LEGALWATCH: Games Workshop vs Chapterhouse Verdict

[Bigred]

We have a verdict!

Some initial notes:
This is a Jury Verdict, and has not yet become a Final Judgement

Breaking down the counts along the different categories we have:

Copyright Claims
160 claims alleged against CHS
-GW won on 1/3 of the claims, including items such as CHS' Powerfists
-CHS won on 2/3 of the claims, including the use of the underlying shape and size of GW Shoulderpads.

General Trademark Claims
9 claims alleged against CHS
-CHS won all 9 claims, including either no infringement, or fair use of the GW trademarks on CHS' website.

Disputed Trademark Claims
21 disputed trademark claims alleged against CHS
CHS won 11 claims
GW won 10 claims

GW Trademarks ruled "Previously Used in Commerce" Claims
61 claims alleged against CHS
CHS won 35 claims
GW won 27

Notable Trends and Individual Products Under Dispute
CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf Arch Tortress

CHS won on some individual products including:
-Jetbike
-Super-heavy walker model
-Lizard Ogre

Damages Awarded:
CHS ordered to pay GW damages of $25,000 USD

Both sides may appeal the ruling.

Thoughts and Implications:
It's looking like however CHS as an entity comes out of this ruling, the implications for the 3rd party industry are profound.

-The ruling of no infringement for the use of the underlying shape and size of GW shoulderpads is now on the legal record.
-Possibly more important is not guilty verdicts on the use of GW trademarks and terms on the CHS website.
-While certain CHS products themselves may disappear from the Earth in the aftermath of this case, it looks like the verdict may have provided a clear blueprint for the 3rd party accessory bits market. One that allows legal use of certain GW trademarks and terms in a way that goes way beyond what Nottingham themselves ever wished to allow.

More details as we get it... Documents will be coming in time.

UPDATE 6/17/2013

Winston & Strawn LLP issue a press release (http://www.winston.com/index.cfm?contentID=30&itemID=4587) on the case:


June 17, 2013

Winston & Strawn Defeats Hundreds of Trademark and Copyright Infringement Claims on Behalf of Pro Bono Client

Cutting-Edge Decision Protects Industries from Litigation Blocking Add-On Products

CHICAGO, IL – In a classic David-versus-Goliath battle, Winston & Strawn LLP represented Chapterhouse Studios LLC on a pro bono basis in a cutting-edge federal trademark and copyright dispute in the Northern District of Illinois (Games Workshop Limited v. Chapterhouse Studios LLC 1:10-cv-8103). The verdict of this jury trial, held in June 2013 before Judge Matthew Kennelly, confirms that copyright and trademark law should not be used to block add-on products. Winston & Strawn has litigated the case since 2010, and co-counsel law firm Marshall Gerstein joined the matter in 2012.

“This was a classic case of trademark and copyright bullying by a much bigger Plaintiff,” said Jennifer Golinveaux, partner in Winston & Strawn’s San Francisco office. “I am proud of the investment made by the firm, and the many attorneys who devoted themselves to making sure the intellectual property laws were not misused to squash a much smaller player.”

Games Workshop manufactures Warhammer 40,000, a tabletop battle game that works with armies of miniature figures and vehicles, while Chapterhouse sells customized add-on parts for the figures and vehicles used in the game. The United Kingdom-based Games Workshop, a company with $200 million per year in revenues, alleged more than 200 claims of copyright and trademark infringement against Chapterhouse, a small business run out of an individual’s garage in Texas. Games Workshop argued that it was seeking a complete shutdown of Chapterhouse’s entire business and although Games Workshop initially sought over $400,000 in damages, by the end of the two-week jury trial, the plaintiff dropped its damages demand to only $25,000.

The jury deliberated for more than two days and found that Chapterhouse could continue to make and sell over a hundred products without fear of copyright infringement. The jury also confirmed that Chapterhouse could continue to use most of Games Workshop’s asserted trademarks when selling compatible parts, including all nine of Games Workshop’s registered trademarks. Together with the summary judgment wins, the jury’s verdict confirmed Chapterhouse can continue to make and sell 111 products that Games Workshop hoped to block using copyright laws, and can continue to use 104 words and phrases that Games Workshop said were trademarked.

Imron Aly, lead trial attorney and partner in Winston & Strawn’s Chicago office added, “It was a pleasure to represent a small entrepreneur like Nicholas Villacci of Chapterhouse, who has a passion for his work and wanted to see his business survive.”

Julianne Hartzell, partner at co-counsel law firm Marshall Gerstein added, “We are proud that we were able to help protect Chapterhouse against the overreaching claims made by Games Workshop in such a substantial trademark and copyright dispute.”

6-27-2013 Motions for Final Judgement
Both parties have submitted their suggested versions of final judgement after the Jury Verdict

4302
Motions for Final Judgement

4300
Games Workshop Motion

4301
CHS Motion

[Nabterayl]

Do we have a link to source material?

[energongoodie]

How can you legally use someones trademarks? This is gonna be interesting.
Share price predictions any one?

[dlust1]

this is good news for the most part, keeping competition alive will make GW strive to produce better quality models and produce them quickly. it may also mean fewer new models released with updated codices.

[Caitsidhe]

Not too shabby. Not too shabby. I suspect Chapterhouse will have little trouble paying those damages and manage to remain solvent. :D They are really irrelevant now. I got what I wanted out of this case. The floodgates are wide! This was a Pandora's box Games Workshop should never have opened.

[Denzark]

So out of those 251 challenged items above, CHS came out on top with 161. I guess CHS are only 35% lying thieving talentless scum then. Hope they enjoy the $25k.

[Wolfshade]

this is good news for the most part, keeping competition alive will make GW strive to produce better quality models and produce them quickly. it may also mean fewer new models released with updated codices.

Sigh, there is competition, it is called Warmachines, Flames of War, Infinity etc.

Once again the hobby is table top war gaming, GW are just one producer. 40k is not the hobby.

In the same way, playing call of duty isn't the hobby, but video gaming is.

[Nabterayl]

How can you legally use someones trademarks? This is gonna be interesting.
Share price predictions any one?
Without seeing the underlying verdict on the specific counts, the general rule is description - "this is a space marine" (when pointing to a space marine), "this fits on a space marine," "I don't like space marines," "I sell space marines" (when legally allowed to do so), things like that.

[Lexington]

Interessin'. Curious what the individual win/losses on those claims look like. It's hard to root for Chapterhouse, given their middling-to-cruddy products and blatant violation of GW trademarks in their sales, but at least this'll provide protection and guidelines for a wider industry that's got far, far more to offer.

[rabscutle]

How can you legally use someones trademarks? This is gonna be interesting.
Share price predictions any one?

By saying "All Games Workshop products mentioned are Trademark Games Workshop" the same way after market product makers have been doing in every other industry since, ya know, ever.

[Nabterayl]

By saying "All Games Workshop products mentioned are Trademark Games Workshop" the same way after market product makers have been doing in every other industry since, ya know, ever.
Depending on how you mean that, that doesn't work. For instance, if I sell shoulder pads that are compatible with <insert GW trademark here>, I can't call them "<trademark> shoulder pads," slap a disclaimer on my shop that "<trademark> is a trademark of Games Workshop" and be done. I am still, in effect, claiming that my shoulder pads are Games Workshops'Attribution isn't a get-out-of-infringement-free card.

I can say, "shoulderpads compatible with <trademark>" because that is a factually true statement. There is really no way to make that statement without using the trademark, so the law allows me to do so. I am still technically using the trademark (I said/printed the word, logo, or whatever), but I am only doing so to make a true statement about the characteristics of my product.

[btk_kilroy_winterhart]

Far to long has GW had a straggle hold on bits for their models, considering that Forgeworld was suppose to fill that void. Let the floodgates open and let the bits flow. As long as the main model and weapons are correct, I see no problems with using bits supplied bu another company.

[Build]

I'm actually very glad GW lost the claim on the Croc ogres, I found out only the other day that GW sued/tried to sue avatars of war for the lizardman sculpt I did, they didn't target any other model (or if they did, they lost the claim), but went straight for mine, which was making me seriously dread the Dragonblood project.

As a company to work for, they are despicable, the way they treat potential employees is disgusting, I've had test sculpts sent to reaper miniatures and had feedback along with other little treats like copies of artwork and $100 of free minis, where as GW have not returned some of the greens I sent them, claiming to have mailed them, only for nothing to arrive.

I'm happy with that part of the result at least, it gives me hope that I can carry on with Lizardman based sculpts for companies like Troll forged and Avatars of war without fear of persecution, especially as I do my best to avoid IP rips.

[Defenestratus]

I'm actually very glad GW lost the claim on the Croc ogres, I found out only the other day that GW sued/tried to sue avatars of war for the lizardman sculpt I did, they didn't target any other model (or if they did, they lost the claim), but went straight for mine, which was making me serious dread the Dragonblood project.

As a company to work for they are despicable, the way they treat potential employees is disgusting, I've had test sculpts sent to reaper miniatures and had feedback along with other little treats like copies of artwork and $100 of free minis, where as GW have not returned some of the greens I sent them, claiming to have mailed them, only for nothing to arrive.

I'm happy with that part of the result at least, it gives me hope that I can carry on with Lizardman based sculpts for companies like Troll forged and Avatars of war without fear of persecution, especially as I do my best to avoid IP rips.

And this is precisely why GW should never have opened that pandora's box.

I'm glad that you now have better legal footing to continue your work.

[lowelife101]

So out of those 251 challenged items above, CHS came out on top with 161. I guess CHS are only 35% lying thieving talentless scum then. Hope they enjoy the $25k.

I could not agree more, no matter the legal ramifications of this verdict, my opinion remains the same. All of these companies have set themselves up to sell parts that should not exist if GW doesn't want them to as it's perfectly clear that these people are bottom feeders abusing the bizarre legal situation of 3rd party parts in other manufacturing sectors. In the end I see this as more closely related to selling a chip based on pre-existing apple ideas that haven't been put into practice yet that makes an iPod operate differently than it does now, as opposed to creating a set of headphones entirely of your own spec and design that happen to work on an ipod. One is abusing the inability to patent common knowledge by skimming some off the top to use an ill fitting expression, the other is inciting fair competition by demonstrating superiority of your design.

Ultimately this is why I have respect for Mantic games but not CHS. Mantic games are making models that are blatantly expy versions of long standing warhammer fantasy, 40k and bloodbowl concepts, however they've gone out of there way to do the right thing and demonstrate that although we are setting ourselves up as competition and we aren't doing anything original, our interpretation of long standing fantastical ideas (and the same ideas IN SPAAAACE) is different enough to be said to be our own. yes it's knockoff war hammer but it's a genuine knockoff, it makes no attempt to deceive or to emulate beyond that of a shared heritage.

[CiaphasCaine]

So out of those 251 challenged items above, CHS came out on top with 161. I guess CHS are only 35% lying thieving talentless scum then. Hope they enjoy the $25k.

I agree entirely

[theHman]

I could not agree more, no matter the legal ramifications of this verdict, my opinion remains the same. All of these companies have set themselves up to sell parts that should not exist if GW doesn't want them to as it's perfectly clear that these people are bottom feeders abusing the bizarre legal situation of 3rd party parts in other manufacturing sectors. In the end I see this as more closely related to selling a chip based on pre-existing apple ideas that haven't been put into practice yet that makes an iPod operate differently than it does now, as opposed to creating a set of headphones entirely of your own spec and design that happen to work on an ipod. One is abusing the inability to patent common knowledge by skimming some off the top to use an ill fitting expression, the other is inciting fair competition by demonstrating superiority of your design.

Bold emphasis mine.

Your argument is invalid.

No offense, but you're being a complete hypocrite with your statements here.
CHS basically makes different headphones that fit GW models than what GW makes.

Using your example, Motorolla, Samsung, HTC, et all would require Apple's permission in order to make smartphones. Even though their products are different than Apples iphone.

Same goes for the after market car parts. All those manufacturers would need Ford, GM, Mercedes, etc... permission. NEWS FLASH: They don't. And neither does CHS. You may not like it, but that's how it is. There's nothing stopping you from starting your own bits business or after car parts business if you wanted to.

Nerd rage away all you want, but you're in the wrong plain and simple.

Welcome to the real world GW. Where your **** DOES STINK!

[TheBitzBarn]

Now this does have implications on there art on websites selling there products too

[Clockwork]

Before people get too excited remember we're still awaiting final judgement, we don't know what things GW won or lost yet specifically and if CHS can even survive having $25K sucked out of their bank account.

Oh, and this ruling only affects future rulings in the US so people in Australia, the UK and Europe? They have to fight their own legal battles.

[40kGamer]

Sigh, there is competition, it is called Warmachines, Flames of War, Infinity etc.

Once again the hobby is table top war gaming, GW are just one producer. 40k is not the hobby.

In the same way, playing call of duty isn't the hobby, but video gaming is.

True... so true... :)

[40kGamer]

As a company to work for, they are despicable, the way they treat potential employees is disgusting, I've had test sculpts sent to reaper miniatures and had feedback along with other little treats like copies of artwork and $100 of free minis, where as GW have not returned some of the greens I sent them, claiming to have mailed them, only for nothing to arrive.

Had a similar experience with them... I finally got my original back broken and missing a piece with no explanation. While I love their games I quite actively dislike the company. Best of luck with your future projects. Enjoy the freedom of better defined legal lines.

[Nabterayl]

If I can interject a bit of humanity here ...

I've used Chapterhouse bits in the past for projects 40K-related and otherwise, and I was glad that they sold something I needed at the time. That said, I almost always prefer Games Workshop's products for projects 40K-related and otherwise, and I want their business to thrive.

That said ...

I think it might profit everybody to remember that this case is not articulating new rules per se. It has always been 100% clear, from the perspective of United States law, that companies can make miniature parts that are compatible with Games Workshop kits and even whole models that players might find compatible with Games Workshop rules. It has always been 100% clear, from the perspective of United States law, that other companies can use Games Workshop trademarks in descriptive ways.*

What has not always been clear is where the border falls between, say, making after-market heads, arms, guns, shoulder pads, and backpacks that are compatible with space marines and simply making after-market space marines. But remember that the border was always there.

In the past, when Games Workshop sent a cease-and-desist letter to a "third-party" manufacturer,** it was always possible for the manufacturer to say, "I'm not doing anything wrong. It has always been 100% clear, from the perspective of United States law, that companies can make miniature parts that are compatible with Games Workshop kits etc." The response, implied or explicit, would be, "Yes, that's true, but are you so sure that you're only doing that that you're willing to meet us in court?" And the answer would almost always be no.

Regardless of which side is right in a dispute like that (and as I said, I am, if anything, on Team GW), that sort of resolution is a loss for the rule of law. People with claims that are in reality meritorious - whether Games Workshop or a 3PM - should never have to back down simply because they aren't sure.

Now we have a case that is not articulating new rules but giving us more guidance on where the boundaries are for the rules that have always been there.*** That is good for the rule of law. People can now send cease and desist orders, and resist cease and desist orders, with greater certainty and accuracy. That is good for the rule of law.

And I for one am in favor of victories for the rule of law, even if it has a business result that makes one or more parties unhappy.

* Which is all anybody has any business doing, really. I don't make tyranid heads. I make heads that look like tyranid heads and fit on tyranid bodies.
** I don't really like that description, since the truth is that these companies make bits that are useful for more than just engaging in the Games Workshop hobby; I've used more than a few customizing roleplaying miniatures, for instance. I can't think of a better term, though.
*** Another reason I'm interested in the details of who won what. Without knowing that, we can't really say what the boundaries are, which is the only interesting thing about this case.

[Psychosplodge]

As I said elsewhere GW never had a chance in an American court :D.

You only have to look at the locations of people on either side of the argument in any of the many threads, and there seems to be a fundamental difference in what people think are acceptable depending what side of the water you live on.

I personally think the Jury got it wrong. But we'll see what happens next.

Question: what would you do if GW withdrew completely from the NA market because of poor IP protection?

[rle68]

How can you legally use someones trademarks? This is gonna be interesting.
Share price predictions any one?

didnt you read? gw doesnt have trademarks for what they claimed they did

[rle68]

As I said elsewhere GW never had a chance in an American court :D.

You only have to look at the locations of people on either side of the argument in any of the many threads, and there seems to be a fundamental difference in what people think are acceptable depending what side of the water you live on.

I personally think the Jury got it wrong. But we'll see what happens next.

Question: what would you do if GW withdrew completely from the NA market because of poor IP protection?

never happen.. not in a million years.. they stop selling north america they close their doors.. this isnt a were better than you thing but i am going to assume north america spends alot more then europe does

[timdp]

Question: what would you do if GW withdrew completely from the NA market because of poor IP protection?

LOL! Of course they are going to dump 50% of their 40K sales...

[Psychosplodge]

About 40% of turnover iirc, Europe as a whole (lol) has a higher population, so probably more potential, plus is more densely populated so costs can be kept lower.

Tesco are doing it, why not GW?

[Clockwork]

didnt you read? gw doesnt have trademarks for what they claimed they did

Didn't you read? It's more complicated than that. And while GW had trademarks some of the rulings say CHS didn't infringe on them. That's not the same thing as not having trademarks.

[rle68]

About 40% of turnover iirc, Europe as a whole (lol) has a higher population, so probably more potential, plus is more densely populated so costs can be kept lower.

Tesco are doing it, why not GW?

just a guess here net worth per capita US 143,727
Europe 10,504

2-1 difference in population Europe over US... drastic difference in income per capita

,

[templarboy]

As I said elsewhere GW never had a chance in an American court :D.

You only have to look at the locations of people on either side of the argument in any of the many threads, and there seems to be a fundamental difference in what people think are acceptable depending what side of the water you live on.

