warlock Councils + singing spears + Jinx = dead Paladins/Nobs/what have you. Fancy that.


Ah, missed that.

"Hey Tau Commander Suit, CATCH!!!"

[cebalrai]

dbl post because I'm a klutz today.

[Defenestratus]

I should read forums more often.

I don't know, I might be too busy building my 6 Riptide/2 Wraithknight Iyanden allied army...

*invests in GK force weapon spam*

[chicop76]

I agree, the Council fears hordes. It's horrible against them. If it can get a 2+ rerollable though it's not going to lose much but it's going to risk getting very bogged down. But generally yeah, lots of little attacks will pose more of a thread. Going back to Riptide plates though, a bunch of guys with 4++ rerollable are just about the worst possible target for that weapon. Like I illustrated, it should kill about one Warlock. But the guy's answer won't change I bet.

And LOL about your comment of considering units in isolation. One of the guys here is twisting that misconception even further, taking the Seer Council in isolation facing off against an entire Tau list.


I think the best one is if x winged prince enters combat. Umm how are you gonna pull that off. I am winged and you can't escape. Ok let's ignore the fact I can double your distance in movement.

Not saying it's immpossible to assault the council. Just saying the council player can make that very difficul to do.

Yeah instant kill on those paladins with at least 3+ armour or hopefully 4+.

I wonder if orcs will get old choppas back making saves a 4+.

Terrain is a big thing though. Some places play with little or no terrain while others have a lot of terrain. I always do better with a lot of terrain. However I hate a lot of line of sight blocking terrain. Los terrain benefits some armies way too much.

[Kyban]

I should read forums more often.

I don't know, I might be too busy building my 6 Riptide/2 Wraithknight Iyanden allied army...
I believe it will just be one wraithknight, it looks like the rule makes it your warlord while still being an HS slot.

[chicop76]

*invests in GK force weapon spam*

That's not enough. You need force hammers. I learned t6 against units witout rad it a great thing. Rad and Ic hasting hammerhand on unit is a bad thing.

[DarkLink]

Funny thing I noticed: singing spears are now always S9 when thrown, even against non-vehicles. Warlock Councils + singing spears + Jinx = dead Paladins/Nobs/what have you. Fancy that.

Good luck hitting Paladins with that. They'll have Draigo in them, which makes them a higher ML than Warlocks for a 4+ Deny the Witch, and the Aegis puts you down to Ld 7, so you've only got a 29% chance of successfully casting the power. Plus you have to maneuver around Draigo to hit the Paladins themselves for the ID. And you're still AP -, so they'll get 3+ armor. I'd stick to Wraithguard and/or Fire Dragons.

[Demonus]

Good luck hitting Paladins with that. They'll have Draigo in them, which makes them a higher ML than Warlocks for a 4+ Deny the Witch, and the Aegis puts you down to Ld 7, so you've only got a 29% chance of successfully casting the power. Plus you have to maneuver around Draigo to hit the Paladins themselves for the ID. And you're still AP -, so they'll get 3+ armor. I'd stick to Wraithguard and/or Fire Dragons.

Is my math that bad? How is it a 29% chance to roll a 7 or less on 2d6? or you including the deny as well?

[DarkLink]

That's with a 4+ DtW.

[Sainhann]

Thing is Seer Council are not cheap take a Council of six.

Farseer - 100 points with no upgrades
Warlock - 35 points x 5 is 175 points

So 275 points without any upgrades.

Add in upgrades I.E. bikes and other stuff and yes this unit is going to be over 400 points or 22-24% of a 1850 army.

For most Eldar players that will be far to many points in a unit that can be killed in a variety of ways.

[chicop76]

Is my math that bad? How is it a 29% chance to roll a 7 or less on 2d6? or you including the deny as well?

It's 50%. I agree with link since they are armour 2 and can at least deny at a 5+. The spears still wound and causes saves. At best you might kill one unless some one rolls a bunch of ones. However a it's less than 50% due to the Farseer having to even cast before they deny which bring it down to like a 42% chance of getting through with a farseer.

However it's probably a 29% chance for a warlock to cast. You need 7 on a roll of 2d6 and have to get through a 5 or 4+ deny the witch. It's more of a 25% chance for a warlock to lower that units save. Let's not even mention if a dreadnought happens to be near by.

You know I should had looked to see if eldar and grey knights could had been allies before the ward nerf.

[SeekingOne]

The list was basically this:
(snip)

The Farseer lurked in cover the whole game with the Reapers and war walkers. She would cast blessings and Malidictions and then after attempting Puppet Master, she would use Battle Focus to dive back unseen into cover

Thanks! I see now, good idea with the Farseer.

[Defenestratus]

Thanks! I see now, good idea with the Farseer.

I can just imagine a farseer in flowing robes throwing open a door to a building, running a few yards outside, putting his fingers to his temples ... some lightning popping out of his eyes... then running back inside and slamming the door shut real quick.

Repeated over and over again :P

[chicop76]

Thanks! I see now, good idea with the Farseer.

Taking a solitare farseer might be a really good move. 2+ re rollable cover sounds nice. Or give him run at 24".

To bad you can run shoot run with that 24" move. Wouldn't be to hard to throw a strength 9 attack at rear armour.

[cebalrai]

Thing is Seer Council are not cheap take a Council of six.

Farseer - 100 points with no upgrades
Warlock - 35 points x 5 is 175 points

So 275 points without any upgrades.

Add in upgrades I.E. bikes and other stuff and yes this unit is going to be over 400 points or 22-24% of a 1850 army.

For most Eldar players that will be far to many points in a unit that can be killed in a variety of ways.


This doesn't make any sense to me. Every unit can be killed in a variety of ways. Part of the point of the Seer Council is that they can be killed in fewer ways than the vast majority of other units. 3+/4++ or 2+/4++ rerollable with the speed to get away from the things that really can threaten them makes them extremely bad targets. If my opponents are shooting at my seer council and killing few or none of them, I'm winning.

[scadugenga]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Every unit can be killed in a variety of ways. Part of the point of the Seer Council is that they can be killed in fewer ways than the vast majority of other units. 3+/4++ or 2+/4++ rerollable with the speed to get away from the things that really can threaten them makes them extremely bad targets. If my opponents are shooting at my seer council and killing few or none of them, I'm winning.

This is what non eldar players will never understand. And I'm okay with that, frankly.

[chicop76]

This is what non eldar players will never understand. And I'm okay with that, frankly.

I second that. Let them be the ignorant.

[DarkLink]

That's why I'm not really scared of the Seer council, and never have been. They're tough to kill, but other than tying up a unit and maybe casting a malediction or two (but I play Grey Knights, so good luck with the negative penalties to your leadership and my boosted DtW) and some blessings, what are they really going to do?


I can just imagine a farseer in flowing robes throwing open a door to a building, running a few yards outside, putting his fingers to his temples ... some lightning popping out of his eyes... then running back inside and slamming the door shut real quick.

Repeated over and over again :P

Just remember that Blessings and Maledictions are cast at the beginning of movement, and require LOS, so you can't cast them after moving into LOS.

[Learn2Eel]

That's why I'm not really scared of the Seer council, and never have been. They're tough to kill, but other than tying up a unit and maybe casting a malediction or two (but I play Grey Knights, so good luck with the negative penalties to your leadership and my boosted DtW) and some blessings, what are they really going to do?



Just remember that Blessings and Maledictions are cast at the beginning of movement, and require LOS, so you can't cast them after moving into LOS.

They are mostly just a fire magnet and a glorified tarpit now. In the previous codex, having guaranteed Destructor meant the unit could put out some serious hurt to most units.

[chicop76]

Just remember that Blessings and Maledictions are cast at the beginning of movement, and require LOS, so you can't cast them after moving into LOS.

Yup. Frustrating when you get slaanech for daemon power 1-2. You have to be 18" away before you move. 18" in the beginning of the movement phase is a pain. Although 24" seem easy to pull off. The problem with 18" usually means at time you could had been assaulted your self.

With eldar the 2d6 assault move would be helpful in pulling that off.

Blessing isn't too hard to pull off though. Too bad the default warlock power doesn't stack and the stackable ones would be random rolls.

Thinking about it Daemons have more psychics, reliable than Eldar. I can field 8 psychics to 12 vs eldar, but I can lay down 25 powers compared to 17 powers and all mine is at leadership 10 and I have acess to 5 differant power trees if I go all tzentch I can say 7 if I go nurgle and slaanech, problem with that my leadership drops and less powers. Grey Knights can drop a ton of psykers, but they are pretty limited. Oh I forgot pink horrors are psykers too. That would be 14 vs 12 with 6 more castable powers for almost 30 psychic powers a turn. I guess nids is the second most with 17 psykers with 18 castable powers but they can have like almost 30 powers they can use.

Thinking about it eldar seems like the 4th potent psychic army. Daemons 1st, tyranids 2nd, grey knights 3rd, eldar 4th

I was gonna list Grey Knights 4th. I gave them 3rd due to even their vehicles are psychic. Only army where everyone is psychic, besides a tzeentch build list. Anyway they are the most limited due to everyone having either hammerhand, or insert squad power. The hq units is where the psykers with actual choice come in, but you are limited to 2. While daemons have 8, nids a lot, eldar 12 that can have differant powers to meat or deal with differant situations.

The seer council is throwing strength 9 shots though. I wouldn't over look that.

[DarkLink]

Eldar can take 36 psykers for 44 powers total in a double FOC. Two 10-man warlocks, one per primary detachment, four Farseers, 6 Harlequin squads with Veil of Tears, and six Hemlock flyers. A minimum of 2930pts, I think.

[chicop76]

I was counting only one detachment adding another just helps the daemons more as well as tyranids

Good call on the Harlequins and fighters

For one detachment Eldar have:
Eldrad
Farseer
10 warlocks
3 Harlequins
3 planes
That gives you 18 psykrs and 23 powers with 4 differant power pools and 23 powers you can cast at one time.

Daemons Mono Tzeentch
Fateweaver
4 Master 3 Heralds
6 pink horror
3 Master 3 Prince

14 psykers with 31 powers which can cast 31 powers at one time with 5 differant power tree (33 differant powers)

Tyranids
Swamlord
Hive tyrant
9 zonathorpes
6 broodlords

17 psykers with 27 differant powers and 19 powers they can cast at one time and have acess to I think 3 trees maybe 4

GreyKnights

Libby
Cortex
Purifiers/ rhino
Purifiers/ rhino
Purifiers/ rhino
Strike/ rhino
Strike/ rhino
4x strike/ rhino
3 x jet pack greyknights
3x dreadnoughts

29 psykers 47 differant powers, can use 31 powers, have acess to 3 differant trees

Daemons may have the less amount, but have acess to the second most powers and can cast the second most powers at one time. What makes them first they have a greater pool of powers to choose from. At most they can choose through 7 differant power pools with droping 2 powers and 2 max casting powers. They are first due to iron arm, endurance, prescience, flame shiled,-5 I with no overwatch, etc. They can have more than 40 differant powers they can select and random roll from.

Greyknights are last due to utility. they have the most and can cast the most, but you will see hammerhand or the vehicle spell cast over and over. No variety in power selection. Which is why 4th.


Thanks to link I will bump Eldar to second and tyranids to 3rd. Even so tyranids and daemons are mostly casting at leadership 10 and with tyranids you can actually randomly roll with all your units.

I put Eldar second due to variety of powers over the nids.

[Sainhann]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Every unit can be killed in a variety of ways. Part of the point of the Seer Council is that they can be killed in fewer ways than the vast majority of other units. 3+/4++ or 2+/4++ rerollable with the speed to get away from the things that really can threaten them makes them extremely bad targets. If my opponents are shooting at my seer council and killing few or none of them, I'm winning.


This is what non eldar players will never understand. And I'm okay with that, frankly.

I have been playing Eldar from when they came out in WD 127.

My point is if you are putting 400 or more points into just six figures you are not going to have much else on the table.

This Codex increased the price of most Eldar units so that means we are putting less things on the table rather than more.

As Darklink has stated I also would not be afraid of my opponent running with a Seer Council because that would mean that I have less things to target.

Plus if you are running a Seer Council you are expecting that unit to win you the battle. But what happens when they don't do what you want?

All I am saying is that you are better off if more units than to count on one small Deathstar unit.

[HERO]

I'm giving this book a 3.5/5.

There's just too many design inconsistency and missed opportunity. Plus, their elite army status just doesn't play well in this edition.
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/06/gds-eldar-review.html

[SeekingOne]

their elite army status just doesn't play well in this edition.


This.

BTW, in my experience it hardly played well before as well, this edition just emphasized the issues.

The so-called "Elite" army, as in "an army that is usually outnumbered but compensates for that with superior quality of units", only works reasonably well when it has a quality advantage in BOTH killing power AND durability. Eldar have zero durability advantage, which undermines the whole concept. The old codex worked reasonably well mostly because it had ways around the units' durability issues, with the most important of them being Fortune. The new codex has nerfed all of those to total unreliability, while simultaneously making most of the stuff more expensive. It just doesn't bode well... Unless updated Wave Serpents prove to be some kind of Unstoppable Weapon of Absolute Annihilation, I don't see anything that would help Eldar to survive attrition.

[cebalrai]

I have been playing Eldar from when they came out in WD 127.

My point is if you are putting 400 or more points into just six figures you are not going to have much else on the table.

This Codex increased the price of most Eldar units so that means we are putting less things on the table rather than more.

As Darklink has stated I also would not be afraid of my opponent running with a Seer Council because that would mean that I have less things to target.

Plus if you are running a Seer Council you are expecting that unit to win you the battle. But what happens when they don't do what you want?

All I am saying is that you are better off if more units than to count on one small Deathstar unit.


That would be 365, not 400 or more. And while that's still a lot of points the question should be whether or not it's worth it in the context of a list's greater strategy. I don't think dismissing it as "makes the rest of your list smaller" is a very complete analysis.

[eldargal]

This.

BTW, in my experience it hardly played well before as well, this edition just emphasized the issues.

The so-called "Elite" army, as in "an army that is usually outnumbered but compensates for that with superior quality of units", only works reasonably well when it has a quality advantage in BOTH killing power AND durability. Eldar have zero durability advantage, which undermines the whole concept. The old codex worked reasonably well mostly because it had ways around the units' durability issues, with the most important of them being Fortune. The new codex has nerfed all of those to total unreliability, while simultaneously making most of the stuff more expensive. It just doesn't bode well... Unless updated Wave Serpents prove to be some kind of Unstoppable Weapon of Absolute Annihilation, I don't see anything that would help Eldar to survive attrition.

I actually disagree completely. This codex is as good a representation of a non-Space Marine elite army as GW have ever released. Make them too durable and they become Space Marines (and thus, boring to play). We still have to be careful with our forces but we can field enough destructive capacity and have enough tricks to help us survive that we can take on most armies comfortably in the hands of a skilled player.

I'd give it 4/5, because there were still missed opportunities.

[cebalrai]

This.

BTW, in my experience it hardly played well before as well, this edition just emphasized the issues.

The so-called "Elite" army, as in "an army that is usually outnumbered but compensates for that with superior quality of units", only works reasonably well when it has a quality advantage in BOTH killing power AND durability. Eldar have zero durability advantage, which undermines the whole concept. The old codex worked reasonably well mostly because it had ways around the units' durability issues, with the most important of them being Fortune. The new codex has nerfed all of those to total unreliability, while simultaneously making most of the stuff more expensive. It just doesn't bode well... Unless updated Wave Serpents prove to be some kind of Unstoppable Weapon of Absolute Annihilation, I don't see anything that would help Eldar to survive attrition.


I don't think Eldar are more than "moderately elite. GK is elite, Eldar are less than that. I don't feel particularly outnumbered against most opponents....

[Learn2Eel]

This.

BTW, in my experience it hardly played well before as well, this edition just emphasized the issues.

The so-called "Elite" army, as in "an army that is usually outnumbered but compensates for that with superior quality of units", only works reasonably well when it has a quality advantage in BOTH killing power AND durability. Eldar have zero durability advantage, which undermines the whole concept. The old codex worked reasonably well mostly because it had ways around the units' durability issues, with the most important of them being Fortune. The new codex has nerfed all of those to total unreliability, while simultaneously making most of the stuff more expensive. It just doesn't bode well... Unless updated Wave Serpents prove to be some kind of Unstoppable Weapon of Absolute Annihilation, I don't see anything that would help Eldar to survive attrition.

Actually, High Elves in Fantasy are identical to Eldar in that sense; hit hard, die easily, small numbers. Different game system obviously, but they have made it work before. It just doesn't appeal to most gamers as it is obviously a difficult army to play well.

[Autarch]

This.

BTW, in my experience it hardly played well before as well, this edition just emphasized the issues.

The so-called "Elite" army, as in "an army that is usually outnumbered but compensates for that with superior quality of units", only works reasonably well when it has a quality advantage in BOTH killing power AND durability. Eldar have zero durability advantage, which undermines the whole concept. \

Gotta totally disagree with this. You can easily run an entirely MEQ Eldar list Autarch, Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Wraithguard, Scorpions, Warp Spiders, Wraithlords, Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Dark Reapers and Rangers when given decent cover. Also the tanks are super durable, skimmers, and become ridiculous when you give them holofields, and spirit stones.

While not as "WOW look at all the wargear" as say my beloved Dark Eldar codex, I never expected WS, BS boosts to all guardians, and all vehicles. All the free powers given out to units like Scorpions, Farseers, Dire Avengers, and even Swooping Hawks. As well as BIG points reduction for Rangers, Jetbikes, Shining Spears.

Thats not even figuring in Battle Trance which is going to have far ranging implications the more we play(shoot and scoot War Walkers anyone?), and the new Bladestorm rule which is fantastic.

Personally very happy. You had to dig through the book a bit to take it all in, but in my opinion the Eldar got a huge boost across the board in terms of stats, and free abilities.

