Daemons Rumours

[Mr Mystery]

Just give them a bit of dakka and they'll do down quick enough.

Daemonettes sound saucy for 9 points. But they have to make combat. And at T3 with a 5+ save....that's not exactly a given. As such, they'll need to be pokey when it comes to fisticuffs!

I reckon we'll see much calmer views once the book is properly in hand in our preferred languages. 90% of the time, filthy things are tempered once we see the limitations of them, such as 'yes that sounded filthy but the chances of getting it are low' or 'So you can't combine it in that way? Cool'

[Caitsidhe]

@Caitsidhe: I can understand that. I don't particularly like playing against horde armies myself. Mostly though, I think Daemon armies probably won't go all-out horde; whilst they will have a lot more models than most other codices, they will still have a lot of big beasties to compensate. Based on those rules, a Slaanesh army could field two blocks of 20 Daemonettes with 2 Heralds of Slaanesh with the re-rolls to hit Locus for about 500 points, meaning that they still have 1000 points left for things like 12 point Seekers, 170 point Keepers of Secrets, 155 to 260 point Daemon Princes or 35 point Fiends of Slaanesh. Sounds almost like a Tyranid army in some respects. I think though that Tzeentch Daemons will end up making great allies - it is about 65-70 points for a cheap Divination Herald with Prescience and a Tzeentch power. Pop him with a cheap five-strong squad of Horrors, keep him near your backfield units and give the gift of re-rolls to Havocs, Obliterators and the like. I just think it is great personally that I can run a lot more lesser daemons than before whilst still keeping up a high number of greater daemons and daemon princes, as well as beasts and their equivalents.

Agreed again. If these rumors prove true the new Daemons could simulate either an Orc or a Bugs army very closely. It is too early be gloom and doom. I'm merely commenting on a concern. For my own part, I'm not too proud to admit I will steal the Lord of Change and some unimportant throwaway cheap unit and perhaps (depending on points) a Fast Attack DP to add to what is mostly just Chaos Space Marines. The KOS will add more monstrous creature power but more importantly it will add Divination to my shooters, providing me with Overwatch at full Ballistic Skill. It may be premature but I don't see much use in another version of Orcs or Bugs, but I sure as hell see the use in simply expanding my Flying Monstrous creature numbers in CSM and gaining the one Psychic power which will make my Sonic weapons (among other things) broken as hell.

[Learn2Eel]

The Greater Daemons are pretty rad now. The Keeper of Secrets in particular is amazingly cheap. Sure, only a 5+ invulnerable save hurts, but T6 and 5 wounds plus the whole Fleet and +3" to Run moves should keep it going.
One brutal combination that has come out regarding the Lord of Change is that, for 265 points, you can have a Mastery Level 3 (one Tzeentch, two Divination) psyker that has a S:+2 AP4 Concussive weapon that causes explosions upon enemy deaths at S5 and, by being a monstrous creature, treats its attacks as AP2. The Lord of Change is now very good in combat too, what with WS6, I6, A6 and the like. Worse saves, but eh, harder hitting! Better shooting attacks too I must say....though I can see the big bird being used as a very nasty Divination spamming monster. Imagine that build if it gets the Precognition power, meaning it re-rolls to hit, to wound, and failed saving throws, or the +4 invulnerable save power?

Just a note Caitsidhe, the Keeper of Secrets isn't the one that gets Divination - apparently only Tzeentch Daemons get that. Slaanesh Daemons get Telepathy instead apparently.
Oh right I think you did mean the Lord of Change, my bad haha.

[Mr Mystery]

KOS and some unimportant throwaway cheap unit and perhaps (depending on points) a Fast Attack DP

Filth! Filthy Filth!

Down with this sort of thing!

Careful now!

Filthy filth!

[Learn2Eel]

So deamons as an allies is going to be hard. You only get 1 HQ....and I want Divination Heralds AND deamons.

Grumble

Heralds are a two for one HQ choice :cool:

Oh and I do agree Mr Mystery, none of this is really broken. I just think that it seems a step ahead of Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels at this point. Especially when we can take a 100 point Chariot that can reliably blow up a Land Raider or wipe out a Tactical Squad easily in one turn that is still more durable than a Land Speeder Vengeance....

You guys may not know it from the CSM book, but Phil Kelly loves Tzeentch :p

[Caitsidhe]

Filth! Filthy Filth!

Down with this sort of thing!

Careful now!

Filthy filth!

Not at all. It is completely fluffy. It is, in fact, one of the exact reasons Chaos Space Marines call on Daemons as allies, i.e. to buff up their armies with useful units. I see the little thowaway unit as the entourage of the Greater Daemon or DP, i.e. the ones that shovel the bird poop or pick parasites off them.

[Mr Mystery]

To be fair, WD saying it can reliably do something isn't exactly it being able to reliably do something :p

Just need to remove the salesese!

[Caitsidhe]

To be fair, WD saying it can reliably do something isn't exactly it being able to reliably do something :p

Just need to remove the salesese!

What he says above... x100. What they "say" and what we find on the table are rarely the same. We all know those "battle reports" in White Dwarf are completely fabricated. They didn't even play the damn game. They just move the models around and take pretty pictures and make up whatever results sound good.

[Learn2Eel]

Fair enough. Still, it was quoted as wiping out a Tactical Squad in a practice game - something tells me they weren't lying about that. Reliably destroying a Land Raider is the one I doubt.

[eldargal]

People on Warseer seem to be having hysterics at the apparent lack of assault grenades.

[DrLove42]

People on Warseer need to get out.

Thats what the Skull Cannon is for.

[Learn2Eel]

Yup. I don't think they realize that the sheer amount of models in a unit you can get for such little cost, paired with the abilities and smart use of other units considerably mitigates this, but whatever. It's not like we ever had assault grenades to begin with (aside from Slaanesh Daemons).

[Caitsidhe]

People on Warseer seem to be having hysterics at the apparent lack of assault grenades.

I'm not sure why this should surprise them. Games Workshop has an answer for those who want to have viable assault armies. You make your squads HUGE so that enough survive to make their attacks through the Overwatch and going last. :) Giving them assault grenades would mean you could get by with less models. *Do you see where that doesn't work for GW? :D

[eldargal]

Do we know for certain Slaanesh daemons have lost them?

[Learn2Eel]

They don't have them listed according to the source of the leaks, so I assume so, yes.

[Mr Mystery]

Not at all. It is completely fluffy. It is, in fact, one of the exact reasons Chaos Space Marines call on Daemons as allies, i.e. to buff up their armies with useful units. I see the little thowaway unit as the entourage of the Greater Daemon or DP, i.e. the ones that shovel the bird poop or pick parasites off them.

I was aiming at the potential for a cheap innuendo :p

[Mr Mystery]

Fair enough. Still, it was quoted as wiping out a Tactical Squad in a practice game - something tells me they weren't lying about that. Reliably destroying a Land Raider is the one I doubt.

Poor positioning of the squad can do that. S9 can 'reliably' knack a Landraider.... Range is the key!

[Learn2Eel]

True. I think though the insinuation was that it has an AP3 Torrent flamer like the Heldrake.
We'll know soon enough though; someone else has the forum and is taking questions now. Will update with new info as I find it - and yes, all the previous rumours are spot on.
Oh, our characters - even Greater Daemons - have Daemonic Instability too. Not that it will affect them all that commonly mind you....

Err yep the Burning Chariot is pretty nasty. Two ranged weapons (no idea on if it can use both) - a S5 AP3 Torrent flamer, and an 18" D3 S9 AP2 shots, resolved I believe at BS4. So it should on average wipe out two thirds of a 10-strong Space Marine unit, and do pretty decent damage to most vehicles. For 100 points? Not bad at all, and certainly a lot better than the LSV.

