Overwatch from a Thunderfire Cannon

[stonehorse]

Page 31 last paragraph of the main rulebook says:
Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a Model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.

What is interesting is that here it doesn't say shooting phase, but rather same phase. This is setting precedent for who can shoot, and how many weapons they can each fire in the same phase.

Page 45 third paragraph.
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault Phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover and so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack, Overwatch cannot cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots (pg32). Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch.

So it is a normal shooting attack, just one that happens to be in the opponents assault phase. Note that we have already established by the rules that Monstrous Creatures can fire more than one weapon in each phase. This is what is normal for them, and later on the rules even say word for word that firing two weapons is the norm for them.

Page 68 First paragraph.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules.

So Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures, with a few extra rules.

Page 68 third paragraph.
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous Creatures have the Jink and Vector Strike special rule.

So they have all the special rules as they are Monstrous Creatures.

Page 69 third paragraph.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore fire upto two of their weapons normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don't run). Flying Monstrous Creatures can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.

Here it says that Flying Monstrous Creatures, which are Monstrous Creatures can fire upto two weapons normally, note it doesn't say phase or or even mention phase in the paragraph. When they fire their norm is to fire upto two weapons.

From all of this it is quite clear that the intention of the rules for Monstrous Creatures is to be able to fire both their weapons in Overwatch.

The way GW have written that one line is badly written, but this is GW. They aren't the best at writing clear rules, so it is always best to read around a rule, see what else the book has to say before making a rash call. Making a ruling based upon one sentence is ill advised, especially as when shown above there are several clear contradictions to the ruling people are trying to argue for. It is always best to look at the context of what a rule is saying, rather than a breakdown of word by word.

[DarkLink]

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a Model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.

What is interesting is that here it doesn't say shooting phase, but rather same phase. This is setting precedent for who can shoot, and how many weapons they can each fire in the same phase.

Keep in mind, though, that while it doesn't say "shooting phase" what it is saying is that "some models have a special rule that allows them to shoot multiple weapons".

So if the MC entry (and related entries) specify that they "may fire two weapons normally", then they have a special rule that always applies. If they "may fire two weapons in the shooting phase", then they have a special rule that only applies in the shooting phase.

If they changed the MC rule to "normally", but some things like the Tau wargear still state "in the shooting phase", then this is on a case by case basis. MCs can fire two weapon on overwatch, but Tau battlesuits cannot, Riptide excluded.

[stonehorse]

Keep in mind, though, that while it doesn't say "shooting phase" what it is saying is that "some models have a special rule that allows them to shoot multiple weapons".

So if the MC entry (and related entries) specify that they "may fire two weapons normally", then they have a special rule that always applies. If they "may fire two weapons in the shooting phase", then they have a special rule that only applies in the shooting phase.

If they changed the MC rule to "normally", but some things like the Tau wargear still state "in the shooting phase", then this is on a case by case basis. MCs can fire two weapon on overwatch, but Tau battlesuits cannot, Riptide excluded.

The Flying Monstrous Creature rules don't say shooting phase when it mentions shooting, which from what I have read of your argument would make it fine to fire both in Overwatch.

So if say a Hive Tyrant with 2 sets of Twin-Linked Brain Leach Devourers and wings was charged, are you saying that it could fire both of them, where as the same model but with out wings couldn't?

Page 31, doesn't say anything about special rule. It just says that 'Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a Model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.'

There is no mention of special rule, in fact the words special, and rule are not mentioned in this paragraph.

[daboarder]

And the specific rule which allows two jn the MC rules states only jn thw shooting phase

Advanved > basic

[DarkLink]

I haven't actually looked up any of the 7th ed rules for this, other than what's been posted.

[jenkatron]

Note that we have already established by the rules that Monstrous Creatures can fire more than one weapon in each phase. This is what is normal for them, and later on the rules even say word for word that firing two weapons is the norm for them.

I'm pretty satisfied at this point that all overwatch is one gun only. Thanks to everyone for the hearty debate!

Whilst I appreciate the length of yours stonehorse (and others') analyses, you are all stating / suggesting that it's 'NORMAL' for MC/Gunslinger etc to fire more than one weapon.. Like it's just standard that they can always do that. As overwatch is resolved as 'NORMAL' they are allowed to fire 1+. Makes sense unless you go read the specific entries under MC / Gunslinger / TFC Gunner ...

That logic is explicitly overruled if you read the specific 7th ed and codex entries for all those, where it is written in unambiguous wording that they can fire the additional weapon in the SHOOTING PHASE. Overwatch rule as you quote correctly, unambiguously states that is is a SHOOTING ATTACK IN THE ASSAULT PHASE.

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I also have a brief retort to your FMC argument, that a FMC specifically says he shoots two weapons as normal.

That entry is for SWOOPING monstrous creatures. A swooping MC cannot be assaulted so overwatch is never a consideration.

