LEGALWATCH: Games Workshop vs Chapterhouse Verdict

[Wolfshade]

This is rapidly descending into a GW is too expensive debate. This has been had countless times, I am intransigent. It isn't an essential, if you can afford it then great, if not well that is a shame. There are alternatives you can buy second hand or via online retailers and get 33% discount, or whatever it is.
Don't like the cost of the paints then buy alternatives, spray too much? Well get yourself a compressor/airbrush, though that is probably too expensive for an initial outlay.
In times ike these with a recession and increasing inflation of course pay packets are being stretched thinner, that isn't to say that GW should be cheaper, I think we all wish that it were the case, but you have to choose what is or isn't essential. If you are picking a pot of chaos black over lunch then you are doing something wrong.

[Caitsidhe]

Heh. Whether or not Games Workshop product is too expensive for the consumers (or a signifcant number of them anyway) is important when talking about the counterfeit product. Leaving behind the normal competition, i.e. third party vendors, counterfeit operators make their bread and butter by under cutting legitimate product. This is why there is always a risk in trying to be considered a "luxury" item. Competitive prices make it difficult to make high profit when undercutting a company.

In short, their higher prices are what make it profitable in the first place. A reduction in prices would cut back in counterfeit profit as they in turn would have to cut their own costs FURTHER. There is a break point for them. The issue for Games Workshop is whether or not they gain or lose more money by trying to compete in pricing. In short, does putting the counterfeit types out of operation and getting those sales back match or exceed just eating the losses.

These are important questions. It will always come back to how easy it is to get the counterfeits or make them yourself. If there were only a few of these operators out there and they were hard to reach (or unreliable) I would agree that Games Workshop could just eat the losses and maintain their current market strategy. Sadly, that is not the case. Ironic as it may sound, the counterfeit vendors are MORE reliable and faster than Games Workshop themselves. They are numerous and widespread. The march of technology is only gonig to make the problem worse.

Then we fall to brand loyalty. Some of you assert that most people just LOVE Games Workshop and will buy from them because it is the right thing to do and that they understand that not doing so will somehow cause us to lose in the long run. I will not try to address the veracity of such an argument as that is beyond me, but I will say that is a very NAIVE way of looking at human nature. If we have learned anything about the market from the last twenty years, we know that people embrace free downloads (legal or not) counterfeit product, and generally don't feel any great shame about it. Moreover, Games Workshop isn't that loved. I ahve NEVER seen a company more maligned and in a weirder, dysfunctional relationship with its own fans than this one. We can try to blame that on all sorts of factors, but at some point we must accept that Games Workshop has a publicity issue.

All of these things combine to a perfect storm:

1. Lots of counterfeit outfits out there.
2. They are good at it and actually more relaible than GW.
3. GW has high prices which creates the window for the counterfeit outfits.
4. GW seems to inspire a lot of negative reaction which makes people feel justified in sticking it to them.
5. The internet distribution net has revolutionized counterfeit efficiency.
6. The internet makes it almost impossible to shut them down.
7. It is impossible to tell a genuine from a fake when painted.
8. There is no reason for anyone to check for a genuine versus fake at an event as GW doesn't manage tournaments.
9. There is a huge difference between the culture and expectations of American vs. European players.
10. The approaching technology promises to take the abiltiy replicate models to new levels and be ungovernable.

These are market realities. The options open to Games Workshop are few. They can try to POLICE this situation and go after the counterfeiters, but as several of you have said, this is HARD. We also know it is expensive and won't earn any money back. We also know two will replace every one actually caught and shut down. Games Workshop can try to close the window on counterfeiters by making it less or not profitable, i.e. by making its sales via bulk sales rather than as luxury items. If there are OTHER viable options, I'm not aware of them.

[Wolfshade]

Just remember people pirate mp3s that are for sale at .99c, how much cheaper do they need to be before people stop doing this?

If GW cuts their prices, they need to increase their sales to cover it, information from this very case would suggest that while revenue is up, that actual sales are down. As someon has said cut 10% in price, need to sell 10% more (since the actual cost of production is negligable)...

[Caitsidhe]

Just remember people pirate mp3s that are for sale at .99c, how much cheaper do they need to be before people stop doing this?

If GW cuts their prices, they need to increase their sales to cover it, information from this very case would suggest that while revenue is up, that actual sales are down. As someon has said cut 10% in price, need to sell 10% more (since the actual cost of production is negligable)...

Yes, there will always be people who still pirate. Piracy dropped dramatically, however, when the prices came down in music. Most people proved willing to pay when the price was significantly lower and they could buy specific songs rather than having to buy entire albums. The music industry has been where Games Workshop now stands. They fought for two decades before finally changing their market plan. Now they are not only solvent but slowly going up in profit again. Go figure.

Nobody is claiming, least of all me, that dropping prices will end piracy. The kind of piracy you are talking about is unavoidable the moment the technology makes it "push button" for the average person. :) I'm suggesting that cutting prices hurts counterfeit vendors.

[Yetisam]

I have been out of the hobby a long time but is there much fake GW stuff going around? I know the forge world recasts but not seen a fake Box Dark Vengeance etc.

[Caitsidhe]

I have been out of the hobby a long time but is there much fake GW stuff going around? I know the forge world recasts but not seen a fake Box Dark Vengeance etc.

<laughs> I doubt there are a lot of that particular set. You can get them dirt cheap on ebay and on trade. Hell people give stuff like that away in my META all the time. There are games where people try to find original uses for Hellbrutes, but not as Hellbrutes. I've cut at least three of them up myself to make into weird conversions. Counterfeit stuff tends to be stuff that isn't already flooding the market and pricey.

That being said, I assure you that if you wanted to find some Chosen models from that set, I'm willing to bet it wouldn't take much effort to order some from a location that is clearly Eastern Block and that you would be hard pressed to know if they were actual GW product or not.

[Yetisam]

<laughs> I doubt there are a lot of that particular set. You can get them dirt cheap on ebay and on trade. Hell people give stuff like that away in my META all the time. There are games where people try to find original uses for Hellbrutes, but not as Hellbrutes. I've cut at least three of them up myself to make into weird conversions. Counterfeit stuff tends to be stuff that isn't already flooding the market and pricey.

That being said, I assure you that if you wanted to find some Chosen models from that set, I'm willing to bet it wouldn't take much effort to order some from a location that is clearly Eastern Block and that you would be hard pressed to know if they were actual GW product or not.

I just used Dark Vengeance as an example a bad one yes, I personally have not seen a GW fake before so will be keeping an eye out! Would be interesting to see the difference between them.

[Caitsidhe]

I just used Dark Vengeance as an example a bad one yes, I personally have not seen a GW fake before so will be keeping an eye out! Would be interesting to see the difference between them.

There isn't any difference. You "might" have seen lots of fakes. They are simply recasts of GW product. Once painted there isn't any real way to tell them apart.

[Deadlift]

<laughs> I doubt there are a lot of that particular set. You can get them dirt cheap on ebay and on trade. Hell people give stuff like that away in my META all the time. There are games where people try to find original uses for Hellbrutes, but not as Hellbrutes. I've cut at least three of them up myself to make into weird conversions. Counterfeit stuff tends to be stuff that isn't already flooding the market and pricey.


That being said, I assure you that if you wanted to find some Chosen models from that set, I'm willing to bet it wouldn't take much effort to order some from a location that is clearly Eastern Block and that you would be hard pressed to know if they were actual GW product or not.

Hellbrutes make wicked conversions for Ork warbosses in mega armour.

[DarkLink]

That does sound pretty awesome.

[rle68]

Anything coming out of hong kong that is painted is a counterfeit 99 out 99 times no doubt

[Mr Mystery]

Yes, there will always be people who still pirate. Piracy dropped dramatically, however, when the prices came down in music. Most people proved willing to pay when the price was significantly lower and they could buy specific songs rather than having to buy entire albums. The music industry has been where Games Workshop now stands. They fought for two decades before finally changing their market plan. Now they are not only solvent but slowly going up in profit again. Go figure.

Nobody is claiming, least of all me, that dropping prices will end piracy. The kind of piracy you are talking about is unavoidable the moment the technology makes it "push button" for the average person. :) I'm suggesting that cutting prices hurts counterfeit vendors.

Is it price, or ease of access though?

Napster (the daddy of the them all!) meant music fans could lay their digital hands on harder to find albums. The sort of stuff you'd normal have to special order with no timescale.

Then came iTunes, eventually (going with the names I know folks!). This did exactly the same, but with the option to cough up for it.

iTunes and others seriously take off. I'd say that's a triumph of convenience over cost. I for one am a hopeless shopper. Unless its GW, I tend to forget what it is I was actually after in store, and buy something else. iTunes however? If I remember I want an album, I can jump on iTunes and buy it there and then. Boom. No fuss. And at the risk of sounding hipster, I'm generally into obscure bands from yesteryear. Kind of unavoidable when you're main taste is Punk and 80's Electro. Interwebs is a boon for this!

The price is less of an issue. Personal opinion is that pirates are gits with an over inflated sense of entitlement.
If I wants it, I pays for it. Even if an album I fancied was £50 on iTunes, I'd still either pay, or go without. And flexibility of budget aside, I am far from alone in that regard!

[Caitsidhe]

Is it price, or ease of access though?

It is a bit of both. For most people, price is part of access.

[Mr Mystery]

Not so much.

I do get your point, but think about it. There are many things people consider to be expensive/too expensive (two different points if you ask me, as the latter suggests a lack of value). Yet few people would steal said items. Be it a games console, car, house, or even a nice bottle of booze, if the price is too high, we go without and don't stress about it.

Sure, we may settle on a cheaper alternative, and there's nothing wrong there, as long as said product isn't a knock off, like a shonky DVD hawked round the pub, or counterfeit wine made with only the finest turpentine and rat droppings...

So whilst price is part of access, being able to easily find the produc in question is the biggest hurdle when it comes to films, music, books and that.

[DarkLink]

Getting thrown in jail for car theft is a pretty big inconvenience.

[Psychosplodge]

They jail you for that in the states? O_o

[Magpie]

The price is less of an issue. Personal opinion is that pirates are gits with an over inflated sense of entitlement.
If I wants it, I pays for it. Even if an album I fancied was £50 on iTunes, I'd still either pay, or go without. And flexibility of budget aside, I am far from alone in that regard!

I agree totally, in my experience you get what you pay for.

[daboarder]

which is all well and good, until your charged twice the price (including Currency conversion) for a digitally distributed product. For example, is Australia it is cheaper to fly to america and buy a copy of physical copy of adobe before flying back, than it is to download a copy in australia

[Mr Mystery]

Then your option is clear there I'd imagine....

Still isn't an excuse to illegally obtain it. Stuff is expensive. Life isn't cheap.

When it comes to Blurays and other home entertainments, I'll get my 'must-haves' on release day (typically this applies to 3D versions, because they seem to be pretty scarce after the initial release). The rest? Pick them up as and when, usually when they're on offer. I don't go downloading them in the meantime. Well. Stream yes, via Netflix or Lovefilm. But nothing illegal or otherwise dodgy.

[Psychosplodge]

Leave it a few weeks, and you can often get new releases for £5-£7, especially when they've over hyped it and overstock...

[weeble1000]

I have noticed folks 'round the internets going on about who "won" the GW v CHS case. I dug up some comments by Magistrate Judge Gilbert from way back in September 2011 that help to put this whole thing into context.

Here are the facts about who prevailed on various claims. Note that obviously this is pre-judgment, and the judgement, once entered, will be preliminary and subject to post-trial motions. Then there very well may be an appellate process:

"Together with the summary judgment wins, the jury’s verdict confirmed Chapterhouse can continue to make and sell 111 products that Games Workshop hoped to block using copyright laws, and can continue to use 104 words and phrases that Games Workshop said were trademarked."

Chapterhouse Studios won on 111 copyright claims and 104 trademark claims. That of course does not include the Court finding that none of GW's marks are famous.

For its part, GW won something like 50 copyright claims and 50 trademark claims, according to the BOLS post.

Now, you could say that GW "won" because it won something, but GW's goal was not to win something. GW's goal was to obliterate Chapterhouse Studios.

These comments by Magistrate Judge Gilbert, waaaay back on September 1st, 2011 are very, very enlightening:

You can find it on page 107 of this document (http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.163.1.pdf).


THE COURT: And so let's say for the sake of argument
and only for the sake of argument and not as any finding or
anything else that for at least some of your items you're
going to be able to show they're substantially similar and
you're going to be able to put together whatever
circumstantial or even direct evidence in terms of the types
of things you're asking for from the defendant of copying,
okay? And for others it's going to be a little bit dicier.
You're not going to be able to show that they're that similar
and you're not going to be able to -- and maybe the defendant
is going to be able to articulate from whatever diaries he has
or whatever that he came up with the Shakespeare sonnet pretty
much on his own and it's going to be a bit of a reach.
But let say you're going to win on some of this stuff
after you go through all your discovery. What then? If Games
Workshop Limited's goal is to put Chapterhouse Studios out of
business, a death knell, cease and desist, go away, die, and
pay us whatever you can of our attorneys' fees, then you're
right, there is no basis to sit down and settle this case.
However, if you would like to work out some agreement
with Chapterhouse Studios, and I haven't yet heard whether
Chapterhouse is willing to do that, short of "We'll go away
roll up and die," but that allows both of you to go on and
attempt to continue to operate in the areas, the space that
you're operating in in some way without one or the other
having to give up, in the world I live that's called a
settlement, right?

And further down on page 115


- and I'll add in also I would bet with 97 or however
many works we are talking about here that defendant is going
to win some too.
So defendant is going to get some ruling someplace from
Judge Kennelly if this goes all the way through that you don't
have any protectable interest in certain of your works. You
know, there may be some figures, there may be some other
things if you get into a battle on this, that lo and behold
Chapterhouse, which has a profitable business on this, there
is going to be a ruling on the record public in federal
district court in Chicago that you don't have rights to
certain things that you're now asserting rights in.
So let's assume that all that goes down. But with
respect to the things that you win on, what do you want? Do
you want Chapterhouse to cease and desist production of those
items, period? Would you be satisfied if Chapterhouse owned
by a fan paid you a royalty of some, or your client a royalty
of some amount in order to do that or some other type of
relief that you could negotiate with them now? Or is the only
way [Games Workshop] is satisfied here is it proves its case, it
wins, and it puts Chapterhouse out of business.

And on page 128:


I think it
would be a shame for both sides here, one side is paying their
lawyers, one side is doing it for free, but it seems to me
both sides have risk in the litigation and it can be an
extremely expensive litigation...

