Eldar Codex: So, What Do You Think Of It?

[chicop76]

I must say that it is hard designing an Eldar army, and it isn't because of unit costs or anything like that. It is figuring out what units to take out of a very well balanced list. I want to take a Fire Prism and two War Walker Squadrons, but feel a yearning towards Dark Reapers, Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries and Wraithlords. The internal balance is simply fantastic, as I actively feel like all of the units are worthwhile and want to field them.

Eldar was always kinda hard to build an all comers list. Once wolves get nerfed to 6th standards I can finally go back to mono Tzeentch. Until than I must wait for them to get nerfed.

On the bright side I am fielding half Tzeentch thanks to the new Eldar codex. Me and my Daemon coven loved the nerf of one gear.

I do agree that Eldar have more utility with their psykers than any one else. I don't think they have more acess which I think they should have done.

The big 3 psykers in 6th

Eldrad, Ahirliman, and Fateweaver

They all level 4 psykers, but the better of the three it's a tie between Eldrad and the Chaos Marine one. Fateweaver would had been good if he can use all his heads at once and be a master 8 psyker, or at least put diviation and biomancy on the same head. I understand balance, but it is hard to use at times depending on what powers you randomly roll. The Tzeentch powers are not bad, but it limits his support capability. If you flickering fire for 4d6 shoots than you can only use one other power. Fateweaver is not bad, but is a difficult model to use to try to maximise it's potential.

Let's look at what Eldrad can do.

He has 2 attacks with a nasty force weapon with ok stats compared to the other two. Fateweaver only needs one hit in to kill him which would make it an interesting fight and against the chaos lord I forgot if he is +2 armour or 3+. If 3+ Eldrad wins in combat, but if +2 the chaos marine would win. However due to having a fleshbane force weapon he's not bad in combat and not to mention a 3+ invulnerable. Death Mission which unless I really had to it wouldn't be a bad ideal. A thirster in your face for example. He could kill the Thirster with Death Mission active.

He can re roll failed test and if for some odd reason take a perils he can use a warp charge to prevent him from taking the hit.

He can redeploy d3+1 units which isn't bad. If you infiltrated in a bad spot or wanted to stop a hound scout rush, you can re deploy your infiltraters back in your deployment zone.

He can cast 4 random powers.

What is cool and make him worth while is that he can get warp charge points back after he cast. Which means it's possible for him to cast 4 powers that cost 2 charge points. Also it gives him a pool to protect him self from peril checks.

Even so I am realy not impressed since I can get a farseer with one less power and take a gear that makes 2 charge power cost 1 and gear him with runes of witnessing and he would be just as good for less points. Eldrad is for people who get stuck in combat.

The problem with the Farseer and Eldrad is this. Diviation and Telepathy both have good powers and have good fall back powers. Telepathy works really well with warlocks being able to -3 leadership vs other models. The problem lies in Runes of Fate.

Runes of Fate:
This is what advatage that Eldar has over both Chaos armies. The Chaos armies have 3 powers and one fall back power. The Farseer has 6 powers and one fall back. However if you look at both of the chaos armies powers 2/3 of the choices you have are actually good with a good fall back. It's not always the case, but rolling on 3 power increases the chance of getting the power you really want. Like nurgle daemons getting a large pie plate that wounds on 4s and is ap 3, great on a winnged prince.

With runes of fate have 6 differant powers it lessens your chance of getting doom or fortune. The problem with the fall back power is that you could had gone diviation and got prescience which is better than guide. Which means the only reason you are rolling on runes of fate is to get doom and guide. I think taking doom away completetly and changing the chart to getting fortune on a 1-2 would had been a lot better. If I roll all 3 times I am bound to get fortune.

I also think having acess to runes of battle would had helped as well.

In a nut shell Eldrad is not bad compared to the other 6th psykers, but is he better than Ahirliman

Ahriman

He has a force weapon as well and ok stats, double the amountof attacks that Eldrad has, how ever I think Eldrad would win in a fight

He can allow you to infiltrate d3 units. That's rather good

He has biomancy, pyromancy, telepathy and Tzeentch power.

Overall I would personally choose Ahriman even though Eldrad is cheaper.

What is said a chaos sorcery is arguable better than Ahriman. I would even say a Socereor is better than a Farseer. Especially if they take the gear that generates extra powers a turn.

Also looking at Demons as a whole the caster in the book are easily better than warlocks or on par with Farseers, or in the case of a Tzeentch prince better.

However seeing how psychic powers come from the warp it shouldn't be surprising the Daemons are better psykers and chaos marines are right behind. I am still figuring out why daemons take perils in the first place and eldar can deal with perils better than daemons can.

[chicop76]

They do seem quite fantastic to me. Laughably, even dealing with flyers isn't too much of a problem for them as they can ignore flyers better than most other ground vehicles!

With al that twin linked shooting it's like they have skyfire. It makes taking dark reaper almost mute. I was looking at warpspiders, but in a way the serpents kind make them mute as well.

[HERO]

He declares himself objective, then he insults in the intelligence of anyone who dares disagree with him, refuses to accept or acknowledge any counter-argument and then goes on to say how he hasn't been wrong in 12 years. Funny that. Nothing worse than obnoxious, self appointed neckbeard 'experts'. Just do what I did and put him in your Ignore list. It's all he's worth.

What counter-argument do you have for me girl?


the only thing worse then your bias and lack of playing skill is your arrogance

Come get stomped on Vassal ;)

[cebalrai]

Has anyone tried using an "AV12" spam list yet? Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms out the wazoo, with maybe one or two Crimson Hunters thrown in as a "just in case" precaution.


I'm going to do it in an 1850 tournament next weekend and I'll let you know how it turns out. Six Wave Serpents, five Guardian heavy weapons backing them up, a War Walker squadron, and a Vibro-Vaul's, and a Dark Reaper unit with Farseer with Guide and Prescience. Haven't totaled that up yet... Man I hate not having Army Builder :(

Depending on my opponent I may not even bother putting Guardians in the Serpents.

[Defenestratus]

I must say that it is hard designing an Eldar army, and it isn't because of unit costs or anything like that. It is figuring out what units to take out of a very well balanced list. I want to take a Fire Prism and two War Walker Squadrons, but feel a yearning towards Dark Reapers, Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries and Wraithlords. The internal balance is simply fantastic, as I actively feel like all of the units are worthwhile and want to field them.

Personally I'm turned off of Dark Reapers. I just don't see how they're worth 30ppm base.

[cebalrai]

Personally I'm turned off of Dark Reapers. I just don't see how they're worth 30ppm base.


They get you another Wave Serpent while they do their thing though.

[Defenestratus]

They get you another Wave Serpent while they do their thing though.

better and cheaper ways of getting a serpent though.

[HERO]

better and cheaper ways of getting a serpent though.

This one of mine has a good amount of DE elements as well:


1849
17 kp

HQ:
Farseer (JB, Spear, Mantle) = 160
Succubus (VB) = 70*

TROOPS:
5x Dire Avengers (WS/Holo/Scatter/SC) = 210
5x Dire Avengers (WS/Holo/Scatter/SC) = 210
5x Warriors (Venom NS/SC, Blaster) = 135*
5x Jetbikes (SC) = 95
4x Jetbikes (SC) = 78

ELITE:
3x Trueborn (Venom NS/SC, 3x Blasters) = 156*

FA:
Crimson Hunter Exarch = 180

HEAVY:
Fire Prism (Holofields, SS) = 150
Fire Prism (Holofields, SS) = 150
Night Spinner (Holofields, SS) = 140
Ravager (NS) = 115*

This gives me plenty of lances, 5 AV12 grav-tanks, 24 shots with Poison @ 36" that can be guided twice, and 9x total scoring Jetbikes.

I've been having a lot of success with this list. Quad-guns just die instantly to the guided Venoms and as long as my CHE doesn't fly in early, enemy fliers are no problem as well.

[noahwood]

Except the Shard sucks. Rending is not adequate for a single model's CC attacks at that level of expected performance. AP3 is a minimum, and AP2 is pretty important. High Str has to come with it as well.

I will note that the shard gives the user +2 Str. Rending is definitely unreliable, but Fleshbane and Instant Death plus Rending in challenges becomes pretty damn good. Obviously, there are some situations you may want to avoid, but you should be able to be choosy if you mount the bearer with a bike, wings or a jump generator. I'm really excited to try it on the table coupled with the obligatory Mantle of the Laughing God.

[Demonus]

Personally I'm turned off of Dark Reapers. I just don't see how they're worth 30ppm base.

Depends what you face I guess. If you fight a lot of marines or guys that hug cover, they are amazing.

[Eldar_Atog]

Personally I'm turned off of Dark Reapers. I just don't see how they're worth 30ppm base.

It depends on what kind of army I am building. If I am going with a static gunline list, I'll have a squad of Reapers. If I'm going with a mobile list, I'll probably use Fire Prisms or War Walkers.

Truthfully, my only complaints about the codex are lurking in the Elite section. The other parts of the codex have plenty of fun things to take :)

[DarkLink]

He declares himself objective, then he insults in the intelligence of anyone who dares disagree with him, refuses to accept or acknowledge any counter-argument and then goes on to say how he hasn't been wrong in 12 years. Funny that. Nothing worse than obnoxious, self appointed neckbeard 'experts'. Just do what I did and put him in your Ignore list. It's all he's worth.


While I agree with a lot of his assessment, I'd forgotten how much of a tool he is. He did the same crap with the GK codex.

[HERO]

While I agree with a lot of his assessment, I'd forgotten how much of a tool he is. He did the same crap with the GK codex.

What did I do with the GK Codex? Call it sh*t? You think it deserves better?

Get over it. Don't cry about one man's opinion over the internet. I'm sorry you don't like hearing the truth and live in an delusional world where the game is amazing and every book has no flaws.

[bfmusashi]

Ah, the lone voice of truth. So good to have you back as I'd long mistaken my own opinions valid.

[legalsmash]

This.

He declares himself objective, then he insults in the intelligence of anyone who dares disagree with him, refuses to accept or acknowledge any counter-argument and then goes on to say how he hasn't been wrong in 12 years. Funny that. Nothing worse than obnoxious, self appointed neckbeard 'experts'. Just do what I did and put him in your Ignore list. It's all he's worth.


He says he felt guilty for using War Walkers because they were so good and all you can say is the only reason he won is because he played a newb? That's logical.:rolleyes:

Lets not forget to mock his sense of dress and general girth... his neck beard is not sufficiently puffed!

All jokes aside however, this guy sounds a LOT like Stelek off Dakka and BOK/Kirby/3++ all those sites. basically "this list" works, everything else is crap, and you are retarded if you think otherwise.

As for the actual codex I'm really looking forward to trying a mobile gunline/mech hybrid list see how that works for me. (I really want to use guardians en mass ala ulthwe.

[DarkLink]

By BOK, you mean Blood of Kittens? Cause they don't really do that. People just complain about Tasteytaste pimping his site. And Kirby himself at least pretends to be apologetic about it, even though most of the rest of their posters like Abuse Puppy are blatant.

I just find it funny because I'm friends irl with Reecius and his Footdar, and know quite a few very good players who take lists deemed crap and win very competitive events with them.

[rle68]

:P

[chicop76]

I seen a battle report that was interesting.

The player used tank shocking ram prows on his raiders with dark eldar with conjection with the new eldar plane with terrify. He force the guard/ eldar player to lose a chunk of his army. He was playing a seer council and managed -3 leadership on one of the space marine squads.

Tank shocking multiple squads with terrify looked to be pretty good against aegis shield back to the edge armies. I learned with my 4th edition Tau to not be back on the edge a long time ago.

[legalsmash]

I seen a battle report that was interesting.

The player used tank shocking ram prows on his raiders with dark eldar with conjection with the new eldar plane with terrify. He force the guard/ eldar player to lose a chunk of his army. He was playing a seer council and managed -3 leadership on one of the space marine squads.

Tank shocking multiple squads with terrify looked to be pretty good against aegis shield back to the edge armies. I learned with my 4th edition Tau to not be back on the edge a long time ago.

I have seen a very similar tactic talked about online agaisnt low LD or nonfearless standard LD armies. I see it being a great way to get nonfearless CMS off table if you time it right, but on the other hand, the planes can be dropped by massed bolter fire, which worries me to a degree. Its a shame holofields aren't an option on hemlocks that I know of.

In a perfect world they would have holofields and I could warpgate guardians around the field.

@ Dark, I've seen tasty and reecius articles, I'm fine with their commentary. My dig was more toward the steleks and aforementioned individual of the board we were all discussing. I like alternate lists that aren't eternal spams, but then again I give not one care for "competitive play" at this point. When I play someone with a WAAC spam list, this was especially true in 5th ed, it would get really unenjoyable really quickly.

[DarkLink]

Oh, yeah, Reece is awesome. If you ever get a chance to hang out with him, do it. I've only met Tasteytaste a couple of time, but he seems like a pretty cool guy, too. Stelek, though... I feel like washing my hands after just mentioning his name.

A lot of "experts" also tend to ignore a lot of softer aspects of the game (not the hobby stuff, but the stuff you can't define with mathhammer). I can't say how many times I've heard people say Draigowing is crap because mathmatically MSU Grey Knights can utilize their firepower more efficiently, yet somehow Blackmoor and others keep winning (though that's more of a 5th ed thing). There are some definite disadvantages to having a limited number of elite units, but there are some big advantages as well that often get ignored.

Besides, Goatboy seems to to the exact opposite of what 3++ and Stelek are convinced is the only possible way to ever win in 40k, and look at how many tournaments he's won. It's funny how taking a list that has lots of tactical options, even if it doesn't sacrifice everything for maximum firepower, allows a good tactician to pull off stuff a more straightforward list couldn't do.

[HERO]

Lets not forget to mock his sense of dress and general girth... his neck beard is not sufficiently puffed!

All jokes aside however, this guy sounds a LOT like Stelek off Dakka and BOK/Kirby/3++ all those sites. basically "this list" works, everything else is crap, and you are retarded if you think otherwise.

As for the actual codex I'm really looking forward to trying a mobile gunline/mech hybrid list see how that works for me. (I really want to use guardians en mass ala ulthwe.

Actually, I never said anything remotely close to that. There's tons of options in the Eldar book; which is why I said the internal balance is solid. What makes me angry is the shoddy design elsewhere.

I feel like this is the fifth time I've said the same thing. Somewhere down the line, it'll catch on.

Let's try it again:
The internal balance is fine.
I never said the book sucks.
There are plenty of player options.
I do not think the book will be powerful in 6th; it will be in the middle of the pack.
I am, however, disappointed at many of the design choices in the book.

Is that clear enough? Probably not, because I think my entire argument of "the design sucks" somehow translates to "this book sucks" for a lot of people. This is not an easy fix, and I'm willing to accept that.

[chicop76]

Oh, yeah, Reece is awesome. If you ever get a chance to hang out with him, do it. I've only met Tasteytaste a couple of time, but he seems like a pretty cool guy, too. Stelek, though... I feel like washing my hands after just mentioning his name.

A lot of "experts" also tend to ignore a lot of softer aspects of the game (not the hobby stuff, but the stuff you can't define with mathhammer). I can't say how many times I've heard people say Draigowing is crap because mathmatically MSU Grey Knights can utilize their firepower more efficiently, yet somehow Blackmoor and others keep winning (though that's more of a 5th ed thing). There are some definite disadvantages to having a limited number of elite units, but there are some big advantages as well that often get ignored.

Besides, Goatboy seems to to the exact opposite of what 3++ and Stelek are convinced is the only possible way to ever win in 40k, and look at how many tournaments he's won. It's funny how taking a list that has lots of tactical options, even if it doesn't sacrifice everything for maximum firepower, allows a good tactician to pull off stuff a more straightforward list couldn't do.

It boils down to a lot if things. Experance and tactics more often will win games. A winning list is what gives you options. Since 5th edition I have been try to play with smaller list. The problem with larger list you lose in tournaments due to time. Also taking objectives is key. Greyknights have a lot of options and can build many differant ways. What's unique is either they can scout or they can have even a dreadnought capable of scoring.

That is one thing I missed about my old sisters vs draigowing they actually do well. Simply due to a ton on strength 8 ap 1 all over the place and rending shooting attacks. Since the sister's ummm lost of power they have a tougher time against that build. My guard welocmes it. They have more melta and lascannons do you have models in your army.

Anyway I didn't say it would be an eazy win. Just some armies can deal with them better. The reason Grey Knights do sooo well is they are space marine killers, they kill space marines better than they kill daemons. Grey Knights should be called Space Marine Hunters. Since everyone plays marines they dominate due to the army is very well equiped to kill space marine. Not saying if they face nids or orcs it's an auto loss for knights. Just saying knights have a grand ole time beating up on marine armies, strength 5 ap 5 firing hurts hordes as well. Why the srength 5, guess they wanted to be Tau and force weapons came from khorne.

What is a tool anyway? I guess it's someone that is useful. Since tools are important to get a project done.

[deinol]

It's funny. An internally balanced book with lots of player choices that is balanced against other 6e books (ie, "middle of the pack" sounds like really good design to me. It all depends on what your design goals are.

My only complaint about the book is Banshees really deserve plasma grenades.

[chicop76]

It's funny. An internally balanced book with lots of player choices that is balanced against other 6e books (ie, "middle of the pack" sounds like really good design to me. It all depends on what your design goals are.

My only complaint about the book is Banshees really deserve plasma grenades.

Daemonette deserve to be I 6, assault grenades, and have defensive grenades. I can live without the other stuff like fearless and leadership 10. I would like grenades back for Daemonettes.

[Idaho11]

What counter-argument do you have for me girl?

And slightly misogynistic. You seem like a pleasure...

[cebalrai]

I do not think the book will be powerful in 6th; it will be in the middle of the pack.
I am, however, disappointed at many of the design choices in the book.




Really? I'm thinking the Codex is overall more powerful than Demons, Dark Angels, and CSM. It's below Tau but I think that's largely because Tau are overpowered and stupid.

But here's the kicker - overall power levels do not necessarily translate to codex vs codex matchups. And I think Eldar are now in a very good position to really tee off on Space Marine types in so many ways. And Hordish Orks and Nids don't seem like too much of an obstacle. The main threats to us are 5e Codexes that got an inadvertent bump moving to 6e. Let's see what Imperial Guard look like when they get updated them come back and reevaluate Eldar.

[deinol]

Daemonette deserve to be I 6, assault grenades, and have defensive grenades. I can live without the other stuff like fearless and leadership 10. I would like grenades back for Daemonettes.

Defensive grenades seems like an odd thing to have. Aren't all daemons fearless? That's just consistency. But this is a thread about Eldar, I care not about your filthy spawn.

[Defenestratus]

I seen a battle report that was interesting.

The player used tank shocking ram prows on his raiders with dark eldar with conjection with the new eldar plane with terrify. He force the guard/ eldar player to lose a chunk of his army. He was playing a seer council and managed -3 leadership on one of the space marine squads.

Tank shocking multiple squads with terrify looked to be pretty good against aegis shield back to the edge armies. I learned with my 4th edition Tau to not be back on the edge a long time ago.

I've always wanted to try that tactic with tank shocking wave serpents.

[HERO]

Really? I'm thinking the Codex is overall more powerful than Demons, Dark Angels, and CSM. It's below Tau but I think that's largely because Tau are overpowered and stupid.

But here's the kicker - overall power levels do not necessarily translate to codex vs codex matchups. And I think Eldar are now in a very good position to really tee off on Space Marine types in so many ways. And Hordish Orks and Nids don't seem like too much of an obstacle. The main threats to us are 5e Codexes that got an inadvertent bump moving to 6e. Let's see what Imperial Guard look like when they get updated them come back and reevaluate Eldar.

Are you comparing them to 6th Ed. books only? I'm looking at everything in 6th Ed., including all the older books as well. As it stands, I think they're in the middle of the pack. Here's hoping for no more Tau-level books.

[chicop76]

Really? I'm thinking the Codex is overall more powerful than Demons, Dark Angels, and CSM. It's below Tau but I think that's largely because Tau are overpowered and stupid.

But here's the kicker - overall power levels do not necessarily translate to codex vs codex matchups. And I think Eldar are now in a very good position to really tee off on Space Marine types in so many ways. And Hordish Orks and Nids don't seem like too much of an obstacle. The main threats to us are 5e Codexes that got an inadvertent bump moving to 6e. Let's see what Imperial Guard look like when they get updated them come back and reevaluate Eldar.


What you smoking. I want some.

I have yet to see Tau do well against flying circus and khorne hound rush. Not saying it can't, but dem khorne hounds is in your face. The problem with the hounds is you also have to deal with one or two bloodthirsters with them. Sigh.

I still see daemons, necrons, and grey knights win a lot in my area and that is with Tau. The only chaos marine armies is see is the ones taken as allies with daemons or necrons. Guess what the allies are eith a daemon prince or a helldrake. Thinking about it I haven't seen a full Chaos Marne army in awhile.

Heck eventhe reports I read pretty much say the above.

I would agree the Eldar is better than Dark Angels. We can disagree with Chaos Space Marins since they are really close with them. However if I see Eldar deal with a ton of hounds on top of princes and one or two thirsters than I will rank eldar higer. Typical hound rush is 40 hounds.

Oh! Daemons lost fearless. They have instability which makes them act like fearless from 5th edition. It's rarely happens since they rarely actually lose combat. Unles they are pink horrors or plague bearers. They all used to be 10 and was dropped to 7-9.

Banshees where obviously copied off the Daemonette material from 6th. If Daemonettes lost grenades I can see why they do the same to banshees. They are very similar except on have invulnerables and rending, while the other have power swords and a +4 save. In otherwords if banshee get grenades Damonettes should get them too. Hell all of Slaanech should.

I tell you what to be fair you should as them to give one of your vehicles that shoot barrage weapons to give assault counters to units they hit. If you assault that unit you get assault grenades. Sounds balanced to me.

I serously think the intention is for you to strike at the same time as defenders. I think they think it's too much for you to assault troops in terrain and give them -5 intitiative. At least my -5 is stackable if I get it or able to pass the psychic cheack on leadership 8.

I can see terrify working with wave serpents. Would be interesting with matrix as well. If you can get some leadership negative modifiers kicking around you can run peoples armies off the table. It might be a good way to kil an ethereal so you can be in the rear of the unit

[legalsmash]

What you smoking. I want some.

I have yet to see Tau do well against flying circus and khorne hound rush. Not saying it can't, but dem khorne hounds is in your face. The problem with the hounds is you also have to deal with one or two bloodthirsters with them. Sigh.

I still see daemons, necrons, and grey knights win a lot in my area and that is with Tau. The only chaos marine armies is see is the ones taken as allies with daemons or necrons. Guess what the allies are eith a daemon prince or a helldrake. Thinking about it I haven't seen a full Chaos Marne army in awhile.

Heck eventhe reports I read pretty much say the above.