[eldargal]

I have to admit I'm a little sad that some of the god specific gifts are gone. Soporific Musk (aka Chanel No 5) always sounded so nice.

[DrLove42]

That kinda settles it. First kit will be one of those chariots. Herlad on foot, flaming chariot for its rules.

Does the chariot have demonic possession/demon rule? Seems kinda obvious but that 5+ invuln and ignoring shaken and stunned will be key.

[eldargal]

It's a bit of a shame that I5 daemonettes will be striking at I1 if they charge through diffictult/dangerous terrain.

[Souba]

kinda important note for gifts: you roll all gifts for everyone that bought them. After you made all rolls and got the results you can select any gifts on your unit and swap them for the magical weapons.

[DrLove42]

Something that just occured to me. You know whats missing? Fliers.

Sure there are flying MC's but everyone claims 6th is the edition if aircraft, but no demonic thingys yet

[eldargal]

Something that just occured to me. You know whats missing? Fliers.

Sure there are flying MC's but everyone claims 6th is the edition if aircraft, but no demonic thingys yet
'cos contrary to popular opinion GW doesn't operate on a cookie cutter approach of giving every book whatever the internet decides is the in thing.;)

It would be nice if I could give my KoS wings though...

[Defenestratus]

It's a bit of a shame that I5 daemonettes will be striking at I1 if they charge through diffictult/dangerous terrain.

Oh boo hoo.

You mean that they have to deal with terrain like everyone else who isn't in power armor?

[eldargal]

Right, because I'm such a power armour fan?:rolleyes: Also I think you mean 'everyone else without assault grenades', not quite the same thing. Daemonettes used to have them, now they don't, which is a bit of a shame. That's all. It's hardly going to be a big issue, they have dropped five points in value so any lose in the initial thumping won't be quite so valuable.

[HERO]

Where rules for Tz Chariot weapons?!

[Mr Mystery]

Right, because I'm such a power armour fan?:rolleyes: Also I think you mean 'everyone else without assault grenades', not quite the same thing. Daemonettes used to have them, now they don't, which is a bit of a shame. That's all. It's hardly going to be a big issue, they have dropped five points in value so any lose in the initial thumping won't be quite so valuable.

I'll pop the Tesla on charge... Snap fire and statistically drop 2 for every hit? Don't fancy their chances much :p

[Caitsidhe]

I was aiming at the potential for a cheap innuendo :p

Doh. I get it now. Sorry it was too early in the morning for me.

[Caitsidhe]

So... using the allies all I need is:

1 HQ: Lord of Change
1 Troop: *Have to see what is the least point expensive and I can take the smallest.

and then I can take

1 Heavy: New Soul Grinder w/Mark of Nurgle and AA
1 Fast Attack: Some kind of DP which has shifted slots?

This sounds quite doable and functional with my normal CSM lists.

[HERO]

I think everyone here is forgetting about KoS and Telepathy.. Psychic Shriek, the Primaris for the KoS is not only fluffy, but god damn amazing, especially with -Ld stuff. Not to mention Puppet Master, Invis and Halluncination. I can see the temptation to upgrading it to Lv.3 every time.

And the Masque:

Masque
75 pts
ws 7 bs 6 s 4 t 3 w 2 i 7 a ld 8
may take up to hit and run. unnatural reflexes (may reroll failed invul saves)
eternal dance: at the beginning of the shooting phase you decide for wich dance she makes against a single non vehicle unit within 12"

dance of binding: the enemy has -5 WS (minimum 1) can only move d3" only d3" run and only d3" assault. also the unit can only fall back d3"

dance of death: the unit suffers as many strength 1 hits as models are in the unit. these hits have AP 2 and igore cover.

dance of dreaming: the target has -5 bs and cannot overwatch. until the next turn of the mask.

I hope she can join units, but if she can't, she's not bad either. 12" is easily DS material and when she comes in, one unit just gets wrecked. Ready to charge in with 20 Daemonettes w/ Herald and you're afraid of 20 Necorn Warriors Overwatching? Flash in with Masque and Dance of Dreaming. Not to mention Dance of Binding is just asshats stupid, pretty much giving you auto-fear in close-combat.

And what if she can finally join units?

Edit:

And on the Burning Chariot thing, Fast Skimmer, 5+ Jinking Chariot sounds good for 100 points. If only we had solid rules for the weapon profile.

[korgüll]

has anyone noticed that cruddace is the co-author of the 40k-book?

[Lord Krungharr]

Where are Beasts of Nurgle? Aren't they in this new Codex? I was looking forward to them....

I am very sad about Fateweaver losing his Oracle of Eternity. My Scabiethrax will sorely miss that in my next Apoc. game. If Fiends can be taken in bigger squad sizes than 6 models, they might be worth taking. The GUO actually seems to have been boosted pretty nicely, Ku'Gath also might be seen in more of my games. Not sure if I'll go and buy more Bloodletters or Daemonettes though, but looks like my Plaguebearers will get minced much more easily now. The point reduction will not balance out the loss of Toughness and FNP.

[Tepogue]

Can anyone explain exactly what has been done to flamers?

Also, I don't have the new WD, but is it normal set up for deamons now? If so, I can see Screamers with turbo boosting still being useful and may need to expand into 3 full sqauds of them.

[HERO]

Can anyone explain exactly what has been done to flamers?

Also, I don't have the new WD, but is it normal set up for deamons now? If so, I can see Screamers with turbo boosting still being useful and may need to expand into 3 full sqauds of them.

Flamers
same stats and points as the latest WD update

However, their weapon profile has changed entirely.
Now only S4 AP4 flaming templates, but gain Warpfire (unit takes a T test or take D3 wounds with no armor or cover)

However, should they pass, they gain +1 FNP for the entire game. Meaning, a unit without gets 6+ FNP, a unit that already has it has it improved by +1.

[mathhammer]

has anyone noticed that cruddace is the co-author of the 40k-book?

no no please to all the dark gods no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mathhammer]

Flamers
same stats and points as the latest WD update

However, their weapon profile has changed entirely.
Now only S4 AP4 flaming templates, but gain Warpfire (unit takes a T test or take D3 wounds with no armor or cover)

However, should they pass, they gain +1 FNP for the entire game. Meaning, a unit without gets 6+ FNP, a unit that already has it has it improved by +1.

Well they have/had 2 weapons and the AP2 flamer was really a vehicle killer, is it possible this template replaces their normal weapon and they still have the anti vehicle template?

[Caitsidhe]

Well they have/had 2 weapons and the AP2 flamer was really a vehicle killer, is it possible this template replaces their normal weapon and they still have the anti vehicle template?

Really? :) I never saw the flamer template used to do anything but kill troops. :) I'll all for getting flamed now. Please come hit my Plague Marines and get them back to 4+ FNP. It is a pity I can't shoot at my own troops. I'd take a unit just to supercharge my Plague Marines.

[Wildeybeast]

Can anyone explain exactly what has been done to flamers?

Also, I don't have the new WD, but is it normal set up for deamons now? If so, I can see Screamers with turbo boosting still being useful and may need to expand into 3 full sqauds of them.

By the look of WD, they all have Deepstrike, but don't have to and can set up normally.

[HERO]

Well they have/had 2 weapons and the AP2 flamer was really a vehicle killer, is it possible this template replaces their normal weapon and they still have the anti vehicle template?

I don't think so.

[Tepogue]

Really? :) I never saw the flamer template used to do anything but kill troops. :) I'll all for getting flamed now. Please come hit my Plague Marines and get them back to 4+ FNP. It is a pity I can't shoot at my own troops. I'd take a unit just to supercharge my Plague Marines.

The old rules were inflict a glancing hit on a 4+. A 5 strong unit could usually get 4 templates off and reliabily knock off 2 hull points under 6th rules. and thats just on the deepstrike. ONce you get to move them then they can all hit vehicles. My 9 strong unit with only average rolls can destroy anything including a land raider just by knocking off the hull points.