[chicop76]

Eldar takes a brain to play and do well with for the most part. Similiar to dark eldar, but mostly more durable and have less numbers.

Eldar have had problems facing horde armies, but does well against marines, starcannons and dark reapers anyone. Anyway for the most part it's differant, but doesn't suck.

Against dark angels eldar should do rather well. Against Tau it should be a good match up. The biggest advatage Tau have over eldar is striping cover away. Both armies can dish out hurtful shooting attacks. All in all what it will boil down to is combat. The problem with eldar they can easily assult turn 2 and the whole army at 3. The advantage of both armies is they both dish out a ton of fire power, although tau should win out the sit back an shoot game.

What I think is funny is tau 2 months ago took away the sniper advantage of rangers from Eldar. Instead of giving Eldar that advatage back they basically are normal snipers or they all have percesion shots. Not saying pathfinders are bad, thouse upgrade characters are basically dead now. It sill is hard to kill of IC's.

Against chaos marines eldar should do well and against Daemons I would say Daemons probably got that.

Thining I like about Daemons is that army is more specalist that Eldar is. I still trying to figure out what made them drop daemon troops cost by half. It boosted slaanech to awesome levels and helped bloodletters as well. Nurgle and Tzeentench didn't benefit from that. The thing I like about Tzeentch now is to hide all the models, but one behind los blocking terrain. For the most part you will only be able to kill that one guy and you just replace him with another.


I always have said it takes a brain to play Eldar and a mindless monkey to play Marines. Heck when an 8 year old kid does well with marines it's nuff said,

[cebalrai]

The dice gods were on my side last night, but I managed to table a horde Ork/CSM army with the new Eldar codex. Dawn of War deployment and he was spread pretty thin after I deployed first in the middle of my side. Turn one my Vyper stunned his Nob Trukk which slowed his heavy hitters down, while the rest of my force moved flat-out hard left so that he had to come at me more or less single-file. From there 30 Dire Avengers took up defensive positions while Fire Dragons took out his Oblits... And his Vindicator lost its main gun to a Prism lance (Lol).

From there it was absolute meat grindage with casualties on both sides, but much higher for the Orks. And when he got close with one of his large units my Dire Avengers would just battle trance back a few inches to make sure he couldn't assault. Asurmen's unit eventually got assaulted by his late-arriving claw Nobz though which hurt. Counterattack for Asurmen and the Exarch though is pretty cool. All the DAs eventually died except one, but Asurmen emerged unscathed. I used the Warlord power that allows rerolls on 1s on saves which was nice.

One thing I discovered, Wave Serpent shield projectors are exceptionally good against Quad Guns. I took out his Quad Gun on turn 2 with just one Serpent's attack when it wasn't even in range with its' TL shuriken cannons. From now on when I bring a flyer I'm going to try to use this strategy in turn 1-2 to ace the gun...

[SeekingOne]

Actually, High Elves in Fantasy are identical to Eldar in that sense; hit hard, die easily, small numbers. Different game system obviously, but they have made it work before.
That's not true. They happened to make it work at times, and failed at that other times. For instance, HE and DE books in 6th edition of FB were both utter garbage. They actually had to errata half of the DE book changing point costs and stats all over the board, just to make it playable. In HE book only heavy cav units were playable - and that was true only because those were toughest units with best armour in the book that were also priced about equally to knights in other books (so no real 'eliteness' here at all).

[Learn2Eel]

That's not true. They happened to make it work at times, and failed at that other times. For instance, HE and DE books in 6th edition of FB were both utter garbage. They actually had to errata half of the DE book changing point costs and stats all over the board, just to make it playable. In HE book only heavy cav units were playable - and that was true only because those were toughest units with best armour in the book that were also priced about equally to knights in other books (so no real 'eliteness' here at all).

Um, I don't know if you pay attention to Warhammer Fantasy recently, but High Elves and Dark Elves are both very competitive books in 7th/8th Edition. High Elves were actually regarded as the top book in 7th by many until Dark Elves/Vampires/Daemons followed them. So yes, it is true - I didn't say they "always" made it work, did I?

[Caitsidhe]

Against chaos marines eldar should do well

Why do you feel this way? I would think Eldar would dislike the CSM match up.

[40kGamer]

pie plate weapons dont ignore cover saves only flamer templates do.. just fyi

if you let units with flamers get to your guardians your doing something wrong

and btw there may be pie plates that do ignore covers but they are army specific if im not mistaken

Off the top of my head don't forget the rarely seen SM Whirlwinds of doom or the IG Collosus...

[Caitsidhe]

pie plate weapons dont ignore cover saves only flamer templates do.. just fyi

if you let units with flamers get to your guardians your doing something wrong

and btw there may be pie plates that do ignore covers but they are army specific if im not mistaken

I had to laugh a bit here; I'm sorry. Against me, at least, there is very little you can do to avoid my flamers whether they come from Helldrakes or Obliterators doing a Drop & Pop. For the record I think the Eldar did very well by their book. It is a decent book. I'm not keen on them breaking it into two books, but what can you do? I do think Guardians are subpar however, by no fault of their own, and the range issue is going to hamper them. Using them to camp objectives isn't that great either with the rise of so much cover ignoring offensive firepower.

[Eldar_Atog]

Why do you feel this way? I would think Eldar would dislike the CSM match up.

I wouldn't study the Eldar/CSM matchup. The matchup that always gives me issues is Necrons. I've yet to find an Eldar list in 6th that can deal with them besides spamming Dark Reapers.

[eldargal]

Going to be playing my first game with new eldar in about an hour against a friends Necrons. Won't be many new toys as I've only assembled and painted my Crimson Hunters and Hemlocks and it's only 1000pts. I'll write up the list and shove it in the army lists section shortly. I'll try to remember to take notes and get her army list too.

/excited

[chicop76]

Thiniking about it more I think eldar would do well against chaos marines. Chaos marines realy don't have an antiflyer which the 4 strength 8 shot fighter would easily kill the helldrakes. Starcannons and darkreapers = dead anything else. Only thing I can really see is noise marines, which no one plays. I always wonder why since they can ignore cover and have feel no pain. I like nurgle mariness, but denying cover is where it's at. One day some noise marnes will be paired up with some skullcannons that would be a guardsman nightmare. Anyway elves should do well since 1 they should be dishing out a lot of marine killing love and second they out number you.

Heck you telling me that eldar bikes cost almost the same as a marine with marine stats almost. Not only that they are very manuverable and hard to get into combat. Not only that they have rending shooting attacks. Against chaos marines especailly if you take the 20+ point cost marines I will have more bikes to your marines. Did I say they rend so high toughness that.

Than throw in a warlock and the bikes now have a 2+/3+ cover save with a strength 9 ranges weapon.

The only thing Chaos really have going for them vs eldar is helldrakes which against the eldar's fighter crash and burn.

Let's not even go into waveserpents with flamewraiths wiping out whole terminator or marine units quite easily.

I see tau and daemons being better than eldar, but I have a hard time seeing chaos space marines or dark eldar being better than elves.

[40kGamer]

Going to be playing my first game with new eldar in about an hour against a friends Necrons. Won't be many new toys as I've only assembled and painted my Crimson Hunters and Hemlocks and it's only 1000pts. I'll write up the list and shove it in the army lists section shortly. I'll try to remember to take notes and get her army list too.

/excited

I'm jealous! I won't get to properly try out the new rules on the table for a couple weeks! Have fun... hopefully you get to run rings around them. :)

[chicop76]

Off the top of my head don't forget the rarely seen SM Whirlwinds of doom or the IG Collosus...


It's called barrage. Riptides can barrage which is awesome. I can't see you here is a 72" range pie plate at strength 9 ap 2. Eldar have barrage all day in their heavy. I think if they wanted too they can lob 9 large barrage pie plates, lol at horde armies, butyou lose out on better options doing that.

Let's not even talk about guard. I'm not, but you should talk to guard about barrage. If they wanted too they can have the entire army fire barrage.

[eldargal]

I wish I had a Wraithknight to test out, though I might save it for a larger game. Still posing them. Army list is up in the lists section, if anyone is interested.

[Bitrider]

Going to be playing my first game with new eldar in about an hour against a friends Necrons. Won't be many new toys as I've only assembled and painted my Crimson Hunters and Hemlocks and it's only 1000pts. I'll write up the list and shove it in the army lists section shortly. I'll try to remember to take notes and get her army list too.

/excited

Looking forward to the game report. Interested in how the flyers do.

[40kGamer]

I'm loving the new book if for no other reason then it makes the army interesting again. Definitely not the new power army but that just means I won't have to see 50%+ of the 'fair weather' players at a tournament fielding Eldar. :rolleyes:

First build I'm going to test out is Jetbikes and Serpents backed up with Fire Prisms and Nightwings... sorry Crimson Hunter. :( Actually the first time in 6th I've considered a mech heavy list viable... :p

[40kGamer]

It's called barrage. Riptides can barrage which is awesome. I can't see you here is a 72" range pie plate at strength 9 ap 2. Eldar have barrage all day in their heavy. I think if they wanted too they can lob 9 large barrage pie plates, lol at horde armies, butyou lose out on better options doing that.

Let's not even talk about guard. I'm not, but you should talk to guard about barrage. If they wanted too they can have the entire army fire barrage.

Quite true... I was thinking of things that ignore area cover not just measure cover from the center of the blast... Cover saves are useful but tend to be overrated. I'm actually glad to see veil of tears back to it's original form for that very reason.

[chicop76]

Quite true... I was thinking of things that ignore area cover not just measure cover from the center of the blast... Cover saves are useful but tend to be overrated. I'm actually glad to see veil of tears back to it's original form for that very reason.

Talk to a squad of noise marines as they blast you away withyour pretend cover save.

[Regnir]

I believe it will just be one wraithknight, it looks like the rule makes it your warlord while still being an HS slot.

Yeah, I saw the screen cap after I had written that. It was really mostly an inside joke with Defenestratus and Lexington, I don't think that would be a very effective army.

[Caitsidhe]

Thiniking about it more I think eldar would do well against chaos marines. Chaos marines realy don't have an antiflyer

You mean besides a STR-7 Vector strike which will tend to rip the Kill-Kite apart? :D I suppose it all depends on who comes in "after" who. You better have more than one of those Kill-Kites too, because most of the time you are facing multiple Helldrakes. Optimally, if you come in 2nd you can probably kill one and then die to the other(s).

Most CSM players take the Quad-Gun too (I know I do at least) and that tends to blow the Kill-Kite out of the air on arrival, or at the very least force it to Jink. At that point it is unlikely to take a Helldrake down, and the Jink won't work against Vector Strikes. There are other CSM AA options, but most involve volume Twin-Linked fire or allies. I know I make use of both and the Sabre blows the Kill-Kite out of the sky very effectively.



which the 4 strength 8 shot fighter would easily kill the helldrakes.

I agree that the Kill-Kite has a good shot at killing a Helldrake. If all four shots hit, statistically two will glance or penetrate. I don't know if I would go so far as to say it is an easy kill, however, since you really need to glance or penetrate with three unsaved hits to guarantee destruction. I think you have good odds, but it is by no means a sure thing. Good method? Yes. Easy? No.


Starcannons and darkreapers = dead anything else. Only thing I can really see is noise marines, which no one plays. I always wonder why since they can ignore cover and have feel no pain.

Lots of people use Noise Marines (including myself). Most favor Plague Marines, however, for obvious reasons.


I like nurgle mariness, but denying cover is where it's at.

The issue is that CSM players don't need to buy expensive Cult units to deny cover. We have better options for it. At some point denying cover simply becomes overkill and you need more options which are AP-2. It only stands to reason you are going to make the most economic cuts.


One day some noise marnes will be paired up with some skullcannons that would be a guardsman nightmare. Anyway elves should do well since 1 they should be dishing out a lot of marine killing love and second they out number you.

How is this anymore a nightmare than simply hitting them with a Baleflamer or digging a FMC into a blob unit? Dirge casters in support whenever possible of course. Skullcannons would mean Daemon allies and again you are talking about a points problem. Noise Marines are expensive fully kitted out for maximum ignoring of cover. The Skullcannon will be supporting FMCs during an assault not Noise Marines.


Heck you telling me that eldar bikes cost almost the same as a marine with marine stats almost. Not only that they are very manuverable and hard to get into combat. Not only that they have rending shooting attacks. Against chaos marines especailly if you take the 20+ point cost marines I will have more bikes to your marines. Did I say they rend so high toughness that.

Nobody is denying that Eldar bikes are good. I'm just not sure why you think CSM is a great match up given that CSM have the best tools for liquidating bikes. I can only assume there is a very differen't style of battle in your META as opposed to mine. In my area we apply the tactics of Rommel. The German argued that tanks are not for fighting other tanks. They are for butchering infantry. Artillery is for killing tanks. The list goes on and on. In short, a good general doesn't want a fair fight. You stack the deck at the points of impact and strangulation. Someone in my META isn't rushing and toward Eldar to meet them. They are simply waiting for reserves and forcing the Eldar to come toward them. They plan on putting the things which effectively kill Eldar Bikes without a fair chance against the bikes, things which kill infantry without a fair chance against the infantry, and so on down the line. :) Eldar Bikes are great but against someone who also understands they are great (and has tools to terminate them) you have a problem. It forces you to go on the offensive in the extreme to try and earn their keep before the Reaper arrives, or you have to try and hide them way, way in the back losing most of their value. CSM is a bad matchup for PRECISELY this reason.


Than throw in a warlock and the bikes now have a 2+/3+ cover save with a strength 9 ranges weapon.

I don't much care about the Cover Saves (we all know why). You will need to get medium range to use your guns which means you can get affectedby Dirge Casters fairly easily and then assaulted by a BFM and thus eliminated quick or slow (doesn't really matter), and are by virtue of positions vulnerable to straight up VOLUME of fire. I suspect that since Eldar have not had an option for such great saves before that "some" are somewhat overestimating the power of it. Ask Terminators w/Stormshields how they feel about plain old Bolter fire in volume and you will sober up a bit.


The only thing Chaos really have going for them vs eldar is helldrakes which against the eldar's fighter crash and burn.

Actually we have Helldrakes, Burning Brand, Obliterators, Volume of Fire, particularly nasty FMC combinations with Black Mace, and some great choices as allies. We have more than this too, but these things are the ones found in a lot of the tournament lists. We do have the cover ignoring options of Noise Marines although you will generally only run into NM using Bolters, Doom Sirens, and Blastmasters... leaving the Sonic Blasters at home to save points for other things. There are other crazy combinations like Warp Talons of Tzentch (w/Daemon allies to provdie the Tome) which are just starting to appear. There is nothing like a bizarre unit with 2+ Invulnerable save that moves lightning fast. I'm not sold ont his yet but against Eldar it might be effective in hitting fast-moving units to tie them up and/or kill.


Let's not even go into waveserpents with flamewraiths wiping out whole terminator or marine units quite easily.

Why not? You should go into it but this isn't anymore or less effective against CSM than any other kind of army so it doesn't really bare on the match up.


I see tau and daemons being better than eldar, but I have a hard time seeing chaos space marines or dark eldar being better than elves.

Ok. Let's play? Where are you at? :D

[Demonus]

Chaos marines realy don't have an antiflyer which the 4 strength 8 shot fighter would easily kill the helldrakes.

You mean aside from vector striking hell drakes, quad guns, flying DP and Oblits with TL plasma/melta guns? Not to mention Havocs with Auto Cannons out the wazoo. Eldar flier is boss against other fliers, but it is a paper tiger dont forget and if it gets shot, chances are you will have to jink and become bs1 to live. Hell Drakes dont jink. They just need 5++.

Personally I think CSM/Eldar would be a good fight. Lots of templates and Sonic Marines to ignore Eldar cover. Lots of ap3/2 for Eldar to ignore Chaos Armor.

[Sainhann]

Actually, High Elves in Fantasy are identical to Eldar in that sense; hit hard, die easily, small numbers. Different game system obviously, but they have made it work before. It just doesn't appeal to most gamers as it is obviously a difficult army to play well.

Thing is High Elves have been mid-low tier for sometime now because of this.

[DarkLink]

Vector Strike alone does more damage to a Crimson Hunter than the Hunter does to a Heldrake. Not impressed.

[Sainhann]

I don't think Eldar are more than "moderately elite. GK is elite, Eldar are less than that. I don't feel particularly outnumbered against most opponents....

That is because most opponents are Marines or other Eldar or other armies that are heavy in the vehicles/flyer department.

Try facing off against a vehicle lite Imperial Guard army because then you will free outnumbered.

[cebalrai]

That is because most opponents are Marines or other Eldar or other armies that are heavy in the vehicles/flyer department.

Try facing off against a vehicle lite Imperial Guard army because then you will free outnumbered.


Yeah but foot-heavy Guard isn't exactly the best benchmark as to what's elite or not. Regardless, that's why I said 'most'.

[Sainhann]

That would be 365, not 400 or more. And while that's still a lot of points the question should be whether or not it's worth it in the context of a list's greater strategy. I don't think dismissing it as "makes the rest of your list smaller" is a very complete analysis.

From what I have read so far the Warlock Council is a HQ choice. I could be wrong since I got this from a different website and have not yet seen the Codex due to recovering from knee surgery (not getting around much right now).

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/06/eldar-codex-first-impressions.html

But if it is and we are limited to just two HQ's this means that to build a Seer Council you will need to use both HQ's choice to make it.

Plus if you are taking a Farseer you are better off using their abilities to support other units rather then to have them going off to find some Close Combat to get into.

[Kyban]

Warlocks are HQ but don't use a slot. You can take one unit per detachment with up to ten.

[chicop76]

Boy didn't I mention helldrakes and the chaos players use helldrakes as a defense. We understand helldrakes can vector strike. I think any 40 k player understand that. That's why I mention without them what you really have. Using them as a defense only solidify my point that you need them as badly as a baby need milk.

