Should I stay or should I go now? - The EU Referendum Thread

[CoffeeGrunt]

Migration may not be a concern to you. My home county is Norfolk. When wages amongst low paid workers are depressed by cheap foreign labour, where school class sizes go up disproportionately, same with doctors lists, same with dentists list, it hits harder than in urban areas. Its not racist to think so. I saw a well written piece today that pointed out its not the well paid professors, MPs, economists etc - who can afford private healthcare and whose kids may go to private schools - who need to be concerned about that. Certainly irrespective of result David Cameron and his lovely and incredibly wealthy missus will be OK - except for the small vote of no confidence coming his way.

With respect, I also live in Norfolk, and the primary problem is Norwich. It's so accessible that any retail business that sets up in Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft or wherever is competing with the City, because people can just pop on the Acle Straight and be there in a jiffy. It's killed the Town Center in GY, for example, but the declining British Tourist Industry already saw to that in both Lowie and GY.

Additionally, the sudden collapse of the offshore industry hasn't helped. It's the last thing GY has going for it. Do we hire a lot of foreign workers? About as many as we do native, and we're forced to advertise first to the native country, and any personnel we bring in from outside must be properly vetted, get a Visa, and we have to write up a report on why it must be this particular person. Often the answer is, "well how many kids graduate school in England and go into Acoustic Engineering?" Or marine biology, or anything like that? It's not our fault that the labour pool doesn't exist in the UK. We had to hire our Acoustic Analyst from outside the UK, because internally there just weren't many people who could program acoustic analysis programs in MatLab as we needed.

Much like our football, the problem is at the grassroots in that regard.

Growing up in GY, too, plenty of people in the middle class were happy to avoid work as long as possible, by going to college course after college course. The Sixth Form in Gorleston was very popular for this, because it's Full Time, so you can avoid work for years. The more vocational Yarmouth College is looked down upon because it exists to get people into a work-ready state, whereas all the Sixth Formers bum over to Uni for another few years.

And then they graduate with no experience or real skills to actually operate as part of a workforce. Uni grads are the worst candidates for us, because they fail to realise that their degrees ultimately don't mean much in practicality, and are more concerned with flaunting what they're learned than simply doing the work. They also lack the experience that is valuable to us.

Bleh, Norfolk also doesn't have much in it, to be fair. There's the farming, the dead fishing industry, the decaying tourist industry, and Norwich hoovering up all the retail, financial and administrative jobs.


1. To ensure that the only people in the business of making UK law and government policy, reside within those national borders, so they can be held to account by the citizens and laws of the people within those national borders.

2. Because unrestricted migration from the EU increases risk and outright threat to infrastructure (NHS, financial, housing, welfare) and national security - especially when the plan is for Turkey to join, and they have porous borders with Arabic countries. NB the FCO website actually states they have consular offices in Ankara and loads of smaller Turkish cities working towards them joining the EU.

3. Because EU countries have a proven track record of disregarding EU law to their advantage and our disadvantage. Examples: When British beef was declared safe post-mad cow disease, the French refused to import it in contravention of EU law. Spain ignores freedom of movement at Gibraltar borders and allows Algerciras to pump raw sewage in the vicinity of Gibraltar.

4. There are numerous examples of convicted criminals using the ECHR to avoid deportment. The latest I read about today in the DT.

5. Because I have seen repeated comments/interviews with EU MEPs who want greater integration. We cannot guarantee that in the future, who France/Germany sends to Strasbourg, won't work even harder for it, as per point 1.

6. Because doing so would allow us to focus on meaningful political and economic relationships elsewhere. I don't consider the threats of economic disruption to be an impediment - because take the German car industry. They import 20% of their goods here. They don't want their government or the EU to jeopardise that sort of market share in a fit of petulance.

7. Because of all the threats from remain supporters - I don't do relationships based on fear and coercion.

8. Because I like Europe and even some Europeans - I don't like the undemocratic byzantine EU.

9. Because the EU plan for finances is based on the Euro - 1-size doesn't fit all financially and the Euro is not as good a currency as the Pound. They have no financial credibility.

10. Because the poorer EU nations get disproportionately more money from the richer EU nations and I disagree with sending the money there.

11. I never want to bail out the PIGS countries.

There's probably more but thats scratching the surface.

1) But we elect MEPs, they're our citizens? How is that any less democratic when our own elected officials may veto anything not in our interest?

2) But Non-EU Immigration has always been higher (https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/). Additionally, we will still have EU immigration anyway, so it will have a moot effect on our borders. Besides, both attacks in the EU were committed by nationals of Belgium, and so the argument that immigration brings in terrorists is silly,

3) Those are fair points, but in both instances the European Court forced them to comply. Would the ban have been lifted without it? Would Gibraltar still be a sewage dump?

4) Can you cite this story, please? With respect, "I read it in the paper," doesn't carry much weight as proof.

5) They can work as hard as they want, but there will still be the Veto,

6) Except the US claims that Brexit could inflict damage to its economy (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/18/how-brexit-could-hurt-america/), and their Trade Representative has stated that Britain, (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/29/us-warns-britain-it-could-face-trade-barriers-if-it-leaves-eu) "would be subject to the same tariffs – and other trade-related measures – as China, or Brazil or India." America apparently works with the concept of building platforms for trade with countries, rather than dealing with them individually,

7) This applies to the Leave campaign. Both sides are a sham,

8) Never said you dislike Europe, but okay. Given that we democratically elect representative MEPs to represent us at European Parliament, please explain how it is less democratic than our own system of Elected MPs who sit in Parliament and pass laws, unless hypothetically a group of unelected peers vetoes it, or her Majesty does, (though she never exercises that power in practice,)

9) I'm not sufficiently versed in economics to really debate that point,

10) What is the issue with redistributing money to those who need it most. By your very wording, you disagree with giving more money to the poor than the rich?

11) What are PIGS?

[Kirsten]

those 11 points are either outright wrong, not relevant, or not going to change after a leave vote.

[Denzark]

CG - I will respond to those points once more, but then not to any comeback - not because I can't argue - but to avoid it becoming never ending to and fro.

On the subject of Norfolk/Norwich - for sure. I am west Norfolk, bordering on the Fens. I am not talking about your £60k+ specialists in the oil industry - I am on about minimum wage workers fruit (etc) picking in the fields bordering into Lincolnshire - which has similar problems around Boston - another port. When the RAF looked at basing options for Tornado aircraft, the MP local to RAF Marham successfully argued that that surrounding area was actually more deprived by the relevant metrics, than that of RAF Leuchars in poor part of Scotland.


1) But we elect MEPs, they're our citizens? How is that any less democratic when our own elected officials may veto anything not in our interest?

The successful passing of law in our favour depends on MEPs from outside the UK. Those are to whom I refer. The veto - I don't understand it to be infinite - nothing would get done - there are always ways around and getting 28 member states (or however many it is) to agree means compromise. Vice versa laws not in our favour. When Cameron tried to ensure Juncker didn't get in, he was basically told to hoop it.

2) But Non-EU Immigration has always been higher (https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/). Additionally, we will still have EU immigration anyway, so it will have a moot effect on our borders. Besides, both attacks in the EU were committed by nationals of Belgium, and so the argument that immigration brings in terrorists is silly,

The key to what I said is unrestricted immigration. I think it is freedom of movement increases the risks I mentioned. Immigration of itself does not bring in terrorists, true - but unrestricted immigration brings in a potentially endless number of people and therefore the risk of system failure - not spotting a terrorist - becomes higher. Similarly, increased numbers of terrorists means increased recruiting - a self licking lollipop.

3) Those are fair points, but in both instances the European Court forced them to comply. Would the ban have been lifted without it? Would Gibraltar still be a sewage dump?

Whilst the beef aspect was sorted eventually, Spain is still messing with the borders, pumping sewage and also won't sign the permissions agreed with multiple other EU contries that recognise the airport at Gibraltar as its own entity, causing flight delays and problems.

4) Can you cite this story, please? With respect, "I read it in the paper," doesn't carry much weight as proof.

I can't find yesterday's example as the DT recently changed its format and there is no search function. A quick google search revealed this from may, which is a similar case: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/07/judges-stop-theresa-may-deporting-terror-suspects/

5) They can work as hard as they want, but there will still be the Veto,

Its still a threat and I don't think the veto is the shining guardian of all our interests. They repeatedly try and negotitate around the veto - look at trying to make us take on board extra refugees, in breach of the Dublin agreement

6) Except the US claims that Brexit could inflict damage to its economy (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/18/how-brexit-could-hurt-america/), and their Trade Representative has stated that Britain, (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/29/us-warns-britain-it-could-face-trade-barriers-if-it-leaves-eu) "would be subject to the same tariffs – and other trade-related measures – as China, or Brazil or India." America apparently works with the concept of building platforms for trade with countries, rather than dealing with them individually,

If people want something, they'll compromise. It will take time and cause financial pain. I think its worth it.

7) This applies to the Leave campaign. Both sides are a sham,

Agreed neither have covered themselves in glory.

8) Never said you dislike Europe, but okay. Given that we democratically elect representative MEPs to represent us at European Parliament, please explain how it is less democratic than our own system of Elected MPs who sit in Parliament and pass laws, unless hypothetically a group of unelected peers vetoes it, or her Majesty does, (though she never exercises that power in practice,)

As per point 1. All of the UK parliament is voted for by UK voters, who have the same national interests, problems, issues, taxes that are not devolved etc. This is not the case for the EU. We do healthcare different, we do a lot different to the 27 other members so their perspectives and the interests of the people they vote for is different - but we have absoluteley no recourse against them.

9) I'm not sufficiently versed in economics to really debate that point,

Its my limited understanding for sure.

10) What is the issue with redistributing money to those who need it most. By your very wording, you disagree with giving more money to the poor than the rich?

This will be a point at which you can feel free to label me a *******/racist/whatever. Yes the poor need to have more help from the state and pay less tax than the rich. But just because Albania/Romania/Bulgaria etc - other Eastern Bloc countries - were part of the communist Russian empire of subjugated countries - I see absolutely no reason why money from our country, should be diverted to bring theirs up to european standards. In particualr because we have masses of areas of poverty and a failing NHS that the money should be spent on - our tribe first, then others. If we had no child poverty, a standard of living of Singapore and a massive economy in the black - then maybe.

11) What are PIGS?

Portugal Italy Greece Spain. Their way of doing business and planning the economy is their own downfall, and the propping done by the ECB to Greece, will be repeated if/when Spain etc goes down the pan. Its self inflicted - hence Germany wanting to override the sovereign right of Greece to set monetary policy.

- - - Updated - - -

Kirsten, as I'm sure you wanted to keep to rational debate rather than add to an admittedly long list of self-concerned, un-empathic me centric comments from yourself, I thought I'd give you a free assist and fix this for you.


those 11 points are either outright wrong in my opinion, not relevant to me personally on my little island in the Irish Sea, or probably not going to change after a leave vote when I make an estimate considering the geopolitical and diplomatic grand strategy of whatever government takes forward the country afterwards (which I fully concede I have no way of judging at the moment). .

[40kGamer]

Considering the whole world is gradually becoming more globalised, and the initial idea of the European Union was to tie the continent together so that they would never kick off yet another world spanning war, I'm finding the vigorous objection to integration weird from an outsider's perspective. I thought the point was to unite into a global superpower, since the planet has progressed to the point that no individual nation within the Eurozone has a hope of regaining that position due to sheer lack of people and size and resources. Individual European nations are tinsy tiny little things that can be driven across in a day, and when european nations were superpowers they were huge globe-spanning things with the actual bit in Europe-proper just being the capital.

I mean, Britain's only got two shots at returning to power, and that's as part of Europe or by somehow convincing the Commonwealth to integrate more tightly. And given both Australia and New Zealand are making increasingly republican noises, that's not going to happen. (No idea on Canada. Nobody is suicidal enough to suggest that to India. Any other large players I'm missing?)


Britain could always reintegrate with the colonies. We obviously have reasonable people and politicians here... ;)

Silliness aside I also thought the whole point of the EU was to create a multinational economic power with worldwide influence.

[Kirsten]

it is, and it works by and large. far from perfect, and needs continuous improvement. but it is better than flying solo.

[40kGamer]

It seems to work from this side of the pond but I imagine it's different living with the day to day of things. It actually makes me think of another baby step toward a single world government.