So looking at the posted info. Being dropped to S4 AP4 templates really only translates into my opponents getting armor saves. And really only marines getting those. Most Necron, Ork, Guard, eldar and bug armies have a majority of 4+ armor saves or worse. Those will still be slaughtered by multiple flame templates. Space Marines and vehicles can survive better now.

As long as the Flamers are still jump infantry I still see them as useful and unless I've missed it, there is no other Tzeentch option in the Elites slot anyways.

Anyway moving onto Nurgle and Epidemus. Does the codex specify if a unit gets his tally abilities if only 1 model is within his 6 inch bubble or is it on a model by model basis? I've been working on some Nurgle cultists and if I could just have a congo line of them with only 1 inside his 6 inch bubble and the whole unit being affected by the tally to make an interesting army.

[Caitsidhe]

The old rules were inflict a glancing hit on a 4+. A 5 strong unit could usually get 4 templates off and reliabily knock off 2 hull points under 6th rules. and thats just on the deepstrike. ONce you get to move them then they can all hit vehicles. My 9 strong unit with only average rolls can destroy anything including a land raider just by knocking off the hull points.

Again, I never saw them used for anything but killing troops. Daemons had plenty of BETTER ways to kill vehicles. It is always better to use the flamer template that ignores (well ignored) all Armour on troops. But sure... I suppose someone COULD use them on vehicles, but why?


So looking at the posted info. Being dropped to S4 AP4 templates really only translates into my opponents getting armor saves. And really only marines getting those. Most Necron, Ork, Guard, eldar and bug armies have a majority of 4+ armor saves or worse. Those will still be slaughtered by multiple flame templates. Space Marines and vehicles can survive better now.

I.E. the majority of your opponents. :D

[KrewL RaiN]

I am pretty happy to see that Slannesh has had a huge face lift. I have been wanting to add some Slannesh to my force for a long time. Think another thing that's held me off Slannesh is I have a heck of a time trying to figure out how to do these conversions without busting my wallet... I want more boobs on my Daemonettes too and this is coming from a female lol. I want them to look more like the sexy metal ones :< I'll have to update my Tzeentch/Khorne first though, and to the looks of things, it wont be a huge overhaul.

[HERO]

http://s22.postimage.org/6utd1q1gx/CCD2013_profiles.jpg

[HERO]

Originally Posted by Vedar
I tried to translate one of the German entries on the page and for Erhabene Kurtisane it translated to Sublime Uperclass Prostitute....

[spaceman91]

Originally Posted by Vedar
I tried to translate one of the German entries on the page and for Erhabene Kurtisane it translated to Sublime Uperclass Prostitute....

please tell me thats true.

[HERO]

Well, google translate gives you:
exalted courtesan

But it could very well be different depending on what translation engine he used :)

[White Tiger88]

Originally Posted by Vedar
I tried to translate one of the German entries on the page and for Erhabene Kurtisane it translated to Sublime Uperclass Prostitute....

I love Slaanesh even more now.

[Slayer le Boucher]

i still can't freakin believe that Crushers took the nerfbat right into the brain, through the groin, to come back out the arse...

45pts for a T3 3W Armor6 model..., am i the only to find this really wrong?...

And please don't talk me about how fast they are, they would be mildly interessting if they where 20pts and a max unit of 12, not 45pts and 9 models max...

I really hope that this whole 6+ save for Deamons of Khorne is only a typo or an oversight from when they pasted their rules from the fantasy book, with their freakin Scaly skin save and that will be faqed...

**** you Kelly, go back to your beloved eldar *****s...

[HERO]

If you guys saw my last brainstorm (http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/02/demonic-brainstorm.html), you'll know that before I saw any rules/points, I already had an idea of what I want.

Here is what I wrote previously:
The army will be led by a Keeper of Secrets.
The army will also have a Lord of Change if I like the rules, or just two smaller heralds.
The army will have several units of Daemonettes - I was thinking maybe 12 in each squad; 6x2.
The army will also have 12 Seekers. Love the models, the style, looks good man.
The army will have 9 Flamers of Tzeentch. Love the models, the rules look good too.
The army will have 6 Fiends of Slaanesh. The models are great, the rules are great, they definitely scream Slaanesh like crazy.
The army will have 3 Burning Chariots of Tzeentch. Why? Because I am in LOVE with the models. Plus I hear they're the best anti-tank in the army.
Now that the rules are here, let's revisit the army with the new rules.

The army will definitely have a Keeper of Secrets still, even though the Lord of Change seems like an extremely potent choice. Let's go over the two and compare them:


Keeper of Secrets
170 points
Monstrous Creature, Daemon of Slaanesh (Rending, Fleet, +3" Run)
WS9 BS6 S6 T6 W5 I10 A6 Ld. 9
Psyker 1
Preferred Enemy Eldar/Dark Eldar
Can get psyker level 3 for 25 points each
Can roll on Slaanesh lore and Telepathy
Can take 50 points in gifts: Lesser is 10 points, Greater is 20 and Exalted is 30.

Lord of Change
230 points
Flying Monstrous Creature, Daemon of Tzeentch (Re-roll failed rolls of 1)
WS6 BS6 S6 T6 W5 I6 A5 Ld. 9
Psyker 2, can buy Lv.3 for 25 points
Can roll on Tz lore and Divination
Can take up to 50 points in gifts just like the KoS

If I were to make a decision now, I would say the Keeper of Secrets. WS9 is brutal in close combat and I10 means you're going before anyone else. Telepathy is also super good with Slaanesh, in both fluff and in terms of Psychic Shriek (Primaris), Invisibility, Puppet Master, and Halluncination. The only sad part about is that it only has a 5++ as a save, T6 and W5. To kite him out, I'll probably go +100 points for Lv.3, 2x Greater Gifts and 1x Lesser. In fact, I don't think I'll ever go anything different than 2x/1x Greater/Lesser gifts simply because the defensive bonuses from the Greater gifts are just so desirable over anything else. I mean, come on, T7 KoS or Lord of Change with It Will Not Die? 3+ armor save? FNP 4+ or re-roll invul? Even the 18" S8 AP1 Assault 1 Lance with a BS6 KoS/LoC is great. Lastly, the close combat attacks having Armorbane and Lifebane is just silly. Hands down, the greater gifts are the best.

Just because I chose a 270 point Keeper of Secrets, the Lord of Change is a great buy too. If he takes a 10 point Lesser gift and go with the weapon, he automatically gets a +2S staff that has Concussive, instantly making him S8 who attacks at I6, has WS6 and 5 MC attacks. Some say this is even better than a BT! What really makes him stand out is that he's flying and automatically gives him the needed resilience over a Keeper. In short, I would make a Lv.3, pick up the Primaris on Tz and 2 more powers from Divination. Defensive Greater gifts is a must, and so is that Lesser Gift staff that makes people explode. As of now, he comes out to be 305 points.

As for Heralds, I'm looking at a couple right now.

Actually, it's exactly a couple since I chose to align myself to Slaanesh and Tzeentch. Here's how they'll be kited out:

Herald of Tzeentch
Lv.3 Divination, Disc
Comes out to 120 points, or 145 for a Chariot

Gains T4, Jetbike, is a Lv.3 Psyker that's fast and can keep up with a faster army. Buffs all over the place, Prescience, hoping for Misfortune, or gives a beloved 4++ that's missing army-wide (save Fateweaver). It just seems to be the best use of points for someone like that. Honestly, he's a BA Libby on crack, that spreads LoS and allocation goodness to Flamers, which I also plan on taking. If he rides in the Chariot, great, a few more points gives him AV10 on all sides, 3 hull points, and an all important Faster, Skimmer option that allows for faster flying, protection, and a 5+ Jink save. Divination is amazing, and I can't see this army running without some bird/moon faces.