If he lands he is no longer a FMC, he works exactly as a normal MC and has none of the other rules associated with flying, why would he retain that one?!

[Charon]

If he lands he is no longer a FMC, he works exactly as a normal MC and has none of the other rules associated with flying, why would he retain that one?!

He is still a FMC, this does not change.
If he would become a MC he could not fly again once he landed as a MC cannot fly.
Also he retains his jink rule while landed.

[stonehorse]

I'm pretty satisfied at this point that all overwatch is one gun only. Thanks to everyone for the hearty debate!

Whilst I appreciate the length of yours stonehorse (and others') analyses, you are all stating / suggesting that it's 'NORMAL' for MC/Gunslinger etc to fire more than one weapon.. Like it's just standard that they can always do that. As overwatch is resolved as 'NORMAL' they are allowed to fire 1+. Makes sense unless you go read the specific entries under MC / Gunslinger / TFC Gunner ...

That logic is explicitly overruled if you read the specific 7th ed and codex entries for all those, where it is written in unambiguous wording that they can fire the additional weapon in the SHOOTING PHASE. Overwatch rule as you quote correctly, unambiguously states that is is a SHOOTING ATTACK IN THE ASSAULT PHASE.

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I also have a brief retort to your FMC argument, that a FMC specifically says he shoots two weapons as normal.

That entry is for SWOOPING monstrous creatures. A swooping MC cannot be assaulted so overwatch is never a consideration.

If he lands he is no longer a FMC, he works exactly as a normal MC and has none of the other rules associated with flying, why would he retain that one?!

We have to remember that GW rules are not written by a single person, but rather a collective. This can result in rules written in a style that is unique to the writer at time, their choice of words, their choice of sentence structure. This will undoubtedly vary from one writer to the next. Also many times GW have shown that when writing rules they are sometimes forgetful of the nuances of their own rules.

Case in point Lizardmen Army Book Tiktaq'to, a special character on a Flying creature who has a unique magic item that states it works on the unit of Terradons he joins, also he can give them scout. Apart from the main rule book says that units of flyers can not be joined by characters... no where in Tiktaq'to entry is there a rule to say otherwise.

GW aren't brilliant at rules writing for these reasons, too many people writing the rules, which creates errors from either a lack of communication when making rules, and the way that each person approaching writing the rules will have their own way of forming sentences, which can and sometimes do clash with what other writers have written. And again, when writing rules they due to be human are prone to forget the little nuances and caveats here and there, after all their rule books do tend to be hefty books.

This is why it is always best to approach GW rules with an open mindset, and look at what the intention is... until the FAQ comes out.

As for poor old Tiktaq'to, he's still waiting to join his fellow Terradon riders, poor bugger.

[DarkLink]

A good point, which, given the consistency with which GW uses "may fire two weapons in the shooting phase", only backs up the one gun on overwatch side of things. Almost every single instance, if not all instances, of a unit being able to fire multiple weapons is quite explicitly limited to the shooting phase. One random side note for a single particular unit that may or may not possibly contradict this is the one most likely to be the odd man out.

[stonehorse]

A good point, which, given the consistency with which GW uses "may fire two weapons in the shooting phase", only backs up the one gun on overwatch side of things. Almost every single instance, if not all instances, of a unit being able to fire multiple weapons is quite explicitly limited to the shooting phase. One random side note for a single particular unit that may or may not possibly contradict this is the one most likely to be the odd man out.

There is only one such instance where it says such, as I have shown previously there are more cases of it saying each phase than there are of it saying shooting phase. page 67 seventh paragraph. Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntary or otherwise

Again using the above Hive Tyrant scenario I gave above. It uses both the Monstrous Creature rules (page 67 seventh paragraph. Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntary or otherwise) , and also the rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures(Page 68 third paragraph.In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous Creatures have the Jink and Vector Strike special rule.).

Now if I am to use both, they both contradict each other, and this create an issue. One says shooting phase (page 67 seventh paragraph. Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntary or otherwise), and is the only such time this is mention in the book, while the other says normally. (Page 69 third paragraph, Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore fire upto two of their weapons normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don't run). Flying Monstrous Creatures can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.)

So this creates a scenario where they are both right, yet both wrong, as I have to apply both, yet can't. So creates a stale mate, however there is another place that mentions firing more than one weapon and it is as such. Page 31 last paragraph, Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a Model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase. This resolves the stalemate, as it doesn't mention shooting phase, but rather phase. And this doesn't mention anything about advanced rule verses basic rule, or special rule.

One more thing, and this is really pedantic of me, page 67 and Page 69 both use 'up to', however one spells it as up to, and the other as upto. You will see in all my above quotes I have quoted it as written from the book, to show this error (as I type this I am looking at a few annoying red underlines to show a spelling mistake), these sentences that contradict each other about the shooting, and use a different sentence structure, thus add more weight to the rules being written badly and/or by several writers who where not writing together and as such where not made aware of any little nuances created from their colleagues choice of sentence structure and words.