I mean, I will tell you I had a trademark case last, a
couple weeks ago, maybe a month ago now, that was very -- it
was also a zero sum game, it was very hotly fought. The
principals came in, the settlement discussion for hours was
very hot, but in sitting with both parties I learned that the
principals really had a lot of animosity against each other
because of some prelitigation telephone calls that were had
and things that were said on those calls.
And one of the principals took it upon himself to say to
the other principal, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry about how I
reacted when we had a phone call. I'm sorry for saying that I
was going to bury you, that I was going to put you out of
business, that this was going to cost you too much and you
could not fight us. And I have respect for your business,
your plan, your model and I would like to try and resolve
this." The case got resolved.

I think it is fair to say that looking at where this case is now, Judge Gilbert would say, "I told you so."

Games Workshop's aim was to put Chapterhouse out of business, period. Games Workshop was not willing to say, 'You are a fan, I respect your business, I'm sorry for being an a-hole, let's find a reasonable way to work this out'.

Now, as a result, well warned by Judge Gilbert, Games Workshop walked right into "a ruling on the record public in federal district court in Chicago that you don't have rights to certain things that you're now asserting rights in."

You can make up your own minds about who won this lawsuit. But never forget that for Games Workshop this was always a "zero sum game" that Games Workshop walked into with eyes wide open.

[Bigred]

6-27-2013 Motions for Final Judgement
Both parties have submitted their suggested versions of final judgement after the Jury Verdict


4302
Motions for final Judgement

4300
Games Workshop Judgement Request

4301
CHS Judgement Request

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I feel like GW has the better argument there. CHS is trying to grasp at straws, muddy the waters and say 'nuh-uh!' to what seems to me a detailed and comprehensive rundown of legal precedent on costs. But what do I know.

[Mr Mystery]

Hold on...can someone translate.....I understand most of it....but the costs?

Is that GW going for the costs of their legal peeps from CH?

Assuming Judgeypoos agrees, would the partial success lead to a partial payment, or do these tend to be 'all or nothing' affairs?

As a secular example....say you'd accused me of kicking your dog, throwing your hamster and being lippy to your Gran, but was only found guilty of being lippy to your Gran, would that mean that as only a third of the accusations were found to be 'true', that you could only claim a third of my costs?

Utter ignorance here folks, be gentle!

[Wolfshade]

Basically yes, or yes as fair as I can tell.

GW is saying that it won the judgement as it was awarded damages and so are able to claim for legal costs.
CHS is saying that it is a mixed judgement, i.e. no winner so no legal costs would need to be imposed.

[Mr Mystery]

Erm. K.

My head hurts!

[Wolfshade]

Sorry to clarrify.

GW is saying that it won the judgement as it was awarded damages and so are able to claim for legal costs. They argue that even if it is a mixed judgement then they should still be seen as the prevailing party as they were awarded substantive damages and so are able to claim for costs.

CHS is saying that it is a mixed judgement, i.e. no winner so no legal costs would need to be imposed. CHS also cite that court are able to suspend the legal costs if they so wish, though they conceed that this is discretionary.

If there is a prevailing party then they are able to claim for cost recovery on the case as a whole, but the court can limit the amount recovered if they deem them too punitive.

Of course if we were to have a proper lawyer to clarrify it would be better

[Mr Mystery]

Thanks dude! Much more clarified!

[lattd]

Costs are never 100% of actual fees normally 75% although expect 60% in this case because of GW being a bit naughty. GW does have the stronger argument here it seems there legal team can put forward strong arguments :rolleyes:

[Mr Mystery]

Another quick hypothetical....

Say CH had been exonerated on all charges. Being pro-bono, they have no costs. But of course, costs are still incurred by their solicitor, just not passed on.

What would have happened there?

[Caitsidhe]

Hope springs eternal. The south shall rise again. The most likely outcome is the Judge will award exactly what the Jury listed as damages and not a cent more. It is more likely he would reduce said damages for any number of reasons than award legal fees.

[Defenestratus]

Hope springs eternal. The south shall rise again. The most likely outcome is the Judge will award exactly what the Jury listed as damages and not a cent more. It is more likely he would reduce said damages for any number of reasons than award legal fees.

The optimism of the GW apologists never ceases to amaze me.

[Mr Mystery]

The optimism of the GW apologists never ceases to amaze me.

How so? GW won on various points. I'd imagine it's common practice to go for whatever you can.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has said 'lolz GW deserve all and moar'.... Indeed, what I'm reading are lots of questions, and I'm posting questions myself......

[lattd]

In relation to pro bono the costs can still be recovered from the other side you just don't pay them. And GW are well within there right to claim costs than won the case in so much as the jury found infringements and award them damages.

[Caitsidhe]

The issue, however, is what the Judge said earlier on (before the trial). It was stated by said Judge that it would be better if they worked it out, indicated that it was unlikely they would win a judgement on much of their claims, and several other choice things. In short, the Judge was warning them off. Instead, Games Workshop pushed forward against this advice. A Judge who has suggested you do one thing and watches you do another tends to be less likely to award you legal fees. I'm just saying.

[Bigred]

It is my understanding from consulting with several lawyers that in the United States litigation costs are very, rarely awarded to one side or the other.

Something particularly egregious would have had to occur in the case for the judge to add on additional costs in excess of what a jury thought appropriate.

This looks to just be standard "crossing the t and dotting the i" legal boilerplate from both sides that wont go anywhere.

[Crevab]

Was it shown somewhere what claims were lost by Chapterhouse? Going to their site I recognize a few missing things, but curiosity demands I see all of them.

[Mr Mystery]

It's on the judgement documents.


Some pads were ok, others not. There's quite a list of them do both wins and losses.

[ted1138]

They're already more than half way to raising $25k on their Kickstarter project...

[Nabterayl]

It is my understanding from consulting with several lawyers that in the United States litigation costs are very, rarely awarded to one side or the other.

Something particularly egregious would have had to occur in the case for the judge to add on additional costs in excess of what a jury thought appropriate.
Definitely.

[Psychosplodge]

They're already more than half way to raising $25k on their Kickstarter project...

massive coincidence that their "new" products are being "funded" by kickstarter.

[Wolfshade]

I'm nto really sure what the kickstarter is actually for, looking at the rendering, they are already designed so it is just the cost of production to consider, which should be covered by the base cost of the items..

[HsojVvad]

I'm nto really sure what the kickstarter is actually for, looking at the rendering, they are already designed so it is just the cost of production to consider, which should be covered by the base cost of the items..

Not according to GW? :P GW loyalists or workers always say they have to pay of the research and mild costs, even though some of them are over 10 years old and still keep raising prices.

Wouldn't it be funny if CH is just doing what GW claims? LOL

[Crevab]

massive coincidence that their "new" products are being "funded" by kickstarter.

Sooo, what are you implying here? im los

[Mr Mystery]

That perhaps CH have found a constructive way to pay their legal bill I'd imagine...

No sure how else you'd interpret that statement.

[daboarder]

Not according to GW? :P GW loyalists or workers always say they have to pay of the research and mild costs, even though some of them are over 10 years old and still keep raising prices.

Wouldn't it be funny if CH is just doing what GW claims? LOL


I think its funny that you didn't realise that his point was that CHS has already done the development and as such has already has a debt associated with that cost that should be a factor of the pricing of the miniatures as such the only "fundraising" that should be left would be for the production materials themselves, which is the cheap part.

[Psychosplodge]

Sooo, what are you implying here? im los


That perhaps CH have found a constructive way to pay their legal bill I'd imagine...

No sure how else you'd interpret that statement.

Yeah Mystery I thought it was quite clear really?

[Wolfshade]

Not according to GW? :P GW loyalists or workers always say they have to pay of the research and mild costs, even though some of them are over 10 years old and still keep raising prices.

Wouldn't it be funny if CH is just doing what GW claims? LOL


I think its funny that you didn't realise that his point was that CHS has already done the development and as such has already has a debt associated with that cost that should be a factor of the pricing of the miniatures as such the only "fundraising" that should be left would be for the production materials themselves, which is the cheap part.

HsojVvad, aside from what daboarder cites which is absolutely true, do you really think that the cost the GW have is just the cost of research and development?
The bricks and motar stores world wide require ground rent and local taxes, which GW pays unlike certain other multinationals who obsfucate their sales through specific countires for alleged tax relief, such as the practice of Apple, Amazon, Starbucks etc.
Then there is the cost of staff wages, all those brick and mortar stores have people in them, sometimes they may be only 1 man stores but that is still a cost.
All those stores also require electricity, telephony and insurance.
Then all those staff require payroll and HR
Then GW also bears the cost of shipping to those locations centrally and fuel prices have not remained static over the last 10 years, and in the UK is one of the fastest rising costs.
Then at GW HQ, there is all the required staffing of distribution managers, the pickers, packagers, the catering staff, it's rent, the on-going maintence of the machinery.
This is the on going cost of miniatures already in production. Now, I might be behind the curve but I haven't seen a CHS shop.

My point is that I am unsure why such a well defined product, which only requires masters being made, then casting up, requires such a large price given. Now if it were some one man band who had some concept scetches and whose business was not miniature producing, then yes I can see the requirement of it, but given this is a company with several years experiance of bringing designs from concepts to actual products and it is their livelihood, I find it a bit disengenious. Imagine the forums' reaction if GW launched a kickstarter campaign for a new race, or somesuch.

[Herzlos]

That perhaps CH have found a constructive way to pay their legal bill I'd imagine...

No sure how else you'd interpret that statement.

They are treating KS just the same as most other companies do, "here's some renders, help us get production up and running" all the way up to "here's the finished product, help us get the first production run going". Yes it's happened just after the court case, but that could also be because now they know what they can do they've started the new production in earnest and are trying to crowdfunding that's worked so well for other companies.

I doubt it's constructed purely to pay the legal bill. But even if it was, what's the problem? It's a legitimate source of revenue.

[Wolfshade]

Hyperbole police, most companies do not use Kickstarter.

[Herzlos]

I mean 'most companies that use kickstarter', not 'most companies in general.'

[Crevab]

Yeah Mystery I thought it was quite clear really?

Your unnecessary quotes threw me.

[Psychosplodge]

I doubt it's constructed purely to pay the legal bill. But even if it was, what's the problem? It's a legitimate source of revenue.

It's a bit dodgy?

[Herzlos]

It's a bit dodgy?

A bit dodgy how? Because they'll use some of the money to cover legal expenses, in addition to producing the product range they are kickstarting?

[Wolfshade]

I doubt it's constructed purely to pay the legal bill. But even if it was, what's the problem? It's a legitimate source of revenue.

If it is raising revenue that is going to be used above and beyond the stated aims then it is a little underhanded.
Note: I do not know if this is what is happening here, nor am I implying it.

It seems that the only cost now associated is making the casts and then casting away, which a 3D printer can take the rendered image and make the masters for a small amount, then casting up is relatively easy. None of these are particullarly financially taxing.

If they are wanting investors, why not issue shares and do it legitimately, then issue the investors dividends based on the state of the company.

A bit dodgy how? Because they'll use some of the money to cover legal expenses, in addition to producing the product range they are kickstarting?

This is the exact reason why it is a little dodgy. If I donate to charity I expect that money to be used for the work of the charity not on another project that I was not informed about.
Note they have no legal fees, they have a fine imposed upon them for miss-using other peoples IP/trademarks, and if they want to have that fine covered by crowd sourcing then fine, but state that as the objective of the excercise.

[Mr Mystery]

They are treating KS just the same as most other companies do, "here's some renders, help us get production up and running" all the way up to "here's the finished product, help us get the first production run going". Yes it's happened just after the court case, but that could also be because now they know what they can do they've started the new production in earnest and are trying to crowdfunding that's worked so well for other companies.

I doubt it's constructed purely to pay the legal bill. But even if it was, what's the problem? It's a legitimate source of revenue.

Kind of on the last part.

Though that's a source of my misgivings about kickstarters in general. Essentially, there seems to be absolutely nothing beyond good faith preventing the fundee taking the investment money and legging it....

Now for the disclaimer part this is categorically not an allegation, insinuation or otherwise slagging off CH. It is my misgiving about the Kickstarter process as a whole.

[Psychosplodge]

A bit dodgy how? Because they'll use some of the money to cover legal expenses, in addition to producing the product range they are kickstarting?

It seems odd they didn't require it for the rest of "their" range. But suddenly do?

And to echo Mystery it all relies on goodwill and faith... hence dodgy.

[Mr Mystery]

Though again, I am not insinuating CH are up to anything inherently dishonest here.

Just puzzled as to why an already developed item needs a kick starter, especially when he has all the stuff he needs to put it into production ready to go.

if he's going cap in hand to pay his fine, just say so. I'm sure the Hatemob will see it brimming over in no time.

[LostInTheDark]

The reason for the high costs quoted from the kickstarter FAQs are:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1877613212/28mm-wargaming-sci-fi-trenches-and-emplacements-te?ref=live#project_faq_60707

Good question, let me see if I can tackle this..

Up-front fees - Kickstarter takes 5% off the top as well as Amazon taking 3-5% as well, there is 8-10% loss right there from the price.

Postage - US Postal will cost on average $7.50 for these kits since they are solid resin and not hollow plastic like major modeling companies use, and that is not considering packaging and labor.. so lets round that up to 9.00 to be conservative.

Mold Cost - conservatively $200 for a mold that pulls 30 cast each average from our casting company.

Casting Cost - Based off of past models of this similar weight, Id say $18-20 and that includes shipping to my office. (I could be underestimating this cost as this will be our first use of colored clear resin)

The cost add up, Ive heard of many stories of kick-starters actually costing the companies who run them money in the end and Chapterhouse Studios could not be in that situation.

If we were able to do these in Plastic that would be awesome, but I would need at least an order of 4000 and the tooling cost runs about $10,000 per steel mold needed.

Last updated: Thursday Jun 27, 6:58pm EDT

Take that as you will. The bit I find vaguely offensive is this pledge level as it kind of implies some of what is discussed above.

Pledge $15 or more


"I want to get the ball rolling" pledge. This is also ideal for the hobbyist who wants to show support of Chapterhouse Studios recent legal fight to help keep conversion kits for Warhammer 40k on the market. While you may not be interested in the project at hand, you want to thank Chapterhouse Studios for continuing to make new models and conversion kits. This is a way for you to say, "Thank you for your efforts!". A pdf sketch of the recent trial will be sent as our appreciation.

Estimated delivery: Jul 2013

[daboarder]

The reason for the high costs quoted from the kickstarter FAQs are:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1877613212/28mm-wargaming-sci-fi-trenches-and-emplacements-te?ref=live#project_faq_60707

Good question, let me see if I can tackle this..