Herald of Slaanesh
Presence of Seduction
30 points in gifts right now, but this will drop if Presence costs points
Let's just say this is 75 points right now on foot, 90 on a Seeker. If you know anything about me, you'll know that I'm all about fast, fragile, CHEAP, but deadly ICs aka Succubi.

What's amazing about the Presence of Seduction is that your entire unit re-rolls to hit. Have her hang out with a unit of 20 Daeonettes and watch your opponents sweat as no one wants to take 61 WS5 S3 Rending attacks that re-rolls to hit in close combat. Presence states that she must challenge right? That's fine. The reason why that's fine is because she can pick out who she wants to fight. Beefy IC hanging out with a squad that has a Sarge with PF? I'll take the Sarge. With 30 points worth of gifts, she can easily obtain a +1S AP2 Master-Crafted weapon. The Herald already has WS7, I7, S4 and 4 attacks, and with that kind of weapon, I'm fine with when taking challenges. You put the girl on a Seeker and she's only going to get better. That's +1A for this fine lady, gains Cavalry, Outflanking and Acute Senses. Suit her up and take her with a bunch of fast *** Seekers that have 3A each and you're good to go.

Now that that's done, it's important to know that each HQ slot can give you 4 Heralds. That's 8 total if you want, and all of them are quite good. The Nurgle Herald is just fantastic and the Khorne one is no slouch. But like I said before, I'm dedicated to this Slaanesh/Tzeentch army.

Alright, now looking at the core of the army, what do I have?

I'll tell you what: An epic *** ton of Daemonettes.
Let's take 2 units of 20, and give them an Icon. Let's just pretend it's 10 points right now since we don't know. That's 9x20 + 10 or so, so let's pretend they're 200 points.

200 points buys you 20 Daemonettes, which is a ton more bodies for the points you were spending before. They lose grenades, but gain some pretty ridiculous benefits with the Herald. Total with the Herald, it's 275 points for these ladies and I think I'll be taking 2 of these.

TROOP:
20x Daemonettes (Stuff) = 200
20x Daemonettes (Stuff) = 200
6x Daemonettes = 54
6x Daemonettes = 54

Total: 508

I'm honestly thinking about running smaller MSU units of 6x Daemonettes and just having them hold ground. If you think about it, they don't care if they get shot at because they're 1. not going to run, 2. don't care about morale, 3. will soak up shots if they get fired upon aka target saturation, 4. you can always DS them and run 'em to claim objectives. With a +3" to run, they might as well be moving normally while ignoring difficult terrain as soon as they come down.

Lastly (for now), we have the Seekers. They're Cavalry, 12ppm, and come with Outflank and Acute Senses. The biggest draw here is that they're 12 points man, with Outflank. Sure, they can't charge on the turn they come in, but 20 of these on your flank equates to 80 WS5 S3 Rending attacks at I5. For 240 points. TWO-FORTY. This is not even including the Herald which can join them and make them all all re-roll hits. When you have something like that in your opponent's mind, the amount of sick mind games is just out of control. The best part? Cavalry rules, with Slaanesh fleet that gives +6" more, and Rending Hammer of Wrath before you even start swinging.

Let's go with 20 Seekers for now for 240.

OK, so now that that's out of the way, let's look at Flamers. The big surprise here, is that their weapon has now changed to S4 AP4 Warpflame. Warpflame means if anyone takes an unsaved wound from the attack, take a toughness test. If you fail, you take D3 additional wounds with no armor or cover saves. But you pass, the enemy who just passed gains +1 to their FNP. Units without FNP gets a 6+, and units with it gets improved by +1. Kinda eh.. but it's similar to the Warriors of Chaos change to show that Tzeentch is fickle.

Flamers kept their WD stats and points, but they now shoot out S4 AP4 templates instead of auto-winning everything in life. This keeps their role to be anti-infantry, and makes them much more effective vs. T3 and lower. And you know what? I will be keeping in the army regardless because I like their rules. They will be held in reserve and ready to pounce once the field is secure. If my guess is correct, they will be 217 points provided the Champion costs 10 points to buy. Always buy the Champion now, it gives you the ability to play LoS.

So that's 217.

What about Fiends? What's changed with them?
Well, the big ones here is that they're no longer S5, but gain a wound. That makes them 3W models now. WS4 and A3, but the big one here is that they get new special rules. What is that exactly? Well, models in base contact with them have their Initiative reduced by 5. That basically screams, NO, I'm going first. Another thing about them is that they have a 12" aura that decreases enemy psyker leadership by 1. This combos with another piece that I'll reveal in a little bit.

Overall, they went up 5 points and have cool new rules. Still S4 Rending with 3A each, but nowhere near as dominate as they were in the past. How I feel about them is a little iffy, mainly because I6 is fast enough to go before anyone else, and that I'd rather see higher S rending attacks in its place. The fact that they don't have plastic models (yet) puts them on a maybe for me.

What I will buy an *** ton of are the new Chariots of Tzeentch.
This is what we know about them:
AV10 all around, Open-Top, Fast, Skimmer, Chariot
2 kinds of attacks: S5 AP3 Torrent, Warpfire, or D3 S9 AP2 with 18" range at BS4. Both attacks have Warpflame. The Exalted Flamer dude has 3W.
From what I read in the rumors, the Screamers weren't changed at all, so this Chariot also comes stock with 2 Screamers and their armorbane attacks. Now I'm not sure on this so don't quote me yet, but it seems like this is the case.
This guy comes in at 100 points even, with a Blue Horror upgrade that gives -1 Ld for every enemy unit within 6" for 10 points. I think this is almost mandatory to have.

What you have here, is a Dark Eldar Ravager on crack. It's a little fickle because of the D3 S9 shots, but it's flexibility is what's amazing. S5 AP3 Torrent is a great way to light something up; move 12", extend 12" and pull out your flamer template. That's something that can reach out and hurt someone really bad, ignoring cover saves while you're getting a lovely 5+ jink. The -1 Ld is just a great upgrade as it allows you to leadership bomb someone hard enough provided all of them rush forward and turbo-charge. You can relocate to somewhere rapidly, maybe not firing but hanging out with Fiends while he Psychic Shrieks some Psyker in the face. Who knows, it's funny, and possibly effective if the right situation calls for it.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I think I'll drop the Fiends and get some Screamers. Those things are kinda vicious, especially if nothing has changed about them. Now that Tzeentch has access to Divination, you can imagine the craziness.

THREE TZ CHARIOTS NOW = 300

Let's total it up for make-shift army list:

Keeper of Secrets = 270
+100 points worth of ****, Lv.3 Telepathy

Lv.3 Divination Tz Moontrollface on Disc = 120
Herald of Slaanesh on foot, 30 points of gifts = 75
Herald of Slaanesh on foot, 30 points of gifts = 75
Herald of Slaanesh on Seeker, 30 points of gifts = 90

HQ TOTAL: 630, seems legit, or standard in Daemons


TROOP:
20x Daemonettes (Stuff) = 200
20x Daemonettes (Stuff) = 200
6x Daemonettes = 54
6x Daemonettes = 54

TROOP TOTAL: 508, **** Horrors, they blow

FAST ATTACK:
20x Seekers = 240

ELITE:
9x Flamers + Champ = 217

HEAVY:
3x Tz Chariots with Blue Horror upgrades = 330
110 ea


Grand Total:
1925, just below the 2K I was shooting for.

Oh, ****, forgot Fiends or Screamers. A unit of 9x WD Screamers is 225 points. That means I can afford to drop the Herald on Seeker for 90 points to spend on the Masque or something, save 15 points, take Screamers instead, and float 100 points for something else.