Take the helldrakes out the equation the armies anti-air and deny cover saves takes a huge dive. Anyway I did forgot they had a +5 invulnerable save. Which means 4 strength 8 shots will have a tougher time to kill one also let's ignore bs 4 or bs 5 shooting. Without guide you have a good chance of 3 hits and with re rolls 2-3 pen/ glancing hits. I fogot about the ap 2 will make it easier to bring down.

Let's put it this way before we continue. Let's not hear how good the helldrake is. We all know that. Let's hear what is good besides falling back to the helldrake. Just saying. It's like Bloodthirster this Bloodthirster that. We know already. Stop beating that poor dead horse. Especially when I acknowledge the helldrake as being good. It's silly.

Example: Your army is nothing witout the Helldrake. You can't win without it.
The Amswer I hear: my Helldrake does x, and y, helldrake.. helldrake.. helldrake this, hell drake that.
My answer: I think after mentioning the Helldrake atleast 3x when I said you need the helldrake to even compete against other armies just proved my point don't you think.

So in a nice civil way back up you Chaos Marines without mentioning the helldrake.

You mentioning allies and forticfiations. I didn't due to some tournament may or may not allow that. However that mean eldar can do the same. Tau or Dark Eldar insert combos. I think having 2 battle brother options vs one battle brother option wins out. However a Daemon/ Chaos Marine army is hard to beat. Mainly do to the Daemon part and what Helldrakes( only reason why anyone even bother with chaos allies). I think Tau/ Eldar while strong probably will struggle vs Daemons/ Marines. However this is about judging the actual army on it's merits. If we bring Tau in the mix than we have skyfire for days or Darkeldar which we have 2 more durable fighters we thrown in the mix with strength 9 shots.

I seen noise marines, but for primary chaos I seen mostly nurgle. Although I seen a lot of daemons in chaos marines as well. That said the daemon heavy list always does better than a Chaos Marine heavy side.

Burning Brand and the black mace. You mean one of this you can take in your whole army weapons. Bearning brand is pretty good against elves( unless they go wraithguard/blade). I am a fan of burning brand and wonder why people choose the mace over that is beyond me. The mace, what about it. The fact if you can kill a charater it's effect goes off. The fact you still strength 6 on vector strikes and have to randomly determine if you hit a character and with look out sir makes the black mace somewhat unriliable in doing vector strike black mace. Do you mean strength 8 in combat that if you was 6 wound on 2s already black mace. I think you mean the d6 extra attack rolling on a 1 wounds you black mace. It dies due to high volume of rending shots and dies. Yeah not really that scarry, it's not a bloodthirster with 6 wounds, it will not die and + 4 feel no pain. That type of thirster is scarry.


Damn +2 invulerable saving Tzeentch ally models, that was my ideal. Heck expensive warp talons though. They are pretty.

Did someone say oblits shooting at a flyer instead of the serpents ok.

Wraithgurad can take strength 4 ap 1 flame weapons. If serpent survives and they pop out the can erradicate most units, seeing how flamers of Tzeentch can wipe squads as little as taking 3 while wounding on 4s I can say from experance they can wipe squads, yes vector strike hell drake. That's what you chaos players going to say right. Beat you to it.

Rending shooting and new serpents is going to make a huge differance. The biggest issue now is the fact you have to glance deah the serpent to really kill it. Also you have to get pass a +4 cover save. With only taking glancing hits the serpent is free to move how it likes. I have to double check, but vector strikes may no longer ignore cover. I hate to re read the FQ AGAIN. THE Helldrake even though it gets through the +4 cover it's flame attack still will have trouble getting through the armor and need to hope the serpent player roll a 1 to get a pen.

Tell me you solution meltas right answer +4 cover and glancing. 4 melta shot getting through which is 6 will only glance the serpent twice. You need 9 melta shots to glance death a serpent. That is if all 6 melta hits even causes penatrating hits.

So the squad that rolls up to melta the serpent will get assault 2 shot or strength 4 ap 1 flammed in the face.

I can mention more eldar units, but why reall. Darkreapers with allmissiles with the exarch with skyfire is added fire power against the helldrakes. Let's not mention wraithknight at all or warp spiders.

I still say Eldar is better than Chaos Marines. When I say better if their was a scale of 1-10. Including Daemons and Tau. I just using new books no allies. I would give Daemons 9, Tau 8, Eldar 7.5, and Chaos Marines 7.2 with Dark Angels 5.5. Again new books no necrons, nids, or grey knights ( they may be nerved bad lol). Anyway the only reason Chaos Marines can hang with Eldar is really the Helldrake. If eldar takes it out or helldrake rolls bad eldar wins. If helldrake rolls really good on saves and eldar rolling poorly than marines may win or it would be a very hardwin for eldar.

If eldar wanted helldrake dead hello 3 skyfire broadsides. No more helldrake.

[Caitsidhe]

@Chico: You just spent a lot text being repetitive and making arguments (sort of) that are irrelevant. I'm getting the idea that English is not your first language, so that is sort of a barrier to comprehension on my part. I'm not sure I always understand your meaning. I've already had a few match ups with the new Eldar. They are very solid. They can do a lof of the SAME things (albeit via different methods). This isn't surprising given both books are by the same author who sees 6th Edition in a specific way.

What I was pointing out is that CSM is a bad match up for Eldar for the same reason it is a bad match up for other CSM players. The tools available to the army are particularly hard (and effective) against them. It isn't quite as bad as fighting the mirror match but it is pretty close with CSM getting a slight edge because of the devastating Air-To-Ground edge.

[Sainhann]

Yeah but foot-heavy Guard isn't exactly the best benchmark as to what's elite or not. Regardless, that's why I said 'most'.

Oh foot Guard is far from being Elite it consists of basically just scum foot infantry. The only thing is that there is a lot of this scum foot Infantry. It also does not care if it loses 20-30 models either.

I can put 200 models on the table with my 2000 point Imperial Guard army of which only 4 are vehicles. I never combine squads ever so the max number of models that you can kill in an unit is just 10.

So yes a foot Infantry Imperial Guard army is a very good Benchmark of what is not Elite.

[Renegade]

I think that Banshees are misunderstood. I think that they are are great diversion, escort or counter attacking unit.

I think that as this codex gets used, people will be quite surprised at the things they dismissed that turn out to be good.

[Sainhann]

I actually disagree completely. This codex is as good a representation of a non-Space Marine elite army as GW have ever released. Make them too durable and they become Space Marines (and thus, boring to play). We still have to be careful with our forces but we can field enough destructive capacity and have enough tricks to help us survive that we can take on most armies comfortably in the hands of a skilled player.

I'd give it 4/5, because there were still missed opportunities.

The standard Eldar force is an Elite Army, very little in the way of common troops, I.E. Guardians or Dire Avengers, at best 3 troops selections and normally more than two.

Then it works at trying to max out the Elite, Heavy and with 6th Edition flyers Fast Attack.

It is not an army that will do well with maxing out all 6 troop choices, unlike Imperial Guard.

It heavily depends upon it HQ's section(s) I.E. Farseer to do well.

Because of the point cost of Eldar units and vehicles you will very quickly eat into the standard 1,850 points. A unit of 20 Guardians with the two cheapest weapon platforms is 200 points add in a Warlock and it is 235 points or around 13% of your total force. Want to add in a unit of 10 Dire Avengers with a Wave Serpent plus Exarch you are looking at 300+ points or another 16%.

So in just the two Troop Selections you have nearly 30% of your total points. Sure you could drop the Guardians down to ten but they are better at 20, because I think you get a weapon Platform for every ten.

So in the end you have a very small model count army bare minimum in Troop Selection.

So yes Eldar is a very Elite type army that will have very little room for error or bad dice rolling.

[Sainhann]

I think that Banshees are misunderstood. I think that they are are great diversion, escort or counter attacking unit.

I think that as this codex gets used, people will be quite surprised at the things they dismissed that turn out to be good.

Counter attacking is all they are good for. That is putting them behind your one unit of Guardians and then wait for them to be assaulted.

They are only toughness 3 and their Armor save is 4+ they can't run across the table top because they would be shot to pieces, they can't disembark and then wait a turn before assaulting because they would be shot to pieces.

If the Eldar had an vehicle that they could assault from they would be okay but Eldar doesn't have such a vehicle.

So because of this and actually needing to take something that can do something on the table most Eldar players will not even consider taking them.

[Eldar_Atog]

Counter attacking is all they are good for. That is putting them behind your one unit of Guardians and then wait for them to be assaulted.

They are only toughness 3 and their Armor save is 4+ they can't run across the table top because they would be shot to pieces, they can't disembark and then wait a turn before assaulting because they would be shot to pieces.

If the Eldar had an vehicle that they could assault from they would be okay but Eldar doesn't have such a vehicle.

So because of this and actually needing to take something that can do something on the table most Eldar players will not even consider taking them.

I would like to add a couple of more things if you don't mind :)

Say an eldar player sits down to build an all comers list. He sits down and thinks "I could take a unit of Banshees. If a unit or 2 tries to cross the board, I can hold them on my side till the enemy is about 16 inches away and charge them."

Unfortunately, his next thought is this "Hmm.. But what if I face something like Tau, Guard, or Necrons? They probably won't be charging me unless we are playing relic. Hell, Bob's Necron Immortals never leave cover the whole game. The banshees would either have to cross non man's land or just sit in my deployment zone."

At this point, he'd flip over to the harlequin page and take them instead. They cost more but they can take advantage of cover better. Plus Veil might give him a chance to survive if he faces a gunline army.

As everyone keeps saying, Eldar are more of an elite army. Every unit has a purpose. You can't afford to take a unit that will not accomplish any goals.

[HERO]

Originally Posted by eldargal
I actually disagree completely. This codex is as good a representation of a non-Space Marine elite army as GW have ever released. Make them too durable and they become Space Marines (and thus, boring to play). We still have to be careful with our forces but we can field enough destructive capacity and have enough tricks to help us survive that we can take on most armies comfortably in the hands of a skilled player.

I'd give it 4/5, because there were still missed opportunities.

Missed opportunities is one thing, but just bad design is another. Wraithknight weapons, both aircraft, poor melee units, Banshees, Exarch powers, the entirety of psykers. I would probably put this book worse than Chaos in terms of design, and even worse in terms of actual power.

I've been playing Eldar for 12 years now. They were my second army and my favorite army along side Dark Eldar (both started at the same time). I say with confidence that this edition is just a bad time to play Eldar. There's just too many mediocre units that do a good job killing elite and smaller units such as Eldar. Regardless of how you play, your units will always cost a certain amount. Where other armies in the game saw a noticeable decrease in points and increase in efficiency, Eldar armies saw a shift in points and stayed about the same in efficiency.

Strictly speaking from an external balance perspective, this is a nerf. That and the fact certain elements are just missing from your game (melee units in general, outside the Wraithknight). I mean seriously, make a bucket of competitive Eldar units that you can take to fight an all-comers army in a tournament setting. That number is pretty small unfortunately.

[chicop76]

I don't think banshee's are as bad, as people are making them out to be. That being said however. I think when I sit down and make a list they don't come to mind.

First thing I do is look at the troop choices. I can take 6 bikes that can fire 8 twin linked 12" shots and 6 36" strength 6 shots with all rending or I can take a 5 man squan of dire avengers with a sepent, and the serpent will be outfitted with 6 strength 6 shots all twin linked on top of the shield shot of 12 shots 6/7 and 10 shots coming from my guys, or I can simply tak 3 more bikes and an another cannon for 9 strength 6 and 12 twin linked shots. I get more standard shots, but less hard hitting shots for a little bit less. Overall however I say serpent and bike spam is the way to go. Depending on how much I want to spend( 40% is always a good number).

Once I select my troops, the basic ones I mainly want which if I have spare points I add more. I than go to heavy support. Before I even select I already know I have around 36 strength 6 shots already and a decent amount of anti-troop which by the way are all rending. At this point I want something to pop 13/14 and deal with anti air.

I look at the Vaul platform guys and think it's a very cheap cost. Although it can deny cover not very surviable and not true reliable tank killing or anti air. Good unit, but will pass unless I have the points.

The spinner falls under the Vaul guys. Pass

Falcon I think the Prisom have more options. Pass

Prisom. Did I read that rigth a large strength 5 ap 3 pie plate or a strength 9 ap 1 lance weapon. Wait a unit of terms ds in, I have a strength 7 ap 2 blast that can hit all of them, and you want me to take a falcon. Lol. Not saying I would get one, but I don't see why you would pass on this. Depending on what you are trying to do a keeper or I will come back. It's fragile so that +1 cover save is a must buy. The fact a lascannon can take it out makes it a pass.

Wraithlord: at this point why you need a combat lord to sit back and protect your assests. Honestly going double lance jumps him up to 160. His base cost is good though. I won't say pass, but it is a come back unit. He can sit back and counter charge, cheaper and mor durable than banshees. Also big guns never tire makes this unit a good pick as well.( beware of the sniper kroot and kroot drones, and seeker missiles)

Darkreapers: at the end of the day why. With rockets one guy come close to 40 points. For a basic squad with exarch, with skyfire hits you for atleast 120 points, that's 3 guys(including exarch) no missiles on the other two and no fast shot or nightfight. For that I can take a wraith lord. Personally I think taking a 90 point squad and taking a quad gun would be better, buy doing that no jink save without the need to pay for an exarch. At the end of the day they would easily give away a vp unlike a wraithlord. You can take a squad of 10, but for all that I can take a squad of 10 wraithguard for 20 points more. Like them, but I would say pass.

The WraithKnight: Mcs can fire two weapons and you have a decent amount of troop control, but you need to kill them tanks. Remember Necrons. At this point just taking the basic weapon which is 2 36" ranged strength 10 ap 1 shots is the way to go. Some effort have to be put into killing this guy and great with big guns never tire. Only ranged strength 10 in your army and if you field 3 you the only one in the game that can throw out 6 strength 10 ap 1 shots at 36". Seeing how a hammerhead for one rail gun is slightly more than half I say it's a good buy. Everyone preaches the +5 invulnerable. Dude only strength 5 or greater hurts you and you have 6 wounds. Rockets wound you on 4s. You sit in area terrain bom +5 cover save. You just saved yourself points and losing your ranged attacks. You can drop the two strength 10 shots( whyyyyyy!!!!!) And pick up 3 tau plasma blast at the price of a warlock with a singing spear. So you can have an invul save which you can have the same save in area terrain. I say no. Stay basic. No upgrades are you get slapped through phone now.

At this point you now have anti tank. Anti air is easily covered due to serpents with 6 strength 6 twin linked shots and 6 strength 7 shots. At this point. If you want anti air take allies or a fortification in my opinion.

Elites
Do we pick banshess. Umm no. Honestly I go to fast than elites. Due to scouring. However I not get spiders due to I already have enough strength 6.

Fire dragons of course. Cheap and I get more serpents

After 2 minimum squads of serpents latter I have my choices. Honestly I probably get Harlequins. If not them than d-scythe guard. Than banshees. Yes I will pick banshees over scorpions.

Once all that is done I will get my hq. like I said I would go minimum selections than I will go back and get more with my spare points. If I have enough I would get a council if not than still a farseer on bike at least and a few bike warlocks and join them to the bike squads.

I barely have room for a council, and wraithguard.

[Sainhann]

I would like to add a couple of more things if you don't mind :)

Say an eldar player sits down to build an all comers list. He sits down and thinks "I could take a unit of Banshees. If a unit or 2 tries to cross the board, I can hold them on my side till the enemy is about 16 inches away and charge them."

Unfortunately, his next thought is this "Hmm.. But what if I face something like Tau, Guard, or Necrons? They probably won't be charging me unless we are playing relic. Hell, Bob's Necron Immortals never leave cover the whole game. The banshees would either have to cross non man's land or just sit in my deployment zone."

At this point, he'd flip over to the harlequin page and take them instead. They cost more but they can take advantage of cover better. Plus Veil might give him a chance to survive if he faces a gunline army.

As everyone keeps saying, Eldar are more of an elite army. Every unit has a purpose. You can't afford to take a unit that will not accomplish any goals.

Very true and you said something really, really important.

"build an all comers list"

That should be the first thing any player should be thinking about when building a list.

Sure if you know you are going to face Robert with his Space Marine army you can tailor your list to kill Marines, which Eldar can do fairly well.

You have to put a lot of thought into an Eldar army list that can be useful against not only Marines, but Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orkz etc...

You have to make selections for the following:

HQ's
Elites
Troops
Fast Attack
Heavy Support

Plus your selection will need to fit into the point value of your army, with the standard being around 1,850 because there are very few individuals who will go for 2,000 points because that opens up the double Force Composition Chart.

This site has a good first impression of our choices.

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/06/eldar-codex-first-impressions.html

For HQ's we have a few more choices and since I am at home recovering from knee surgery I have not seen the Codex yet.

But we still have Eldrad, and Yriel plus we now have Illic as name Special Characters.

Yes many will still take Eldrad but like any other Farseer he will have to roll for his powers and he is on foot.

Yriel, well he has some issues like having to reroll any 6's that were rolled for saves. This alone means that I would never use him.

Illic, he give you access to Pathfinders but that is not enough since normal Rangers would be cheaper and you don't need him.

Then their is the Phoenix Lords all of them just as nasty as they were back in 3rd Edition but also very expensive in points.

The Avatar he is a beast and will bring things to the table for you. He does suffers from just having a 5+ Invulnerable save so if you use him expect to see just long he can dance, because your Opponent will open up on him.

Autarch he really has no changes from his 4th Edition counterpart and while some players don't like him he can be tooled to do certain things for far cheaper that the above name characters.

Farseer - this is the prime HQ that many players will have and many will have two. True not as good as Eldrad but he/she will be cheaper.

My choices would be a Farseer and the big guy because I could put the Avatar in with the Guardians. If I could have three I would take an Autarch but only limited to two and it is quite possible I could only take a Farseer since points are always key.