Up-front fees - Kickstarter takes 5% off the top as well as Amazon taking 3-5% as well, there is 8-10% loss right there from the price.

Postage - US Postal will cost on average $7.50 for these kits since they are solid resin and not hollow plastic like major modeling companies use, and that is not considering packaging and labor.. so lets round that up to 9.00 to be conservative.

Mold Cost - conservatively $200 for a mold that pulls 30 cast each average from our casting company.

Casting Cost - Based off of past models of this similar weight, Id say $18-20 and that includes shipping to my office. (I could be underestimating this cost as this will be our first use of colored clear resin)

The cost add up, Ive heard of many stories of kick-starters actually costing the companies who run them money in the end and Chapterhouse Studios could not be in that situation.

If we were able to do these in Plastic that would be awesome, but I would need at least an order of 4000 and the tooling cost runs about $10,000 per steel mold needed.

Last updated: Thursday Jun 27, 6:58pm EDT

Take that as you will. The bit I find vaguely offensive is this pledge level as it kind of implies some of what is discussed above.

Pledge $15 or more


"I want to get the ball rolling" pledge. This is also ideal for the hobbyist who wants to show support of Chapterhouse Studios recent legal fight to help keep conversion kits for Warhammer 40k on the market. While you may not be interested in the project at hand, you want to thank Chapterhouse Studios for continuing to make new models and conversion kits. This is a way for you to say, "Thank you for your efforts!". A pdf sketch of the recent trial will be sent as our appreciation.

Estimated delivery: Jul 2013

Without references on all that its unreliable information.

FURTHERMORE

like hell he'll get all that done in a few weeks, making the master, getting the molds (he'll need several for the numbers) and then getting them actually cast in a week or two, before postage....


Yeah this reaks like a week dead fish.

[Caitsidhe]

<laughs> What difference does ANY of that make? Clearly people are opting in for the Kickstarter. That is their business. As to how/when Chapterhouse pays the the 25K that is their business as long as it falls within the required time. I've never heard so much sour grapes in my life.

[Mr Mystery]

Not sure it's sourgrapes. After all, CH still lost on several points.

I think it's a general concern at the abusable nature of Kickstarters. It's taken entirely on faith that the funds raised will be spent as promised, and not used to fund say a luxury lifestyle, or a good time in a gentlemen's club of questionable repute.

As said, if he's using this to raise his $25,000 fine, then totally fair play...as long he just says it. To do otherwise is...suspicious, and certainly brings the dude's honesty and integrity into question.

[Caitsidhe]

Yes. Kickstarters, like all sales, are "let the buyer beware." What's your point? That isn't going to change. The only concern here is that it is obvious that:

1. Chapterhouse didn't have to pay a dime of legal fees.
2. Chapterhouse is going to to raise the fine and pay it off at little to no cost to themselves.

You might as well get used to the idea because that is exactly what happened and is happening. There were quite a number of people saying that Chapterhouse would come out of this unscathed and perhaps even enriched. If Games Workshop hadn't drawn attention to them, most people would never have even heard of them.

Do I think he is raising this 25K to pay his legal fees? Yes. Do I think he is making it obvious to stick GW in the eye? Yes. Do I think it is obvious to the people signing on? Yes. Do I think they will get the product they are buying? Yes. I suspect that product is already done. The problem is that people can do whatever they want with their money. You might as just accept that Games Workshop flushed a lot of money down the toilet and helped make Chapterhouse more well-known in the process.

[daboarder]

see that style of hypocritical GW hate is the funny thing, so silly people, so silly.

[Caitsidhe]

see that style of hypocritical GW hate is the funny thing, so silly people, so silly.

It has nothing to do with like or dislike of GW. I was one of the people suggesting, "stop... turn back... don't do it..." and so on while there was still time. If I hated them I wouldn't have said a damn thing for fear they would take my advice. They are merchants, nothing more and nothing less. They did something stupid. They paid for it. Hopefully, they will learn from it.

[Wolfshade]

It has nothing to do with like or dislike of GW. I was one of the people suggesting, "stop... turn back... don't do it..." and so on while there was still time. If I hated them I wouldn't have said a damn thing for fear they would take my advice. They are merchants, nothing more and nothing less. They did something stupid. They paid for it. Hopefully, they will learn from it.

Whom are we talking about?

[Herzlos]

Just puzzled as to why an already developed item needs a kick starter, especially when he has all the stuff he needs to put it into production ready to go.

Publicity. Almost all of the kickstarters I've seen lately for gaming related stuff has been for something that's already developed or almost already developed. Have a look at those by Cool Mini Or Not, for instance. Whether that's ethical or not is a completely distinct debate.

At least in the CHS kickstarter, Nick is taking on user feedback and giving the impression that the funding is going to creating stuff, and that the work isn't actually complete (he's got renders but most of the stuff to be added is in progress).

[daboarder]

CHS!

Wait sorry I forgot they come under the "Totally not a merchant" status and as such we should love them for sticking it to the man.

[Caitsidhe]

Whom are we talking about?

I'm talking about Games Workshop, the only party in the litigation that will end up losing money. There were probably half a dozen ways they could have dealt with Chapterhouse would have been far more effective. They ended up getting the exact opposite result out of this case than their desired goals. They have no set the precedent opening the floodgates for third parties. The slap on the hand they got in damages against Chapterhouse is going to vanish in a puff of Kickstarter smoke. Chapterhouse itself will get to ride the free advertising for a good long while.

I'm talking about Games Workshop. Hopefully they have learned how NOT to try and beat yoru competitors, even if they haven't learned to beat them yet.

[Wolfshade]

I think perhaps the last 30 so posts should be moved into a Oubillet topic on the virtue of kickstarters...


I'm talking about Games Workshop, the only party in the litigation that will end up losing money. There were probably half a dozen ways they could have dealt with Chapterhouse would have been far more effective. They ended up getting the exact opposite result out of this case than their desired goals. They have no set the precedent opening the floodgates for third parties. The slap on the hand they got in damages against Chapterhouse is going to vanish in a puff of Kickstarter smoke. Chapterhouse itself will get to ride the free advertising for a good long while.

I'm talking about Games Workshop. Hopefully they have learned how NOT to try and beat yoru competitors, even if they haven't learned to beat them yet.

Oh you see I thought you meant CHS, as they did something stupid, missuse someone elses IP, they had/have to pay the fine and are now doing things differently.

GW did what they had to do (under English & Welsh IP/Trademark law), they probably started with C&D letters which were ignored/refused (arguably because they were over reaching) so had to take it to the next step. Took them to court and won, not on all the parts but so be it.

[Caitsidhe]

CHS!

Wait sorry I forgot they come under the "Totally not a merchant" status and as such we should love them for sticking it to the man.

I don't love Chapterhouse either. They are also just a merchant. I don't understand where this investment in companies as if they are our friends comes from. To me it is like being emotionally invested in a can of Dr. Pepper. It is weird. I have no doubt there are quite a few people ordering that Kickstarter to "stick it to the man," and if they get a warm, fuzzy feeling from that... it is money well spent for them. You will not that I haven't said anything about ordering the new Kickstarter.

I don't play either faction that would need those products. I don't like the price. I bought the things from Chapterhouse that I liked and will do so again if they put up more than I want and need. That is where it starts and ends for me. To me, however, your rage against people sticking it to Games Workshop is just as bizarre as their rage against what amounts to a street vendor selling toy soldiers.

[Caitsidhe]

I think perhaps the last 30 so posts should be moved into a Oubillet topic on the virtue of kickstarters...


What could anyone have against Kickstarters? I've been a part of several and enjoyed my product every time. I'm looking forward to my Raging Heroes gals as we speak.


Oh you see I thought you meant CHS, as they did something stupid, missuse someone elses IP, they had/have to pay the fine and are now doing things differently.

Nope. I didn't mean them. A small company that managed to get itself an obscene amount of publicity, make a fair amount of coin, got free legal representation, and is only paying a fine the cost of a company car doesn't sound all that stupid to me in the big picture. The vote is still out on them. We have to see how they parley the rest of it.


GW did what they had to do (under English & Welsh IP/Trademark law), they probably started with C&D letters which were ignored/refused (arguably because they were over reaching) so had to take it to the next step. Took them to court and won, not on all the parts but so be it.

Nobody held a gun to Games Workshop's head and forced them into Court. :) It is the option, one of many, that they chose to push. Since the end results were just short of catastrophic, reversing ever single precedent they hoped to set, cost them a lot of money, earned them more negative publicity, and gave all future competitors clear sailing, I'd say it was a pretty stupid thing to do indeed.

[Mr Mystery]

CH confirmed they ignored all attempts to settle outside of litigation....

That's an expensive mistake.

[daboarder]

Nobody held a gun to Games Workshop's head and forced them into Court. :) It is the option, one of many, that they chose to push. Since the end results were just short of catastrophic, reversing ever single precedent they hoped to set, cost them a lot of money, earned them more negative publicity, and gave all future competitors clear sailing, I'd say it was a pretty stupid thing to do indeed.

Because losing control of their own IP and any and all income associated with it is a completely decent outcome compared to taking the risk of litigation against a party they believed to be in breach of said IP.

Again rancid hypocritical GW hate is funny, even more so when those undertaking it try to justify it.

[Mr Mystery]

As for concerns about Kickstarters....

Go read my concerns. They're pretty legible... And whilst without foundation for now (which I'm happy to say) they aren't paranoid ramblings.

As an investment (and it is an investment) they carry no guarantees, and no way to get your money back if the pledged goods never materialise. That is just ripe for abuse. Look at what some of these are raising in very short spaces of time. I could, if I found a good enough idea, raise enough to buy myself a flat, lock stock and barrel, and then reneg on every pledge. My pledgers? Yeah. Short of expensive litigation are essentially screwed. And even then, with no actual contract signed? I'm not sure I'd fancy their chances.....

[Wolfshade]

What could anyone have against Kickstarters? I've been a part of several and enjoyed my product every time. I'm looking forward to my Raging Heroes gals as we speak.
There are some great ones out there, the Raging Heroes is one example of how it should be done, but there are quite a few out there which are bad examples or they have no promised deliverable. As an aside (http://www.appsblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Kickstarter-Infographic-750.png)


Nobody held a gun to Games Workshop's head and forced them into Court. :) It is the option, one of many, that they chose to push. Since the end results were just short of catastrophic, reversing ever single precedent they hoped to set, cost them a lot of money, earned them more negative publicity, and gave all future competitors clear sailing, I'd say it was a pretty stupid thing to do indeed.
As I say GW had to do what they did under English & Welsh law, they are required to defend any alleged missuse otherwise they are seen as granting an implied licence. Then if someone did do something that was more of a copy then when it comes to persue the matter this gets dragged up as them giving away their licence (by virtue of not defending it). The whole of GW's revenue is based on their IP.
They had to take it to court to defend it and not give a defacto licence and because CHS ignored all attempts to settle outside.

GW have been forced to act in a way that they are not happy about because of the law historically, like forcing the Warhammer Online forum down because the URL contained GW's trademarked name. They did not wish to do it, but had to so as to not dilute their IP.

GW were compelled to defend it, or get a judgement on whether or not it was fair use otherwise they would risk losing it.

[Caitsidhe]

Because losing control of their own IP and any and all income associated with it is a completely decent outcome compared to taking the risk of litigation against a party they believed to be in breach of said IP.

As opposed to this outcome. :)

[Caitsidhe]

There are some great ones out there, the Raging Heroes is one example of how it should be done, but there are quite a few out there which are bad examples or they have no promised deliverable. As an aside (http://www.appsblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Kickstarter-Infographic-750.png)

All Kickstarters are up front with how they work. Whether they look good like Raging Heroes or look crappy, the consumer has to make the choice to sign on or not. I don't see the problem.


They had to take it to court to defend it and not give a defacto licence and because CHS ignored all attempts to settle outside.

Or they could have just ignored the little squirt and put them out of business the old school, you know... by direct competition that Chapterhouse couldn't match?


GW have been forced to act in a way that they are not happy about because of the law historically, like forcing the Warhammer Online forum down because the URL contained GW's trademarked name. They did not wish to do it, but had to so as to not dilute their IP.

And yet their IP is now dilluted. I still don't see that their hand was forced. I think the outcome they wanted could have been achieved in other ways and at less cost.


GW were compelled to defend it, or get a judgement on whether or not it was fair use otherwise they would risk losing it.

The thing is there are lots of companies that get their IP infringed upon by small fry all the time and they don't bother going after every single one. They count the costs. All I'm saying is that the proof is in the pudding. We can only judge whether a particular move is good or bad based on the outcome. This outcome was decidedly BAD for Games Workshop. It isn't about Chapterhouse anymore. It is about all those other companies multiplying like Gremlins exposed to water. This case was like feeding them after midnight.

[Wolfshade]

But all those little companies are reliant on GW being the big brand. After all there is no point making compatible products if the product they are compatible with aren't about.

In terms of cost GW can never be able to compete with the smaller one man bands, or they shouldn't be able to as the overheads and costs of their company just won't allow it. The smaller companies don't have such overheads.
GW by going online only could slash their costs astronomically, but they feel that the bricks and mortar stores are important.

[Caitsidhe]

But all those little companies are reliant on GW being the big brand. After all there is no point making compatible products if the product they are compatible with aren't about.

We are on the cusp of that no longer being the case. The ONLY thing those companies are reliant on is the "GAME SYSTEM" that people play. Games Workshop insists the game isn't important to them or their sales (which is insane). In other words, I'm already seeing entire ARMIES made up of third party vendors with no Games Workshop product at all. They aren't reliant on Games Workshop products beyond the game which ties players together. As Games Workshop continues to diminish the game which centered attention on them (and the tournaments) they make themselves less relevant. The hobby is going back to where it started WARGAMING and not Games Workshop. The ironic thing is Games Workshop seems to be the one intent on creating this situation.


In terms of cost GW can never be able to compete with the smaller one man bands, or they shouldn't be able to as the overheads and costs of their company just won't allow it. The smaller companies don't have such overheads. GW by going online only could slash their costs astronomically, but they feel that the bricks and mortar stores are important.

I don't buy that for a moment. They only care about their own brick and mortar stores. If they did otherwise, they would still allow actual brick and mortar stores to sell online (which MOST do). Games Workshop has the most dysfunctional relationship, borderline abusive, I've ever seen with independent stores.