[Kirsten]

don't worry, once I am in charge of the world it will run much more smoothly

[Psychosplodge]

don't worry, once I am in charge of the world it will run much more smoothly

But you can't run the world, that's my plan!


So polling station was busier than I've seen it, glad I didn't leave it till after work. Didn't see anyone under thirty there though.

[Mr Mystery]

Have to vote this evening. Coach pick up is at 6:15 in the morning (yes. Five days a week)

May have to hit GW first, then walk down the hill and vote, as I may be on the second coach home.

But traffic this morning made me realise what we really need a referendum on - the banning of parents swarming the roads at the slightest hint of rain, because presumably their 'little darlings' are soluble.

[Psychosplodge]

Everytime they ban them near a school they literally park as close as they can in ridiculous places instead.

[grimmas]

Have to vote this evening. Coach pick up is at 6:15 in the morning (yes. Five days a week)

May have to hit GW first, then walk down the hill and vote, as I may be on the second coach home.

But traffic this morning made me realise what we really need a referendum on - the banning of parents swarming the roads at the slightest hint of rain, because presumably their 'little darlings' are soluble.

Nice to see you're hitting the GW first I approve.

I'm with you on the school traffic, I live in Essex so I'm sure you can imagine the number of 4x4s it brings out just to deliver a single child in each to school.

[Mr Mystery]

Original plan was home, vote, GW, drop off Reaver to it's owner.

But, the second coach doesn't drop me near home, so I have to get off in town anyways - might as well tackle GW there and then.

In for sprays and brushes, and perhaps Stormcast Silver and the 'gloss washes', seeing as I'm painting a lot of metal. And just maybe the Getting Started Mechanicus set, because I wouldn't mind having spare Skitarii so I can field squads with special weapons if I need to.

[grimmas]

Those get started boxes are just so tempting.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. Then I can pick up another couple later - the Techpriests? I may sell those on to be honest, as I've already got two, but then have flexible choice of models is never a bad thing.

Then I'd have me three Onager's, which will likely be AA, on account the Apocalypse game really showed I need AA!

[grimmas]

Just voted and had a democratic experience. It actually felt like it was important for a change, of course having voted in 5 general elections and only picking the winning side once and that was a coalition may have something to do with my somewhat jaded view.

[Psychosplodge]

"safe" labour seat here. Voting has always felt somewhat of a joke.

[Denzark]

Respect to whoever does actually vote, irrespective of what you vote.

[Gotthammer]

Scottish Grindr poll predictions (http://machotrouts.tumblr.com/post/146007685930/remaindr):

http://65.media.tumblr.com/6933dae933859ab71dc72f622cb4e269/tumblr_inline_o8r5f7gNdq1qaw62i_500.jpg

http://65.media.tumblr.com/2c26b8e7b162b9c77586da1eb85cab7e/tumblr_inline_o8r5fgrXeb1qaw62i_500.jpg

http://67.media.tumblr.com/00c30a6b5861eae9eed9744760496c46/tumblr_inline_o8r5f2kkoN1qaw62i_500.jpg


I was only able to question 327 users before Grindr moderators intervened. 151 users left some kind of response. Of these, 108 settled on a yes or no answer.

81.48% (88) would like to REMAIN in the European Union.
18.52% (20) would like to EXIT the European Union.

Other responses can be divided as follows:
10 Undecided
8 Don’t care
8 Miscellaneous evasion
6 None of my business
3 Too bewildered to answer
3 Too horny to engage politically
3 Turned out to be a spambot
2 Incomprehensible
(This leaves 38 users who presumably blocked me by the time the results were counted. Any responses they may have given are not counted here.)

In conclusion, Scottish Grindr users are overwhelmingly against leaving the European Union. With it looking increasingly doubtful that such a comfortable victory for remainers will be reflected in the broader United Kingdom’s vote in the upcoming referendum, Grindr may have to consider declaring itself an independent nation to remain in the EU.

It is also worth noting that previous polls of Scottish Grindr were very accurate for the independence referendum and general election.

[Psychosplodge]

I would expect a Scottish only poll to be skewed on the basis the SNP have set up this idea of independence on the grounds of an EU split though.
I would expect even among the No independence voters there will be a fifty/fifty split like the rest of the UK so you would expect Scotland to poll something like 75%+ remain?

[Mr Mystery]

Sounds about right - but then 'No' to Scottish Independence is a damned fined reason to vote Remain in the EU.....

As I posted on my FB - when there's a Remain outcome (I'm that confident :p) does anyone else reckon Nigel Farage will implode like the Witch King did when he got stabbed in the face off Eowyn following his fatal semantic error?

[Psychosplodge]

No, but the labour party might repeat it's Scottish success in England if their traditional heartlands vote leave.

[Haighus]

I have cast my vote. It was a proxy vote that me mum was gonna put in for me but I've ended up being home and able to do the ballot myself. Just waiting for the result now.

[Psychosplodge]

They expect to have a decent idea about 4-5am don't they?

[Haighus]

They expect to have a decent idea about 4-5am don't they?

I'll probs just about be in bed by then :p

Saying that, I've had 4 hours sleep, I should be in bed now... :D

[Mr Mystery]

Right then. 22:02 as I type, so Poll doors are closed, with just people who were through the door before 22:00 to vote.

Betting Odds have changed in favour of Remain consistently today, last it was 1-9 Remain, 11-2 Leave.

So I'm fairly confident we'll be staying in Europe.

But even those who voted Leave - is anyone else looking forward to watching Gove and BoJo sink Farage's political career with a quick game of 'pin the blame on the racist'?

[Kirsten]

the ideal result is a vote to remain, and the conservatives imploding in accusations and mistrust

[Mr Mystery]

I'd agree with that.

But, most importantly? All signs point to a record turnout.

I just hope it's carried across into future elections.

[Kirsten]

Gibraltar declared, 84% turnout, overwhelmingly remain, unsurprisingly.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

the ideal result is a vote to remain, and the conservatives imploding in accusations and mistrust

I'd hope the imploding would be as litteral as a black-hole letterbox.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis

at current Remain is 48% and leave is 52%

[daboarder]

man you guys are so frakked.

look at that pound go

[Mr Mystery]

Oh dear.

There goes the economy, the currency, jobs and indeed common sense.

Though for those in the colonies...

1. Got any spare rooms?
2. Enjoy your cheap Forgeworld.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/h8cCj4Z2KeYaQ/200_s.gif

Pound in free fall, FTSE down 19%.

Early days of course due to immediate market jitters....but man. It had been kind of nice having a stable economy.

For once, I feel sorry for people who bought houses recently. 20% drop is possibly an underestimate....remember, the PPI scandal, whilst literally my bread and butter, has seen tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of home owners cancel any and all repayment insurances they had protecting their home. When mass redundancies start, that's a lot of home owners with their arse in the breeze and no way of maintaining their repayments.....expect repossession to hit a stupid level.

[Kirsten]

I didn't think the uk would actually be this stupid

[Psychosplodge]

I told you the working classes were pissed at the labour party taking them for granted.
What we need now though is the News to stop talking the economy into a recession, especially while it gets over its initial jitters.

Re the scotland/northern ireland question, it's both the nationalist parties trying to make political capital. Neither are anywhere near the 75% needed for it to discount the pro-eu nationalists using it for for their own ends.



https://66.media.tumblr.com/b4b25dc21e9a1e736680e4f934175851/tumblr_o3pzw3pLxA1rgygrxo1_500.gif
https://66.media.tumblr.com/523a01ba3f2ac4f0930bcbc7dd2cf0a9/tumblr_o3pzw3pLxA1rgygrxo2_500.gif


I even had my losing gif picked out...

[Cutter]

I didn't think the uk would actually be this stupid

Really? If the referendum showed us anything it's the the k isn't that u.

[grimmas]

You* cannot choose just to ignore the issue of the majority of voters by dismissing them as stupid or some sort of ism. People across England have been discontent for a long time. A campaign based on name calling and threats was never going to work.

Cameron is stepping down. May be not the time but it has raised a smirk with me.

*in the general sense not anyone specifically.

[Kirsten]

It is a victory for small minded pettiness and racism. We have been ****ed because idiots didn't want to look at the facts. I hope everyone enjoyed the last recession

[grimmas]

People don't care about "facts" when their own life experiences are to the contrary. They aren't happy dismissing it out of hand has not worked. May be leftsplaining is a thing. Gotta keep the plebs happy, the Romans knew that 2000 years ago (of course don't call them Plebs their faces though that won't work all).

[Kirsten]

I just can't believe it. I feel sick

[Psychosplodge]

I just can't believe it. I feel sick

Really?
If it was going to cause the end of the world they wouldn't have allowed us to have a vote.

[Kirsten]

We knew it would be disastrous, and it is proving so. Governments around the world are holding crisis talks. Britain has been ruined by utter ****wits

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

All we need now is UKIP to get in power and the apocalypse can begin and we can finally summon the great old ones back to our reality in the resulting ****storm!

IA IA FHTAGN YOG SOTHOTH!!

[Kirsten]

An hour after the results were announced Farage admits the NHS spending promise was a lie

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/

[Psychosplodge]

All we need now is UKIP to get in power and the apocalypse can begin and we can finally summon the great old ones back to our reality in the resulting ****storm!

IA IA FHTAGN YOG SOTHOTH!!

Never gonna happen. In fact they've pretty much sealed their doom. They literally have no reason to exist anymore right?


An hour after the results were announced Farage admits the NHS spending promise was a lie

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/

Anybody with half a brain knew farage wasn't in any position to deliver anything as he isn't in government.

[Kirsten]

It isn't about him, it is the fact that they have already admitted the cornerstone of their campaign was a lie

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Dude I read the necronomicon, I've seen the prophecies, why else do you think I'im insane ;)

[Psychosplodge]

And world war three should be starting anytime now right? Both sides threw so much **** at each other people kicked the politicians instead.

- - - Updated - - -


Dude I read the necronomicon, I've seen the prophecies, why else do you think I'im insane ;)

lols

[Al Shut]

Farage was never and most likely will never be in a position to spend that money anyway, is he? was he? will he? what tense do I use?


edit- Why am I typing so slow?

[grimmas]

We knew it would be disastrous, and it is proving so. Governments around the world are holding crisis talks. Britain has been ruined by utter ****wits

May be, may be not, welcome to democracy, the ****wits get a say.

Farrage has quite literally talked himself out of a job.

[Kirsten]

Who knows now, he might do. The UK has voted for racism

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I don't trust the government as a whole, the lot of them are a bunch of sociopaths, narcissists and psychos in my eyes. I'd rather be ruled by skynet at this point. At least id get an audience for my music if that occured.

[Al Shut]

Who knows now, he might do. The UK has voted for racism

No way, with the EU issue done and of the table I'd say the moor has done his work.

[Kirsten]

It will only get worse now.

[Mr Mystery]

July 4 - Independence Day in the USA.

June 23 - UK enjoys 'A Day at the Racists'

[Kirsten]

'The last **** you of the baby boomers' young people voted overwhelmingly to stay, elderly baby boomers who wont be around to see the damage they have done have burned the final bridges behind them.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

They took away free Uni, because they didn't want to pay for it. And repeatedly tell us 'there's no such thing as a free lunch, unless you're a baby boomer, in which case you totes get to have your cake and eat it'.

My retirement age keeps on going up - currently 67, could be having to work into my 70's, because we can't possibly ask Pensioners to suffer from the cuts they largely voted for.

House ownership? HAhahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha NO. Forget it. Houses are now a speculative commodity, not somewhere to anchor oneself.

[Psychosplodge]

Nah George promised us they'd be down 20% by the weekend.

- - - Updated - - -

The hysterical reaction on social media is genuinely amazing me.
It also seems telling it's largely confined to those generally educated entirely under new labour.

[Mr Mystery]

If that happens, expect no mortgages to be available.

[Psychosplodge]

Sounds about right *sigh* I just wanted a house.

[Kirsten]

No chance of that now with the economy in free fall and unemployment about to soar

[Psychosplodge]

Actually it might up my chances. We get more work as **** gets worse.

[grimmas]

Nah George promised us they'd be down 20% by the weekend.