I would agree the Eldar is better than Dark Angels. We can disagree with Chaos Space Marins since they are really close with them. However if I see Eldar deal with a ton of hounds on top of princes and one or two thirsters than I will rank eldar higer. Typical hound rush is 40 hounds.

Oh! Daemons lost fearless. They have instability which makes them act like fearless from 5th edition. It's rarely happens since they rarely actually lose combat. Unles they are pink horrors or plague bearers. They all used to be 10 and was dropped to 7-9.

Banshees where obviously copied off the Daemonette material from 6th. If Daemonettes lost grenades I can see why they do the same to banshees. They are very similar except on have invulnerables and rending, while the other have power swords and a +4 save. In otherwords if banshee get grenades Damonettes should get them too. Hell all of Slaanech should.

I tell you what to be fair you should as them to give one of your vehicles that shoot barrage weapons to give assault counters to units they hit. If you assault that unit you get assault grenades. Sounds balanced to me.

I serously think the intention is for you to strike at the same time as defenders. I think they think it's too much for you to assault troops in terrain and give them -5 intitiative. At least my -5 is stackable if I get it or able to pass the psychic cheack on leadership 8.

I can see terrify working with wave serpents. Would be interesting with matrix as well. If you can get some leadership negative modifiers kicking around you can run peoples armies off the table. It might be a good way to kil an ethereal so you can be in the rear of the unit
banshees are still decent counter charge units despite fragility and lack of grenades will still be blenders if get a secondary charge

[rle68]

while some people lament banshees i honestly dont care i never used them nor had a use for them.. im now happy i can use wraithguard alot easier now

wave serpents are generally the only vehicle to use except bikes and they arent vehciles lol.. vypers on occasion.. the wave serpent is much better now then ever before

wraithguard with 10-2 done weapons and 1 d scythe will end more units then crappy dice rolls all while riding in a wave serpent..wraith blades... not sure not on them if i want something to go in assault ill take a wraith knight..how st 10 mc..seems like a good solution

guardians never used them.. ever.. snipers in 4th and 5th were the better way for me now .. not sure but... wraithguard and fire dragons for the win lol

[cebalrai]

What you smoking. I want some.

I have yet to see Tau do well against flying circus and khorne hound rush. Not saying it can't, but dem khorne hounds is in your face. The problem with the hounds is you also have to deal with one or two bloodthirsters with them. Sigh.

I still see daemons, necrons, and grey knights win a lot in my area and that is with Tau. The only chaos marine armies is see is the ones taken as allies with daemons or necrons. Guess what the allies are eith a daemon prince or a helldrake. Thinking about it I haven't seen a full Chaos Marne army in awhile.

Heck eventhe reports I read pretty much say the above.

I would agree the Eldar is better than Dark Angels. We can disagree with Chaos Space Marins since they are really close with them. However if I see Eldar deal with a ton of hounds on top of princes and one or two thirsters than I will rank eldar higer. Typical hound rush is 40 hounds.

Oh! Daemons lost fearless. They have instability which makes them act like fearless from 5th edition. It's rarely happens since they rarely actually lose combat. Unles they are pink horrors or plague bearers. They all used to be 10 and was dropped to 7-9.

Banshees where obviously copied off the Daemonette material from 6th. If Daemonettes lost grenades I can see why they do the same to banshees. They are very similar except on have invulnerables and rending, while the other have power swords and a +4 save. In otherwords if banshee get grenades Damonettes should get them too. Hell all of Slaanech should.

I tell you what to be fair you should as them to give one of your vehicles that shoot barrage weapons to give assault counters to units they hit. If you assault that unit you get assault grenades. Sounds balanced to me.

I serously think the intention is for you to strike at the same time as defenders. I think they think it's too much for you to assault troops in terrain and give them -5 intitiative. At least my -5 is stackable if I get it or able to pass the psychic cheack on leadership 8.

I can see terrify working with wave serpents. Would be interesting with matrix as well. If you can get some leadership negative modifiers kicking around you can run peoples armies off the table. It might be a good way to kil an ethereal so you can be in the rear of the unit


I know, Tau loses to Khorne Dog and a couple other things, but the reason they're so good is because they have the ability to just annihilate so many lists and the counters against them are relatively few. My FLGS runs tournaments with 12-24 people every month and Tau players are all undefeated the past two months except when facing other Tau. I fully expect them to get smoked by hard Tau counters, but they're less likely to face them in a decent-sized all-comers format.

Eldar can make a list that's hell on Tau too, in fact that was my very first experience with this codex. Guardian Serpent and deep strikers and the game was decided by turn 3. Turn 2 really. But I'd be reluctant to bring that list to a tournament.

Against CSM I think Eldar are significantly better. The Helldrake is going to be a hassle no matter what but other than that I think our codex will be nasty to them and their mediocre leadership. Another reason I think we're ahead of CSM is that their internal balance is nowhere near as good as ours. This means their lists are somewhat predictable while ours are unpredictable. I just think we have too much battlefield control, too many effective options against them. This is actually one very underrated aspect of the Eldar codex that I think reviewers aren't appreciating - we have the ability to be unpredictable in what we bring to the table and how we use it. So many other codexes don't have that advantage.

[AlaitocJib]

When I read some of the post from a couple of these users I feel my brain slowly suffocating itself. It hurts. And I hate saying that.

[cebalrai]

When I read some of the post from a couple of these users I feel my brain slowly suffocating itself. It hurts. And I hate saying that.


So basically posted for no other reason than to declare people to be stupid. If you have nothing nice to say....

[AlaitocJib]

So basically posted for no other reason than to declare people to be stupid. If you have nothing nice to say....

Because the last question I posted I got chewed out for doing so. And by further watching the same person post I start to question about them. It's not everyone save the person I'm thinking of.

[chicop76]

I know, Tau loses to Khorne Dog and a couple other things, but the reason they're so good is because they have the ability to just annihilate so many lists and the counters against them are relatively few. My FLGS runs tournaments with 12-24 people every month and Tau players are all undefeated the past two months except when facing other Tau. I fully expect them to get smoked by hard Tau counters, but they're less likely to face them in a decent-sized all-comers format.

Eldar can make a list that's hell on Tau too, in fact that was my very first experience with this codex. Guardian Serpent and deep strikers and the game was decided by turn 3. Turn 2 really. But I'd be reluctant to bring that list to a tournament.

Against CSM I think Eldar are significantly better. The Helldrake is going to be a hassle no matter what but other than that I think our codex will be nasty to them and their mediocre leadership. Another reason I think we're ahead of CSM is that their internal balance is nowhere near as good as ours. This means their lists are somewhat predictable while ours are unpredictable. I just think we have too much battlefield control, too many effective options against them. This is actually one very underrated aspect of the Eldar codex that I think reviewers aren't appreciating - we have the ability to be unpredictable in what we bring to the table and how we use it. So many other codexes don't have that advantage.

I agree with your thoughts on Chaos Space Marines. Their main argument is the Helldrake. It's the only thing that really closes the gap with Eldar. Also against Chaos Space maine's it's typically if they run x you know what's coming. Eldar plays with a lot differently and can change it's style rather easily. That's why I like Daemons.

If I was to place them I still tink Tau/ Daemons is the top 6th books than Eldar, Chaos Marines, and Dark Angels.

I am really waiting for a really big tournament to see how the 6th edition armies do. The problem with Tau is these things.

1. Everyone is on the band wagon which means less armies played overall.
2. I can teach a monkey to play Tau and do well.
3. They cover their basis pretty well better than other armies do.

The only time I lost with tau is when I took daemon allies, and the lost is due to the 1s I rolled which cause my units to sit there and look pretty. I would had won if it wasn't for that.

However I can say the same with my Daemons which I havn't lost a game with them yet.

The differance is with Daemons it's awesome since I can change up weapons and roll on so many powers to custom them to whom I am playing against. If I get strength 8 ap 1 ranged lance weapons I keep that going against armour etc. Got to love a 35 point alluress nuking a raider with a strength 8 ap 1 lance shot. The problem with Daemons is figuring out what to run. Everything is cheap until you hit your big stuff and want to use psychic powers. However the warp storm table is more helpful than it is harmful 1-4 hurts me, 5-6 8-9 ca hurt me but if you take instruments it really hurt your opponent, 10-12 is really crazy it litterly is almost way better than any of the negative I receive. Although -1 invulnerable saves army wide is not coo it's almost better to go second so the table can't hose you. Depending on how you play your daemon army you will do raher well since it's the best combat army in the game. I love how daemonettes still keep rending if dark excommuniicated now.

Than you look at Tau. As long as you are using Riptides, and Pathfinders with kroot snipers or sniper drones, and a sky ray or two than you're good. Broadsides are nice, but they are really overkill unless they can split fire.( overkill turns into wasted shots). Anyway if anything is within 36" they dominate. Take the battle long range they suffer. They suffer hard if they have to move across the board and are attacked in their deployment zone by reserve armies. Yes early warning helps, but you can only shoot so much. The problem I see is if you can keep Tau locked or bogged down in their deployment zone they have issues. The games I nearly lost was always from short board edge t short board edge or the corners. If it's long edge to long edge I slaughter my opponent.

My opservations with Tau and I beat Tau before is to stack your army where you are multi assaulting all over the place, or pelt them out of the 36" range. Kill the broadsides, tie up riptides, kill skyrays, kill ethereal. Than you are good for the most part. If an army rushes Tau on a weak flank Tau buckles. If Tau goes first it's not hard to do. If Tau goes second than it will hard to deal with them, unless you have scout and infiltraters, or have the ability to redeploy. Also los blocking terrain makes a huge differance when playing Tau. Do notice having a lot of terrain that does not block line of sight hugely favor Tau. It slows the other armies advance well tau strips saves and gun the army to death. My close games was short board game types and lots of line of sight blocking terrain. I actually do better in a heavy terrain environment as long as I can see my target.

What makes Eldar interesting is that eldar can actually out long range shoot Tau. The only long range in Tau's armies is the Riptides. Other than that the whole army is 36" range. They can take rail sides, which I do now, but they don't do to people saying high yeild this and that,so back to 36" range. You have your ion or railhead as well. So typically you have 3 units that can fire beyond 36". All of eldar's serpents can fire beyond 36". Same with lance weapons, prisoms, etc. The biggest thingis to target prioritize with Tau. Keep in mind I only played Daemons and Nids vs Tau and take advantage of endurance and multi-wound squads, plus deep striking. All I got to say with Tau it's best to get the bulk of your army within assault range. If one or two units can only assalut, a lot of times it's a bad ideal to do so. Assault first with throw awy or aout to die units first and them assault with your good stuff.

With eldar I expect serpent spam really. It's going to be who can deal with it. Also serpent spam forces armies to go anti tank, hopefully necrons should had been doing that anyway. With you able to get a huge chunk of your army across the table with relativey ease I can see Eldar beating Tau. Turn 1 wave serpents plop in Tau's face. 12"+18" = 30" movement. Tau fires everything into serpents causing glancing hits for the most part. Your guys disembark behind the nice line of sight blocking terrain. Turn 2 you can melta, flame, shoot, assault to your hearts content. Even if you lose half your army in turn 1 the half that made it across is enough to stomp the Tau into the dirt.

If Tau goes first they have how many weapons that shoot x range again. Even so you may lose 2-3 serpents maybe. Depending what the Tau player has. Than you rhino rush. I mean serpent rush and beat them senseless.

The beauty of serpent rush it does well against non high strength combat armies.

Crystal Matrix might not be a bad ideal so you can fire after moving flat out. If you load up on star cannons you can blast away those broadsides whounding on 2s ignore their armour save and twin linked.

The more I think about it getting your opponent to wreak your serpents really help you out. That way you can easily assult in turn 2.

Against combat armies you can move in your serpents and shoot them to death.

[lattd]

Am I the only one seeing the irony that falcons and serpents were the bees knees in 4th and now it's just serpents and prisms but footdar is much more flexible.

[Kirsten]

I don't think the serpent is really an issue personally. downgrade most hits to a glancing by all means, I will happily glance them to death, standard practice against eldar vehicles since 6th came out anyway given that holofields and spirit stones used to make them practically unkillable in one go. the prism is mental though, a shot for every occasion.

[cebalrai]

I don't think the serpent is really an issue personally. downgrade most hits to a glancing by all means, I will happily glance them to death, standard practice against eldar vehicles since 6th came out anyway given that holofields and spirit stones used to make them practically unkillable in one go. the prism is mental though, a shot for every occasion.


If the Eldar player is rushing flat-out a half-dozen Wave Serpents at you on turn one, getting a 4+ or 3+ cover save, how many will you happily glance to death that turn? You'd better say a whole lot, because if you don't then you'll end up getting massacred on turn 2 when they dump like eighty S6-S8 (often AP2, often lance) shots on you plus another 144 S4 rending shots from six dozen moody Guardians.

Just doing the math here, you'll have to roll 12+ on armor penetration six times to kill one Wave Serpent moving flat-out, 7.5 times if they also have cheap holo-fields. I'm just not thinking people are going to come equipped to do that.

[DarkLink]

I feel like this is the fifth time I've said the same thing. Somewhere down the line, it'll catch on.


It's not the content of what you're saying, it's the tone, at least in this thread. I agree with your assessment of the Eldar codex overall. It's the fact that you're talking like a misogynistic, arrogant douchebag that's getting you flak.

People listen much better to a voice of reason than an insulting tone. Most people won't care if you can explain why 42 is the answer if you implicitly claim that everyone you're talking to lacks the intelligence to understand your genius.


As for claiming that X list is good and Y list is bad, recall this was addressed towards the broader sweep of 40k neckbeards. So before you defend that, allow me some quotes. Specifically, do you happen to remember a couple years ago when Reecius (who's both an awesome guy and a very, very good 40k player) wrote an article about Footdar that kind of sparked off that little mini-internet sensation? Here's Stelek's response (paraphrased, because the article is old enough I couldn't find the original):


STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!S TUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!ST UPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STU PID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUP ID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPI D!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID !STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!STUPID! STUPID!STUPID!STUPID!

Yes. Very mature and open-minded. Especially since Footdar won several major tournaments within the next few months.

Here's the sort of thing AbusePuppy has consistantly said about Footdar in his articles:


No. No. No. **** you. No. Footdar is not strong

I'm glad I took the time out of my day to listen to that advice.

Compare to what Reece had to say in response to a comment in one of his articles:


To play Footdar you have to be able to look at the mission, the opponent, and the terrain and know how to win right away, then stick to your plan. It is not easy at all, but with practice, you'll find it to be a very flexible and powerful force. It has lots of tricks up its sleeve, too.

So, of the three, do I want to listen to the two massive tools, or the guy with a friendly, positive, and realistic attitude?

Now, is Footdar the best list EVAR? No. But it's fun, and you can win with it, and I know Reece is far from the only strong player who uses it, so why are so many neckbeards such massive douchebags about it? Even if the douchebags are correct and Reece, Fritz, pretty much the entire BOLS crew, and some other misc. bloggers are completely wrong, don't pretend that there are a lot of neckbeards handing out extremely biased advice. You may not be one of them (I don't know, I don't read your blog), but you should keep this all in mind. Attitude and tone matter.

[cebalrai]

Brain fart here maybe. If Eldrad is a lv 4 psyker is he limited to four powers per turn? What if his staff gives him more warp charges, can he cast more than four?

[DarkLink]

Yeah... actually, considering that a lot of the powers are ML2, and that keeping a warp charge for the Ghost Helm for Perils is useful, it's not a bad ability. It's just not that awesome.

[cebalrai]

Yeah... actually, considering that a lot of the powers are ML2, and that keeping a warp charge for the Ghost Helm for Perils is useful, it's not a bad ability. It's just not that awesome.


Warp charge 2 powers... There's the brain fart. Yeah it's a good ability.

[Power Klawz]

Really late to the party here but finally picked up my copy last night. Mind=blown that banshees don't have grenades, everything else pretty much panned out like the leaks have dictated. I'm going to be putting together what I'd consider to be a vanilla eldar army soon, autarch+farseer and several aspects backed up by guardians and jetbikes. Some of the more esoteric wargear items like the mantle of the laughing god are just screaming for neat conversions.

Still trying to wrap my head around how to use banshees, best I can think of is that power armor generally doesn't camp out in cover. Obviously if they can get the charge out in the open against anything marine-like its going to be bad news, if they charge through cover however it looks like mutually assured destruction is the only possibility.

Exarchs will be laughing at chaos champions so hard for the next few years, kind of feel bad for those guys.

I had originally thought that scorpions all got rending, which sounded ridiculously broken to me. Looks like the exarch can get it with chainsabres but everyone else is relegated to str4 ap6 with a bonus hit at I10. I think this really narrows them down to anti-horde like they've always been, but makes them better at it. If anything this gives Banshees their niche (although it doesn't allow them to perform it satisfactorily sadly.)

Charging into avengers seems like its going to be a rough prospect at best. The exarch can be kitted out to have a shot at killing basically everything that charges, 5+ invuln for the whole unit is real nice and a face full of shurikens for your troubles, all for around the same prices as your standard MEQ unit.

Really looking forward to jackass autarch with missile launcher and jetpack, backed up by a farseer and a flyer or two. Flyer with precision shot seems oddly amusing, when you really want that IG senior officer gone just level 4 str9 attacks at him right? heh.

[cebalrai]

I had originally thought that scorpions all got rending, which sounded ridiculously broken to me.

They do. With their shuriken pistols :)

[Sainhann]

This one of mine has a good amount of DE elements as well:



This gives me plenty of lances, 5 AV12 grav-tanks, 24 shots with Poison @ 36" that can be guided twice, and 9x total scoring Jetbikes.

I've been having a lot of success with this list. Quad-guns just die instantly to the guided Venoms and as long as my CHE doesn't fly in early, enemy fliers are no problem as well.

Thing is I would never ally with Dark Eldar. Now Imperial Guard so that I can get me some cheap snipers yes I could do that.

[Kirsten]

If the Eldar player is rushing flat-out a half-dozen Wave Serpents at you on turn one, getting a 4+ or 3+ cover save, how many will you happily glance to death that turn? You'd better say a whole lot, because if you don't then you'll end up getting massacred on turn 2 when they dump like eighty S6-S8 (often AP2, often lance) shots on you plus another 144 S4 rending shots from six dozen moody Guardians.

Just doing the math here, you'll have to roll 12+ on armor penetration six times to kill one Wave Serpent moving flat-out, 7.5 times if they also have cheap holo-fields. I'm just not thinking people are going to come equipped to do that.

yeah but how many people are going to field six serpents? plus where the hell are you getting eighty S6-8 shots? what size game are you playing here?

[Power Klawz]

yeah but how many people are going to field six serpents? plus where the hell are you getting eighty S6-8 shots? what size game are you playing here?

Maximum number of shots for 6 wave serpents is 42, all S6, no lance shots, 18 of which are bladestorming, 24 of which are ap6. This is 6 serpents configured with scatter lasers and shuriken cannons. Pretty scary for hordes and infantry in general, not really going to worry the front armor on any main battle tank.

Still, barebones with 6 serpents, all with shurkien cannons and scatter lasers carrying 12 guardians each comes to 1428 points, toss a couple of farseers in there and you've still got over 200 points to do something with. Hell make it a single farseer and take 2 crimson hunters, table guard armies LULS.

EDIT: Oh man I forgot you can fire off the serpent shield. Damn, that averages out to about 24 to 30 extra S7, cover ignoring, ap-, pinning shots. So yeah, I guess that 80 number isn't as far fetches as I thought originally.

Man that's kind of messed up. You're going to kill your way through like 50 MEQ a turn on average if you can get all that firepower on target.

SERPENT SPAM 1850 LIST

HQ

Naked farseer 100pts

TROOPS

11 Guardians 99pts

5x12 guardians 540

3x Starcannon+Shuricannon Wave serpents w/holofields 435
3x bright lance+ shuricannon wave serpents w/holofields 435

TOTAL: 1609

241 points left in an 1850 game. fill out those squads with heavy weapons and toss in a flyer. You'd have to remove one guardian from each squad to make room in the serpents, so you save 9 points, then add the cost of the weapon platforms. of course if you don't kill the entire opposing army the turn you disembark your T3 5+ guardians are going to die in droves.

A turn 2 massed shuriken massacre will probably table everything though when you think about it. If you can get everything to 12 inches.

Not counting the guns on the serpents or farseer assistance, your guardians will chew through about...

GEQ: 64 d00dz a turn
MEQ: 26 d00dz a turn
TEQ: 15 d00dz a turn

The serpents' serpent field things will take care of, on average (assuming d6+1 averages out to 4)

GEQ: 9
MEQ: 4
TEQ: 2

The shuriken cannons...

GEQ: 8
MEQ: 3
TEQ: 2

And the starcannons (assuming a modest 2 hits per shot)

GEQ: 10
MEQ: 10
TEQ: 6

and finally the bright lances, although it'd probably be better to just go all out starcannons

GEQ: 1
MEQ: 1
TEQ: 1

That's 92 dead guardsmen, 44 dead marines or 26 dead terminators a turn. Of course You'll probably lose at least 1, probably 2 serpents in the first turn, and have to footslog those guardians across no man's land, but even at 60% efficacy you're probably taking out half to 2/3 of the opposing army's infantry, depending on how mech heavy they are. Also if you take more starcannons and they enemy is grouped up well you could do considerably better, esepcially if each of the guardian squads also has a starcannon.

[chicop76]

yeah but how many people are going to field six serpents? plus where the hell are you getting eighty S6-8 shots? what size game are you playing here?

6 serpents hit around 700 points with 65 troop mininum is around 1.1 k. With max troop slots you can run 6 serpents rather easily. 6 serpents alone can shoot almost 90 times and can easily be all twin linked shots.

I say tone is key to getting your point across. If I go hey if you disagree with me you are stupid and my word is the law. Yeah.

[Kirsten]

yes but the question then is, can you move all six to where you want, have space to deploy the guardians in range etc? not really.

don't get me wrong, I thing it is a great vehicle, and the book is superb, but it is killable.

[cebalrai]

yes but the question then is, can you move all six to where you want, have space to deploy the guardians in range etc? not really.

don't get me wrong, I thing it is a great vehicle, and the book is superb, but it is killable.


The question is not whether an individual serpent is killable. Nobody is suggesting that any unit in 40k is unkillable.

But yeah I think I can get all six where I want and disembark them in a meaningful place in turn 2. Maybe 1-2 will struggle to find a place until turn 3 but their serpents will still fire everything anyway.

I plan on running a 6-serpent list with guardians in an 1850 tournament next weekend and will report back. I might even try to squeeze in seven.

[Kirsten]

absolutely, it will be a good list, and troublesome to deal with, but every army has a list that is tricky, and lists they will struggle against.

[Power Klawz]

Serpent starcannon spam will kill everything that isn't a flyer or AV 14 in about 2 turns. Then I guess you can just hide in cover and hope your single flyer can take out the land raiders and/or heldrakes, but even if they can't you still win because land raiders and heldrakes can't take objectives. Seems kind of brutal.