[Wolfshade]

We are on the cusp of that no longer being the case. The ONLY thing those companies are reliant on is the "GAME SYSTEM" that people play. Games Workshop insists the game isn't important to them or their sales (which is insane). In other words, I'm already seeing entire ARMIES made up of third party vendors with no Games Workshop product at all. They aren't reliant on Games Workshop products beyond the game which ties players together. As Games Workshop continues to diminish the game which centered attention on them (and the tournaments) they make themselves less relevant. The hobby is going back to where it started WARGAMING and not Games Workshop. The ironic thing is Games Workshop seems to be the one intent on creating this situation..
Things are very different over here, we have GW's tournaments, but we don't have are independent stores. The nearst FLGS is some 40miles away and on an industrial estate, no passing traffic there jsut people who go on a mission to get to it.






I don't buy that for a moment. They only care about their own brick and mortar stores. If they did otherwise, they would still allow actual brick and mortar stores to sell online (which MOST do). Games Workshop has the most dysfunctional relationship, borderline abusive, I've ever seen with independent stores.

I was only talking about the GW brick stores... since GW couldn't close independent stores and even if they could it wouldn't change their costs...

[Caitsidhe]

Things are very different over here, we have GW's tournaments, but we don't have are independent stores. The nearst FLGS is some 40miles away and on an industrial estate, no passing traffic there jsut people who go on a mission to get to it.

I defer there seems to be a very different gaming culture. I suppose if Games Workshop is comfortable ceding the American market, I'm sure they have their reasons. Make no mistake, that is exactly what they are doing over here.


I was only talking about the GW brick stores... since GW couldn't close independent stores and even if they could it wouldn't change their costs...

Understood. Again it is a difference of culture. Over here, GW stores are the minority and largely disliked. I'm not being hateful, just honest. Over here, the policies of Games Workshop do not seem friendly to the brick and mortar, independent stores. I shop at six different stores in three different cities and every single one of them dislikes Games Workshop and has complaints.

[Wolfshade]

I do think, and I have said it previously, that GW have miss understood the american market. The uk style store worked well globally aside from the americas. I can say that there are a number of people in GW who are not happy with the direction that GW are taking and some things are coming into fruition that will enable people to say "I told you so" or rather they would be if they weren't too busy trying to resolve the situation.

[Herzlos]

In terms of cost GW can never be able to compete with the smaller one man bands, or they shouldn't be able to as the overheads and costs of their company just won't allow it. The smaller companies don't have such overheads.
GW by going online only could slash their costs astronomically, but they feel that the bricks and mortar stores are important.

The only ones GW can't compete with are the hobby casters with existing jobs and no tax declarations, and then they should be producing vastly higher quality.

Whilst smaller companies don't have the same volume of overheads, they'll have proportionally higher overheads as they generally don't have access to in-house mould design or plastic injection moulding, and as such everything they do will cost much more per unit than it'd cost GW.

[Caitsidhe]

I do think, and I have said it previously, that GW have miss understood the american market. The uk style store worked well globally aside from the americas. I can say that there are a number of people in GW who are not happy with the direction that GW are taking and some things are coming into fruition that will enable people to say "I told you so" or rather they would be if they weren't too busy trying to resolve the situation.

Understood.

[daboarder]

Or they could have just ignored the little squirt and put them out of business the old school, you know... by direct competition that Chapterhouse couldn't match?

And yet their IP is now dilluted. I still don't see that their hand was forced. I think the outcome they wanted could have been achieved in other ways and at less cost.


So your saying they would have been better of losing control of everything, as opposed to now, where their control is now clearly legally defined for both them and others...

Yeah real intelligent.

[Caitsidhe]

So your saying they would have been better of losing control of everything, as opposed to now, where their control is now clearly legally defined for both them and others...

Yeah real intelligent.

If they had ignored Chapterhouse in the first place they wouldn't haven't lost control of anything and still remained the boogeyman against whom most companies lived in fear of legal retribution. Chapterhouse was nickle and dime and not costing them anything. They lose more in a DAY to counterfeit casts than they probably do in a year to outfits like Chapterhouse. They squandered money and their intimidating reputation on something that didn't matter.

[daboarder]

If they had ignored Chapterhouse in the first place they wouldn't haven't lost control of anything and still remained the boogeyman against whom most companies lived in fear of legal retribution. Chapterhouse was nickle and dime and not costing them anything. They lose more in a DAY to counterfeit casts than they probably do in a year to outfits like Chapterhouse. They squandered money and their intimidating reputation on something that didn't matter.

No if they had ignored CHS then as wolfshade had already said, that would be equivalent of legally giving them rights to the IP...How do you not get that?

whatever live in your little dream world.

[Caitsidhe]

No if they had ignored CHS then as wolfshade had already said, that would be equivalent of legally giving them rights to the IP...How do you not get that?

whatever live in your little dream world.

Heh. My dreamworld was the one that accurately predicted the outcome of the trial, fell directly in line with the appraisal of ACTUAL lawyers who chimed in on the subject, and is giving you an appraisal of things as they stand now. Games Workshop didn't profit by their legal adventure. There is no version we can spin in which they came out ahead. There is an old movie called "The Mouse That Roared." You could apply the lessons in it as metaphor for the situation that happened between Chapterhouse and Games Workshop. I don't want to spoil the film for you, because it is worth watching. It suffices to say that my little dream world is grounded in a certain pragmatism.

[daboarder]

you wrote and entire paragraph in response that didn't even come close to addressing the point I made.....


Well done

[Caitsidhe]

you wrote and entire paragraph in response that didn't even come close to addressing the point I made.....


Well done

There was nothing to address. You said nothing of any relevance. The only thing that matters in legal matters is the outcome, i.e. the precedents set. If you aren't going to win the points you want to make, you shouldn't even set foot inside the court room. Why don't you enlighten me. Tell me how Games Workshop is better off now than they were before? :)

[daboarder]

re read back a few pages, you know that whole bit about GW legally not having a choice and them choosing the lesser of two evils....

it would be great if you addressed it instead of just hand waving it away with a NUH-UH!!

silly rabid GW hate is silly rabid GW hate.

[Magpie]

If they had ignored Chapterhouse in the first place they wouldn't haven't lost control of anything

What are you basing the idea that GW has lost control over something on?

Reading through the findings I see that many of the claims that were judged to be not infringing often appear in the findings of what was deemed to be an infringement.
This says to me that the CHS "wins" are only a win in as far as the manner in which they used GW's IP, not the IP itself.

For example there was one finding that said that CHS was found to have not infringed on the GW Trademark Space Marine and Warhammer 40000
Many are saying that means that GW does not have a trademark of Space Marine or Warhammer 40000.

It seems it is actually the opposite. The courts seem to have now said that GW DOES have a trademark of those terms, but CHS has not infringed them.
It doesn't appear that validity of GW's IP was ever a question, simply CHS' use of it.

That's how it look on the face of it but until we see a full wrap up of "This item was found to be an infringement because of X,YZ" then there are few conclusions we can draw.

[chapterhousestudios]

CH confirmed they ignored all attempts to settle outside of litigation....

That's an expensive mistake.

CHS made numerous attempts to give GW a way out without going to courts, with a fair settlement in mind for both sides for the whole 2.5 years of the case, yet they never tried to have a reasonable settlement (there offer was go away and die and not make anything that is compatible with our products at all).

GW did make a settlement offer 1 month before the trial (up till that point they had no interest at all in settling besides stop everything you do and go away). It is interesting that they offered CHS money to settle, even when they are the ones to sue CHS. Regardless of the offer, it was nowhere near a fair offer for a 6 year old company that has room to grow especially considering that growth had been diverted for the last 2.5 years to work on the legal battle.

To roughly quote the head GW rep I talked to - "this isnt about logical decisions, its about principal, so dont expect a logical settlement offer based on trial and legal cost because we dont care about the cost". I asked them for a fair offer, one that would let me start a new business unrelated to wargaming. This would have let GW have what they wanted as well as letting me have a way to support my family (which is really what CHS is all about, paying the bills and making sure my kid has a home and clothes on her back), and it would have been equal or less then what they had to have spent on the trial and legal cost. They refused numerous times to meet me in any mid point.

I guess I am tired of people acting like I was uncompromising, I was anything but that. I even asked them if they would reconsider prior to the juries verdict. They still stuck with their offer even though I think they could see what was about to happen. I gave them many chances to work on a fair compromise as well beyond a buyout of CHS, but again they seriously thought they owned the moon the stars and the sky... I do not know if this is the Corporate GW mentality or if they had some very bad legal advice regarding IP.

As it is Head of IP and the copyright GW witness is Allen Merrit, who doesnt have any sort of education based on copyright or IP. Andy Jones was the Trademark GW witness, again with no degree or education in Trademark... some of what they were saying on the stand was parallel to what some posters say who have no idea about IP law..

Nick

[daboarder]

edit: you know what....just never mind

[Crevab]

Scratch that, something else.

CHS, as long as you're reading I've got a question. If I recall correctly, prior to the lawsuit you had been telling people to stop sending you messages akin to "Ooo gurl you gon git sued" because you had checked and were in the clear.

Right?

What happened with that? Were you given bad advice? Bad reading of the law on your own part?

[Wolfshade]

Ultimately what happened here was GW thought that they had a right over certain concepts, CHS refuted those claims so there was no place for comprimise. The only option was for arbitration, which went ahead.

It went to court for legal arbitration and it was clearly laid out what fair use and what was infringing.

Surely this is only a good thing for both sides since they both know where they stand and what they can and can't do. Hopefully, this will stop over-reaching C&D orders by GW and hopefully it will stop people infringing on their IP.

The result is CHS have loads of free publicitiy, GW have a more well defined and case law to protect their IP.

[Caitsidhe]

In the end it is great for the consumer. :) That is how the market is supposed to work so I'm happy.

[Magpie]

In the end it is great for the consumer. :) That is how the market is supposed to work so I'm happy.

How is this good for the consumer ?

[LostInTheDark]

Scratch that, something else.

CHS, as long as you're reading I've got a question. If I recall correctly, prior to the lawsuit you had been telling people to stop sending you messages akin to "Ooo gurl you gon git sued" because you had checked and were in the clear.

Right?

What happened with that? Were you given bad advice? Bad reading of the law on your own part?

Yes I remember some comments that came across as rather arrogant before the trial started. I wish Nick from CHS would stop using the "Its all for the family, think of the kids" line. At the end of the day CHS flagrantly and knowingly broke the law as decided by a jury of their peers. What I never understood, is if it was all for the family why did CHS risk their livelihood in the manner they did, when only minor adjustments to their business practices would have avoided the whole thing as all the other bits manufacturers seemed to manage to do.

If it was for the principal, all well and good. If it was just to chance your arm, all well and good too.

I have nothing against CHS and have purchased from them in the past, it just irks me for some reason.

[Caitsidhe]

How is this good for the consumer ?

It clears the way for more competition by making the laws crystal clear in respect to what would be competitors can get away with. The lower the legal risk, the greater the entry of additional vendors on the scene. Profit and risk are the carrot and the stick. I don't want to get into a long diatribe about economics but it all boils down into it being a BUYER'S versus a seller's market. Lower prices and a wider selection are things which are good for consumers. This is only possible with more vendors competing with each other for the same coin.

In essence there are only two things merchants can do to compete with each other. They can:

1. Reduce prices, or
2. Build a better mousetrap

Either or both of these things are good for me and you.

[Wolfshade]

While I agree it does make clarity for competion.

But companies that make add-ons their business model is dependent on the (continued) sucess of the "parent" maker, untill they are in a position to transcend the parent maker, which is unlikely.

There is not a direct competition here so prices will not go down. Indeed, the smaller vendor with its much lower costs will raise it's prices to be inline with the parent model supplier's prices.

As for better miniatures, well, I think GW have pushed the envelope with that themselves and if you look at a number of these like Mantic, they are made of former GW staff anyway.

But let us be perfectly clear the competition is not after market parts or the bitz trade, it is complete other miniatures/game systems like PP or Warmachine etc.

[Caitsidhe]

While I agree it does make clarity for competion.

But companies that make add-ons their business model is dependent on the (continued) sucess of the "parent" maker, untill they are in a position to transcend the parent maker, which is unlikely.

There is not a direct competition here so prices will not go down. Indeed, the smaller vendor with its much lower costs will raise it's prices to be inline with the parent model supplier's prices.

As for better miniatures, well, I think GW have pushed the envelope with that themselves and if you look at a number of these like Mantic, they are made of former GW staff anyway.

But let us be perfectly clear the competition is not after market parts or the bitz trade, it is complete other miniatures/game systems like PP or Warmachine etc.

That's the problem for Game's Workshop though... it really isn't competing (not anymore) with other game systems. People, at least in the United States, are using the game systems they want with the models they want. The genie is out of the bottle. The market no longer sees it as a case of this system for these models and so on. The American market sees the models interchangeable for whatever system they want.

[Mr Mystery]

And would that account for GW's 10% increase in taking in the US for 2011/2012 yes?

From their own Final Group Accounts 3 June 2012 (Available from their investor relations site)...

US 53 weeks ended 3 June 2012 - £33,621,000
US 52 weeks ended 29 May 2011 - £30,250,000

Damn those competitors! They're cutting into an impressive sales growth!

It's the end! Whatever shall they do! Their sales keep on growing!!!

What's that? It's all down to price hikes? Possibly some of it, but then that rather narrow view fails to recognise that not all the range goes up each year, just a portion of it. Nor does it take into account that units moving from plastic - metal create quite the offset too.....

[Wolfshade]

For me the big difference is (and this harks back to the atlantic divide) there are very few flgs, and those that do exist are rarely found in the centre of urban environs, whereas GWs are.
My experiance over here is that it is GW that actively increases participation in wargaming through thes, yes often people are introduced by a friend but so be it. There are no Mantic, or FoW or PP or what-ever shops so they are relying on people who already war game.
Saying GW is not competiting is a bit of a fallacy, Privateer Press are not a publicy traded company so do not publish annual accounts (or at least publicly available) so we have no idea of how well they are doing or not, same with Mantic etc. so you are using your local view or gut reaction to say GW are not competative, which really isn't borne out in any substantive format.

I think that GW showed in this case that while sales are up by value, they are down in volume, though I fail to recall if this was just North American sales or world wide.

Even so for a luxury product to still be posting healthy profits during this prolonged economic downturn is quite impressive.

[Herzlos]

And would that account for GW's 10% increase in taking in the US for 2011/2012 yes?

From their own Final Group Accounts 3 June 2012 (Available from their investor relations site)...

US 53 weeks ended 3 June 2012 - £33,621,000
US 52 weeks ended 29 May 2011 - £30,250,000

Damn those competitors! They're cutting into an impressive sales growth!

It's the end! Whatever shall they do! Their sales keep on growing!!!