I personally think the Jury got it wrong. But we'll see what happens next.

Question: what would you do if GW withdrew completely from the NA market because of poor IP protection?Could their business stay afloat without the US market? I would be interested to see a break down of how much money is spent in the US on GW stuff versus the rest of the world. Personally, I think they would be a pale shade of what they are now without the massive US market. Just a side thought, most of the 3rd party parts folks I have bought from are not based in the United States. They have been out of the UK (Anvil, Victoria), Poland (Maxmini, Kromlech, Scibor), and Russia(Some guy that sold me a Doom, I forget). CHS and Paulson Games are the only US based ones I can even come up with. Let's cast the blame where it belongs. You might not be bashing the US but the bigotry is getting a bit tiresome on these topics. I could start making comments about the predatory actions of GW and blame the British system just as easily. The US system is not to blame for this debacle. Now the law is better defined here. Let's see what happens.

[Psychosplodge]

Means skew everything. i'm sure the 1% will buy loads of 40k.


The US system is not to blame for this debacle. Now the law is better defined here. Let's see what happens.
You may say that. Under your system I'm entitled to disagree :D
There's always been plenty of third party manufacturers out there, all over the place.

But as I said have you read all the GW/chs threads? The just seems a complete difference of what seems acceptable depending on geography, and the jury is from the US. I'm honestly surprised GW have come out with it as well as they have...

[templarboy]

Means skew everything. i'm sure the 1% will buy loads of 40k.


You may say that. Under your system I'm entitled to disagree :D
There's always been plenty of third party manufacturers out there, all over the place.

But as I said have you read all the GW/chs threads? The just seems a complete difference of what seems acceptable depending on geography, and the jury is from the US. I'm honestly surprised GW have come out with it as well as they have...
I have read it all. If you are implying that I am new here, post count means nothing. Are you implying that a US jury is somehow inferior to a jury in your country (where ever that is)or that they would be unfair in some way? Just come out with your anti-US bias. Don't be shy.

[rle68]

I have read it all. If you are implying that I am new here, post count means nothing. Are you implying that a US jury is somehow inferior to a jury in your country (where ever that is)or that they would be unfair in some way? Just come out with your anti-US bias. Don't be shy.

im with you...^

[Psychosplodge]

I just meant its clear in all the arguments(and theres been many) that the US based contributors are far more accepting of what chs do.
If I was being anti US I would do it quite bluntly.
And I stated months ago that I thought a us jury would have a US bias, Nab or Ciatsidhe (i think) disagreed on the basis that yanks are quite fond of England, and have no brand loyalty or loyalty to US based manufacturer over a better deal/product, hence proliferation of chinese imports.

post edit :Also I pretty much disagree with trial by jury. As the jury of your peers often isn't.

[Caitsidhe]

A lot of these people were hedging their bets before it ever even got going. They were saying how Chapterhouse was going to get destroyed BUT if that for some reason didn't come to pass, it was only because of the failing of American Courts. :) It couldn't possibly be because Games Workshop simply was wrong or hired incompetent Flying Monkeys to represent them. For my own part, at least, I didn't hedge anything. I stated exactly what I thought would happen. Let's take a look at that shall we:

1. I said that it would be a split decision that primarily favored Chapterhouse.

*Hrm... let me see... ah... here we are... split decision which HEAVILY favors Chapterhouse.

2. I said that Chapterhouse would receive a slap on the wrist.

*25K is a very light penalty indeed.

3. I stated that I didn't think they win any of their Trademark thing.

*It doesn't appear they got any of those. :)


You could continue to try and blame EVERYONE but Games Workshop, or you could simply accept the fact that they didn't have a good case. I assure you that GW's legal cost far outstrip what they got awarded.

[Psychosplodge]

Oh no I blame GW's incompetence. I disagree with the outcome, but I think it's more their incompetence than CHS being in the right.

Anyway it's 1:30am and I've got drink to sleep off
and i'm feeling very much :D
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Rather selfish them doing it this late.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think withdrawing from the US market would actually do anything. Refusing to sell to in the US market would not make it very much harder for US entities either to copy or design compatible kits for GW products. It also wouldn't cause the market for US entities to make those designs dry up. So withdrawing from the US market would not provide much in the way of protection.

[rle68]

I'm hardly an expert on English law, but I don't think withdrawing from the US market would actually do anything. Refusing to sell to in the US market would not make it very much harder for US entities either to copy or design compatible kits for GW products. It also wouldn't cause the market for US entities to make those designs dry up. So withdrawing from the US market would not provide much in the way of protection.

Think of the black market that would appear overnight here?

[Clockwork]

This one's for BigRed: Any sign of the Final Judgement yet?

[weeble1000]

As I said elsewhere GW never had a chance in an American court :D.

You only have to look at the locations of people on either side of the argument in any of the many threads, and there seems to be a fundamental difference in what people think are acceptable depending what side of the water you live on.

I personally think the Jury got it wrong. But we'll see what happens next.

Question: what would you do if GW withdrew completely from the NA market because of poor IP protection?

If GW gave up 54 million dollars per year in revenue, I would call the company insane and watch it die. That's the revenue that Andy Jones testified to in deposition, if I recall correctly: 54 million per yer in US sales with an average of 50% being solely related to Warhammer 40,000 products; not including Black Library, Forge World, etc.

Off the top of my head, that seems to be a cool 25% of GW's total annual revenue. GW needs the North American market.

[ozybonza]

I'd just like to comment on the whole US vs. UK courts argument here (disclaimer: I'm Australian and therefore neutral in this argument :) )

UK and US have different IP laws. UK seems to slant more in favor of IP holders - just look at ISP torrent site blocking as an example. The US on the other hand has more emphasis on context and fair use, allowing various exceptions to copyright etc.

Both countries have different views on the purpose, scope and limitations of intellectual property. Disparaging the US courts because they have a different set of laws and ruled substantively against GW is like a North Korean going to the UK and complaining that someone who insulted Kim Jong Un wasn't immediately interned in a labour camp.

[scadugenga]

So out of those 251 challenged items above, CHS came out on top with 161. I guess CHS are only 35% lying thieving talentless scum then. Hope they enjoy the $25k.

But you realize, then, that GW would be 65% talentless, lying d-bag scum, right? ;)

Edit/Addendum:

So I'm not too surprised at the verdict. I think GW overstepped their authority, and finally got caught. Good on CHS and their legal team. C&D orders should hopefully backfire. CHS' early arrogance probably hurt them significantly.

Though I'm surprised at the Dark Elf bit. That's been a D&D trope for decades.

$25k is nothing to GW, and they've likely incurred much more than that in billable hours. (At $150-$300/hr a 5 minute phone call is going to run $12.50 - $25.00--and just imagine copy fees!) However, it could have a serious impact on a garage-business like CHS. It's 1/8th of the amount they earned in the last several years selling the litigated products. (IIRC)

Both sides may appeal, I doubt either will. CHS could've been slapped down harder, and GW's legal team is not the sharpest bunch; an appeal could hurt them further.

[Nabterayl]

(At $150-$300/hr a 5 minute phone call is going to run $12.50 - $25.00--and just imagine copy fees!) However, it could have a serious impact on a garage-business like CHS. It's 1/8th of the amount they earned in the last several years selling the litigated products. (IIRC)

Both sides may appeal, I doubt either will. CHS could've been slapped down harder, and GW's legal team is not the sharpest bunch; an appeal could hurt them further.
Heh, you've never worked at a major law firm, have you? $150-300 an hour is the rate we charge for our first year attorneys, my friend. I would be utterly shocked if both sides' legal bills didn't have seven figures in them.

As for GW's legal team, Winston & Strawn is one of the top IP litigation firms in the United States. I think they were mostly dealt a losing hand, through some combination of their client's behavior and their inherent position.

[TashaG]

Means skew everything. i'm sure the 1% will buy loads of 40k.


You may say that. Under your system I'm entitled to disagree :D
There's always been plenty of third party manufacturers out there, all over the place.

But as I said have you read all the GW/chs threads? The just seems a complete difference of what seems acceptable depending on geography, and the jury is from the US. I'm honestly surprised GW have come out with it as well as they have...

What you are missing is that in the US and otherwhere there has ALWAYS been a huge market for parts that fit other company's models. Whether those models are Historical WWII Military or Automotive. Is the Company that makes a movie correct cockpit for a Starfighter really infringing on some company's IP? Probably, but they are also generating sales for the model that is being modified by their parts. Some companies even make models of things that a bigger model company would never make (ie Docking station for a Federation Starship, or Spacestation shuttles etc.) That's all that most of the bit manufacturers are doing here. Most every kit on Chapterhouse's website is designed as an addon kit to an existing GW kit (ie Female Torsos for Imp Guard, Eldar jetbike upgrade kits, Wheeled Chimera conversions etc). Those are all things that drive a GW sale. That's why many people are on the Bits maker's side we don't see the problem. The Truescale Marines might be pushing the line, but I guess we will see.

BTW How the hell can they trademark a generic term like "Dark Elf"? WTF!?

[Nabterayl]

I don't think Psycho is missing that. I think he's absolutely right that there's a noticeable geographic breakdown in ... if not who people are rooting for, at least in people's gut feelings about this sort of thing.

EDIT: Did they lose on the dark elf on a trademark claim? Or was it found that CHS' specific "dark elf" miniature was a copy of a Games Workshop one? The latter seems much less remarkable than the former. The fact that dark elves are scènes à faire doesn't make it impossible to copy a specific dark elf product.

BIGRED REPLY: CHS lost on their "Dark Elf" Model (the model was found to be infringing on GW in some capacity)

[TashaG]

I don't think Psycho is missing that. I think he's absolutely right that there's a noticeable geographic breakdown in ... if not who people are rooting for, at least in people's gut feelings about this sort of thing.

EDIT: Did they lose on the dark elf on a trademark claim? Or was it found that CHS' specific "dark elf" miniature was a copy of a Games Workshop one? The latter seems much less remarkable than the former. The fact that dark elves are scènes à faire doesn't make it impossible to copy a specific dark elf product.

I think that Americans are used to the Idea of Fair Use. Also our culture frowns on the big and powerful picking on the little guy. So this case hits our Cultural biases in both ways.

[rle68]

considering Tolkien used the term dark elf in the 1930's id love to see who copyrighted it and who infringed on who? if any as nab said we dont know the context yet

[timdp]

As for GW's legal team, Winston & Strawn is one of the top IP litigation firms in the United States. I think they were mostly dealt a losing hand, through some combination of their client's behavior and their inherent position.

Winston & Strawn is CHS's law firm. GW is represented by Foley and Lardner.

[Nabterayl]

Winston & Strawn is CHS's law firm. GW is represented by Foley and Lardner.
Ah, sorry, that was a typo. My statement still stands, though. Foley & Lardner is one of the best IP litigation firms in the country; they're definitely tier-one material. Jonathan Moskin is one of the acknowledged authorities in his field, both in terms of practice and theory.

That doesn't mean that they didn't mess up, or couldn't have messed up, but I'm inclined to think that the lion's share of the blame lies elsewhere - Games Workshop itself, the actual merits of the case, or both. When two law firms clash that both punch at each other's weight class, that's actually when the merits of a case are most likely to come out.

[scadugenga]

Heh, you've never worked at a major law firm, have you? $150-300 an hour is the rate we charge for our first year attorneys, my friend. I would be utterly shocked if both sides' legal bills didn't have seven figures in them.

As for GW's legal team, Winston & Strawn is one of the top IP litigation firms in the United States. I think they were mostly dealt a losing hand, through some combination of their client's behavior and their inherent position.

No, I work in the insurance industry and we don't pay our attorneys hourly.

Contingency fees are much more reasonable...from our viewpoint. ;)

[Nabterayl]

I don't get paid hourly, either. The effective hourly rate that I get paid is ... considerably less than what the firm charges for my time. I try not to think about it too hard :p

[Bigred]

Both sides had top shelf IP firms working them. One off them is Apple's IP firm (I don't remember which one).

The case has been long with extensive filings, discovery and a full trial. I would be shocked if the fees aren't in the 700k -$1,000,000 range per side.

That 25K fine was indeed a slap on the wrist. Here in the US any small business with a few years under their belt could just open 2 weeks of junk mail and apply for 25K of business credit cards.

[rle68]

Both sides had top shelf IP firms working them. One off them is Apple's IP firm (I don't remember which one).

The case has been long with extensive filings, discovery and a full trial. I would be shocked if the fees aren't in the 700k -$1,000,000 range per side.

That 25K fine was indeed a slap on the wrist. Here in the US any small business with a few years under their belt could just open 2 weeks of junk mail and apply for 25K of business credit cards.

id like to think they had some type of business insurance as some sort or llc or sole proprietorship

[Clockwork]

Both sides had top shelf IP firms working them. One off them is Apple's IP firm (I don't remember which one).

The case has been long with extensive filings, discovery and a full trial. I would be shocked if the fees aren't in the 700k -$1,000,000 range per side.

That 25K fine was indeed a slap on the wrist. Here in the US any small business with a few years under their belt could just open 2 weeks of junk mail and apply for 25K of business credit cards.

It's a slap on the wrist that counts as 25% of CHS yearly gross though, which might be why the number was so low.

That aside, any word on the Final Judgement? Or are we waiting until tomorrow or Monday for that?

[eldargal]

It's what I expected, a much more mixed result than the anti-CHS and anti-GW crowds would expect based on their partisan (and ignorant) opinions.

I don't think the result is particularly damaging for either company but the somewhat grey area of third party miniatures is somewhat less grey which is only a good thing.


I think that Americans are used to the Idea of Fair Use. Also our culture frowns on the big and powerful picking on the little guy. So this case hits our Cultural biases in both ways.
Lol.

[Lexington]

Question: what would you do if GW withdrew completely from the NA market because of poor IP protection?
Don't imagine the company management would last 24 hours past making that decision. GW's prone to childish overreaction (see their hilariously incompetent handling of the 'Spots the Space Marine' incident, specifically their Facebook tantrum), but cutting off one of their biggest markets for what boils down to some very minor IP discomforts wouldn't pass the laugh test with the companies that hold the majority of their stock.

[Zithaska]

Both sides had top shelf IP firms working them. One off them is Apple's IP firm (I don't remember which one).

The case has been long with extensive filings, discovery and a full trial. I would be shocked if the fees aren't in the 700k -$1,000,000 range per side.



I was under the impression that CHS was being represented pro bono (which is not to say that they probably didn't pick up some of the tab).

[isotope99]

As expected, a mixed bag of wins and losses.

Sadly those expecting GW to be more relaxed are likely to be disappointed, if anything this will likely be interpreted as a reminder that they need to be more vigilant in their trademarking practices and more careful not to allow any art or background out into the world that isn't backed up by by their models.

On the plus side, further incemntive for them to expand forgeworld and keep the heresy stuff coming as fast as they can.

Decisions on awarding costs are goping to be far more financially significant than the damages (from GW's side at least).

[Bigred]

Zithaska wrote:

I was under the impression that CHS was being represented pro bono (which is not to say that they probably didn't pick up some of the tab).

CHS was represented pro bono, so they aren't on the hook for their own legal fees. GW however is on the hook for their's.

[isotope99]

Zithaska wrote:


CHS was represented pro bono, so they aren't on the hook for their own legal fees. GW however is on the hook for their's.

Do we know yet if there is any award of costs along with damages, or if this is yet to come? As you've said legal fees are much bigger and even a small slice of GW's fees could dwarf the damages and put a different complexion on things. On balance, it looks like CHS won more than they've lost (on a simple summation of the counts) which may help them. Not sure how costs work when represented pro bono and if GW could still be charged ( I assume so based on some sort of hopurs spent basis)

[Denzark]

But you realize, then, that GW would be 65% talentless, lying d-bag scum, right? ;)

:D





Could their business stay afloat without the US market? I would be interested to see a break down of how much money is spent in the US on GW stuff versus the rest of the world. Personally, I think they would be a pale shade of what they are now without the massive US market. Just a side thought, most of the 3rd party parts folks I have bought from are not based in the United States. They have been out of the UK (Anvil, Victoria), Poland (Maxmini, Kromlech, Scibor), and Russia(Some guy that sold me a Doom, I forget). CHS and Paulson Games are the only US based ones I can even come up with. Let's cast the blame where it belongs. You might not be bashing the US but the bigotry is getting a bit tiresome on these topics. I could start making comments about the predatory actions of GW and blame the British system just as easily. The US system is not to blame for this debacle. Now the law is better defined here. Let's see what happens.

I personally think the big business culture of GW was a stateside import when they started to get too big and brought in the suits. When it was almost a cottage industry back in the day, with designers trying to make in-jokes about Birmingham and Orcs being West Ham united supporters, this would never have happened.

Bearing in mind GW miniatures have changed scale from 25mm to 28mm in some 20 years, I would re-tool anything that could be used by third parties - ie the way legs split so can be used on jet bikes, the way torsos fit onto legs (ie wolf rider legs) and the way pads fit. See how quickly the leeches keep up and if they can afford to demolish their existing stocks.

This isn't some Robin Hood morality tale no matter how it is portrayed by a few 'I told you so' types. Even the cobbers on here who have been gouged by GW recently, are looking logically on that. But for a few on here, this has definitely been an anti GB thing. This is especially piquant to a few little America types who probably haven't been more than 30 miles away from the trailer they were born in in East Bumburp, Alabama, in their entire life.

[Kirsten]

love the fact people are declaring this a CHS victory because they have been found innocent of most of the infringements. They have to pay damages and GW specific names are being protected and cannot be used. That was the original point, GW told CHS to change the names of their products to avoid using GW names. they didn't care about the models being made. CHS behaved like children and told GW where to go, now they have to pay up and cannot use the names, as they were originally warned about.