- - - Updated - - -

The hysterical reaction on social media is genuinely amazing me.
It also seems telling it's largely confined to those generally educated entirely under new labour.

Self fulfilling prophecy. We've not even left yet but hell lets overreact and make sure we can say "I told you so"

[Denzark]

Hopefully people will stop being histrionic and take a chill pill. To not move forward with some unity would be more destructive. Had we voted remain, the call for unity would have been put to leave so I hope the remainers try and climb back up the moral high ground lost when Osborn threatened tax rises and Cameron threatened pensions.

On the UK politics page, we bash the bankers and the people who speculate on stocks and shares. We complain about the UK being London centric. Its these people that have been hardest hit economically and now we're up in arms?

WTF.

Comments like Kirsten's 'The UK has voted for racism' is exactly why working class voters in Labour heartlands have driven this - they're fed up people telling them how to think and branding their thoughts as a negative.

Today is my 37th birthday and to say I'm well chuffed is an understatement.

[Kirsten]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/24/european-far-right-hails-britains-brexit-vote-marine-le-pen?CMP=fb_gu

Well done Britain

[Mr Mystery]

You.....you have seen the impact this has had, yeah? Only hours in.

Thankfully, the industry I'm in my job should be safe. Complaints to banks tend to rise when there's financial turmoil.

But for others? Who knows. Things are more likely to go from bad to worse than to improve any time soon.

Of course, if this does eventually lead to the dissolution of the EU as we know it, I suspect we'll see it come back together in some form.

[Psychosplodge]

http://img03.deviantart.net/1571/i/2011/288/4/2/a_lonely_space_marine_birthday_by_disarrayart-d4cxu3g.png

Happy Birthday 'Zark.

It's not like the labour party weren't warned by some of their own MPs.

[Denzark]

Cheers 'Splodge.

It is a fact that in some areas of the country, Police Forces see crime stats go down, whilst the citizens within that force area, feel ever more vulnerable and at risk of crime.

What is the disconnect between officialdom and getting people to actually FEEL instinctively better in their heads?

This for me is exactly why Leave has come through - all the facts and figures are irrelevant when you are genuinely feeling disaffected, disenfranchised and pissed with a political elite, safe in their Islington suburbs, who try and write off your fears as 'irrelevant' or even worse, a prejudice such as 'racism'.

[grimmas]

Cheers 'Splodge.

It is a fact that in some areas of the country, Police Forces see crime stats go down, whilst the citizens within that force area, feel ever more vulnerable and at risk of crime.

What is the disconnect between officialdom and getting people to actually FEEL instinctively better in their heads?

This for me is exactly why Leave has come through - all the facts and figures are irrelevant when you are genuinely feeling disaffected, disenfranchised and pissed with a political elite, safe in their Islington suburbs, who try and write off your fears as 'irrelevant' or even worse, a prejudice such as 'racism'.

Yes.

And happy birthday

[Mr Mystery]

I don't know if it's a comedy or a tragedy that they genuinely think leaving the EU is in any way, shape or form going to make a positive difference to their lives...

[Psychosplodge]

One less layer of parasitic politicians ?

[Kirsten]

I don't know if it's a comedy or a tragedy that they genuinely think leaving the EU is in any way, shape or form going to make a positive difference to their lives...

The triumph of ignorance, racism, and the far right. The economy is already reeling. It will get even worse once the UK actually leaves

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

And now the Right can't blame Europe, guess it back to good old 'blame the poor, especially those who are poor because we totally deliberately devastated their industries then left them to rot'.

Fools.

[Psychosplodge]

The economy is basically as sound as it ever is. The speculators are reeling cause they all bet on remain.
50% is confidence, so what we really need is not to talk ourselves into a worse dip than we've already gone.

[Denzark]

The triumph of ignorance, racism, and the far right.

So certain. You display your own prejudice on your sleeve with no sense of irony about either doing so, or that attitudes like yours have brought about this result.

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The economy is basically as sound as it ever is. The speculators are reeling cause they all bet on remain.
50% is confidence, so what we really need is not to talk ourselves into a worse dip than we've already gone.

+1 - emminently sensible.

[Kirsten]

Yup.

And now the Right can't blame Europe, guess it back to good old 'blame the poor, especially those who are poor because we totally deliberately devastated their industries then left them to rot'.

Fools.

Yup, no matter that they brought it on themselves with this ****, the poor will suffer and the far right will grow, still blaming Europe and migrants for the inevitable crash

[Mr Mystery]

It could all work out - but not with the Tories still in power.

It could all work out - but there's pain to come.

It could all work out - but what do we have to bargain with to get even vaguely favourable trade deals?

It could all work out - but how long is it going to take>

[Psychosplodge]

@Al Shut, what's the view from the other side looking like this morning?

[Haighus]

Well, I guess the irony now is we are about to spend probably the next 10 years or so having almost all our laws and legislation re-written by unelected bureaucrats... in Whitehall.

Gonna be a good time to have an expensive lawyer for the next few decades.

[Denzark]

Haighus - do you mean the civil service? The UK system is that we elect a government who set policy, but the CS enact that policy, giving impartial and SME advice in their respective departments.

So yes, they are indeed unelected and indeed bureaucrats -but they represent how British parliamentary democracy works.

They are not all lawyers, but some of them have a hand in laws - based on policy of those elected.

Not to be compared with the mandate free EU system.

[Haighus]

I do, but they are going to have to review pretty much the entirety of British law post-divorce, and re-write it to close the gaps left by EU law no longer being legally binding. The sheer quantity means that there will be parliamentary oversight of only the tiniest fraction of the laws being modified, because it is far beyond the capacity of both houses to scrutinise such a huge amount of law in a decade. This means that pretty much our entire law structure is going to be modified without parliamentary oversight.

The lawyers comment was more in reference to the likelihood of all manner of loopholes being formed by the rush to get a working set of laws, so anyone with good lawyers will probably be able to exploit a lot more loopholes over the next few decades because this massive legal overhaul is almost certainly going to have lots of errors in it overall.

[Psychosplodge]

Isn't English law mostly set by case law?

[Haighus]

Good point, I should mention that this is the other chunk of law, not the case law bit. Legislation basically.

[Gotthammer]

This for me is exactly why Leave has come through - all the facts and figures are irrelevant when you are genuinely feeling disaffected, disenfranchised and pissed with a political elite, safe in their Islington suburbs, who try and write off your fears as 'irrelevant' or even worse, a prejudice such as 'racism'.

Whilst I don't discount that massive dissatisfaction with politics and politicians exists (I know I am), or that it 100% needs to be addressed, ignoring the facts and figures seems, well, idiotic.

Like if that really was the motivation behind the leave vote it's looking, as an outsider, like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Or rather cutting off your nose to spite someone else's face.

Basically this:

https://67.media.tumblr.com/3eb7958e698b2dd26265af4cf9a7346c/tumblr_o99khx5xaM1st5prpo1_540.jpg

[CoffeeGrunt]

Case law relies on legislation to exist, though. The government will likely pull in a load of lawyers to look at filling gaps, in the same manner they hire hackers to improve national cybersecurity. Get them nitpicking and work it all out.

Now, the big question is how long it'll take before all the loopholes are solved. We'll probably do it in two years, at massive cost. It'll require a big temporary uptake in personnel to manage the rewriting of the justice system which will be perfect fodder for the opposition to roll in and accuse the current power of, "wasting money on Westminster bureaucracy," come the next election.

Personally, I managed to vote Remain, although it was p*ssing in the wind in my town, and I'm not sure it even got counted because the local council f*cked up every aspect of my vote. Took about two hours to get it all sorted, felt pretty futile.

That said, it's not going to be hell-on-Earth, but I don't see our country suddenly becoming a Utopia. Truth is that it'll probably settle somewhere in the middle, as it is now. Industries will collapse, others might rise. Some markets become worthless, others grow. The Pound is tanking but that's likely just a knee-jerk reaction that might recover over time. Hopefully. It doesn't do anything to accuse 17 million people of being racists, as there were legitimate concerns with regards to the EU.

Things could work out, to be fair. It just won't be for a while, and it'll be awkward to manage.

Personally, my main issue is that Leave has ultimately started saying they're effectively going to reform our deal with the EU. They're been on 'telly stating that the plan is currently to stay in the Single Market, accept the Free Movement of Labourers - not people - and also still pay a lower rate, which feels like it defeats the purpose of leaving as we'll still be bringing EU personnel in. Heck, it just means that people who want to move over will be brought in via front companies, the ol' fashioned way.

That, and those that voted hardest to Leave are those who'll live with the consequences for the shortest time if things to go belly-up (http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/how-old-people-have-screwed-over-the-younger-generationin-three-charts--W1AA_n4nEb). It might be bluster and ultimately things settle into being pretty much what they are now, in which case the whole endeavour was moot, but judging by the current Nationalist streak sweeping the nation and the very strong divide in voting by region, we might well see the disassembly of the UK.

There's much that remains to be seen, and I'm cautiously-optimistic as ever. I don't find out what repercussions it may have on my job until Monday, so might next post may or may not be sent from the line at the Job Center.

[Kirsten]

yup, all this 'dissatisfaction' stuff is irrelevant. whatever you think about politicians, it was very clear that leaving the EU was a terrible idea. all manner of independent organisations warned it was a terrible idea. but people voted for it any out of ignorance, racism, or spite. utter madness. and an appalling disenfranchisement of the young, who voted overwhelmingly to stay, but are now bound by the voting of old people who reaped all the rewards of EU membership and wont be affected by leaving. sickening.

[Psychosplodge]

Most of the young appear to think it means they can't have their two weeks getting hammered in magaluf.

They'd be better raiding the voting age to 25.

[Kirsten]

copied from Facebook:

So let's take stock:
1. Nigel Farage starts the morning by retracting the £350 million claim
2. Daniel Hannan retracts the claim that leaving EU will reduce immigration
3. £100 billion wiped off the pensions, ISAs etc. invested in the FTSE
4. The pound suffers the largest currency depreciation of any currency ever
5. The Prime Minister resigns without mapping out a plan for implementing the results of the referendum
If I were a Leave voter, I would not be celebrating this morning. Sure, things might stabilise in time, but the immediate aftermath of the vote is admission that they'd been lied to & financial meltdown on a scale even pessimists did not predict. We Remainers may be in despair, but the Leavers ought to be ****ing livid.
6. The biggest share price losses were Wimpy Taylor & Barclay Homes, at ~40%, which means the markets are expecting a housing crash
7. Apparently the pound's value dropping so much means that the UK is no longer the 5th largest economy in the world - in a nicely symbolic move, we've been overtaken by France

[Psychosplodge]

Aren't the french currently doing their best impression of British Leyland?

[Haighus]

Most of the young appear to think it means they can't have their two weeks getting hammered in magaluf.

They'd be better raiding the voting age to 25.
This proper pisses me off, you'd take my vote away from me? 25? Seriously? People are allowed to make life-or-death decisions about patients as doctors before that age, but you think that voting is too much? You can start a family, make all the choices about your life above 18, no way should voting be taken away from that; you would have the situation that people have no influence on the politics dictating their situation, even though these people are starting families and careers and independent lives.

[Cutter]

Aren't the french currently doing their best impression of British Leyland?

I'd be amazed if the majority of the audience got that reference.

[Kirsten]

it has nothing to do with holidays. young people are pro EU because it is the only sensible course of action, because they are more tolerant, more united, than the generations before them. **** that magaluf voting age bull****.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Most of the young appear to think it means they can't have their two weeks getting hammered in magaluf.

They'd be better raiding the voting age to 25.

A pretty disingenuous assertion and a stupid reason to take away voting rights, mon ami. I'm 22, my friends are around the same age and we did a lot of research to try and work out the best route.

By the same token, I'd love to say that all the young Leave voters are probably Britain First chav biffers while the older Leave voters are just that old man who's been grumbling about "P*kis" since the 70s and just wants less brown people in the UK. Both probably chant, "They're ain't no Black in the Union Jack."

But hey, I know the above is a clear minority of the actual voters, and thus I have genuinely tried to understand Leave and evade making such stupid ad hominem insults...

[Mr Mystery]

Better to take away the vote from Retirees.

Not paying into the country? Then why should you have a say, especially when any time you do have your say, it's to yet again that we can't afford something you benefitted from.