Troops:

Guardians, Dire Avengers, Guardians Jetbikes, & Rangers:

Guardians while I hate that GW can't admit that the nerf they gave them was not needed I would still consider taking 1 and maybe 2 units of them. Each 20 strong and with two platforms (scatter lasers) cheap and good fire power. Whether or not they get a Warlock will depend on if I have points for them.

Dire Avengers - Useful and many players would still use them with Wave Serpents.

Jetbikes - cheaper and fast but like Guardians they need to be close to the enemy. A very good unit to have in reserve and use on about turn 2 or maybe turn 3.

Rangers - Situational but Snipers can bring down things that other things can't plus they have a great range on their weapon.

Fast Attack:

Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears, Crimson Hunter, Vyper Squadron & Hemlock flyer:

S. Hawks can be useful they have the ability to drop a large no cover Grenade template, plus their Haywire Grenades are one of the best things in taking out vehicles. Their issue is living long enough to do so, so very situational.

Warp Spiders - one of the best units Eldar has, fast can hit & run and they pack a world of hurt. I can see some Eldar player taking two 10 units of these guys.

Shining Spears - I doubt that you will see many to these guys because their are just better choices.

Vypers - Got a huge bonus with the BS4 and a they can also put out a volume of fire. I would go with Scatter Laser & S. Cannon Combo so 21 shots at BS4 means they will hit what they are shooting at. Also very fast and do have a invulnerable save.

Out Flyers well both are AV 10 and for their point cost I would rather go with Warp Spiders or Vypers. Sure they can jink but that lousy AV will mean that you will see them crashing and burning the turn after the come on the table.

Heavy Support:

Dark Reapers, Heavy Weapon Btry, Fire Prism, Nightspinner, Falcon, War Walkers, Wraithlord & Wraithknight:

Plenty to choose from but you can only have three max.

My choices would be War Walkers because to their fire power, then Fire Prism's the Wraithknight is the last thing that I would be choosing because it's point cost is the biggest issue. Just selections that are cheaper and have far more fire power.

Elites:

Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, Harlequins, Wraithguard & Wraithblades.

Banshees have been discussed to death here and the thing with them is they are not that great or are they even good.

So Fire Dragons have gone up in price but they are still good at popping tanks though I would have to determine whether or not Wraithguard would be a better choice and putting a unit into a Wave Serpent is better than a Falcon.

For an Eldar army I would consider shooting over Close Combat and would put in units that can dish out a ton of shots each turn.

[chicop76]

Missed opportunities is one thing, but just bad design is another. Wraithknight weapons, both aircraft, poor melee units, Banshees, Exarch powers, the entirety of psykers. I would probably put this book worse than Chaos in terms of design, and even worse in terms of actual power.

I've been playing Eldar for 12 years now. They were my second army and my favorite army along side Dark Eldar (both started at the same time). I say with confidence that this edition is just a bad time to play Eldar. There's just too many mediocre units that do a good job killing elite and smaller units such as Eldar. Regardless of how you play, your units will always cost a certain amount. Where other armies in the game saw a noticeable decrease in points and increase in efficiency, Eldar armies saw a shift in points and stayed about the same in efficiency.

Strictly speaking from an external balance perspective, this is a nerf. That and the fact certain elements are just missing from your game (melee units in general, outside the Wraithknight). I mean seriously, make a bucket of competitive Eldar units that you can take to fight an all-comers army in a tournament setting. That number is pretty small unfortunately.

I can't speak for Dark Angels, but Tau, Daemons, and Chaos Space Marines all got nerfed.

Her is a small quick lis, I can go into a long list of nerfs.

Tau:
1. No team leader choice on suits anymore. Have to pay double for the upgrade character, although team lead wasn't a character which was awesome. For example if I take 3 groups of suits I am paying 15 points more for the upgrade character for those suits

2. No more hardwire systems. So no target lock on tau fire warriors any more or multi to fire both rifle and marker light.

3. Stealth suits can only take 2 drones and must by upgrade charcter to do, when in the past you could just buy 12 drones.

4. No strength 10 rail gun suits.

5. Bonding knife cost much more in points for troops to have, which ironically puts fir warriors back at their old cost.

Daemons:
1. Psychic powers is a nerf. Since I could just use powers automatically without deny the witch. Having psychic powers itself is a huge nerf especally to Tzeentch

2. 10 horrors use to fire 30 strength 4 ap 4 shots, and you can take bolt which is a strength 8 ap 1 ranged weapon. I miss my bolt.

3. Daemonic Gaze is gone no strength 5 ap 3 ranged shots. Miss shooting that 3 times.

4. Use to be learship 10 and now have leadership 7-9, furies have leadership 2. Lost fearless and got fearless from 5th edition. On the bright side I can gtg again.

5. Masque losing ability to move units d6". Which allowed me to turn dreadnoughts around and bunch units together for template love.

Chaos Space Marines:
1. The special marines are no longer troops

I wil have to get back with this one. I actually forgot all the nerfs lol.

Anyway with eldar I don't see units the same.

1. Did the waveserpent can possibly fire 14 strength 6/7 shots at one go. Cannon up grade with scatter laser. Uh and all shots are twin linked by the way. I don't re call serpents doing that.

2. Wraithknights towing 2 strength 10 ap 1 shots that on a 6 can instant kill. What could do that last codex. Please tell me.

3. Waveserpent takes glancing hits on a 2+ really. That's much more durable than before.

4. Farseer with 3 powers. I thought a Faseer can only cast two last edition. Some powers are 2 charges, but you can make them 1 charge with gear.

5. Basic weapons have rending, up was in last codex.

Daemons had it the roughest with the whole army dynamic changed. Damn new codex forced meto buy more models to bring up to 1850 again.

All codexes got nerfed as well as boons. Same with eldar.

[chicop76]

Did someone say take Eldrad. Why on Earth would I do that. Last edition yes. This edition nooooooo. Let me put it this way Eldrad = 4 powers, 2 Farseers and a bit cheaper can cast 6 powers. I would say Eldrad and Avatar combo, but again for 1 less power I can use at more than half the cost I rather a Farseer.

If Eldrad can take gear and be put on a bike, which is expensive enough as is. The more I think about it no. Eldrad bad. He cost as much as a wraithknight and far more than the bloodletter without wings, oh I mean the Avatar a bloodletter have one more attack, wings, and gifts. Lol.

[Learn2Eel]

Thing is High Elves have been mid-low tier for sometime now because of this.

Strictly speaking this is untrue, 7th Edition High Elves were brutal in 7th but the changes in 8th to how ASF and charges functioned, as well as step up and steadfast, neutered what made them a great army - aside from their magic. Their newest book is designed for 8th and it works very well, it is closer to high tier than it is to low tier anyway.

Also, did I just seriously see someone say Tau have been nerfed?

[DarkLink]

Seriously?



Tau:
1. No team leader choice on suits anymore. Have to pay double for the upgrade character, although team lead wasn't a character which was awesome. For example if I take 3 groups of suits I am paying 15 points more for the upgrade character for those suits

The only reason to ever take the character was to get the extra suit systems, but now that you get multi-trackers and black sun filters for free, and now that your weapons don't have to be twin linked, and considering how many other buffs your wargear got, particularly the stuff the Commander can get, what are you complaining about again?

And if you were worried about leadership... bam, an Ethreal that's actually good.



2. No more hardwire systems. So no target lock on tau fire warriors any more or multi to fire both rifle and marker light.

You're complaining about markerlights on Fire Warriors? Seriously? Markerlights got massively buffed by the mere fact that you can spam so many of them so easily. Forest for the trees. Plus, Fire Warriors are much cheaper and you've got the Ethreal and coordinated fire to buff them.



3. Stealth suits can only take 2 drones and must by upgrade charcter to do, when in the past you could just buy 12 drones.

Yet Stealth Suits in general got significantly better, just like pretty much every other unit in the codex.



4. No strength 10 rail gun suits.

How many missile shots can a Broadside get, now? You still have Str 10 railguns elsewhere, and Fusion Blasters got a boosted range, so quite whining.



5. Bonding knife cost much more in points for troops to have, which ironically puts fir warriors back at their old cost.


But the rallying rules in general are much more forgiving, so it's not needed as much.



Not to mention that 6th in general favors shooting over assault more than ever, and that hull points means your stupid missile spam Tau lists can glance most any vehicles to death.

[chicop76]

Seriously?



The only reason to ever take the character was to get the extra suit systems, but now that you get multi-trackers and black sun filters for free, and now that your weapons don't have to be twin linked, and considering how many other buffs your wargear got, particularly the stuff the Commander can get, what are you complaining about again?

And if you were worried about leadership... bam, an Ethreal that's actually good.



You're complaining about markerlights on Fire Warriors? Seriously? Markerlights got massively buffed by the mere fact that you can spam so many of them so easily. Forest for the trees. Plus, Fire Warriors are much cheaper and you've got the Ethreal and coordinated fire to buff them.



Yet Stealth Suits in general got significantly better, just like pretty much every other unit in the codex.



How many missile shots can a Broadside get, now? You still have Str 10 railguns elsewhere, and Fusion Blasters got a boosted range, so quite whining.



But the rallying rules in general are much more forgiving, so it's not needed as much.



Not to mention that 6th in general favors shooting over assault more than ever, and that hull points means your stupid missile spam Tau lists can glance most any vehicles to death.

I can say seriously to the eldar nerfs.

Anyway for #1

Team Leader had acess to the gear options. No one payed extra for the Shas'vre since the Team Leader had the same options it saved you points across the board. Pay 5 points for a non character that does what a 10 point character does. Only matter it usuallly made was one attack, 5 more points for another attack.

2. Is a huge differance. It honesyly piss me off due to it limits your army. Pathfinders for example railrifles had target lock, not any more. Old Tau Shas'ui can fire separtely from the unit, fire both his rifle and marker light together. Now he has to fire with his squad with the marker light. Not saying the old upgrades wasn't expensine, but now what is the point dumping 34 points on a Ui to fire a marker light with the fire warriors. It's better to take pathfinders or marker drones. Talking about marker drones the fire warrior 'ui had a hard wire controller. This means if kept the same you would had two drones firing at the ui's bs. Since no hardwire controller no can do. Let's not even get into losing the abiltiy to take filters on firewarriors anyway.

With suits it's still a big deal. It didn't matter with the Ui's, but the Vre's it does matter. The hardwire allowed for shooting all weapons, split shooting, drone controller, etc. Yes now you get multi, but even though it's free you basically lost the ability to take extra options on your suits. Now you have 3 slots and told you got a buff and have a nice day. Typically 2 slots are weapons leaving one slot. The hard wire allowed you to defy the slot completely. In other words you really had like 8-10 slots in the old dex. Now you have 3 slots and told deal with it cause you got multi free. Not to mention losing bs 4 on suits and slow and purposeful on broadsides. I actually miss my old suits with A.S.S., multi, and split firing.( I took two suits and the 5 point upgrade to allow for hardwire and drones). Gosh let's not get into old shield drones with +2 armour. I"l pay 3 more points for that.

3. They got extra shot for less options on my Vre. I guess 28 shots compared to 30 shots when you take 6 suits with 12 drones is better and cheaper. I liked the extra wounds that kep my squad around longer. I was taking 3 man squad with 6 drones which worked out very well. Now I only can take 3 suits and 2 drones. Still a nerf.

4. 9 strength 10 railguns a turn reduced to 3 strength 10 railguns. I say that'sa nerf. However I just ran 7 since 9 was only done due to the nightbringer. Nightbringer didn't like 9 railguns and a bunch of seeker missiles up his butt. Monoliths either. Hated that triple monolith spam that deep strucked in my face. Found out 9 rail guns fix that.

Yes fusion is good, but how close you have to get again to be in melta range. I like my strength 10 thank you.

5. That's why I went O'Shova due to them being free. Unless I took drones in my suits and they numbered 4 or more it's no point. Tau still had a 5th edition codex in 6th for a few months. The only real unit I put them on is stealth suits. Other than that I do not see the point. Thinking about it O'Shova tricked you to taking Ui on your troops for bonding. In 3rdbonding was the way to go. Now that on some units it cost 12 points you can keep it. Out of a 12 man squad it's not need to prevt 2 fire warriors to stay on the board by not rolling snake eyes. Those 12 points = another firewarrior and extra cheese.

[Sainhann]

Anyway with eldar I don't see units the same.

1. Did the waveserpent can possibly fire 14 strength 6/7 shots at one go. Cannon up grade with scatter laser. Uh and all shots are twin linked by the way. I don't re call serpents doing that.

2. Wraithknights towing 2 strength 10 ap 1 shots that on a 6 can instant kill. What could do that last codex. Please tell me.

3. Waveserpent takes glancing hits on a 2+ really. That's much more durable than before.

4. Farseer with 3 powers. I thought a Faseer can only cast two last edition. Some powers are 2 charges, but you can make them 1 charge with gear.

5. Basic weapons have rending, up was in last codex.

We will start with the Wave Serpent 14 strength 6/7 shots with what weapon? Plus Twin Link only means that you get to reroll any misses. Twin Link Scatter Lasers are only 4 shots not 8, which is why I never Twin Link anything. I want all of my shots not just half of them.

Wraithknights yes it has two Str 10 AP1 weapons but the point cost for it means that it will not be used all that much. There are better and cheaper choices that would have even greater firepower. Choice two shots or 24 shots for less points that is the difference between a Wraithknight and a Squadron of War Walkers. Yes it might take awhile but players will learn that the Wraithknight is better used as a expensive paper weight.

Wave Serpent Shield turns pen's into glance on a 2+ make that save three times and you know what you will still have a destroyed Wave Serpent. Plus firing it off is a far better use of it.

Yes basic weapons have a mini rending, they still are only capable of shooting 12". Plus it does nothing for cover saves or invulnerable saves.

[DarkLink]

You sound like the Daemonhunter players who complained about losing WS5, 2A base, and Str6 when the new codex came out, completely ignoring the fact that GKs became cheaper, gained actual force weapons for everybody, str 5 storm bolter, psycannons that were actually useful, and a bunch of new toys. "Oh, but now I can't punch vehicles to death like I used to". Yeah, sure, but the codex is significantly more powerful when you look at the big picture.

[chicop76]

You sound like the Daemonhunter players who complained about losing WS5, 2A base, and Str6 when the new codex came out, completely ignoring the fact that GKs became cheaper, gained actual force weapons for everybody, str 5 storm bolter, psycannons that were actually useful, and a bunch of new toys. "Oh, but now I can't punch vehicles to death like I used to". Yeah, sure, but the codex is significantly more powerful when you look at the big picture.

Never said Tau is not better. Just saying it has several nerfs all over the place.

I actually was on of those Daemonhuter players. I complained my cannons and incinerators can't ignore invulnerable save. Hmmm let's talk about mystics. Playing against daemons was like playing duck hunt. I am playing Fateweaver I say ok. I am deep strikeing fateweaver. I say wait I have 2 mystics in my squad. Let me fire those psycannons. Wow 3 wounds you be dead. Daemon player says wait I have a +3 invulnerable save that re rolls. I show him ignore invulnerable saves and the rage quitting begins. Santuary was a riot too. I am shooting you. Nope can't do that, I am assaulting nope can't do that. Wait I am shooting the unit behind the santuary unit, nope can't do that. What can I do. I go sit there and get psycannoned and incinerated to death.

As a daemon player I was glad Grey Knights got nerfed. I went from draws and losses to wins and losses. If I went first it was a curb stomp. It was funny. I am playing grey knights which means auto win vs daemons I would laugh. They didn't think a +2 invulrable re rollabe save bloodthirster was funny in their face. Than daemons got pooffed. I been avoiding daemon vs greyknight games now. I don't think it 's as bad as 3rd, but I am reading dem reports.

I think the biggest greyknight nerf I hated was I would take 3 plasma guys and I would take two sages which would re roll ones and my guys had 4+ armour I took guard allies so they could borrow the cheaper chimera since the greyknight one was around 100 points. I really missed 5 inquisitors.

Overall instead on picking on seer councils and daemons they made greyknights capable of fighting everyone else which they heavly nerved the anti daemon part.

[chicop76]

We will start with the Wave Serpent 14 strength 6/7 shots with what weapon? Plus Twin Link only means that you get to reroll any misses. Twin Link Scatter Lasers are only 4 shots not 8, which is why I never Twin Link anything. I want all of my shots not just half of them.

Wraithknights yes it has two Str 10 AP1 weapons but the point cost for it means that it will not be used all that much. There are better and cheaper choices that would have even greater firepower. Choice two shots or 24 shots for less points that is the difference between a Wraithknight and a Squadron of War Walkers. Yes it might take awhile but players will learn that the Wraithknight is better used as a expensive paper weight.

Wave Serpent Shield turns pen's into glance on a 2+ make that save three times and you know what you will still have a destroyed Wave Serpent. Plus firing it off is a far better use of it.

Yes basic weapons have a mini rending, they still are only capable of shooting 12". Plus it does nothing for cover saves or invulnerable saves.

You can compare the strength 10 to srength 8 lance shots for starters. A war walker around 120 points can take two lance shots ( rough guess being lazy). Here is where the strength 10 comes in to play. Wraithknight on the other side, wraithlord, talos, pain engine, ku'gath, old unclean one, iron arm what ever. That strength 10 really help with toughness 7-9 stuff. Also against vehicles it's ap 1. Also you have to keep in mind he is more durable than a lot of other model at his point valuse. With a lot of wounds. Any upgrades make this guy hit close to or over 300 points. The 40 point upgrade is silly to take since you can tgake starcannons in stead. Heck that's 4 starcannon shots you could had somewhere else. In some cases it's 3-4 starcannons. Anyway nothing else in you army is that durable. If he's a fire magnent i't's a good thing. I would fear 2 strength 10 ap1 shots blowing up my tanks more than 3 shot anti infantry that is all over eldar. Fire Prisom is not hard to kil and excuse me where are your fire dragons, they gonna die. Wraithknight, gosh I have to fire a lot of stuff in to it to kill it. Thatg means I maynot take out the fire dragons and fire prisom like I wanted. Miss the +5 invulnerable place him in area terrain and he getsa +5 cover save problem solved.