[Evil & Chaos]

love the fact people are declaring this a CHS victory because they have been found innocent of most of the infringements. They have to pay damages and GW specific names are being protected and cannot be used. That was the original point, GW told CHS to change the names of their products to avoid using GW names. they didn't care about the models being made. CHS behaved like children and told GW where to go, now they have to pay up and cannot use the names, as they were originally warned about.

Actually, no.

GW's legal action that started more than two years ago that basically stated : "Shut down your entire company immediately, destroy your moulds and moulding machinery, comply or be sued into oblivion".

GW never said "stop using our names". GW said "stop making all your models, now".

[eldargal]

love the fact people are declaring this a CHS victory because they have been found innocent of most of the infringements. They have to pay damages and GW specific names are being protected and cannot be used. That was the original point, GW told CHS to change the names of their products to avoid using GW names. they didn't care about the models being made. CHS behaved like children and told GW where to go, now they have to pay up and cannot use the names, as they were originally warned about.
Right. There are some good things for 2rd party producers in that it defines more what they can and cannot do in terms of advertising their products in relation to GWs products. GW certainly overreached in the sense I think they tried to throw so much crap at CHS enough would stick to destroy them completely and that failed. But the people who are building this into some kind of 'GW vs the industry' are really reaching.

[Kirsten]

Actually, no.

GW's legal action that started more than two years ago that basically stated : "Shut down your entire company immediately, destroy your moulds and moulding machinery, comply or be sued into oblivion".

GW never said "stop using our names". GW said "stop making all your models, now".

no, they really didn't

[daboarder]

no, they really didn't

Come on kirsten you know better than to poke wholes in GW hate logic....mostly because its already swiss cheese.

[lowelife101]

I think I've been misinterpreted because of poor usage of analogies, you were right to call me up on it. All I'm trying to say is that say what you will about GW the quality of their product is strides superior than the aftermarket parts that are produced for it and they have a right to say that small companies producing inferior components damage their reputation and weaken the authority of their intellectual property, just as the guy before me said, how can a company be only 35% thieving cheating scumbags? the answer is legal wibbly wobbly bull****.

[Chris*ta]

Just a side thought, most of the 3rd party parts folks I have bought from are not based in the United States. They have been out of the UK (Anvil, Victoria), Poland (Maxmini, Kromlech, Scibor), and Russia(Some guy that sold me a Doom, I forget). CHS and Paulson Games are the only US based ones I can even come up with.

Just nitpicking here:

Victoria Miniatures is Australian, not UK. Victoria Lamb lives in Adelaide, if I'm not mistaken.

Some of her stuff is really good, too.

Sorry, you can all resume the argument over IP laws now.

I'm not too surprised over the result. GW had several points that were pretty open-and-shut, several that were pretty bull****, and several that were probably true, but the evidence was lost in the mists of time.

The question is if costs are awarded against CHS; that could ruin them financially.

[daboarder]

Just nitpicking here:

Victoria Miniatures is Australian, not UK. Victoria Lamb lives in Adelaide, if I'm not mistaken.

Some of her stuff is really good, too.

Sorry, you can all resume the argument over IP laws now.

I'm not too surprised over the result. GW had several points that were pretty open-and-shut, several that were pretty bull****, and several that were probably true, but the evidence was lost in the mists of time.

The question is if costs are awarded against CHS; that could ruin them financially.

Yeah love her stuff, I've been meaning to pick up her aussies for ages, even just a kill team.

I thought she was working for GW for a bit though, in the heavy metal team? I know they featured a lot of her stuff in older codexes

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I feel like this is probably the best outcome that was on the table.

Nobody got ruined. Chapterhouse got slapped down for their most egregious stuff. GW were shown that they can't own the world just by saying so. Hopefully this means they'll be more cautious about legal claims in the future (restricted, perhaps, to only when they know they're in the right, would be nice). Both sides come out of this with a much clearer picture of how they can operate, what can be copyrighted and trademarked, and so on.

GW's case was overzealous and bit off more than they could chew; Chapterhouse has been found guilty of serial copyright violation.

Now can we go back to discussing toy soldiers? :)

[Wildeybeast]

I personally think the big business culture of GW was a stateside import when they started to get too big and brought in the suits. When it was almost a cottage industry back in the day, with designers trying to make in-jokes about Birmingham and Orcs being West Ham united supporters, this would never have happened.

But if they hadn't gone all corporate and expanded from a cottage industry, we wouldn't have the state-of-the art gorgeous, massive models we have today. Progress comes at a price.

[daboarder]

I feel like this is probably the best outcome that was on the table.

Nobody got ruined. Chapterhouse got slapped down for their most egregious stuff. GW were shown that they can't own the world just by saying so. Hopefully this means they'll be more cautious about legal claims in the future (restricted, perhaps, to only when they know they're in the right, would be nice). Both sides come out of this with a much clearer picture of how they can operate, what can be copyrighted and trademarked, and so on.

GW's case was overzealous and bit off more than they could chew; Chapterhouse has been found guilty of serial copyright violation.

Now can we go back to discussing toy soldiers? :)

judge might still award cost GW's legal cost to CHS, that would kinda end them. and as the original IP holders, I think thats likely is it not?

[Denzark]

I feel like this is probably the best outcome that was on the table.

Nobody got ruined. Chapterhouse got slapped down for their most egregious stuff. GW were shown that they can't own the world just by saying so. Hopefully this means they'll be more cautious about legal claims in the future (restricted, perhaps, to only when they know they're in the right, would be nice). Both sides come out of this with a much clearer picture of how they can operate, what can be copyrighted and trademarked, and so on.

GW's case was overzealous and bit off more than they could chew; Chapterhouse has been found guilty of serial copyright violation.

Now can we go back to discussing toy soldiers? :)

Very Sensible Capt.


But if they hadn't gone all corporate and expanded from a cottage industry, we wouldn't have the state-of-the art gorgeous, massive models we have today. Progress comes at a price.

Again, yeah, I can see this. But my earlier years were full of the bog rolls, yoghurt pots, action force vehicles, a large bitz box and some imagination, that was the hall marks of Rogue Trader and to some extent Dark Millenium. Whilst I love the terrain especially, there is little they give us now I couldn't have done then - although rulesets are nice ie apoc big guys.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

judge might still award cost GW's legal cost to CHS, that would kinda end them. and as the original IP holders, I think thats likely is it not?

It's possible. That's the risk you take going to trial: you can deal with big bad GW and their lawyers, or you can put it to the whims of a judge and jury. That way you can win big or lose it all.

I don't personally think it's very likely, but we'll see.

[Evil & Chaos]

no, they really didn't

Yes they did. From GW's legal filing document, December 21 2010:


Plaintiff respectfully requests judgment against Defendants as follows:

....

2.
Directing the destruction of all infringing merchandise and molds and means of producing the same;

It's right there in the first legal document GW served CHS with.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Should note that when I say "I don't think it's very likely", what I mean is "I have no legal expertise whatsoever and am giving my gut reaction; I am never surprised when, as is often the case, the Great And Noble Edifices of the Law do precisely the wrong thing".

[daboarder]

Should note that when I say "I don't think it's very likely", what I mean is "I have no legal expertise whatsoever and am giving my gut reaction; I am never surprised when, as is often the case, the Great And Noble Edifices of the Law do precisely the wrong thing".

I don't really think its the "wrong thing" GW defended "successfully" their IP, sure they didn't win on everything, its is after all why they pay for trademarks and the like. But then thats just my gut feeling.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. IP defended as far a possible, and some upholds there.

Did they bite off more than they could chew? Dunno. But I can see good reason for going the whole hog. If you're gonna sue someone, sue big. Trump it up. You're paying your legal fees regardless. Bung it all in. See what sticks alongside the certain stuff. Basic litigation I'd have thought.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I mean it's the wrong thing in a moral sense. In the strict legal terms you guys are right, and I think your assessment of how one Does Litigation is also accurate, Mystery. (I know, morals have nothing to do with law!) I just feel like it's enough to have proved that they broke the law and to ensure they can't carry on their business in this manner without actually destroying the company. (And I am in no sense a fan of CHS).

On the other hand, like I say, that's the chance you take when you take it to trial. You have to be really confident you can win and win big. If CHS were persuaded that they could walk away from the whole thing laughing, then I'd suggest their legal advice hasn't been as good as people think it is.

[daboarder]

see I just fail to see how being able to make an income on your own ideas is "wrong"

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Nah, that's not what I'm saying. I'm very pleased that the court has ruled that, no, you can't take food off Jes Goodwin's table. That needed to happen, because otherwise it's just banditry. Whatever one thinks of GW The Institution, GW's studio is made up of talented and imaginative people who deserve to be able to make a living off their own ******* work.

It's just that I feel like having set that precedent is enough.

[Magpie]

How is it wrong that the company is destroyed by this?

CHS could have saved itself a whole heap of grief if when the first C&D order was served if they'd C'ed and D'ed.

[Deadlift]

Quick question, how's this verdict going to effect me as a GW customer ?, I don't generally bother with 3rd party stuff. I'm UK.
Anyone hazard a guess ?
I suspect not at all.

[Mr Mystery]

Those who feel GW have been 'bullies' are I feel being a bit naive.

And yes, I do feel CH should go the way of the Dodo over this. Although some of what they did has been ruled fair game (and I'm not debating those bits. Safe to assume Mr Judgeypants knows far more than us plebs), they have been caught on various others.

And don't forget, CH exists solely as a (my words) parasite company. All their money came from using someone else's graft. I personally find that distasteful, hence why I'd be quite happy to see them go. BUT... Had the stuff subject to the trial been only one part of their range, and they'd perhaps created their own setting, regardless of which one might consider to be the ancillary, then yeah, fair enough. Shut down the infringing, but leave them able to continue on their original stuff. But they have none. No GW? No CH....

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I agree that they could've saved themselves a lot of hassle, and honestly, I feel like they behaved badly throughout. Making out that you're the Wronged Little Guy when what you're doing is trading on someone else's work is scummy. But do those people deserve to be ruined? I'm not sure.

Anyway, we'll see. Like I've said throughout, if they do get legal-costs'd out of business, then they've brought it on themselves.

[isotope99]

We're seeing the effects in fewer new units in codices but more complete model ranges at launch and FW doing the heresy series. How much this is really down to Chapterhouse is hard to say of course.

Actual effects of this judgement likely to be relatively little.

[eldargal]

Quick question, how's this verdict going to effect me as a GW customer ?, I don't generally bother with 3rd party stuff. I'm UK.
Anyone hazard a guess ?
I suspect not at all.
You might see more companies advertising their bits as compatible with GWs range. You might see more side by side scale shots. Maybe a few more people might start their own conversion bits companies if they feel a bit safer now that they have more of an idea what they can and cannot do without bring the law down on their heads. That's it really.

There may be some changes in GWs release and rumour policies but how much they have been or will be related to CHS is complete speculation.

[daboarder]

Quick question, how's this verdict going to effect me as a GW customer ?, I don't generally bother with 3rd party stuff. I'm UK.
Anyone hazard a guess ?
I suspect not at all.


well for starters, if they don't make a mini for it, expect it to drop from your codex
Also expect to only ever see 3 kits a release, no more rules with a model to come.

[Deadlift]

News just in, GW is now buying Chapter house studios. Just joking. Would be quite funny though :)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Special Characters will probably still occasionally turn up without a model; I assume it's hard for a third party company to come in and say "this, is, uh, Raldor Mraigo" or "M'lady Alys" and not get laughed out of town.

[Deadlift]

well for starters, if they don't make a mini for it, expect it to drop from your codex
Also expect to only ever see 3 kits a release, no more rules with a model to come.

At the rate GW are releasing codexes I would expect that to happen anyway. But then most of those kits are capable of making 2 different units anyway. So 3 plastics = 6 units. Sounds good to me.

[daboarder]

I think daemons are the only place where this is likely.

edit: I'm just saying their current releases feel a little...sterile? its something ive noticed since CSM. maybe its the pace, maybe it CHS

[Magpie]

If they are dropping un-modelled rules from Codices, do you think we might see models released with their rules included?
Or perhaps as a White Dwarf article?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think that's a combination of the pace and the time/energy they've spent on doing the Big Models. Most of those have several sculptors working on them at once, and between doing the concept, design, discussions with rules writers for what tend to be entirely new things, I think they take a bit longer than "let's do a new Ravenwing box!" or "Pathfinders - IN PLASTIC!" :)

I think the only really direct influence the CHS case has had was the Space Wolves/Tyranid joint release last year and the new policy of making sure there's a GW model for every GW codex entry where possible.

Releases with rules coming alongside them has been a thing for years now. See the Eldar Nightspinner, the Space Marine/Ork/Necron fliers in WD (collected in that flier book, whatever it's called) etc.

[Mr Mystery]

As for knock on effects in the bits market...

I think it will, oddly, hit the bits market harder than GW. Ultimately, GW are now preventing range gaps at source. Whilst there is work to be done in that respect, it's nothing they can't achieve. Once completed, bits can only really offer alternatives. To those who don't like GE model A, will look at the alternatives. And there is no guarantee any given bits manufacturer will get customer loyalty. So the more that art up, the more diluted their market will become. This threatens them far more than GW. It will come down to quality, and possibly price.

[Caitsidhe]

While the Lawyers for Games Workshop certainly made a mint and the Lawyers working for Chapterhouse struck gold in reputation and performance (turns into money later), the real winner her is the CONSUMER. Chapterhouse is irrelevant. I'm not saying that to be mean, but they are already being passed in quality by lots of companies supplying models and bits. The only thing important about them is that they are the "opener of the way" so to speak. Chapterhouse will have to really bear down if they are catch up with some of the other rivals even within their own circles.

I've said this many times and I'm going to say it again. The hobby is WARGAMING. It isn't Games Workshop. GW is just a merchant, nothing more and nothing less. I don't hate Games Workshop. I dislike it when any merchant gains too much of an upper hand in a market because it is bad of the consumer. Like the verdict or not, the system worked. The outcome gave us clear, clean rules by which third party model producers can market their own product. This gives us more options. This is likely to drive down prices OVERALL, although it may or may not affect Games Workshop.

I also think this situation, particularly here, illustrates that most people can't tell the difference (or at least don't understand the lines between) Copyright, Trademark, and Patents (thrown in just because). I think it is important that we learn them. I think it is even MORE important that we learn why they exist. Of even greater value is understanding that you don't get to stick a flag in an idea. Intellectual Property isn't a gold rush where there are only the quick and the dead. Like it or not, zeitgeist exists and most ideas and notions belong to us collectively. This case (and the many to come like it in other fields) are important because if some had their way you would be paying a fee to do nearly EVERYTHING because I assure you that someone will have had an idea "like" it at one time and now says it belongs to them. :D

[Loken]

Those who feel GW have been 'bullies' are I feel being a bit naive.

And don't forget, CH exists solely as a (my words) parasite company. All their money came from using someone else's graft. I personally find that distasteful, hence why I'd be quite happy to see them go. BUT... Had the stuff subject to the trial been only one part of their range, and they'd perhaps created their own setting, regardless of which one might consider to be the ancillary, then yeah, fair enough. Shut down the infringing, but leave them able to continue on their original stuff. But they have none. No GW? No CH....


Absolutely absurd. The aftermarket parts company is standard business practice and not a "parasite" industry. Tell that to the BILLION $ after market car parts business.

So tired of the haters who don't like after market bitz and trying to rationalize that in a business case.

[Loken]

judge might still award cost GW's legal cost to CHS, that would kinda end them. and as the original IP holders, I think thats likely is it not?

No, the judge won't award costs in a case where CH so clearly won on a number of issues and GW so clearly got their overreach slapped down. Awarding of costs doesn't happen all that much in the US in a case where the verdict is so clearly split.

Make no mistake, this was no win for GW and they lost more than Chapterhouse. GW got shown to be lying over-reachers who don't own all the things they claim to.

[Loken]

judge might still award cost GW's legal cost to CHS, that would kinda end them. and as the original IP holders, I think thats likely is it not?

No, the judge won't award costs in a case where CH so clearly won on a number of issues and GW so clearly got their overreach slapped down. Awarding of costs doesn't happen all that much in the US in a case where the verdict is so clearly split.

Make no mistake, this was no win for GW and they lost more than Chapterhouse. GW got shown to be lying over-reachers who don't own all the things they claim to.

[Wildcard]

Personally i do not understand why people (or companies) are upset that someone makes a 3rd party supplementary parts to existing products. It could also be seen as consumer protection to state that ones 3rd party products are compatible with "GW's 40k products".

This is pretty much as the court stated is ok, if i understood correctly, yet still people moan about "leeches"..

Also general scifi / fantasy terms for races should automatically be safe from any kind of IP claims. For example a few quick general quotes:

"Marine is an adjective for things relating to the sea or ocean--" and
"The United States Marine Corps (USMC) is a branch of the United States Armed Forces responsible for providing power projection from the sea--"
And if i am not mistaken, "Space Marine" has been derived to science fiction way before games workshop used it (this was stated one of the topics concerning this legal struggle), and as such even that term should be included in the "general scifi-terms". Also titans, walkers, craft that hover (skimmers in 40k) etc are all outside of 40k.

However, to reduce the amount of hate responding to this post it is worth stating that i am with gw on it that their unique stuff like ultramarines, blood angels, gods, few race names (Necrons, Tau and so forth) should be protected and honoured.

And then back to the physical sculpts: I have bought 3rd party heads from pig iron productions to use with my IG models. Would I have bought them from GW / ForgeWorld if they would have had similar products? -Most likely. Would i update my forces if GW would release supplementary heads for IG, not likely, but i would not hesitate to get them in the future when expanding my army.