[Haighus]

A pretty disingenuous assertion and a stupid reason to take away voting rights, mon ami. I'm 22, my friends are around the same age and we did a lot of research to try and work out the best route.

By the same token, I'd love to say that all the young Leave voters are probably Britain First chav biffers while the older Leave voters are just that old man who's been grumbling about "P*kis" since the 70s and just wants less brown people in the UK. Both probably chant, "They're ain't no Black in the Union Jack."

But hey, I personally have genuinely tried to understand Leave and evade making such stupid ad hominem insults...

Agreed, I'm 21, and my friends are in a similar situation, did research, had debates about this. No one was saying that the EU was perfect, just that it was a benefit overall. But we are the ones who are gonna live with this for longest (apart from the people who were too young to vote at all).

[Kirsten]

from the FT

18790

[Psychosplodge]

Don't forget when most people originally started voting at 18 they'd been working for three or four years as an apprentice not about to go sit with their thumb up their arse at uni for three or four years.

No it's only watching the complete hysterical meltdown on social media that even made the thought cross my mind Haighus. I mean ffs theres people wanting to keep voting till they get the answer they want. We had a vote, one person, one vote across the entire country. What more do they want?

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A pretty disingenuous assertion and a stupid reason to take away voting rights, mon ami. I'm 22, my friends are around the same age and we did a lot of research to try and work out the best route.

By the same token, I'd love to say that all the young Leave voters are probably Britain First chav biffers while the older Leave voters are just that old man who's been grumbling about "P*kis" since the 70s and just wants less brown people in the UK. Both probably chant, "They're ain't no Black in the Union Jack."

But hey, I know the above is a clear minority of the actual voters, and thus I have genuinely tried to understand Leave and evade making such stupid ad hominem insults...

You're right I took it to the extreme. I just honestly am shocked at what I've watched unfold all morning.

[Kirsten]

hysterical meltdown? Britain has taken leave of its' senses and voted for isolationism, bigotry, spite. it is a victory of anti-intellectualism, pro far-right, small minded ignorance. people have every right to be angry.

[Psychosplodge]

It's voted to be able to make its own choices, nothing more, nothing less.

[eldargal]

Well, we've established that we British hate migrants more than we like having a respectable standard of living so that's splendid. Insanity, complete, utter insanity.

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hysterical meltdown? Britain has taken leave of its' senses and voted for isolationism, bigotry, spite. it is a victory of anti-intellectualism, pro far-right, small minded ignorance. people have every right to be angry.

This

[CoffeeGrunt]

Don't forget when most people originally started voting at 18 they'd been working for three or four years as an apprentice not about to go sit with their thumb up their arse at uni for three or four years.

The anti-intellectualism on the Leave side is what worries me more than anything. It's been about ignoring experts, ignoring the opinions of anyone educated in the subject. Even now you're taking the stance that the opinion of someone in University is lower than that of someone with an apprenticeship?

[eldargal]

It's voted to be able to make its own choices, nothing more, nothing less.

No it didn't, it voted anti-EU because right wing ****bags have convinced people that migration is an issue when it isn't, and that the EU is to blame when it wasn't, and that all their problems will magical disappear if we leave the EU. The Leave campaign is complete bull**** on a foundation of xenophobia. Nothing will change.

[Psychosplodge]

I'm taking the stance that they're possibly not as mature at 18 now as they used to be?

unless you're doing an -ology Ba with about three hours a week contact time then yes I'm taking it as you put it :D

tbh CG its I've had about three hours sleep and am not at my most eloquent right now(not that its much better at the best of times)
It made sense in my head :rolleyes:

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Nothing will change.

Apart from one less layer of politicians.

I mean I'm still up for running things but no doubt people would sulk.

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No actually thinking about it I think it voted Anti-EU because what 80% of politicians backed in and the electorate felt ignored and saw it as the opportunity to give the politicians a kick

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'm taking the stance that they're possibly not as mature at 18 now as they used to be?

unless you're doing an -ology Ba with about three hours a week contact time then yes I'm taking it as you put it :D

tbh CG its I've had about three hours sleep and am not at my most eloquent right now(not that its much better at the best of times)
It made sense in my head :rolleyes:

Fair dues. I avoided Uni, but I don't aim to think that I know more about a subject than someone who has put years of their life into studying it. However, that sort of thing has happened on a nationwide scale and the vote came down to gut feeling and misinformation in the end. It's a pity we didn't get a more honest referendum, but it is what it is.

[Psychosplodge]

We got the referendum the campaigns ran.

Honest politicians? you don't want much do you?

[eldargal]

Actually Remain were fairly honest, they were just ineffective. Though we can't just blame the campaign, the fact is the British have become increasingly petty, nasty and racist in the past decade, largely egged on by dogwhistling Tories, BNP and UKIP. We like to mock Trump and his popularity in America but we've just voted for our Trump effectively. I am genuinely concerned about what the right wing filth will do when they realise nothing is changing because the EU was nothing more than a scapegoat. My live in chum is of Indian descent, despite her, her parents, and her grandparents and most of her great grand parents all being born here and she has had people yell things at her during this campaign, telling her she will be sent 'home' and much more vile stuff. No those people have won and its ****ing terrifying.

[Psychosplodge]

Down south sounds scary.

[eldargal]

It happens when she visits family in London too, its a national trend. Then you have the Jewish population up and leaving because of rampant anti-semitism which has gone largely unreported and unchecked, and the lies about migrants in general, this place is a ****ing mess.

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Best case scenario here is the economy tanks, people wake the **** up and parliament refuses to ratify the leave vote and we can get back to being a civilised ****ing country.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Nobody addressed immigration with actual facts. Like how we need migrants because we're a retiree heavy populace.

Instead Leave played up to Xenophobia, or at least did nothing to challenge that argument.

I count myself lucky I'm a white male, because the chances of a bigot having a pop at me are virtually nil, unless I say something and they pick up on my accent. I genuinely fear for many of my colleagues.

[eldargal]

Yup. We accept 330,000 migrants a year. That is 80,000 more than Canada (pop.35mil vs our 65) a year, and 130,000 more than Australia (pop. 25mil). We need those migrants for skills and because of a low birthright, and only about a quarter come from European countries (ignoring how many British go the other way), the rest come from non-EU countries. We don't take too many by any reasonable standard, and all research says that migrants have a net positive impact to the economy, creating jobs and revenue.

[Kirsten]

Actually Remain were fairly honest, they were just ineffective. Though we can't just blame the campaign, the fact is the British have become increasingly petty, nasty and racist in the past decade, largely egged on by dogwhistling Tories, BNP and UKIP. We like to mock Trump and his popularity in America but we've just voted for our Trump effectively. I am genuinely concerned about what the right wing filth will do when they realise nothing is changing because the EU was nothing more than a scapegoat. My live in chum is of Indian descent, despite her, her parents, and her grandparents and most of her great grand parents all being born here and she has had people yell things at her during this campaign, telling her she will be sent 'home' and much more vile stuff. No those people have won and its ****ing terrifying.

yup. it is ridiculous to brand the Remain campaign 'project fear'. the information was worrying because that is what is going to happen. the results of leaving are going to be dire. small minded, ignorant, selfish people in the UK have brought an end to the United Kingdom, and likely the EU too. England and Wales will be left huddling together round a flaming barrel going 'we're still great'

[Darren Richardson]

I see you’re all bashing the Leave voting public....

I wonder how many of you work for businesses which ARE being harmed by the EU's pointless and ill-enforced legislation?

I know the line of work I am working in is being seriously harmed by the EU's pathetic Human Rights acts which stops our country from deporting criminals who are non nationals, I work in retail and the shear number of shoplifting incidents now which are costing retailers tens of millions and who are in fact when caught turn out to be Non-Nationals is staggeringly high, in fact there are gangs from Eastern Europe who are targeting retails for branded goods such as Cadburys and the like, and selling them back in their home countries on the black market, of course since they are stole goods, they are racking a fortune, yet when we catch them, oh no, we can't deport them for their crimes oh no.....

And don't get me started on jobs, as a mid 30's man, trying to get a job was awful, I was applying for hundreds of jobs for almost two years, even the most basic cleaner jobs, but always with no luck, and why? Because of the large numbers of EU nationals who are allowed to freely travel over here for jobs, because they are not UK Nationals, employers don't have to pay higher amounts of NI and Tax as they do for UK Nationals, so employers in their cost cutting are prioritising EU Immigrants first.

If I was unemployed for two years just 3 years ago, Just imagine how long British born teenagers are going to be unemployed for if we had stayed in the EU and places such as Turkey does join, we have to be realistic, the 'Freedom of Movement' the EU enforces if what sealed the death knell for staying, and it will just be a matter of time before smaller EU countries such as Greece and the like start leaving as well.

If the EU from the start had set caps on travel numbers, we would most likely have voted in favour of staying.

[eldargal]

I see your all bashing the Leave voting public....

Yep, because it was ****ing insane based on scapegoating and lies. Nothing will change with an exit from the EU. Nothing.

[Kirsten]

exactly. there was not a single reason to leave, and leaving is going to be a ****ing disaster.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Interesting thing is the stark social divides it's shown up in our country.

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I see you’re all bashing the Leave voting public....

I wonder how many of you work for businesses which ARE being harmed by the EU's pointless and ill-enforced legislation?

I know the line of work I am working in is being seriously harmed by the EU's pathetic Human Rights acts which stops our country from deporting criminals who are non nationals, I work in retail and the shear number of shoplifting incidents now which are costing retailers tens of millions and who are in fact when caught turn out to be Non-Nationals is staggeringly high, in fact there are gangs from Eastern Europe who are targeting retails for branded goods such as Cadburys and the like, and selling them back in their home countries on the black market, of course since they are stole goods, they are racking a fortune, yet when we catch them, oh no, we can't deport them for their crimes oh no.....

And don't get me started on jobs, as a mid 30's man, trying to get a job was awful, I was applying for hundreds of jobs for almost two years, even the most basic cleaner jobs, but always with no luck, and why? Because of the large numbers of EU nationals who are allowed to freely travel over here for jobs, because they are not UK Nationals, employers don't have to pay higher amounts of NI and Tax as they do for UK Nationals, so employers in their cost cutting are prioritising EU Immigrants first.

If I was unemployed for two years just 3 years ago, Just imagine how long British born teenagers are going to be unemployed for if we had stayed in the EU and places such as Turkey does join, we have to be realistic, the 'Freedom of Movement' the EU enforces if what sealed the death knell for staying, and it will just be a matter of time before smaller EU countries such as Greece and the like start leaving as well.

If the EU from the start had set caps on travel numbers, we would most likely have voted in favour of staying.

I haven't been insulting Leavers, but nevermind. The ECHR isn't up for discussion and never has been in this Referendum, and is an entirely-separate political entity. Leave does not affect that at all. What is your occupation that is so heavily affected by the Human Rights Act?

Plus Leave have confirmed that Free Movement of Labourers will be maintained, just that they will need to secure a job in advance.

[Kirsten]

the pound has suffered its' largest ever single day fall. but don't worry, all those economic warnings issued about the risks of leaving definitely aren't going to be true...

[Denzark]

Yep, because it was ****ing insane based on scapegoating and lies. Nothing will change with an exit from the EU. Nothing.

It is a shame EG to see someone with your intellect and education, being so histrionic.

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Plus Leave have confirmed that Free Movement of Labourers will be maintained, just that they will need to secure a job in advance.

How has 'Leave' done that when they are not a sitting government with an electoral mandate based on their manifesto?

[Mr Mystery]

Because BoJo is very likely to succeed Cameron, perhaps? It's that side showing that actually, nothing is going to change?

As I said, this all could work out for the better. In the long run. But there's absolutely no guarantee of that happening.

Darren - you're effectively claiming there that every job you've gone for and not got has gone to an EU national....do you have evidence to support that? I mean, you are aware it's a really tough job market out there anyway, yeah?

Right now, I am thanking my lucky stars that I sorted myself out around 2010. I've got a decently paying job with excellent benefits which, all things considered, is about as secure as jobs can be in this day and age, especially when you consider my only qualifications are 6 20 year old GCSEs...

If your would-be employers are scrimping and saving as much as you claim, that's not the fault of the EU, but a faulty philosophy of short term focus on profits.