How is the serpent getting 14 shots. Since you don't know I'll referance everything for you.

Pg. 97 this makes your serpent cost 130 points by the way.
Hmmm twin-linked scatter laser 36" heavy 4 strength 6 ap 6
Shuriken Cannon 24" assault 3 strength 6 ap 5
On the profile list on the back you can see the weapon profiles, so far that's 7 strength 6 shots right.

Pg. 62 Laser lock
Scatter laser has laser lock, with 4 twin linked shots not hard to pull off. If you hit with the scatterlaser all your weapons fired afterwards is now twin linked. Kinda silly if I have 7 strength 6 shots already twin linked right?

If I remember correctly a serpent have a Serpent Shiled. Turn to page 67.
Wait a weapon profile. Can turn off it's shield to shoot more. Get out of here with that.

60" range strength 7 ap - assault d6+1. What is 6+ 1 it's 7 right. On average you will be getting 4 shots, but 7 is maximum

Now let's add together 7 stength 6 shots + 7 strength 7 shots = 14 shots! That boys and Girls is how the serpent shoot 14 times between strength 6-7

I want to point out a serpent is a fast vehicle. So if you want to fire 14 times which is 3 differant weapons you have to move no more than 6". If it move over 6" through 12 that means the 3rd weapon will be fire as snap shots. Pg. 150 brb.

I did my quoting for the day, but you are welcome to pull out you book and read. I was even nice enough to give you page numbers atleast.

[chicop76]

Oh weapons that have bladestorm or mini rending

Scorpions claw str 4 12"
Shrieker Cannon str 6 24"
Shuriken cannon str 6 24"
Shuriken Pistol str 4 12"
Shuriken Catapult str 4 12"
Avenger Shuriken Cannon 18" str 4
Pages 63 and 65

I see 3 weapons that have ranged rending that is beyond 12" with two that fire at 24".

Bikes can take up to 3 cannons for 9 strength 6 24" rending or serpents can take 2 for 6 strength 6 rending that's twin linked.

My bad the second cannon is not twin linked. Forgot no scatter laser lol.

[eldargal]

Missed opportunities is one thing, but just bad design is another. Wraithknight weapons, both aircraft, poor melee units, Banshees, Exarch powers, the entirety of psykers. I would probably put this book worse than Chaos in terms of design, and even worse in terms of actual power.
Bollocks.

Eldar are a good 6th edition book in line with the rest, and if you seriously think it is a nerf compared to the 4th edition book then you are insane.

I'll talk about the game I played yesterday a bit later when I'm properly awake.

[daboarder]

Bollocks.

Eldar are a good 6th edition book in line with the rest, and if you seriously think it is a nerf compared to the 4th edition book then you are insane.

I'll talk about the game I played yesterday a bit later when I'm properly awake.

Dammit, I want to know now!

[eldargal]

I can't find my game notes or the Necron army list.:mad: This is the list I used:

Farseer with Singing Spear

10 Dire Avengers & Exarch with power weapon and shimmershield
Wave Serpent with TL starcannon

10 Dire Avengers & Exarch with power weapon and shimmershield
Wave Serpent with TL bright lance

Crimson Hunter Exarch

Fire Prism w Crystal Targetting Matrix

995pts.

What I remember of her list


Overlord with Orb thingy
5 Death marks
2 x 15 Warriors
Doomsday Ark
Ghost ark
Possibly something else I'm forgetting.
I don't remember what other wargear, but there was some.

Eldar are very mobile now, I think my friend underestimated that. She also didn't expect me to fit in a flyer at 1000pts so she didn't take one of her own. I think perhaps she also underestimated the damage a CH could do to her ground forces.

Highlights:
Fire Prism went Flat Out and scored a penetrating hit on the Doomsday Ark getting a weapon destroyed result on its main gun. The 4+ cover save protected it from incoming gauss fire nicely.
Wave Serpents really do giggle at incoming fire from the front, they weathered an awful lot and survived the game which is amazing.
Battle Focus is fantastic, I was able to fire with both DA squads and get them into 4+ cover after, protecting them from gauss nastiness
CH is just nasty against ground units. Vector Dancing 4 BS4 S8 AP2 shots into a unit messes it up, finished off the Death Marks before they could do too much damage when it entered from reserved and it fried the ghost ark in the next turn.
Wave Serpent weapons are useful now, thanks to being BS4 and cheap. This hadn't really sunk in 'til I actually used them. The starcannons on one killed a few warriors over the game and the bright lance on the other helped glance the crippled doomsday ark to death.

I messed up though, I charged the Dire Avengers into the Necron Overlord and his 6 remaining warriors with a Dire Avenger squad after dropping him to WS1 and 2W. I managed to pick off another wound in a challenge with the DA Exarch and kill another few warriors over the next two turns but they held and the combat lasted 'til the game ended, the Overlord survived and the DA couldn't seize their objective.

But I won with 4VP to 1 (One objective, First Blood to me, Linebreaker to her).

Any questions go ahead, might prompt things I've forgotten.

[cebalrai]

I can't find my game notes or the Necron army list.:mad: This is the list I used:


What I remember of her list


I don't remember what other wargear, but there was some.

Eldar are very mobile now, I think my friend underestimated that. She also didn't expect me to fit in a flyer at 1000pts so she didn't take one of her own. I think perhaps she also underestimated the damage a CH could do to her ground forces.

Highlights:
Fire Prism went Flat Out and scored a penetrating hit on the Doomsday Ark getting a weapon destroyed result on its main gun. The 4+ cover save protected it from incoming gauss fire nicely.
Wave Serpents really do giggle at incoming fire from the front, they weathered an awful lot and survived the game which is amazing.
Battle Focus is fantastic, I was able to fire with both DA squads and get them into 4+ cover after, protecting them from gauss nastiness
CH is just nasty against ground units. Vector Dancing 4 BS4 S8 AP2 shots into a unit messes it up, finished off the Death Marks before they could do too much damage when it entered from reserved and it fried the ghost ark in the next turn.
Wave Serpent weapons are useful now, thanks to being BS4 and cheap. This hadn't really sunk in 'til I actually used them. The starcannons on one killed a few warriors over the game and the bright lance on the other helped glance the crippled doomsday ark to death.

I messed up though, I charged the Dire Avengers into the Necron Overlord and his 6 remaining warriors with a Dire Avenger squad after dropping him to WS1 and 2W. I managed to pick off another wound in a challenge with the DA Exarch and kill another few warriors over the next two turns but they held and the combat lasted 'til the game ended, the Overlord survived and the DA couldn't seize their objective.

But I won with 4VP to 1 (One objective, First Blood to me, Linebreaker to her).

Any questions go ahead, might prompt things I've forgotten.



In each of my three games so far I've used a Wave Serpent rush into mass oncoming fire and lost none of them. It's been fun to watch my opponent's face as he mostly wastes a turn of shooting. Good fun.

I'm also loving how we can disembark and move so far away from the transport if need be. It really frees up my Serpents to move into a a better attack position rather than having to spend a turn moving then disembarking.

[chicop76]

Bullocks you can simply glance death waveserpents to death. Not like they have 12 amour and can have a +4 cover save.

[AlaitocJib]

I had read on another forum that the wraithblade attacks count as distortion...but cant find it in the dex'. Can anyone validate this or confirm it as false? Just curious, dont bash please... :(

[eldargal]

Bullocks you can simply glance death waveserpents to death. Not like they have 12 amour and can have a +4 cover save.
That's sarcasm right?

I had read on another forum that the wraithblade attacks count as distortion...but cant find it in the dex'. Can anyone validate this or confirm it as false? Just curious, dont bash please... :(
Ghostswords are S+1 AP3 no special rules as far as I can see.

[chicop76]

I had read on another forum that the wraithblade attacks count as distortion...but cant find it in the dex'. Can anyone validate this or confirm it as false? Just curious, dont bash please... :(

I said pg. 67 3 post ago answering this same question. If you at least read the page it would had answered your question. Yes it can shoot 14 times.

[chicop76]

That's sarcasm right?

Ghostswords are S+1 AP3 no special rules as far as I can see.
A lot of people make it out that it's easy to glance to death.

Let's see
1. 12 armour
2. +5 cover save if it moves, can have +4, but that can be used to buy another serpent
3. Twin scatter and cannon combo allows for twin shots plus the sheild up to 14 shots in the face.

For only 14 points. Compared to missile sides 8 twin strength 7 shots and 8 strength 5 shots at 16 shots. It shows how good that is. Also keep in mind the sepent is bs 4 to a bs 3 broadside. I think 9 is max both ways, but serpents don't take up slots. Meaning you can have prisoms or wraithknights as well.

[DrLove42]

2. +5 cover save if it moves, can have +4, but that can be used to buy another serpent


Yes because Holofields cost as much as a second vehicle....

[cebalrai]

A lot of people make it out that it's easy to glance to death.

Let's see
1. 12 armour
2. +5 cover save if it moves, can have +4, but that can be used to buy another serpent
3. Twin scatter and cannon combo allows for twin shots plus the sheild up to 14 shots in the face.

For only 14 points. Compared to missile sides 8 twin strength 7 shots and 8 strength 5 shots at 16 shots. It shows how good that is. Also keep in mind the sepent is bs 4 to a bs 3 broadside. I think 9 is max both ways, but serpents don't take up slots. Meaning you can have prisoms or wraithknights as well.


I'm going to take six Serpents into an 1850 tournament next weekend and not even bother to put anything in them. Maybe 6x10 Guardians hanging back with a variety of heavy weapons. Guide-Prescience Farseer in a fire base of Vaul's and War Walkers. That should be some absolutely fearsome firepower...

[Defenestratus]

I'm going to take six Serpents into an 1850 tournament next weekend and not even bother to put anything in them. Maybe 6x10 Guardians hanging back with a variety of heavy weapons. Guide-Prescience Farseer in a fire base of Vaul's and War Walkers. That should be some absolutely fearsome firepower...

I was thinking the same thing - however the cheapest way to do this is with 5 man DA squads I think.

[rle68]

I had to laugh a bit here; I'm sorry. Against me, at least, there is very little you can do to avoid my flamers whether they come from Helldrakes or Obliterators doing a Drop & Pop. For the record I think the Eldar did very well by their book. It is a decent book. I'm not keen on them breaking it into two books, but what can you do? I do think Guardians are subpar however, by no fault of their own, and the range issue is going to hamper them. Using them to camp objectives isn't that great either with the rise of so much cover ignoring offensive firepower.

you can laff if you want but if i know your bringing that if i let you have drop in access thats my bad and i dont let that happen.. and any good player sint going to give you free open area to land knowing thats coming. so laff away

[Caitsidhe]

you can laff if you want but if i know your bringing that if i let you have drop in access thats my bad and i dont let that happen.. and any good player sint going to give you free open area to land knowing thats coming. so laff away

Interesting. You are going to try and put enough bodies and vehicles out there to deny my Helldrake by denying me a place to land. You do realize how much real estate we are talking about here right?

[chicop76]

Yes because Holofields cost as much as a second vehicle....

9x 15= 135

Yup it's another serpent. For a basic no upgrade serpent at 15 points cheaper you get 10 ranges shots with only 3 twin linked shots. Honestly I rather 14 twin linked all shots. Also for 15 points more I am shooting 7 ranged twin linked strength 6 shots vs 3 strength 6 twin shots. Scatterlaser is actually good with the shield fire,I can see that, but for 5 points more might as well add 3 more shots.

The extra shots add up and is really more cost effective. 12 hits with 14 shots to 7 hits with 10 shots. For 15 points more you are almost doubling your hits

[Defenestratus]

9x 15= 135

Yup it's another serpent. For a basic no upgrade serpent at 15 points cheaper you get 10 ranges shots with only 3 twin linked shots. Honestly I rather 14 twin linked all shots. Also for 15 points more I am shooting 7 ranged twin linked strength 6 shots vs 3 strength 6 twin shots. Scatterlaser is actually good with the shield fire,I can see that, but for 5 points more might as well add 3 more shots.

The extra shots add up and is really more cost effective. 12 hits with 14 shots to 7 hits with 10 shots. For 15 points more you are almost doubling your hits

I'll remember your sage advice next time I field a non-apocalypse force where I field 9 Wave serpents.

:rolleyes:

[40kGamer]

I'll remember your sage advice next time I field a non-apocalypse force where I field 9 Wave serpents.

:rolleyes:

I fit 6 into a 2k list but 9 would be a stretch... :p

[cebalrai]

I was thinking the same thing - however the cheapest way to do this is with 5 man DA squads I think.


I know, but the extra bodies on the field that are putting out half a dozen heavy weapons could be worth it. And that's a lot of bodies to shoot through when they're going to ground...

Also my paint scheme is Ulthwe. :)

[chicop76]

I'll remember your sage advice next time I field a non-apocalypse force where I field 9 Wave serpents.

:rolleyes:

I can fit that in 1850. Well probably 8.

5 da and my 130 serpent is 195 and x 6 is

1170

Ideally I rather fire dragons, but since I am going for spam I insert howling banshee = 205 5 banshees and serpent

615 points

Total 1785

Spirtseer or autarch

1855. All I have to do is drop a cannon and that's 9 serpents in 1850. It's only 123 strength 6/7 twin linked shots not counting dire avengers or banshees. Yup I can fit 9 serpents just fine in a regular army.

I guess I can make a few of them lance for anti tank or just ram.

Wow. The waveserpent makes a great ram since it only take glancing hits.

[40kGamer]

I know, but the extra bodies on the field that are putting out half a dozen heavy weapons could be worth it. And that's a lot of bodies to shoot through when they're going to ground...

I prefer to pay the upcharge for guardians too, even used them a lot in the last edition... and they're way better now.

[chicop76]

I prefer to pay the upcharge for guardians too, even used them a lot in the last edition... and they're way better now.

I rather 9 serpents pewpewpewpew.

[40kGamer]

9 serpents would be crazy on the table but I can't give up my Nightwing Interceptors crutch! :D

[Lost Vyper]

About the codex in general:
It may not seem much on paper, but in fact it is so significant that you really have to treat the new codex as a brand new army, and learn using it anew.


This.

Played two games yesterday and lost 3-1 to CSM, but the game was tight. Second i had my a** handed to me by Necrons (i.hate.necrons.)

Positive :

- Beautiful codex (but the SE was a total rip-off)
- BS4! This is a HUGE boost, Jetbikes hit something!
- RendingLite
- War Walkers...my favourite unit in the last codex and still today. Laser Lock, BS4, Invl.save, Battle Focus, everything works! 2 x Scatter Lasers and Move-RUN-Shoot first weapon-Shoot second weapon Twin-Linked...killed a Daemon Lord with three of these bad boys...and held another in CC for two rounds
- Windriders or just Jetbikes, gotta get more of these...
- Illic
- NO Wraithsight

Negative

- Point costs all around, but especially Pathfinders 125p/5!!, plus Illic must be on board
- Powers (Death Mission is interesting, Eldrad almost killed himself by launching it), randomness
- No assault vehicle (this complaint is getting redundant, i know,but still)
- Fliers, c´mon...who´s gonna play either one of those? I have DE allies with Voidraven Bomber thank you...
- Can´t GW hire proof readers? Bikes run now :)?
- The ultimate FU to the Banshees, can´t Acrobatic be a skill to assault from the WS? There you go GW, you are welcome. +3 inches to run? Really?
- Didn´t really read the fluff, it seems to be the same text from the previous one with minor tweeking...

These are my thoughts after 2 games, 2 (Illic & Wraithknight) new models primed. My opinion is, that 60% of the book didn´t hit the mark and 40% is awesome.

Someone just hit reset and deleted my save games, so it´s round one everyone!

[Xenith]

- Powers (Death Mission is interesting, Eldrad almost killed himself by launching it), randomness


Eldrad should have killed himself. Deathmission states that you remove the model as a casualty at the end of the game.

[Defenestratus]

- Didn´t really read the fluff, it seems to be the same text from the previous one with minor tweeking...

To be fair, the events surrounding the fall were much more fleshed out. I had always wondered whether it was a "slow burn" or a "sudden explosion" and it seemed to be the former followed by the latter. I'm not sure if I had missed it in the past fluff but I appreciated the fall getting a bit more history behind it.

[cebalrai]

Eldrad should have killed himself. Deathmission states that you remove the model as a casualty at the end of the game.


Death Mission seems terribad. Am I missing something?

[AlaitocJib]

I said pg. 67 3 post ago answering this same question. If you at least read the page it would had answered your question. Yes it can shoot 14 times.

Wraithblades....shooting 14 times...what? And calm down. I didnt see you answered it two pages ago because I had not read...I dont know...the last 12 pages of the thread?

[Sainhann]

Bollocks.

Eldar are a good 6th edition book in line with the rest, and if you seriously think it is a nerf compared to the 4th edition book then you are insane.

I'll talk about the game I played yesterday a bit later when I'm properly awake.

I would not say that it worst than the 4th Edition piece of junk that we have had to deal with for the last 7 years.

But it could of been a tad better.

I would have preferred and 18" range for the Guardians S. Catapults (not the 24" that they had before but a huge improvement) and give the Dire Avengers a 24" range. I did not need the mini-rending but will take the increase in BS plus the addition 1 point in cost.

I would have preferred that they give a us an assault vehicle rather than the Wraithknight. GW would have found more buyers for this than that $125 model that will never find room in a 1850 point list.

Nerf'd nope GW did that to the Eldar 15 years ago.

[DarkLink]

Anyone who complains about not being able to fit a Wraithknight into an 1850 list needs to try playing Grey Knights some time. 240pts for a unit is cheap, you babies.


Death Mission seems terribad. Am I missing something?