Same with scibor "custodians". I find it infuriating that a big company would feel bad if they haven't had the time to craft miniatures that resemble their mysterious dudes. I haven't yet bought a single custodian from scibor, but i've been tempted to. Luckily Forge is pumping out 30k stuff now and i may have a change to get true custodians. Yet they will also most likely be cast in resin, rather than plastic - which i dislike.

Being a capitalist my self I support the ideology that if someone makes a product, to compete other has to make either a better product or make similar quality product for cheaper. And I personally like the quality more, and with GW, i know i can trust their quality so the question always is, Do the GW/FW provide me with a product i want or do i have to settle for a substitute.

This is my personal opinion: A company should never be allowed to own something that they cannot or will not produce and at the same time deny the access for public to something substituting product. This hinders with advancement and is one of the most critical reasons why patents have a fixed time (in years tho) that cannot be prolonged.

[lowelife101]

I rather think we need something to lighten the mood, right or wrong the decision has been made and as is usual we as consumers can do nothing but grumble and hope to christ the consequences do not come to affect us in anyway negative.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPgS26ZhqZs

There, now who wants pizza?

[rle68]

I am actually glad the verdict came down as it did...chs needed to be reigned in and gw needed a slap upside the head for being stupid and claiming crap they didnt even own

the verdict was the correct one here.. i know those of you in the UK and Europe dont see it that way but thats because your locality has differing laws then we do here...but the thing is quit simple GW does business here in the US, they are bound by US law just as they are also bound by German French or English law there...

no one lost per se... gw just didnt get the win they felt they were owed.. maybe thats a bit harsh as i am very happy when gw gets pounded.. but i dont feel they should be harmed by companies doing them wrong either

now bitz companies can make the parst that people want and gw can go back and fix what they didnt own and either gain ownership of what they actually created and didnt "use" from others and in the long run having options is never a bad thing

just my op

[lattd]

Evil & Chaos it's standard procedure to ask for destruction of infringing items and the ability to make them. Why would any company allow you to keep the ability to infringe when you just spent a hefty sum on suing them for making your goods.

[Mr Mystery]

General process question about the US appeals process.

From reading this thread, I see mention of the possibility of either side calling an appeal.

Now, whether this happens or not, in terms of general process, how does it work? Is the whole trial resat? Can the parties involve bring further evidence? Do they have to use the same arguments?

[templarboy]

General process question about the US appeals process.

From reading this thread, I see mention of the possibility of either side calling an appeal.

Now, whether this happens or not, in terms of general process, how does it work? Is the whole trial resat? Can the parties involve bring further evidence? Do they have to use the same arguments?Either side can appeal a ruling. That would not necessarily mean a new trial. A higher court could review the findings and adjust the awards or rulings. For an all new trial, a big time failure of law would be required. Especially in a civil trial. In a new trial new evidence could be limited by the judge but arguments could be different (again if the judge approves). In a review appeal, the judge will only look at transcripts of the previous trial so nothing new there. In the US system, judges have huge power in the appeal process. There are nuances I am missing. The differences between criminal proceedings and civil proceedings are pretty profound. It also differs State to State. This trial was in Illinois right? Oh and I apologize for my earlier post stating that Victoria Miniatures was a UK company. My bad.

[templarboy]

Evil & Chaos it's standard procedure to ask for destruction of infringing items and the ability to make them. Why would any company allow you to keep the ability to infringe when you just spent a hefty sum on suing them for making your goods.

He was responding to a post that stated that the C and D did not demand that the entire operation be dismantled and destroyed. It clearly did.

[Mr Mystery]

Either side can appeal a ruling. That would not necessarily mean a new trial. A higher court could review the findings and adjust the awards or rulings. For an all new trial, a big time failure of law would be required. Especially in a civil trial. In a new trial new evidence could be limited by the judge but arguments could be different (again if the judge approves). In a review appeal, the judge will only look at transcripts of the previous trial so nothing new there. In the US system, judges have huge power in the appeal process. There are nuances I am missing. The differences between criminal proceedings and civil proceedings are pretty profound. It also differs State to State. This trial was in Illinois right? Oh and I apologize for my earlier post stating that Victoria Miniatures was a UK company. My bad.

Cool. Cheers dude!

And in a Columbo stylee.... Just one more thing... Has anyone ever taken a case to appeal, and managed to make things worse for themselves? So in this instance, GW appealing, and all findings in their favour being overturned, or CH appealing and the Judge ruling the penalty had been unfairly lenient?

[Nabterayl]

General process question about the US appeals process.

From reading this thread, I see mention of the possibility of either side calling an appeal.

Now, whether this happens or not, in terms of general process, how does it work? Is the whole trial resat? Can the parties involve bring further evidence? Do they have to use the same arguments?
In a civil trial you're allowed to appeal orders and rulings of the judge, but that's it. You cannot appeal the verdict of a jury in a civil trial. In a federal court (which this was), in general you have 30 days to appeal the order or ruling of the judge to which you object.

When you appeal, the next highest court in the system (in this case, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals) either turns you down because they don't want to bother with your question, or they accept it. In a few sorts of cases they have to hear your appeal, but I don't believe this is one of those cases. Assuming they decide to hear your appeal, the original trial goes on hiatus until the appeal is finished.

At the appeal, new evidence is not permitted unless it didn't exist at the time of the trial. You can't go to the appellate court and say, "This evidence is super important but we totally forgot to bring it up at trial." The appeals process is not a way to undo your own incompetence. You can introduce new evidence if there was literally no way for you to bring it up at trial, but that is very rare. Similarly, you are not allowed to introduce new theories or arguments. If a really good argument occurs to you on appeal that did not occur to you at trial, it is too late to bring it up. The appeals court is not there to correct your incompetence.

The point of an appeal is to correct an erroneous decision the judge made. This means the appellant is allowed to argue why the judge got the law wrong in the ruling or order being appealed, and the appellee is allowed to argue that the judge got the law right and the original ruling or order should stand. Note that these are both purely legal points. The appeals court will make its decision, and at that point one of two things can happen. The side that lost the appeal can appeal to the next highest court in the applicable court system (in this case the Supreme Court of the United States), or the trial can resume with the ruling or order in question modified however the appeals court dictated.

Depending on the ruling or order in question, the appeals court might simply enter a new ruling or order. For instance, the judge might rule that evidence X is inadmissible. If that ruling was appealed, the appellate court might simply order evidence X to be admitted. The appellate court is also allowed to say, "The trial judge ruled that X was inadmissible because he thought the rule was Y. We are correcting the judge that the rule is Z. The judge is ordered to make a new decision based on rule Z." Based on rule Z, the trial judge might admit the evidence, but he is also allowed to exclude the evidence if he decides that it is inadmissible even under rule Z. This freedom is another reflection of the fact that appellate courts are there only to correct judges. They are not there to decide cases, matters of fact, or hear evidence - so you can imagine that in many cases an appellate court will face a complicated question and have to say, "Look guys, unless I see all the facts that the litigants have dredged up, I have no f*cking clue what the real-world answer is. And frankly, it would take too long for me to review all of your facts, and it is not my job. I can tell you the rule is Z. Go forth and apply rule Z to your actual situation."

What does all this mean? It means that the jury verdict stands. That's the end of the line. It also means that any decisions made by the judge that are more than 30 days old stand. They could have been appealed, and they weren't (if you go to an appeals court and say, "Look, we really meant to appeal, but we didn't do it in the 30 days because <insert totally valid and convincing reasons here>," the appeals court will say, "It is not our fault that you are f*cking incompetent. You had 30 days. Go home and stop bothering us."). There are still some decisions by the judge to come, though. For instance, if the judge rules that CHS has to pay GW's attorneys fees (which I am 99% sure he will not), CHS could appeal that - that's a ruling that the judge made, not the jury.

People often hear (or even report) about civil cases that are decided at the appellate level. Strictly speaking, that's only kind of what happens. You may remember that back in April both sides moved for summary judgment. Summary judgment is a procedure by which the judge decides aspects of the trial (or even the whole thing) without taking up a jury's time. When might this happen, you ask? The answer is when there are no questions of fact. Remember that the reason we have juries in the first place is because we think a bunch of ordinary people are better than a single legal expert at deciding whose version of the facts is correct. If there are no disputed facts, there's no need for a jury. For instance, suppose you punch me on the street one day. I sue you for battery. At the court, you and I actually agree on everything that happened. We both agree that I called your mother a wh*re. We both agree that you politely asked me to apologize. We both agree that I told you to f*ck off and called your mother a wh*re again. We both agree that you then punched me in the gut. The only thing we disagree about is whether you owe me money for punching me.

In that sort of case, there's nothing for a jury to do. All the facts are agreed upon. The only question is a legal one - is punching somebody in those circumstances battery, or is it not? And that is a question for a single legal expert, not a bunch of laymen. Alternatively, suppose I deny everything. I could still say, "But Your Honor, even if I did all those things, Mr. Mystery still would owe me money for punching me." If the judge agrees with me as a matter of law, then we don't actually need to bother a jury. If you owe me money whether I said all those things or not, then it doesn't actually matter whether I said them or didn't.

Back in April, this is exactly what both sides did. Each of them said, "Your Honor, even if you accept my opponent's version of the facts, don't you agree that I still win as a matter of law?" This happens in every civil trial, mostly because there's no reason not to try for an early win. As often happens, the judge agreed with CHS on some points and with GW on some points, and disagreed with both of them on some points (this latter category are the things the jury was asked to do decide).

But what if the judge had agreed completely with one side or the other - or agreed so much with one side that that side effectively won? That happens sometimes. And that is the point at which most of the sexy civil appeals you hear about occur. One side totally sweeps the other at summary judgment, winning the case (or near enough as makes no difference). Case is over ...

... except that it wasn't a jury that finished the case. It was a ruling made by a judge, and those can be appealed. To go back to the battery example, suppose the court grants me summary judgment - it says that it is not a defense to the tort of battery that you were provoked, and therefore you owe me money despite what I said about your mom. Now, if the judge is right, all the appeals in the world will do you no good. The appeals court will just tell you, "The trial court was totally correct about what constitutes battery. Pay Nab his money." But what if the judge is wrong? What if it does matter whether you were provoked? Then an appeal might do you some good. The appeals court will say, "No, if you were provoked, that's not battery at all. You don't owe Nab a cent." The media will undoubtedly report this as you winning on appeal.

And you did win on appeal - but under fairly special circumstances. I was able to win at summary judgment (pre-jury) because we agreed upon the facts. You were able to reverse my victory because we agreed upon the facts. In this case, there were substantial disagreements about the facts, so we called in our fact-finding experts - a jury. An appeals court will not (indeed, is not allowed to) question the facts as the jury decided them, any more than the trial judge will.

[LordGrise]

News just in, GW is now buying Chapter house studios. Just joking. Would be quite funny though :)

This is what GW should have done in the first place, IMHO. Going to trial was simply stupidly short-sighted.

[Clockwork]

Just got back from being gone all day: any word on Final Judgement yet or are we still kicking about waiting for that news?

[templarboy]

Thanks Nabterayl. I am just a cop. I didn't get it too wrong. I'm just not as cool as you are!

[Mr Mystery]

This is what GW should have done in the first place, IMHO. Going to trial was simply stupidly short-sighted.

Not really, at all.

CH don't have high quality. GW as with any company have to defend their IP. Buying out a cheeky git isn't defending your IP...

And also, thank you to Nab's for a very informative post, without going into too much legally jargony words!

[Build]

GW as with any company have to defend their IP.

Forgive my ignorance, but how does this affect companies like Avatars of war and Gamezone? I know that they have a serious stick up their rear about both companies (not trying to poke fun at GW here) but the impression I got from chatting with various sculptors, artists and design heads from GW at gamesday, left a rather bitter taste in the mouth on the subject of other companies and variant sculpts.

That I am aware of (and I know very little on this) gameswokshop have had issues with avatars of war, the skaven equivalent being the biggest (or the one that caused the most amount of animosity), but so far they have not taken any kind of action (or if they did they failed) against that model, but have against another (and apparently succeeded).

[eldargal]

The difference is that Avatars of War and Gamezone weren't stupid enough to pick a fight with GW. So selling a mutant ratman that looks a lot like skaven is one thing, but when you refer to it as Skaven they get a bit angsty.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Think about how you'd google for it.

Say I wanted, erm.... squigs. They're uniquely GW, model and term. Thus if I google for squigs, responses are likely to be GW Squigs.

Now, company x likes squigs, and decides to do some of their own. They call them 'fungal bouncey gobs'. Unlikely to hit up on a Squig search.

But, company y does the same, and calls them squigs....

[eldargal]

I'd call them 'adorable evil mutant fungus frogs'.

[Build]

I'd call them 'adorable evil mutant fungus frogs'.


And this is what google images yielded http://pinktreefrog.typepad.com/.a/6a0115717bd356970b0120a95151fa970b-500wi

@Mr Mystery thanks for the clear cut explanation, that makes it a lot more clear as to why AOW was forced to drop the Lizardman.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd call them 'adorable evil mutant fungus frogs'.

Tempted to take up sewing and that, in an attempt to make cuddly Squigs!

I love Squigs me!

[eldargal]

Ditto, I own all the GW and FW squig models.:)

[Mr Mystery]

Got Mangler Squigs, and come Friday definitely purchasing a Squig Gobba. Might use it as a Scraplauncher stand in!

[Psychosplodge]

Tempted to take up sewing and that, in an attempt to make cuddly Squigs!

I love Squigs me!

Nah make crocheted cuddly squigs instead :D

[Chris*ta]

Oh and I apologize for my earlier post stating that Victoria Miniatures was a UK company. My bad.

No need to apologise. It's just there's precious few Australian miniature manufacturers, and I think it's pretty cool to have one :D

[gbprime]

I'd call them 'adorable evil mutant fungus frogs'.

Call them Ork Quee Quigs, and have people search for "ork quigs". Google will do the rest. :rolleyes:

[Chris*ta]

Call them Ork Quee Quigs, and have people search for "ork quigs". Google will do the rest. :rolleyes:

Queequeg?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100423182561/x-files/images/thumb/7/76/Queequeg.jpg/480px-Queequeg.jpg

[40kGamer]

post edit :Also I pretty much disagree with trial by jury. As the jury of your peers often isn't.

A jury of peers is often a room full of disinterested people who would far rather be anywhere else. Especially in a case that involves a niche market issue and onerous highly technical laws.

[Chris*ta]

A jury of peers is often a room full of disinterested people who would far rather be anywhere else. Especially in a case that involves a niche market issue and onerous highly technical laws.

I do remember someone observing that a jury is twelve people who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty ;)

I've been up for it twice (that's what he said :rolleyes:) once I would've been glad of it, because it amounted to paying work, the other time I wouldn't, because I had an actual job at the time. Didn't actually get a case either time though.

I'm not entirely convinced of the jury system, especially the American variant where the lawyers interview a person before deciding if they want them on the jury or not. Basically, I don't see why nobodies should be making legal decisions that affect someone's future; I'd rather have someone who's trained doing it. Then again, I guess it's harder to bribe twelve randoms rather than one judge, so I dunno ...

Actually relevant: Having a jury in a civil case, I've not heard of this before? Is it done in the UK or Australia?

[GrauGeist]

In a civil trial you're allowed to appeal orders and rulings of the judge, but that's it. You cannot appeal the verdict of a jury in a civil trial.

First, that was a truly excellent post.

What about the Judge's instructions to the Jury? If the Judge instructs the Jury incorrectly / contrary to law / legal precedent, what then?

In the battery case, for example, if the Judge said that I literally had to "break face" to be considered Guilty, but all I did was leave a red mark, and the law simply says "bad touch", isn't that instruction something we address upon appeal? The Jury was misinstructed, so came to the wrong conclusion.

Similarly, the issue of discovery - if CHS finds GW had withheld additional discoverable material evidence that drive actual facts that might have led to summary judgement, isn't that an issue for appeal?

[Mr Mystery]

On the subject of Jury Duty, I quite hope I get called up for it!

It's not a million miles from my profession (official title is Adjudicator dontcha know!). And I rather enjoy going over evidence and that!

[Nabterayl]

As far as I know, the UK utilizes trial by jury only for criminal cases. If I can simplify a bit, the American fetish for juries arose historically out of two facts: one, the fact that in the 17th and 18th centuries that's what the English did; and two, the fact that in the 17th and 18th centuries there were not very many colonial judges. So they did it that way back in England anyway, but the colonists also found it to be a way to interject colonial perspective into the judicial process.

Most of the First World has since decided that, frankly, juries are not particularly useful in civil trials, for all the reasons that have been stated since ... well, since Aristophanes. Jurors in a civil trial are not especially apt to pay attention, they don't necessarily have the intelligence or the training to understand what's going on, etc. etc. Plenty of US lawyers feel the same way as the rest of the world. But officially, here in the United States, we recognize the right of a defendant to choose trial by jury or trial by judge to be a fundamental civil liberty, because ... well, mostly because we lionize the state of affairs that obtained in the late 18th century.

EDIT: Okay, that's being a bit flip. The immediate reason why we have a right to jury trials, at least at the federal level, is because it's written into the federal constitution:


In Suits at common law [the only kind we have, really -ed.], where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Of course, the reason that provision hasn't been amended is because, frankly, we're too in love with the state of affairs that obtained in the late 18th century to bother.


First, that was a truly excellent post.

What about the Judge's instructions to the Jury? If the Judge instructs the Jury incorrectly / contrary to law / legal precedent, what then?