[eldargal]

Entitlement 101, 'this job I didn't get is mine and was stolen from me by Johnny Foreigner'. Never mind the 2.2mil British ex-pats going over there and taking their jobs I guess.

[Psychosplodge]

Come on. 1.1million are sat drinking their pension away in the sun.

[Mr Mystery]

And it begins.

Morgan Stanley are to move 2000 jobs from London, to Dublin and Frankfurt.

Bumps in the road, eh Mr Gove?

[Kirsten]

18791

[Darren Richardson]

I haven't been insulting Leavers, but nevermind.

Sorry, I was generalising, couldn't be arsed reading 60+ pages of polite arguing.

[CoffeeGrunt]

And it begins.

Morgan Stanley are to move 2000 jobs from London, to Dublin and Frankfurt.

Bumps in the road, eh Mr Gove?

Currently unsubstantiated, Morgan Stanley haven't made any official press releases about it, which they would be legally obliged to.

[Denzark]

Just surprised at the hyperbole, bile, histrionics, caterwauling and so on. The intellectual left moved away from the concerns of the worker. But they have no trust in him to make up his minds on the merits of the argument - they simply excoriate him for not listening to their arguments, and not prioritising them over his own legitimate concerns. They then piss and ***** and write off his concerns as prejudice 'oh no you're such a racialist you naughty person'.

And wonder why this happened.

There are some Radiohead lyrics for the left:

'You do it to yourself, you do
And that's what really hurts
Is that you do it to yourself
Just you and no one else'

[Mr Mystery]

When their concerns are based on outright lies from the right wing.....

[Denzark]

When their concerns are based on outright lies from the right wing.....

If their own supposed side can't reach them with its arguments, who can blame them? What every working class person in Sunderland had no opinion of their own, but went out and researched facts - and went to Boris and Gove first? Really?

[Mr Mystery]

It's very difficult to overcome hate, especially when the 'hate and misinformation' side pretty much own the press. No matter how loud you shout, they'll shout louder.

It's easier to pin the blame on Them, is it not? That's how Right Wing politics tends to operate, yes?

[Denzark]

Clearly the BoLS intelligentsia need to make themselves available to Comrade Corbyn and the party faithful to advance the cause in the future - no one shouts louder than them.

Flippancy aside, the Times clearly came out and supported remain, as did Grauniad, Indy, Mirror.

The BBC is impartial and whenever there is doubts on this, it is leftist bias accused.

the government broke its own Purdah and issued £9m worth of leaflets.

Did i mention the Times - owned by Murdoch?

So seriously, with that small thing - the internet - as a back up - convincing your common or garden working class was a matter of owning the press?

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. Because of confirmation bias.

Can't get a job, and someone gives you a scapegoat. That's an easier pill to swallow than 'could've done better in school'.

So very few of the reasons people voted Leave for were anything to do with being in the EU. Half our migration was entirely under our control - and we didn't, because we need it. Instead, they're told ARRRRGH FOREIGNERS ARE HERE TO TAKE YOUR JOB, AND EAT YOUR CHILDREN.

How do you even begin to fight that?

[Psychosplodge]

Then they should have built the bloody infrastructure then shouldn't they so people didn't feel like they're suffering.

[eldargal]

Then they should have built the bloody infrastructure then shouldn't they so people didn't feel like they're suffering.

Yes. But that's the issue with the whole Leave campaign, it was all about externalising responsibility for British failures of governance or issues which aren't failures at all. Scapegoat the EU, make the (white) British population feel someone else was to blame for the issues facing them, profit.

[grimmas]

Nar just tell them they are all stupid and racist that'll work........oh

[Denzark]

I started to think I'd re-iterate the point that it is the fault of the alleged defenders of the working class- Labour - for failing to engage successfully at the General Election, and allowing Cameron to get a majority - he had a manifesto commitment to this referendum which a Milibore government wouldn't have had.

Then I remembered Labour was dismembered by the SNP north of the border and split the left vote.

So on a cause and effect basis the SNP allowed a leave vote to become possible.

[grimmas]

The Scotish referendum was a master stroke in that respect. Labour could have smashed it quite easily but that would have meant admitting to all the concessions 2 successive (Scottish) Labour Prime ministers had given the Scots over the people of England and Wales which would have hamstrung them at the general election which they clearly thought they were in with a chance at. However the emergence of the SNP on a British level sunk them badly.

As for the remain campaign the 2 most senior memebers were at essence "OUTs" Cameron anecdotally but Corbyn had always voted against the EU. Have a bit of a think how lacklustre there campaign was.

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair the SNP merely capitalised on Labour being a bit of a mess at the recent GE. There just seemed to be no cohesion to them.

Either way, I don't think this thread is going to go anywhere, given the firm refusal for some parties to understand the viewpoint of the other.

[grimmas]

It's also all a bit mute. The people have spoken. It's time to make it work.

[Denzark]

I don't buy the whole scapegoating thing - it implies that a massive tranche of people were too stupid to assess both arguments and decide for themsleves which way to jump. It seems to think the supposed supporter of the working class - Labour - with 90% of its MPs voting out - could not get its message to its core vote and convince them to remain - the core vote preferred to do the other.

Maybe Boris used Witchcraft as well as 'owning the press' (except for Mirror, Graunida, Times, Indy BBC etc)

- - - Updated - - -


Either way, I don't think this thread is going to go anywhere, given the firm refusal for some parties to understand the viewpoint of the other.

True. Lets hope that firm refusal turns into support for the majority direction of the country - it will end the economic problems all the sooner - noting that pound and FTSE are heading back up (yes still smashed - but trending upwards).

[Mr Mystery]

Boris doesn't 'own the press'.

The press (Daily Heil, Express, The Scum) own Boris. Or have you not been paying attention?

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think the problem is that both sides have sort of recognised common trends among one-another, and thus stereotypes and accusations start flying.

The situation is decided and we're left holding the baby. As you said, time to get to work on the hows and whys of fixing things. The country survived the Blitz, it'll survive some economic upheaval, and f*ck, we might even make something good of it.

[Al Shut]

@Al Shut, what's the view from the other side looking like this morning?

The official reactions are mostly shock, which surprises me a bit. How can anyone be shocked if it was well know that it would be an open race? Doesn't actually raise my confidence in the political class. apart from that a lot of uncertainty and wait and see. Will there be less EU as a reaction or more now that it lost a brake block? Will negative impact be minimized or will the UK be hit with a heavy stick in order to discipline other countries? Who are those countries that could want to leave next? Netherlands? Maybe even France?

Comments sections seem to be less disappointed but more sceptical that the EU will get their stuff together.

One public broadcast commentator called it the most depressing day since the Reunification which I found pretty amusing but I doubt he ment it the way it could be read.:p

[CoffeeGrunt]

Reunification being between East and West Germany, right? I mean, surely that was a pretty good day.

[Al Shut]

One would think so.

Most awkwardly formulated.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Republic Irish guy I work with was chatting with me about the possibility of a Northern-Irish referendum. In his view the system is quite set against it. NI has a clause in its treaty with Britain where it can call a Referendum to leave at any time it wishes, but in practice this can only be enacted by the government. The government is almost always a Unionist government that is pro-Britain, and so Sinn Fein or others like them are unlikely to ever get the power necessary to enact the Referendum clause.

He also mentioned that NI rearranges its constituencies every election, apparently to follow Protestant-Catholic divides and thus Unionist-Republican divides, but who knows. Would be cool to see a unified Ireland, but it'd be a big loss for Britain.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

i think it's seriously time we should just summon the great old ones back. the sytems not working, only great Azathoth can fix things now.

http://img07.deviantart.net/5d64/i/2013/319/d/5/azathoth_rising_by_butttornado-d6ubveu.jpg

so do any of you have copy of the necronomicon I could borrow?

[Kirsten]

The Republic Irish guy I work with was chatting with me about the possibility of a Northern-Irish referendum. In his view the system is quite set against it. NI has a clause in its treaty with Britain where it can call a Referendum to leave at any time it wishes, but in practice this can only be enacted by the government. The government is almost always a Unionist government that is pro-Britain, and so Sinn Fein or others like them are unlikely to ever get the power necessary to enact the Referendum clause.

He also mentioned that NI rearranges its constituencies every election, apparently to follow Protestant-Catholic divides and thus Unionist-Republican divides, but who knows. Would be cool to see a unified Ireland, but it'd be a big loss for Britain.

the Sinn Fein deputy is calling for a referendum, so that will probably happen

[CoffeeGrunt]

They're not the current government, though.

[Kirsten]

well Martin McGuinness the Deputy First Minister wants a referendum

[Mr Mystery]

Could be a start to healing Ireland's divisions. Even if Northern Ireland went solo, they wouldn't necessarily join Eire - but having British hands off could well be enough.

But then, we are talking about thugs who are using a decision centuries old to kill each other, so who knows?

[grimmas]

British Hands? They voted to be part of the Union (more than once) still if they vote to leave (to become part of Eire) they can it's all in the Good Friday agreement.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It'll be interesting to see how it'll play out politically. Well, all of it will be, tbh.

Sadly we had an incident at work with regards to this. One of the engineers who handles parts from the vessels is Portuguese. I never actually knew tbh, his English is pretty perfect, I think he simply came over here when he was young as he has a Portuguese passport.

Anyway, he walks into work today, and apparently one of the senior engineers turns round and says, "oi, aren't you meant to be gone now, then?" He reported it to their senior manager and the engineer got ripped apart pretty publicly, but it really saddened a lot of us to see that kinda crap come out at work. Also made it obvious how the "hands on" types seemed to typically vote Leave, but the office staff and our workshop staff voted Remain.

I genuinely think this referendum has become a proxy for modern class warfare more than anything, but hey-ho.

[Darren Richardson]

Can't get a job, and someone gives you a scapegoat. That's an easier pill to swallow than 'could've done better in school'.

Um Mystery, I don't usually make many comments on any of these boards, and I Don't recall attack any people directly in my posts in the past, but this comment of yours disgusts me.

Have you never heard of 'Learning Difficulties', not all disabilities are physical, as I myself suffer from Learning problems my whole life, and did very poorly at school, and it hasn't really stopped me from raising into retail management, as it turned out I was more of a hands on learner then an academic one.

Oh and this....


Darren - you're effectively claiming there that every job you've gone for and not got has gone to an EU national....do you have evidence to support that? I mean, you are aware it's a really tough job market out there anyway, yeah?

Yes, I do, it's called personal experiance, not all job interviews are One on One, some are group screening interviews, while other interviewers require several of their interviewee's to arrive at a certain time and then conduct one on one interviews, after watching how the interviewee's interact with each other....

And in some cases I've gone back at a later date (mostly because it's a shop I buy at) and seen these people who attended the interviews working there....

[Mr Mystery]

You're still making an assumption that the only reason they got the job was that they're slightly cheaper to employ. That's ruling out straight away that they might have been better suited, better qualified, did better in the interview etc - and that's ropey territory. However, I do agree that prospective employers should have a duty to provide feedback to all applicants. I mentioned I was lucky enough to turn my life around in 2010 - that was all off the back of feedback, where I realised I was the problem. If people aren't getting that feedback, it just adds ammo to the 'must've been a foreigner' bigotry.

The 'could've better in school' thing wasn't aimed at you personally. It's a polite re-phrasing of the 'you've got 1 GCSE and an STI' meme - that there's people complaining about foreign Doctors and Nurses etc, when the complainee has made a complete hash of their life. Sorry for any insult caused.