OR, I can drop the Flamers maybe, since I already have S5 AP3 Torrent flamers and a bunch of face-raping Daemonettes who's hungry for blood. Hmm... good idea, let's see what that looks like:

1995

HQ:
Lv.3 Keeper of Secrets = 270
2 Greater Gifts, 1 Lesser Gift

Lv.3 Divination Herald of Tz = 120
Disc, hangs out with flying skysharks

Herald of Slaanesh, 30 point of gifts = 75

Herald of Slaanesh, 30 point of gifts = 75

Masque of Slaanesh = 75

TROOP:
20x Daemonettes (Icon) = 205
20x Daemonettes = 180
6x Daemonettes = 54
6x Daemonettes = 54

FAST ATTACK:
9x Screamers = 225
10x Seekers = 120

ELITE:
9x Flamers of Tz (Pyrocaster) = 212

HEAVY:
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110

OK.

What you have here is a work of art. I dropped all upgrade options on one of the Daemonette blobs and brought the Seekers down to 10. Sure, you don't have as much of a presence, but they're still dangerous if you make them out flank. Because I'm not taking so much, I decided to add the Masque. Now, she can be really deadly if used right with her 3 new dances, so make sure you check those out in the rumors and see. The added Screamers give me an anti-vehicle and anti-Terminator unit, cooped with a Divination Herald, it can make for some really silly ****. Especially since they all move at the same speed because they're Jetbikes. Prescience on a unit of Screamers? Good ****ing lord.

I kept my Flamers because I have a soft spot for them and they give me great templates upon templates. This coupled with my Tz Chariots that gives me more templates upon templates and I'm looking at an army that's great in CC, great in speed, a lot of board presence, a lot of anti-everything, and absolutely NO ANTI-AIR. Why? Because I hate the Soul Grinder and I don't give a ****.

GG all. HERO out.

[eldargal]

Originally Posted by Vedar
I tried to translate one of the German entries on the page and for Erhabene Kurtisane it translated to Sublime Uperclass Prostitute....

That is the best thing in the history of ever.

[Learn2Eel]

Dear lord....the Changeling is absolute cheese.
He can swap out any or all of his WS, S, T, I and A with an enemy model in base contact. He is a character.
Your opponent has the Swarmlord? Laugh at it as your Changeling becomes WS9, S6, T6, I6, A4 whilst the Swarmlord becomes WS3, S3, T3, I3, A2. You then proceed to instant-kill it.....sure you don't ignore armour saves, but all you need is one failed save....and bam. Lol. Use that against a Wraithlord, who is also a character, tarpitting it with a cheap HQ! :cool:

[White Tiger88]

......Dang, just Dang

[HERO]

Dear lord....the Changeling is absolute cheese.
He can swap out any or all of his WS, S, T, I and A with an enemy model in base contact. He is a character.
Your opponent has the Swarmlord? Laugh at it as your Changeling becomes WS9, S6, T6, I6, A4 whilst the Swarmlord becomes WS3, S3, T3, I3, A2. You then proceed to instant-kill it.....sure you don't ignore armour saves, but all you need is one failed save....and bam. Lol. Use that against a Wraithlord, who is also a character, tarpitting it with a cheap HQ! :cool:

Do you play Fantasy? It's basically Van Horstmann's Speculum.

Just troll for days.

Trolls as hard as this guy (just made):

http://i.imgur.com/C0UKVgA.jpg

[Learn2Eel]

Hahahaha!

Oh god.....those poor, poor Trygons :eek: From memory the Changeling is less than 100 points too.....
Tyranid players are going to love the Changeling....

[Mr Mystery]

Hahahaha!

Oh god.....those poor, poor Trygons :eek: From memory the Changeling is less than 100 points too.....
Tyranid players are going to love the Changeling....

Yeah. Because he might swap stats with Hormogaunts savaging his squad of Horrors :p

Fantasy PROTIP. Fighting Empire? Wizard in a unit trying to look innocent? Van Horstmans is on him. Engage only with chafe!

[sjap98]

So, the Nurglings:
have 1 better WS (yeah!), a BS of 3 (had 0, so what are they shooting now?), 4 wounds (1 better) , 1 better I, Ld 7 (was 10).
Still 5+ inv save...en probably cheaper...but no EW so them S6 weapons going to remove whole bases now, not just the wound, (or wounds in regard to blasts/templates)....
poor nurglings..? (and I love them!...ah well still will be fielding 18 though).

Does anybody know if they have some special rule?

Thanks
Sjap.

[chizal]

So, the Nurglings:
have 1 better WS (yeah!), a BS of 3 (had 0, so what are they shooting now?), 4 wounds (1 better) , 1 better I, Ld 7 (was 10).
Still 5+ inv save...en probably cheaper...but no EW so them S6 weapons going to remove whole bases now, not just the wound, (or wounds in regard to blasts/templates)....
poor nurglings..? (and I love them!...ah well still will be fielding 18 though).

Does anybody know if they have some special rule?

Thanks
Sjap.

think i saw somewhere they now have infiltrate and being daemons of nurgle they will have shrouded

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah. Because he might swap stats with Hormogaunts savaging his squad of Horrors :p

Fantasy PROTIP. Fighting Empire? Wizard in a unit trying to look innocent? Van Horstmans is on him. Engage only with chafe!

If your opponent is afraid of charging nasty units into a Pink Horror/Troops unit, you are doing something right :) Especially given that unit is very cheap, even with the Changeling!
Not all armies have chafe ;)

[Mr Mystery]

I'd say if they're reduced to that sort of overkill, something's gone even wronger! :p

Big things stomp big things! This isn't fantasy you know :p

[sjap98]

think i saw somewhere they now have infiltrate and being daemons of nurgle they will have shrouded

Oh yes, shrouded, obviously I forgot, and Infiltrate would really be awesome!!!
Thanks,
Sjap.

[Lord Krungharr]

Flamers were the about the best anti-vehicle unit Daemons had, as they could nail most vehicles coming in on the Deepstrike by nabbing hull-points. The only other competitors for anti-vehicle were Screamers and a Bloodthirster, both of which would have to wait til 2nd turn at least to assault vehicles.

They slammed Flamers with the nerf bat big time here....furthermore it looks like all the Tzeentch psychic powers, and apparently the Flamers Breath weapon, all have the crappy Warpflame rule.

So we figure the enemy will suffer an unsaved wound from these Warpflame weapons, but now almost all units we'll face will probably pass their Toughness Test 2/3 of the time at T4, unless they're Guard or Eldar in which case it's only 1/2 the time, and all those units will be getting FNP from the Daemons killing some models, and they get it for the REST OF THE GAME!?! That's about the stupidest possible rule anyone could've thought of. Why would anyone even consider taking these weapons at all then? If it's good anti-armor, then that's the only reason I would use them. And Flamers would only be good vs. Nurglings or other T3 Swarms, and even Nid players don't use Rippers anymore.

I heard that Phil Kelly guy loves Tzeentch.....so why did he incorporate such a bogus rule into the Tzeentch lore?

[Caitsidhe]

Flamers were the about the best anti-vehicle unit Daemons had, as they could nail most vehicles coming in on the Deepstrike by nabbing hull-points. The only other competitors for anti-vehicle were Screamers and a Bloodthirster, both of which would have to wait til 2nd turn at least to assault vehicles.

They slammed Flamers with the nerf bat big time here....furthermore it looks like all the Tzeentch psychic powers, and apparently the Flamers Breath weapon, all have the crappy Warpflame rule.

So we figure the enemy will suffer an unsaved wound from these Warpflame weapons, but now almost all units we'll face will probably pass their Toughness Test 2/3 of the time at T4, unless they're Guard or Eldar in which case it's only 1/2 the time, and all those units will be getting FNP from the Daemons killing some models, and they get it for the REST OF THE GAME!?! That's about the stupidest possible rule anyone could've thought of. Why would anyone even consider taking these weapons at all then? If it's good anti-armor, then that's the only reason I would use them. And Flamers would only be good vs. Nurglings or other T3 Swarms, and even Nid players don't use Rippers anymore.