In the battery case, for example, if the Judge said that I literally had to "break face" to be considered Guilty, but all I did was leave a red mark, and the law simply says "bad touch", isn't that instruction something we address upon appeal? The Jury was misinstructed, so came to the wrong conclusion.

Similarly, the issue of discovery - if CHS finds GW had withheld additional discoverable material evidence that drive actual facts that might have led to summary judgement, isn't that an issue for appeal?
Incorrect jury instructions are certainly appealable. Of course, jury instructions are not whipped out for the first time when they are read to the jury. Both sides will have an opportunity to review them and make any applicable motions or appeals. So long as you appeal within 30 days I believe there's nothing technically wrong with appealing jury instructions after the verdict has been handed down, but the appeals court is likely to be ... less than amused by the fact that you waited to see which way the jury would go before appealing.

The discovery process, while torturous, is still good enough that it's very difficult to withhold evidence and not get caught at some point during the discovery process itself. It essentially requires the concealing party to flat-out cheat, which is not as common as you might think (well, as far as we know; attempts to quantify the number of times cheating has completely evaded detection are, by nature, fraught with difficulty). If one does manage to turn up new evidence, though, that's not really an appeal - after all, the judge didn't do anything wrong, the victor did. You could take that new evidence and attempt to get a new trial, though. I am not especially well versed in the nuts and bolts of how that works, mostly because it almost never happens.

[weeble1000]

Nab, I appreciate your sentiment, and your informative posts, but your above post bears an important correction. I'll leave aside your comments on the US jury system, which I vehemently disagree with you about (except to say that you'd rather have a case decided by one person who is "not especially apt to pay attention, [doesn't] necessarily have the intelligence or the training to understand what's going on, etc. etc. than 12 of them within whom you have been able to personally probe for and remove biases?).

JMOL is rule 50 of US Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

Check section (b) Renewing the Motion After Trial

"If the court does not grant a motion for judgment as a matter of law made under Rule 50(a), the court is considered to have submitted the action to the jury subject to the court's later deciding the legal questions raised by the motion. No later than 28 days after the entry of judgment—or if the motion addresses a jury issue not decided by a verdict, no later than 28 days after the jury was discharged—the movant may file a renewed motion for judgment as a matter of law and may include an alternative or joint request for a new trial under Rule 59."

This also provides some important context, and is found in the discussion of rule 50:

"Often it appears to the court or to the moving party that a motion for judgment as a matter of law made at the close of the evidence should be reserved for a post-verdict decision. This is so because a jury verdict for the moving party moots the issue and because a pre-verdict ruling gambles that a reversal may result in a new trial that might have been avoided. For these reasons, the court may often wisely decline to rule on a motion for judgment as a matter of law made at the close of the evidence, and it is not inappropriate for the moving party to suggest such a postponement of the ruling until after the verdict has been rendered."

In other words, it is often safe for a Judge to decline to rule on a JMOL before a jury deliberates as it helps to reduce the likelihood of remand, thus reducing the burden on the public.

[Nabterayl]

Weeble, I can't tell if I'm not understanding you, or if I was unclear. I certainly didn't intend to talk about Rule 50 motions. I meant that if a litigant sees the judge's instructions to the jury, believes that those instructions misstate the law to its prejudice, objects to the form or content of those instructions, is overruled, and yet waits until after the jury has delivered a verdict to appeal the ruling, an appeals court is not likely to be sympathetic.

[GrauGeist]

If I say the instruction should be "bad touch", but the other side incorrectly said "break face", and the judge incorrectly instructed "break face", what then? I was overruled, so don't I have to wait for the verdict to appeal?

[Nabterayl]

No, you don't. In general, you don't have to (and indeed, are almost never allowed to) wait for the trial to be done before you appeal a ruling or order that you think is wrong. You're supposed to appeal immediately (read: you should give everybody notice of your intent to appeal immediately, but you have 30 days to put together the appeal itself), and the trial stops wherever it is until the judge's ruling or order has been confirmed or corrected. The idea is that if there is doubt over whether a judge is running the trial correctly, we should stop everything and deal with right then, rather than risk everything after that point being tainted by an incorrect decision by the judge that wasn't corrected until way later.

[Bigred]

Winston & Strawn LLP issue a press release (http://www.winston.com/index.cfm?contentID=30&itemID=4587) on the case:


June 17, 2013

Winston & Strawn Defeats Hundreds of Trademark and Copyright Infringement Claims on Behalf of Pro Bono Client



Cutting-Edge Decision Protects Industries from Litigation Blocking Add-On Products

CHICAGO, IL – In a classic David-versus-Goliath battle, Winston & Strawn LLP represented Chapterhouse Studios LLC on a pro bono basis in a cutting-edge federal trademark and copyright dispute in the Northern District of Illinois (Games Workshop Limited v. Chapterhouse Studios LLC 1:10-cv-8103). The verdict of this jury trial, held in June 2013 before Judge Matthew Kennelly, confirms that copyright and trademark law should not be used to block add-on products. Winston & Strawn has litigated the case since 2010, and co-counsel law firm Marshall Gerstein joined the matter in 2012.

“This was a classic case of trademark and copyright bullying by a much bigger Plaintiff,” said Jennifer Golinveaux, partner in Winston & Strawn’s San Francisco office. “I am proud of the investment made by the firm, and the many attorneys who devoted themselves to making sure the intellectual property laws were not misused to squash a much smaller player.”

Games Workshop manufactures Warhammer 40,000, a tabletop battle game that works with armies of miniature figures and vehicles, while Chapterhouse sells customized add-on parts for the figures and vehicles used in the game. The United Kingdom-based Games Workshop, a company with $200 million per year in revenues, alleged more than 200 claims of copyright and trademark infringement against Chapterhouse, a small business run out of an individual’s garage in Texas. Games Workshop argued that it was seeking a complete shutdown of Chapterhouse’s entire business and although Games Workshop initially sought over $400,000 in damages, by the end of the two-week jury trial, the plaintiff dropped its damages demand to only $25,000.

The jury deliberated for more than two days and found that Chapterhouse could continue to make and sell over a hundred products without fear of copyright infringement. The jury also confirmed that Chapterhouse could continue to use most of Games Workshop’s asserted trademarks when selling compatible parts, including all nine of Games Workshop’s registered trademarks. Together with the summary judgment wins, the jury’s verdict confirmed Chapterhouse can continue to make and sell 111 products that Games Workshop hoped to block using copyright laws, and can continue to use 104 words and phrases that Games Workshop said were trademarked.

Imron Aly, lead trial attorney and partner in Winston & Strawn’s Chicago office added, “It was a pleasure to represent a small entrepreneur like Nicholas Villacci of Chapterhouse, who has a passion for his work and wanted to see his business survive.”

Julianne Hartzell, partner at co-counsel law firm Marshall Gerstein added, “We are proud that we were able to help protect Chapterhouse against the overreaching claims made by Games Workshop in such a substantial trademark and copyright dispute.”

[daboarder]

Winston & Strawn LLP issue a press release (http://www.winston.com/index.cfm?contentID=30&itemID=4587) on the case:

GW dropped the damages demand to 25k?

why?

[Nabterayl]

That sounds like code for "they scaled back their damages demands to the few things they thought they could still get damages on by the end of the trial."

[Clockwork]

So we got one spun up press release. No sign of the Final Judgement though?

Also I like the fact that they don't mention that the $25k is what CHS has to actually pay....

[Sainhann]

Sure GW gets $25K but Chapter House gets to continue selling and there will be others who will just might as well.

Not the complete verdict that I wanted but it will do.

This was not a win in GW case. Sure they got some of the rulings to go their way but Chapter House is the winner here.

[DarkLink]

If CH is big enough to drop 25k, that is. If not, both lose and it's the third parties that win.

[Caitsidhe]

If CH is big enough to drop 25k, that is. If not, both lose and it's the third parties that win.

Third Parties win either way and the consumer wins regardless now.

[eldargal]

Wow, way to spin your small business client losing 25k lol. Note they don't refer to the 35% of claims that were upheld.

[Psychosplodge]

Wow, way to spin your small business client losing 25k lol. Note they don't refer to the 35% of claims that were upheld.

Well that would suggest it wasn't a case of big business bulling a small company wouldn't it?

[Magpie]

Third Parties win either way and the consumer wins regardless now.

Yes we get the joy of wading through 16 feet of utter crap products when trying to find GW miniatures and accessories.
WELL DONE LADS!

[Denzark]

So, by the end of the trial, GW were asking for $25k. At the end of the trial, they were awarded $25k.

Sounds like a machine gun effect, if you spray enough someone ends up in the beaten zone.

[Caitsidhe]

Yes we get the joy of wading through 16 feet of utter crap products when trying to find GW miniatures and accessories.
WELL DONE LADS!

This is rather silly don't you think? Games Workshop product can still be found on its own section of wall in any independent store, or in its own stores without any other merchandise for you to dig through. Likewise, you can still order from them direct. In short, you comment there is a load of... well... you know. From a consumer perspective, more choice and options are always better. From a consumer perspective, more competition tends to create better product and drive down prices. The consumer benefits from it being a BUYER'S market.

[RGilbert26]

This is rather silly don't you think? Games Workshop product can still be found on its own section of wall in any independent store, or in its own stores without any other merchandise for you to dig through. Likewise, you can still order from them direct. In short, you comment there is a load of... well... you know. From a consumer perspective, more choice and options are always better. From a consumer perspective, more competition tends to create better product and drive down prices. The consumer benefits from it being a BUYER'S market.

It won't cause GW to lower prices and that's why people go elsewhere to buy GW stuff.

[Caitsidhe]

It won't cause GW to lower prices and that's why people go elsewhere to buy GW stuff.

Who cares if GW lowers their prices? The market regulates itself when there is ample competition. People will always find the right product at the right price. I don't care who I get my models from as long as I like the look and the price.

[eldargal]

I think people are considerably overstating the potential damage to GW and the boon to the 3rd party industry personally. I doubt there will much of a negative impact to GW and while I think it will be good for 3rd party producers it's not going to result in some kind of renaissance.

[Nabterayl]

Wow, way to spin your small business client losing 25k lol. Note they don't refer to the 35% of claims that were upheld.
Well, gotta leave something for Foley to brag about ;)


So, by the end of the trial, GW were asking for $25k. At the end of the trial, they were awarded $25k.

Sounds like a machine gun effect, if you spray enough someone ends up in the beaten zone.
There's a certain amount of that, yes. On the other hand, it's also true that when you plead for damages you don't really have any of the information you need to make an accurate determination as to which claims you can win. So even if you aren't trying to make every possible claim, it is the natural process of litigation for you to realize you can win money on fewer and fewer claims as things approach judgment. The fact that things narrowed so much is a legitimate victory for Winston & Strawn, even if it's not as much of a victory for CHS.

[Caitsidhe]

I think people are considerably overstating the potential damage to GW and the boon to the 3rd party industry personally. I doubt there will much of a negative impact to GW and while I think it will be good for 3rd party producers it's not going to result in some kind of renaissance.

I never said it would do GW any damage. I could care less about GW's bottom line one way or the other. I only care about MY bottom line. :) What is good for third party and after market producers is good for my options. I think in the long run it will be good for GW too. They are facing a real problem which they will not be able to deal with through normal channels, i.e. the Russian (and other location) recasts for sale. The straight up copies are growing in availability and the only way to put them out of business is the same way you compete with third party types. Games Workshop will simply have to adjust to a new market reality and the sooner they do that the better for them and the better for us.

[lattd]

I think a jury trial in such a complexed area of law is ridiculous, especially when something is this niche. I know people who study this by choice who struggle with it what chance do 12 jurors who don't want to be there have in making a decision thats logical?

I can see GW making more bits, eldar is one of the few armies that currently do not have bits. They have ramped up production since this case started, I would think GW legal team would now be registering designs, they could also do an advertising campaign which would approve association and up the goodwill on their products.

[Mr Mystery]

I do question the overall effect this will have....

1. GW have already switched to 'model on release' policy. This reduces the sales potential of any given alternative. Rather than being a 'well at least they make one' affair, it'll be 'I prefer it to GW's offering'. Price? I think people overstate the price personally, but your mileage may vary.

2. Say lots of 3rd Parties do spring up. K. Who exactly are they competing with? Nope. It's not GW. It's each other.... This is good for the market overall, as those with the ropiest products (oh hai CH!) will lose out to those with higher quality sculpts and that.

Net result? Business as usual for GW, more touch and go market place for those swimming in their wake.

[Ghostofman]

I think people are considerably overstating the potential damage to GW and the boon to the 3rd party industry personally. I doubt there will much of a negative impact to GW and while I think it will be good for 3rd party producers it's not going to result in some kind of renaissance.

A renaissance no, but there will be a visible change. By being allowed to use GW's trademarked names, titles, ect, the shake up will be in the realm of searches and advertising. Essentially, once everyone's replaced all the "28mm space knight" with "Space Marine Miniature, compatible with Warhammer 40k" and Google's caught up, finding these third party shops is going to be a LOT easier, especially for new gamers.

So while this isn't the end for GW by a long shot, it is a noteworthy change in the status quo, one that has likely shaken up GW's leadership. While I'm skeptical of any real revolution from the perspective of the tabletop, I think it's possible we will (and already have) see GW making some moves we've never seen them make before. Is this a good or bad thing? Only time will tell.

[isotope99]

I like the David and Goliath reference. Giving them free representation is like giving David an Uzi instead of his slingshot.

I think this will make only a small difference, as others have said, some easier googling for alternative components and a bit more restriction in terms of weapon options in future codices so there are fewer potential missing pieces from the kits.

[LordGrise]

GW spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars on this - and got back 25K. And lost their Darth Vader-esque aura of legal menace and invincibility. And has categorically lost the bits/third party market. And has indelibly imprinted upon every legal system they might consider action under that they do not act in good faith.

If this isn't massive damage, I don't want to see what is.

[eldargal]

They spent between 300k and one million according to people involved in the case.

I wouldn't consider the prospect of GW suing you and relying on pro bono representation to only lose 25k out of your bank exactly a ringing endorsement for third party producers to start using GW trademarks either. Not to mention that a third of the complaints were still upheld.

If you want to see it as 'massive damage' you can but you are deluding yourself. GW can afford to throw a million dollars at a case like this every so often and unless you get free legal representation you'll either do what they say or go bankrupt fighting it..

[Herzlos]

I wouldn't consider the prospect of GW suing you and relying on pro bono representation to only lose 25k out of your bank exactly a ringing endorsement for third party producers to start using GW trademarks either. Not to mention that a third of the complaints were still upheld.

Indeed not, but that damage will be due to the stuff where CHS overstepped the line. Now the line is clearer everyone can stick within it and avoid the risk entirely. This is great for 3rd party companies and bad for GW.

Sure they'll probably still C&D everyone into oblivion, but they'll start getting replies referencing this case and pointing out that the judgement agrees with what they do.

I think you're also much more likely to get free legal representation when defending against a known frivolous litigator with a clear court precedence which says what you're doing is OK.

[Magpie]

Sure they'll probably still C&D everyone into oblivion, but they'll start getting replies referencing this case and pointing out that the judgement agrees with what they do.

I'd be thinking the opposite, GW now know what they can win so they will focus on those C&D's.
They can also tighten up the rest of their setup and get a bit of the weight off their coat tails.


I think you're also much more likely to get free legal representation when defending against a known frivolous litigator with a clear court precedence which says what you're doing is OK.

A third of claims upheld and $25k damages is not frivolous.

[Herzlos]

I'd be thinking the opposite, GW now know what they can win so they will focus on those C&D's.
They can also tighten up the rest of their setup and get a bit of the weight off their coat tails.

Maybe, but in that case companies who stick within the lines won't have to worry about C&D's.




A third of claims upheld and $25k damages is not frivolous.

But the other 2/3rds of the claims could be argued to be frivolous, particularly the ones covering generic tropes (power armour) or terms like plasma.

[Wolfshade]

One has to consider what this will mean, ultimately 3rd parties are dependent on the sucess of GW in the long term.
As has been said above, it does mean that we only get 1 wave of miniatures with every codex option being released. This I believe is a good thing for the consumer, or at least in the short term.
It also establishes what is and isn't correct use of GW IP, which is a boon to the 3rd parties in terms of advertisement.

What I think GW will do in response, well we have already seen the zipping up of the rumour mill, though that was allegdedly part of the New Line Cinema/Hobbit contracts. But it does mean that every item GW produces will be going forwards registered and protected which rather than making the market open and freer I would argue would make it closed and less free.

So with the second splash wave being removed the question the becomes how does GW generate that interest, well, it either slows down releases so that they are more evenly spread across the period, or they continue their release schedule and start pushing out supplements introducing new models and new rules to make the secondary splash for an earlier relased army, or the release new codecii much quicker. If they go down the latter route once all the old codecii have been updated what happens next? New race? Expansion? New edition? The new race and new expansion ideas I like, but the new edition, I am not so keen on. I do not want to know that once a new edition has been released, there will be 15 codecii released then a new rulebook opver a 3-4 year period.

[Caitsidhe]

Let's go at this logically and in a systematic way:

1. Did Games Workshop spend more than it gained?

Yes. They spent an obscene amount of money on legal fees even if the lowest estimate is accepted. Even going with the craziest, low estimate they spent more than ten times what they got back in the judgement. Chances are lowest, hopeful estimate is not correct and we are looking at them spending a great deal more.

2. Did the judgement injure Chapterhouse?

No. Let's put 25K in perspective. It is the cost of a new, mid-range car. It is a business expense. It is far, far less than any fees to Games Workshop would be. It is the average cost of one low paid employee to the business for a year.