Not only that, but since it's only available on Farseers, who have very limited access to CC wargear, you're not even going to be good in combat. Who cares if you're WS10 I10 if you're still like Str 3 Ap -?

[chicop76]

Try playing Daemons your bloodthirster and Fateweaver is easily 300 points. A master 3 winged price can easily be 350 points. Heck if I can fit 5 flying monsters at 300 a pop, 30 daemonettes, 20 hounds, and two skull cannons in 1850 I think you can fit a wraithknight in rater easily.

[chicop76]

Minus the two cannons lol.

[Sainhann]

I fit 6 into a 2k list but 9 would be a stretch... :p

Yes it would be since that would be over 1200 points or around 61% of 2000 for just 9 models really doesn't need much left over for other things.

Even 6 is a lot of points as well.

Enjoy this time because your opponents will learn very quickly that the way to destroy them will be not by shooting but Close Combat. The Shield does nothing against Close Combat attacks only the speed that you were going.

Which will be around 6" after the first turn if you want to take advantage of the Firepower that it can bring.

[40kGamer]

Death Mission seems terribad. Am I missing something?

Seems horrible to me. Not a power I ever hope to roll up unless it's a beer and pretzels kind of night. :)

[chicop76]

Seems horrible to me. Not a power I ever hope to roll up unless it's a beer and pretzels kind of night. :)

My bloodthirster laughs and backhands him.

[Eldar_Atog]

Seems horrible to me. Not a power I ever hope to roll up unless it's a beer and pretzels kind of night. :)

Perhaps if you had one of the Remnants of Glory close combat weapons equipped, it'd be cool. But the only time I can see having a Farseer tricked out for close combat is in a seer council. I prefer my farseer to serve as a support role, truthfully.

[40kGamer]

Perhaps if you had one of the Remnants of Glory close combat weapons equipped, it'd be cool. But the only time I can see having a Farseer tricked out for close combat is in a seer council. I prefer my farseer to serve as a support role, truthfully.

That could definitely help. I prefer the support roll too... and heaven forbid he's your warlord! :rolleyes:

[Defenestratus]

Not only that, but since it's only available on Farseers, who have very limited access to CC wargear, you're not even going to be good in combat. Who cares if you're WS10 I10 if you're still like Str 3 Ap -?

Well they have either witchblades or singing spears.

Fleshbane/armorbane weapon ain't exactly crappy really. Can also give them either the firesabre or the shard of anaris which would be quite nice.

[Shas'O Alohcry]

Y


- War Walkers...my favourite unit in the last codex and still today. Laser Lock, BS4, Invl.save, Battle Focus, everything works! 2 x Scatter Lasers and Move-RUN-Shoot first weapon-Shoot second weapon Twin-Linked...killed a Daemon Lord with three of these bad boys...and held another in CC for two rounds

Negative

- Point costs all around, but especially Pathfinders 125p/5!!, plus Illic must be on board
- Fliers, c´mon...who´s gonna play either one of those? I have DE allies with Voidraven Bomber thank you...
- Can´t GW hire proof readers? Bikes run now :)?


Can the Warwalkers twin link the second scatter laser? I read it as ALL laser lock weapons have to be fired first, then whatever isn't laser lock gets twin linked, I may have miss read it though.

If you think 5pts for a unit of 5 Pathfinders is expensive when they gained +1 BS and precision shots on any roll that hits, I think that's a bargain (except for having to pay for Illic aswell) try the wraithlord going up 30pts for +1 A and -2 Str. That's not a good increase...

I plan to run a Crimson hunter with an Autarch so it should come on after most fliers, and with 4 Str 8 shots hitting on 2's it should scrap most fliers easy.

As for the proof reading, they added a little sentence saying "if the unit cannot run it gains no benifit from Battle Focus" they knew they had put it on the Bikes because they are Guardians with a Jetbike wargear. They were just being weird and making sure that all Guardians and aspects got Battle Focus, even if they can't use it.

[chicop76]

Well they have either witchblades or singing spears.

Fleshbane/armorbane weapon ain't exactly crappy really. Can also give them either the firesabre or the shard of anaris which would be quite nice.

Bloodthirster says ouch and slaps him silly 3 times speaking like the count from seseme street.

[DarkLink]

Perhaps if you had one of the Remnants of Glory close combat weapons equipped, it'd be cool. But the only time I can see having a Farseer tricked out for close combat is in a seer council. I prefer my farseer to serve as a support role, truthfully.


Well they have either witchblades or singing spears.

Fleshbane/armorbane weapon ain't exactly crappy really. Can also give them either the firesabre or the shard of anaris which would be quite nice.

If you're not AP3 or better, then you're not a real threat in assault, at least not if you're a single model, which leaves you with the Str 4 Firebrand, and it's not worth taking it with the random chance of rolling up the right power. At best you're decent in assault, and having to roll for psychic tests and such to be decent then you're not really decent. If you could guarentee it, it would be pretty funny to run with the Mantle and stuff.

[bfmusashi]

I forgot, we can't be excited about things that aren't super powerful. Can't be happy the rune of morphin' time came back.

[40kGamer]

Y

Can the Warwalkers twin link the second scatter laser? I read it as ALL laser lock weapons have to be fired first, then whatever isn't laser lock gets twin linked, I may have miss read it though.

That's how I read it. Scatter Lasers are all fired together and only twin link other (non-SL) weapons on the model.

[DarkLink]

I forgot, we can't be excited about things that aren't super powerful. Can't be happy the rune of morphin' time came back.

Well, they asked if it was good or not. Didn't say it couldn't be fun.

[40kGamer]

Well, they asked if it was good or not. Didn't say it couldn't be fun.

More fun than a Pyrovore. :p Probably not what you want to roll up at a competitive event though.

[chicop76]

How about this. I wouldn't take 3 vypers as a squad, but pointing out the fire power of 3 vypers

For 210 points you can take 3 scatter lasers and 3 cannons. That's 21 strength 6 shots. The cannons can re roll due to the scatter lasers

While war walkers can take a scatter and a cannon as well. This will hit you for 195 points.

The major differance is vypers are 15 points more and have a +5 cover save vs a +5 invulnerable save. Also the vypers being a fast vehicle can move 12" and fire. Not to mention it can cover more ground if it needed too.

Taking 3 of both would put out 42 strength 6 shots at around 400 points. So basically 10 pts per strength 6 shot.

Althought the serpent can dish out 14 shots at 130 points the other two units put out slightly less, but you will be getting the same shot volume.

For around 800 points you can field roughly 6 vypers and 6 war walkers dishing out 80 strength 6 shots, can't complain about that. It easily covers anti ground and light tank. Putting a full 1200 points for 9 vypers and 9 walkers will give you 120 strength 6 shots, not too shabby.

[Eldar_Atog]

I forgot, we can't be excited about things that aren't super powerful. Can't be happy the rune of morphin' time came back.

I'm pretty excited about the new book. I'm trying to figure out the best way to build my Solitaire led Harlie force.

I'm just not going to be super excited about turning my farseer into a close combat monster. I want her to be providing synergy to my army and disrupting my opponent's synergy with the Telepathy school. The Autarch, Phoenix Lords, and Avatar are better equipped for close combat... so I will use them for close combat.

The right tool for the right job :)

[chicop76]

So I can take 3 serpents with da, 9 vypers, 9 walkers, and a spirt seer and dish out roughly 160 strength 6 shots. That's allot of saves with a 1/3 of that is rending.

[40kGamer]

I'm pretty excited about the new book. I'm trying to figure out the best way to build my Solitaire led Harlie force.

I'm just not going to be super excited about turning my farseer into a close combat monster. I want her to be providing synergy to my army and disrupting my opponent's synergy with the Telepathy school. The Autarch, Phoenix Lords, and Avatar are better equipped for close combat... so I will use them for close combat.

The right tool for the right job :)

I love Harlequins! For the solitare I'm thinking autarch on jetbike with mantle and lots of CC goodies. Farseer can represent a high warlock for the troupe. You tooled yours up on paper yet? :)

[deinol]

Interesting math:

Vs T4 Sv 3+
2 Shuriken Cannons should do 1.5 unsaved wounds.
2 Scatterlasers should do 1.728 unsaved wounds
1 Scatterlaser + 1 S Cannon should do 1.777 unsaved wounds.

Vs T4 Sv 2+
2 S Cannons do 1.11 unsaved wounds
2 Scatter lasers do 0.864 unsaved wounds
1 each do 1.11 unsaved wounds.

Of course, cover and invulns will play with the math. But using a scatter laser to twin link a cannon seems better than either alone.

[DarkLink]

That's why I like Serpents. Between the Scatter Laser, Shield, and Cannon, you get more firepower, all TL most of the time without the need for psychic support, on a fast, durable platform. I don't see the need for Scatter Laser War Walkers, really. A pair of Serpents costs about the same, has about the same firepower, and the same number of hull points, but the Serpent is faster, AV12, can carry units, and doesn't need a Farseer for reroll to hit.

[Sainhann]

Interesting math:

Vs T4 Sv 3+
2 Shuriken Cannons should do 1.5 unsaved wounds.
2 Scatterlasers should do 1.728 unsaved wounds
1 Scatterlaser + 1 S Cannon should do 1.777 unsaved wounds.

Vs T4 Sv 2+
2 S Cannons do 1.11 unsaved wounds
2 Scatter lasers do 0.864 unsaved wounds
1 each do 1.11 unsaved wounds.

Of course, cover and invulns will play with the math. But using a scatter laser to twin link a cannon seems better than either alone.

Now times them by three since that is what you can get with a Squadron of Vypers or War Walkers.

For the first you are looking at around 5.33 (1.777*3) unsaved wounds.

For the second you are looking at around 3.33 (1.11*3) unsaved wounds.

[Sainhann]

How about this. I wouldn't take 3 vypers as a squad, but pointing out the fire power of 3 vypers

For 210 points you can take 3 scatter lasers and 3 cannons. That's 21 strength 6 shots. The cannons can re roll due to the scatter lasers

While war walkers can take a scatter and a cannon as well. This will hit you for 195 points.

The major differance is vypers are 15 points more and have a +5 cover save vs a +5 invulnerable save. Also the vypers being a fast vehicle can move 12" and fire. Not to mention it can cover more ground if it needed too.

Taking 3 of both would put out 42 strength 6 shots at around 400 points. So basically 10 pts per strength 6 shot.

Althought the serpent can dish out 14 shots at 130 points the other two units put out slightly less, but you will be getting the same shot volume.

For around 800 points you can field roughly 6 vypers and 6 war walkers dishing out 80 strength 6 shots, can't complain about that. It easily covers anti ground and light tank. Putting a full 1200 points for 9 vypers and 9 walkers will give you 120 strength 6 shots, not too shabby.

Yup, a ton of firepower in either unit. Both do have their weakness which is their armor since both are at AV 10 but with the new glance rules both units have 6 wounds and they both do have their saves.

Each provide a different capability: Vypers are fast and will make flank attackers while the War Walkers are a point defense unit. Put them behind or near your Guardians and provide them with additional long range fire power.

Now both are even more deadly if you put a Farseer near them with Guide: for the Vypers put him on a Jet Bike so that he can travel with them so you should be getting 17-19 hits normally which should be around 14-16 wounds just from the unit of Vypers.

For the War Walkers have him on foot and support the War Walkers and if you are close to your Guardians and an enemy unit is within range put the guide on to them.

[HERO]

I just caught back up in this thread. One person is saying Tau got worse (which I find to be an utterly ridiculous statement), and then another with someone that said Eldar got better while playing 1K with two questionable lists.

Have fun with the book by all means. It's not terrible, but there's tons of design inconsistencies, straight up bad design, and thus are low on the power side because of these. I am a Eldar player, yes, but I'm also completely unbiased: I call it like it is, you will see that in a couple of months ;)

[daboarder]

I just caught back up in this thread. One person is saying Tau got worse (which I find to be an utterly ridiculous statement), and then another with someone that said Eldar got better while playing 1K with two questionable lists.

Have fun with the book by all means. It's not terrible, but there's tons of design inconsistencies, straight up bad design, and thus are low on the power side because of these. I am a Eldar player, yes, but I'm also completely unbiased: I call it like it is, you will see that in a couple of months ;)

Well I was watching eldar last night and...call me impressed, the worst thing in this codex appears to be banshee's and realistically at worst they are merely unchanged.

I particularly like the runes of battle, insanely good at what they provide, Eldar really let you throw off the enemy game plans with those things and I think they will regain their reptuation as one of the most frustrating forces to play against.

[calamitycal]

I just caught back up in this thread. One person is saying Tau got worse (which I find to be an utterly ridiculous statement), and then another with someone that said Eldar got better while playing 1K with two questionable lists.

Have fun with the book by all means. It's not terrible, but there's tons of design inconsistencies, straight up bad design, and thus are low on the power side because of these. I am a Eldar player, yes, but I'm also completely unbiased: I call it like it is, you will see that in a couple of months ;)

I think when the dust clears we'll see this Codex somewhere in the middle, maybe slightly on the lower side of middle. It's not Grey Knights or Necron certainly. And they didn't get the 6E buff that Tau got. But it's not Sisters of Battle either.

But until we all play with it and against it, nobody can make any conclusions. So yea, I don't think Eldargal was making a conclusion based on her one battle, especially one where her opponent had no anti-air and had no experience against the new stuff, but a win is a win. I've read reports of the new Eldar getting tabled by turn 3 and I've read some of them doing the same to their opponent. Seems like a wash so far.

I haven't had a chance to play a battle with them yet, but my impression is I'll likely won't using the Wraithknight or the Wraithfighter often, which is a shame. Seeing it in person, I still think the Wraithknight is "off" looking, but i LOVE the flier.

Still, I'll give them a chance though!

[chicop76]

I just caught back up in this thread. One person is saying Tau got worse (which I find to be an utterly ridiculous statement), and then another with someone that said Eldar got better while playing 1K with two questionable lists.

Have fun with the book by all means. It's not terrible, but there's tons of design inconsistencies, straight up bad design, and thus are low on the power side because of these. I am a Eldar player, yes, but I'm also completely unbiased: I call it like it is, you will see that in a couple of months ;)

Ummm. Never said Tau got worst. I said they received a lot of nerfs. Like link said it's like grey knights and nids. The buffs strimlined them and made them able to dish out more. Never said the codex got worst.

I remember someone said Eldar got nerved and I pointed out all 6th edition books got nerved in some way. No runes of warding cry more. Grey knight weapons can't ignor invulnerable saves booo hoooo. Cryyyyyyyyy argghhghhgh.

Than I ponted out the 14 shot wave serpent which you didn't had before plus other goodies.

Honestly I am liking the banshees. I noticed they are the ceapest out of elite units and perfect for more wave serpent spam, so if you go waveserpent spam than the banshees are perfect.

[DarkLink]

I just caught back up in this thread. One person is saying Tau got worse (which I find to be an utterly ridiculous statement)

I know, right?



Have fun with the book by all means. It's not terrible, but there's tons of design inconsistencies, straight up bad design, and thus are low on the power side because of these. I am a Eldar player, yes, but I'm also completely unbiased: I call it like it is, you will see that in a couple of months ;)

I laugh every time I hear someone say "Banshees are good, they're just a counter assault unit now".

[chicop76]

I know, right?



I laugh every time I hear someone say "Banshees are good, they're just a counter assault unit now".


Banshees als allow you to take wave serpents as cheap elite option for it. In other words it's the cheapest Elite unit which allows you to take wave serpents as elites.

[HERO]

You don't need to all play it and against it to see shoddy design. But this is something that I don't expect many people to understand first hand, and that's fine.

Eldar will be very much in the middle of the line of 6th Ed. books power wise (and only 6th Ed. books and not including 5th), but weaker in terms of overall design mechanics. There's just too many inexcusable misses which seriously weakens the book. Fortunately, there's enough units in the Eldar war arsenal that doesn't throw off internal balance too badly.

I just need you guys to understand one thing:
Eldar is a hard army to design, so I can't rag on Kelly too much. The reason for this is because you're trying to design a high-priced, elite army with specialist roles, all at the same knowing that it's army-wide T3 in a very lethal environment. In order for this to this design to succeed for such a specialist army, every role must be clearly defined in design, function, and balanced through points. A specialist unit that's not good in its role is simply, trash and not worth taking.

For example, and let me just throw out some design ideas here so you can get a better picture:

What if Banshee Masks also counted as having assault grenades?
...Runes of Warding forced enemy psykers within 24" to re-roll their successful psychic tests.
...Runes of Witnessing allowed you to re-roll your failed ones.
...Crimson Hunters came with Holofields and Exarch upgrade allowed him to ignore the Snap Shot rule.
...Hemlocks were torrent/template weapons.
...Wave Serpents gained assault ramps.
...Autarch could take Exarch weapons and powers.
...Dire Avenger's Exarch kept his Bladestorm but it was renamed.
...Wraithtknight's Heavy Wraithcannons are S10 AP2 Blast.

This is an example of what I call design inconsistency AND incorrect fluff to table-top translation:
Heavy D-Sycthe loses template, gains Blast, when the fluff and description of the weapon says it ignores cover and is NOT a blast. The D-Sycthe itself is a template weapon, ignores cover.

This is an example of poor design:
Wraithknight's Heavy Wraithcannon only adds +24" on the weapon's range and nothing else.

This is an example of poor design AND incorrect fluff to table-top translation:
Banshees without grenades, and masks didn't make up for it.

This is an example of poor design AND incorrect fluff to table-top translation:
Crimson Hunters are an Eldar Ace aspect, the best pilots in the galaxy, has the same defensive ability as an Ork pilot, and doesn't come with the most basic of all Eldar vehicle countermeasures; Holofields.

Eldar psykers are the most gifted and powerful in the galaxy:
Random spell generation, Ld. 8/9/10 Warlocks/SS/Farseer, one-use crappy psychic items.

Poor design, inconsistency, and poor table-top translation are all over this book. Much more than last book, much much more.