The thing that makes it viable is that crazy serpent shield. Combined with holofields you basically have indestructible transports that are also main battle tanks, and once you get all your dudes to within 12 inches you can just shoot your load and everything dies that turn. Go ahead and run triple drake lists and cron air against it, how many guardians can you kill a turn? assuming you're not tabled before your air force arrives.

[Kirsten]

not everything though, and if you are loading up on wave serpents and guardians as your army you are going to have to make sure nobody gets to attack you back. if you boost first turn to unload and shoot second, you have a turn of shooting to weather without response. if you go slower and shoot each turn, it will take you three turns to get to some parts of the board depending no deployment. against another mech force the S6 load outs could suffer, if you go for some lances you are drastically cutting the amount of shooting from the serpents. Basically I am agreeing with everybody that it is a tough list, but it wont do everything that people are talking about all at once, you can't get 80 S6-8 shots, you might get 80 S6 shots, but you will suffer against vehicles, some walkers could really ruin your day. with a reasonable of terrain on the table you can only get two or three serpents in one place, and the guardians may well get in one another's way. Anyone with a fast mover of their own, like land speeders etc. will shoot your rear armour and ignore the shield effects. necrons in ghost arks will mock the serpent spam for example, quantum shields have nothing to fear from S6, and gauss weapons will annihilate the vehicles in short order.

[Power Klawz]

The whole point of the list is to remove everything with legs by turn 3, after that it really doesn't matter as long as you've got enough bodies left to wave their arms around and go "Here I am!"

The serpent field things are Str 7 and there's plenty of room for heavy weapons platforms in the guardian squads. Worried about something camping out in a far flung corner that you won't be able to reach by turn 2? There's an app for that, its called star engines. For the low, low prices of 30 points you can outfit two of your serpents with these and basically drive from one end of the table to the other in turn 1, there is no escape.

Without tailoring your list to deal with it I really don't see how any standard list has a chance. Seems really broken.

How many BS5 ignores cover railcannon shots do you need to kill a single serpent on average? Well you've got around a 5% chance to kill it with each shot, and about a 65% chance to glance per shot fired, and its got 3 hull points. Those are your best odds from the front. You need at least strength 6 to touch it which is another key component to this, standard infantry are no threat so its not going down through sheer rate of fire.

On average a squad of 10 necron warriors rapid firing at 12 inches or less will take off 2 hull points from a serpent. That's a stationary serpent mind you, not likely. In the turn they turbo boost across the map they'll probably be at a 3+ cover save, making this less than 1 likely glance from a squad of 10 necron warriors. At 12 inches its all ready game over for the 'crons though.

If you've got all of your necrons chilling in transports it could be a problem though. But again in my estimations I took 3 bright lances and a flyer, enough to crack open at least 1 of those transports I'd say.

[Kirsten]

S7 wont negate quantum shielding. guardian platforms can't shoot until they disembark, star engines push prices up. Don't panic Mr Klawz, we can beat them ;)

[Power Klawz]

Its not impossible to beat of course, but if you play it right it seems almost impossible to beat. Especially if you're going up against all comers lists that aren't equipped to handle an alpha strike like that. I think the lynchpin of it all is how survivable serpents are now, you can almost guarantee you're going to reach the other side of the table at the bottom of turn 1, combined with how ridiculous shurikens are this could be a nasty build, and the relative simplicity of troop selections makes it harder to make egregious mistakes. The only protection is putting everything in metal boxes, which seems to have gotten less common in sixth.

[Kirsten]

I have always been a fan of metal boxes. an all serpent/guardian army does limit your close combat ability though, and the alpha strike relies on a lot of the enemy being on the board. once you are committed you are vulnerable. fliers, reserves etc will put a dampner on your day. dreadnoughts, soul grinders etc. will be problematic, any combat unit with a decent cover save. I don't disagree it can be a very tough army to face, but I don't think you have to be too specialised to take it on, just careful.

[Power Klawz]

You do have a point with melee oriented vehicles. An ork deff dredd would probably wreak untold havoc on that list.

Or rather a couple of them and some kanz. There's probably enough juice in the list to take out a single AV12 walker early.

[Kirsten]

and if you have deff dredds you get to stomp around the room waving your arms about making snappy pincer motions, so it is win win.

other people do that right...?

[Defenestratus]

and if you have deff dredds you get to stomp around the room waving your arms about making snappy pincer motions, so it is win win.

other people do that right...?

FWIW, in my 1500 pt game (only game so far) two wave serpents accounted for 2 razorbacks, 2 rhinos, a dreadnought and a land raider as casualties all while suffering only one glance between the two of them.

Again, FWIW.

Getting the serpents in combat is how to kill them definitely but until then, holy goodness are they the bee's knee's.

[Kirsten]

FWIW?
I had my first game against the new eldar today and I killed the opposing wave serpent turn one with three glancing hits.

[chicop76]

The serpent spam is good over all. You can kite all day long or you can rush. Rushing with just guardians is not that effective unless you are facing Tau. The major problem with serpent rush is that 10 squads of melta bombers, or 10 krakk grenages on marines can give it a bad day. The only thing that you don't want to park next to is a melee unit that can rip your armour up.

Daemons for example would be that army you sit back and shoot. Unless it's just a bunch of pink horrors.

Wreaking presents problems, because now that unit that was inside can assault next turn. Blowing up the serpent helps since it hurts the guys inside and doesn't leave line of sight blocking terrain on the table.

The thing is each serpent has a 70" range and can easily kite and can move across the board. Once ary x get close enough you can fly over him and fire at the other corner of the board.

[rle68]

FWIW?
I had my first game against the new eldar today and I killed the opposing wave serpent turn one with three glancing hits.

your opp must have rolled really crappy or you got first turn and he got no cover save

[rle68]

another thought is why all guardians?

as you pointed out 6 serpent 700 ish points why not use some wraithguard and kill that LR def dread anything armor wise at the same time?

keep some guardians of course but WG can now eat what the guardians cant

[Learn2Eel]

You do have a point with melee oriented vehicles. An ork deff dredd would probably wreak untold havoc on that list.

Or rather a couple of them and some kanz. There's probably enough juice in the list to take out a single AV12 walker early.

Good luck catching a Fast Skimmer with a Walker. The only melee models that can reliably do it are flying monstrous creatures, and they have to land to charge and will then be shot to death by all the other Wave Serpents and the unit leaping out of the one Wave Serpent they just caught. Wave Serpent spam is so brutal not just because of its durability, flexibility and firepower, but because of its mobility. It can basically avoid anything that really threatens it.
The melee walker best suited to chasing Wave Serpents would (perhaps ironically) be the Maulerfiend, with its average charge length of about 20" that ignores terrain. Of course, a smart Eldar player would simply neutralize them early on.

[Power Klawz]

Good luck catching a Fast Skimmer with a Walker. The only melee models that can reliably do it are flying monstrous creatures, and they have to land to charge and will then be shot to death by all the other Wave Serpents and the unit leaping out of the one Wave Serpent they just caught. Wave Serpent spam is so brutal not just because of its durability, flexibility and firepower, but because of its mobility. It can basically avoid anything that really threatens it.
The melee walker best suited to chasing Wave Serpents would (perhaps ironically) be the Maulerfiend, with its average charge length of about 20" that ignores terrain. Of course, a smart Eldar player would simply neutralize them early on.

Well I was thinking more about how badly a bunch of guardians would get stomped by CQC walkers, but yeah if you just sat outside charge range and shot up the walkers for a few turns you'd probably do all right, but the whole time that you're not in 12 inch murder range for those catapults the longer your enemy has to kill your transports, and the more likely you are to wind up with 70 guardians doing wind sprints in no man's land trying really hard not to end up as brightly colored confetti.

[Shas'O Alohcry]

If I turned up and had to play the Serpent spam list I would look at it, look at the opponent, sigh, roll some dice, the. Say "good game" walk off and hope I never saw them again. It sounds really boring to play with or against.

[Kirsten]

another thought is why all guardians?

as you pointed out 6 serpent 700 ish points why not use some wraithguard and kill that LR def dread anything armor wise at the same time?

keep some guardians of course but WG can now eat what the guardians cant

but then wraith guard are a massive point investment compared to guardians and really cut into the army.


Good luck catching a Fast Skimmer with a Walker. The only melee models that can reliably do it are flying monstrous creatures, and they have to land to charge and will then be shot to death by all the other Wave Serpents and the unit leaping out of the one Wave Serpent they just caught. Wave Serpent spam is so brutal not just because of its durability, flexibility and firepower, but because of its mobility. It can basically avoid anything that really threatens it.
The melee walker best suited to chasing Wave Serpents would (perhaps ironically) be the Maulerfiend, with its average charge length of about 20" that ignores terrain. Of course, a smart Eldar player would simply neutralize them early on.

you don't need to chase them, they will have to come to you at some point. if they are just going to zoom about the board all game then you have nothing to worry about. at some point they need to deploy their units, and that means on an objective, or at your units. If I played against a serpent army that spent the whole game kiting about then I would have no problems whatsoever.

People are really over reacting, the serpent is tough but it is not all singing all dancing, people are acting as though in your average game size it is going to zoom all over the board, still fire a huge number of S6 anti troop and S8 anti armour, and drop off troops all at the same time. If you have a balanced army of infantry, vehicles, maybe a flier, a dread etc. then the eldar player will need a flexible range of weapons and units inside in turn to deal with it, and that means cutting down on what each transport and unit can deal with, limiting where it goes etc. Sure a serpent full of wraith guard will destroy a land raider, but they are also similar points to one, you are not going to have six wave serpents full of troops if a few of them are full of aspects, wraithguard etc.

[cebalrai]

but then wraith guard are a massive point investment compared to guardians and really cut into the army.



you don't need to chase them, they will have to come to you at some point. if they are just going to zoom about the board all game then you have nothing to worry about. at some point they need to deploy their units, and that means on an objective, or at your units. If I played against a serpent army that spent the whole game kiting about then I would have no problems whatsoever.

People are really over reacting, the serpent is tough but it is not all singing all dancing, people are acting as though in your average game size it is going to zoom all over the board, still fire a huge number of S6 anti troop and S8 anti armour, and drop off troops all at the same time. If you have a balanced army of infantry, vehicles, maybe a flier, a dread etc. then the eldar player will need a flexible range of weapons and units inside in turn to deal with it, and that means cutting down on what each transport and unit can deal with, limiting where it goes etc. Sure a serpent full of wraith guard will destroy a land raider, but they are also similar points to one, you are not going to have six wave serpents full of troops if a few of them are full of aspects, wraithguard etc.


Kirsten and Klaw, you seem to be really unaware of how much firepower Serpents put out. It's just ridiculous. And on the defensive side, I've played four games with the new codex now and in each game my opponent has to pour a huge amount of his firepower into a single serpent just to put a glance or two on it. And they're just wonderful at killing light and medium vehicles. Superb even.

They're superb at staying alive.

And superb at killing infantry.

And superb at killing monstrous creatures.

And superb at killing quad guns.

And superb at tank shocking.

And superb at playing objectives.


And walker CC attacks to counter them? Hmm, let me think for a while and get back to you on whether or not there's a way that fast skimmers can avoid an assault from a walker.....

Wave Serpents aren't just the best units in our Codex, they're in the running for best unit in all of 40k.

[Kirsten]

yes they can do all those things, but not guaranteed, not in one turn, not while delivering infantry, and not for free :rolleyes:
as I said above, if you want to avoid assault, that means staying away from the enemy and/or objectives. by all, means, crack on.

[cebalrai]

yes they can do all those things, but not guaranteed, not in one turn, not while delivering infantry, and not for free :rolleyes:
as I said above, if you want to avoid assault, that means staying away from the enemy and/or objectives. by all, means, crack on.


You're making absurd arguments against them though. They're not free or 100% guaranteed? Seriously?

Every game I've played so far I've avoided assault by simply not moving into assault range with things I know will kill a Serpent like that. Instead I just ravage whatever is in the area and move in next turn. The argument that Wave Serpents have to stay away from enemies and objectives is nonsense. You know what I do with just cheap Guardians and Scatter/Scannons?

- Move up 6"
- Disembark
- Strip stealth and shrouded if need be
- Guardians fire 22 rending shots and two S6 AP2 Starcannon shots
- The Serpent fires four twin-linked S6 Scatterlaser shots, laser locks for three S6 TL rending shots, then I project the shield for 2-7 twin-linked S7 shots that ignore cover

That's all from one relatively cheap unit in just one round, 8 MEQ dead, a bunch of silly walkers dead, etc. And I now have a scoring unit on an objective that you just said I couldn't approach, possibly with shrouded.

And what if there is more than one unit there? Well I have FIVE more Serpents ready to help out, plus whatever else I squeezed into the list.

[Kirsten]

You're making absurd arguments against them though. They're not free or 100% guaranteed? Seriously?

I think you will find both of those are in fact true. where are you getting the twin linked scatter laser from? I understood it made the other gun twin linked.
silly walkers? except for the AV13 walkers of course, that you wont hurt. or any other AV13 vehicle. you might get a glance with the shield thing, but hardly reliable. relatively cheap? how cheap are we talking here though? what is stripping stealth and shrouded? what is giving shrouded? are you using warlocks? more points, need to cast. eight marines dead killed by a unit combo that costs more than they do. what if the marines are in cover guarding the objective?
sorry but you are talking nonsense. do excuse me if I don't throw my arms in the air, gnash my teeth, and whine about how broken something is :rolleyes:

[eldargal]

Serpents are great but they aren't broken and they aren't little grav tank gods that cast all before them with impunity.

[Kirsten]

Serpents are great but they aren't broken and they aren't little grav tank gods that cast all before them with impunity.

my sentiment exactly

[chorde]

yep they are awesome, but you don't need them, tabled demons turn 4 today with only 2, in a 2k battle

nightspinner, vauls support (shadow weaver) and fuegan/dragons did really well....even wasted 160 points on wraithfighter?

I am looking forward to my 1st game against tau, only thing I don't like about the new codex is I play ulthwe and am feeling the psykers may have been nerfed, 6 rolls on the runes of battle and didnt get protect/jinx, eldrad had 4 roles on battle fate and didnt get fortune or doom. Obviously this won't happen every game but spending 400 odd pts on psykers and not getting the spells you want means ulthwe fluff list will not be as competitive as the other craftworlds.

Still will play it though, still expect to see a lot of armies tabled before the game ends aswell.

[chicop76]

The 8 marine killing combo cost about the same as the marines, unless you take marines without upgrades.

Armour 13 walkers. Not to many people even play with walkers anymore. Space marines and blood angels are the only armies that have that 2 out of 16 armies. What is the side armour of them. 12 right? The mobilty of the serpent gives easy side armour shots.

Yes you paying into warlocks, but that's like saying that Tau is sucky cause they have to pay extra for markerlights. Nids suck cause the pay extra for endurance which is random, but they can have 20 rolls to get it.

The point is how many armies can deal against ir reliably while at the same time being an all comers list. Like 2-3 armies including Eldar itself. That's what make the serpent eaisly on of the better units in the game. For 150 points is does a lot. They are easily on par with necron barges.

My solution is t assault with my riptide which can keep up a good pace with them, if not they should be able to get rear shooting.

Another thing you are over looking is you can have twin lance strength 8 shots on the tank as well. It think two of those whould ruin armor 12+ from range.


If you ran a 9 serpent list for example you would make 3 with starcannons, 3 with lances, and 3 with scatter lasers which will cover all your basic elements you need.

No one saying they are broken. They do have counter like rear shots and melee troops. With just a +5 cover save you have to cause 4 glances to glance kill or 6 glances on a 4+, heaven forbid if you take a warlock each to give them shrouding. The fact they are armour 12 means you need strength 6 or higher to glance in the first place. Strength 8 or higher reliably can hurt serpents.

Here is an example of 3 high yield missle pod sides shooting at a serpent on it's own merit w/o marker lights. 9 shots hit, need 5s and 6s to glance. +5 cover save and +2 pen to glance means only 2 hull points lost. So a 200 point unit at this point can't kill a 150 point unit. If you add 44 points for 4 marker marker lights to strip a cover save than it will be wreacked, but you are pouring in double the serpents points to just glance death the serpent. The fire dragons are where they need to be with line of sight blocking terrain. They can move, shoot, and run into the dangerous +5 cover save terrain nicely put there, or run shoot to get the range they need to kill the broadsides that killed the serpent.

In other words unless youu can deny cover and the person rolls a one on pen hits the serpnet can take a huge amount of ranged hits before being glanced to death, and that's on top of shooting the amount of shots in can dish out as well, and being a transport.

@Chorde can you mention what powers and unit the daemon player had. Anyone can table any army. For all we know he could had all flamers and pink horrors. Just saying I tabled grey knights turn 1 before, but he was playing cortez and a bunch of inquestion guardsmen with 4 monkies per squad.

It's the fact the serpents can do what they do at such low point cost is the point.

[rle68]

but then wraith guard are a massive point investment compared to guardians and really cut into the army.



160 points to 110 is a massive points investment?

guess we have two different meaning of the term massive

and while your guardians can kill troops and alot fo stuff unarmored .. the WG can kill anything

4 squads of guardians and 2 WG seem to me to be a nice balance especially in the 1850 range

[Kirsten]

The 8 marine killing combo cost about the same as the marines, unless you take marines without upgrades.

Yes you paying into warlocks, but that's like saying that Tau is sucky cause they have to pay extra for markerlights. Nids suck cause the pay extra for endurance which is random, but they can have 20 rolls to get it.

The point is how many armies can deal against ir reliably while at the same time being an all comers list. Like 2-3 armies including Eldar itself. That's what make the serpent eaisly on of the better units in the game. For 150 points is does a lot. They are easily on par with necron barges.

Another thing you are over looking is you can have twin lance strength 8 shots on the tank as well. It think two of those whould ruin armor 12+ from range.


a squad of guardians with a platform in a wave serpent is the same as 8 marines?

Walkers: furioso, soul grinder, defiler, mauler fiend, forge fiend will all comfortably eat a wave serpent and unit, dreadnoguhts and deff dredds stand a good chance of surviving the described turn of S6 shooting and charging the guardians.

the point about adding warlocks is that it ups the points, therefore you have less stuff.

I am not missing the point about the bright lances, on the contrary, that is the whole point of what I am saying. one of the original comments is that the serpent army can put out 80 S6-8 shots. it can put out 80 S6 shots, which wont hurt most vehicles, or you can take lances and drastically reduce the number of shots you put out. you can't have both. the problem here is that you are all describing extreme situations and the wave serpent and a unit inside simply cannot do everything that you are describing all in one go, that is exactly what I am trying to get through to you all. sure you can have star engines, and crystalline targetting matrix, a bright land and a scatter laser, a unit inside with a warlock. what does that come to in total? how many multiples of that can you get in one army?.

rle you are talking about two very different units, one half the size of the other, so yes, it makes a big difference. the 2,000 point army that was described to me on this thread was six serpents with guardian squads in, and a couple of farseers. if you swap two guardian units for wraith guard then you are dropping a farseer, the army changes. with warlocks in squads then you might be looking at five wave serpents instead of six, with something else instead.

the very simple point is that a wave serpent is incapable of doing everything that people are panicking about them doing. yes it can shoot tanks, or it can shoot infantry, it wont wipe out both together. it can go very fast, but it can't shoot or deploy its' troops. it can avoid assault, but then you have a transport and a unit that is avoiding the enemy.

[chicop76]

a squad of guardians with a platform in a wave serpent is the same as 8 marines?

Walkers: furioso, soul grinder, defiler, mauler fiend, forge fiend will all comfortably eat a wave serpent and unit, dreadnoguhts and deff dredds stand a good chance of surviving the described turn of S6 shooting and charging the guardians.

the point about adding warlocks is that it ups the points, therefore you have less stuff.

I am not missing the point about the bright lances, on the contrary, that is the whole point of what I am saying. one of the original comments is that the serpent army can put out 80 S6-8 shots. it can put out 80 S6 shots, which wont hurt most vehicles, or you can take lances and drastically reduce the number of shots you put out. you can't have both. the problem here is that you are all describing extreme situations and the wave serpent and a unit inside simply cannot do everything that you are describing all in one go, that is exactly what I am trying to get through to you all. sure you can have star engines, and crystalline targetting matrix, a bright land and a scatter laser, a unit inside with a warlock. what does that come to in total? how many multiples of that can you get in one army?.

rle you are talking about two very different units, one half the size of the other, so yes, it makes a big difference. the 2,000 point army that was described to me on this thread was six serpents with guardian squads in, and a couple of farseers. if you swap two guardian units for wraith guard then you are dropping a farseer, the army changes. with warlocks in squads then you might be looking at five wave serpents instead of six, with something else instead.

the very simple point is that a wave serpent is incapable of doing everything that people are panicking about them doing. yes it can shoot tanks, or it can shoot infantry, it wont wipe out both together. it can go very fast, but it can't shoot or deploy its' troops. it can avoid assault, but then you have a transport and a unit that is avoiding the enemy.

Ummm how much is standrad marines with up grades. 8 marines lost cost more than the serpent.

3 serpent's alone is dishing out roughly 40 shots. Throw in fire dragons etc you have your grounds covered. Ok with a lance the shots drop from 14 to 11. Man that's a huge reduction of firing out put.

With staying base the serpent still can dish out 12 shots. 10 of which gives trouble to armour 12 and lower.

You said armour 13 and now you including armour 12 walkers. I forgot about grinders with side armour 13. All outher walkers you can get side shots.

The point is if you do come across the rare walker spam you still can kite the other side. Unless they have a amour 13 walker that can fly with psychic power it will be hard to keep up with a basic serpent.

The only 13 walker's I seen played in 6th is th grinder since it has skyfire and a few furiosos. Other than that it's like 1 or 2 you see in both armies.

Armour 12 walkers that I see played are the double strength 8 rifle dreadnoughts from grey knights.

That's it.

[rle68]

Kristen

rle you are talking about two very different units, one half the size of the other

yes a 10 man guardian squad vs a 5 man wraithguard squad... im not so focused on the 2k army im simply stating that an all guardian force is weaker then one with WG in it

the WG is worth the extra 50 points to do what the guardians can not do.. and if you think 50 points or even a 100 you cant find without losing the farseer well.. ill leave that be

[HERO]

It's not the content of what you're saying, it's the tone, at least in this thread. I agree with your assessment of the Eldar codex overall. It's the fact that you're talking like a misogynistic, arrogant douchebag that's getting you flak.

People listen much better to a voice of reason than an insulting tone. Most people won't care if you can explain why 42 is the answer if you implicitly claim that everyone you're talking to lacks the intelligence to understand your genius.


As for claiming that X list is good and Y list is bad, recall this was addressed towards the broader sweep of 40k neckbeards. So before you defend that, allow me some quotes. Specifically, do you happen to remember a couple years ago when Reecius (who's both an awesome guy and a very, very good 40k player) wrote an article about Footdar that kind of sparked off that little mini-internet sensation? Here's Stelek's response (paraphrased, because the article is old enough I couldn't find the original)

Comparing me to Strelek or Abusepuppy?
Man, if my head ever exploded and I outright raged like a baboon, then maybe. I have supported every single one of my posts with logic and reason.