3. Did Games Workshop gain anything non-monetary?

No. They lost a great deal of their ability to threaten the small fish competition. As I said many, many months ago, this litigation was the last thing Games Workshop should do. Legal precedent is now set and the "safe zones" for all the competition are brightly marked. What is more, we see just how small a return they get out of pursuing those infringement cases that they can win. It suffices to say that they will lose money every time they go to court.

No matter how anyone wants to try an "spit" this debacle, it is a horrendous, costly mistake for Games Workshop. It was lose-lose before they started. We have people saying casually that Games Workshop can afford to drop a million dollars on something like this and not care. I disagree. Stockholders tend to care. A million dollars that gains you nothing (actually loses you ground) isn't money well spent. It means someone should be fired. There were half a dozen ways this could have been handled but weren't. Any one of them would have been better than this outcome. Continuing to ignore Chapterhouse would even have been a better outcome. Chances are the company would have gone away on its own.

[eldargal]

Funny, several people I know with small businesses (turnover ranging from 500k to one million USD) were considerably less cavalier about the prospect of losing 25k like that when I spoke to them about it.

I'm not saying it was a great win for GW, it wasn't. But it wasn't a monumental loss either. As I said at the least they showed willingness and capacity to take a small company to court over it and accept the risk of losing a considerable sum in legal fees. Pro-bono representation is far from guaranteed, so would you risk using GW trademarks if you were, say, Scibor? I wouldn't be so sure. Best case scenario by this precedent is only losing 25k and god knows how much sleep and effort with free legal representation. If you don't get pro bono legal representation you're bankrupt over toy soldier parts.

[Magpie]

I'd also say that the court case has handed to GW the keys to the CHS executive washroom.

As a large section of their business rests completely on what GW produce all GW have to do is change what they produce and force CHS to follow suit. The court case has made it abundantly clear what has to be done to lock CHS out of any future products so all of the ones that GW do not have exclusive use of will be very soon disappearing from the Codices I expect.

[Aramel]

That is why I was concerned that warlocks on jetbikes would be removed, happily this did not happen.

[Herzlos]

If it's trademarks that have been allowed by the case, such as the "to fit Games Workshop ___________" then yes, it's worth the risk, because it's been shown to be legally fine.

It's not as if it's the grey area it was previously, there's a clearly defined line that everyone can now work to to stay on the correct side of the rules.

[Herzlos]

I'd also say that the court case has handed to GW the keys to the CHS executive washroom.

As a large section of their business rests completely on what GW produce all GW have to do is change what they produce and force CHS to follow suit. The court case has made it abundantly clear what has to be done to lock CHS out of any future products so all of the ones that GW do not have exclusive use of will be very soon disappearing from the Codices I expect.

I can't see GW changing Space Marines in such a way that CHS will have to redesign stuff because (a) it's a huge amount of work that'll annoy almost everyone and (b) CHS will have caught up in a matter of months. All GW can do is stop providing codex entries without figures or bits, and have CHS rely on producing aesthetic conversion bits only

[eldargal]

If it's trademarks that have been allowed by the case, such as the "to fit Games Workshop ___________" then yes, it's worth the risk, because it's been shown to be legally fine.

It's not as if it's the grey area it was previously, there's a clearly defined line that everyone can now work to to stay on the correct side of the rules.
I agree, I said days ago when the verdict was announced that there is considerably less grey area in the 3rd party bits industry than there was before and that's good. But it still doesn't translate to this being a massive GW loss. They sacrificed a tenth of one years profits at most to take a much smaller company to court and if they hadn't got free representation they would have buried them. Free representation of that calibre is hardly guaranteed, if I were a 3rd party producer I would still be quite keen to avoid making myself a target.

[Magpie]

Gw have said all along that they have no problem with parts being marketed with the label "to fit Games Workshop (specific kit name) "

[Caitsidhe]

Let me put something else into perspective...

*Most people (myself included) would never have heard of Chapterhouse if Games Workshop hadn't drawn attention to them.

You can't put a pricetag on the kind of advertising Chapterhouse got out of this affair. It certainly would have cost them more than 25K. :) When I say ignoring them would have been a better option, I wasn't kidding. I expect their sales went up a good deal once people knew they existed. I'd be willing to wager that they made far more money off this legal action than they lost.

In regards to Pro Bono representation, it isn't that hard to get whenever you face a large company like Games Workshop. I agree that you won't always get the quality Chapterhouse got, but now that legal precedent is down, it won't be needed. Whatever firm represents you (and there will be plenty wanting to get a bit of that action) will get to simply wash, rinse, repeat. Each time someone goes to court, there will be less and less Games Workshop can do because most people will simply be using the limit of the precedent. Let's be honest here. Games Workshop cares about COMPETITION. They said as much in court transcripts. They don't like ANY third party or after market producers. They saw this case as a hopeful start to getting rid of all of them, not just Chapterhouse. They wanted to crush Chapterhouse before it went to trial, driving them away and making an example of them before going from smaller to bigger fish.

That didn't happen. The Pro Bono seems to have caught them entirely by surprise. When the "make an example" of them didn't work, they resolved to go to Court and do it. They had bad legal advice. They had bad legal representation. Well... in fairness I don't know if they got bad legal advice. They may have gotten great advice (telling them NOT to do it) and they pressed on anyway. All that matters is the outcome. They didn't get what they wanted. Trying to dress up this sow's ear as a silk purse is kind of a waste of time. There is NOTHING Games Workshop can do on their end to eliminate competition. Other vendors will always be able to make product "for use" with their game. They will always be able to make bits "for use" with their game. The rules clarified by this precedent don't help Games Workshop. They only help other people get to market.

[eldargal]

There is NOTHING Games Workshop can do on their end to eliminate competition. Other vendors will always be able to make product "for use" with their game. They will always be able to make bits "for use" with their game. The rules clarified by this precedent don't help Games Workshop. They only help other people get to market.
Nothing GW have done indicate they want to stop any of that, indeed they said they were quite happy for people to make parts compatible and advertise them as such. The fact they targeted CHS rather than Scibor, Maxmini et al indicates not a desire to destroy the 3rd party bits industry but a problem with CHS in particular. CHS were notorious for using GW trademarks long before the lawsuit and many of those complaints were upheld by the court.

[Caitsidhe]

Nothing GW have done indicate they want to stop any of that, indeed they said they were quite happy for people to make parts compatible and advertise them as such. The fact they targeted CHS rather than Scibor, Maxmini et al indicates not a desire to destroy the 3rd party bits industry but a problem with CHS in particular. CHS were notorious for using GW trademarks long before the lawsuit and many of those complaints were upheld by the court.

I think their commentary on other companies (not just Chapterhouse) indicates exaclty how they feel about the cottage industry. That being said, it is funny that they lost on ALL the Trademark counts.

[Herzlos]

Yeah they've always made it clear they don't like any competition, and I think the only reasons they went for CHS first are (a) it's relatively small, (b) based in the US, and (c) more bold than most, with the aim of using them as an easy case to set precedence with before taking on bigger fish.

[eldargal]

Or they went after CHS because they were the company most blatantly exploiting GWs trademarks and copyrights for their own gain

[Mr Mystery]

Or they went after CHS because they were the company most blatantly exploiting GWs trademarks and copyrights for their own gain

Bingo.

Besides. What bigger fish?

[eldargal]

I'd imagine Scibor and Maximini etc. are all considerably larger than CHS at least in terms of catalogue size and turnover.

[Herzlos]

Or they went after CHS because they were the company most blatantly exploiting GWs trademarks and copyrights for their own gain

I'm not convinced hey'd have gone after CHS first if they were UK based (because the law is more likely to be on CHS's side) or were bigger (since it was essentially 1 man in his garage), or had any chance of defending himself without the help of a pro bono legal team.

What bigger fish? Almost anyone. Many of the other companies are smaller multi-member studios aren't they?

[lobster-overlord]

I'd imagine Scibor and Maximini etc. are all considerably larger than CHS at least in terms of catalogue size and turnover.

I agree with this, however, they don't go about using GW names etc. THey go with it being implied that they are for use with those, and I think that's what made CHS stand out above the rest. I'm happy that GW was put in their place for this. If other companies can sell printer cartridges for brand name units, why can't companies sell shoulder pads for space marines?

John M>

[Wolfshade]

Because printer cartridges have a shelf life and expire, whereas SM shoulder pads do not?

[phoenix01]

In commemoration of Chapterhouse Studios win against Games Workshop, I have decided to release my own limited edition miniature for sale. I call it the Spear Attack Jet Scooter and it is completely compatible with Chapterhouse Studios' miniature line.

4238

The first one will go for $25000 (to be put aside for any future ahem legal quandries)

[Psychosplodge]

In commemoration of Chapterhouse Studios win against Games Workshop, I have decided to release my own miniature for sale. I call it the Spear Attack Jet Scooter and it is completely compatible with Chapterhouse Studios' miniature line.

Is it compatible with Smeldar (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?24231-Abbey-Home-Studios-Warmace-400C)?

[DrLove42]

In commemoration of Chapterhouse Studios win against Games Workshop, I have decided to release my own limited edition miniature for sale. I call it the Spear Attack Jet Scooter and it is completely compatible with Chapterhouse Studios' miniature line.

4238

The first one will go for $25000 (to be put aside for any future ahem legal quandries)

I think this is completly fair. Any similarities are purely the result of a common ancestry of classic sci fi tropes

[phoenix01]

Eventually, I'll have my own line called the grey elder that can be sued, I mean used, for either smooth or spiky space elves. And of course a whole line of knock offs for the Heru-Ur Heresy, such as the Empress' Children, the Dead Guard, the Sons of Heru-Ur, and the Planet Eaters.

[Wolfshade]

Is it compatible with Smeldar (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?24231-Abbey-Home-Studios-Warmace-400C)?

I did think it looked more AbbeyHome...

[templarboy]

I think GW went after CHS because they are in the US. A bunch of the best third party producers are in Poland. I have no idea what the Polish legal system is like.

[RGilbert26]

I think GW went after CHS because they are in the US. A bunch of the best third party producers are in Poland. I have no idea what the Polish legal system is like.

They went after CHS because the owner had the arrogance to use the names in the first place and to give them the middle finger, regardless of outcome the guy is still a ****.

[Deadlift]

They went after CHS because the owner had the arrogance to use the names in the first place and to give them the middle finger, regardless of outcome the guy is still a ****.

Oh come on, you may not agree with CHS business practices. I know I certainly don't. But let's keep the debate somewhat civil without having to resort to name calling.

I personally think company's like mantic are just as guilty of the "unoriginality" tag. It's obvious to anyone their range isn't just targeted to people who play their games.

[Wolfshade]

I think GW went after CHS because they are in the US. A bunch of the best third party producers are in Poland. I have no idea what the Polish legal system is like.


I think this is a little naive. That is like saying Samsung sued Apple because they are from the US, or because Steve Jobs wore polo neck jumpers. It is totally irrelevant.

[Mr Mystery]

I think this is a little naive. That is like saying Samsung sued Apple because they are from the US, or because Steve Jobs wore polo neck jumpers. It is totally irrelevant.

Plus, Poland are part of the EU. Common laws would make it a lot more straight forward. Well. I'd imagine.

[Caitsidhe]

I think that Games Workshop and their subsidary Forge World have a lot more serious issues at stake. The number of quality recasts (i.e. direct copies) of their product are exploding. A lot of it seems to be coming from the Eastern Block. Wasting their time and the stockholder's money on litigation that is a loss for them even when they win is foolish twice over when counterfeit product is a real threat.

I am PRO competition.

I and AGAINST counterfeit.

[Wolfshade]

I think that the problem with the re-casters is that often they are not "proper businessess" so cease production, dissapear and then re-appear in some other guise, whereas places like CHS are legitimate companies (regardless of your view of their business model) and so any challenge is more likely to be possible.

There was a convesation on this board of someone on ebay selling casted LBTs, it was discussed and this one person said that they had reported that to ebay several times in the past, and that the images look the same each time, with the same description, shipping from the same location but because they would re-invent each time it was very hard to persue.

[DrLove42]

Also remember that counterfeiters are;

a) Already illegal
b) Mostly in countries that don't care
c) Rarely seized by customs as its not obvious they're fakes

[Caitsidhe]

I think that the problem with the re-casters is that often they are not "proper businessess" so cease production, dissapear and then re-appear in some other guise, whereas places like CHS are legitimate companies (regardless of your view of their business model) and so any challenge is more likely to be possible.

There was a convesation on this board of someone on ebay selling casted LBTs, it was discussed and this one person said that they had reported that to ebay several times in the past, and that the images look the same each time, with the same description, shipping from the same location but because they would re-invent each time it was very hard to persue.

Well Gams Workshop better start spending some money and finding a way to deal with it or they might as well hang it up. :) I'm not trying to be all gloom and doom but that is about the size of it. If someone can get their product at 50% (or more) off, a significant number of people are going to go get it that way. It might be very hard to pursue but it is a more important fight to take on. Ultimately if there is no legal recourse, Games Workshop better consider cutting prices to the point these people can't match them. I'm not saying it is fair. I'm just laying the cards on the table. In ten minutes you or I could go online and order just about anything Games Workshop makes at a substantial discount. That isn't going to change. It is only going to get worse.

Do I think the six or seven figures they dropped to chase Chapterhouse around would have been better spent elsewhere? Of course I do. It is a no-brainer. The market reality has some tough obstacles to overcome. Improved technology both in creating and reproducing models combined with improved technology in distribution (the internet) has altered the entire reality of this situation. Like it or not, the world has moved on and Games Workshop has to catch up. I'm not being a hater. I'm not being mean. This is just the state of things.

[Wolfshade]

There is no guarantee that reducing their price would increase their sales, there is a BoLS article that I normally cite when quoting this but I can't find it. The pile high sell low approach doesn't work in this sector.

I am not entirely convinced that a significant number of people will do as you suggest, though it depends what you mean by signficant I suppose. I generally either buy online from a discount retailer or as an impulse buy in GW direct (I have no independent FLGS) eitherway I know that the product is through GW and that is where my money ends up and I am happy with that.

There is also no guarantee that removing the counterfiet (very cheap) sellers would increase sales, Notch (of minecraft fame) argued that a pirated game is not a lost sale as there is no guarantee that the person would have paid for the game or even used it had they not priated it. In a similiar way, if the price of GW is beyond you even at 30% off then GW would have to slash prices (which would mean slashing costs, quality r & d, etc.) to try and get them. Whilst GW remain profitable they do not need to alter course in terms of pricing.

I think the problem with internet distribution is a problem that is going to have to be resolved, at the moment 3D printing is not of sufficient quality to be useful and indeed would need to come along way to be as cost effective as injection moulding (though I acknowledge that if you are just making your own copies you wouldn't have the same over heads of design et al that GW would have)

[Mr Mystery]

Price cuts....

If you work it out (don't have time right now!) if you cut your price by 20%, you need to up sales by 20%, just to break even on that particular deal.

20% sales increase is a massive, massive task, and frankly, a price cut won't achieve that.

Now I said 20% for a reason, because I roughly worked it out once using 20% as a ball park figure (I like round, easy numbers me). No idea if it scales the same with different percentages!

[Caitsidhe]

I'm not saying price cuts are the only way of dealing with counterfeits (although I think it is a lot more viable than you do). I'm saying that counterfeits are a much larger issue than third party vendors and bits sales. I think it is the problem Games Workshop needs to be dropping money on fighting.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not saying price cuts are the only way of dealing with counterfeits (although I think it is a lot more viable than you do). I'm saying that counterfeits are a much larger issue than third party vendors and bits sales. I think it is the problem Games Workshop needs to be dropping money on fighting.

How? Far, far harder to catch them.

[Herzlos]

How? Far, far harder to catch them.

Hence the need for investing more money in it.

And lets face it, if GW's customers can find these recasters, then GW must be able to do something about them without having to wait for customers to report it to them.

[Defenestratus]

I am not entirely convinced that a significant number of people will do as you suggest, though it depends what you mean by signficant I suppose.

Thing about it is that *you'll never know*. There was a guy who placed in the top 25% of a not-really-regional tournament whose models were all re-casts (except for the vehicles). Nobody knew.

How many people can resist $44 wraithknights that long when the quality is JUST AS good as what you get from GW?

[rle68]

now just playing devils advocate here but why on earth would we bother to report counterfeits to gw?

do they have a program to reward honest players?

we do the work for them and they turn around and raise prices? not much incentive to go out of our way and give them the info only to turn around and tell us thanks we dont care here is another price increase.

we have already established they will not close down.. so what would be the benefit to us the players to buy only what they sell and from no one else?

[Defenestratus]

now just playing devils advocate here but why on earth would we bother to report counterfeits to gw?

do they have a program to reward honest players?

we do the work for them and they turn around and raise prices? not much incentive to go out of our way and give them the info only to turn around and tell us thanks we dont care here is another price increase.

we have already established they will not close down.. so what would be the benefit to us the players to buy only what they sell and from no one else?

Another thing to remember is that household 3D printers are right around the corner. Makerbot was just bought up for $604m. I can't think of a company that would invest that kind of change and not be thinking of ways to put one in every house.

[rle68]

Couldnt agree more

[Caitsidhe]

How? Far, far harder to catch them.

Being harder to catch them is irrelevant. They are the people actually costing Games Workshop lots of money. If Games Workshop wants to go after someone, they might as well go after the prey that matters. If they are reconciled to the fact they "can't" catch said prey, they better come up with a new strategy entirely. Wasting money going after vendors that don't really cost them anything (and failing miserably) is just throwing good money after bad.