What's that? It's all down to price hikes? Possibly some of it, but then that rather narrow view fails to recognise that not all the range goes up each year, just a portion of it. Nor does it take into account that units moving from plastic - metal create quite the offset too.....

Is that their sales or their profits?

You're also comparing 53 weeks profit with 52, so you're probably at 8% or less increase. I wonder how that is affected by things like the price hikes and cost cutting. It also doesn't compare very favourably with the industries growth figures over the same period (something like 20-30%?)

So yes, they may have made more money in absolute terms, but it still shows that their market share is growing. They should be outgrowing everyone else in a growing market.

[Wolfshade]

So yes, they may have made more money in absolute terms, but it still shows that their market share is growing. They should be outgrowing everyone else in a growing market.

No.

In pure % terms small companies growth should outstrip large companies by a very long way.

Consider a fictious large company that sells 100 millions units annually. Imagine if they increase sales by 200,000 units, that is only 0.2%.

Consider a fictious small company that sells 100,000 units annually. Imagine if they increase their sales by the same 200,000 units, that is a 200% increase.

The larger the company the larger the number of people who use their products, that means that they have a much smaller market share to aim at.

[Mr Mystery]

Sales. Profits are there as well.

And even so (all down the financial year oddities) 8% growth, in a recession, with more competitors and leech companies springing up? That's nothing to be sniffed at!

Profit is up considerably more, which relates naturally to cost cutting. Again a sign of a sensible company.

And is it reasonable to expect them to outgrow their competitors? I think not. Simply put, GW are the big boys. How many players do they have, even in the US alone? Not. A. Clue. But I think it's a safe assumption it's far more than their nearest competitor (who by popular account is PP). PP started off small. The only way is up. GW have to raise the ceiling. Competitors less so, tending to move into the area GW are creating by dint of being the biggest.

Percentages are also deceptive. Crude example..... We both run a cafe. I have 50 regular customers at the start of the month. You have 10 regular customers at the start of the month. By the end of month, I'm up to 55, and you're up to 12. That's a 10% increase for me, but a 20% increase for you.... OVerall, I'm still growing faster in terms of numbers...

[Herzlos]

No.

In pure % terms small companies growth should outstrip large companies by a very long way.

Consider a fictious large company that sells 100 millions units annually. Imagine if they increase sales by 200,000 units, that is only 0.2%.

Consider a fictious small company that sells 100,000 units annually. Imagine if they increase their sales by the same 200,000 units, that is a 200% increase.

The larger the company the larger the number of people who use their products, that means that they have a much smaller market share to aim at.

Agreed, in absolute terms GW should be out growing everyone, but not in percentage terms.
I didn't say their competitors are growing by 20-30%, some are growing much faster. I said that the market grew by 20-30%, so GW's share of the market must have fallen.


Sales. Profits are there as well.

And even so (all down the financial year oddities) 8% growth, in a recession, with more competitors and leech companies springing up? That's nothing to be sniffed at!


Except luxury/escapist spending goes up in a recession, and the market as a whole grew faster than GW did, so they must have lost market share. Which is definitely something to be sniffed at!


Profit is up considerably more, which relates naturally to cost cutting. Again a sign of a sensible company.

Or of a short-sighted company. If they are reducing growth prospects (less customer recruitment, less value add) for current savings, then they've hurt their future growth, and will need to continue to keep cutting to stay where they are. Sensible companies cut dead weight and increase investment during tough times, so that they come out ahead. Other companies seem to be growing and hiring whilst GW is shrinking.



And is it reasonable to expect them to outgrow their competitors? I think not. Simply put, GW are the big boys. How many players do they have, even in the US alone? Not. A. Clue. But I think it's a safe assumption it's far more than their nearest competitor (who by popular account is PP). PP started off small. The only way is up. GW have to raise the ceiling. Competitors less so, tending to move into the area GW are creating by dint of being the biggest.

Percentages are also deceptive. Crude example..... We both run a cafe. I have 50 regular customers at the start of the month. You have 10 regular customers at the start of the month. By the end of month, I'm up to 55, and you're up to 12. That's a 10% increase for me, but a 20% increase for you.... OVerall, I'm still growing faster in terms of numbers...

They should be at least matching the market growth, and in absolute terms should be aiming to at least match the growth of competitors. Every dollar spent with a competitor is a dollar GW should be fighting for.

[Caitsidhe]

Wolfshade is quite correct. Small companies tend to outstrip larger companies for growth because they have nowhere to go but up. Their sales are by default on target for profit and have a tight focus. It is easier for them to narrow overhead. Larger companies have already hit their stride and generally have a hard time without trying to broaden their appeal or expand their customer base. Even so, what Wolfshade, Mr. Mystery, and myself are talking about is diverging on key issues.

Mr. Mystery is going off on some kind of tangent about profits and Games Workshop. He is our resident cheerleader and it always makes me wonder if he owns stock. I take no issue with his assessment of those numbers, but I don't think they are relevant to the current discussion because nobody (least of all me) thinks Games Workshop is going down in flames. They are the big boy on the block. They will remain the big boy on the block for the forseeable future because they have an established distribution network, brand identity, and an industrial production head start. To that I say GREAT! I am likely to own just as much Games Workshop product as any of you. :) The last thing I, as a consumer, want to see is the loss of a vendor that makes good product. Their continued growth, in fact, only proves the market can bear MORE competitors. Their continued growth in recession is like ringing the dinner bell to other potential companies. It says, "there is a market here... come and get it."

Wolfshade and I don't actually disagree on that much. I'm more mercenary than him in perspective, but on the key factors we understand each other very well. Games Workshop is facing serious issues and reality has to be setting in that their business model is going to have to radically change to keep up with a radically evolving climate. The chief threat to Games Workshop, which is only a matter of time, is that some domestic American company will decide to get in on the act. Technology and a growing pool of people with the skills to sculpt models are making it very easy for a brand new company with almost no experience in the industry to jump in and catch up on 20-30 years of head start. The fairness of this to the existing giants is irrelevant. It is the nature of all business in the relentless advance of technology. All the mom and pop start up companies demonstrating some solid to amazing work are only harbingers. That there is a market has been been demosntrated. That it has not been fully exploited yet has also been proven by continued growth in a recession. The inevitable arrival of a domestic company with significant backing, vision, and local shipping advantage is to be expected. Now that certain legal realities are out of the way, we are just waiting for the storm to break.

[Psychosplodge]

We've already got a domestic company... :p

[Caitsidhe]

We've already got a domestic company... :p

No, I'm talking about a much larger player entering than we have seen so far.

[Magpie]

It clears the way for more competition by making the laws crystal clear in respect to what would be competitors can get away with. The lower the legal risk, the greater the entry of additional vendors on the scene. Profit and risk are the carrot and the stick. I don't want to get into a long diatribe about economics but it all boils down into it being a BUYER'S versus a seller's market. Lower prices and a wider selection are things which are good for consumers. This is only possible with more vendors competing with each other for the same coin.

In essence there are only two things merchants can do to compete with each other. They can:

1. Reduce prices, or
2. Build a better mousetrap

Either or both of these things are good for me and you.


How is a company making parts for GW miniatures or Miniatures that fit into the GW Codices competition ?
They are complimentary if anything as the sales of one company's products promotes the other.

Last time I checked there are dozens of competing miniatures manufacturers in the table top minatures market and I don't see how any of them will benefit from this case.

There is nothing good for you or I in this case. There might even been some bad.

[Wolfshade]

No, I'm talking about a much larger player entering than we have seen so far.

'Splogy was refering to GW, with him being resident in mainland UK.

I sometimes wonder if all these small start ups are actually preventing a larger company coming in. If they each are entertaining say 1% of the market share and there are 15/20 of them, if they were unified under one studio they could really start to push out and use some of the efficienices of scale and the intra company compettion is holding them back from maximisng profits. I don't know but it is a curious thing to consider.

[Caitsidhe]

How is a company making parts for GW miniatures or Miniatures that fit into the GW Codices competition ?
They are complimentary if anything as the sales of one company's products promotes the other.

They are both. Consider the following...

I have a Traitor Guard army I'm building to act as allies, to my CSM. All the Sgts. and Officers are going to be from the new Raging heroes line. My rank and file will be Steel Legion models that I have painted appropriately. My Sabres are conversions built with a lot of Games Workshop parts. My Lord Commissar will be another Raging heroes model. In my case it is complimentary. Sales of the the third party models are hand in hand with me buying (well trading for in this case) some Games Workshop product.

I have a friend who has popluated his Typhus led zombie force with ENTIRELY third party models. Mantic for zombies. Cool Daemons from who knows where. Even his Typhus is an alternate model. There isn't a single Games Workshop model on the table for him. His army actually looks great. That is competition. The more people who see that good looking army and then find out how much less it cost him to field the more competition it is likely to create.


Last time I checked there are dozens of competing miniatures manufacturers in the table top minatures market and I don't see how any of them will benefit from this case. There is nothing good for you or I in this case. There might even been some bad.

Like what?

[Magpie]

No, I'm talking about a much larger player entering than we have seen so far.

The only way I could see that happening is if a large company close to the market bought out the major player(s) currently in the market.

[Magpie]

They are both. Consider the following...

I have a Traitor Guard army I'm building to act as allies, to my CSM. All the Sgts. and Officers are going to be from the new Raging heroes line. My rank and file will be Steel Legion models that I have painted appropriately. My Sabres are conversions built with a lot of Games Workshop parts. My Lord Commissar will be another Raging heroes model. In my case it is complimentary. Sales of the the third party models are hand in hand with me buying (well trading for in this case) some Games Workshop product.

I have a friend who has popluated his Typhus led zombie force with ENTIRELY third party models. Mantic for zombies. Cool Daemons from who knows where. Even his Typhus is an alternate model. There isn't a single Games Workshop model on the table for him. His army actually looks great. That is competition. The more people who see that good looking army and then find out how much less it cost him to field the more competition it is likely to create.

errrr no that 's not competition at all. That you guys are just using different models for the same game. 40k is still the only game in town as far as you and your mates are concerned and for GW that is a great result.
You're still buying all the rulebooks and so forth from GW so they are happy as can be because they are keeping a customer that might otherwise have gone else where totally.

The "competing" miniatures manufacturers occupy price points that a relative to GW, not necessarily cheaper or in direct competition. Their business is focussed on picking up the customers that move away slightly from the core GW product for any of a number of reasons. As GW's price changes so to does theirs, so Mantic will always be just that little bit cheaper than GW but will rise along with GW pricing.

Infinity is a competitor, Warmachine is a competitor but Mantic and Raging Heroes are not as they don't provide an alternative product but a complimentary product. Granted Mantic and RH do each have their own game but it is nowhere near the popularity of 40k / WHFB so for now they just ride along with GW.

That is NOT competition, it more like a symbiotic market relationship.

[Chris Copeland]

How is this good for the consumer ? It is good for the consumer because the clearly established principle that companies are allowed to make after-market products perfectly legally has been upheld! GW was trying to squash this perfectly legal market and Nick and the rest at CHS stood up to them! Bravo, Chapterhouse! I've never understood the venom that so many folks spewed at CHS. I thought that after-market products were perfectly legal thoughout the West (and not just in America).

[Magpie]

It is good for the consumer because the clearly established principle that companies are allowed to make after-market products perfectly legally has been upheld! GW was trying to squash this perfectly legal market and Nick and the rest at CHS stood up to them! Bravo, Chapterhouse! I've never understood the venom that so many folks spewed at CHS. I thought that after-market products were perfectly legal thoughout the West (and not just in America).

Gw have never had a problem with after market parts that do not use their IP. This case was about HOW GW's IP was used.

I see nothing in your post championing CHS that benefits we in the hobby.

[Psychosplodge]

Also when it comes to the third party parts for vehicles(where you usually go :D) your right to maintain the functionality of the vehicle comes first.

[Chris Copeland]

I see nothing in your post championing CHS that benefits we in the hobby.

Magpie, GW tried to quash CHS completely. They wanted them to go away and stop making perfectly legal after-market parts. Here is how our hobby benefits from the ruling: wargaming is just like ANY OTHER part of the marketplace and it is now clear that folks like Nick and the rest of the CHS crew can legally carry on making after-market stuff without the fear of being run out of business by GW. I am a gamer and a consumer so that is a win for me. After-market manufacturers used to fear the uncertainty... now they don't! That is good for me, Magpie. It is also good for you if you ever decide to add some after-market bits to your armies... Cope

[eldargal]

Except if CHS had been crushed we could still have bought after market bits from Scibor, Maxmini, Anvil etc. etc.

[Chris Copeland]

Except if CHS had been crushed we could still have bought after market bits from Scibor, Maxmini, Anvil etc. etc. Now Scibor, Maxmini, and Anvil have even more well defined parameters to work within as they make after-market bits. Before this they, and other producers, lived in fear of getting cease and desist letters from GW. There is far more certainty about how to operate legally now. I expect that this will help the after-market sector of the hobby flourish...

[Caitsidhe]

That is NOT competition, it more like a symbiotic market relationship.

If you say so, but I decidely disagree. The majority of Games Workshop is made via selling models. They, themselves, consider themselves a HOBBY company that just happens to provide some rules. :) Since only one rulebook is needed between two people, and in fact one rulebook can service even more than that, the bulk of their sales have to come from models. If people buy more of their models from other vendors, that is competition.

[eldargal]

They do have more well defined parameters and this is a good thing but it is not revolutionary and I think characterizing them as living in fear of a C&D is overstating things somewhat. But a C&D is hardly the same thing as being taken to court. Raging Heroes received a C&D over their lamassu and they just stopped selling it, big deal.

[Caitsidhe]

Exactly as Mr. Copeland says. Prior to this court case there was a big, mean black dog in the yard. It kept the neighborhood children from getting too close and perhaps even scared off a robber or two. Then came legal action and now the dog has a leash on it with well-defined parameters. The children (and potential thieves if you like) know exactly how far that dog can go. It ceases to be that frightening. Old Foghorn Leghorn can do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocJ1GTnmO-w

[Herzlos]

Gw have never had a problem with after market parts that do not use their IP. This case was about HOW GW's IP was used.

I see nothing in your post championing CHS that benefits we in the hobby.

Except that the court case showed GW trying to prevent people using things that turned out to not be their IP.

On the competition front; yes many people still use 3rd party miniatures to play GW games, but I imagine many will start to use other games as they become available if they are moving away from GW anyway. Kings Of War is becoming a pretty popular alternative to WH Fantasy, for example. Not because it's cheaper, but because many people find it a better game.

[Defenestratus]

errrr no that 's not competition at all.