Sure, the one might not be the greatest, but when people are visibly not reading and outright disregarding hard facts and comparisons, that's when I get really pissed off. There's no point typing at that point.

Back on the matter at hand. Do I think Eldar is a meh place? Let's look at things in a more serious light. Let me know if you fellas agree?

So here's what I'm thinking:

Competitive bucket:
Farseers - Great. Should outright be in every list, or 90% of lists not focusing on specifically designed lists such as Wraith armies. Double Guide is just fantastic and vastly improves the shooting output of your army. When you need every shot to count, do not settle for anything less. Plus you get the awesomeness that is Divination: Giving you possible 4+ ward on Wraithknights, Scrier's Gaze, and the ability to combine Misfortune with Doom.

Avatar of Khaine - Works in the right list, mostly footslogging ones holding and offering target saturation. If you're running plenty of big units, Wraithguard, WK and WLs, then the Avatar is just another piece of the puzzle. These guys shouldn't be too expensive with Fast Shot and possibly +1S for S7.

Eldrad - Works in the above said army and will continue to do so. Footslog is in a pretty good place right now minus the odd-ball AP2 template weapons. This is why I generally feel that footslog outright might not be the best, but mech + foot will be stronger. You are better able to conserve units that matter (scoring) while fielding units that someone like Tau can't really deal with (Wraithknights). He's a footslogging champ because you get a very efficient Farseer that comes with all the bells and whistles plus a few more.

Autarch - Good. His Strategy clause and reserve manipulation is the reason why he deserves to be in lists. When he is in a list, he needs to be cheap. Either hopping around with Warp Spiders, hanging around with Singing Spears, or tagging along with Jetbikes. Keep him cheap, for real.

Spiritseer - Better than Warlocks IMO, better leadership, larger array of spells, can join any unit, just an overall stronger pick than the Warlock. Wraithsight is just nice to have but the real boon is taking T6 3+ units as troops.

Warlock - Works in the right list, but is limited in where he can truly perform. His lack of spells worries me, his Ld.8 as well, but default Conceal gives him a spot in weapon teams, Guardians, Jetbikes, so if you're running those then he can see a spot. Otherwise, I prefer the stronger option of a Farseer with double guide, or the flexibility of a Spiritseer.

Dire Avengers - A lot of people don't like these guys because of their inability to combo with psychic abilities when they get out of a transport. However, Misfortune and Doom still exist and that's always something that benefits Dire Avengers a lot because of how Bladestorm works. I think they're good, either in 5s or 10s in a Serpent because of their base Ld.9 and plentiful shots. The Exarch options and the lack of previous Bladestorm is a shame, but I think 5/10 in a WS is the best way forward. If you want a unit that can actually do damage from a distance, I would look into these guys.

Windrider Jetbikes - Just amazing value. The best offensive troops in the army because of their speed, flexibility, and reach. The reach part is huge because it allows them to take points and contest areas last minute. We're talking about the fastest moving scoring in the game here, and makes unreachable points a possibility in the last few minutes of every game. The price too, is just ridiculous. As ridiculous as the fact we've been using the same models for like 12 years.

Rangers - Fantastic points value as well, simply because they can take a point from god knows where and stay there until they no longer matter. Shoot, run away behind somewhere that BLoS and stay there until they're safe. They're one of the best units that draws fire and are incredibly hard to remove when GtG even in simple area terrain. They're cheap, offers BS4 snipers, naturally pins, and will benefit any player who knows how to correctly place objectives. Both Jetbikes and Rangers are useful for keeping your scoring, it's really dependent on the general. Place an objective in a place that allows the Rangers to slip behind LoS, or place a far flung objective on his slower flank so only your rocket bikes can reach it.

Wave Serpent - I don't think I need to argue the effectiveness of this thing. Holofields and Shuriken Cannon upgrade, Scatter Lasers and you've got yourself one of the best MBT/transports in the game. The effectiveness of Serpent Shield's shooting in combination with Laser Lock also makes sure more fragile units that depend on cover saves just outright eat it. Enemy DE vehicles come in mind immediately.

Fire Dragons - Expensive, but still fill in the same role of slagging tanks.

Wraithguard - Flamers or S10 AP2 shots are both welcome. Great in some lists because they score, good otherwise because they just shoot and burn things to death.

Swooping Hawks - Take 6, drop behind LoS, drop S4 AP4 Large Blast Ignore cover somewhere. Good, cheap, repeatable, and great way to clear out weaker infantry (T3, crap armor) trying to hug cover and score points. Please take them MSU and understand you should be bombing with Grenade Packs as much as possible.

Warp Spiders - Amazing amount of damage can come from these guys, just fantastic. Great on reserves, combos with all of your psychic powers, great mobility, great Exarch powers, great weapon choices. My go-to aspect for doing ranged damage. Multiple S6 shots basically threatens 90% of the game and it's one of the reasons why these guys are amazing.

Singing Spears - Actually not bad. Does good damage, Skilled Rider stacks with Jink, solid damage:price ratio, good for escorting the Exarch as well since he can buy a Power Lance. Not the best, but useful in certain lists.

Crimson Hunter - He's been solid for me simply because I hug the board edge and kill the Quad-Gun with Venoms before anything happens. He WILL die if he comes on before another enemy flier though. Since he has virtually no defensive capability, there's just nothing that can stop him from dying to enemy flyers. If you can take a Quad-Gun and Intercept his flyer, or have an Autarch to preserve your reserve roll, or Scrier's Gaze, realistically, that's the only way you can keep him alive from other flyers. Also, don't be afraid to run off the board and give his flyer the Alpha strike so you can shoot his *** down. Just remember you can't do this the same turn you fly in (has to be next turn). Example would be: You come in first, he doesn't come in. Next round you fly off the board so you can counter his flyer the following turn.

Vyper - BS4 and solid shooting is always good, especially on something armored, can go the distance and benefit from Jink. However, there are other options that do the same thing like the War Walker.

Vaul's Wrath Support Battery - Solid. A lot of cheap artillery units and even 3x D-Cannons can mess a lot of things up. If you're taking a Quad-Gun line with Aegis, these are one of the best units to look at. For 90 points, you can put down a lot of small blasts that do great damage in the form of the Shadow Weaver setup. Due to artillery rules, they can be T7 behind solid cover and that can be a total nightmare to remove.

Fire Prism - The best heavy support choice IMO. Wide range of firing options, strong options in the form of Holofields, Spirit Stones and the S9 AP1 Lance.

Night Spinner - Great tank, can fully utilize the Crystal Targeting Matrix and comes with two different options to deal damage. S8 large blasts vs. vehicles or a S8 torrent spray with AP1 on units is a great way to do damage.

War Warlkers - Like Vypers, but sacs mobility for 5+ ward and Battle Focus. I see them fulfilling the same roles, so it's either one or the other for me.

Wraithknight - I would of liked to see a better Heavy Wraithcannon, but for 240 points base and the ability to stare missile Tau down, I have no problem with this. One of his biggest strengths is his application to the metagame. Missile Tau just craps on a lot of lists right now and the Wraithknight single-handily tears the entire concept. Wounds on 5s, saves on 3s, beats all Tau options in melee because of his superior stats. He even offers the "threat" of ID vs. Riptides which, however unlikely, can still happen. Just don't get in combat with any Nemesis Dreadknights: They ID you with their Doomfists that are S10, and ignore your primary method of defense of T8 3+ AS.

Chillin in the Webway for now:
Dark Reapers - Overshadowed, not very durable.
Falcon - Better options in Heavy.
Wraithlord - Cheap, but doesn't apply to every army. He's very list and theme dependent.
Hemlock Wraithfighter - Not good enough to justify 185 points. Limited to gimmick strats and poor overall battlefield application.
Wraithblades - We are a shooting army.
Harlequins - Now requires a test, and forced to footslog in a shooty edition.
Striking Scorpions - Shooty edition, they're great otherwise, but I'd rather bring more shooting solutions. Warp Spiders are outright better in every way.
Howling Banshees - I'm sad about this because it's one of my favorite aspects, but the truth is they're trash.
Guardians - Better scoring options; Avengers, Jetbikes, Rangers.
All the Phoenix Lords - Overpriced for what they do. The only one worth looking at realistically is Fuegan and Karandras.
Prince Yriel - Re-roll that 6 on the S6 ID? Very sad. However, you might be able to take take him in a suicide run to kill marines? Sounds like a waste of Eldar life to me.
Illic Nightspear - Gimmick, doesn't apply too much damage wise and enables an overpriced option to take Pathfinders over Rangers who can just GtG already. As of right now, his only application is the beardy sneaky 10 Wraithguard in your backline Infiltrate, and we might see an FAQ for this soon.

[lattd]

I would disagree with about half the chilling in the web way list, scorpions are great viable unit that can get deep into your opponents field early on and remove units from cover.
Reapers are a great anti meq unit and the buff in size is lovely rather flexible unit.
Wraithlord is still an incredibly tough unit provides a nice long range platform.
Wraith blades are a tough and very good blocker unit.
Guardians are probably the best objective holding units in the game. They don't need to have longe range shooting in their basic guns that's the platform their guns are there for deterring an assault onto the objective.

[HERO]

I would disagree with about half the chilling in the web way list, scorpions are great viable unit that can get deep into your opponents field early on and remove units from cover.
Reapers are a great anti meq unit and the buff in size is lovely rather flexible unit.
Wraithlord is still an incredibly tough unit provides a nice long range platform.
Wraith blades are a tough and very good blocker unit.
Guardians are probably the best objective holding units in the game. They don't need to have longe range shooting in their basic guns that's the platform their guns are there for deterring an assault onto the objective.

Guardians are the best objective unit holding units in the game? Compared to the the offensive objective taking skills of the Windrunner and defensive of the Ranger for the price? I don't think so.

Reapers? How many other anti-MEQ units do we have? An example would be S5 AP3 large blast Fire Prism with Holofields and Spirit Stones for 150 from 60" vs. Reapers. Mobility, durability, versatility, vs. static, easily killed, limited Reapers.

Wraithlords fight for Wraithknights and other units for a spot in lists. Remember you only have 3 Heavy slots. It depends on the list overall.

Wraithblades are just not good compared to other units for the points. You don't need blocker units, you need to utilize on either hit and run or concentrating overwhelming firepower. Eldar excel at both of these, and the idea of a slow, durable, MELEE unit is the antithesis to their playstyle. They might see play in Wraithlists, but let's be honest: When would you ever take these over other choices in other lists?

All the melee units for me are in the non-viable area. There's just too many good ways to load up wounds on a T3 unit, especially with the metagame shifting over to more mans, plentiful but mediocre shooting, and Tau entering the tournament scene.

You have to understand that the above is a competitive unit bucket. I simply do not care if your Scorpions see play vs. 1-2 friends using the same armies, what I wrote does not stem from that playing environment at all.

[lattd]

So in an army that focuses on dictating the battlefield and where your opponent can and can't move or target your saying a blocker unit is not a good option?

[Deadlift]

Hero, what's your opinion on running a Wraith / Ghost army ? I know its not going to be uber competative but using the Iyanden supplement too, what do you think ? I'm mostly looking at MEQ and obviously range is an issue with guardians. But in wave serpants that's kind of taking care of I think. I don't want a list or anything but I would appreciate your thoughts.

[HERO]

So in an army that focuses on dictating the battlefield and where your opponent can and can't move or target your saying a blocker unit is not a good option?

A melee-based unit that walks around the battlefield does not dictate the battlefield. Wraithguard, because they can put out S10 AP2 shots while lumbering forward with a threat range of 18" (or dropped off from a WS) adds infinitely more threat and battlefield application. There's no point chopping someone to death when you can shoot them to death from range. It's safer to shoot: The more damage you can do from range vs. lower risks of return damage is how Dark Eldar/Eldar wins its battles. You might ask me: Why do people play Footdar then? Well, Footdar also shoots a good amount. Melee Wraith units offer zero shooting and are literally doing nothing for the first 3 turns.

Plus, if you really do melee for whatever reasons, there are better options for it.


Hero, what's your opinion on running a Wraith / Ghost army ? I know its not going to be uber competative but using the Iyanden supplement too, what do you think ? I'm mostly looking at MEQ and obviously range is an issue with guardians. But in wave serpants that's kind of taking care of I think. I don't want a list or anything but I would appreciate your thoughts.

I think it's do-able. Most castle, scoring lists running on foot can do really well as long as you capitalize on shooting. The fact that the entire wraith force gains Battle Focus is quite amazing. It loses the Conceal bonus, but with greater chances of +1AS and more volatile shooting, I think you can make a good list. Like I said previously, I think the best kind of lists will be shooty, and if you're running a Wraith-theme, it pays to have a mix between mech and Wraith. A unit of WWs to go with 2 WKs, WG with anti-horde mechanics with D-Scythes in Serpents, a large WG core and some bikes/rangers to capture far and away should be considered as well.

Eldrad
Spirit Seer
10x wraithguard
5x WG with D-Scythes in WS
2x WK
3x WW with Scatters or a Fire Prism/Night Spinner
CH Ex for AA
2x 5x Rangers or 3x Bikes for back-cap/range

I know you didn't ask for a list, but something like this is what I mean ^ Also, instead of Eldrad, you could run with a WK Suncannon/SF/Scatter Warlord. Having the Warlord on a huge T8 6W model is nothing short of amazing.

You definitely want effective shooting and a mix of high-threat targets to round out that beefy T6 core.

[Deadlift]

Thanks, I really do prefer a shoots list myself too, my marines have always primarily been castles up and shooty which has served me well. I like your inclusion of the WK. I really like the model and despite reading so many misgivings about its stats elsewhere I struggle to see it as a weak alternative to other heavy support, especially as I could also take one as my Warlord. I'm thinking Scatter lasers on them for the laser lock. It's a neat rule and hard to resist really.

[HERO]

Thanks, I really do prefer a shoots list myself too, my marines have always primarily been castles up and shooty which has served me well. I like your inclusion of the WK. I really like the model and despite reading so many misgivings about its stats elsewhere I struggle to see it as a weak alternative to other heavy support, especially as I could also take one as my Warlord. I'm thinking Scatter lasers on them for the laser lock. It's a neat rule and hard to resist really.

Another thing about Wraith armies: I think their reliability is not as high as the last book. When we had 1-warp charge Fortune always as a psychic power and re-rollable 5+ perma Conceal via Warlocks and Enhance, Wraithguard were a lot more reliable.

Just keep the fickle nature of this change in mind when building your Wraith lists.

[Deadlift]

There also seems to be much more AP 2 and 3 in 6th.

[cebalrai]

I think you will find both of those are in fact true. where are you getting the twin linked scatter laser from? I understood it made the other gun twin linked.
silly walkers? except for the AV13 walkers of course, that you wont hurt. or any other AV13 vehicle. you might get a glance with the shield thing, but hardly reliable. relatively cheap? how cheap are we talking here though? what is stripping stealth and shrouded? what is giving shrouded? are you using warlocks? more points, need to cast. eight marines dead killed by a unit combo that costs more than they do. what if the marines are in cover guarding the objective?
sorry but you are talking nonsense. do excuse me if I don't throw my arms in the air, gnash my teeth, and whine about how broken something is :rolleyes:


Kirsten, the only way for Wave Serpents to get scatter lasers is by taking a twin-linked one on the turret. Then when that one hits it twin-links the S6 rending shuriken cannon and serpent field projector.

And Serpents with TL Bright lances can very easily threaten AV13 vehicles, especially since it's easy for them to get hits on side/rear armor. Warlocks can strip stealth and shrouded and also flip their power to provide shrouded to their Guardians. I did it last night, disembarked - decimated a Sternguard squad, and then took a 2+ cover save when I went to ground in cover.

Your arguments have all been silly. "It's not 100% guaranteed!" "It costs more than free!" "You're just whining!"

The fact that you're completely unaware that Wave Serpents don't have a TL turret gun tells me that you don't even know what a serpent is.

[HERO]

There also seems to be much more AP 2 and 3 in 6th.

Yup, and the fact as long as Tau exists, they hold the keys to both Ignore cover and S8 AP2 large blasts.

On a better note, I've been messing around with 2 builds as of late:


1850
18 KP

HQ:
Farseer (JB, Spear, Mantle) = 160*
Succubus (VB, Haywire) = 75

TROOP:
5x Warriors (Raider NS, Blaster) = 130
5x Warriors (Venom NS/SC, Blaster) = 135
5x Warriors (Venom NS/SC, Blaster) = 135
10x Warriors (Raider NS/SR, Blaster, SC) = 195
10x Warriors (Raider NS/SR, Blaster, SC) = 195
5x Rangers = 60*

FA:
Crimson Hunter Exarch = 180*

HEAVY:
Ravager (NS) = 115
Ravager (NS) = 115
Ravager (NS) = 115
Wraithknight = 240

DE Primary/Eldar secondary:
Opening volley gives me - 24 poison shots @ 36", 12 Dark Lances, 2 S10 AP2 Wraithcannons.
Reliant damage is primarily poison based with the Farseer acting as babysitter/support.
This gives me a larger impact opening game, while the strength of the army steadily diminishes as more and more units die.


1849
17 kp

HQ:
Farseer (JB, Spear, Mantle) = 160
Succubus (VB) = 70*

TROOPS:
5x Dire Avengers (WS/Holo/Scatter/SC) = 210
5x Dire Avengers (WS/Holo/Scatter/SC) = 210
5x Warriors (Venom NS/SC, Blaster) = 135*
5x Jetbikes (SC) = 95
4x Jetbikes (SC) = 78

ELITE:
3x Trueborn (Venom NS/SC, 3x Blasters) = 156*

FA:
Crimson Hunter Exarch = 180

HEAVY:
Fire Prism (Holofields, SS) = 150
Fire Prism (Holofields, SS) = 150
Night Spinner (Holofields, SS) = 140
Ravager (NS) = 115*

Eldar Primary/DE secondary:
Opening volley gives me - 24 poison shots, ~15 36" Scatter WS S6/S7 shots, some ignoring cover, 2x Fire Prism S9 AP1 Lances, Night Spinner and 3x Dark Lances
Reliant damage primarily comes from vehicles. It's Mechdar basically; with MSU scoring bodies.
This list offers greater survivability, but the strength of the list greatly diminishes as vehicles are knocked out.

++++++++

Out of these two lists, I actually like the first list better.

[Sainhann]

yes they can do all those things, but not guaranteed, not in one turn, not while delivering infantry, and not for free :rolleyes:
as I said above, if you want to avoid assault, that means staying away from the enemy and/or objectives. by all, means, crack on.

Thing is Eldar wants the enemy to get close, oh I know that is not good since they lack any thing that can be good in assaults. But the one thing Eldar are very good at is pouring out a ton of firepower.

Take a Squadron of Vypers for Fast Attack give them each a Scatter Laser & Shurkien Cannon and for just 210 points you got 21 strength 6 shots.

Take a Squadron of War Walkers and give them each two Scatter Lasers and for just 210 points you got 24 strength 6 shots.

So for 420 points you got two units that can put out 45 strength 6 shots in one turn.

Now add in your Dire Avengers or Guardians in Wave Serpents and you get more firepower.

Eldar need to strike hard and they have the things to do just that.

Though I would recommend that you never use the Wraithknight since as a Heavy Support choice it lacks the firepower. For 240 points you get just two strength 10 shots.

So that is 120 points for each of those cannons.

The Squadron of War Walkers with 24 shots come out to be 8.75 points per shot.

I know which unit I would take.

[HERO]

So that is 120 points for each of those cannons.

The Squadron of War Walkers with 24 shots come out to be 8.75 points per shot.

I know which unit I would take.

Is that how you see the WK? I see a T8 body with 6W 3+ AS and 4A S10 attacks base. The only reason why I even look at the WK is because it's a meta-changer. It literally stomps on most Tau units, the missile broads the biggest.

[Sainhann]

Is that how you see the WK? I see a T8 body with 6W 3+ AS and 4A S10 attacks base. The only reason why I even look at the WK is because it's a meta-changer. It literally stomps on most Tau units, the missile broads the biggest.

Yes, because Toughness 8 is nothing to units like Imperial Guard Ratling Snipers which by the way are dirt cheap, or to units that have Rending or poison.

A character with a equal or higher WS that has a Invulnerable save could keep it busy in Close Combat and with the right equipment could even take it out.

40k is a bucket of dice game and War Walkers bring the dice the Wraihtknight only has two shots.

So why would I ever take one when I can get a Unit that has 24 shots for less points?

Plus I can get Fire Prisms for nearly half the points and it comes with three types of shots.

Now maybe in a Iyanden army list with it being an HQ it might be okay but right now there are better Heavy Support Choices.

[HERO]

Yes, because Toughness 8 is nothing to units like Imperial Guard Ratling Snipers which by the way are dirt cheap, or to units that have Rending or poison.

A character with a equal or higher WS that has a Invulnerable save could keep it busy in Close Combat and with the right equipment could even take it out.

40k is a bucket of dice game and War Walkers bring the dice the Wraihtknight only has two shots.

So why would I ever take one when I can get a Unit that has 24 shots for less points?

Plus I can get Fire Prisms for nearly half the points and it comes with three types of shots.

Now maybe in a Iyanden army list with it being an HQ it might be okay but right now there are better Heavy Support Choices.

You shouldn't compare the WW with FPs or with WKs. They're all viable choices and used for different things. Compare granny greens to red delicious, not apples to oranges.

[Sainhann]

You shouldn't compare the WW with FPs or with WKs. They're all viable choices and used for different things. Compare granny greens to red delicious, not apples to oranges.

Why all three are choices for Eldar Heavy Support and the first two are far better than the last one.

Both War Walkers and Fire Prisms are cheaper and they are both better than the Wraithknight.

The only use I see the Wraithknight is making money for GW nothing else.

[Learn2Eel]

Why all three are choices for Eldar Heavy Support and the first two are far better than the last one.

Both War Walkers and Fire Prisms are cheaper and they are both better than the Wraithknight.

The only use I see the Wraithknight is making money for GW nothing else.

Units in an army have entirely separate roles. For Tyranids, a Trygon is a line-breaker and a far better one at that than any of the other choices for the points. However, the more common competitive choice is the Dakkafex either on foot or in a Spore Pod. If you need a line-breaker, you take the Trygon, even if it isn't as useful all the time as a Dakkafex. Apply the same principle to a Wraithknight and you will see what Hero means. The other heavy support choices simply don't offer the same mix of speed, durability and melee power - with some ranged strength to boot - that a Wraithknight does. It is effectively the Eldar equivalent of a Trygon, albeit even harder to kill and bearing guns. You might say "but I can take two units for the same points", but that is the issue, you are using up two valuable Heavy Support slots to the Wraithknight's one to fulfill the same role, and not as well as that (as a line-breaker, anyway).