[HERO]

Ummm. Never said Tau got worst. I said they received a lot of nerfs. Like link said it's like grey knights and nids. The buffs strimlined them and made them able to dish out more. Never said the codex got worst.

I remember someone said Eldar got nerved and I pointed out all 6th edition books got nerved in some way. No runes of warding cry more. Grey knight weapons can't ignor invulnerable saves booo hoooo. Cryyyyyyyyy argghhghhgh.

Than I ponted out the 14 shot wave serpent which you didn't had before plus other goodies.

Honestly I am liking the banshees. I noticed they are the ceapest out of elite units and perfect for more wave serpent spam, so if you go waveserpent spam than the banshees are perfect.

Don't even try to dig yourself out of that one man.

The fact you mentioned Tau and nerfed in the same sentence is just outrageous. They're one of the best armies right now, for a 6th Ed. book to ascend to GK and Necron levels is pretty bad for the game.

In which ways did they receive nerfs that weren't made up or completely overshadowed by the buffs they received? Just pretend you didn't say anything and move on.

[Mkvenner]

You don't need to all play it and against it to see shoddy design. But this is something that I don't expect many people to understand first hand, and that's fine.

Eldar will be very much in the middle of the line of 6th Ed. books power wise (and only 6th Ed. books and not including 5th), but weaker in terms of overall design mechanics. There's just too many inexcusable misses which seriously weakens the book. Fortunately, there's enough units in the Eldar war arsenal that doesn't throw off internal balance too badly.

I just need you guys to understand one thing:
Eldar is a hard army to design, so I can't rag on Kelly too much. The reason for this is because you're trying to design a high-priced, elite army with specialist roles, all at the same knowing that it's army-wide T3 in a very lethal environment. In order for this to this design to succeed for such a specialist army, every role must be clearly defined in design, function, and balanced through points. A specialist unit that's not good in its role is simply, trash and not worth taking.

(Extra stuff)

This is an example of what I call design inconsistency AND incorrect fluff to table-top translation:
Heavy D-Sycthe loses template, gains Blast, when the fluff and description of the weapon says it ignores cover and is NOT a blast. The D-Sycthe itself is a template weapon, ignores cover.

This is an example of poor design:
Wraithknight's Heavy Wraithcannon only adds +24" on the weapon's range and nothing else.

This is an example of poor design AND incorrect fluff to table-top translation:
Banshees without grenades, and masks didn't make up for it.

This is an example of incorrect fluff to table-top translation:
Crimson Hunters has an Eldar Ace, the best pilots in the galaxy, has the same defensive ability as an Ork pilot.

Eldar psykers are the most gifted and powerful in the galaxy:
Random spell generation, Ld. 8/9/10 Warlocks/SS/Farseer, one-use crappy psychic items.

Poor design, inconsistency, and poor table-top translation are all over this book. Much more than last book, much much more.

Which has nothing to do with that fact that he's been on a team or personally had to write three out of the five 6th Edition codices thus far. No that couldn't get in the way. The fact that they have managed to get this many books out that are balanced and fun to play is astounding. I am actually astounded they have managed to keep it this decent. This hyper release schedule is going to have its speed bumps. Your changes would make this book from 6th edition balanced to OTT easy. There would be no brainer choices and it would break the mold.

In fact, what you are suggesting is bad design. Attempting to overpower a this codex to put it above the others is wrong. They all match up to each other rather well. Most of the 5th edition books are still OP due not being N*Sync (Oh I went there) with 6th edition. If anything, they will be upper middle tier as of now due to how powerful GK and Necrons are. Give these guys a month and you will see some broken Tau/Eldar combos.

That's not to say the Eldar book doesn't have its WTF moments. Chaos had that too with Mutilators, (CC Oblits, their name is lost on me) Heldrake, and the Warp Talons. DA has the Land Speeder Portable DJ and some other weak ends. It's inherent in the system. There will always be these tiny little hiccups. It's up to the early adopters of the 6th edition codices to pick up their trousers and make the best of what they have until the 'Top Dogs' are back to being puppies.

[HERO]

Which has nothing to do with that fact that he's been on a team or personally had to write three out of the five 6th Edition codices thus far. No that couldn't get in the way. The fact that they have managed to get this many books out that are balanced and fun to play is astounding. I am actually astounded they have managed to keep it this decent. This hyper release schedule is going to have its speed bumps. Your changes would make this book from 6th edition balanced to OTT easy. There would be no brainer choices and it would break the mold.

In fact, what you are suggesting is bad design. Attempting to overpower a this codex to put it above the others is wrong. They all match up to each other rather well. Most of the 5th edition books are still OP due not being N*Sync (Oh I went there) with 6th edition. If anything, they will be upper middle tier as of now due to how powerful GK and Necrons are. Give these guys a month and you will see some broken Tau/Eldar combos.

That's not to say the Eldar book doesn't have its WTF moments. Chaos had that too with Mutilators, (CC Oblits, their name is lost on me) Heldrake, and the Warp Talons. DA has the Land Speeder Portable DJ and some other weak ends. It's inherent in the system. There will always be these tiny little hiccups. It's up to the early adopters of the 6th edition codices to pick up their trousers and make the best of what they have until the 'Top Dogs' are back to being puppies.

Did I ever say in my posts that all these changes need to go in? Overpower a codex? Have you a shred of common sense to realize that:
1. I am just giving examples of design inconsistencies.
2. I'm giving you hypothetical scenarios that could of saved some of these questionable design choices.
3. Go through ANY of my suggestions and point out how it could be overpowered.
4. Notice I did not give ANY points changes? Did you? Because depending on how many of these ideas go in, points and balance changes entirely.

@It's inherent in the system.

But it's MORE so in this book than the other ones I've read, compared, evaluated and wrote reviews for. Which is my ENTIRE point.

When all of these points hit home, try again with another more intelligent post.

[Mkvenner]

Did I ever say in my posts that these are all the changes that need to go in? Overpower a codex? Have you a shred of common sense to realize that:
1. I am just giving examples of design inconsistencies.
2. I'm giving you hypothetical scenarios that could of saved some of these questionable design choices.
3. Go through ANY of my suggestions and point out how it could be overpowered.
4. Notice I did not give ANY points changes? Did you? Because depending on how many of these ideas go in, points and balance changes entirely.

@It's inherent in the system.

But it's MORE so in this book than the other ones I've read, compared, evaluated and wrote reviews for. Which is my ENTIRE point.

When all of these points hit home, try again with another more intelligent post.

You fully intended those examples as logical applications. Don't even try and dissuade that. If there was a meeting where designers were pitching rules and such you would have easily used those. So before you start throwing them as fodder and ducking behind it as a "hypothetical" situation, why don't you simmer down a bit.

If you were to do more than 3 of your suggestions it could easily send this book up. One of those is not going to break the game.

While they may be "design inconsistencies". These are fairly common occurrences throughout 6th edition. That is why I said it is inherent to the system. There are plenty of units like this throughout all of the codices. Not to mention that Codex Eldar happens to have a lot of units that are competing for specialized roles.

Wave Serpents are very powerful. Almost too good if it was not for their points cost keeping them grounded. Compared to other units a 155pt Wave Serpent puts out so much firepower on a solid platform. I could name more if needed.

I feel like you are focusing on the bad elements and putting them down rather harshly.

I can't believe you can write competent articles with how easy you are to incite. We are simply debating on how good a book matches up to others. At what point did you need to question my intelligence or common sense (of which I apparently lack).

My point being I think you are underrating this codex. Your changes, as hypothetical as they may be, can push this book over. Comparing a book that got a huge boost from 6th edition and a book that was pretty powerful already, to a new 6th edition codex that has not been out for more than a week... and we are supposed to believe your analysis dictates how great they are going to be... right.

[HERO]

You fully intended those examples as logical applications. Don't even try and dissuade that. If there was a meeting where designers were pitching rules and such you would have easily used those. So before you start throwing them as fodder and ducking behind it as a "hypothetical" situation, why don't you simmer down a bit.

If you were to do more than 3 of your suggestions it could easily send this book up. One of those is not going to break the game.

While they may be "design inconsistencies". These are fairly common occurrences throughout 6th edition. That is why I said it is inherent to the system. There are plenty of units like this throughout all of the codices. Not to mention that Codex Eldar happens to have a lot of units that are competing for specialized roles.

Wave Serpents are very powerful. Almost too good if it was not for their points cost keeping them grounded. Compared to other units a 155pt Wave Serpent puts out so much firepower on a solid platform. I could name more if needed.

I feel like you are focusing on the bad elements and putting them down rather harshly.

I can't believe you can write competent articles with how easy you are to incite. We are simply debating on how good a book matches up to others. At what point did you need to question my intelligence or common sense (of which I apparently lack).

My point being I think you are underrating this codex. Your changes, as hypothetical as they may be, can push this book over. Comparing a book that got a huge boost from 6th edition and a book that was pretty powerful already, to a new 6th edition codex that has not been out for more than a week... and we are supposed to believe your analysis is the dictates how great they are going to be... right.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?32923-Eldar-Codex-So-What-Do-You-Think-Of-It&p=315389&viewfull=1#post315389

Read the last line of this post. I'll see you in a couple of months for that apology.

I'm quick to incite when I think people are outright delusional to what they think this book is and outright ignoring logic. It's not a great book; it's very mediocre and filled with loop holes and questionable design issues. I've outlined them, you can pretend to ignore them but they're there. There's several more examples of them that I can't be assed to lay it out exactly; especially from what I've seen from certain people and their inability to connect the dots. I've given some ideas on how to fix these issues, and if you think these are overpowered then you gotta be kidding me. From your tone and approach, I don't think you're kidding, which kinda worries me further.

Of course the fixes I sent out are logical responses to the problem at hand. I wouldn't propose anything that I wouldn't do myself as a designer. I would go further and explain the fantasy and logic of each proposal I listed above (and those are only some), but at this point I see no point continuing this discussion.

[Defenestratus]

Just played my first game with the new book. It was a itty bitty tiny game - only 1500 points but I managed to table my ultramarine opponent in 5 turns. I had amazing luck though first roll of the game and that pretty much sealed the game's fate.

My list was thrown together out of whatever was in the back of my car.

Asurmen, Farseer with fancy jewelry stone. Asurmen got the warlord version of doom, stealth and no scatter within 6" warlord powers. Farseer got Doom, Mind War and that divination power that lets you fire on full overwatch.

Two full squads of DA's. One squad with a worthless twl avenger cat exarch (totally dumb fyi) and one pumped up exarch with PW/SS, disarm and something else that didn't make a difference.
Both squads in Wave Serpents with cannon upgrades and HF's. One with Bright lance, one with scatter laser

Squad of 4 spiders + exarch with spinnerette rifle, fast shot and power blades

Squad of 2 war walkers with all scatter lasers
Squad of 2 war walkers with starcannons

His list was a Libby in TDA with a party of 5 assault terminators. Three hammers/shields, two claws in a godhammer pattern LR. Two squads of marines with flamer and plasma cannon combat squadded with heavy bolter razorbacks. Two Dakka Predators. Two HF/MM dreads in drop pods.

I went first and turn one I got my bright lance serpent a clear shot at the front of the land raider and made it explode first shot of the game. Pure luck. The rest of the game was basic clean up duty at that point.

Things that I noticed:

Rangers were almost complete crap. Couldn't even pick out the plasma cannons before they died. Only reason I say "almost" is because they did suck up a lot of shooting with their stealth.

Doom that works on vehicles is awesome. Its the only power I actually casted.

Wave serpents ftw. There's no arguing about that.

Warp spiders that didn't scatter thanks to Asurmen completely wiped out the terminator squad hoofing it across the board. Evil nasty little arachnids!

Avengers don't do nearly enough damage - the lost of old bladestorm is really crappy. I BARELY killed 4 marines in cover with a full squad - only rended 2 times and that brings me to the next point..

I got really lucky. I don't think I would have won otherwise. I don't like having to rely on luck honestly.

[Mkvenner]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?32923-Eldar-Codex-So-What-Do-You-Think-Of-It&p=315389&viewfull=1#post315389

Read the last line of this post. I'll see you in a couple of months for that apology.

I'm quick to incite when I think people are outright delusional to what they think this book is and outright ignoring logic. It's not a great book; it's very mediocre and filled with loop holes and questionable design issues. I've outlined them, you can pretend to ignore them but they're there. There's several more examples of them that I can't be assed to lay it out exactly; especially from what I've seen from certain people and their inability to connect the dots. I've given some ideas on how to fix these issues, and if you think these are overpowered then you gotta be kidding me. From your tone and approach, I don't think you're kidding, which kinda worries me further.

Of course the fixes I sent out are logical responses to the problem at hand. I wouldn't propose anything that I wouldn't do myself as a designer. I would go further and explain the fantasy and logic of each proposal I listed above (and those are only some), but at this point I see no point continuing this discussion.

Fine by me. However, an apology will not be necessary.

[HERO]

I went first and turn one I got my bright lance serpent a clear shot at the front of the land raider and made it explode first shot of the game. Pure luck. The rest of the game was basic clean up duty at that point.

Did he know what Lance did or know what cover is?


Fine by me. However, an apology will not be necessary.

I don't expect one :D

[chicop76]

Don't even try to dig yourself out of that one man.

The fact you mentioned Tau and nerfed in the same sentence is just outrageous. They're one of the best armies right now, for a 6th Ed. book to ascend to GK and Necron levels is pretty bad for the game.

In which ways did they receive nerfs that weren't made up or completely overshadowed by the buffs they received? Just pretend you didn't say anything and move on.

Dig myself out of what how I say they suck and than rate them the highest out of all the 6th edition codexes. I notice people like to leave out some parts and focus on what you want to pick one. Did Tau receive nerfs on several matters yes. Did they receive buffs yes. I can pick out like 20 nerfs at lest with greyknights. What's funny they got more nerfs than buffs, but the buffs was so crazy 1 buff overidden like 5 nerfs. Psycannons is worst against daemons, but awesome against everyone else. Heavon forbid I point out negatives with positives.

I can say you say the Eldar sucks and can't win games. Don't dig your way out of that. You completely ignore any buffs the army has received and go strait to the negatives.

Runes of Warding was a nerf you can see a mile a way. Look at psychic hood. Why keep something in the game that stops people from playing psykers when they are trying to promote it. When wolves and nids come around expect their anti psychic defense to be nerfed.

Fortune had to be nerfed as well. Look at Fateweaver they completly took it away from him. What do you expect. Be happy it's a random power than no power at all.

Your problem you are comparing a 6th edition codex to all codexes. You can't do that. Every 6th edition book has recived a lot of balancing tools. Old daemons was far better than new daemons, heck they play completly differant. Out of anyone who should be really complaining is them. Did I go daemons suck a big suck. No I read and read played several games and made the new army work for me. I am still partying that the runes of warding is gone, and I like Eldar more than Daemons.

Eldar recived a lot of strong tools. To note all the flyers except the helldrake is not that impressive for all the 6th edition codexex. I wouldn't be surprised they nerf the other flyers when x books come out. You know that vendetta nerf is coming.

Why harp on the banshees. It's like a dead horse get over it. I ca mention daemonettes got the same treatment. They lost assault, defensive grenades, + 1 int, +1 attack, was fearless, was leadership 10 and now reduced to 7, etc. I am told not to complain since they drop 5 points and have a better ws which means they got a buff, umm no they didn't it means I have to throw a bunch of buffs, independant character, and gear to make them usable. Old daemonettes I could leave as is and they would own.

My daemonettes turned into a counter charging unit instead of run up the lines and do what they do. Your banshees have power weapons and can receive a bunch of buffs.

Man my healrds of Nurgle and Slannech psykers are leadership 8. The old clean one and princes are 9. Not really complaing, but at least I have more than 1 wound.

If you compare Eldar you have to compare them to 6th edition codexes already out there. Necrons could suck worst in their next codex. I wouldn't be surprised Grey Knights get the nerf axe. At least not as bad as taking them as allies with them allowing units to fire up deep striking units over and over again.

I look at the wraithknight and think the riptide would love those weapon options. 2 36" strength 10 ap 1 shots really suck. I mean I can rain some fire on that mono, it's ok I have fire dragons for that. After game is lost. My eldar suck my fire dragons always get shot up and my wraithknight was ignored with it's 3 shot blast weapon and blinding invulnerable save. Heck if that is what you think is good on it especally what I run in my Tau army I can ignore it. 2 strength 10 makes it a target since it can pop my tanks at range.

[HERO]

I can say you say the Eldar sucks and can't win games. Don't dig your way out of that. You completely ignore any buffs the army has received and go strait to the negatives.

Let's be clear:
Saying the design is poor in some areas, inconsistent and didn't translate well from the fluff is NOT the same thing as "Eldar sucks and can't win games."

If that's what you think, then I have nothing more to say. In fact, I'm sure if you read my review in the first place, you will see this is not the case.

[chicop76]

Don't even try to dig yourself out of that one man.

The fact you mentioned Tau and nerfed in the same sentence is just outrageous. They're one of the best armies right now, for a 6th Ed. book to ascend to GK and Necron levels is pretty bad for the game.

In which ways did they receive nerfs that weren't made up or completely overshadowed by the buffs they received? Just pretend you didn't say anything and move on.

I see pathfinders and rangers are not good like they used to be. The only reason to still take them is due to iron arm, etc.

I see rangers worth taking, but don't really see the need for pathfinders. It's a lot of pounts so you can go around killing up grade characters.

[chicop76]

Let's be clear:
Saying the design is poor in some areas, inconsistent and didn't translate well from the fluff is NOT the same thing as "Eldar sucks and can't win games."

If that's what you think, then I have nothing more to say. In fact, I'm sure if you read my review in the first place, you will see this is not the case.

I can say the same to you. You trying to make it sound like I said Tau sucks when I just pointed what got nerfed in the army. I see it pointless to point out that if ethereal x is by 24 fire warriors they can rapid fire 72 times. It's a given that everyone understands that. The hq options is a good reason why Tau is soo much better( one of many).