My own view is it is pointless to chase the counterfeiters just as much as it is pointless to chase small fry competition. It is too late for that. The costs of trying will aways outstrip the gains made and you can never slay these foes. They are a hydra that is immune even to burning the necks after decapitation. The only way Games Workshop is going to win this battle is by out-competing them, period. They cannot do that and maintain the business modely they currently employ.

I suspect they can sustain it a little while longer, at least until 3D Printers really come of age. This gives them perhaps 2-5 years more being Little Lord Fauntleroy. After that, who knows? I'm not going to predict they are going down in flames. They will adapt. It is what companies do. They will be forced to adopt policies they find laughable currently. Most people are reactive rather than proactive. It is my opinion that if they were proactive here they could secure their hegemony through their competitive edge, but I'm realistic enough to know that this isn't going to happen. They still don't see the writing on the wall.

[Clockwork]

Being harder to catch them is irrelevant. They are the people actually costing Games Workshop lots of money. If Games Workshop wants to go after someone, they might as well go after the prey that matters. If they are reconciled to the fact they "can't" catch said prey, they better come up with a new strategy entirely. Wasting money going after vendors that don't really cost them anything (and failing miserably) is just throwing good money after bad.

My own view is it is pointless to chase the counterfeiters just as much as it is pointless to chase small fry competition. It is too late for that. The costs of trying will aways outstrip the gains made and you can never slay these foes. They are a hydra that is immune even to burning the necks after decapitation. The only way Games Workshop is going to win this battle is by out-competing them, period. They cannot do that and maintain the business modely they currently employ.

I suspect they can sustain it a little while longer, at least until 3D Printers really come of age. This gives them perhaps 2-5 years more being Little Lord Fauntleroy. After that, who knows? I'm not going to predict they are going down in flames. They will adapt. It is what companies do. They will be forced to adopt policies they find laughable currently. Most people are reactive rather than proactive. It is my opinion that if they were proactive here they could secure their hegemony through their competitive edge, but I'm realistic enough to know that this isn't going to happen. They still don't see the writing on the wall.

I don't see how 3d printers will kill GW when you can already put together an army for dirt cheap by getting a casting kit and doing it yourself.

Let's face it the things that can kill GW already exist, but they haven't. Why? Because a majority of the community doesn't care about that, they want their plastic crack from GW and that's it. They don't care about casting kits, or recasters, or 3rd party companies, they just want their armies to push about the table and that's it.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't see how 3d printers will kill GW when you can already put together an army for dirt cheap by getting a casting kit and doing it yourself.

Because most people are lazy and don't do things themselves unless most of it is done for them. You are correct that we can already go to Hobby Lobby get a casting kit and everything we need to make our own endless line of models. That is, however, a bit more work than most lazy slobs are willing to do. There are certainly ENOUGH people doing it already and some already selling their wares. Once 3D Printers allow them to just download a file and print one out ready to paint, it is gonig to be a whole new world. Cheap, 3D scanners already exist. The only thing we are waiting for is the economical printer.


Let's face it the things that can kill GW already exist, but they haven't. Why? Because a majority of the community doesn't care about that, they want their plastic crack from GW and that's it. They don't care about casting kits, or recasters, or 3rd party companies, they just want their armies to push about the table and that's it.

I disagree. Most people don't give a rat's patootie about Games Workshop and just want the toys. I'm exposed to a pretty large cross section of several META and I can tell you that the number of "recasts" are on the rise dramatically (both personal and bought off the internet). The simple truth is that many people just want MORE of their plastic crack (as you put it) and if they can buy or make it for less, it means they end up with MORE.

[Wolfshade]

Yeah but those too lazy people would also be too lazy to print their own army.

Also, alot of people are quite protective of their hobby. While we may disagree with rules and/or pricing, we recognise that if it were not for the hobby we would not wargame and we will report them. It is not because we love GW, though we certainly do, we have a fundamental thought of what is right and things which are not right we do not like and wish to amend.

[Clockwork]

Yeah but those too lazy people would also be too lazy to print their own army.

Also, alot of people are quite protective of their hobby. While we may disagree with rules and/or pricing, we recognise that if it were not for the hobby we would not wargame and we will report them. It is not because we love GW, though we certainly do, we have a fundamental thought of what is right and things which are not right we do not like and wish to amend.

Agreed. There are ways around everything, but frankly we also know if we want to keep getting new things we know we need to pay for stuff now.

[Chris Copeland]

I suspect that affordable 3d printers will dramatically change the hobby. I know MANY enthusiastic GW loyalists who trade digital files willy-nilly... they swap movie files, music, and digital books without giving it much thought..

[rle68]

Yeah but those too lazy people would also be too lazy to print their own army.

Also, alot of people are quite protective of their hobby. While we may disagree with rules and/or pricing, we recognise that if it were not for the hobby we would not wargame and we will report them. It is not because we love GW, though we certainly do, we have a fundamental thought of what is right and things which are not right we do not like and wish to amend.

your awfully self serving claiming we love GW when obviously not everyone does

[DarkLink]

Another thing to remember is that household 3D printers are right around the corner. Makerbot was just bought up for $604m. I can't think of a company that would invest that kind of change and not be thinking of ways to put one in every house.

Or at least in your local, I dunno, OfficeMax or something. They will be common, and the market will have to find a way to accommodate them, or they will undermine all the current businesses and new upstarts will take over.

[Clockwork]

your awfully self serving claiming we love GW when obviously not everyone does

You must be failing to take into consideration that anything that can kill GW can kill every company that is riding it's coattails with conversion kits, and all the other smaller wargaming companies too.

Plus if GW goes under, no more new 40k stuff anymore. No more new codexes, units, video games, novels, ect. I know a lot of people who'd miss that stuff.

[Lexington]

Yeah but those too lazy people would also be too lazy to print their own army.
Depends on how difficult the printing is, really. Casting a complicated miniature in resin is actually pretty difficult, surprisingly expensive and prone to several mishaps if you're not doing things correctly. Look at the problems that even a large, experienced company like GW has had with Finecast, where their miniatures are still turning out substandard if they weren't specifically sculpted for the material.

Home 3D printing, on the other hand, will be a much easier process within the foreseeable future. That's where GW and the other minis producers are going to have a problem. It's not a future the current business model will do well in, sadly.


It is not because we love GW, though we certainly do, we have a fundamental thought of what is right and things which are not right we do not like and wish to amend.
Well, this is where I see GW as having the biggest risk among current minis producers. I've seen a ton of re-casting sites out there, and none of them have Privateer Press product on there, f'rex, even though they do have re-casts of products from smaller companies like Corvus Belli and Wyrd. I imagine that has something to do with the loyalty Privateer's cultivated within their fan base, ensuring that a wide majority of their customers wouldn't buy a counterfeit model even at a reduced price. Say what you want about Privateer, but quite a bit of their fanbase is wild about them.

GW's the opposite - they all but actively antagonize their customer base, and rather constantly make life difficult for the independent retail outlets that gamers deal with in a face-to-face manner, which creates quite a bit of resentment. I'd bet that quite a bit of the moral opposition to buying counterfeit material drops away when dealing with an entity that seems to go out of its way to be adversarial. Given the speed at which these sort of outlets seem to be popping up and GW's inability to legally counter them, it may well become a big problem for them in the near future.

[rle68]

You must be failing to take into consideration that anything that can kill GW can kill every company that is riding it's coattails with conversion kits, and all the other smaller wargaming companies too.

Plus if GW goes under, no more new 40k stuff anymore. No more new codexes, units, video games, novels, ect. I know a lot of people who'd miss that stuff.

and do you think someone wouldnt step in to replace them?.. all it would take is someone else writing a new set of rules that didnt mention warhammer and you could use your old models... i could go from writing to printing in 6 weeks or less... fyi i already did it... sitting on a pen drive the basic rules are done i havent done the "army books "yet

[daboarder]

So you think this game is any good without the 25+ years of background?

Because if it wasn't for the background I wouldn't be playing this game

[Clockwork]

and do you think someone wouldnt step in to replace them?.. all it would take is someone else writing a new set of rules that didnt mention warhammer and you could use your old models... i could go from writing to printing in 6 weeks or less... fyi i already did it... sitting on a pen drive the basic rules are done i havent done the "army books "yet

Okay, you've replaced them. I can safely assume no one is going to do it for free (I'm sorry, but I know I wouldn't write a whole bunch of rules and then expect to make no money once so ever one it), and pirating the rules (assuming those aren't free) and the models won't make people any money.

So GW dies, and then slowly everyone else does too. Assuming you've got the capital, do you really want to jump into a market that is gearing up to kill your company even before you get started?

Anything that can kill GW as still as great of a threat to everyone else, and I don't see many people stepping up to provide free games and miniature lines for everyone to play just because they want to play a game. If anything I'd expect a lot of home brews that don't go outside of the local area.

[DarkLink]

So you think this game is any good without the 25+ years of background?

Because if it wasn't for the background I wouldn't be playing this game

Warmachine!!!!

Actually, I also play 40k because it's the easiest to find opponents for.

[daboarder]

personally I can't get into warmachine, the background just doesn't do it for me.

No Flames of War and X-wing are where its at for me if its not warhammer.

[Faultie]

Well, this is where I see GW as having the biggest risk among current minis producers. I've seen a ton of re-casting sites out there, and none of them have Privateer Press product on there, f'rex, even though they do have re-casts of products from smaller companies like Corvus Belli and Wyrd. I imagine that has something to do with the loyalty Privateer's cultivated within their fan base, ensuring that a wide majority of their customers wouldn't buy a counterfeit model even at a reduced price. Say what you want about Privateer, but quite a bit of their fanbase is wild about them.

GW's the opposite - they all but actively antagonize their customer base, and rather constantly make life difficult for the independent retail outlets that gamers deal with in a face-to-face manner, which creates quite a bit of resentment. I'd bet that quite a bit of the moral opposition to buying counterfeit material drops away when dealing with an entity that seems to go out of its way to be adversarial. Given the speed at which these sort of outlets seem to be popping up and GW's inability to legally counter them, it may well become a big problem for them in the near future.

I would also say that a strength Privateer Press has is that they run their organized play as a pretty tight ship. They write the various format rules (which include modeling and conversion restrictions), run events at major cons, and have an expanding international volunteer corps that organize local and regional events. They maintain some limited control over the actual playing of the game, at least a competitive level, and so can therefore more actively ensure that other company's miniatures are not substituted for their own, and can somewhat battle the resin knockoff issue (I've seen a guy get removed from an event for having an all-resin unit of Steelheads, whereas the actual unit is metal). Other game companies have gone that route to a greater or lesser extent, and gain some of the same controls.

[Sainhann]

So you think this game is any good without the 25+ years of background?

Because if it wasn't for the background I wouldn't be playing this game

Thing is the game was far more fun to play 20 years ago then today.

The then GW was a far different company back then as well.

[daboarder]

Thing is the game was far more fun to play 20 years ago then today.

The then GW was a far different company back then as well.

No back then GW was a garage project, If you dislike it so much go away. Also what the hell was the relevance of that post in relation to a comment on the game having a deep background story?

[Bigred]

3-4 years ago when it was obvious GW was slowly backpedaling away from the tournament scene here in the US, Adepticon and the folks who would go on to found the large indys such as WarGamesCon, NOVA, Feast of Blades, etc could see that this would backfire. When GW was engaging and supporting the TOs, they could gladly set down guidelines like "only GW miniatures" rules to be in place.

Once they left the organized play world entirely, all of that went away as well, and you now see all kinds of customized and converted armies. Heck probably 90% of all the zombies at Adepticon in the Fantasy tournament were Mantic ones for example.

[rle68]

Okay, you've replaced them. I can safely assume no one is going to do it for free (I'm sorry, but I know I wouldn't write a whole bunch of rules and then expect to make no money once so ever one it), and pirating the rules (assuming those aren't free) and the models won't make people any money.

So GW dies, and then slowly everyone else does too. Assuming you've got the capital, do you really want to jump into a market that is gearing up to kill your company even before you get started?

Anything that can kill GW as still as great of a threat to everyone else, and I don't see many people stepping up to provide free games and miniature lines for everyone to play just because they want to play a game. If anything I'd expect a lot of home brews that don't go outside of the local area.

what im saying is that the dexes and rules could be done without gw being in business anymore..getting new models is another issue in and of itself

[Dalleron]

If GW did die, or the more likely thing being some other entity buying them, their product would not die. I can't see a world with so much time and $$ invested in it just going away. Times they are a changing is the saying I believe. It is will be interesting to see how GW goes with the times. Maybe some people who care about the hobby and the world could be placed in positions to make a difference.

So basically, GW may die if they can't adapt to the new ways of the world, but I don't see their products dieing. Someone would scoop them up.

[Wolfshade]

your awfully self serving claiming we love GW when obviously not everyone does

If we did not then why is the forum so large and why are it's memebers so passionate about the Hobby. Heck, most things are posted in 40k General because that is where people most often look. I love the background, the books, the models, I don't agree with all their decisions but ultimately I think a lot of people would not wargame (or would have got into wargaming) had it not been for GW.


Home 3D printing, on the other hand, will be a much easier process within the foreseeable future. That's where GW and the other minis producers are going to have a problem. It's not a future the current business model will do well in, sadly.
We are a long way off this being viable, that is not to say that it isn't coming, but if someone is pirating the stuff this does not necessarily mean that GW have lost a sale. Indeed, look at all the people that pirate games/music they wouldn't have brought all those games/music had they had no option they would have just done without. But what we have to understand is the price of the miniature is not the couple of gramms of plastic that it takes to make it, indeed that is probably the single smallest consideration. It is the time and effort in designing it in the first place, testing rules, running shops etc.



Well, this is where I see GW as having the biggest risk among current minis producers. I've seen a ton of re-casting sites out there, and none of them have Privateer Press product on there, f'rex, even though they do have re-casts of products from smaller companies like Corvus Belli and Wyrd. I imagine that has something to do with the loyalty Privateer's cultivated within their fan base, ensuring that a wide majority of their customers wouldn't buy a counterfeit model even at a reduced price. Say what you want about Privateer, but quite a bit of their fanbase is wild about them.
Given that GW are the largest wargame miniature manufacturer it makes sense that they are most frequently copied. Heck, I couldn't tell you where I could obtain PP stuff from a physical store near me, let alone if anyone plays their game. PWC did a market analysis a few years back and cited that 95p in ever £1 was spent with GW in the miniature wargaming market.


GW's the opposite - they all but actively antagonize their customer base, and rather constantly make life difficult for the independent retail outlets that gamers deal with in a face-to-face manner, which creates quite a bit of resentment. I'd bet that quite a bit of the moral opposition to buying counterfeit material drops away when dealing with an entity that seems to go out of its way to be adversarial. Given the speed at which these sort of outlets seem to be popping up and GW's inability to legally counter them, it may well become a big problem for them in the near future.
These independents, how much of their revenue is based on teh GW lines? You say they are being adverserial, I say that they are utilising common industry practice. If you don't like it, don't stock it. A national book/magazine retailer (WHSmith) imposed similiar stringent rules on GW for stocking WD nationally. Eventually, they wanted to control so much of how it was displayed where and how many copies it would stock that for GW they stopped suppliing it to them. I would argue that the WD readership has actually increased since then. So if GW can make direct sales themselves then this is only for the good of the company. GW do a lot to introduce new gamers to the world, with their physical stores, they put effort and time teaching people to play and how to paint and all other good things and I am sure that seperate stockists do this, but in the UK most cities have a GW in the centre of the urban shopping district. There are no flgs in those locations, those are out of the way and in obscure places so that you have to know that they exist in order to get to them, no passing trade on an industrial estate...


and do you think someone wouldnt step in to replace them?.. all it would take is someone else writing a new set of rules that didnt mention warhammer and you could use your old models... i could go from writing to printing in 6 weeks or less... fyi i already did it... sitting on a pen drive the basic rules are done i havent done the "army books "yet

Somebody would, but would they run all the physical stores, would they be able to have such a multi-media precense, I've not heard of mantic books or a warmachine video game. Let us not forget when DnD went open there were some brilliant modules and there were some hoorendous ones. Some of the home brew rules were just horrible.


I would also say that a strength Privateer Press has is that they run their organized play as a pretty tight ship. They write the various format rules (which include modeling and conversion restrictions), run events at major cons, and have an expanding international volunteer corps that organize local and regional events. They maintain some limited control over the actual playing of the game, at least a competitive level, and so can therefore more actively ensure that other company's miniatures are not substituted for their own, and can somewhat battle the resin knockoff issue (I've seen a guy get removed from an event for having an all-resin unit of Steelheads, whereas the actual unit is metal). Other game companies have gone that route to a greater or lesser extent, and gain some of the same controls.

Sounds very similiar to what GW did previous. Remeber their tournies and outriders?


Thing is the game was far more fun to play 20 years ago then today.

The then GW was a far different company back then as well.

GW were much smaller, but I have to say as much as I look back at RTB I find this ruleset to be much more user friendly.


what im saying is that the dexes and rules could be done without gw being in business anymore..getting new models is another issue in and of itself
But who would balance them, who would say what they authorititive dex was, each contributoer would play to their own rules which would have its own internal balance. You would just form various schisms as there would not be a universal code. Imagine if just the large online fora came to a concessous, it would be oh yes I play BoLS 40k, oh sorry I only use Dakka v1.4 or what have you.


If GW did die, or the more likely thing being some other entity buying them, their product would not die. I can't see a world with so much time and $$ invested in it just going away. Times they are a changing is the saying I believe. It is will be interesting to see how GW goes with the times. Maybe some people who care about the hobby and the world could be placed in positions to make a difference.

So basically, GW may die if they can't adapt to the new ways of the world, but I don't see their products dieing. Someone would scoop them up.