It actually *is* competition.

Cait could have populated his entire traitor guard army with GW models from stem to stern. He hasn't because competing studios have won his business for those goods. Sure the game he's playing is GW but in reality, he's not given GW all of his business. In a normal marketplace - this is good. If GW wants to compete for more of his model purchases, they're going to have to offer something that he values as a consumer. Whether that be high quality minis or price breaks or setting GT rules that ban his models...

Cait's friend who runs a complete Typhus army with non-gw minis is the same. GW needs to compete for his business in order to get something other than a $15 rulebook sale off of him.

[Wolfshade]

It is a bizare competition, it is like saying I want to drive a Ferrari without any Ferrari parts. (I use that analogy as it was linked to the frontpage article). Of course proper competition would be not I want to drive a non-Ferrari Ferrari but I want to drive a Lamborghini.

They want to play 40k. They certainly like (perhaps love) the setting and lore. Core game mechancis also? Maybe.

[Caitsidhe]

It is a bizare competition, it is like saying I want to drive a Ferrari without any Ferrari parts. (I use that analogy as it was linked to the frontpage article).

The reason we disagree on this is because I don't see Games Workshop as the hobby. I see (as do many people on my side of the Atlantic) Wargaming as the hobby. To use your analogy, many of us don't see any particular car at all. We have a basic, generic "kit car" and then make it look like whatever we want. Over here at least, brand loyalty isn't a big deal. We just like to game and will switch hats as quickly as not since the whole point is hanging out with our buddies.


Of course proper competition would be not I want to drive a non-Ferrari Ferrari but I want to drive a Lamborghini.

They want to play 40k. They certainly like (perhaps love) the setting and lore. Core game mechancis also? Maybe.

The problem for Games Workshop is that they are walking away from organizing and supporting tournaments. When they supported them with prizes they could set the rules. They could say, "ONLY GAMES WORKSHOP MODELS MAY BE USED." They could disallow proxies. They could try to limit house rules and changes. They could take all the steps they needed to try and make people play THEIR game in THEIR way. The literal second they stopped doing that other models exploded into use and events became wide open.

[Psychosplodge]

Wargaming is the hobby.
But the competition is rival games not stand in models. pfft if only you spoke English :p

[Herzlos]

Stand in models are just as much competition; it's model sales GW isn't getting.

[Wolfshade]

No, I certainly don't see 40k as the hobby and have said countless times in the past.

The issue is that people want to play 40k without using 40k minatures. That is a little strange, it is akin to wanting to play Xbox games on your Playstation. Now I am not saying that it is wrong, but it seems strange to me.

As for lack of tournament support, how much of the community plays in tournaments. In my gaming group we have taken part in 0 tournaments between us (there are about 12 of us) and we not only have indie tournaments we also have the official GW ones.

When GW was supporting Tourneis there was an outcry that GW was focusing too much on the powergaming, now they don't they get accused of not supporting the Tourney scene, both can't be true at the same time.

[Caitsidhe]

Wargaming is the hobby.
But the competition is rival games not stand in models. pfft if only you spoke English :p

<laughs> That may be the case over there on your side of the pond, but I assure you that is NOT the reality over here. You and Games Workshop have the same mindset, however, and that probably goes a long way toward understanding their problems in dealing with the American market and trying to make their stores work here.

[Psychosplodge]

As I said during the case/results the split was mostly visible by geography - it just appears to be how the nations think. :D

[Caitsidhe]

No, I certainly don't see 40k as the hobby and have said countless times in the past. The issue is that people want to play 40k without using 40k minatures. That is a little strange, it is akin to wanting to play Xbox games on your Playstation. Now I am not saying that it is wrong, but it seems strange to me.

I know you have said that but the very fact that you see mixing and matching models and systems as strange shows just how different the gaming cultures are in our respective corners of the world.


As for lack of tournament support, how much of the community plays in tournaments. In my gaming group we have taken part in 0 tournaments between us (there are about 12 of us) and we not only have indie tournaments we also have the official GW ones.

In my META (and all I have encountered) events and tournaments are the center around which the players orbit. Do we play pick up games? Sure. You will find many of those games to be in the formats we are likely to play in events though... so we can practice. For better or for worse, the American wargamer gets his "game on" at his/her local LGS quite often and VERY often it is in or leading up to an event.


When GW was supporting Tourneis there was an outcry that GW was focusing too much on the powergaming, now they don't they get accused of not supporting the Tourney scene, both can't be true at the same time.

That outcry wasn't for them to stop supporting tournaments. Most people just wanted them to balance the damn game. :D

[eldargal]

I think that is just Wolfshade really.:p Most people I know, even die hard GW fans, have no problem using other models if they fulfill a purpose or fill a void in GWs range (like female guard).

[Wolfshade]

I know you have said that but the very fact that you see mixing and matching models and systems as strange shows just how different the gaming cultures are in our respective corners of the world.
It is like being annoyed that your N gauge train doesn't fit on a 00 gauge track. If you don't want to play 40k, play another game. You wouldn't play monopoly with money from the game of life.




In my META (and all I have encountered) events and tournaments are the center around which the players orbit. Do we play pick up games? Sure. You will find many of those games to be in the formats we are likely to play in events though... so we can practice. For better or for worse, the American wargamer gets his "game on" at his/her local LGS quite often and VERY often it is in or leading up to an event.
So if you have healthy indie scene why do you want GW to run official tournaments?




That outcry wasn't for them to stop supporting tournaments. Most people just wanted them to balance the damn game. :D
Balance is a very subjective term. Look at all the mods for games that "re-balance" things and then if you consider how well balanced they are it is strange. But ultimately if you dislike the ruleset why not play PP or AT-48?

[Defenestratus]

I know you have said that but the very fact that you see mixing and matching models and systems as strange shows just how different the gaming cultures are in our respective corners of the world.

Its so bizarre to me that people think that using another company's minis is odd. I just played an apoc game where our CSM/Daemon opponent had 75% of his Greater Daemon models represented by studios outside of GW. Nobody thought it strange at all...


I think that is just Wolfshade really. Most people I know, even die hard GW fans, have no problem using other models if they fulfill a purpose or fill a void in GWs range (like female guard).

Would you think it strange for someone to use a 3rd party model to represent something that does exist in GW's line just because they liked the model better or perhaps it was not as expensive? If this were the case, would you not play against someone with such a model or models in their army?

(Edit: Not specifically asking this to EG - rather the group)

[eldargal]

I don't get it either. I'm not exactly anti-GW but I love the variety using other companies models brings to my armies.

[Psychosplodge]

TBH I've never encountered anyone using non-GW models... But I only used to play with two or three people so...

[Defenestratus]

TBH I've never encountered anyone using non-GW models... But I only used to play with two or three people so...

If someone wanted to use this model as their Thousand Son's sorceror, what would you do?

http://sciborminiatures.com/i/2012/big/egyptian_sf_warrior_2_01.jpg

[Caitsidhe]

It is like being annoyed that your N gauge train doesn't fit on a 00 gauge track. If you don't want to play 40k, play another game. You wouldn't play monopoly with money from the game of life.

If the denominations matched, what difference would it make? :D



So if you have healthy indie scene why do you want GW to run official tournaments?

I never said "I" did. I'm perfectly happy with how things have turned out. :) I'm saying that Games Workshop made a mistake in walking away because they lost their leverage.


Balance is a very subjective term. Look at all the mods for games that "re-balance" things and then if you consider how well balanced they are it is strange. But ultimately if you dislike the ruleset why not play PP or AT-48?

I do play those games and many more. Like I said, to me Wargaming is the hobby. I play 40K with my friends that want to play 40K when they want to play it. And we are perfectly ready, willing, and able to change whatever we want now that our local tournaments aren't beholden to anything.

[Herzlos]

The issue is that people want to play 40k without using 40k minatures. That is a little strange, it is akin to wanting to play Xbox games on your Playstation. Now I am not saying that it is wrong, but it seems strange to me.

It's more like using a chess set on a board that came with another set. Or using Fancy monopoly tokens instead of the standard game ones.

Or to use a car analogy; it's like a race track has a fleet of fords to use, and you wanting to drive your Viper instead.

I see nothing strange with wanting to use GW's games with non-GW models. But then the majority of my mini's are historicals where the rules manufacturer and mini's manufacturers are often different, if the rules manufacturer even makes minis. It goes to show how good GW's marketting has been when people assume the rules and mini's are interlocked somehow.

[chapterhousestudios]

Scratch that, something else.

CHS, as long as you're reading I've got a question. If I recall correctly, prior to the lawsuit you had been telling people to stop sending you messages akin to "Ooo gurl you gon git sued" because you had checked and were in the clear.

Right?

What happened with that? Were you given bad advice? Bad reading of the law on your own part?

I had good sound legal advice, and we based our operations on that advice for the most part. Much of that had to do with free use of trademarks, how to use them to describe compatibility and copyright law.

I think that is why we won most of the trademark claims that were actually at issue, especially concerning saying "compatible with x model".

[chapterhousestudios]

Yes I remember some comments that came across as rather arrogant before the trial started. I wish Nick from CHS would stop using the "Its all for the family, think of the kids" line. At the end of the day CHS flagrantly and knowingly broke the law as decided by a jury of their peers. What I never understood, is if it was all for the family why did CHS risk their livelihood in the manner they did, when only minor adjustments to their business practices would have avoided the whole thing as all the other bits manufacturers seemed to manage to do.

If it was for the principal, all well and good. If it was just to chance your arm, all well and good too.

I have nothing against CHS and have purchased from them in the past, it just irks me for some reason.

What you saw as arrogant many others saw as sticking to my guns and the legal opinion of the counsel I hired. Trade places for a second, what would you do if some stranger kept telling you how to do your job with no experience behind those opinions? As it is, I didnt attack or insult those posters, I told them that I had legal advice, and they didnt know what they were talking about (in so many words).

The Jury in this case, seems to have given GW some "winners" to appease them, that is how our side saw it, and there was a large amount of issues that the courts caused pertaining to evidence that should have been in front of the jury as well. This is why we are appealing.

And Im sorry if you disagree, but this is how I feed my kid and myself, so yes, it is about making a living. Its not a hobby, its a way to sustain myself.

[Caitsidhe]

So you are appealing? Your legal team is continuing forward with the appeal Pro Bono?

[chapterhousestudios]

So you are appealing? Your legal team is continuing forward with the appeal Pro Bono?

Yes we are appealing.

[Caitsidhe]

Yes we are appealing.

I actually thought there was a fair chance of that. It will be interesting to follow.

[Wolfshade]

Oh sorry Caitsidhe, I think I understand what point you are getting at (seperated by a common language).

Yes, I have no problem with people using non-GW stuff. As always the rule of cool prevails. Though I totally understand where it sounds like I am dead set against it.

In terms of mini vs. mini yes that is direct competition, but while it is a "substitution" it isn't an independent competition. After all, if suddenly GW dropped to competition we'd be in a vaccum without a game system. Obviously it wouldn't happen overnight but you would end up with 3rd party manufactures without a 1st party for them to substitute for. The business model is concerned with the continuation of the 1st party manufacture.

Consider people who make replacement parts for Saabs, now they are no longer in production the requirement for their parts drops.

What I was thinking of was a complete separate competition, like PP or whatever. With separate rule sets as they are the real challenge to GW as they can replace them, whereas the others which are based in the GW universe can only take a certain maximum of customers before their success is ultimately detrimental to the long term survivability.

I don't think the wargames sector will ever be large enough for the mass production driving down prices "stack em high sell em low" that you get with mass competition. Instead I think that the producers will come to a consensus on price and produce to that rather than having a price competition.

[lattd]

Chapter house can I ask on what grounds you are appealing on? Have you even been given leave to appeal. And as one of the people who thought you came across as arrogant but do know what I am on about I will admit I'm surprised the judge directed the jury to give you so much.

[chapterhousestudios]

Chapter house can I ask on what grounds you are appealing on? Have you even been given leave to appeal. And as one of the people who thought you came across as arrogant but do know what I am on about I will admit I'm surprised the judge directed the jury to give you so much.

I dont think I should relay much more besides the fact we have many objections that were raised in court to base those appeals on.

All I can say is that the judge and jury seem to have disagreed with your opinion on what they should have done (and the judge doesnt make those decisions but the jury does based on instructions on the law and what the law defines plus the evidence provided).

FYI, there were doctors, wargamers and many educated people on the jury, it was a great mix of people.

[Caitsidhe]

Actually if Games Workshop suddenly dropped their game system people would just use the current one until another company came up with one we like better.

[Mike Dunford]

For those interested, I've downloaded the judgment from PACER, and have it up on Scribd. It's in five separate parts, because that's how it came off the official site.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425027/Games-Workshop-v-Chapterhouse-Judgment-part-1
http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425023/Chapterhouse-vs-Games-Workshop-Judgment-part-2
http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425024/Chapterhouse-vs-Games-Workshop-Judgment-part-3
http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425025/Chapterhouse-vs-Games-Workshop-Judgment-part-4
http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425026/Chapterhouse-vs-Games-Workshop-Judgment-part-5

The listing of who prevailed on which claims generally matches that in the proposed judgments linked earlier in the thread. However, it does not include the listing of which claims were found to be fair use and which were found to be totally non-infringing.

Looking through the listing, I don't think this is quite as clear-cut a victory for Chapterhouse as some have been claiming, particularly given the nature of the verdicts. (For example, the Ymgarl heads were found to not infringe GW's copyright, but Chapterhouse was found to have infringed both GW's "Genestealer" trademark and GW's "Ymgarl" trademark.)

In any event, the appeal will be interesting (and not just because there's about a 1/3 chance that Posner will be on the panel). I suspect that if Chapterhouse does appeal, GW will counter-appeal. But it will be a while before we get to that point. If I'm reading the docket correctly, GW will be requesting an injunction in the near future, and one or both sides will likely file Rule 59 motions at the trial court level before then. (IOW, there's still the potential for another year or two of this case.

ETA: Yes, I screwed up and reversed the names of the parties. My bad. I'm not fixing it because it seems to screw with the URLs on Scribd.

[Sainhann]

TBH I've never encountered anyone using non-GW models... But I only used to play with two or three people so...

I use M2 Bradley's for my Imperial Guard Chimeras.

http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/919/415919_100616142413_tam35132.jpg

For the Cmd Section Chimeras I use Warriors.

http://cdn2.sulitstatic.com/images/2013/0414/223515234_0927037092539489cabbdd3867e56f790058c5d1 c5d516684ce5f479.jpg

Yes they are bigger than the GW Chimeras but not by much and they do fit in nicely.

Plus if you catch a good deal on Ebay or at a local convention far cheaper.