I just being selective how you was being. If you don't want me to be selective than don't do it to others.

Your review went on that it sucks over all, but was in the middle of the 6th edition codexes. Tau and Daemons beat this codex. Which means you are saying it is better the chaos marines and dark angels I guess. Looking and reading reports and seeing it's the same author eldar is probably tied with Chaos Marines. We can all agree this codex is better than Dark Angels.

[Mkvenner]

My list was thrown together out of whatever was in the back of my car.

Asurmen, Farseer with fancy jewelry stone. Asurmen got the warlord version of doom, stealth and no scatter within 6" warlord powers. Farseer got Doom, Mind War and that divination power that lets you fire on full overwatch.

Two full squads of DA's. One squad with a worthless twl avenger cat exarch (totally dumb fyi) and one pumped up exarch with PW/SS, disarm and something else that didn't make a difference.
Both squads in Wave Serpents with cannon upgrades and HF's. One with Bright lance, one with scatter laser

Squad of 4 spiders + exarch with spinnerette rifle, fast shot and power blades

Squad of 2 war walkers with all scatter lasers
Squad of 2 war walkers with starcannons

Rangers were almost complete crap. Couldn't even pick out the plasma cannons before they died. Only reason I say "almost" is because they did suck up a lot of shooting with their stealth.

Doom that works on vehicles is awesome. Its the only power I actually casted.

Wave serpents ftw. There's no arguing about that.

Warp spiders that didn't scatter thanks to Asurmen completely wiped out the terminator squad hoofing it across the board. Evil nasty little arachnids!

Avengers don't do nearly enough damage - the lost of old bladestorm is really crappy. I BARELY killed 4 marines in cover with a full squad - only rended 2 times and that brings me to the next point..

I got really lucky. I don't think I would have won otherwise. I don't like having to rely on luck honestly.

It was nice to see how lucky you got! What all do you have available other than the units that were in your car?

Wave Serpents are indeed almost too good. Their cost keeps them leveled.

I would have chucked Guardians inside the Serpents with either Starcannons, Scatter Lasers, or Bright Lances. They are cheaper and protected in the Wave Serpent anyways.

Rangers at this point are pretty objective holders. I wouldn't expect them to do much really other than try and survive and hold an objective in the backfield.

Everybody likes War Walkers and I can agree for the most part. I am surprised you didn't try and get the Fate Primaris over Mind War.

Warp Spiders are really good. I also like a 6 man unit of Swooping Hawks for objective clearing.

[HERO]

I can say the same to you. You trying to make it sound like I said Tau sucks when I just pointed what got nerfed in the army. I see it pointless to point out that if ethereal x is by 24 fire warriors they can rapid fire 72 times. It's a given that everyone understands that. The hq options is a good reason why Tau is soo much better( one of many).

So what got nerfed in the army? What got buffed?

I'm sure if you go down that route you're just going to sound really silly.


Your review went on that it sucks over all, but was in the middle of the 6th edition codexes. Tau and Daemons beat this codex. Which means you are saying it is better the chaos marines and dark angels I guess. Looking and reading reports and seeing it's the same author eldar is probably tied with Chaos Marines. We can all agree this codex is better than Dark Angels.

This is not true, if you know how to read.

I'll leave this review here for all those interested:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/06/gds-eldar-review.html

Nowhere did I say that it sucks over all, and I would argue the entire section on Internal Balance is actually quite positive ;) Which again, is actually the best thing about the codex.

[rle68]

. When wolves and nids come around expect their anti psychic defense to be nerfed.



threw out everything but this and all i can say to you is when the next wolves dex is out in like 10 years ill worry about then.. until 3+ within 24 njal says NO

[rle68]

Hero

Actually read your review and i find it to be utter trash and totally lacking in any depth at all.

you left out so much of the new codex your review deserves an apology to everyone who reads.. and to be blunt your opinion is like everyones elses butt it pretty much stinks

you mention so very little of the codex i am forced to wonder did you even read it for what you left out

your review is full of so much whining i wonder if its time to change your diaper.. alot of they should have done this should have done that.. enough already

a direct quote of yours """" Eldar is one of those armies that is not auto-pilot """ and since they are more difficult to your lack of playing skill they suck now right? thats what your review says

and so im not completely just bashing you with nothing to back up "MY OPINION"

"""Stacking Conceal on your bikes with your Ld.8 Warlocks is great and taking a bunch of scoring Wraiths is great, but what happens when your opponent is Tau and he rips your cover while dropping S8 AP2 templates on your Wraithguard?"""

If you have your wraithguard in the open for them to marker light them then i go back to my comment about your lack of playing ability.. you kill the pathfinders and his marker lights your Wg ride in their wave serpent .. can you not grasp that?

[HERO]

It's not supposed to be an in-depth review. It's to highlight several design principles and not the actual units. Did you miss that part too?

OK. I'm pretty done with this thread. I can't fathom how some of you manage to wipe your own ***.

[rle68]

no what you did was give a review of the codex and leave out 70% of the codex to suite your opinion of what you didnt like

[HERO]

no what you did was give a review of the codex and leave out 70% of the codex to suite your opinion of what you didnt like

It's a design focused review, I don't expect you or most people to understand.

You're probably more suited to read this one:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/06/eldar-codex-first-impressions.html

[calamitycal]

You don't need to all play it and against it to see shoddy design. But this is something that I don't expect many people to understand first hand, and that's fine.


It's a design focused review, I don't expect you or most people to understand.

Is it fun or lonely to be that far above everyone else? I'd imagine the latter, but I'm curious.

I see what you are saying. Challenging the "design" isn't the same as saying it's weak or it's powerful. The "review" is just just saying it's poorly designed, not a judgement on the power level. In your opinion of course. Anyway, that's really just neckbearding.

The more important things are will the Codex be fun to play and/or how will it hold up against other Codexes. I'm not convinced on the codex either way. I think writing "reviews" of it (good or bad) at this stage makes for fun reading, but nothing more than that. Any conclusions drawn are premature. Some may hold true, some may not. The fun part is finding out which.

[HERO]

Actually, it's the former, with a slice of arrogance as well. Coincidence I play Eldar and Dark Eldar? I think not!

The truth of it is that I haven't been wrong about a book's inner workings and power since I started the hobby ~12+ years ago. By the way the current book is presented, you can only go so far without the edition changing to benefit your army.

I can only say wait and see, but this isn't the first time I've made an open prediction and have been right. You can quote me on this.

[Lost Vyper]

Yep, played the Laser Lock wrong :( ,well that sucks...*sigh*, still gonna roll with 2 x SL´s on WW´s thou. What i learned reading the book more...
- A MUST have a farseer on bike, cos, T4 / & 3+/4+ with 15p, thank you...
- And this one...Autarch on a bike, with Banshee Mask+Fusion Gun+Shard of Anaris+Mantle of Laughing God = 180p...is this a Linebreaking unit with a Chaos Challenger Killer! He has 3+/2+ Cover save (which he can re-roll), Jit & Run and a 5+ invl. save and T4! So gonna test him on the next game!

[DarkLink]

Except the Shard sucks. Rending is not adequate for a single model's CC attacks at that level of expected performance. AP3 is a minimum, and AP2 is pretty important. High Str has to come with it as well. That limits you to the Firesaber as the only decent CC weapon available to an Autarch or Farseer, and even then Str 4 Ap3 is mediocre. Unless you only ever face Orks, with no Meganobz. Then I guess other weapons are ok.

Also, my vote is for Warp Jump Generator+Mantle+Falcon Wings, because it's hilariously fast. Does anyone make a model of Apollo, with his winged sandals? Or maybe the Flash.

[cebalrai]

It's a design focused review, I don't expect you or most people to understand.

You're probably more suited to read this one:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/06/eldar-codex-first-impressions.html


After playing three matches with the new codex all I can say is that Battle Focus is an exceptionally good power. I've yet to see a review properly appreciate it.

I didn't hate your article but you did one thing that really irritates me. The bit about Wraithblades where you use "what if you're playing against Riptides" as a counter argument against them.

- The first reason it bothers me is that there's always going to be some unit that's a counter so why mention it?

- The second reason is that S8 AP2 cover-ignoring plates are the counter for most units in the game so why mention it? Shouldn't you also mention that Riptides will ace Spiders, Hawks, Scorpions, and every other unit in the Eldar codex that doesn't rhyme with Pave Derpent? And then whenever you review any other codex's units also mention that Riptides might plate them too?


Stupid markerlighted Riptide plates that nobody can defend against are stupid. The Tau codex is a lazy piece of horse pucky IMO. Tau needed a buff so they just said that nobody can make save rolls against them. Getting shot up with no saves allowed is just a part of playing against Tau - it's like a tax.

[Leirgoth]

Banshees als allow you to take wave serpents as cheap elite option for it. In other words it's the cheapest Elite unit which allows you to take wave serpents as elites.

If i were taking banshees just for the serpents, something is really really wrong then.

Its just bad when the banshee point was to strike first, sort of melee glass cannon, and now its the opposite; it doesnt matter the point cost of the unit, its a bad designed unit.

We need to wait for the faqs, maybe banshees and shining spears will take grenades, and bikes will use battle focus, bikes giving +1R... so many mistakes in this codex...


PM: sorry if i did any writing mistakes, im spanish(canary islands) and of course, english its not my main language

[Learn2Eel]

After playing three matches with the new codex all I can say is that Battle Focus is an exceptionally good power. I've yet to see a review properly appreciate it.

I did! :D

[Defenestratus]

Did he know what Lance did or know what cover is?





Yeah he asked if anything in my army had lance and I pointed out my wave serpent did. He still put his land raider in reach of it because the land raider was headed right at my "castle" with his librarian and choppy dudes. He put the land raider in cover but with a 12" move I was able to get a different facing on it so it wasn't in cover.

One thing I've noticed is that exarchs are way too expensive for a single T3 3+ wound guy. Even if he has a LoS roll, my DA exarch with PW/SS and two exarch powers was like 70 points almost. Thats a whole other squad of rangers. Same with the warp spider exarch (20 pts for powerblades!? really?)

War walkers were quite deadly, and giving them move-shoot-move was seriously just wrong. I felt guilty using them they were that good. Battle focus played a minor role in my game... it allowed my DA's to unmount from a wave serpent, unload into a tac squad, then jump back into a piece of LOS blocking terrain to hide from the plasma cannons - then of course on the war walkers as well...

[chicop76]

I now using banshes as paper weight's they not useless. When I travel I think I will use them like picture gnomes, it will be so cool. Oh. The cheapest way to take a serpent in the Elite slot is to take Banshees.

I doubt they would get grenades. I point to daemonettes that suffer from the same problem. However if banshees get grenades I guess with enough whinning Daemonettes would get grenades back as well. I sure miss defensive and assault grenades on my damonettes. Looking at the banshees it's like the look at the new Daemonettes and did this.

Damonettes comparison:
+3 run roll check
-5 I check
No assault grenades check
Both I 5 Check
Both strength 3 check

The power sword make them better than damonettes vs overall units. Although daemonettes would own banshees due to power weapons do nothing to invulnerable save and rending would play a factor making up for the possible +4 save. 1 to 1 it would be a good fight, but since the daemonettes outnumber the banshee, the banshee would lose.

@hero I read your article. In the words of one of the responders " it's a good article, butt it is written by a fan boy". Nuff said. It's very biased. It's like Taking the Tau and focusing on it's negatives. Oh I did mention several nerfs they received. It's like grey knight give them force weapons and 10 point strength 7 assault cannons with the added profile of assault 2 it makes up for the 20+ nerfs that the army recived.

I did read in a response that a 120" sniper bike farseer went into rage mode and killed 4 terminators. All I have to say to that is right. If he did that must had been a lot of ones rolled. I don't see that happening a lot.

Your review was like this. Why bother taking a Riptide. A rune priest with jaws of the warp wolf can onse shot the Riptide making it useless. Heck it can wipe out a good portion of the Tau army. If 4 priest are taken how is Tau able to deal with that. I say it's best not to field a Riptide due to I 2 being a huge factor. It's best to leave them home due to Jaws of the Warp Wolf.

Oh and Pathfinders, don't bring those guys. One skullcannon shot ( strength 8 ap 5 ignores cover, some people think it's used purly for offensive grenades). I can't get my pathfinders to survie thos skull cannon shots. That pie plae is too much. I can't save against it, so why bother with pathfinders at all.

If you want me to mention just wolves than insert whirlwind for same effect.

[Defenestratus]

It was nice to see how lucky you got! What all do you have available other than the units that were in your car?

Wave Serpents are indeed almost too good. Their cost keeps them leveled.

I would have chucked Guardians inside the Serpents with either Starcannons, Scatter Lasers, or Bright Lances. They are cheaper and protected in the Wave Serpent anyways.

Rangers at this point are pretty objective holders. I wouldn't expect them to do much really other than try and survive and hold an objective in the backfield.

Everybody likes War Walkers and I can agree for the most part. I am surprised you didn't try and get the Fate Primaris over Mind War.

Warp Spiders are really good. I also like a 6 man unit of Swooping Hawks for objective clearing.

I have every "old" eldar unit in the book - I just didn't have all that with me. (Found out that my normal thursday evening task at work got canceled so I grabbed some cases and headed to the store in a hurry)

I don't like guardians honestly. Still don't. Dire Avengers did an ok job and they maintained distance from a nasty terminator squad.

As for the choice of psychic power - I rolled Mind war first and my strategy is to not cash in on the primaris power unless I get death mission. I just don't think guide is needed that much in an army thats now BS4 across the board. The war walkers certainly didn't need it.

[chicop76]

Yeah he asked if anything in my army had lance and I pointed out my wave serpent did. He still put his land raider in reach of it because the land raider was headed right at my "castle" with his librarian and choppy dudes. He put the land raider in cover but with a 12" move I was able to get a different facing on it so it wasn't in cover.

One thing I've noticed is that exarchs are way too expensive for a single T3 3+ wound guy. Even if he has a LoS roll, my DA exarch with PW/SS and two exarch powers was like 70 points almost. Thats a whole other squad of rangers. Same with the warp spider exarch (20 pts for powerblades!? really?)

War walkers were quite deadly, and giving them move-shoot-move was seriously just wrong. I felt guilty using them they were that good. Battle focus played a minor role in my game... it allowed my DA's to unmount from a wave serpent, unload into a tac squad, then jump back into a piece of LOS blocking terrain to hide from the plasma cannons - then of course on the war walkers as well...


Translation: Was you playing a noob. Only reason Eldar won.

[rle68]

It's a design focused review, I don't expect you or most people to understand.

You're probably more suited to read this one:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/06/eldar-codex-first-impressions.html

the only thing worse then your bias and lack of playing skill is your arrogance

[eldargal]

the only thing worse then your bias and lack of playing skill is your arrogance
This.

He declares himself objective, then he insults in the intelligence of anyone who dares disagree with him, refuses to accept or acknowledge any counter-argument and then goes on to say how he hasn't been wrong in 12 years. Funny that. Nothing worse than obnoxious, self appointed neckbeard 'experts'. Just do what I did and put him in your Ignore list. It's all he's worth.


Translation: Was you playing a noob. Only reason Eldar won.
He says he felt guilty for using War Walkers because they were so good and all you can say is the only reason he won is because he played a newb? That's logical.:rolleyes:

[chicop76]

This.

He declares himself objective, then he insults in the intelligence of anyone who dares disagree with him, refuses to accept or acknowledge any counter-argument and then goes on to say how he hasn't been wrong in 12 years. Funny that. Nothing worse than obnoxious, self appointed neckbeard 'experts'. Just do what I did and put him in your Ignore list. It's all he's worth.


He says he felt guilty for using War Walkers because they were so good and all you can say is the only reason he won is because he played a newb? That's logical.:rolleyes:


It was a fail quote. I was trying to quote doggy picture and Hero at the same time. Hero asked if his opponent knew what a lance weapon was and if he had cover. I was translating what he really meant by asking said question.

However I notice it's a common response here. If you win and said tactic or unit sucks they had to be a nood. Keeping with tradition anytime an Eldar player wins it's due to the other player was noob or wasn't properly preapred to handle the new eldar.

[Learn2Eel]

I must say that it is hard designing an Eldar army, and it isn't because of unit costs or anything like that. It is figuring out what units to take out of a very well balanced list. I want to take a Fire Prism and two War Walker Squadrons, but feel a yearning towards Dark Reapers, Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries and Wraithlords. The internal balance is simply fantastic, as I actively feel like all of the units are worthwhile and want to field them.

[DrLove42]

I'm using a Prism, a group fo Reapers and a Wraithlord in my list right now. 2 Wave Serpents to back them up and few fun bits.

[Learn2Eel]

Has anyone tried using an "AV12" spam list yet? Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms out the wazoo, with maybe one or two Crimson Hunters thrown in as a "just in case" precaution.

[Defenestratus]

He says he felt guilty for using War Walkers because they were so good and all you can say is the only reason he won is because he played a newb? That's logical.:rolleyes:

In his defense, the guy I played was not a noob. He'd only played (old) Eldar a handful of times so he really didn't know what my stuff did but he really didn't make any fatal mistakes... The only mistake he really made was keeping a combat squad of tac marines exposed to a squad of war walkers. He deep struck a MM dread right behind one of my serpents and rolled a 1 to hit with the MM... I mean it was that kind of game for him.

[Defenestratus]

Has anyone tried using an "AV12" spam list yet? Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms out the wazoo, with maybe one or two Crimson Hunters thrown in as a "just in case" precaution.

After seeing the utter ruin that Wave Serpents can unleash last night - I'm seriously thinking about spamming serpents.

[Learn2Eel]

They do seem quite fantastic to me. Laughably, even dealing with flyers isn't too much of a problem for them as they can ignore flyers better than most other ground vehicles!