I heard that Phil Kelly guy loves Tzeentch.....so why did he incorporate such a bogus rule into the Tzeentch lore?

Perhaps they have sold all the Flamers they needed? :) This is the standard operating procedure for Games Workshop. One unit is effective and lots of people buy it. They clear out the excess inventory and then proceed to nerf the unit into oblivion so people who relied on it must buy the new flavor. I wouldn't buy anything these guys say, least of which is "I love this... or that." They don't care a whit about the game beyond it being a job. I doubt they have anything to do with it at all when they are not on the clock.

[Defenestratus]

Flamers were the about the best anti-vehicle unit Daemons had, as they could nail most vehicles coming in on the Deepstrike by nabbing hull-points. The only other competitors for anti-vehicle were Screamers and a Bloodthirster, both of which would have to wait til 2nd turn at least to assault vehicles.

They slammed Flamers with the nerf bat big time here....furthermore it looks like all the Tzeentch psychic powers, and apparently the Flamers Breath weapon, all have the crappy Warpflame rule.

I feel *soooooo* sorry for you now that you can't just make vehicles disappear with no possible defense first turn.

It's actually bringing a tear to my eye.

Really.

[DrLove42]

Yeah i don't feel any sympathy that the 3 flamer army that can reliably destroy half an army before you get to react has been nerfed.

But then again....i'm not a power armour player, so they actually got better against my Eldar/DE/Tau. Now they just wound on 3's not 4's and ignore armour.

[Philipp Droste]

I feel *soooooo* sorry for you now that you can't just make vehicles disappear with no possible defense first turn.

It's actually bringing a tear to my eye.

Really.

You maybe mean like every army who HAS access to ranger [tablewidth]" lascannons on good Vehicles / Heavy Support Troops instead of a [i can throw a rock so far!]" d3 version of it on a open topped paper/paper/paper armoured vehicle can reliable do? Dont forget that the Flamer/ Screamer thing absolutley was hard, but it was the only really good list if you werent playing with normal and fluffy player besides The Fatecrusher, which was not possible if you played without ICs which quite some people did.
i would like to see your army if the you had to play without every gun above s8, without melta rules and just a walker and some MCs for Vehicle hunting, and you have to pay minimum 220pts for a MC. Have fun. Google for FUN, its explanation for the game Dwarf Fortress matters here.

[Defenestratus]

You maybe mean like every army who HAS access to ranger [tablewidth]" lascannons on good Vehicles / Heavy Support Troops instead of a [i can throw a rock so far!]" d3 version of it on a open topped paper/paper/paper armoured vehicle can reliable do? Dont forget that the Flamer/ Screamer thing absolutley was hard, but it was the only really good list if you werent playing with normal and fluffy player besides The Fatecrusher, which was not possible if you played without ICs which quite some people did.
i would like to see your army if the you had to play without every gun above s8, without melta rules and just a walker and some MCs for Vehicle hunting, and you have to pay minimum 220pts for a MC. Have fun. Google for FUN, its explanation for the game Dwarf Fortress matters here.


blah blah blah

All I see is someone who used a crutch unit trying to obfuscate the fact that he relied on a broken unit to play toy soldiers.

FYI I did google fun. It came up with the result:

"Fun is what happens when at least 1 of your 3 wave serpents doesn't die in the first round due to flamer/screamer spam"

[Caitsidhe]

I have to say that I'm GLAD Flamers got changed. They were broken as all get out. Would I have fixed them the same way? No, but that is beside the point. I think the weird rule by which targets gain FNP is idiotic. Screamers and Flamers were being used as a crutch. They required little in the way of tactics or skill. I'm sure a NEW unit will take their place (it always does) and you can throw down with that.

[Philipp Droste]

you mean the Wave serpents a daemon player can barely kill with anything else besides charging them, from which it will just fly away? dont use stuff like "blah blah blah", i makes you look retarded :/ yep, the spam was evil, and i cant and wont say somewthing against it, only on a tournamet something like this should be used, but to kill the unit is a dumb way to solve this. make it 0-1 so it cant be spammed.

btw screamers cant kill your serpents 1st rounds s4 4 vs av12 is impossible, and you have to deepstrike precicsly to flame 3 serpents without scattering as far as i remember.

[Demonus]

The old rules were inflict a glancing hit on a 4+. A 5 strong unit could usually get 4 templates off and reliabily knock off 2 hull points under 6th rules. and thats just on the deepstrike. ONce you get to move them then they can all hit vehicles. My 9 strong unit with only average rolls can destroy anything including a land raider just by knocking off the hull points.

So looking at the posted info. Being dropped to S4 AP4 templates really only translates into my opponents getting armor saves. And really only marines getting those. Most Necron, Ork, Guard, eldar and bug armies have a majority of 4+ armor saves or worse. Those will still be slaughtered by multiple flame templates. Space Marines and vehicles can survive better now.

As long as the Flamers are still jump infantry I still see them as useful and unless I've missed it, there is no other Tzeentch option in the Elites slot anyways.

Anyway moving onto Nurgle and Epidemus. Does the codex specify if a unit gets his tally abilities if only 1 model is within his 6 inch bubble or is it on a model by model basis? I've been working on some Nurgle cultists and if I could just have a congo line of them with only 1 inside his 6 inch bubble and the whole unit being affected by the tally to make an interesting army.

I thought I read on Warseer that Epi only worked with Codex Daemons units now. Was that incorrect?

[Mr Mystery]

I have to say that I'm GLAD Flamers got changed. They were broken as all get out. Would I have fixed them the same way? No, but that is beside the point. I think the weird rule by which targets gain FNP is idiotic. Screamers and Flamers were being used as a crutch. They required little in the way of tactics or skill. I'm sure a NEW unit will take their place (it always does) and you can throw down with that.

A trend I've noticed (well, anecdote really) is that the toys are being shared out now between existing and new units.

Flamers were never much of a bugger for me. They'd deep strike in, knack a single unit, then be promptly annihilated next turn. Now much of their filth is on the Chariot. So far as we know, it can't deep strike, and from the battle report seems fairly fragile. Given it's anti-tank is only 18" range (well, plus movement) it can be dealt with fairly quickly.

Overall (and this is general, rather than aimed at Catsidhe) the book is sounding pretty well balanced. As with any army, if it gets entirely it's own way, it will flatten all comers. But then that's the trick isn't it? Getting things your own way. Even against an incompetent player, you still need the favour of the dice to truly carry to day! And rightly so I say!

[HERO]

I have to say that I'm GLAD Flamers got changed. They were broken as all get out. Would I have fixed them the same way? No, but that is beside the point. I think the weird rule by which targets gain FNP is idiotic. Screamers and Flamers were being used as a crutch. They required little in the way of tactics or skill. I'm sure a NEW unit will take their place (it always does) and you can throw down with that.

Except, Screamers were not changed a bit!

And now Tz has Divination :P

Flamers, on the other hand, were simply REDESIGNED. S4 AP4 templates with warpfire makes them quite effective in large numbers, and deadly vs. T3 and under. Before, the 4+ no armor saves is purely anti-marine, and there's already a bunch of that floating around.

Aka, the S5 AP3 Torrent fire that comes from the new Tz Chariot.

[Archon Charybdis]

you mean the Wave serpents a daemon player can barely kill with anything else besides charging them, from which it will just fly away?

Daemons now have more cavalry/beasts than any other codex in the game (not to mention jetbike Screamers), all of which so far as I can see have the S/volume of attacks/Rending to deal with back armor 10 without issue. The tzeentch chariot can put out d3 S9 (8 against a Serpent, but that still glances on 4) AP2 shots. Not to mention flying MCs all of which can smash for an automatic pen. And that's just off the top of my head, I haven't even looked that close at these new rumors. Daemons are not hurting for anti-tank.