If GW were trying to "coerce" people into buying the Wraithknight, they would have made it a top-tier unit like the Riptide or Heldrake and they would fly off the shelves. As it is, they are a good unit in a wide selection of good units, which may not be the best for the sales specifically of the Wraithknight, but better for their sales overall and better for those who want to field balanced armies.

[chicop76]

@ Hero I like the second list better. Although I do like me some knight. The second is very mobile and deadly.

@ Sain you know how many snipers it will take to kill a knight. I don't think you can order snipers, but 30 shots hit 20 times. 20 hits is 3 rends with 10 saves. Actually 7 saves due to rending, for 2 failed wounds. So 1 wound left on knight. Stick the knight in area terrain and give it shrounding for a +3 cover save which means he saves normally and take 3 wounds. So it will take about 40 ratling snipers to kill him outrigth. Can you run 40 ratling snipers, no. Waith that's 40 ratling snipers if he is not in terrain and not buffed.

Also the biggest questing who in the heck run 40+ snipers besides Tau and Eldar. If you run 20 snipers which still is a lot in a lot of cases it will take you around 3 turns to kill the knight if you are completly ignored.

You take snipers and I clap for joy how about that.

[rle68]

Hero

There's no point chopping someone to death when you can shoot them to death from range. It's safer to shoot:

couldnt agree with you more first thing i have agreed with you on :)

[cebalrai]

In my 4th match with the new codex last night I defeated Space Marines in a 1500 relic match 6-0 and was set to table him in turn 6 had he not resigned.

Notes:

- Turn one, rushed three Wave Serpents in his face, ending their move right up against a Vindicator, 2 Rhinos, and a Predator a little further back. All his shooting combined for one glance.

- I used a 20-man Guardian squad in my deployment zone w/Conceal Warlock in ruins, two Bright Lances. It took some cover-ignoring barrages from his Whirlwind and lost one lance and a few Guardians but otherwise it was great, and ended up holding the relic at the end. Conceal only failed once.

- I tried 10x Banshees, Exarch w/executioner and no powers, and Jain Zar. Their Serpent got into the SM backfield before it was eventually wrecked by glances after taking a ton of fire over multiple turns. It was wrecked by a Krak grenade assault though, meaning Banshee-Zar death popped out and was ready to rock on my turn. It was intentional on my part to place their Serpent right in the heart of their army since I needed to get the Banshees in play ASAP.

- On my turn the Banshee-Zar unit assaulted his Sternguard unit with Chaplain Warlord whom Jain challenged - he accepted. Jain disarmed him (or I imagine cut his hands off) and then instantly sliced his head off. Warlord point. The Banshees wiped the rest of his squad before they could attack; the unit then consolidated behind cover (an active Wave Serpent) and lost only two members the following turn.

- The following turn saw Jain separate from the Banshees and solo a Tac squad while the remaining Banshees assaulted a larger SM unit in cover with a flamer, losing a couple more members in overwatch and maybe one in CC. They ended up chasing the one survivor off the map.

- In turn 5 Jain killed three space marines at range with the Silent Death (BS7 Assault 4 AP2 and they fled off the map.

- My Banshee Exarch cut his Stormtalon in half with her Executioner. He had to hover it to keep it supporting the turn 5 relic rush and he decided to risk a Banshee assault rather than a Swooping Hawk assault.

- I used two 6x Swooping Hawk units, one of which wiped 4/5 of his scouts in upper-story ruins with its grenade pack and then it shot the last scout off the map. The other unit ended up getting assaulted by a 5x Assault Marine squad and managed to get away with the Exarch and two Hawks still intact but killed one of them in overwatch and another in CC.

- A couple turns later (both lept off the map) the same 3x Assault Marine squad assaulted my 3x Hawks but was AWESOMELY blinded during overwatch. The Hawks held until the larger squad of Hawks arrived as reinforcements, killing the last marine in their Hammer of Wrath hits.

- Battle Trance was again amazing. Deep striking with Hawks and then being able to spread out during the shooting phase to avoid being in a tight formation was great. And it really helps our units get back into position to embark when need be, potentially allowing the Serpent to move out a turn sooner.

- All Serpents delivered their passengers as planned. Over the course of the game two were lost and one was unharmed. The three tanks accounted for destroying a Vindicator, three Rhinos, and a Whirlwind. Once I was in his backfield I never had to take a front armor shot at anything, especially given that I rolled a couple stuns.


My total losses:
- 2 Wave Serpents
- 10x Guardian Squad (failed 9 of 11 bolter wounds despite having +1 armor on them)
- 4 Guardians and a Bright Lance platform in the large guardian unit
- 4 Swooping Hawks
- 5 Banshees

Despite killing three units on her own, Jain Zar was unharmed.

This new codex is a blast. :D

[DarkLink]

Yes, because Toughness 8 is nothing to units like Imperial Guard Ratling Snipers which by the way are dirt cheap, or to units that have Rending or poison.

Because ratling sniper spam is such an OP tournament list... Seriously, snipers are not so common and the Wraithknight is not so vulnerable to them that this will likely ever be a problem.

Of the weapons of this nature that can hurt the Wraithknight, none excluding DE poison weapon spam are common in competitve lists, and Mechdar hard-counters DE poison weapons in general so who cares? Hold your Wraithknight back for a turn or two while your Serpents destroy all the Venoms, then let your Wraithknight do its thing.

SMs occasionally use Scout snipers, but they never come in the numbers required to deal with a Wraithknight with any sort of reliability. Sternguard could hurt it, but I'd rather be getting my armor save against Sternguard on a Wraithknight than let them come in an melta/plasma a bunch of stuff.

Eldar will probably take some Rangers, but again, they won't have the raw numbers to effectively deal with a Wraithknight so quickly it becomes useless.





A character with a equal or higher WS that has a Invulnerable save could keep it busy in Close Combat and with the right equipment could even take it out.

If it's someone with Eternal Warrior or a 3++, it's probably someone who's just as expensive as a Wraithknight, and since Eldar are otherwise a shooty army, tying up a nasty enemy HQ choice in assault and possibly killing it is far preferrable to letting it walk through my army. Odds are just as good

Otherwise, if it's a crappy HQ? Free Slay the Warlord. Just killed their Librarian or something.

This argument is just as likely to be a justification for taking a Wraithknight in the first place, by the fact that your opponent has to waste such effort trying to keep the Wraithknight out of his army. In this case, the Wraithknight's a distraction, while the rest of your army does the real work. I use a Dreadknight for this all the time, and the Dreadknight is more expensive and more fragile and trust me when I say this is well worth it. If you think the Wraithknight needs to be able to kill everything in assault to be solid in this role (especially considering it is by far the best counter-assault unit Eldar have now), you don't know much about competitive 40k.



40k is a bucket of dice game and War Walkers bring the dice the Wraihtknight only has two shots.

So obviously Hammerheads suck, right? I'll be glad to know that Tau players won't be taking them. Time to pull out my Land Raiders again.



So why would I ever take one when I can get a Unit that has 24 shots for less points?

Why would anyone take anything but Grots? You can get more shots per point for a humble little Grot than probably any other unit in the game. Or maybe Inquisitorial Henchmen with Storm Bolters can claim that title. How many points is a Grot again? Whatever. Point is, this is a silly argument. War Walkers suck in assault, are slower than the Wraithknight, more fragile than the Wraithknight, and can't ID Nob Bikerz or pop Land Raiders and stuff. This is about as apples and oranges as you can get. Best bet? Take one of both.



Plus I can get Fire Prisms for nearly half the points and it comes with three types of shots.

Can't assault, and two Fire Prisms are generally more fragile than one Wraithknight. Besides, don't "WW get more shots, so they're obviously better"? Take a Fire Prism for your third slot, since it does something the other two options don't, while the other two do something that a Fire Prism doesn't. Man, I'm starting to convince myself what my Eldar list should look like.


Why all three are choices for Eldar Heavy Support and the first two are far better than the last one.

Both War Walkers and Fire Prisms are cheaper and they are both better than the Wraithknight.

The only use I see the Wraithknight is making money for GW nothing else.

Aside from your narrow-minded view of what is and isn't good in 40k, consider that not everyone wants to spam 9 War Walkers for all the shots. Even if the Wraithknight wasn't a pretty solid unit, which it is, there are plenty of people out there who would want it just to have an awesome centerpiece model to their army.

[DarkLink]

- I tried 10x Banshees, Exarch w/executioner and no powers, and Jain Zar. Their Serpent got into the SM backfield before it was eventually wrecked by glances after taking a ton of fire over multiple turns. It was wrecked by a Krak grenade assault though, meaning Banshee-Zar death popped out and was ready to rock on my turn. It was intentional on my part to place their Serpent right in the heart of their army since I needed to get the Banshees in play ASAP.

- On my turn the Banshee-Zar unit assaulted his Sternguard unit with Chaplain Warlord whom Jain challenged - he accepted. Jain disarmed him (or I imagine cut his hands off) and then instantly sliced his head off. Warlord point. The Banshees wiped the rest of his squad before they could attack; the unit then consolidated behind cover (an active Wave Serpent) and lost only two members the following turn.


By the way, you couldn't have assaulted, even if you were wrecked or exploded:


Q: If a unit disembarks from a destroyed vehicle during the enemy turn, can it Charge in the Assault phase of its own turn? (p80)
A: No, unless the vehicle in question was an Assault Vehicle.

[Learn2Eel]

I have found it funny that people say "snipers and massed poison will murder it" but as you said, who takes massed snipers commonly anyway and Eldar have a lot of counters to venom spam Dark Eldar. Other variations of Dark Eldar won't have the range or speed with their splinter weapons to get close to the Wraithknight - remember they are usually 24", the Wraithknight has 36" or 48" guns.

[DrLove42]

I think of his stat line as 2 wraithlords glued together

I can think of plenty of occassions where i've lost a wraithlord in asingle shooting turn, usually from drop pod Sternguard (grrr)

I can think of hundred more where i've seen every gun point at one of them and do nothing.

Is he survivable? Yes
Is he worth his points? Maybe
Will I be taking one? Probably not.

[cebalrai]

By the way, you couldn't have assaulted, even if you were wrecked or exploded:

Oops, how did I miss that? Oh well, wouldn't have changed too much unless I wouldn't have been able to make a handful of 2+ saves.

[SeekingOne]

I see many interesting points about serpent-spam list were made here...



SERPENT SPAM 1850 LIST

HQ

Naked farseer 100pts

TROOPS

11 Guardians 99pts

5x12 guardians 540

3x Starcannon+Shuricannon Wave serpents w/holofields 435
3x bright lance+ shuricannon wave serpents w/holofields 435

TOTAL: 1609

241 points left in an 1850 game. fill out those squads with heavy weapons and toss in a flyer. You'd have to remove one guardian from each squad to make room in the serpents, so you save 9 points, then add the cost of the weapon platforms. of course if you don't kill the entire opposing army the turn you disembark your T3 5+ guardians are going to die in droves.

Hey Klaws,that's a nice list overall - but why Farseer? He has very few useful powers that can be used from inside a Serpent or right after disembarking, and none of them Primaris.

Also, unless I'm missing something, the Serpent-spam actually has one huge drawback that hasn't been mentioned clearly enough. It seems to be 100% dependent on getting first turn.
My personal feeling is that, regardless of codex, most well-designed armies tend to have enough firepower to glance to death 1-2 AV12 vehicles per turn. Let's make it 3 vehicles per 2 turns on average. So, if you get 1st turn, you just rush forward and your opponent gets just 1 turn to shoot at you, and you already have your 4+ (or 3+ with holos) 'flat out jinks' up - so between those and serpent shields saving you from pens you probably will lose no more than 1 WS out of 6. Next turn you move up 6" more and alpha-strike with everything, which indeed might vaporise 2/3 of the opposing army.

BUT, when you don't get first turn, your opponent will have 2 full turns of shooting at you before you hit him, and besides on the second turn of those 2 he would have flyers and deep-strikers coming in and adding to the weight of fire. In such case I see the serpent-spam losing about 3 vehicles in those 2 turns, easily. And that's 50% of your army, which would leave you with not enough force for a good alpha-strike.

So, what am I missing here? :)

[chicop76]

Damn 6th always changing stuff. No pop vehicle assaults.

You know how many ranged poison shots you need to kill a knight. You need 6 failed wounds. So you need 1s and 2s on 6s. You take 2 failed wounds per 6. That means you need 18 wounds on the knight to kill it. Dark Eldar is bs 4 which means that they hit two thirds of the time. 18/2 is 9. 9 x 3 = 27. So you need on average 27 poison ranged attacks to do anything to it. That means about 3 venoms are needed to kill it on average with 36 shots.

The great thing with nids is enfeeble which stacks. I can lower knight to tougness 3. If it survives strength 4 shooting than it will die to preferred enemy guants with furios charge and poison, who would be re rolling to wounds on the big fellow. A squad of 10 attacks 20 times with 12 attacks going through causing 9 wounds forcing 3 failed wounds. Which means all I need is 100 points of gaunts to kill him.

With 15 rolls on biomancy 3 enfeeble rolls are not that hard to get. Did the above trick to a riptide which a pirme shot at it wounding on 2s before. Awesome thing if I was running a zonathorpe I could had instant killed him easy with a warp blast.

Thinking about it more nids just have to enfeeble you to 4 and fire hive guard 6 strength 8 shots at you to kill you with instant death.

Man I need to take more nurglr in my daemons for the enfeeble love. Now I think about it that makes nurgle a lot better in combat than I gave them credit for that's 20 rolls on biomancy.

Tau have a ton of bs 5 snipers, wolves have a ton of strength 8 ap 3. I saw a decent amount of armies can deal with a wraithknight.

Dreadknights are cheap as dirt. Unless you give it full upgrades. I take advantage of the scout move, but I just give mine an incinerator. Sometimes a sword. If I give him flight it's usually just that upgrade. Being 1ft away from anything at game start is always nice.

Maybe I will take three and do the 18" hop and do the tri incenerate. Than next turn I can assault.

[chicop76]

I see many interesting points about serpent-spam list were made here...


Hey Klaws,that's a nice list overall - but why Farseer? He has very few useful powers that can be used from inside a Serpent or right after disembarking, and none of them Primaris.

Also, unless I'm missing something, the Serpent-spam actually has one huge drawback that hasn't been mentioned clearly enough. It seems to be 100% dependent on getting first turn.
My personal feeling is that, regardless of codex, most well-designed armies tend to have enough firepower to glance to death 1-2 AV12 vehicles per turn. Let's make it 3 vehicles per 2 turns on average. So, if you get 1st turn, you just rush forward and your opponent gets just 1 turn to shoot at you, and you already have your 4+ (or 3+ with holos) 'flat out jinks' up - so between those and serpent shields saving you from pens you probably will lose no more than 1 WS out of 6. Next turn you move up 6" more and alpha-strike with everything, which indeed might vaporise 2/3 of the opposing army.

BUT, when you don't get first turn, your opponent will have 2 full turns of shooting at you before you hit him, and besides on the second turn of those 2 he would have flyers and deep-strikers coming in and adding to the weight of fire. In such case I see the serpent-spam losing about 3 vehicles in those 2 turns, easily. And that's 50% of your army, which would leave you with not enough force for a good alpha-strike.

So, what am I missing here? :)

If you go second put them behind cover for a +5-+4 cover save duh.

[SeekingOne]

If you go second put them behind cover for a +5-+4 cover save duh.
I usually don't have enough terrain in my deployment zone to put SIX serpents in cover. Those Eldar tanks take a lot of real estate to deploy... I can get cover for 2-3, 4 at best, but 6? Not realistic. Is it different where you play?

EDIT:
And, details aside, do you mean to say that in general you can (more or less) reliably prevent your opponent from killing more than 1-2 serpents in 2 turns of shooting?

[cebalrai]

I see many interesting points about serpent-spam list were made here...


Hey Klaws,that's a nice list overall - but why Farseer? He has very few useful powers that can be used from inside a Serpent or right after disembarking, and none of them Primaris.

Also, unless I'm missing something, the Serpent-spam actually has one huge drawback that hasn't been mentioned clearly enough. It seems to be 100% dependent on getting first turn.
My personal feeling is that, regardless of codex, most well-designed armies tend to have enough firepower to glance to death 1-2 AV12 vehicles per turn. Let's make it 3 vehicles per 2 turns on average. So, if you get 1st turn, you just rush forward and your opponent gets just 1 turn to shoot at you, and you already have your 4+ (or 3+ with holos) 'flat out jinks' up - so between those and serpent shields saving you from pens you probably will lose no more than 1 WS out of 6. Next turn you move up 6" more and alpha-strike with everything, which indeed might vaporise 2/3 of the opposing army.

BUT, when you don't get first turn, your opponent will have 2 full turns of shooting at you before you hit him, and besides on the second turn of those 2 he would have flyers and deep-strikers coming in and adding to the weight of fire. In such case I see the serpent-spam losing about 3 vehicles in those 2 turns, easily. And that's 50% of your army, which would leave you with not enough force for a good alpha-strike.

So, what am I missing here? :)


You're missing that people can put their vehicles behind cover. A holo-Serpent partially obstructed by a rock gets a 4+ cover save, meaning if the Eldar player doesn't get to go first he will lose less than one Serpent. And don't assume that the enemy will be able to fire everything across the map and focus on just one serpent. It's more likely that some of his guns will lack the range and some will have to attack different targets.

[chicop76]

I usually don't have enough terrain in my deployment zone to put SIX serpents in cover. Those Eldar tanks take a lot of real estate to deploy... I can get cover for 2-3, 4 at best, but 6? Not realistic. Is it different where you play?

EDIT:
And, details aside, do you mean to say that in general you can (more or less) reliably prevent your opponent from killing more than 1-2 serpents in 2 turns of shooting?



Good point. Main reason I stopped playing at battle bunkers was lack of terrain. I found actual gamming stores have more terrain. To answer your question yes. Quite easily. We use the terrain density rules which does make a differance. Also the terrain we use have los blocking terrain. Lost a Tau game due to that.

If you have little or no terrain than you should do what I do with Tau. Take two riptides and place your army behind them. Wow your whole army now have cover saves without no terrain. To get rid of my terrain you have to kill my riptides.

Quite franky it depends on deployment. You are deploying afterwards and can put your serpents out of firing range.

It really depends on my opponent.

1. How many strength 6 or higher shots army x has
2. How many glancing or ones I roll on pens
3. What is my cover save and if they can deny cover.

Let's take 9 longfangs who typicaly have missiles. 6 will hit and they would get 3 glancing hits due to 2+ xover save. With 9 long fangs you just spent a huge chunk of your range shooting to kill one serpent. Now if we have a +5 cover save. That means 12 longfangs, 9 hits, 4.5 glancing and a wreaked sepent. What if serpent x have shrouding which gives it a +3 cover save. 18 long fangs 12 hits, 6 glancing maybe 1 pen, which is still 2 hps. 27 missile shots, 18 hits, 9 glancing/ pen, finally a dead serpent.

In other words you may spend 9 -27 bs 4 missile shots to kill one serpent. Let's not even mention shrounding and flat out. That would be 54 missle shots to kill the serpent.

The point is how much ranged firing your army has. Greyknight all I have to do is stay out of 24" same as sisters. Tau I need to stay out of 36". Which 2 out of 3 deployments is easy to do.

[Defenestratus]

Fact of the matter is that you only really need to get a couple into terrain, then use the existing wave serpents as obscuring cover.

[cebalrai]

Fact of the matter is that you only really need to get a couple into terrain, then use the existing wave serpents as obscuring cover.

Took the words out of my mouth. And if it wasn't for First Blood I'd be tempted to put a cheap Vyper in front (behind cover) to be the cover.

This is really one of the more stupid rules in 40k IMO. Are we supposed to believe that all our skimmers were sitting around parked, doing nothing and then just got ambushed?

[40kGamer]

Took the words out of my mouth. And if it wasn't for First Blood I'd be tempted to put a cheap Vyper in front (behind cover) to be the cover.

This is really one of the more stupid rules in 40k IMO. Are we supposed to believe that all our skimmers were sitting around parked, doing nothing and then just got ambushed?

It would have been nice for bikes/tanks to 'count as' moving in turn 1. :P

[Defenestratus]

Took the words out of my mouth. And if it wasn't for First Blood I'd be tempted to put a cheap Vyper in front (behind cover) to be the cover.

This is really one of the more stupid rules in 40k IMO. Are we supposed to believe that all our skimmers were sitting around parked, doing nothing and then just got ambushed?

Indeed and most places I play houserule it that skimmers count as having moved if they don't go first.

[cebalrai]

Indeed and most places I play houserule it that skimmers count as having moved if they don't go first.


My group was about to do that too because of basically common sense. Then they realized I'd benefit from it most and decided against it :(

[chicop76]

My group was about to do that too because of basically common sense. Then they realized I'd benefit from it most and decided against it :(

Especailly if you scout. Why that doesn't give you a cover save is crazy.

[Defenestratus]

My group was about to do that too because of basically common sense. Then they realized I'd benefit from it most and decided against it :(

I think that the reasons that this mechanic existed in the first place was to counter-balance the effectiveness of last-turn objective grabbing.

But now that tanks can't do that anymore - the mechanic is just dumb.

[DarkLink]

A holo-Serpent partially obstructed by a rock gets a 4+ cover save,

You only benefit from Holofields if you moved, so this doesn't work turn 1.

[Apollinarius]

You only benefit from Holofields if you moved, so this doesn't work turn 1.

No. Holofields are basically Stealth on vehicles. It increases cover save by +1, giving 6+ if you have no other cover save.

[Apollinarius]

In my 4th match with the new codex last night I defeated Space Marines in a 1500 relic match 6-0 and was set to table him in turn 6 had he not resigned.

Notes:

- Turn one, rushed three Wave Serpents in his face, ending their move right up against a Vindicator, 2 Rhinos, and a Predator a little further back. All his shooting combined for one glance.

- I used a 20-man Guardian squad in my deployment zone w/Conceal Warlock in ruins, two Bright Lances. It took some cover-ignoring barrages from his Whirlwind and lost one lance and a few Guardians but otherwise it was great, and ended up holding the relic at the end. Conceal only failed once.

- I tried 10x Banshees, Exarch w/executioner and no powers, and Jain Zar. Their Serpent got into the SM backfield before it was eventually wrecked by glances after taking a ton of fire over multiple turns. It was wrecked by a Krak grenade assault though, meaning Banshee-Zar death popped out and was ready to rock on my turn. It was intentional on my part to place their Serpent right in the heart of their army since I needed to get the Banshees in play ASAP.

- On my turn the Banshee-Zar unit assaulted his Sternguard unit with Chaplain Warlord whom Jain challenged - he accepted. Jain disarmed him (or I imagine cut his hands off) and then instantly sliced his head off. Warlord point. The Banshees wiped the rest of his squad before they could attack; the unit then consolidated behind cover (an active Wave Serpent) and lost only two members the following turn.

- The following turn saw Jain separate from the Banshees and solo a Tac squad while the remaining Banshees assaulted a larger SM unit in cover with a flamer, losing a couple more members in overwatch and maybe one in CC. They ended up chasing the one survivor off the map.