[Gotthammer]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cltl4jFWEAEbnun.jpg


Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled.

via (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/?postshare=8141466778634681&tid=ss_tw)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClsnUZ5UYAEkBf-.jpg

[Kirsten]

yup, it is a nightmare

[eldargal]

There is a petition on the guvmint website (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215)with more than a million signatures already to have another referendum, this time requiring a larger majority to pass. It only needs 100,000 signatures for parliament to consider it. Fingers crossed some of the ****ers in Westminster grow a *******ed spine and stop pandering to bigoted, petty, selfish ****stains that much of the British populace have turned into and we can get out of this mess with nothing more lost than an semblance of national dignity.

https://67.media.tumblr.com/0f60bd1d1c8e03a33d281491d8c43dc2/tumblr_o9a0gntloi1uxvrrjo1_540.png
http://67.media.tumblr.com/1f38356f6da1ee21606ccbab9b2bce66/tumblr_o9amvaQ4ja1qb49svo6_1280.png
http://67.media.tumblr.com/aee9d5cd2c6c3a0d93a6ac0155a69498/tumblr_o9amvaQ4ja1qb49svo1_1280.png
http://66.media.tumblr.com/cfee4eaf6d7cffc072b9b4f594af517f/tumblr_o9amvaQ4ja1qb49svo5_1280.png
http://66.media.tumblr.com/41e92419af9d6142a4c812689820a31f/tumblr_o9amvaQ4ja1qb49svo3_1280.png
http://65.media.tumblr.com/823d7ff35cbaff002141364bc10984e9/tumblr_o9amvaQ4ja1qb49svo2_1280.png
http://65.media.tumblr.com/a80303cbb792aa342010742d89a34a5a/tumblr_o9amvaQ4ja1qb49svo4_1280.png
http://66.media.tumblr.com/51f201d9b851c1160d725827fe11c796/tumblr_o9amvaQ4ja1qb49svo8_1280.png
http://65.media.tumblr.com/5260339e6695c2f9f7acc42348119c4a/tumblr_o9amvaQ4ja1qb49svo7_1280.png
http://66.media.tumblr.com/6848e9ab611a50e66ff875c0debb0b7c/tumblr_o9amvaQ4ja1qb49svo10_1280.png

[Kirsten]

on that EU vote table, 'number of years they will have to live with the decision' frankly it is worse than that, the people who are 60+ wont have to live with anything. they have had their jobs, got their pensions, lived their lives with all the benefits. they don't need to worry now about unemployment, house price collapse, or anything else. they have already got what they wanted.

[grimmas]

On that EU table why don't the scores add up to 100%?

It's worrying how many are for the oppression of a democratic majority when they don't like the result.

And who is going to enforce this "righteous" reversal of the democratic will of the nation the police, the army!!! May be group of concerned citizens all in black wearing masks? Either we have democracy or we have something else.........?

Although it is also worrying what some think is going to happen now. We've got at least two more years of abiding to full EU rules for a start. I also really don't recall any of the parties suggesting massed deportations of anyone.

[Gotthammer]

Undecided.

In Australia referendums are only passed with 60% majority and every state passing it too, so for something so major it doesn't seem very democratic to me for 52%, with areas such as Scotland and NI voting against, to be counted as a majority.

[grimmas]

Undecided.

In Australia referendums are only passed with 60% majority and every state passing it too, so for s omething so major it doesn't seem very democratic to me for 52%, with areas such as Scotland and NI voting against, to be counted as a majority.

Well it wasn't in Australia. It was total votes for and against as well the voting areas were for administive purposes. Also NI and Scotland total population is £7M out of a UK total of £63M. Besides which 52% is a majority it being more than half

[eldargal]

Being an American today is like watching your house slowly catch on fire and not being able to do anything about it and freaking out, when suddenly you hear a “BOOM!” behind you and it’s Britain, their house just exploded and is REALLY on fire and you, helpless, just wave hello from across the street.
Heh. Can't mock America for Trump anymore, we just voted for ours.

[Gotthammer]

And who is going to enforce this "righteous" reversal of the democratic will of the nation the police, the army!!! May be group of concerned citizens all in black wearing masks? Either we have democracy or we have something else.........?

Now who's being histrionic?


Well it wasn't in Australia.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bw7cV3po1rnk4v4.png

I was saying that, from an outside perspective, enacting such a massive, far reaching change with such huge consequences not only for yourselves but for massive parts of the world with such a slim margin of support (also considering you don't have compulsory voting so there's that) seems like complete and utter madness.

[Kirsten]

complete and utter madness is the truth.

the perfect visual metaphor for Brexit:

18793

[eldargal]

Having a second democratic vote doesn't mean we aren't a democracy, nor does demanding that such a massive change to the geopolitical and economic structure of Europe and the world with potentially devastating consequences have more than a simple majority support. Also the democracy talk rings kind of hollow when we allegedly did this because we found being in the EU undemocratic, but when Scotland and NI point out dragging them out against their will the Leave camp tells them to shut the **** up.

[Charon]

Although it is also worrying what some think is going to happen now. We've got at least two more years of abiding to full EU rules for a start. I also really don't recall any of the parties suggesting massed deportations of anyone.

Probably not as the EU is preparing to get you out as soon as possible and nobody from your Gov. called for the article that gives you the 2 years.
And even then they wont allow you to take part in the innereuropean market. They want to make very clear that GB cant have the candies without doing their "duty" too.
You are in a pretty bad spot right now.
And even after finally negotiating your terms you wont get a better trade than norway or switzerland. This was also made very clear.

As bad as it may sound but it may be not as bad for Europe as your fate will probably put a serious halt to all other nationalist right wing nutjobs in the other EU countries that try to scapegoat the EU for everything and also want to get out.

[grimmas]

Now who's being histrionic?



http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bw7cV3po1rnk4v4.png

I was saying that, from an outside perspective, enacting such a massive, far reaching change with such huge consequences not only for yourselves but for massive parts of the world with such a slim margin of support (also considering you don't have compulsory voting so there's that) seems like complete and utter madness.

I never accused anyone of being histrionic I believe that was Denzark. But someone will have to enforce it by the look of it someone is going to have enforce the current descion at least that has majority backing

Thanks for your outside perspective I'll file it where appropriate.

- - - Updated - - -


Probably not as the EU is preparing to get you out as soon as possible and nobody from your Gov. called for the article that gives you the 2 years.
And even then they wont allow you to take part in the innereuropean market. They want to make very clear that GB cant have the candies without doing their "duty" too.
You are in a pretty bad spot right now.
And even after finally negotiating your terms you wont get a better trade than norway or switzerland. This was also made very clear.

As bad as it may sound but it may be not as bad for Europe as your fate will probably put a serious halt to all other nationalist right wing nutjobs in the other EU countries that try to scapegoat the EU for everything and also want to get out.

We have to enact article 50 not the other way round it's our governments decision not there's.

[Mr Mystery]

To recap.....

Leave screwed us all. Big time.

Piling money into the NHS? A lie.

Controlling immigration? A lie.

The two big reasons they won, both lies they had absolutely no intention whatsoever of delivering.

[Kirsten]

yup, you would think with all this talk of democracy, that lying outright about what the campaign will do ought to void the entire thing

[grimmas]

Well I'd also point a finger at a very poor Remain campaign something which I did mention at the time. The comments of the EU Comission president and the French one days before the referendum didn't help. In fact the only positive voice from the EU was Ms. Merkel.

[eldargal]

Also having another referendum isn't undemocratic, its literally more democracy. We're voting again. I mean if you want to argue we an only have one referendum on the issue then we had a that in 1975 and decided to join the EU in the first place. It's not democracy people are worried about, but the distinct possibility people are waking up to teh fact what a moronic decision they made and want to reverse it before its too late.

[Kirsten]

I would really like to know what the Leave voters think they have won now in the cold light of day. with the Leave campaign having withdrawn all of their campaign promises. 80% of Leave voters interviewed said immigration was the deciding factor. and now Leave have admitted that nothing will be done about immigration. that is not democracy. people have voted for a result which literally will not happen.

[grimmas]

Actually it's the EU that's trying to rush it actually the actually MPS in the Leave camp are the ones taking it slowly.

Also all the name calling, condescension and claiming of intellectual superiority is exactly what stopped people listening to Remain in the first place. Seriously go and read the articles about it in the Guardian and the FT about it they're still condescending but at least they've realised they've got it wrong.

[Al Shut]

Actually it's the EU that's trying to rush it actually the actually MPS in the Leave camp are the ones taking it slowly.

Don't they also have to sort out the whole Scotland and/or Northern Ireland thing before they can start leaving?

[Morgrim]

The museum here just finished an exhibit of a collection borrowed from the British museum. The head of the museum commented last night that the timing was very fortunate, because it was here due to a set of international agreements spearheaded by the EU, and they're no longer sure of the insurance and transportation issues* given that the British Museum of Natural History is no longer going to be falling under them.


*a lot of interesting stuff in museums falls foul of customs and quarantine laws, so you need special agreements saying that they get exemptions. Overzealous customs agents have destroyed irreplaceable artefacts before insisting on following things by the book. Given that checking incoming items is a security priority for every country, said agreements are very high level and generally either each piece or each subsection of a collection has to be accompanied by a declaration signed by one of a list of recognised ministers. So we'll need to get Britain explicitly put back on that list, rather than "the whicheveroneitis of a EU country", and until then getting collections to or from the UK is going to be an utter pest. Thank Gaia we're returning their stuff to them, so we're the ones doing the paperwork this time.

[grimmas]

Don't they also have to sort out the whole Scotland and/or Northern Ireland thing before they can start leaving?

Well NI would become part of Eire so I don't think that'd be too much of an issue. Scotland on the other hand may be a bit trickier as it would become an independent country and one that isn't a memeber of the EU (I believe that membership is for the UK) but I'd agree that's something that'd need sorting out*

I'd also add that if the rest of EU leaders had behaved like the Germans I'd doubt very much we'd be having this conversation

* of course their departure is not a sure thing for either of them.

[Mr Mystery]

Just read an interesting comment from the Grauniad...

Basically, it's an argue net that David Cameron stepping down is because actually invoking Article 50 is a poisoned chalice - especially as he'd promised to hit it as soon as a Leave outcome was confirmed.

Which of course, he didn't. Whoever succeeds him is now sitting on a potential 'political career self-destruct'....


From the guardians comments section:

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

[Kirsten]

I noticed that about Boris yesterday, he was acting like a Remain leader, he seemed deflated, talking about the benefits of young people having access to Europe, you would hardly guess he had campaigned to leave.

[Charon]

We have to enact article 50 not the other way round it's our governments decision not there's.

That is correct (and I actually wrote that) but Cameron did not. And I think he did not for a reason. Who ever invokes article 50 is done. Completely and irreversible. Political suicide.
And as long as nobody of your Gov. does it, the EU prepares to get your *** kicked out as fast as possible.
As a matter of fact, the faster they can handle your exit, the more damage to the EU is prevented and the more damage is done to GB.

[Cutter]

Well NI would become part of Eire so I don't think that'd be too much of an issue.

Speaking as a resident of Northern Ireland, your naivety is stunning.

[grimmas]

Speaking as a resident of Northern Ireland, your naivety is stunning.

No that's what the clause in the good Friday agreement states and that is the one which is been talked about. I'm fully aware of the possibility of sectarian trouble. But if NI votes to go that's what happens. So a mechanism is already in place for the departure of NI from the UK. It would also mean it stays in the EU which again is what is being talked about. You know context.

But I will concede it was a limited comment and apologies for the general tone I have come across as dismissive.

- - - Updated - - -


That is correct (and I actually wrote that) but Cameron did not. And I think he did not for a reason. Who ever invokes article 50 is done. Completely and irreversible. Political suicide.
And as long as nobody of your Gov. does it, the EU prepares to get your *** kicked out as fast as possible.
As a matter of fact, the faster they can handle your exit, the more damage to the EU is prevented and the more damage is done to GB.

Then I'd suggest onus is on them to make an offer to speed things along then. Also there's no mechanism to kick us out and we haven't done anything that would allow for suspension of an of our rights.

[Charon]

Then I'd suggest onus is on them to make an offer to speed things along then. Also there's no mechanism to kick us out and we haven't done anything that would allow for suspension of an of our rights.

A little bit naive, don't you think?
The mechanism to kick you out is YOUR VOTERS.
EU offers a very quick exit. Your government tries to stall.
Now did they vote to exit or to stay as long as possible? The longer you stay, the weaker your Gov, appears.
"Yes we voted out but we have no backup plan and still try to stay as long as possible".

You wont receive an offer. All you get is basically a "we respect your decision and prepare to get you out as fast as possible according to your voters will, so we can make sure that you can stop paying membership fees as fast as possible"

[grimmas]

A little bit naive, don't you think?
The mechanism to kick you out is YOUR VOTERS.
EU offers a very quick exit. Your government tries to stall.
Now did they vote to exit or to stay as long as possible? The longer you stay, the weaker your Gov, appears.
"Yes we voted out but we have no backup plan and still try to stay as long as possible".