Except, Screamers were not changed a bit!

They're not EW anymore, and that's certainly not insignificant on a multiwound model.

[Caitsidhe]

Flamers were never much of a bugger for me. They'd deep strike in, knack a single unit, then be promptly annihilated next turn. Now much of their filth is on the Chariot. So far as we know, it can't deep strike, and from the battle report seems fairly fragile. Given it's anti-tank is only 18" range (well, plus movement) it can be dealt with fairly quickly.

The armies I fought around here all had 2-3 maximum Flamer and Screamer units. Their use against vehicles is more or less a red herring as far as I'm concerned. Their ability to ignore all armor, cover, and damage easily would gut troops.


Overall (and this is general, rather than aimed at Catsidhe) the book is sounding pretty well balanced. As with any army, if it gets entirely it's own way, it will flatten all comers. But then that's the trick isn't it? Getting things your own way. Even against an incompetent player, you still need the favour of the dice to truly carry to day! And rightly so I say!

I have no idea how balanced it is yet. I'm sure it will have its broken units and its garbage units. Hopefully they will balance out. Chances are they will just have exchanged one crutch for another one. I can already see tremendous potential for my CSM by cherry picking what I want out of Daemons. I'm dubious about how fun (or competitive) Daemons will be as a stand alone army, but they certainly help fill some holes that Kelly left in my primary one. *I suspect that is kind of the point. I firmly believe (particularly as I see the trend continue to deny flyers and certain things to certain armies) that Games Workshop is trying to manhandle people into playing allies and thus own two armies.

[Caitsidhe]

Except, Screamers were not changed a bit!

I beg to differ. For my purposes they changed a great deal. I can now turn them off with high power weapons (which I carry).


Flamers, on the other hand, were simply REDESIGNED. S4 AP4 templates with warpfire makes them quite effective in large numbers, and deadly vs. T3 and under. Before, the 4+ no armor saves is purely anti-marine, and there's already a bunch of that floating around.

Yes? I agree with the redesign except for the silly part that gives opponent's FNP (or improves it).

[HERO]

They're not EW anymore, and that's certainly not insignificant on a multiwound model.

No, it's not. They're 2W models that are very affordable for what they do. No EW doesn't change a damn fact on them because they're T4 and require missiles to be shot in them for them to care. That can also be known as wasted missiles after BS, rolls, wounds, turbo-boosts, and re-roll 1s, while your heavier stuff goes across the field.

Care factor: 0

Please, shoot at my Screamers all day. All night, all the time. I've got greater demons, chariots, and a whole bunch of other goodies DYING to reach combat.

[Caitsidhe]

No, it's not. They're 2W models that are very affordable for what they do. No EW doesn't change a damn fact on them because they're T4 and require missiles to be shot in them for them to care. That can also be known as wasted missiles after BS, rolls, wounds, turbo-boosts, and re-roll 1s, while your heavier stuff goes across the field.

Care factor: 0

I didn't find Screamers much of a problem before. I happen to agree completely (which is rare) with the redesign, i.e. loss of Eternal Warrior on them. They are a mean, tough unit. Good for them. They aren't broken. I was killing them before. I'll be killing them now even easier. I think you are forgetting that some of us carry a lot of Melta. There are also STR-8 templates and weapons like the Blastmaster which will remove a whole model and get to ignore the cover from Turbo Boost (and everything else). We don't even need to go into detail about the easy access close combat weapons that end up STR-8+.

Screamers are fine.

[Archon Charybdis]

That can also be known as wasted missiles after BS, rolls, wounds, turbo-boosts, and re-roll 1s, while your heavier stuff goes across the field.

No, it's not worth dumping missile after missile into them, totally worth dumping a single battle cannon or demolisher though.

[Caitsidhe]

No, it's not worth dumping missile after missile into them, totally worth dumping a single battle cannon or demolisher though.

Yep. :)

[HERO]

No, it's not worth dumping missile after missile into them, totally worth dumping a single battle cannon or demolisher though.


I think you are forgetting that some of us carry a lot of Melta.

You must be mistaking me from someone who just started playing the game.

Honestly, if you can line up battlecannon/demolisher shots and covering most/all my Screamers, or I'm setup easily to get all my **** meta'd, then yes, I deserve to have those models removed.

Bad play does increase/decrease the effectiveness of certain models. Regardless, I think Screamers are fine, the loss of EW is not a huge deal, and that they're a good balanced unit.

[Caitsidhe]

You must be mistaking me from someone who just started playing the game.

I don't recall saying or inferring anything of the sort. Your need to clarify something that none of us asked only makes you sound suspect. More to the point, you "must be mistaking me" for someone who cares. :)


Honestly, if you can line up battlecannon/demolisher shots and covering most/all my Screamers, or I'm setup easily to get all my **** meta'd, then yes, I deserve to have those models removed.

They do make decaffeinated coffee you know.


Bad play does increase/decrease the effectiveness of certain models. Regardless, I think Screamers are fine, the loss of EW is not a huge deal, and that they're a good balanced unit.

So if we agree (and have been) that Screamers are just fine, what exactly are you on about? :D

[HERO]

You are stating the obvious; saying meltas, high-powered weapons and explaining yourself why S8+ close combat weapons will threaten multi-wound models.

I'm simply telling you in that in the case of Screamers, this, does, not, matter. In the hands of a player who's not half a retard, nothing will change.

If you want to talk about multi-wound models suffering from ID, talk about Fiends and Bloodcrushers.

[Caitsidhe]

You are stating the obvious; saying meltas, high-powered weapons and explaining yourself why S8+ close combat weapons will threaten multi-wound models.

I'm simply telling you in that in the case of Screamers, this, does, not, matter. In the hands of a player who's not half a retard, nothing will change.

If you say so. Of course, there is only so much you can do to avoid long range template weapons is there not? If you have some secret move the rest of us don't which allows you to magically avoid template weapons, you should share. :) I've fought more than my fair share of very competent, competitive players who weren't able to avoid getting shot at. That sounds like a handy skill. You should share.

[Mr Mystery]

From what I'm scrapin together, it seems Daemons have the major weakness of enemies in cover. Lack of grenades is a good thing, as stops the army being a 'charge as fast you can lol' trick pony. If your opponent has the opportunity to thoroughly dig in, your assaults, whilst remaining ultimately deadly, are blunted, in that your opponent can have a swing before you kick their teeth down their throat.

And being extremely vulnerable to anti-infantry firepower is something to seriously consider for the Daemon player. Even the largest unit, left with it's pants down in the open is going to take a righteous kicking.

Offsetting this are seemingly low point infantry, which once into combat redress the balance quickly.

Tricks for both sides to master makes for a great game in my book.

[HERO]

If you say so. Of course, there is only so much you can do to avoid long range template weapons is there not? If you have some secret move the rest of us don't which allows you to magically avoid template weapons, you should share. :) I've fought more than my fair share of very competent, competitive players who weren't able to avoid getting shot at. That sounds like a handy skill. You should share.

They're Jetbikes, and have JB movement, 12" move and 24" TB. If they can't figure out how to negotiate terrain, move around the board, dictate the movement phase, and choose when to strike and when to run away while still maintaining a threatening presence, then I don't know what to tell you.

I play Dark Eldar.. dealing damage while avoiding retaliatory action is a necessity.

Frankly, why hasn't anyone here who's complaining about 2W JB Screamers complaining about W3 Fiends or T4 Bloodcrushers? ????????

[HERO]

From what I'm scrapin together, it seems Daemons have the major weakness of enemies in cover. Lack of grenades is a good thing, as stops the army being a 'charge as fast you can lol' trick pony. If your opponent has the opportunity to thoroughly dig in, your assaults, whilst remaining ultimately deadly, are blunted, in that your opponent can have a swing before you kick their teeth down their throat.