- In turn 5 Jain killed three space marines at range with the Silent Death (BS7 Assault 4 AP2 and they fled off the map.

- My Banshee Exarch cut his Stormtalon in half with her Executioner. He had to hover it to keep it supporting the turn 5 relic rush and he decided to risk a Banshee assault rather than a Swooping Hawk assault.

- I used two 6x Swooping Hawk units, one of which wiped 4/5 of his scouts in upper-story ruins with its grenade pack and then it shot the last scout off the map. The other unit ended up getting assaulted by a 5x Assault Marine squad and managed to get away with the Exarch and two Hawks still intact but killed one of them in overwatch and another in CC.

- A couple turns later (both lept off the map) the same 3x Assault Marine squad assaulted my 3x Hawks but was AWESOMELY blinded during overwatch. The Hawks held until the larger squad of Hawks arrived as reinforcements, killing the last marine in their Hammer of Wrath hits.

- Battle Trance was again amazing. Deep striking with Hawks and then being able to spread out during the shooting phase to avoid being in a tight formation was great. And it really helps our units get back into position to embark when need be, potentially allowing the Serpent to move out a turn sooner.

- All Serpents delivered their passengers as planned. Over the course of the game two were lost and one was unharmed. The three tanks accounted for destroying a Vindicator, three Rhinos, and a Whirlwind. Once I was in his backfield I never had to take a front armor shot at anything, especially given that I rolled a couple stuns.


My total losses:
- 2 Wave Serpents
- 10x Guardian Squad (failed 9 of 11 bolter wounds despite having +1 armor on them)
- 4 Guardians and a Bright Lance platform in the large guardian unit
- 4 Swooping Hawks
- 5 Banshees

Despite killing three units on her own, Jain Zar was unharmed.

This new codex is a blast. :D

Jain Zar is a monster in this codex. I love seeing an army with a Phoenix Lord HQ win games. Extra points for not having a Farseer.

[HERO]

No. Holofields are basically Stealth on vehicles. It increases cover save by +1, giving 6+ if you have no other cover save.

You want to check again man. Once again, Tau does it better ;)

[Apollinarius]

I see many interesting points about serpent-spam list were made here...


Hey Klaws,that's a nice list overall - but why Farseer? He has very few useful powers that can be used from inside a Serpent or right after disembarking, and none of them Primaris.

Also, unless I'm missing something, the Serpent-spam actually has one huge drawback that hasn't been mentioned clearly enough. It seems to be 100% dependent on getting first turn.
My personal feeling is that, regardless of codex, most well-designed armies tend to have enough firepower to glance to death 1-2 AV12 vehicles per turn. Let's make it 3 vehicles per 2 turns on average. So, if you get 1st turn, you just rush forward and your opponent gets just 1 turn to shoot at you, and you already have your 4+ (or 3+ with holos) 'flat out jinks' up - so between those and serpent shields saving you from pens you probably will lose no more than 1 WS out of 6. Next turn you move up 6" more and alpha-strike with everything, which indeed might vaporise 2/3 of the opposing army.

BUT, when you don't get first turn, your opponent will have 2 full turns of shooting at you before you hit him, and besides on the second turn of those 2 he would have flyers and deep-strikers coming in and adding to the weight of fire. In such case I see the serpent-spam losing about 3 vehicles in those 2 turns, easily. And that's 50% of your army, which would leave you with not enough force for a good alpha-strike.

So, what am I missing here? :)

Glancing to death an AV12 vehicle with a 4+ cover save is pretty hard, especially at greater than 36" range. You need 4 S8 hits or 6 S7 hits or 12 S6 hits to just get one hull point off. That means a Wave serpent can absorb three times the above amount. If things are hitting at BS4, that means you need 18 S8 or 27 S7 or a whooping 54 S6 shots with over 36" range. Show me a sub 2000 point army that can do that and I'll be impressed.

AV12 Glanced to death in turn 1. Seriously, get real.

[DarkLink]

No. Holofields are basically Stealth on vehicles. It increases cover save by +1, giving 6+ if you have no other cover save.

No. Go read the codex. It says "Provided the unit moved in the previous turn,​ it gains +1 cover save".

[chicop76]

No. Go read the codex. It says "Provided the unit moved in the previous turn,​ it gains +1 cover save".

Page 67 Eldar codex and even says the same thing for the quick referance. Also if you look at the wraithknight thread I quoted where you can find the knigh does not need 25% to get cover in area terrain. Just go to the back of the book and look up area terrain. Just for giigles I am going through the FAQ now.

[40kGamer]

No. Go read the codex. It says "Provided the unit moved in the previous turn,​ it gains +1 cover save".

+1... holofields require movement to work. IIRC this game mechanic goes back to EPIC phantoms in the early 90's before that lovely little game was taken out behind the barn and shot!

[cebalrai]

Jain Zar is a monster in this codex. I love seeing an army with a Phoenix Lord HQ win games. Extra points for not having a Farseer.


Jain's thrown weapon is what caught me off-guard. Assault 4 AP2. :)

One thing I found out through experience - in challenges Disarm is a quasi-invuln save. If your opponent's AP2 weapon is removed then they have to just punch you which when successful in Jain's case is an approximate equivalent to having a 2++.

Also, Jain Zar's Blade of Destruction is no longer a 2-handed power weapon so she can use it with The Silent Death for an extra attack. She's S4 but rerolling misses with Shred makes that forgivable.

One huge improvement in this codex is that we no longer need a Farseer for our units to work properly or to have mandatory RoW. It just makes everything much more playable and flexible - and it makes us much less predictable as to what list we'll show up with. This is a very substantial improvement to the codex which I feel reviewers aren't properly appreciating.

[Sainhann]

@ Hero I like the second list better. Although I do like me some knight. The second is very mobile and deadly.

@ Sain you know how many snipers it will take to kill a knight. I don't think you can order snipers, but 30 shots hit 20 times. 20 hits is 3 rends with 10 saves. Actually 7 saves due to rending, for 2 failed wounds. So 1 wound left on knight. Stick the knight in area terrain and give it shrounding for a +3 cover save which means he saves normally and take 3 wounds. So it will take about 40 ratling snipers to kill him outrigth. Can you run 40 ratling snipers, no. Waith that's 40 ratling snipers if he is not in terrain and not buffed.

Also the biggest questing who in the heck run 40+ snipers besides Tau and Eldar. If you run 20 snipers which still is a lot in a lot of cases it will take you around 3 turns to kill the knight if you are completly ignored.

You take snipers and I clap for joy how about that.

Thing is about Imperial Guard is that they can also take other things as well and they can put out a ton of firepower that can and will wound the WK.

They can get cheap Missile Launchers and those will wound it.

I bet that I can drop one of them is a turn of firing and still have plenty left over to shoot at your other units.

or

I can just ignore it since it is not going to do much in Close Combat or will it do much with it shooting. The best Shooting package for it is the Suncannon and then take a Scatter Laser on the Shouder. It would then have some shooting ability that will be Laser Lock due to the Scatter Laser so they will be Twin-Linked.

But that is 300 points and even then I could still ignore it. Plus 300 points is a lot of points for just one model.

[DarkLink]

Farseers are still pretty much the standout HQ, though.

[rle68]

I bet that I can drop one of them is a turn of firing and still have plenty left over to shoot at your other units.

if you get first turn ...if you dont youll have 3 or more wave serpents will be blocking your gun line then on turn two your dead or running off the board

leadership modifiers will scatter more troops than big blast templates

[chicop76]

Thing is about Imperial Guard is that they can also take other things as well and they can put out a ton of firepower that can and will wound the WK.

They can get cheap Missile Launchers and those will wound it.

I bet that I can drop one of them is a turn of firing and still have plenty left over to shoot at your other units.

or

I can just ignore it since it is not going to do much in Close Combat or will it do much with it shooting. The best Shooting package for it is the Suncannon and then take a Scatter Laser on the Shouder. It would then have some shooting ability that will be Laser Lock due to the Scatter Laser so they will be Twin-Linked.

But that is 300 points and even then I could still ignore it. Plus 300 points is a lot of points for just one model.


1 squad can take a missile. Unless you do heavy weapons teams. I learn that heavy weapons teams love seeker missles. You know how many missles you need to kill a knight. Let's see. It has 6 wounds so around 12 wounds. Going off bring it down you need atleast 18 missiles. It changes to 27 missiles if the knight have a +5 cover save.

Let's see one guard platoon can max is 300 points andd two heavy team missiles that's 500 points and 1 missile each for 6 will hit you for 600 points roughly. That's 12 missiles. You have to spend almost 1k in points to get enough missles to kill a knight in the open. At one point you will run out of orders. Also heavy weapons teams are rather easy to kill.

I'll just say if it takes an army to kill a great unclean one. I can imagine it takes an army to kill a knight.

[chicop76]

1 squad can take a missile. Unless you do heavy weapons teams. I learn that heavy weapons teams love seeker missles. You know how many missles you need to kill a knight. Let's see. It has 6 wounds so around 12 wounds. Going off bring it down you need atleast 18 missiles. It changes to 27 missiles if the knight have a +5 cover save.

Let's see one guard platoon can max is 300 points andd two heavy team missiles that's 500 points and 1 missile each for 6 will hit you for 600 points roughly. That's 12 missiles. You have to spend almost 1k in points to get enough missles to kill a knight in the open. At one point you will run out of orders. Also heavy weapons teams are rather easy to kill.

I'll just say if it takes an army to kill a great unclean one. I can imagine it takes an army to kill a knight.

Do you even play guard. Missiles and sniper rifles really. No vendettas, no lascannons, no plasma vets, no 4x plasma/ melta 5 man platoon squad shooting. Everything you mentioned for the guard is laughable.

[DarkLink]

Right? If you're going to cherry-pick examples to try and make the Wraithknight look bad, at least pick armies that you might actually end up facing at some point. I've never, ever seen an IG missile/sniper spam list.

[HERO]

Do you even play guard. Missiles and sniper rifles really. No vendettas, no lascannons, no plasma vets, no 4x plasma/ melta 5 man platoon squad shooting. Everything you mentioned for the guard is laughable.

You are still quoting yourself rofl

[chicop76]

Do you even play guard. Missiles and sniper rifles really. No vendettas, no lascannons, no plasma vets, no 4x plasma/ melta 5 man platoon squad shooting. Everything you mentioned for the guard is laughable.

Lol. What's wrong with quoting myself.

[HERO]

Lol. What's wrong with quoting myself.

Nothing, just half the time it looks like you're arguing with yourself!

[Sainhann]

Do you even play guard. Missiles and sniper rifles really. No vendettas, no lascannons, no plasma vets, no 4x plasma/ melta 5 man platoon squad shooting. Everything you mentioned for the guard is laughable.

Is it?

As you said Heavy Weapons teams are easy to kill because GW consider then just one model when there are two guys running it so they die to Instant Death with ease. So giving them a single shot Las Cannon that is expensive is not that good.

Plus I run foot Imperial Guard.

Standard Cmd Section

3 x Squads of Veterans all Demo
1 x Mech Platoon with Cmd Section and three Squads no Heavy Weapons in any of the Squads because they need to move forward.
1 x Assault Platoon with Cmd Section and three Squads also no Heavy Weapons because these are also meant to move forward. Also has Special Weapon Sections
1 x Heavy Support Platoon Cmd Section three Squads all having Missile Launchers and Heavy Support sections and Special Weapon Sections.
2 x Squads of Snipers they are dirt cheap for just 5 of them in each squad.

Oh and while I might not have Heavy weapons in two of the platoons they are loaded with Special weapons. My prefer are Grenade Launchers due to it having a 24" range and can fire either a strength 6 shot or a strength 4 blast, the other are Flamers. Oh and right now both the Mech Platoon and Assault Platoon everyone is equipped with Krak Grenades. The 30 Veterans all have Melta Bombs.

So in the army there are 20 Flamers and 19 Grenade Launchers then you can add in the 7 Demo Charges and Hvy Bolters Multi-Lasers and Missile Launchers.

Total number of models in my 2000 point list is 190 with only four being vehicles.

Oh and because I have so many guys with Krak or Melta Bombs (100 out of the 186 Infantry models) the Wave Serpent rush or any vehicle rush is not a good thing to do against it because they want vehicles that have a 10 AV on the rear to get close.

I would use the Heavy support platoon and Snipers to shoot at the WK the rest of the army will be busy killing your other stuff or I could just forget about it and just kill your other stuff.

Then deal with it.

My Imperial Guard is nothing but cannon fodder and is loaded with redundancy. Plus it functions far differently than most other guard it will come to you.

Yes they are sucky troops but what Guard aren't? But it is a horde army and it does pack a lot of firepower.

If it is facing another horde army (rare today) use the Blast and Flamers. If they are facing a vehicle rush then get in close and assault them with the Krak Grenades.

If facing a MEQ army then light them up with all those Flashlights that they are carrying or move a squad out knowing my opponent will charge it and they will most likely die but they might take a few of the enemy with them. Then on my turn light the victors up with the Flashlights and Flamers and Krak Grenades.

Oh and against that standard Vendettas and Plasma Vet's army that a lot of Guard players are using I would most likely win because the Vendettas can't kill enough and once those Vet's are on the ground they will shoot to pieces a few of my squads and then I would kill them.

[chicop76]

The problem with guard list they put me to sleep

Hello I play guard.

First HQ

3 grenade launches with auto cannon on comand squad
3 grenade launchers with auto cannon on command squad

Elites
10 ratling snipers

Troops
Platoon command 3 grenade launchers auto cannon
10 guardsman grenade laucher auto cannon
10 guardsman grenade laucher auto cannon
10 guardsman grenade laucher auto cannon
10 guasdsman grenade launcher auto cannon
10 guardman grenade launcher auto cannon
6 special weapons 3 grenade launchers
6 special weapons 3 grenade launchers
Commisar power axe
10 demo vets 3 grenade lauchers autocannon
10 demo vets 3 grenade launchers autocannon
10 demo vets 3 grenade launchers autocannon

Fast
3 scout sentinels flamers
3 scout sentinels flamers
3 scout sentinels flamers

Heavy
3 griffons
3 griffons
3 griffons

I have a lot of troop, a lot of vehicles, a lot of cheap crap hehehehee. I have pewwpewww.

Anyway I have not ideal that is an 1850 list. It's probably 1k with guard.

Anyway I learned melta vets are annoying so I shoot them dead.

Doing a guard list puts me to sleep. Feels like writing a novel.

[Dave Mcturk]

This is really one of the more stupid rules in 40k IMO. Are we supposed to believe that all our skimmers were sitting around parked, doing nothing and then just got ambushed?

THIS... another thing not fixed in 6th...

but main point ... no one seems to mentioning the major 'rules' changes to eldar units... ones ive spotted so far:

WARPS are better... BUT... DO NOT get a secondary jump...
PLORDS are 'better' ... and there is no mention of them being tied to their ASPECT ? ... is this an error?
Vibro cannon are awesome... but their rules are unclear ... do they now need LOS ?
IMO Falcons and Prisms should have power shields ...for pitys sake.. walkers have them !
Eldar psykers die like little girls to 'shadow nidz' ... no more runes ! really sad !
HAWKS are still road kill...

[Finnegan]

WARPS are better... BUT... DO NOT get a secondary jump...

Movement phase: 6+2d6'' (Warp Jump Generator)
Shooting: d6 run, rerollable (Battle Focus, Fleet)
Assault 2d6 (Jet Pack Infantry)

Potentially 11-36'' in one turn. Yes, their secondary jump (thanks to Warp Jump Generator) is now made in movement phase (it's rather their primary jump, secondary it's from Jet Pack Infantry rule ;) ).

Hawks are not road kill - you have to use them wisely, against certain armies.

I do, however, agree that eldar psykers have worse psionic defense than Marines, Wolves or GK, and no ability to hinder enemy psionics (even IG has some ways, not to mention Nids) and that sucks...

[cebalrai]

This is really one of the more stupid rules in 40k IMO. Are we supposed to believe that all our skimmers were sitting around parked, doing nothing and then just got ambushed?

THIS... another thing not fixed in 6th...

but main point ... no one seems to mentioning the major 'rules' changes to eldar units... ones ive spotted so far:

WARPS are better... BUT... DO NOT get a secondary jump...
PLORDS are 'better' ... and there is no mention of them being tied to their ASPECT ? ... is this an error?
Vibro cannon are awesome... but their rules are unclear ... do they now need LOS ?
IMO Falcons and Prisms should have power shields ...for pitys sake.. walkers have them !
Eldar psykers die like little girls to 'shadow nidz' ... no more runes ! really sad !
HAWKS are still road kill...


People have pretty much mentioned all these things. But let me help you out.

1) Warp Spiders are jet pack infantry, not jump. Their warp jump generators allow them to move 2d6+6 in the movement phase and they still get the thrust move in the assault phase like regular jet packs.

2) There's no more PLords disciple rule.

3) If there's no rule saying Vibrocannons don't need LOS then they need LOS.

4) Falcons and Prisms can take holofields. A 4+ save is pretty good IMO.

5) Eldar psykers are fine.

6) Swooping Hawks are great. 16 points for their huge bag of tricks is a great deal.

[Dave Mcturk]

WARPZ
no assault after run move ? surely ? so possible 8 inch move and one dead, followed by a 2" failed charge ... though why anyone would charge spiders by jetpack when you get closer by a SAFE jump AND then a safe[r] charge ... ?

[Finnegan]

Spiders are better at shooting than charging enemy, but they can still assault after Warp Jump move.

Fleet allows you to re-roll failed charge distance, but yes, it's still possible to roll double 1 on Warp Jump, loose one Spider, roll again double 1 on charge, use Fleet rule and again roll double 1. That's called "Spider's bad day", I think.

[Xenith]

WARPZ
no assault after run move ? surely ? so possible 8 inch move and one dead, followed by a 2" failed charge ... though why anyone would charge spiders by jetpack when you get closer by a SAFE jump AND then a safe[r] charge ... ?

The 2d6 move in the assault phase is the thrust move, not an assault move. They can run and use the thrust in the same turn.

[Defenestratus]

The 2d6 move in the assault phase is the thrust move, not an assault move. They can run and use the thrust in the same turn.

Don't forget that the jetpacks make you relentless too, so you can give the exarch a spinerette rifle, triple tap with Str6 AP1 with fast shot, then if you want, you can assault.

[rle68]

Don't forget that the jetpacks make you relentless too, so you can give the exarch a spinerette rifle, triple tap with Str6 AP1 with fast shot, then if you want, you can assault.

What ^ he said... word

[cebalrai]

I have no idea why some people are saying that Swooping Hawks are poor. They seem great for their points to me and I've had a lot of success using them so far. They murder Tau Pathfinders and SM scouts as well as pretty much any vehicle. Their ability to force blind checks onto units just by the Exarch hitting something (no wound needed) is pretty great. Jump packs + haywire grenades tend to really freak people out and change how they play. Even if your Hawks get shot up and there are only two or three of them left they're still a serious threat to vehicles.. Or they can skyleap and drop another pack.

And it's funny when they blind people during overwatch and get assaulted by klutzes :)

They're cheap too.


Another subject...

I don't have my book in front of me. Can Autarchs get two Avenger Shuriken Catapults and fire them both?

[chorde]

The 8 marine killing combo cost about the same as the marines, unless you take marines without upgrades.

.
@Chorde can you mention what powers and unit the daemon player had. Anyone can table any army. For all we know he could had all flamers and pink horrors. Just saying I tabled grey knights turn 1 before, but he was playing cortez and a bunch of inquestion guardsmen with 4 monkies per squad.

It's the fact the serpents can do what they do at such low point cost is the point.

he had 7 flying mc's 2 squads of 15 plague bearers and 10 manta ray looking critters with 2d6 cc against vehicles...oh and a portal of some description, sorry not sure of the proper names, there was warp storm each turn and 17 psychic spells which boosted S,T and initiative mostly. Eldrad was squished by a demon that had WS8, Str8,T8 and I 10, about 6 attacks I think it was.

I played against imperial gaurd today using the same list, he had 3 vendettas, manticore, hydra, 5 veteran squads, mabo and an allies attachment with...mmm not sure what they are called, str 4 power weapons 5++ save 4 attacks each on the charge (we call them dancing girls) with cortez in a valkyrie? he had 1 beaten up squad of veterans left at the start of his turn 2

His flyers comming on evened it up a bit, but I tabled him in turn 6, was only 3 veterans left to kill by then. I lost 5xdragons, fuegan, 2 serpents, 1 wraithguard and 3 gaurdians...certainly not complaining, but a little disapointed with the psykers, once again they did nothing, apart from eldrad using the aa/interceptor gun to blow the valkyrie, cortez and 6 dancing girls into tiny pieces as soon as they arrived hehe,

[Defenestratus]

Another subject...

I don't have my book in front of me. Can Autarchs get two Avenger Shuriken Catapults and fire them both?

Unless a model has two pistols, then he can only fire one gun per turn (devoid any other special rules)

[deinol]

No to two catapults, he can get a twin-linked catapult for a nickel.

I'm tempted by the p sword/shimmer shield just for the 5+ invulnerable save (works against shooting now!)

[cebalrai]

No to two catapults, he can get a twin-linked catapult for a nickel.

I'm tempted by the p sword/shimmer shield just for the 5+ invulnerable save (works against shooting now!)


I was referring to an Autarch not a Dire Avenger Exarch. :) Funny story though, in my last match I decided to use the cheap TL ASC even though it's a pretty weak option. I have a nice twincat model though so I used it anyway.

My Exarch still missed a shot with BS5 rerollable. :(

[Power Klawz]

Sadly autarchs can't get any of the really cool exarch gear. Scorpion claws, chainsabres, executioners, tempest launchers and twin linked shuricats are all no-gos for Mr. Commandy McBosspants.

He's relegated to scoprion chainsword, power weapons or one of the remnants of glory. He can take a lance thing like shining spears if he's on a jetbike though.

[deinol]

I was referring to an Autarch not a Dire Avenger Exarch. :) Funny story though, in my last match I decided to use the cheap TL ASC even though it's a pretty weak option. I have a nice twincat model though so I used it anyway.

My Exarch still missed a shot with BS5 rerollable. :(
Oh, right. I should learn not to post first thing in the morning.

Yeah, without a special rule you only get to fire one weapon. You can give the Autarch a banshee mask and it'll takes one model to reduce init, not that my Harlies often go second…

[Apollinarius]

Unless a model has two pistols, then he can only fire one gun per turn (devoid any other special rules)

You can't fire two pistols either unless there is a special rule allowing it (Seraphim or chainsabres). Non-monstrous creatures can only shoot one weapon in the shooting phase, regardless of how many hands it uses.

[Defenestratus]

You can't fire two pistols either unless there is a special rule allowing it (Seraphim or chainsabres). Non-monstrous creatures can only shoot one weapon in the shooting phase, regardless of how many hands it uses.