I have gotten 1/35th models for $5 because the owner needed to sell them.

[Psychosplodge]

If someone wanted to use this model as their Thousand Son's sorceror, what would you do?

http://sciborminiatures.com/i/2012/big/egyptian_sf_warrior_2_01.jpg

I honestly don't know.
I suppose if it's WYSIWG and only the odd character?
I don't think I'd want to play a one off game where every unit is "counts as" it'd probably be quite frustrating trying to keep track.


Mr. Dunford What is Rule 59? I'm only familiar with rule 34. 35 and 63...

[lattd]

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion chapter house as the jury have found you to have infringed on some accounts which is what my opinion was.

[Caitsidhe]

It suffices to say that if his Lawyers (whose quality cannot be questioned) are willing to go for round two, still Pro Bono, it is because they think they are going to win. There is no point in debating this move to death as we did round one. We might as well just sit back and watch. Discussion only matters if we have something new to say.

[LostInTheDark]

What you saw as arrogant many others saw as sticking to my guns and the legal opinion of the counsel I hired. Trade places for a second, what would you do if some stranger kept telling you how to do your job with no experience behind those opinions? As it is, I didnt attack or insult those posters, I told them that I had legal advice, and they didnt know what they were talking about (in so many words).

The Jury in this case, seems to have given GW some "winners" to appease them, that is how our side saw it, and there was a large amount of issues that the courts caused pertaining to evidence that should have been in front of the jury as well. This is why we are appealing.

And Im sorry if you disagree, but this is how I feed my kid and myself, so yes, it is about making a living. Its not a hobby, its a way to sustain myself.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

For almost everyone the job they do is to provide for their family, no different to you. We are defined by the choices we make.

So you have legal advice saying that what you are doing is within the law and you have your business up and running, gaining some traction. You advertise your new releases on forums such as this.

The purpose of your business is to sell stuff. You start to receive a fair amount of negative commentary from strangers as you put it, some of who know nothing, some who provide an informed opinion.

This is the bit I don't understand. To step into your shoes, these people are your perspective customers, many of whom stated that they would not purchase from your business due the way you were presenting your products. If it was me I would have stepped back and looked at the root cause of the negativity and adjusted my business practice to try and not alginate my prospective customers.

Even if what you were doing was legal, and the results of the case dispute this, it doesn't necessarily make it the correct thing to do for a business to "stick to its guns" when this interferes with its base goal of maximising sales/revenue.

Especially when all but guaranteeing legal intervention from the company whose product your products are designed to complement. It seemed at the time and still does a strange risk to take when it’s your livelihood at stake unless it was a crusade to validate a strongly held view.

I am genuinely interested in why you didn't take the easier path that would have saved you the couple of years of stress and lost opportunities with your business. It’s not a risk I would have taken with my family.

Looking back now, would you have made the same choices?

[Caitsidhe]

This is the bit I don't understand. To step into your shoes, these people are your perspective customers, many of whom stated that they would not purchase from your business due the way you were presenting your products. If it was me I would have stepped back and looked at the root cause of the negativity and adjusted my business practice to try and not alginate my prospective customers.

I'm not Chapterhouse (nor affiliated with them) but I can't resist making a comment. Wouldn't it be a fair guess that most of the people who take the time to post negative about him weren't likely to ever buy from him in the first place? :D It has been shown that people who take the time to fill in polls, make calls, and write posts tend to fall outside the normal bell curve in response. They tend to be negative or angry about something, and more rarely very happy. The normal consumer (the ones most companies target) are neither. I suspect that Games Workshop is aware of this fact too which is why they ignore 99% of the comments that happen online no matter how angry (valid or invalid). You could be asking Games Workshop the same question you just asked Chapterhouse. Regardless, if you go back through commentary on the various Forums (not just this one) you will find at least one pro-Chapterhouse comment for every negative (if not more). I'm kind of in the middle myself. I will buy from ANYONE if the price and product is right. There are far more people who buy for THESE reasons than any other.


Even if what you were doing was legal, and the results of the case dispute this, it doesn't necessarily make it the correct thing to do for a business to "stick to its guns" when this interferes with its base goal of maximising sales/revenue.

What makes you think sticking to his guns hasn't already improved his sales? We are in the dark as to the pros and cons of Chapterhouse's behavior affecting his business. While I have no doubt the legal proceedings have been a pain in the butt, I expect the publicity and free exposure has had a certain effect. To use anecdotal evidence, I had never heard of Chapterhouse until this whole mess started. I went and looked and found some things I wanted to buy (and did). As a result, at least some of Chapterhouse's sales in the last two years came directly as a byproduct of this situation. It is very unlikely I am the only person falling under that grouping.


Especially when all but guaranteeing legal intervention from the company whose product your products are designed to complement. It seemed at the time and still does a strange risk to take when it’s your livelihood at stake unless it was a crusade to validate a strongly held view.

It seems strange to you because you don't have the facts. I expect that the numbers on his end are just fine because judging by his comments, he seems a pretty cautious monetary fella. He doesn't take risk either. The costs of his product aren't bargain basement. They are cheaper than Games Workshop because I can target what I want, but that doesn't make them cheap. Chapterhouse seems to make very tactical, methodical steps (from my perspective) economically, and that kind of approach tends (in my experience) to go through every aspect of a business when true. All we can do is guess, but I suspect Chapterhouse is doing just fine.


I am genuinely interested in why you didn't take the easier path that would have saved you the couple of years of stress and lost opportunities with your business. It’s not a risk I would have taken with my family.

Again, I doubt it has equated to lost opportunities, since conventional business wisdom says it probably opened up far more. Your other comments there are kind of creepy. They come strangely close to a passive-aggressive threat. I know they are not since you are not affilitated with Games Workshop, but they sound a lot like comments the bad guy in a movie makes. :)

"I don't know about you bub... but if it were me.... I dont' know if I would have put my family at risk like that." It only sounds funny and ominous following the context that he means to appeal. All that humor aside, I'm curious about your curiosity. It doesn't sound genuine. It sounds like passive-aggressive garbage complete with leading questions and a very clear moral you wish to espouse.

[rle68]

^well said thanks you said it for me

and those scibor minis are freaking cool.. thats why id use them over some of the garbage gw puts out.. im sorry their finecast line is crap

[LostInTheDark]

"I don't know about you bub... but if it were me.... I dont' know if I would have put my family at risk like that." It only sounds funny and ominous following the context that he means to appeal. All that humor aside, I'm curious about your curiosity. It doesn't sound genuine. It sounds like passive-aggressive garbage complete with leading questions and a very clear moral you wish to espouse.

Or I could just be genuinely interested. As I said in a previous post I'm a customer of CHS and the same as you I will buy from anyone offering a product I want. I’m not trying to push a moral judgement on what choices he made, that’s why there are courts. I'm just curious why he decided to take a stand given the risks rather than follow the pattern of other similar manufacturers. In his reply to my other comment he did suggest that I walk in his shoes, that was all I was trying to do.

From other CHS posts I got the impression that CHS had been forced to delay doing what they wanted to do by the court case, but lacking your business insight I must obviously be wrong.

I'm sorry if you don't like the way I structure my comments, you could always ignore them if you find them offensive or creepy.

[Caitsidhe]

Or I could just be genuinely interested. As I said in a previous post I'm a customer of CHS and the same as you I will buy from anyone offering a product I want. I’m not trying to push a moral judgement on what choices he made, that’s why there are courts. I'm just curious why he decided to take a stand given the risks rather than follow the pattern of other similar manufacturers. In his reply to my other comment he did suggest that I walk in his shoes, that was all I was trying to do.

From other CHS posts I got the impression that CHS had been forced to delay doing what they wanted to do by the court case, but lacking your business insight I must obviously be wrong.

I'm sorry if you don't like the way I structure my comments, you could always ignore them if you find them offensive or creepy.

You don't have to restructure anything for me. I was just pointing out how it sounds in the text void... i.e. kind of creepy. The curiosity didn't come across genuine because the questions were so leading. You could have just asked, "Can you give us your perspectives and why you did things?" You came across more as if you were moralizing than asking questions. And if you do buy from Chapterhouse (the same as me) how on Earth can you ask those questions. From a moral and ethical standpoint, if you believe they are doing something wrong, you are aiding and abetting it. :)

[LostInTheDark]

You don't have to restructure anything for me. I was just pointing out how it sounds in the text void... i.e. kind of creepy. The curiosity didn't come across genuine because the questions were so leading. You could have just asked, "Can you give us your perspectives and why you did things?" You came across more as if you were moralizing than asking questions. And if you do buy from Chapterhouse (the same as me) how on Earth can you ask those questions. From a moral and ethical standpoint, if you believe they are doing something wrong, you are aiding and abetting it. :)

I didn't make the original comment for you though. It was in reply to Nick's reply to my comment that he had the courtesy to make.

Am I a hypocrite for disagreeing with the way CHS did some things, but still buying stuff? Perhaps, but I don't agree with a lot of things that GW do either and still buy their stuff.

I think you're reading a bit much into my comments, they weren't intended to be some moral drama. I've always thought the whole episode was unneccessary and put my thoughts down to that effect. I normally wouldn't bother but it's not often you get a change to get some dialogue from the person who made the choices.

Does adding a smiley face or two make a post less judgemental/aggressive? Perhaps that was what was missing from my post :)

[Caitsidhe]

Does adding a smiley face or two make a post less judgemental/aggressive? Perhaps that was what was missing from my post :)

It never hurts.

[chapterhousestudios]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

For almost everyone the job they do is to provide for their family, no different to you. We are defined by the choices we make.

So you have legal advice saying that what you are doing is within the law and you have your business up and running, gaining some traction. You advertise your new releases on forums such as this.

The purpose of your business is to sell stuff. You start to receive a fair amount of negative commentary from strangers as you put it, some of who know nothing, some who provide an informed opinion.

This is the bit I don't understand. To step into your shoes, these people are your perspective customers, many of whom stated that they would not purchase from your business due the way you were presenting your products. If it was me I would have stepped back and looked at the root cause of the negativity and adjusted my business practice to try and not alginate my prospective customers.

Even if what you were doing was legal, and the results of the case dispute this, it doesn't necessarily make it the correct thing to do for a business to "stick to its guns" when this interferes with its base goal of maximising sales/revenue.

Especially when all but guaranteeing legal intervention from the company whose product your products are designed to complement. It seemed at the time and still does a strange risk to take when it’s your livelihood at stake unless it was a crusade to validate a strongly held view.

I am genuinely interested in why you didn't take the easier path that would have saved you the couple of years of stress and lost opportunities with your business. It’s not a risk I would have taken with my family.

Looking back now, would you have made the same choices?

Running a business is much like life in general, you can not possibly make everyone happy, and to try to do so will never end well.

I wont go into details pertaining to numbers but Chapterhouse is doing well even with the people who do not agree with how the business is ran. Another point to consider, the people who have been very negatively outspoken against how our products are marketed, would they ever have made purchases, is that truly a customer lost or not? It can drive a person crazy trying to figure it all out.

What I have learned is there are people on the internet, much like real life, who will never give you an inch.

To your question on would I have done things differently? Yes, some things I would have done differently. I also believe that GW has a false sense of how IP law works, and I would have always tried to market and describe our items legally, saying how something is compatible with etc. I know for fact that GW does not understand that this is completely legal and insist on artificially controlling how 3rd party companies describe our products. I have heard from the top people at GW and their marketing philosophy is flawed legally and they do want a "bully" level of control on the market. They would never have been happy with my business in the market place.

The largest consequence of the GW episode (besides a very personal one I wont extrapolate on) is that we have had to put energy into the case that otherwise could have been put into new products. It would be safe to say for 2.5 years we have been on the side-lines as far as products go, and many many competitors have jumped on board since then. I have some catching up to do, and I am sure that stalling CHS was surely a plan of GWs from the start.

[Deadlift]

I will be honest whilst not a huge fan of all the CHS products personally, I am finding it refreshing that your willing to have open dialogue with us on the forums. I'm guessing you have to be pretty thick skinned but it's definitely worth while. Personally I had a rather ignorant, pre-conceived idea about CHS which has been changed for the better. Kudos to you for that.

[Mike Dunford]

Mr. Dunford What is Rule 59? I'm only familiar with rule 34. 35 and 63...

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 59 governs motions for new trials, and motions to alter or amend a judgment. These motions are rarely granted, but they get filed often enough that the judge listed them as topics to be discussed at the first post-trial status conference. The deadline for these motions is 15 July, so we'll know if any are being filed by then.

[Chris Copeland]

I will be honest whilst not a huge fan of all the CHS products personally, I am finding it refreshing that your willing to have open dialogue with us on the forums. I'm guessing you have to be pretty thick skinned but it's definitely worth while. Personally I had a rather ignorant, pre-conceived idea about CHS which has been changed for the better. Kudos to you for that. Deadlift, my brother, I must say: you always come off as the most reasonable person on the Interwebz! I hope you come to Texas some time and roll some dice with me! Cope

[Apollinarius]

How can you legally use someones trademarks? This is gonna be interesting.
Share price predictions any one?

Basically, Chapterhouse can put on their website "Compatible with Games Workshop(tm) products" or "Add to your Warhammer 40,000(tm) Space Marine collection."

Honestly, I think it's a beneficial ruling for both companies. It's not like Chapterhouse will be seeling their own versions of GW miniatures. The things that Chapterhouse is selling make buying more miniatures from GW appealing because you don't have to shell out $20 for 10 DA shoulderpads.

[rle68]

the thing that is bothering me now about gw and its practices are the mass amounts of direct only sales cutting out local indy shops.. add on to that they sell a 3 bike set and if you want the upgrade its another 8.25.. now i built my own and they look as good as theirs but mine was free

i will not buy stuff that is direct only.. thats a no go.. if i have to buy it online or on fleabay so be it.. i will give not one dime more to gw than is necessary...they can take their direct only approach and shove it

and as far as CHS goes i have bought a few things from them if i see something i like i will buy again

[Mr Mystery]

So in short.....you show solidarity with your Indy (good on you, genuinely. Use it or lose it) by shopping online anyway?

Erm....

[Caitsidhe]

So in short.....you show solidarity with your Indy (good on you, genuinely. Use it or lose it) by shopping online anyway?

Erm....

This is pretty much how I feel. If what I need can be gotten through my LGS, that is where I buy it. *If it is something Games Workshop has but won't let the LGS sell it... well I'm not buying it from them either. I will buy a third party model, make my own conversion, or wait for it to show up on Ebay.

[Mr Mystery]

This is pretty much how I feel. If what I need can be gotten through my LGS, that is where I buy it.