You wont receive an offer. All you get is basically a "we respect your decision and prepare to get you out as fast as possible according to your voters will, so we can make sure that you can stop paying membership fees as fast as possible"

We shall see but their rules state something very different to your assertions.

It's called a negotiation they want things from us we want things from them that's how it goes..

So now it's bad if we stay longer, I thought you just said it was better for us to stay a bit longer. Are you just arguing for the sake of it?

[grimmas]

A thought did occur to me on the whole thing. The referendum was an advisory it isn't binding. Surely Parliament needs to vote on the results? Of course it "should" go with the views of the the people but I'm not entirely sure anyone can invoke article 50 just yet. Merits a bit more digging methinks.

[eldargal]

Just read an interesting comment from the Grauniad...

Basically, it's an argue net that David Cameron stepping down is because actually invoking Article 50 is a poisoned chalice - especially as he'd promised to hit it as soon as a Leave outcome was confirmed.

Which of course, he didn't. Whoever succeeds him is now sitting on a potential 'political career self-destruct'....

Yup I read that too, interesting and compelling lead. Also opens up possibility of another contender to the Tory leadership running on the platform of not invoking Article 50 and capitalising on the growing regret and fear over the Leave vote. Assuming Johnson doesn't decide he values his career more than his opportunistic exploitation of the Leave campaign.
Also hearing talk that Scotland and possibly NI both could have veto power over the decision anyway.

The petition for a second referendum jst reached 3 million signatures too.

[Kirsten]

You wont receive an offer. All you get is basically a "we respect your decision and prepare to get you out as fast as possible according to your voters will, so we can make sure that you can stop paying membership fees as fast as possible"

we wont stop paying membership fees at all, because if we want to partake in the single market you have to pay the dues and abide by all the regulations.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Indeed, the more the current government stalls the more the opposition will accuse them of being too scared to enact the will of the people. On one side, the Pro-Leave groups will be calling them too cowardly to do what needs to be done and enact Article 50, on the other the Pro-Remain groups will say it's proof that Leave is an awful idea as we don't have the mechanisms in place to make the transfer, and isn't the right honourable gentleman's reticence to enact Article 50 proof that he doesn't have faith in it either?

Basically, prepare for plenty more sh*t-slinging in Parliament and a few years of utter nothing as we bumble about arguing over what to do. All the while we're still paying EU membership, still open to Free Movement, and the whole thing was utterly pointless.

Given how slim the majority was, I can't see a platform for Pro-Leave specifically getting enough votes to grab a full parliamentary majority comes the next election. We may see another party evolve that would aim to address the underlying concerns that pushed people towards Brexit, i.e., fear of migration, irritation at a London-centric parliament and general disillusionment with the current state of politics. Considering that we'll likely see a year or two of inaction because it would take a martyr to press the big, red Article 50 button and thus expose themselves to blame from their peers for enacting it. Politicians don't tend to breed martyrs.

I can see this vote fracturing our politics even more than before, and a second Referendum seems likely now.

[Mr Mystery]

And there's the suggestion postal votes for citizens abroad never got to them....

[Kirsten]

All the while we're still paying EU membership, still open to Free Movement, and the whole thing was utterly pointless.


again, Britain will still be paying and still open to free movement even after the actual exit. because that is the only way to access the single market. two central pillars that the Leave campaign were won on, but they will never actually happen anyway, and Leave admitted as much first thing Friday.

[Mr Mystery]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the whole thing was just a Tory media circus that went horribly, horribly wrong.

Leave wasn't the intended outcome for the party elite at all. BoJo and Gove were ringers sent in to take the spotlight off Farage. Their whole carefully stage managed plan was to run a piss poor Remain campaign, to let Leave run its course and be defeated, neatly shutting down the Eurosceptic Tories....

[grimmas]

And there's the suggestion postal votes for citizens abroad never got to them....

An actual reason for another referendum. "We don't like the result" isn't.

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The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the whole thing was just a Tory media circus that went horribly, horribly wrong.

Leave wasn't the intended outcome for the party elite at all. BoJo and Gove were ringers sent in to take the spotlight off Farage. Their whole carefully stage managed plan was to run a piss poor Remain campaign, to let Leave run its course and be defeated, neatly shutting down the Eurosceptic Tories....

Labour haven't actually come out of it too well either though. All told our glorious politicians have not covered themselves in glory all round. I'm actually quite surprised one opportunistic soul hadn't come striding out of the wood work of the back benches to make a play for the big game.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not sure which bit of 'many of reasons people voted Leave have now been revealed as utter lies' it is your struggling with here?

Control of borders? LIE. We'll be in the Single Market, so those stay.

£350,000,000 a week into the NHS instead of Brussels? LIE! Farage admitted it. Hannah admitted it. Iain Duncan Smith has admitted it - though of course they're all claiming 'we never said that...'

That to me is bloody good reason to consider a second referendum. Leave is a one way street. This isn't like a General Election where the Government has to at least try to make good on its manifesto, lest they lose ground and ultimately get kicked out five years later.

If there is widespread dissent amongst Leave at the outright lies they were sold, we must have another referendum on it.

[grimmas]

again, Britain will still be paying and still open to free movement even after the actual exit. because that is the only way to access the single market. two central pillars that the Leave campaign were won on, but they will never actually happen anyway, and Leave admitted as much first thing Friday.

If we become part of the EEA as is then this is true. But I think CG was referring to the fact until the negotiations surrounding article 50 are concluded (or two years which ever is sooner) we will still very much be a full away memeber.

[Kirsten]

indeed so.

[grimmas]

I'm not sure which bit of 'many of reasons people voted Leave have now been revealed as utter lies' it is your struggling with here?

Control of borders? LIE. We'll be in the Single Market, so those stay.

£350,000,000 a week into the NHS instead of Brussels? LIE! Farage admitted it. Hannah admitted it. Iain Duncan Smith has admitted it - though of course they're all claiming 'we never said that...'

That to me is bloody good reason to consider a second referendum. Leave is a one way street. This isn't like a General Election where the Government has to at least try to make good on its manifesto, lest they lose ground and ultimately get kicked out five years later.

If there is widespread dissent amongst Leave at the outright lies they were sold, we must have another referendum on it.

Because you need an actual legal reason.

[Kirsten]

personally I say don't have another referendum, just don't do it. there is no good reason to leave, the result isn't binding. it is a terrible idea, the Leave campaign lied through their teeth, forget the whole thing.

[CoffeeGrunt]

And there's the suggestion postal votes for citizens abroad never got to them....

Mine never got to me, so I would not be remotely surprised.

[grimmas]

personally I say don't have another referendum, just don't do it. there is no good reason to leave, the result isn't binding. it is a terrible idea, the Leave campaign lied through their teeth, forget the whole thing.

Well that is a different thing entirely and I believe something parliament is entirely allowed to do, questionable but they certainly could, it also wouldn't solve the cause of the whole thing either.

[Charon]

We shall see but their rules state something very different to your assertions.

It's called a negotiation they want things from us we want things from them that's how it goes..

So now it's bad if we stay longer, I thought you just said it was better for us to stay a bit longer. Are you just arguing for the sake of it?

You seem to confuse a lot here.
The negotiation is pretty much one sided. YOU want something from the EU. Not the other way round. National pride aside you have surprisingly little to offer. You need the european market.
USA made very clear that you will have to negotiate other terms with them if you want to trade, which may take up to 10y.
Europe will make very clear (as so far France, Germany, Austria and Netherlands) that they wont allow you to take part in the inner european market before you did not negotiate new terms (like norway or switzerland).

It is bad for you to stay longer politically. Your Gov. is under pressure. It is bad for you to leave asap econmically. Dont mix that up.

And dont be fooled. A lot of Europeans really dont want to see you suffer. But they also think you have to suffer as much as possible to stop crazy righ-wing nationalist nutjobs in their own countries with basically the same agenda and "arguments".

Just think about this: I have heard a lot from GB citizens that consider the EU to be run by the Germans and doing everything germay wants. If you ask the same right-wing nutjobs in germany, they will tell you that the EU is run by GB while the USA is pulling GBs strings.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Bidders for Tata Steel in Wales are pulling out due to the uncertainty post-Brexit of how the UK's relationship with the Single Market will go:
http://www.southwales-eveningpost.co.uk/tata-steel-bidders-get-cold-feet-over-brexit/story-29443384-detail/story.html#ixzz4CbqbziYS

This sort of thing is the real casualty, the uncertainty is the real danger here. The government needs to put a plan together and act decisively so that investors know where they stand. If they keep dragging their feet, then investors will simply fear the worst and not invest in moving over to here, or expanding operations in our country. London is in a pretty similar situation given that it operates as a middle man for external countries to access the Single Market, and has to maintain that ability to access it otherwise it'll lose to Paris, Berlin, or other established financial sectors.

[eldargal]

personally I say don't have another referendum, just don't do it. there is no good reason to leave, the result isn't binding. it is a terrible idea, the Leave campaign lied through their teeth, forget the whole thing.

Agreed. The referendum isn't binding anyway.

[grimmas]

You seem to confuse a lot here.
The negotiation is pretty much one sided. YOU want something from the EU. Not the other way round. National pride aside you have surprisingly little to offer. You need the european market.
USA made very clear that you will have to negotiate other terms with them if you want to trade, which may take up to 10y.
Europe will make very clear (as so far France, Germany, Austria and Netherlands) that they wont allow you to take part in the inner european market before you did not negotiate new terms (like norway or switzerland).

It is bad for you to stay longer politically. Your Gov. is under pressure. It is bad for you to leave asap econmically. Dont mix that up.

And dont be fooled. A lot of Europeans really dont want to see you suffer. But they also think you have to suffer as much as possible to stop crazy righ-wing nationalist nutjobs in their own countries with basically the same agenda and "arguments".

Just think about this: I have heard a lot from GB citizens that consider the EU to be run by the Germans and doing everything germay wants. If you ask the same right-wing nutjobs in germany, they will tell you that the EU is run by GB while the USA is pulling GBs strings.

I guess you've missed the bits where Germany said they wanted us to keep buying all the stuff they made then and where Spain wants to keep all those British Expats and tourists spending money in Spain.

But this is old ground and nothing we haven't covered before.

[Kirsten]

Agreed. The referendum isn't binding anyway.

even the Daily Mail are complaining that the Leave campaign lied to them

[CoffeeGrunt]

even the Daily Mail are complaining that the Leave campaign lied to them

Link?

[Kirsten]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659802/Tory-Brexiteer-Dan-Hannan-insists-quitting-EU-does-NOT-mean-dramatic-cuts-number-immigrants-coming-Britain.html

[CoffeeGrunt]

Oh boy, that's hilarious. Just wait 'til you see the Daily Express work it out.

[Kirsten]

Daily Mail readers will be thinking 'wait, you mean there are still going to be immigrants here, AND we can't retire to Spain any more? WTF?!'

[Al Shut]

And dont be fooled. A lot of Europeans really dont want to see you suffer. But they also think you have to suffer as much as possible to stop crazy righ-wing nationalist nutjobs in their own countries with basically the same agenda and "arguments".

I can only try to imagine the boost the right (both UK and Europe) would get if the referendum was to be repeated or ignored.

[Kirsten]

18795

[eldargal]

Lol.:p

Nicola Sturgeon is talking about using Holyroods veto power to stop the thing happening, and constitutional experts are debating whether their ability to withhold consent for something is the same as blocking it.:rolleyes: If nothing else its another justification for dropping the whole damn mess.

[Al Shut]

That's no way to talk about Scotland.

[Kirsten]

Lol.:p

Nicola Sturgeon is talking about using Holyroods veto power to stop the thing happening, and constitutional experts are debating whether their ability to withhold consent for something is the same as blocking it.:rolleyes: If nothing else its another justification for dropping the whole damn mess.

it made me laugh

the whole thing is a mess. IDS was being interviewed saying there is no plan whatsoever post-referendum, the interviewer was incredulous.

[Charon]

I can only try to imagine the boost the right (both UK and Europe) would get if the referendum was to be repeated or ignored.

Aye.
In Austria they are already preparing their voters for this case...
Thats why GB has to suffer... those people have to realize that the nationalist power fantasy bubble their leaders try to conjure in their minds burst in a ****ty mess as soon as it touches reality.
Make no mistake, I hate what the people of GB have to go through because of thiss mess, but I dont want the same **** happening all over europe too.