You might want to read page 52 "gunslinger" :)

[Apollinarius]

I have no idea why some people are saying that Swooping Hawks are poor. They seem great for their points to me and I've had a lot of success using them so far. They murder Tau Pathfinders and SM scouts as well as pretty much any vehicle. Their ability to force blind checks onto units just by the Exarch hitting something (no wound needed) is pretty great. Jump packs + haywire grenades tend to really freak people out and change how they play. Even if your Hawks get shot up and there are only two or three of them left they're still a serious threat to vehicles.. Or they can skyleap and drop another pack.

And it's funny when they blind people during overwatch and get assaulted by klutzes :)

They're cheap too.


Hawks are so much better than they used to be, it's awesome.

Nevertheless, I prefer Spiders. Haywire is great, but they can't charge on the turn they deep strike, which means that you have to be a lot more careful when you drop them behind enemy lines. No scatter rule helps there, but the Spiders' S7 weapons against vehicles' rear armor makes them more deadly. They destroy everything except Monoliths and Land Raiders on the turn they drop in. Battle focus is so strong, I honestly can't believe they gave it to us.

Now I can play Eldar the way I've always wanted to play Chaos Daemons. Half of my army in reserve, deep striking all over the place and destroying the enemy from all directions. The infiltrating Scorpions in Serpents (the best Eldar tank also happens to be a dedicated transport for some reason) help with that.

[Apollinarius]

You want to check again man. Once again, Tau does it better ;)

I checked and now I'm not sure if the 6+ is in all cases or only if you moved. The +1 is only if you moved, I guess to diminish the second turn advantage for an army with that level of firepower.

I need to read more carefully next time :D

[Power Klawz]

Hawks are basically Guard spoilers. Guard is probably the strongest army right now, you could make an argument for necrons too, but that's the short list. Hawks are basically spec built to mulch guard all day, errday.

Also good against nids and orks, and ok against basically everything else. Spiders are just basically better than them in most circumstances. Its nice being spoiled for good choices though.

[HERO]

I checked and now I'm not sure if the 6+ is in all cases or only if you moved. The +1 is only if you moved, I guess to diminish the second turn advantage for an army with that level of firepower.

I need to read more carefully next time :D

Tau flat out says +1 to your cover save. So if you're Jinking, it's always a 4+ regardless if you moved or not.

[Power Klawz]

Keep everything that doesn't have a serpent shield in reserves. Watch as entire army unloads into your transports, rub hands together in a sinister fashion whilst exclaiming "just as planned."

[deinol]

Tau flat out says +1 to your cover save. So if you're Jinking, it's always a 4+ regardless if you moved or not.

You have to move to jink.

[Power Klawz]

You have to move to jink.

These are true facts.

[HERO]

You have to move to jink.

Right, I was talking about the wording of the Tau book specifically; meaning that its worded to apply the +1 cover save regardless if you moved or not.

Sorry if this was confusing.

[cebalrai]

So in my 1850 tournament coming up I'm running 6 Serpents with Guardians, possibly one of them with DAs or FDs instead. I'm looking for a cheap HQ, and in this list I really don't need much from him. Right now it's looking like a minimal Autarch or a Spiritseer. What are people's thoughts about running a Spiritseer without Wraith units? I'm thinking two Telepathy powers per turn might be nice - or Conceal/Reveal plus a Telepahy. It's only 30 more points for a basic Farseer, but 30 points is the equivalent of two Serpent holofields so it's a real difference... And like I said, I don't really need a whole lot from him.

[Learn2Eel]

I was supposed to play a 3000 point game against a veteran Eldar player today, but it was downgraded to 1750 points instead. I must say, I was impressed; his vehicles were hard as heck to destroy, the firepower was nasty as hell and the fact that all Eldar are WS/BS4 and I5 is crazy good, significantly reducing the need for psychic support. The Wraithknight didn't do too much outside of getting extremely luck and sniping my Daemon Prince on Overwatch (two hits, two wounds, one failed even with a re-roll), though I was smart and recognized that it didn't really pose too much threat and simply ignored the thing. It is downright near impossible to kill by conventional means, and aside from a few models in my army, I had little that could reliably do anything to it. The one thing that probably would have killed it in a single go, or at least left it as easy prey for the rest of my army, was the Black Mace-armed Tzeentch Daemon Prince.

I think that for a Wraithknight, the best way to use it is in a configuration that your opponent simply cannot ignore; play to its two biggest strengths, its mobility and durability, and just go right ahead. The guy I was playing was using it for only the second time, so I perfectly understand the reason for it, but he was too cautious with it and didn't use the fact that it was a Toughness 8 Wounds 6 monster to force me to fire at it. It may have been that the Wraithcannons simply didn't frighten me that much - though that seems odd considering I used a mech army - as it was an objective-based game and I had tonnes of Infantry. A Wraithknight armed with Suncannon and Scatter Laser or Sword and Shield though? Holy hell, that would have been a nightmare. Firepower wise, I think the Suncannon is the way to go as it simply decimates any kind of Infantry and even light vehicles. The Wraithcannons are obviously great against vehicles and monstrous creatures, but only have two shots - the benefit here being that it is much cheaper. In this edition, I feel the Suncannon is more important, particularly with a Scatter Laser. But as a sheer distraction unit like a Nemesis Dreadknight? The melee configuration with maybe a pair of shoulder weapons thrown in for sure. Enemies won't be able to afford it, most (outside of Dark Eldar, sniper-spam Tau and poisoned Tyranids) will need to use their entire array of heavy weapons to even reduce it to a few wounds in a single turn, and even that may not be enough when it will make combat on turn two.

[chicop76]

Unless a model has two pistols, then he can only fire one gun per turn (devoid any other special rules)

???

I thought gunslinger allowed you to shoot both. You see two fusion pistols with BA all the time now. Makes the assault squad have 4 melta weapons, 6 with priest which is rather nasty with decent of angels or from a drop pod. You have to drop. Melta or 2 if using a pod.

I have used Telepathy with Daemons and Tyranids. I have to say 3 powers stand out to me the most. The other 3 I have to be by my book and see.

1. Invisibility gives you shrouding and stealth. Not only that it help you in combat as well. I have to look at the combat bonus, but it's pretty good. Better be since it is 2 charges.

2. Pupet Master: this power is ok. I would use it on tanks or a heavy squad that have all heavy weapons. The problem here you need a 5 or lower on two dice to pick your target or it turns into random rolling. It's still good though. Especially if a skyray is shooting a hammer head in the rear. Lol.

3. Hallucenate: you have a very good chance of the unit doing nothing or beating itself up. It even forces the unit to activate force weapons upon itself. Great vs Paladins if you get through the +4-+5 deny the witch.

The fall back power is still good ince it's like a mini doom blasting a unit.

I go telepathy and biomancy a lot on my tyranids.

[Sainhann]

???

I thought gunslinger allowed you to shoot both. You see two fusion pistols with BA all the time now. Makes the assault squad have 4 melta weapons, 6 with priest which is rather nasty with decent of angels or from a drop pod. You have to drop. Melta or 2 if using a pod.

I have used Telepathy with Daemons and Tyranids. I have to say 3 powers stand out to me the most. The other 3 I have to be by my book and see.

1. Invisibility gives you shrouding and stealth. Not only that it help you in combat as well. I have to look at the combat bonus, but it's pretty good. Better be since it is 2 charges.

2. Pupet Master: this power is ok. I would use it on tanks or a heavy squad that have all heavy weapons. The problem here you need a 5 or lower on two dice to pick your target or it turns into random rolling. It's still good though. Especially if a skyray is shooting a hammer head in the rear. Lol.

3. Hallucenate: you have a very good chance of the unit doing nothing or beating itself up. It even forces the unit to activate force weapons upon itself. Great vs Paladins if you get through the +4-+5 deny the witch.

The fall back power is still good ince it's like a mini doom blasting a unit.

I go telepathy and biomancy a lot on my tyranids.

But can those Blood Angels equip two Plasma Pistols? Because sure you can model them with two but if they can only buy one then they don't have two Plasma Pistols.

I was considering this with my Storm Guardians but their war gear only allows for just one pistol, so no Gunslinging for them and no Gunslinging for any Eldar model.

I would really check the Blood Angels Codex and I believe that you just might find that they can't get more than one Plasma Pistol per model.

If that is the case you will need to point that out because those Blood Angels are trying to pull a fast one.

[Power Klawz]

I wonder if suncannon+scatter laser will cause more damage than suncannon+starcannon. Rerolling scatter or adding 2 extra shots? I really just want to drop 5 plasma templates a turn though for sheer shock value, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the mathematics.

Of course its dependent almost entirely on your opponents positioning, but if we consider that the best case scenario is that you at least hit your original target on a small base...

1 inch base, assume we are centered on it to begin. 3 inch blast diametermeans 1.5 inches in either direction will still hit the intended target. 66% chance to scatter, the odds of rolling 5 or less on 2 d6 are then... 27% I think.

That should work out to almost exactly 50% chance of hitting the intended target. So that's 5 blasts, of which approximately 2.5 will hit their intended target. If you twin link 3 blasts instead your chance to scatter is reduced to 44%, so your actual accuracy should be 68% for an average of around 2 hits. I think you win out on both overall accuracy and maximum potential with 5 shots... the only thing you miss out on is overwatch. But as a jump MC you should probably be charging first if you see something headed your way anyways, you could throw in a shuricannon for giggles though on top of that.

[Defenestratus]

But can those Blood Angels equip two Plasma Pistols? Because sure you can model them with two but if they can only buy one then they don't have two Plasma Pistols.

I was considering this with my Storm Guardians but their war gear only allows for just one pistol, so no Gunslinging for them and no Gunslinging for any Eldar model.

I would really check the Blood Angels Codex and I believe that you just might find that they can't get more than one Plasma Pistol per model.

If that is the case you will need to point that out because those Blood Angels are trying to pull a fast one.

BA vanguard vets and assault sarg's are able to get two plasma (or infernus) pistols.

[Sainhann]

BA vanguard vets and assault sarg's are able to get two plasma (or infernus) pistols.

Then that is legal I was hoping that Storm Guardians would be able to get two Shurkien Pistols but that is not the case.

[Power Klawz]

Wow that would be actually kind of amazing though, maybe not that amazing to play with (better than they are now though) but so cool to model.

[Mr Mystery]

Becoming increasingly tempted by a Guardian heavy force.... Shuriken Catapults are pretty damned awesome! Bit of Guide, and judicious use of Doom and there's precious little will want to get within range of 20 Guardians.

Back them up with War Walkers, perhaps a Prism Tank for flexibility....hmmmm.

[Asuryan]

I wonder if suncannon+scatter laser will cause more damage than suncannon+starcannon. Rerolling scatter or adding 2 extra shots? I really just want to drop 5 plasma templates a turn though for sheer shock value, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the mathematics.

It would be nice if starcannons were blast weapons but sadly they are just heavy 2. so the math is between 3 hopefully twin-linked blasts as long as 1 of 4 scatter laser hits or the 3 blasts with 2 shot gun. i'd lean towards the scatter laser.

[energongoodie]

I'm a big Maugan Ra fan.

Can anyone tell me why he has 'Relentless' with an Assault weapon?

[The Neutronium Alchemist]

He's relentless for the same reason shining spears have battle focus.

Shining spears are eldar, therefore they have battle focus.

Maugan Ra is a dark reaper, therefore he's relentless.

[energongoodie]

It annoys me.

[lattd]

Its fluffy? a lot of GW rules are there just cos of the fluff.

[Dave Mcturk]

good spot from someone... DA shimmershield is all round 5+ IV save not just in cc ... mb my DA exarch will be back in ! though at 43+ point and no shooting is a close call !

[Dave Mcturk]

am i the only one that thinks that running warlocks who fail their powers 10:36 and die 2:36 at the points cost and random allocation is a bit awful unless all you want is conceal-locks anyway ! missing my destructorz !

[cebalrai]

am i the only one that thinks that running warlocks who fail their powers 10:36 and die 2:36 at the points cost and random allocation is a bit awful unless all you want is conceal-locks anyway ! missing my destructorz !


Yes concel-locks (aka reveal-locks) are very good.

If you need them for anything else though it's a crapshoot. But it's a mistake to look at them in isolation. Instead, consider what they can do in the context of your list. For example, if you plan on running one or two units of Dire Avengers in Serpents, consider combining that force with a Guardian w/Warlock squad in a serpent. There are several good warlock powers that will act as force multipliers and it never hurts to have a Singing Spear in the mix. Guardian heavy weapon platforms plus a Spear will seriously threaten light and medium vehicles.

Last match I played, my Guardian-Warlock squad jinxed my opponents' Sternguard down to 4+ armor and massacred them with shooting in combination with nearby disembarking Dire Avengers and their Serpents - except the Serpents got to fire at other targets because the weight of the small arms fire against softened armor was so fierce.

I play against a lot of Tau and Reveal-locks have been awesome in taking out his Pathfinders. That and Serpent Shields :)

[Mr Mystery]

am i the only one that thinks that running warlocks who fail their powers 10:36 and die 2:36 at the points cost and random allocation is a bit awful unless all you want is conceal-locks anyway ! missing my destructorz !

Duh. That's easy. Just ensure you play your game between 10:37 and 2:35. Then you'll never asplode your Warlock!

[Defenestratus]

Duh. That's easy. Just ensure you play your game between 10:37 and 2:35. Then you'll never asplode your Warlock!

You should know by now that wargamers are naturally nocturnal.

[Power Klawz]

It would be nice if starcannons were blast weapons but sadly they are just heavy 2. so the math is between 3 hopefully twin-linked blasts as long as 1 of 4 scatter laser hits or the 3 blasts with 2 shot gun. i'd lean towards the scatter laser.

Mind=blown

For some reason I kept adding a blast to the starcannon weapon profile everytime I read it.

[Mr Mystery]

Gone back through me Eldar Codex.

By cricket I'm tempted by a second Saim Hann force! Grauniad Jetbikes are a bargain.... Two squadrons of 3 Vypers, unit of 6 Shining Spears, 30 Jetbikes and a bunch of War Walkers?

[cebalrai]

Is anyone else having success using Wave Serpents as AA units? The TL scatter laser is likely to roll a 6 with rerolls and then that twin-links the Shuikcannon and shield. And the shield ignores jinking.

[Da Gargoyle]

The one thing I am surprised about is the vulnerability of the Wraiths to poison weapons. With only a 3 plus save, being wounded on a 2+ regardless of toughness means you have to roll those 3+ armour saves. If you are hit by a squad of Wyches or whatever other units are out there with multiple attacks means you are going to fail. I am surprised that this was not a consideration with wraiths given they do not have a biological system to circulate poisons.

[HERO]

The one thing I am surprised about is the vulnerability of the Wraiths to poison weapons. With only a 3 plus save, being wounded on a 2+ regardless of toughness means you have to roll those 3+ armour saves. If you are hit by a squad of Wyches or whatever other units are out there with multiple attacks means you are going to fail. I am surprised that this was not a consideration with wraiths given they do not have a biological system to circulate poisons.

Not many things have 2+ poison, 4+ on the other hand, Venoms will stop most Wraith armies from taking the field because you can't always garauntee Fortune. You need Fortune to survive that amount of poison.

[Learn2Eel]

It's a good thing Wave Serpents trash Venoms and Raiders with unerring efficiency then. While a Wraith phalanx certainly won't work, mounting your Wraithguard/blades in Wave Serpents and having the Wraithknights/lords/seers advance as the rear-guard should do well. Of course, how much of that you can fit into 1500 points or whatever your average game size is, that is a balancing act in of itself.

[SeekingOne]

Gone back through me Eldar Codex.

By cricket I'm tempted by a second Saim Hann force! Grauniad Jetbikes are a bargain.... Two squadrons of 3 Vypers, unit of 6 Shining Spears, 30 Jetbikes and a bunch of War Walkers?

All set and ready to get flamed by a couple of Helldrakes or blasted to pieces by a couple of IG platoons.... :D But yeah, as a fun/fluff army it looks good. Fire prisms are more fitting than Walkers though.

[Finnegan]

[...] or blasted to pieces by a couple of IG platoons.... :D
If we're not talking about playing Saim-Hann forces against IG tailored to confront such build (and I belive that's not the case), I don't think it would be so easy for Guard. All that eldar need is a few LOS blockers to cover the approach within effective shuricat/assault range. Superior maneuverability of such force should allow them to choose right place in IG lines and on the second round the Wild Hunt begins... With Autarch the reserves will appear on 2+, outflanking War Walkers and Shining Spears shooting at side armour of Chimera chasis based tanks will blow them to smouldering pieces and footguard will be obliterated with sheer firepower and assault. Of course poor tactics/target priority, combined with poor rolls will always results in disaster, but I think such build has potential and IG build on platoons isn't its greatest bane...

EDIT: Of course rolling Protect and/or Fortune will be great boon but these days one can't simply hope to have them in every battle ;) On the other hand Conceal is primaris power and 3+ cover / 2+ cover save when turboboosting is really nice thing for Saim-Hann army.


Tha main problem with larger Saim-Hann build is that it's rather expensive to field (lot of jetbikes, converting farseers and warlocks etc. but the idea is tempting (and Saim-Hann is awesome Craftworld ;) )
I agree that War Walkers aren't most fitting unit and I would exchange them for a pair of FW Hornets with two Pulse Lasers/Pulse Laser&Scatter Laser to deal with heavier armour (and they have Scout USR and Star Engines upgrade built-in) ;)

[Mr Mystery]

All set and ready to get flamed by a couple of Helldrakes or blasted to pieces by a couple of IG platoons.... :D But yeah, as a fun/fluff army it looks good. Fire prisms are more fitting than Walkers though.

Cheaper too....and more flexible. Whoever said Fire Prisms had been nerfed during the rumours was talking out of their bottybott!

With three of them, I can hoof, knack or bray depending on what needs a good shooing. Big Blast keeps MEQ heads down. Ickle Blast does over Terminators, and the Lance? Dude. It's a S9 Lance. Nuff said! Good range as well. The shield will be their upgrade...and no Shuriken Cannon!

Well up for this now! Had a Saim Hann force yonks ago, during the Codex Craftworld era. Didn't win a great many games, but every one of them was highly enjoyable!

[DrLove42]

Agreed. Fire Prisms are an all comers dream now. Death to vehicles, TEQ and MEQ

[Learn2Eel]

In a Wave Serpent spam or Saim Han army, I wouldn't be surprised to see three Fire Prisms. They are awesome.

[SeekingOne]

Regarding IG - there's a video report on youtube, new eldar vs IG. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvoQGXFCnPI

The Eldar player got tabled by turn 6. Granted, he didn't seem to have any real plan, and made a few really bad moves, so he could certainly do much better - but still... Call me dumb, but I struggle to envision an Eldar list that would stand an even remotely realistic chance of victory against an IG army like that. Crazy amount of both anti-personnel AND anti-armour firepower, and you can't really outshoot them with normal weapons because they'll go to ground for 3+/2+ cover, and then an officer just orders them back up like nothing happened - and you can't even assault them really well either, because Prescienced platoon will devastate any single squad with overwatch alone. So you need to assault with at least 2-3 squads simultaneously, which is hard to pull off in most cases. And it's really not the hardest list as well - only 2 vendettas, for example (a friend of mine fields 6 of those on regular basis).

The Eldar in the video probably would've been better off just sitting at max distance and firing serpent shields at infantry, while dropping pie plates with hawks and picking at the edges with spiders.

[Learn2Eel]

To be fair, leafblower IG (in general) beats down on just about anything with unerring efficiency.

[SeekingOne]

The IG list in the vid is not the leafblower. It's basically just a big platoon supported by a couple of vendettas, a couple of LRs, one launcher thingie with 4 missiles on it (forgot the name) and an allied SM librarian. Nothing is maxed out, no cookie-cutting, no squadrons of cheesy artillery, no park of 12+ tanks, etc. You really don't get any more generic and balanced than that with IG. And even that feels like a challenge with the new Eldar codex.

[Finnegan]

I thought we've been talking about Saim-Hann build...? Turboboosting Jetbikes with cover 2+ (or armor save 2+ if Protect is rolled), turboboosting Wave Serpents with holofields, outflanking Shining Spears and Warwalkers/Hornets etc? Disembark, hail of fire from Serpents, shuricats, Pulse/Scatterlasers and repeat/assault...? I haven't seen many of these units or such tactic in this video :)

Apart from that - how he expected to win, proxying Crimson Hunter with Ork Flyer...? :p
But yes, in case of that battle harassing from distance would be better option. Using some tactic wouldn't hurt too ;]

[rle68]

All set and ready to get flamed by a couple of Helldrakes or blasted to pieces by a couple of IG platoons.... :D But yeah, as a fun/fluff army it looks good. Fire prisms are more fitting than Walkers though.

fire prisms are what 1 shot? war walker squadron is 36 with scatter lasers .. i think ill take the war walkers vs ig

[rle68]

To be fair, leafblower IG (in general) beats down on just about anything with unerring efficiency.

only if it goes first and a drop pod in your face army flamer anti mech list would seriously hinder that list

[Mr Mystery]

fire prisms are what 1 shot? war walker squadron is 36 with scatter lasers .. i think ill take the war walkers vs ig

Scatter Lasers which do nowt against enemy armour, and are vulnerable to a lot more firepower....

War Walkers are good, but for my list, Prism Tanks all the way!

[Sainhann]

fire prisms are what 1 shot? war walker squadron is 36 with scatter lasers .. i think ill take the war walkers vs ig

War Walkers are 24 shots with Scatter Lasers and you get to reroll misses.

[rle68]

24 yes... my bad thanks for the correction

[daboarder]

War Walkers are 24 shots with Scatter Lasers and you get to reroll misses.

Re-roll misses how?

laser-lock does not work on other laser-lock weapons

[Sainhann]

Scatter Lasers which do nowt against enemy armour, and are vulnerable to a lot more firepower....

War Walkers are good, but for my list, Prism Tanks all the way!

They only can't touch AV 13+ so are great against most vehicles since they are AV 12 or under. They hit on 3+ and with Scatter Lasers get to reroll all misses.

So will hit around 18-21 times and should be able to pop an AV 12 vehicle in one round of shooting.

This even works against Wave Serpents because the Serpent Shield means nothing to them because all of their shots would be glancing at best.

But while they can destroy light vehicles their real target should be Infantry and if the Eldar Player had actually had a Squadron of them in that game they would have shot the Infantry to pieces.

Oh and that Imperial Guard needs to read up on the rules for squad coherency because his squads were around 3.5-4.0".

[Sainhann]

Re-roll misses how?

laser-lock does not work on other laser-lock weapons

Read page 62 of the Eldar Codex and you will find out that they do.

[rle68]

Re-roll misses how?

laser-lock does not work on other laser-lock weapons

so your saying that by the weapon(s) that both have to fire, gain lock then anything else could be twin linked. I see it and yet i think it sucks...guess the kit out is gonna have to be scatter laser shuriken cannon although i like the bright lance now twin linked but less shots

not only that but as a squadron each one is going to have to be rolled for seperatley

[daboarder]

Read page 62 of the Eldar Codex and you will find out that they do.