I think GW have got in their favour is their longevity. They know this market very well, and while we may not like some of their more "protectionist" moves one could argue that they put GW in a stronger position.

Throughout this post though remember we all have different experiances of GW, in the UK most retailers are GW branches and there just aren't that many flgs and those that do exist rely on the conversion work that the GW phsycial stores do.

[Defenestratus]

Given that GW are the largest wargame miniature manufacturer it makes sense that they are most frequently copied. Heck, I couldn't tell you where I could obtain PP stuff from a physical store near me, let alone if anyone plays their game. PWC did a market analysis a few years back and cited that 95p in ever £1 was spent with GW in the miniature wargaming market.

HAHA

Its almost the direct opposite in the last two markets I've been a part of.

The LGS have barely any GW stock, certainly never the kit/blisters you want at the time and meanwhile the warmachine rack is stocked and the tables are being used for warmachine games.

Last month's warmachine tournament? 23 players.
Last month's warhammer 40k tournament? 10.

Before I left Atlanta, I was one of about 5 GW players left in a store that was started by ex-GW staff and whose store's customer base came from the GW store they ran. The rest of the store ended up played Warmachine and FoW.

My point is that you cannot use anecdotal evidence to support your claims that Warmachine is pitiful compared to GW since its clearly not the case around the world.

[rle68]

"""But who would balance them, who would say what they authorititive dex was, each contributoer would play to their own rules which would have its own internal balance. You would just form various schisms as there would not be a universal code. Imagine if just the large online fora came to a concessous, it would be oh yes I play BoLS 40k, oh sorry I only use Dakka v1.4 or what have you."""

thats a cop out...who balances them now? what do we get every time a dex comes out we get a 70 plus page whine fest complaining about the newest dex...if someone came to market with a replacement.. there wouldnt be alot of difference now.. and im not talking about internet rules.. no one wants to play adepticon 40k...but if a published book called oh i dont know..CONFLICT: TERRA were to come out and it was 40k without the 40k baggage the hobby would march along for awhile till someone came out with new models or what have you

[Mr Mystery]

He didn't say Warmarhordes was pitiful. Or indeed anything of the like.

Nor did he present his anecdote as data.

But hey, the whine must flow!

[Wolfshade]

My point is that you cannot use anecdotal evidence to support your claims that Warmachine is pitiful compared to GW since its clearly not the case around the world.

So you use ancedotal evidence to show that my alleged ancedotal evidence is wrong...

Obviously independent market research my one of the largest accountancy firms is ancedotal evidence /sigh.

The only thing I said of warmachine was this "I've not heard of mantic books or a warmachine video game", nothing to do with them being pitful.

GW balances them now, they are all balanced across themselves. There is a single source which every one agrees is authorititve. Just because people complain and whine about something doesn't meen that it is OP. Every new dex that comes out the same old complaints about it being over powered, I am not sure how ever codex can be overpowered.

[rle68]

HAHA

Its almost the direct opposite in the last two markets I've been a part of.

The LGS have barely any GW stock, certainly never the kit/blisters you want at the time and meanwhile the warmachine rack is stocked and the tables are being used for warmachine games.

Last month's warmachine tournament? 23 players.
Last month's warhammer 40k tournament? 10.

Before I left Atlanta, I was one of about 5 GW players left in a store that was started by ex-GW staff and whose store's customer base came from the GW store they ran. The rest of the store ended up played Warmachine and FoW.

My point is that you cannot use anecdotal evidence to support your claims that Warmachine is pitiful compared to GW since its clearly not the case around the world.

i know what you mean in my area we did the lets leave gw alone for awhile and we all started warmachine.. it was great we had like 12-15 people involved then the .. professional warmachine players started showing up and wanted to do 50-60 point tournaments and wed been playing for 3 weeks... kind of killed off the feeling

now.. havent seen a game of warmachine played in months

[Deadlift]

Lets be honest, GW isn't going anywhere. It may lose a portion of its market share but I still think it will dominate. After all some may not like their products but for many even those that don't play 40k or fantasy now it was still their gateway into the hobby.

[Herzlos]

Given that GW are the largest wargame miniature manufacturer it makes sense that they are most frequently copied. Heck, I couldn't tell you where I could obtain PP stuff from a physical store near me, let alone if anyone plays their game. PWC did a market analysis a few years back and cited that 95p in ever £1 was spent with GW in the miniature wargaming market.

When was this done? I could see it having been the case maybe 10 years ago, but going by the local convention scene I don't think they have close to the same dominance.


Somebody would, but would they run all the physical stores, would they be able to have such a multi-media precense, I've not heard of mantic books or a warmachine video game.

Indeed they don't, but also don't forget that GW had at least a 20 year head start on Mantic or PP, both who have been growing at a huge rate. GW never had any multi-media presence or fiction writing wing when they were the age Mantic or PP are now. Maybe one day they'll have expanded in the same way, maybe they won't.

[Herzlos]

Lets be honest, GW isn't going anywhere. It may lose a portion of its market share but I still think it will dominate. After all some may not like their products but for many even those that don't play 40k or fantasy now it was still their gateway into the hobby.

Whilst GW remains the gateway game and has the critical mass behind it, it'll be unassailable and keep it's market dominance. But I'm not convinced it'll always be the gateway game as other games are gaining in awareness. If new players were to start coming in via X-Wing or Warmachine, why would they jump over to GW?

[Defenestratus]

So you use ancedotal evidence to show that my alleged ancedotal evidence is wrong...

Obviously independent market research my one of the largest accountancy firms is ancedotal evidence /sigh.

Well since you didn't link your reference, I couldn't go check the source to see what the parameters on it. Given your indicated location and the currency that you posted, I'd suspect that the study revolved around the UK market - which I'd completely find believable in GW's homecourt.

I have a very deep seated resentment over PP. I *loathe* them for stealing players away from the games that I play.

[Deadlift]

Whilst GW remains the gateway game and has the critical mass behind it, it'll be unassailable and keep it's market dominance. But I'm not convinced it'll always be the gateway game as other games are gaining in awareness. If new players were to start coming in via X-Wing or Warmachine, why would they jump over to GW?

Good looking models ? But I do see your point.

[Defenestratus]

i know what you mean in my area we did the lets leave gw alone for awhile and we all started warmachine.. it was great we had like 12-15 people involved then the .. professional warmachine players started showing up and wanted to do 50-60 point tournaments and wed been playing for 3 weeks... kind of killed off the feeling

now.. havent seen a game of warmachine played in months

I kind of get the same impression from the WM crowd. They take their games way too seriously and it kills the fun for me. I also loathe and despise the game in general so my opinion on the matter is a bit less than objective.

[Herzlos]

Good looking models ? But I do see your point.

That's purely subjective though. Whilst they've got some good sculpts, they've also got some trash, and IMHO a lot of it isn't worth the price premium over other games. Though I'm sure it'll definitely appeal to some.

[Wolfshade]

When was this done? I could see it having been the case maybe 10 years ago, but going by the local convention scene I don't think they have close to the same dominance.
The cop out it was the last report of its sort, it is referenced in one of the annual reports. But it is certainly not within the last couple of years.



Indeed we don't, but also don't forget that GW had at least a 20 year head start on Mantic or PP, both who have been growing at a huge rate. GW never had any multi-media presence or fiction writing wing when they were the age Mantic or PP are now. Maybe one day they'll have expanded in the same way, maybe they won't.

Of course the smaller firms are going to grow faster, the question is are they gathering new players or converting existing ones? I don't know the answer to that.
I don't think it is a fair comparison to compare what mantic or PP are now compared to GW when they were that age, for a start GW only started producing minatures about 5 years in. Also, 1980s and 2010s are really very seperate worlds. You also have to consider (well you don't have to but it is worth it) that GW is a sucessful firm that has created a player base and formulated a structure/business model that other compaies will try and emulate to some larger or smaller extent. In the same way comparing Kia to Ford after 10 years of operation isn't a good comaprison.

Also, why do we seem to be saying that we can only play one system?s

[Herzlos]

Indeed it's not a straight comparison between a company that grew in the 1980's and one in the 2010's, but you can't expect a new company to have anything like as diverse a range as one thats 30 years old.

I suspect the majority of Mantics customers in the past have been GW customers who've moved on, but with things like Dreadball and Deadzone I think it'll be drawing in new (to gaming) customers instead of just stealing market share.

And yes, GW has done pretty well for itself, getting to the size it has done, but it's done so in a completely different market to that in which current companies are growing. And with the scale of GW it shouldn't be struggling to match the industry growth rate (It must be capable of outdeveloping these smaller companies by an order of magnitude unless beaurocracy is hampering it). We certainly owe a lot to GW though (particularly the advances in mini design and manufacture), as without them I doubt the smaller companies would be as advanced as they are now.


I've no idea why people seem to think we can only have 1 system either. I guess everyone has a main system, but I've currently got 5 different games systems on the go (40K, Bolt Action, Empire Of The Dead, Hail Caesar, 7ombieTV) and expanding.

[rle68]

its not we can only have 1 system its alot of people cant afford more than 1 system..gw has priced this out of an everydays person market

[Wolfshade]

I don't see what the problem with that is. I can't afford a aston martin, they keep screwing their coomunity with overly expensive cars...

Also, I do not see the massive price difference between them to be honest.

[Lexington]

We are a long way off this being viable, that is not to say that it isn't coming, but if someone is pirating the stuff this does not necessarily mean that GW have lost a sale.
I've always found the "not all piracy loses sales" logic to be a little dubious - just look at the music industry, where the ease and low risks of piracy are closer to what we're likely to see with 3D printers and the miniatures industry (and any other industry based around non-complex material products) soon enough. It's not a problem exclusive to GW, but it's one that might hit them harder than others for reasons I've already outlined.


These independents, how much of their revenue is based on teh GW lines? You say they are being adverserial, I say that they are utilising common industry practice. If you don't like it, don't stock it.
Well, that sums up the problem GW faces right there - "don't like it, don't buy it, our way/highway, our policies are our policies, the end." That's the only way GW ever deals with the public, and it has some serious consequences for them - the "Spots the Space Marine" being the biggest example. They had, unquestionably, the largest set of eyeballs ever exposed to their product, an opportunity to deftly gain some public goodwill, and they squandered it by showing their ***** and closing down one of the bigges public avenues for communication with their company. It was an amazingly stupid way to go about things, but because of their toxic attitude towards engagement with the world at large, it's the way they went.

It's things like this that poison GW's relationship with their fanbase, and undoubtedly makes piracy an acceptable practice to a far larger portion of their customer base than it needs to be. Sure, it probably won't kill them, but it'll eat away at their margins in a way that's only necessitated by their own petulance. This is something they need to work on as a public entity.

[rle68]

I don't see what the problem with that is. I can't afford a aston martin, they keep screwing their coomunity with overly expensive cars...

Also, I do not see the massive price difference between them to be honest.

you dont see a problem? ok then i guess when your kid says dad i want in 40k i want a new army and you go shell out 2k you have no issue with that ? ok well im glad you can drop 2k like its nothing not everyone can.

even just buying a battle force codex and rule book is almost 300 bux...

[rle68]

and if anyone thinks gw doesnt play favorites then you are living in fantasy land... over the years how many things have gone direct sales only cutting out the local game stores

you think that allocation is in the independents favor over their own stores? if you think that then your an idiot.

its simple economics.. they sell at full retail they make 45% more then if they sell to a indy store.. now if they cut out indy all the way whos to challenge them? no one .. then i promise you you will see 100.00 box sets for troops

[Deadlift]

Any parent who shells out 2k on a new hobby for a child is a Moron, which is why that example is bollocks. If you have kids you know they change hobbyist like the wind. Your really going to extremes to try and prove point.

[rle68]

Any parent who shells out 2k on a new hobby for a child is a Moron, which is why that example is bollocks. If you have kids you know they change hobbyist like the wind. Your really going to extremes to try and prove point.

you have never seen a kid walk in to a store get enamored with 40k and ask mom to buy them a battle force and when she finds out she needs to spend almost 300.00 to get them the rules they walk out?... i have .. many times and 300 is just the basics.. leave out dark vengeance black reach etc etc those sets are not complete

lets see my neices ballet is 7k a year for costumes new shoes classes etc cheerleading is another 4k.. you want to say something else about 2k?

[Yetisam]

I don't get the parents that would spend 2k on a new hobby?

I don't get to spend 2k on my hobby!

I want my kids to get into GW stuff I have enjoyed playing 40k since 2nd edition. But If they wanted it, I would make them save for it not just walk into a GW and spend 2k.

GW is not a cheap hobby never has been, But the basics sets are the gateway and need to be cheaper to get more people involved. If it was £40 in the GW rather then £60 then I probably would have got it when I was last in town.

Overall GW needs to go back to working with 3rd parties - Space crusade, Hero quest etc as those were so many peoples first touch points with the company.

[Faultie]

Sounds very similiar to what GW did previous. Remeber their tournies and outriders?Exactly my point. Although they did not support it to the extent that PP seems to, they did have a program. And that had benefits. And then they killed the program and, as BigRed says, now they have no say in what models are allowed and disallowed in the organized play scene. This is great for hobbyists, but maybe not so great for their own bottom line.

[Nabterayl]

In my experience, parents who invest that kind of money in a hobby do so because they think that it's somehow important that the child continue in it, they tend not to have to do so up front, and participation for the child is in some way mandatory. In many athletic disciplines, such as dance, that kind of money is something you spend over the course of the year (e.g., in expensive lessons) and only in large chunks once a child has become fairly advanced (and thus, has some track record of making good use of the money). When you do have to spend a large amount of money upfront (American football, for instance), the child is not generally allowed to back out - a parent who drops a thousand dollars on sports equipment is not going to let her kid stop playing until the end of the season unless there's a very good reason.

If you're going to spend a large amount of money on a child's hobby, either the child needs a track record of making good use of the money or the parent needs a way to ensure that the child doesn't quit. It's difficult to get either of those with 40K.

[Wolfshade]

This the article relating to Notch's comment: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/08/notch-if-someone-copies-your-game-a-trillion-times-you-wont-have-a-single-lost-sale/
I can see where it is coming from, how many people do you know have a music collection that they could never afford.

Part of being a parent is teaching their children the value of money, if you can't afford something then you can't afford it there is no use whining about it. Do you complain that other luxury goods are too expensive? The whole point of them is that they are luxury items. You say kids go without, well that is not my problem, my local gaming group contains no kids. We budget and spend money when we want, how we want. So rle if you are willing to drop a couple of k on your children for their activities, why not do it on 40k? My 40k habbit was self funded all the way, my newspaper route and other "saturday jobs". I did not drop into my parents pockets for this sort of thing.

As Nabterayl says, in lots of children's activities they cost a lot of money upfront, child wants to learn to play the guitar, well you need to afford to buy the guitar (amp if it's electric) + lessons.

Faultie, perhaps they have scalled back because they have reached a high enough saturation? GW stopped supporting tournies in part response to claims that GW was just for tourney players? So they move away from that small subset to a larger set. The casual/narrative gamer.

[rle68]

ill give you a prime example of gw's deceptive price increase.. new dex... new dire avengers box set.... old box set 10 models for 40.00 .. new box set 5 models for a whopping discounted price of 35.00.. now to fill out a 10 man unit the cost is now 70.00 a 75% price increase

they did however make squadron boxes.. but again the single model is going away so instead of 15.00 for a single jetbike you pay 42.00 for 3 you do save 3.00.. thats real nice of them.. same for war walkers

[rle68]

This the article relating to Notch's comment: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/08/notch-if-someone-copies-your-game-a-trillion-times-you-wont-have-a-single-lost-sale/
I can see where it is coming from, how many people do you know have a music collection that they could never afford.

Part of being a parent is teaching their children the value of money, if you can't afford something then you can't afford it there is no use whining about it. Do you complain that other luxury goods are too expensive? The whole point of them is that they are luxury items. You say kids go without, well that is not my problem, my local gaming group contains no kids. We budget and spend money when we want, how we want. So rle if you are willing to drop a couple of k on your children for their activities, why not do it on 40k? My 40k habbit was self funded all the way, my newspaper route and other "saturday jobs". I did not drop into my parents pockets for this sort of thing.

As Nabterayl says, in lots of children's activities they cost a lot of money upfront, child wants to learn to play the guitar, well you need to afford to buy the guitar (amp if it's electric) + lessons.

Faultie, perhaps they have scalled back because they have reached a high enough saturation? GW stopped supporting tournies in part response to claims that GW was just for tourney players? So they move away from that small subset to a larger set. The casual/narrative gamer.

well when i was a kid there were such things as paper routes now paper routes are run by fat old men in beat up station wagins making ends meet as their social security isnt cutting it.. there are not a lot of options for pre teens to make that kind of money .. i dont support giving kids everything they want for free i sure didnt get it that way and im betting alot of you didnt either
im sorry if my niece wants to spend 300 bux to play 40k with me thats fine but id rather spend 300 bucks and buy her a laptop for her school

when you start comparing the cost of essentials versus this gw is gonna lose out.. 50 bucks for warithguard or 2 pairs of shoes? hmmm i know where im going to spend my money...

example my neice wanted to see taylor swift she saved for her ticket came time to buy her ticket i asked her who she was going with .. she replied you and my aunt.. are you buying us tickets? she looked at me silly until she realized what it would cost then she didnt want to go. same can be said for 40k

"dad im going to the game store to buy some paint can i have 5 bux for lunch?" dads reply, " you dont need paint use your own money for lunch" and hed be right...

when you can look at a can of gw black and the cost here is 15.00 there is something wrong with gw and the idiots running the assylum

im even willing to bet we will see another price increase to cover the cost of the legal fees they incurred in their epic miscalculation