[Psychosplodge]

https://67.media.tumblr.com/0f60bd1d1c8e03a33d281491d8c43dc2/tumblr_o9a0gntloi1uxvrrjo1_540.png

ffs imagine colonising the entire world and the colonials still can't spell colonise correctly :rolleyes:


on that EU vote table, 'number of years they will have to live with the decision' frankly it is worse than that, the people who are 60+ wont have to live with anything. they have had their jobs, got their pensions, lived their lives with all the benefits. they don't need to worry now about unemployment, house price collapse, or anything else. they have already got what they wanted.

Isn't the current generation expected to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents?



Lol.:p

Nicola Sturgeon is talking about using Holyroods veto power to stop the thing happening, and constitutional experts are debating whether their ability to withhold consent for something is the same as blocking it.:rolleyes: If nothing else its another justification for dropping the whole damn mess.

I would assume that whenever they set holyrood up that is was written in that it was subservient to westminister otherwise that's a massive oversight.

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The official reactions are mostly shock, which surprises me a bit. How can anyone be shocked if it was well know that it would be an open race? Doesn't actually raise my confidence in the political class. apart from that a lot of uncertainty and wait and see. Will there be less EU as a reaction or more now that it lost a brake block? Will negative impact be minimized or will the UK be hit with a heavy stick in order to discipline other countries? Who are those countries that could want to leave next? Netherlands? Maybe even France?

Comments sections seem to be less disappointed but more sceptical that the EU will get their stuff together.

One public broadcast commentator called it the most depressing day since the Reunification which I found pretty amusing but I doubt he ment it the way it could be read.:p

So it's not just ours asleep at the wheel then?

[Mr Mystery]

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0Gqp6HPK4sSPjhZu/200w.gif

[eldargal]

Can we reflect on the fact that the Remain camp predicted the economic collapse that would follow, and the Leave campaign dismissed it as scaremongering? Now they admit they had no plan for what to do after the damned vote. Two trillion dollars wiped off the global market so far(120,000 per Leave voter), no more AAA credit rating, everyone predicting a recession, and the Leave campaign abandoning every promise they made. Yay.

[Kirsten]

spectacular isn't it?

[Mr Mystery]

And that's why I don't think Article 50, that big old shiny red self destruct button is actually gonna be pushed. Ever.

[Kirsten]

I hope it keeps getting worse, because that might be what stops them from initiating the leave. Politicians will need an excuse, and a collapsing economy is a good one that might get through to some people.

[eldargal]

Yep. Son the word of a bunch of liars who lied about having a plan post-vote we now have a divided country, a crippled economy, any semblance of national dignity lost, an UK that will cease to exist and a surge in hate crime against migrants and those perceived to be migrants (ie people of colour). Oh and we've lost any right to mock America over Trump.

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And that's why I don't think Article 50, that big old shiny red self destruct button is actually gonna be pushed. Ever.

Agreed.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

I still suspect we'll see a second referendum before long - an ok seriously, do you really, really, REALLY want to do this? type affair.

There seems a fair chunk of Leave voters seriously peeved that they were lied to, and that 'project fear' was actually 'project no-really-this-is-what's-going-to-happen-you-morons' all along.

[Kirsten]

well one of the Leave people openly stated on live TV that there was no plan, they hadn't thought about it, hadn't discussed it, they were literally going to work it out after the vote.

[eldargal]

I'm not sure it will come to another vote, and I'm not sure it should, the country is divided enough. I think we need to see some actual political leadership from someone, maybe May, and just come out and drop the whole ****ing thing. Hell blame it on the Scottish veto if they have too I'm sure they won't mind.

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well one of the Leave people openly stated on live TV that there was no plan, they hadn't thought about it, hadn't discussed it, they were literally going to work it out after the vote.

I genuinely believe they had no expectation the Leave vote would win, and they just wanted to exploit the fuss to increase their own platform, Johnson in particular. He looks like a naughty little boy caught in a lie and suddenly faced with having to take responsibility.

[Kirsten]

yeah I don't want to see another referendum, just ignore this one. it is quite a common thing to do, a number of EU countries have held referendums and ignored the result as there wasn't sufficient majority.

[Mr Mystery]

Hell blame it on the Scottish veto if they have too I'm sure they won't mind.



I would, as far-right morons would just hear my accent, and not concern themselves I've lived in England for 25 years, and more than 2/3rds of my life...

[eldargal]

It's not binding, and constitutional lawyers are saying it needs to go before Parliament anyway, so either just don't invoke Article 50 in the first place, or put it before Parliament and watch as MPs fall over themselves to vote remain so they can't be held accountable for what would happen if we did leave.

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I would, as far-right morons would just hear my accent, and not concern themselves I've lived in England for 25 years, and more than 2/3rds of my life...

Fair point.

[Kirsten]

things like the Scottish MP standing up and ruling out any possibility of Scotland voting to allow Article 50 have given me a little bit of confidence back. combined with the Leave people instantly dropping all of their promises, and then falling over themselves to rule out any quick start to the process. maybe we will be ok

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

I really just can't envisage it happening - the outcome of the referendum is being brought into question because Leave quickly admitted, after the fact, they'd been talking utter rubbish, and that's by those who voted Leave.

This isn't like a Parliamentary Election, where in theory outright liars have a finite shelf life, and the damage that can be done is inherently limited.

This is meant to be a once-off. I'm still in two minds about a second referendum. I respect the democratic process, and perhaps cold heartedly I'm confident I'll still have my job in the years to come and wouldn't overly mind watching those who voted Leave suffer the consequences of their actions.

But it's those lies....they rankle me. I hate liars. I don't think there's anything more base and awful than lying. And I hate to see anyone profit from the lies they told, especially at the expense of those they lied to. Doesn't matter what the lie is - as far as I'm concerned you just don't do it.

[Kirsten]

definitely, it is infuriating. The Isle of Man could do well out of a Brexit, because some of the businesses that leave London will inevitably come to us, and a decent sized bank coming here would be a massive boost. We aren't in the EU anyway, we have much lower tax rates, we are a known factor in a sea of uncertainty. but I don't want to profit at the expense of the UK like that.

[Morgrim]

The market was always going to crash after a Leave vote, because markets hate change. Even if it was the best option ever and the vote was a landslide. I'm not sure that that should be used as a metric so soon; if the markets stay depressed that's one thing, but they may recover quite quickly if people decide it isn't the end of the world.

Of course, the longer Parliament dithers on how to go forward, the longer that period of uncertainty and thus depressed markets will last.

[Charon]

Of course, the longer Parliament dithers on how to go forward, the longer that period of uncertainty and thus depressed markets will last.

Im willing to bet they had no plan behind this and just wanted to use the dissapointment of the people that voted leave and still had to stay.
Instead they go their will (which was not what they actually wanted) and have no plan now because they did not think this will actually happen.

I also think that nobody wants to sit on the hot seat now. That uncertain situation will last while beeing on both sides under pressure from their people on the inside and the EU from the outside.
Also Scottland gave a damn good speech in the EU parliament and I can see GB completely crumble.

[Psychosplodge]

There's still nothing to actually say all the proEU scots are more proEU than pro-union.

[Kirsten]

the Professor who did the fantastic video laying out exactly why leaving the EU is a terrible idea, has received racial abuse following the vote. including calls for his deportation (he is Northern Irish).

http://www.legalcheek.com/2016/06/university-of-liverpool-eu-law-lecturers-incredible-out-of-office-email-response-to-bremain-haters/

[Psychosplodge]

How do you deport a UK national? :confused:

[Kirsten]

you can't apply logic to racists

[grimmas]

How do you deport a UK national? :confused:

Send them to Middlesborough?

[Psychosplodge]

Nobody deserves that.

[Mr Mystery]

Things seem likely to get worse before they get better.

The Express just today blamed Brexit on Europe....

[Psychosplodge]

Well Cameron doing his chamberlain peace in our time impression trying to convince people he'd got a decent deal from them didn't help.
I'm sure a little more co-operation would have swung it to remain.

ewww did I almost agree with the express? I feel dirty.

[grimmas]

EU comission's president's comments didn't help. When Leave were painting him as an unelected despot he didn't help Remains cause by acting like it. Of course we are a bit of a fly in his ointment so it's not surprising he wants rid of us.

[eldargal]

The bourgeois political elites have proven themselves incapable of governing the nation.
Very proud.

[Psychosplodge]

Sounds like a a Bloody Bolshie.

[eldargal]

Not so much. She thinks more along the lines of a Targaryen really.

[Psychosplodge]

lmao. That's one way to run things.

[grimmas]

The introduction of Dragons into the UK political scene would only be a good thing.

[Psychosplodge]

The evil you know, vote Red dragon!

[Charon]

EU comission's president's comments didn't help. When Leave were painting him as an unelected despot he didn't help Remains cause by acting like it. Of course we are a bit of a fly in his ointment so it's not surprising he wants rid of us.

You still did not get it?
The commision president gives a **** about the "remain" voters. Why should he? He wants GB out as soon as possible. He does not want you to remain. And then he wants to make an example out of you. You will not get any favorable contracts. THAT would be sucide for the EU. "Oh look GB popped out and now gets all the cherries"
Forget it. They will do their best to starve your country. And then say "see... that is what happens if a nation leaves - economical desaster, social desaster, secession"

The last thing europe wants you to do at the moment is stay or vote again as this would have a pretty much negative impact on other Members.

[Psychosplodge]

He was referring to support for the remain side before the vote and Juncker's comments at that time charon, not since.

[grimmas]

Hush now Charon, they were referring to the causes not concequences. He very much had and has to care about EU citizens (officially anyway).

[Kirsten]

Very proud.

excellent

[odinsgrandson]

You still did not get it?
The commision president gives a **** about the "remain" voters. Why should he? He wants GB out as soon as possible. He does not want you to remain. And then he wants to make an example out of you. You will not get any favorable contracts. THAT would be sucide for the EU. "Oh look GB popped out and now gets all the cherries"
Forget it. They will do their best to starve your country. And then say "see... that is what happens if a nation leaves - economical desaster, social desaster, secession"

The last thing europe wants you to do at the moment is stay or vote again as this would have a pretty much negative impact on other Members.


Maybe the example has already been made. The pound dropped like a brick- that might be enough that a Bregret vote might make the whole thing look like a narrowly averted disaster.

EU can spin it well, and the international journalists at the moment are helping out (don't know about the locals over there). And if the UK, with its powerhouse economy can't leave without economic crisis, then what chance does your little country have?

[grimmas]

I suspect I'm being trolled somewhat which is ultimately my fault for frequently come over as a bit of a **** but what follows is just some of the reason the EU can't afford to attempt to destroy us.

Firstly it is entirely down to us when to leave. Based of EU laws (yay ironic) we are the only people who can trigger it and only after our own legislature allows for it. Thems the rules. Watch what happens if the EU can't be trusted to abide by its own laws. Also we remain full memebers right up to our departure.

We also spend a colossal amount of money in other European countries. Britsh tourism accounts for roughly 2.5% of Spanish GDP (yep their total economy) and 2% of French GDP (figures based of percentage of Birtish visitors and proportion of the GDP fro tourism). Most European tourist destinations have Britsh visitors as there 1st or 2nd most numerous including Greece and the Holland. How do you think the already on the rise French nationalist will react if EU punitive measures costs them 2% of GDP, bye bye EU thats what happens. That goes for Greece and Holland. Spain is going to be pretty cheesed off as well (even more so if Scotland is allowed to split and join given what's happening in Catalan). I'm not even going to go into the large amounts of property the British have been snapping up in both France and Spin but it does contribute a substantial amount. Also visitors to Britian from the EU are far far lower than what's going out. And we buy lots of other stuff of them as well that's just one small part

Also Britain represents 20% of the EU economy 2.8 Trillion we might be taking a hit but they're taking an almight kick in the knackers. Yes the Pound has massively dropped but so did the Euro in 2015 and it has in no way recovered. They aren't in a position to sort us out and survive.

Yep the EU could try and squeeze us but they'd be killing themselves in the process. Yes they are showing a nice unified front in public (Kudos to them it more than our buffoons can manage) but behind closed door the **** will be hitting the fan.

They'll deal because they'll have too, but then again so do we.