You mean the part where it tells me to fire ALL laser lock weapons first? and only after that the re-rolls kick in?


treat all weapons on the same model yet to fire as twin linked

[deinol]

Re-roll misses how?

laser-lock does not work on other laser-lock weapons

That's not how I read it. The first one doesn't get to re-roll, but the second one certainly does.

[deinol]

Re-roll misses how?

laser-lock does not work on other laser-lock weapons

That's not how I read it. The first one doesn't get to re-roll, but the second one certainly does.

[daboarder]

That's not how I read it. The first one doesn't get to re-roll, but the second one certainly does.


serious confusion here for no reason


if a model is firing one or more weapons with this special rule and also one or more other weapons, roll to hit with the weapons with the laser lock special rule first. If the laser lock weapons causes one or more hits, treat all weapons on the same model yet to fire in this phase as being twin-linked for the rest of the phase.

I mean really how do you read that any other way?

[rle68]

You mean the part where it tells me to fire ALL laser lock weapons first? and only after that the re-rolls kick in?

careful it does not say fire ALL it says roll to hit with the weapon(s) first.. its the same thing but you know how people get on exact wording

[daboarder]

careful it does not say fire ALL it says roll to hit with the weapon(s) first.. its the same thing but you know how people get on exact wording

fair point.

[rle68]

i wish it was another way i swear i do....twin linked shuriken cannon or bright lance.. hmmmm

[deinol]

N
serious confusion here for no reason



I mean really how do you read that any other way?

Bah, why do they put the same rule two different places with two different wordings. I've been going off the reference sheet which is misleading.

[rle68]

N

Bah, why do they put the same rule two different places with two different wordings. I've been going off the reference sheet which is misleading.

hold the phone!!!!! stop the presses hes exactly right it doesnt even come close to page 62 in the references section.. now im going by what it says on page 62 but there is a small glimmer of hope

[daboarder]

hold the phone!!!!! stop the presses hes exactly right it doesnt even come close to page 62 in the references section.. now im going by what it says on page 62 but there is a small glimmer of hope


the reference is condensed rules, take a look at the Boon table in C:CSM for example.

[rle68]

the reference is condensed rules, take a look at the Boon table in C:CSM for example.

i dont play chaos but ill take your word on it.. now the even bigger issues is the reference listing points to page 62.. i am willing to bet a dollar vs a donut this gets faq'd pretty quick

[deinol]

the reference is condensed rules, take a look at the Boon table in C:CSM for example.

Sure, but if "this weapon" was replaced by "these weapons", it would be a lot clearer and take the same amount of space.

[rle68]

Sure, but if "this weapon" was replaced by "these weapons", it would be a lot clearer and take the same amount of space.

i will admit for my own personal gain i am waffling here a bit it does in effect say two different things

[Demonus]

Anyone had success with the Crimson Hunter yet? Ive played 3 games with it so far, managed to have it come in on turn 4 on the first one, shot up some troops to get them off an objective, and then was hit with 3 bolters and a missile launcher causing me to jink and become worthless after that. Games 2 and 3 it came on of course in turn 2, and was promptly blown from the sky in the bottom of turn 2 by enemy fliers... Ive yet to do anything worth 160pts with mine. Perhaps just bad luck? And hell I haven't even faced a Quad gun yet. I think with them Id be completely useless.

[eldargal]

I've had considerable success with mine.

[rle68]

tried it both ways with the rules for scatter lasers shot one down both times either way works ok.. im not impressed but they dont suck either

[Ferngully]

I haven't found anywhere in Eldar codex same thing the old one had!
Eldar psykers doesn't need LoS or something, how it was? that they could do psychic from tanks etc. But I can't find anything regarding that in the new codex? So they can't do it anymore?

Also eldar jetbikes don't get anything from Battle focus since they don't run, right?
I'm sorry if these have been talked all ready, can't remember all the pages from this thread! :P

[Mr Mystery]

so your saying that by the weapon(s) that both have to fire, gain lock then anything else could be twin linked. I see it and yet i think it sucks...guess the kit out is gonna have to be scatter laser shuriken cannon although i like the bright lance now twin linked but less shots

not only that but as a squadron each one is going to have to be rolled for seperatley

As an old codger, Scatter Laser and Bright Lance just seems right! Quite the classic kit out.

Though usefulness of Lance as it is..... Twin linked Missile Launcher anyone?

[rle68]

As an old codger, Scatter Laser and Bright Lance just seems right! Quite the classic kit out.

Though usefulness of Lance as it is..... Twin linked Missile Launcher anyone?

i considered that except for the extra cost 25 more points for the launchers and the missiles.. naw not for a 10 armored ground pounder

i am liking the scatter lance look though

[chicop76]

The more I look at farseers the better off I think you should just roll 3x on divination. The other day I did that with my Loc and got +4 invulnerable, re roll hits and wounds, and prescience. Needless to say he was useful, but you can't get +2 invulnerable save with eldar though.

Banshes with prescience and invisibility would work rather nice. Get a +2 cover save in cover and than assault lowering the squad to ws 1 and -5 I. Invisibility is a wet dream for banshees.

[Freakeh]

I really wanna try out a farseer with death mission and shard of anaris, he could pretty much beat anything in a challenge I'm thinking.

[chicop76]

I really wanna try out a farseer with death mission and shard of anaris, he could pretty much beat anything in a challenge I'm thinking.

He has a very good chance of dying till the next turn, and will die at game end. Not a power to put on your warlord.

[rle68]

He has a very good chance of dying till the next turn, and will die at game end. Not a power to put on your warlord.

never ever give your opponent free points death mission blows

[chicop76]

never ever give your opponent free points death mission blows

You might need to do it. If you are going to die anyway than you might as well use it.

[Defenestratus]

Anyone had success with the Crimson Hunter yet? Ive played 3 games with it so far, managed to have it come in on turn 4 on the first one, shot up some troops to get them off an objective, and then was hit with 3 bolters and a missile launcher causing me to jink and become worthless after that. Games 2 and 3 it came on of course in turn 2, and was promptly blown from the sky in the bottom of turn 2 by enemy fliers... Ive yet to do anything worth 160pts with mine. Perhaps just bad luck? And hell I haven't even faced a Quad gun yet. I think with them Id be completely useless.

Used it twice. Both times it predictable died before it was able to do anything.

Sold the model to a kid in the store on the spot for $30.

Worthless trash.

[Mr Mystery]

Nice to see you attempting to get used to it......

Anyways. I'm thinking a core of 30 Wind Riders. Ought to give me plenty anti-infantry fire power. Not sure if I'll take them as three units of 10 or what. Big units get lots of Shuriken Cannon, which is dandy, but of course smaller units give me more flexibility....

Time to start tinkering with the Codex methinks.

[Defenestratus]

Nice to see you attempting to get used to it......

There's no "getting used to it"

Its just horrible. When you have mortis contemptors and sabre defense lines and the ubiquitous quad gun in every damn army - its just stupid to use. Before it can even do *a thing* its dead.

The hemlock has one possibility since it can actually do harm before the end of the movement phase it comes in - but the hunter is trash. I've got more than enough FW fliers that are more than worth the price of admission.

[daboarder]

There's no "getting used to it"

Its just horrible. When you have mortis contemptors and sabre defense lines and the ubiquitous quad gun in every damn army - its just stupid to use. Before it can even do *a thing* its dead.

The hemlock has one possibility since it can actually do harm before the end of the movement phase it comes in - but the hunter is trash. I've got more than enough FW fliers that are more than worth the price of admission.

hey if you want to sell something you bought without even giving it solid thought, by all means be that guy. But don't act like you've exhausted every possibility nor extensively tested the flyer with only two games.

oh and no the hemlock cannot cast terrify the turn it arrives as per the psychic power rules.

[chicop76]

There's no "getting used to it"

Its just horrible. When you have mortis contemptors and sabre defense lines and the ubiquitous quad gun in every damn army - its just stupid to use. Before it can even do *a thing* its dead.

The hemlock has one possibility since it can actually do harm before the end of the movement phase it comes in - but the hunter is trash. I've got more than enough FW fliers that are more than worth the price of admission.



So forg world anti air makes a 40k model suck?

[Da Gargoyle]

I get used to my new codex by building a spread sheet to auto calc my points score when building an army. What I have just noticed is 13 HQ choices for 2 slots, You get the Warlocks as a bonus. What the hell was the point of the long rifle when it is only available to 3 HQ options who have plenty of other things on their mind. Given that missile launchers have not changed why are they now so expensive if it is not to discourage their use? And my favourite wraithlord has gone up in points cost but down in strength. Vis a vis walkers and IG though. Have them flank and take an autarch as an HQ, you get a better reserve role option.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I used a box of High Elf cavalry for a Warlock Jet Bike squadron. Their lances look like singing spears and the odd bits and pieces off your guardian sprue can add that techo look. I even used the High Elf helmets, but you could use guardian helmets I have accumulated heaps of spares over the years. Anyway they llok different from normal riders and work well with those spears on any armour.

[cebalrai]

There's no "getting used to it"

Its just horrible. When you have mortis contemptors and sabre defense lines and the ubiquitous quad gun in every damn army - its just stupid to use. Before it can even do *a thing* its dead.

The hemlock has one possibility since it can actually do harm before the end of the movement phase it comes in - but the hunter is trash. I've got more than enough FW fliers that are more than worth the price of admission.


If the CH sucks because you face a boatload of FW anti-flyer stuff every match then you must also say that all flyers suck.

Honestly I blame you for your CH's failing. You knew you'd be walking into anti-flyer hell and you fielded one anyway. And FW fliers wouldn't be worth the price of admission either unless you like snap firing every turn.

If I'm aware ahead of time that my opponent is going to have a lot of Longfangs and I choose to field a Wraithlord that quickly dies, does that make WLs inarguably horrible?


On a side note, I improved to 5-0 yesterday after easily defeating Space Marines in a relic match. I used a Jetseer in a 7-man Shining Spear unit and one-shotted his Land Raider in an assault enhanced with Doom. On the following turn the unit sped off as my Farseer had Lysander's squad hacking itself to pieces. Fun times.

[Defenestratus]

+++CENSORED BY THE INQUISITION+++


oh and no the hemlock cannot cast terrify the turn it arrives as per the psychic power rules.

I wasn't talking about terrify I was talking about the mindstrike pod. Run it up in your movement phase, then tank shock same phase - allows it to do *something* before its turned into particulate dust.


So forge world anti air makes a 40k model suck?

No. The quad gun alone makes the 40k model suck. It just so happens that the Eldar FW are much better at handling the quad gun. They have faced it, and everything else that I mentioned several times and done wonderfully - for less points. The other FW units I mentioned are simply additional reasons why the Eldar codex flyers suck.


Honestly I blame you for your CH's failing. You knew you'd be walking into anti-flyer hell and you fielded one anyway. And FW fliers wouldn't be worth the price of admission either unless you like snap firing every turn.

Around these parts, if you're tailoring your list to play specific people, you're a dickhead. Two of my regular opponents use the contemptor and the sabre guns in their normal lists for their anti-air and I've played against them before and done just fine with the Nightwings and Phoenix. Yes sometimes the flyers jink but a lot of the time I don't have to because they're shrouded by default - and the jinking *keeps them alive until the AA is dead*

Which is the important part here. I'll jink all day long if it means that I'm going to keep my expensive plane alive. The difference is if I jink with a nightwing, I'm going to stay alive. If I jink with a CH then its going to die still more than likely.


If I'm aware ahead of time that my opponent is going to have a lot of Longfangs and I choose to field a Wraithlord that quickly dies, does that make WLs inarguably horrible?

No - it would make you horrible if you're tailoring your lists to fight your opponent. When I show up at my LGS for a game, I don't know who I'll be playing. I could go up against anything from SM, to GK to Orks, to IG, to CSM etc. I don't make 4 lists and say "ohh this one will work great against him since he's got X unit it in and it will really screw up his day."

Thats garbage and borderline cheating IMO. The fact that the CH has NO effective defense from AA *at all* is a failure in the unit itself, not in my list building or playstyle. There's not even much that needed to have been done in order to make it worthwhile. Simply allowing it vehicle upgrades would have been just fine. (That and dropping the points - holy crap is it expensive)

[Mr Mystery]

No effective defence against AA? So much like every other flier out there then, who can either jink, or cross fingers and hope?

[chicop76]

Jesus Christ you people are f*cking thick.



I wasn't talking about terrify I was talking about the mindstrike pod. Run it up in your movement phase, then tank shock same phase - allows it to do *something* before its turned into particulate dust.



No. The quad gun alone makes the 40k model suck. It just so happens that the Eldar FW are much better at handling the quad gun. They have faced it, and everything else that I mentioned several times and done wonderfully - for less points. The other FW units I mentioned are simply additional reasons why the Eldar codex flyers suck.



Around these parts, if you're tailoring your list to play specific people, you're a dickhead. Two of my regular opponents use the contemptor and the sabre guns in their normal lists for their anti-air and I've played against them before and done just fine with the Nightwings and Phoenix. Yes sometimes the flyers jink but a lot of the time I don't have to because they're shrouded by default - and the jinking *keeps them alive until the AA is dead*

Which is the important part here. I'll jink all day long if it means that I'm going to keep my expensive plane alive. The difference is if I jink with a nightwing, I'm going to stay alive. If I jink with a CH then its going to die still more than likely.



No - it would make you horrible if you're tailoring your lists to fight your opponent. When I show up at my LGS for a game, I don't know who I'll be playing. I could go up against anything from SM, to GK to Orks, to IG, to CSM etc. I don't make 4 lists and say "ohh this one will work great against him since he's got X unit it in and it will really screw up his day."

Thats garbage and borderline cheating IMO. The fact that the CH has NO effective defense from AA *at all* is a failure in the unit itself, not in my list building or playstyle. There's not even much that needed to have been done in order to make it worthwhile. Simply allowing it vehicle upgrades would have been just fine. (That and dropping the points - holy crap is it expensive)

I'm not defending it, I'm just going off what you telling us. It's like facing Tau with 3 riptides and 6 crisis suits who have intercept and skyfire. I wouldn't expect it to do well in a game like that.

I typically give a model more than two games of play to see if it is good or not, especial if those two games happened to have it's bane in them.

Thanks for the correction, stupid cell phone makes it a pain to type. I get like a 2-5 second dely and sometimes lose my post. The auto save option is rather nice.

I agree with you on tailering and make an all comers list. I go into games that I know they have paper to my rock, how does paper beat rock any way? I typically take it as a learning experance and try to add elements to my list to handle a list like that if I never thought about a certain combo.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.

Let's say I use plague bearers as troops for example and decide to go with 5 to 6 flying MC monster bash list. My opponent may be playing 5 tervigons with a bunch of gaunts, gargoyles, and a bunch of zonathorpes. The problem with playing said list is 4 out of 6 games I can't really do well unless I wipe the enemy. If those tevigons get iron arm the only way to kill them is to drop down and enter combat, but if I do that I will have hundreds of gaunts ripping me apart with poison attacks. I can't stay in the shy forever due to 10 differant squads constanly trying to shoot me down.

Also normal plague bearers die rather easily to gaunts with buffs.

Now I can add units like damonettes that would help handle armies like this. Also I can take skullcannons and grinders, which in turn I will get more troops

Also I have to keep in mind how often is a list like that is played. It's doubtful for tournament play since a list like that is too slow for tournament play. However that is why I have flamers in my guard army just in case.

At a later date I will still keep my adjustments while I play marines, etc. If my anti horder modifications can't handle marines thn I scale down on anti horder and take more anti marine.

The ideal is to get a balanced list to deal with all possible threats, and or have options to deal with them.

I have no ideal why I don't see Daemon Players play with skullcannons. I use them to blow away the guys hiding behind the aegis defense line and usually prevent the anti air from shooting.

Tailoring is retarded to do and doesn't really help you become a better player. The only time I think tailoring is really acceptable is in a campain type game. If you know you are fighting orcs for a campain than you should go anti orc. It makes sense.

You should be able to take that same list you have and play 3 differant people with it.

Example last weekend I played IG, Orcs and Chaos Space Marines with the exact same Daemon list and trashed all 3 armies. The Orc player was really good, but wasn't aware of 6th edition daemons and expected a ton of flamers.

[cebalrai]

Jesus Christ you people are f*cking thick.



Wave Serpents crush quad guns dude. Twin link it, fire the serpent shield, between the scatter laser and shield it can be messed up or destroyed with with one Serpent. And you have other serpents and other stuff in your list to help out in case it's still there.

You're the only one here that's stuck on quad guns. The rest of us laugh at them.

[Xenith]

You're the only one here that's stuck on quad guns. The rest of us laugh at them.

QFT. If you refuse to use an otherwise effective unit because you are that scared of quad guns, you need to rework the rest of your army to give you some way of removing a quad gun T1, otherwise you are un-neccessarily hamstringing yourself. The Eldar need to work with each other to eliminate threats to the units in reserve.

If you don't think you have the ability to remove a quad gun (what, T7, W2?) in a single round of shooting, then take an autarch to try and keep the flyer off for another turn.

Synergy.

[eldargal]

Or slap a big, tall and wide piece of terrain in front of the quad gun and dramatically limit its field of fire. Don't feel any compunction about using a cheap tactic like that if someone is always taking quad guns, especially if your flyers are only AV10.

[chicop76]

Or slap a big, tall and wide piece of terrain in front of the quad gun and dramatically limit its field of fire. Don't feel any compunction about using a cheap tactic like that if someone is always taking quad guns, especially if your flyers are only AV10.

Or take a fortress and put it in the middle of the board. Infiltrate inside and have your plane get blocked by the huge tower it has.

I usually shoot the quad gunner. That way I can take over the quad gun my self and shoot at my opponents flyers. I done this with my flesh hounds before. Got to love free anti air.

[cebalrai]

Or take a fortress and put it in the middle of the board. Infiltrate inside and have your plane get blocked by the huge tower it has.

I usually shoot the quad gunner. That way I can take over the quad gun my self and shoot at my opponents flyers. I done this with my flesh hounds before. Got to love free anti air.


1) Tank shock into the Aegis line with a Wave Serpent that laughs in the face of even the most fearsome Death or Glory attack in the game.
2) Shoot up all the little exposed punks you pushed outside the wall.
3) Next turn disembark your Dire Avengers or whatever and shoot them up with their own quad gun.

[Mr Mystery]

Or in other words, do anything except ragequit then whine until the cows come home...

[Defenestratus]

Or in other words, do anything except ragequit then whine until the cows come home...

It was anything BUT ragequit. I was like "this thing sucks compared to the planes I already have." The kid I was playing against was like "You want to sell it to me?" and I said "Sure."

FWIW, yes the quad gun is easily dealt with, and a wave serpent tank shock is silly since you'd basically be sacrificing the tank for the flyer to stay alive, maybe - but I shouldn't have to really focus other forces' offensive output on a single model in order to have my plane be able to live more than a single phase - especially when it costs as much as it does.

I tried shooting two squads of seven rangers at the damn thing in the second game. Thanks to nightfight, it had a 2+ cover save behind the ADL - did one wound and that was that. Wave serpents had more important things to shoot at like a hellhound and heavy weapons teams that were about to light up a squad of dire avengers.

First game I purposely didn't take it out because I wanted to see just how bad it *could* be. With my nightwings, I don't even HAVE to get rid of the quad gun (or other AA) ... I just fly on with impunity and shoot the hell out of things... even if one or two had to jink, I still have two other planes that they couldn't do anything about. And thats where the real issue is for me. Redundancy is how to make both the nightwings and CH work. However, with the CH, one of them is always going to be sacrificed on the altar of interceptor whereas the cheaper Nightwings* will still survive more than likely. Throw in other potential costly mitigators such as Autarch or farseer manipulation, and the CH's value just doesn't add up compared to models already in my collection - models I much prefer the look of over the pikachu ducks that the GW flyers are.

As for putting a big piece of terrain in front of the quad gun - at least in my group that would be severely frowned upon. I'm there to play a friendly game - plus usually the terrain is placed before the ADL's are laid out (as the process *should* be).

I don't want to have to focus half of my army on a single model in order for my planes to survive. Thats just silly and hamstringing. I need that firepower to be focused on opposing threats that will grieve my scoring units.


*All assuming that the FW flyers stay the same. I doubt they will - but the email I got from FW is that their rule writers are really busy and can't be bothered at the moment to re-write the Eldar stuff.

[chicop76]

It was anything BUT ragequit. I was like "this thing sucks compared to the planes I already have." The kid I was playing against was like "You want to sell it to me?" and I said "Sure."

FWIW, yes the quad gun is easily dealt with, and a wave serpent tank shock is silly since you'd basically be sacrificing the tank for the flyer to stay alive, maybe - but I shouldn't have to really focus other forces' offensive output on a single model in order to have my plane be able to live more than a single phase - especially when it costs as much as it does.

I tried shooting two squads of seven rangers at the damn thing in the second game. Thanks to nightfight, it had a 2+ cover save behind the ADL - did one wound and that was that. Wave serpents had more important things to shoot at like a hellhound and heavy weapons teams that were about to light up a squad of dire avengers.

First game I purposely didn't take it out because I wanted to see just how bad it *could* be. With my nightwings, I don't even HAVE to get rid of the quad gun (or other AA) ... I just fly on with impunity and shoot the hell out of things... even if one or two had to jink, I still have two other planes that they couldn't do anything about. And thats where the real issue is for me. Redundancy is how to make both the nightwings and CH work. However, with the CH, one of them is always going to be sacrificed on the altar of interceptor whereas the cheaper Nightwings* will still survive more than likely. Throw in other potential costly mitigators such as Autarch or farseer manipulation, and the CH's value just doesn't add up compared to models already in my collection - models I much prefer the look of over the pikachu ducks that the GW flyers are.

As for putting a big piece of terrain in front of the quad gun - at least in my group that would be severely frowned upon. I'm there to play a friendly game - plus usually the terrain is placed before the ADL's are laid out (as the process *should* be).

I don't want to have to focus half of my army on a single model in order for my planes to survive. Thats just silly and hamstringing. I need that firepower to be focused on opposing threats that will grieve my scoring units.


*All assuming that the FW flyers stay the same. I doubt they will - but the email I got from FW is that their rule writers are really busy and can't be bothered at the moment to re-write the Eldar stuff.

Fortifications is placed before terrain. It's in the game summary. Legally if you do the terrain density roll you can put terrain in front of the quad gun if you like, not a very sportsmans thing to do. I would d so in a tournament, but not in a regular game.

Most games however terrain is already set up. Which is not really how you supposed to do it. First you roll for mission and deployment and pick your sides. Than place fortifications on your half of the board. Than you place terrain, and than objectives.

That being said I think hyjacking the anti air gun is always my favorite thing to do. I think it's little silly for flesh hounds using an aa gun to shoot flyers out of the air.

My question is can you give it conceal before interceptor fire upon it. A +3 cover save would help it out.