Flamers and Flyers

[Gir]

A few meters could mean 3 to 5 meters which is about 10 to 16 feet rounding. I thought space marines were 8 feet tall. And I bet when you flame a devilfish you hit the hull with the template when its on the base provided. Not a swing and a miss with the valkyrie. And how the hell is 3 dimensional abstract and 2D not??? We arent playing risk here. Warhammer is a 3D game. There is a problem I stumbled on and I am trying to find the best solution. You are just making up rules and saying I am wrong. reference these rules and I will shut up.

There's no rules saying I'm wrong either.

Warhammer is primarly a 2D game with an abstract 3rd dimension. The height of model on the stand is completely meaningless when it comes to template weapons. You simally place the template, if the template covers where the skimmer is (assuming the bases are on the same level), they all get hit.

But I have a hyperthetical for you: if someone with a flamer is standing on a hill that's the same height as a valkyrie, and they shot it with a flamer, would the flamer hit the guys underneath the valkyire?

[Paintraina]

So basically you are asking two different questions.

The first is essentially "Can a firing unit fire template weapons at a unit that is out of range of the template in order to hit intervening units?" The answer to this is Yes. Those guardsmen are cooked regardless of where that valk is. Realize that this leads to some interesting stuff. For instance, You can use the IG order "Bring it Down" on a unit with flamers. They take aim and fire at a Tank which is out of range, but there is an intervening unit of infantry. They still count as twinlinked against this infantry unit. Remember that the limiting factor is that you cant assault afterward. Your target was the tank.

The second question is "Are Template weapons able to effect Tanks if the template only has range to the "Shadow" of the tank, and not the physical hull" Looking at the relevant sections of the BRB doesn't really answer this definitively. I am inclined to say that the skimmer is hit even if the template can only reach its shadow, due to the diagram on pg 85 in the BRB. This picture gives us some insight on how to place templates, and is evidence for the idea that templates are infinitely high.

[thecactusman17]

As to your second question RE: intervening models and flamers, my gaming group came to this decision because we have so many players who rely on template weapons: Said weapons can be fired even if they won't hit the intended target, however they must be fired directly at the closest part of the target unit, or positioned to cover as much of the target as possible. So if you target a rhino with a disembarked squad in front of it, for example, then the flamer must cover as much of the rhino as possible or be pointed directly at the nearest point. Only then are intervening models counted for purposes of wounds. If you are targeting an enemy squad, then the flamer must hit as many members of the target squad as possible before intervening wounds are worked out. This prevents the "stand in back, shoot at enemy unit to your rear" abuse that could be caused by this ruling.

As for Valks/etc., the reason why they have to be counted as ground level is very straightforward: if they weren't, your opponent could declare "my valk/Raider/Devilfish/Wave Serpent is one level higher than my troops, your Vindicator/Leman Russ/small blast weapon will miss everything around it if it doesn't connect." This may technically be true from a modeling perspective, but it would be disastrous for gameplay purposes. Templates of any type, as shown in multiple sections of the 5th ed. rule book, are intended to be placed horizontally. They hit everything on the same terrain level, as shown in multiple sections of the BRB. You can choose to fire at different levels when desired, but you are always intended to fire with the template in a horizontal position.

[Cheeseburger!]

To answer your question Gir I would turn the template on its side and see if the unit next to the valk would get hit, at least thats how i prefer to play it.

I appreciate the feedback guys. I guess I'm outnumbered on this one. Giant flames from orbit will be landing on a table near you!

I still think I have a valid point though...

[Gir]

I appreciate the feedback guys. I guess I'm outnumbered on this one. Giant flames from orbit will be landing on a table near you!

I still think I have a valid point though...

You have a valid point with your way of thinking, but you're ignoring the concept of adstraction (How do your guys get out of the valkyrie if it's so high up?).

[MasterSlowPoke]

So basically you are asking two different questions.

The first is essentially "Can a firing unit fire template weapons at a unit that is out of range of the template in order to hit intervening units?" The answer to this is Yes.

This is wrong. If a weapon is out of range of the target it automatically misses everything.

[Paintraina]

prove it. The range section in the BRB says to refer to the Template section for how template weapons work. The template weapons rules targeting restrictions only state that you have to cover as many enemies in the target unit (or as much of the vehicle) as possible. That number of enemies in the target unit may be zero, but the flamer still fires.

[MasterSlowPoke]

Page 17, Check Range:

Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically – his shots simply do not reach.

Nothing on the Template section on page 29 overrides this. Your move.

[Paintraina]

The section you quoted goes on to say that template weapons don't work this way and have their own rules described in the template section.

Edit: ahh sorry, The section I am referring to is pg 27. Its easy to miss and is probably where the confusion stems from.

[MasterSlowPoke]

The Template rules tell you to use those rules instead of Rolling to Hit, step 3 of the Shooting Sequence. It makes no mention of step 2, Check Range, so you still use the standard rules for range checking.