And rightfully so.

I support my local GW, and do 99% of my hobby shopping there. Being 5 minutes up the road is as convenient as can be, short of taking over my friend Zoe's flat, which is directly above it. Former staffer with a good rapport with my now former manager, and its where I game.

Doesn't matter it's GW. If it was an Indy, I'd still show the same loyalty.

Question about indies..... When it comes to Direct Only stuff, do any place a 'group' order through the store? Granted they won't make money on it, but it gets bodies in the store, and that's bodies you can sell to. Every reason to return is another potential sale.

[rle68]

the thing that is bothering me now about gw and its practices are the mass amounts of direct only sales cutting out local indy shops.. add on to that they sell a 3 bike set and if you want the upgrade its another 8.25.. now i built my own and they look as good as theirs but mine was free

i will not buy stuff that is direct only.. thats a no go.. if i have to buy it online or on fleabay so be it.. i will give not one dime more to gw than is necessary...they can take their direct only approach and shove it

and as far as CHS goes i have bought a few things from them if i see something i like i will buy again

nvm

[rle68]

So in short.....you show solidarity with your Indy (good on you, genuinely. Use it or lose it) by shopping online anyway?

Erm....


takes you exactly how long to figure out i have to buy online when my lgs cant get stuf from gw.. genius sheer genius

[weeble1000]

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 59 governs motions for new trials, and motions to alter or amend a judgment. These motions are rarely granted, but they get filed often enough that the judge listed them as topics to be discussed at the first post-trial status conference. The deadline for these motions is 15 July, so we'll know if any are being filed by then.

What you are talking about is Judgment as a Matter of Law (JMOL) and Renewed Judgment as a Matter of Law. JMOL used to be "Directed Verdict" and Renewed JMOL used to be "Judgment Notwithstanding the Verdict." Now it is just JMOL and renewed JMOL.

The process is thus:

Motion for Summary Judgment (MSJ) takes place before trial.

The argument is that the Court should decide an issue as a matter of law, which means there is no triable issue of fact. In other words, they fact finder (the jury) has no facts to find, or given the facts (viewed in the light most favorable to the non-moving party) no reasonable jury could find other than X.

JMOL is essentially a MSJ made after the opposing party rests its case in chief. The idea is that now that the Court has heard all of the opposing party's evidence, the Court should render judgement as a matter of law based on the extant evidence as that is the only evidence the fact finder can possibly have. If, based on the evidence presented, no reasonable jury could find other than X, it is proper to grant JMOL.

Renewed JMOL takes place (generally) 28 days after a verdict is entered. It is a renewal of the JMOL filed at closing of the opposing party's case in chief, and may be amended or revised. You will note, of course, that both parties filed JMOL motions during the course of the trial.

Now, in practice, Federal Judges are reluctant to grant JMOL motions because parties are able to renew said motions post jury verdict. The reasoning for this is eminently practical. If a Judge grants a JMOL and is reversed at the appellate court, the relevant issues are remanded for a new trial. If, however, the jury finds in favor of one party or the other, it can make the need to grant JMOL irrelevant. So the Courts generally allow the jury to come to a verdict before ruling on JMOL. This greatly reduces the chances of remand, which saves a great deal of time and money for all concerned.

If you want to know what the Renewed JMOL motions will probably look like, you can take a look at the JMOL motions already submitted to the Court. It is generally quite likely that Renewed JMOL motions will be substantively similar, as the facts don't change very much, if at all, from the time the JMOL is filed to the time Renewed JMOL is filed. However, trials are very busy, time and labor intensive affiars, so Renewed JMOL may change a bit. They may also change due to the jury verdict. If the jury's verdict renders moving for JMOL irrelevant, there is obviously no need to make such a motion post verdict, and this is as I mentioned part of the reason parties are allowed to renew JMOL post verdict.

[Mr Mystery]

takes you exactly how long to figure out i have to buy online when my lgs cant get stuf from gw.. genius sheer genius

I'd have thought full solidarity would have meant not buying it at all...

But hey ho. We can't all make sense all the time.

[LordGrise]

I take the same attitude as Caitsidhe. I support my local indie store, which is Dibbles in San Antonio. If they can't get it for me, then I'll either do without, or modbuild/scratchbuild, or third party my needs.

[chapterhousestudios]

I will be honest whilst not a huge fan of all the CHS products personally, I am finding it refreshing that your willing to have open dialogue with us on the forums. I'm guessing you have to be pretty thick skinned but it's definitely worth while. Personally I had a rather ignorant, pre-conceived idea about CHS which has been changed for the better. Kudos to you for that.

Thank you sir.

I do not think everyone will be a fan of our products, in fact I welcome good criticism and you will never see me lashing out at real critiques. Unfortunately the internet lets people feel like they are not accountable for how they treat others. So the Haters do Hate, and lie with no consequence. All I can try to do is display I am not at all like that.

[Deadlift]

That's cool :)
Just had a quick browse on the site and was wondering if your no longer doing the tech marine conversion beamer. I couldn't find it. I'm sure it was you guys that made it.

[Mike Dunford]

What you are talking about is Judgment as a Matter of Law (JMOL) and Renewed Judgment as a Matter of Law. JMOL used to be "Directed Verdict" and Renewed JMOL used to be "Judgment Notwithstanding the Verdict." Now it is just JMOL and renewed JMOL.

Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I'm a current 2L, so I am (I promise) more familiar with the Federal Rules than it might have appeared from the very sketchy explanation I provided in the earlier post. I haven't had a chance to read the JMOL motions yet, so apologies in advance if the question I'm about to ask is something that is covered more there.

Do you have any thoughts on if/how the jury verdict interacts with the judge's earlier decision on the copyright eligibility of the space marine shoulder pad itself? As I read the SJ order, the judge found that despite a copyright office ruling to the contrary, the shoulderpad itself is copyright eligible. The jury found that a number of Chapterhouse's shoulderpads infringed GW's copyrights, including Chapterhouse's versions of the generic shoulderpad. However, the jury also found that a number of the Chapterhouse shoulderpads were not infringing. That jury decision strikes me as definitely confusing and possibly inconsistent.

Thanks.

[chapterhousestudios]

That's cool :)
Just had a quick browse on the site and was wondering if your no longer doing the tech marine conversion beamer. I couldn't find it. I'm sure it was you guys that made it.

Put that item in the "weird and made no sense" jury rulings, Im hoping it gets appealed successfully.

[Caitsidhe]

Put that item in the "weird and made no sense" jury rulings, Im hoping it gets appealed successfully.

Me too. I want some more Hersey Era Jetpacks. :)

[daboarder]

Me too. I want some more Hersey Era Jetpacks. :)

Then quit whinging and buy them?

Oh you wanted cheap stolen knock offs....


Put that item in the "weird and made no sense" jury rulings, Im hoping it gets appealed successfully.

Out of curiosity could you explain why it made no sense?

Or is this just a case of they disagreed with you therefore "it made no sense"

If you cannot due to you pending appeal then that's fine.

[LostInTheDark]

Running a business is much like life in general, you can not possibly make everyone happy, and to try to do so will never end well.

I wont go into details pertaining to numbers but Chapterhouse is doing well even with the people who do not agree with how the business is ran. Another point to consider, the people who have been very negatively outspoken against how our products are marketed, would they ever have made purchases, is that truly a customer lost or not? It can drive a person crazy trying to figure it all out.

What I have learned is there are people on the internet, much like real life, who will never give you an inch.

To your question on would I have done things differently? Yes, some things I would have done differently. I also believe that GW has a false sense of how IP law works, and I would have always tried to market and describe our items legally, saying how something is compatible with etc. I know for fact that GW does not understand that this is completely legal and insist on artificially controlling how 3rd party companies describe our products. I have heard from the top people at GW and their marketing philosophy is flawed legally and they do want a "bully" level of control on the market. They would never have been happy with my business in the market place.

The largest consequence of the GW episode (besides a very personal one I wont extrapolate on) is that we have had to put energy into the case that otherwise could have been put into new products. It would be safe to say for 2.5 years we have been on the side-lines as far as products go, and many many competitors have jumped on board since then. I have some catching up to do, and I am sure that stalling CHS was surely a plan of GWs from the start.

There never will be anyway to determine lost or gained sales. I think this was a special case though. I can't remember a more polarising issue in recent gaming times.

It’s been good to hear from one of the involved parties directly as it provides a perspective that isn't normally available to the internet rabble like me :)

Thanks again for taking the time to reply and all the best.

[Caitsidhe]

Then quit whinging and buy them?

Oh you wanted cheap stolen knock offs....

I have both types, some bits from Games Workshop and those I got from Chapterhouse. In this particular case, Chapterhouse has the superior product. They aren't any cheaper either. ;)

[chapterhousestudios]

Then quit whinging and buy them?

Oh you wanted cheap stolen knock offs....



Out of curiosity could you explain why it made no sense?

Or is this just a case of they disagreed with you therefore "it made no sense"

If you cannot due to you pending appeal then that's fine.

There was no other product out there like it either in artwork or in miniature form before we conceptualized ours. GW claimed our product infringed on their FW Astral Claws character, even though ours existed a good year before that mini ever saw the public eye. That they claimed it infringed the idea of a conversion beamer was their only motion to the jury.

When I say GWs idea, I mean the text or rules talking about a weapon that gets more powerful dependent on the range. I dont think there is any artwork of a GW conversion beamer that in any way resembles our version of the beamer.

So how the jury ruled that the Conversion Beamer and Harness kit infringed GWs text and rules about one puzzles me.

[daboarder]

There was no other product out there like it either in artwork or in miniature form before we conceptualized ours. GW claimed our product infringed on their FW Astral Claws character, even though ours existed a good year before that mini ever saw the public eye. That they claimed it infringed the idea of a conversion beamer was their only motion to the jury.

When I say GWs idea, I mean the text or rules talking about a weapon that gets more powerful dependent on the range. I dont think there is any artwork of a GW conversion beamer that in any way resembles our version of the beamer.

So how the jury ruled that the Conversion Beamer and Harness kit infringed GWs text and rules about one puzzles me.

You mean this non-existant model?

http://fourstrandshobby.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ConversionBeamer1.jpg

is younger than this one,

http://www.chapterhousestudios.com/pics/june2011/UPfullConversionBeamer.jpg

[Mike Dunford]

There was no other product out there like it either in artwork or in miniature form before we conceptualized ours. GW claimed our product infringed on their FW Astral Claws character, even though ours existed a good year before that mini ever saw the public eye. That they claimed it infringed the idea of a conversion beamer was their only motion to the jury.

Less than six months, actually. Based on the various new product announcement, you released yours mid-to-late June, 2011. I ordered FWs figure that had one in mid-December of that year.

In terms of the infringement, while I was (obviously) not on the jury, I suspect that the rest of the harness had a lot to do with things. Especially the lifting claw, which seems to be remarkably similar to the ones that come with a number of the GW techmarines and servitors.

[Mike Dunford]

You mean this non-existant model?

http://fourstrandshobby.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ConversionBeamer1.jpg

is younger than this one,

http://www.chapterhousestudios.com/pics/june2011/UPfullConversionBeamer.jpg

Hmmmm. Let's see...

The mounting point is obviously quite different (hand-held versus harness mount), the end non-business end of the weapon is clearly distinct, and the overall shape is also different. On the other hand, both weapons have plasma weapon-type heat sink coils, both have a business end that tapers to a point or cone shape, both have a loop of cable on the side away from the heat sink, and both even appear to have 3 rivits near the business end.

Yeah, I'd have to say that there's some substantial similarity between those two weapons.

[lattd]

I would say they are different enough in the overall impression they give. There's a fine balance in how detailed a comparison you do.

[Psychosplodge]

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 59 governs motions for new trials, and motions to alter or amend a judgment. These motions are rarely granted, but they get filed often enough that the judge listed them as topics to be discussed at the first post-trial status conference. The deadline for these motions is 15 July, so we'll know if any are being filed by then.

Thanks



I support my local GW, and do 99% of my hobby shopping there. Being 5 minutes up the road is as convenient as can be, short of taking over my friend Zoe's flat, which is directly above it.



Mount an invasion!

[Wolfshade]

Mount an invasion!

Is zoe amanable to having a house guest? Perhaps you could move in, cover costs, make get her to make you a sandwich or two, in return you could get things from tall cupboards and openjars.

[Psychosplodge]

Maybe share bodyheat in the cold cold winter?

[Wolfshade]

No, you know my views on such things

[Psychosplodge]

I just said share bodyheat, your mind :rolleyes:

[Wolfshade]

Nothing is quite as cold as women's feet during the night.

[daboarder]

Its not so much their temperature, so much as its where they're put.

[Psychosplodge]

Except maybe their heart when you come in drunk two hours late?

[Wolfshade]

Its not so much their temperature, so much as its where they're put.

That is a good question, you are both lying in bed then suddenly they are in the middle of your back, how on earth do they get there?!


Except maybe their heart when you come in drunk two hours late?

Any drunken state is met with an icy glare, I now don't even attempt to get into bed, just use one of the spares...

[Psychosplodge]

That is a good question, you are both lying in bed then suddenly they are in the middle of your back, how on earth do they get there?!



Any drunken state is met with an icy glare, I now don't even attempt to get into bed, just use one of the spares...

I never really considered that? it's a good question. I know when she's cold it's like i've got a limpit across one half the body, and you think reclaiming duvet is difficult? :D

Being exiled merely for drunkeness? seems harsh.

[Wolfshade]

Trying to reclaim duvet is an impossibility...

The exile is because I snoore after beer

[Mr Mystery]

Is zoe amanable to having a house guest? Perhaps you could move in, cover costs, make get her to make you a sandwich or two, in return you could get things from tall cupboards and openjars.

Not really. Besides. She's Norwegian.

She is on point to tell me if she's moving out though. Massive flats for cheap price? YES PLEASE!

[Wolfshade]

What's wrong with being Norwegian? (unless you are entering teh Eurovision song contest...)

[Psychosplodge]

He means she's too pretty ;)

At least you've got that lined up for even nearer gaming :D

[Wolfshade]

Perhaps she would be interested in wargaming (assuming that she doesn't already)

[Mr Mystery]

He means she's too pretty ;)

At least you've got that lined up for even nearer gaming :D

Dude. Her sons are biggerer than me now. Not confident I can drop them! Besides, she's Norwegian. She'd just beat me up.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

And eat your heart!

[Wildeybeast]

Well, they have to find something to entertain them during those long winter nights.

[Mr Mystery]

It's okay lads.

I can distract her with booze!

[Wolfshade]

A nice bottle of Akvavit.