And being extremely vulnerable to anti-infantry firepower is something to seriously consider for the Daemon player. Even the largest unit, left with it's pants down in the open is going to take a righteous kicking.

Offsetting this are seemingly low point infantry, which once into combat redress the balance quickly.

Tricks for both sides to master makes for a great game in my book.

There are an epic *** ton of templates in this book, I think you'll be fine dealing with units in cover.

The Skull Cannon thing that Khorne brings is only 125 points and decently armored (12/12/10) with 3 HP. That sounds a mighty fine deal to give your units pseudo-grenades :)

[Slayer le Boucher]

I think that to, replace the useless Crushers, i will be modeling Flying bikes made out of flesh, metal and bones, with Bloodletters on them and use the Drones rules, and make Bloodletters with wings for the screamers...

At least the Flesh hounds became better...

[Mr Mystery]

There are an epic *** ton of templates in this book, I think you'll be fine dealing with units in cover.

The Skull Cannon thing that Khorne brings is only 125 points and decently armored (12/12/10) with 3 HP. That sounds a mighty fine deal to give your units pseudo-grenades :)

Depends on the FoC and what's competing against it. I'm guessing Soul Grinders at least, your seemingly most reliable anti-air. This in itself limits the deployment of the saucy skull cannon I'd wager.

Shaping up very nicely so far!

[HERO]

And today's funny quote..


pegboardFebruary 28, 2013 at 10:41 AM
This is sounding as if daemons are back to the old needing monsters to smash up tanks and 'letters to kill troops.

That's sad, really. No new tactics, no bonkers 'portals', just the same troops doing the same things and some bonkers points values.

A beast of nurgle is (from the new rules) pointless. Why some units have a 6+ save but probably costing the same points (fleshhounds, for example) is crackers. I'm not a tournament player by any means but a 6+ save is pointless.

My dog's farts have a higher AP!

[HERO]

Some info on Icons and the Blue Scrubes:


Icons and Banners act like homing beacons for deep striking units.

If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from the same deity, they don't scatter within 6" of the icon.
If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from different deities, the deep striking unit (when aiming for a spot within 6" of the icon) only scatters 1D6" instead of 2D6"
If one of the units (icon or deep striking) hasn't got the Daemon special rule, the icon has no effect whatsoever.

Standard icon costs 10 points, +10 points for a god specific icon.

There are several different icons for the different gods:

Khorne: Unit may attack 6+D6" (once per game)
Tzeentch: Inflicts 2D6 S4 AP- hits to a unit you shoot at (must declare before; once per game)
Nurgle: All attacks count as Poison (2+) (must declare before close combat; once per game)
Slaanesh: In close combat: takes D3 WS from enemy units in combat; Slaanesh units are immune (once per game)

Instruments have two purposes:

1) If a unit with an instruments comes into game via reserve, you can immediately get another daemon unit out of reserve (they don't have to roll)
2) If you roll on the warpstorm table and get e.g. the result where Khorne attacks Slaanesh units, you may re-roll ONE DIE that could be harmful for your Slaanesh models PER instrument of Khorne in your army and on the table (and of course in any other god combination, too).

Instruments of Chaos cost 10 points.


You place a magic marker next to them each time a psyker on the board successfully casts a spell. At the beginning of you turn you throw a D6 for each marker. For each 6 a single friendly psyker within 12" of the Blue Scribes gains a warp point. Then the magic markers are removed.

Also, at the beginning of your turn you choose one of the magic disciplines from the rulebook and throw a D6. The result cannot be swapped for the primaris power. The spell is then cast without a psychic test and it doesn't need warp energy (don't know the correct English terms).

Costs 9x9 = 81 points


War Lord Table:
1)Warlord gains Instant Death USR
2)Warlord and his unit gain Hatred (Everything) USR
3)As long as the War Lord is alive, your opponent test for Fear at -1 LD
4) As Long as the War Lord is alive, units within 12” of the War Lord may re-roll Daemonic Instability
5) As long as the War Lord is alive, you may re-roll results on the Warp Storm Table
6)Units with the Daemon USR may Deep Strike within 6” of the War Lord without scatter.


lesser/greater/exhaulted locus is 10/20/30

Lastly, the Chariot does not have Screamer attacks:


no, no screamer attacks. the flamer however can attack.

[KrewL RaiN]

I feel the Flammer nerf was fair too (not that stupid free FNP thing though). It feels like that WD supplement was a beta test now. I will still experiment with my little group of Flammers. I only ran a unit of 5 with a disc Harald (who will run with Screamers now), so its not a huge loss, unlike those who spammed the crap out of them. I am more bummed on the T nerf on Bloodcrushers... I would have to get another box if I want to run them now, bump my squad up to 8. I am not writing the Bloodcrushers off yet either. I will be getting a skull cannon for sure for that grenade effect.

[Mr Mystery]

Beasts are far from pointless.

They're guard dogs for other units. Oddly, they go well with Horrors. Horrors pelt the enemy with shooting. If the enemy charge, Beasts counter charge, adding more CC muscle.

[Lungpickle]

Screamers lost eternal warrior, and are 1 wound models. At least that's the stat line at the gw web page.

[HERO]

Screamers lost eternal warrior, and are 1 wound models. At least that's the stat line at the gw web page.

The GW webpage haven't been updated in ages. Disregard that.

It's confirmed they retain WD stats.

[Learn2Eel]

Aww, sounds like the Changeling doesn't swap the stats of the opponent with his own - he just takes theirs, they don't get his crappy ones. At least, that it what I found over in a QnA session here (http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/chaos-daemon-qna-its-time-for-some.html).
Still, I noticed that Heralds aren't a 2 for 1 choice anymore. No, they are a four for one HQ choice. The only limitation is that you can only use one slot for them. Basically, they want you to take lots of Heralds for lots of units, and have a Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince as your Warlord. Spiffy.

Oh, and the Soul Grinder really does put the Defiler to shame - by a staggering amount too. A 170 point Soul Grinder comes with AV 13/13/11, WS3, BS3, S6 (10 for power fist), I3, A4, HP4, re-rolls failed invulnerable saves of 1 (Daemon of Tzeentch), causes Fear, has a 5+ invulnerable save, can Deep Strike, has a 3 shot autocannon and a 3 shot skyfire autocannon (pick one before shooting) and a 36" battle cannon. What does the Defiler get over it? A full-on battle cannon, Fleet, It Will Not Die, Daemonforge and a heavy flamer. If the two codices were designed within a short space of each other, I don't understand how the Soul Grinder completely outclasses the Defiler....as someone mentioned earlier, it might be because the Soul Grinder is the only in-codex vehicle for Daemons? I'm betting a lot of lovers for the Defiler will be making the switch and allying in Soul Grinders now.
Did I forget to mention that a 180 point Soul Grinder runs an additional 3", has Fleet and Rending? Or another one of the same cost would have Shrouded?

[HERO]

The Nurgle one is completely ridiculous, keep him in Ruins for a 2++ cover on a AV13/13/11.

[Learn2Eel]

Vehicles - including walkers - don't get the benefit of ruins or area terrain though. But, there is a way around this, and one that opponents may despise you for.
Vehicles get a 5+ cover save if 25% of their facing targeted by the enemy unit is obscured, right? Now, a Soul Grinder has two sets of big legs - ones that stretch out from the middle of the body. Place your Soul Grinder in a ruin/behind terrain, and position it so that enemies will not be able to see one set of legs, but the middle of the body - and thus its main gun - can still shoot without granting cover saves to enemies. And, to maximise the effect, try to get it so that your Harvester arm is also on the arm sticking out in the open. Unluckily for your opponent, if you do this right, your Soul Grinder will have a massive field of view, an insane 3+ cover save due to partial obscuration and Shrouded, it won't be granting your opponent obscuration cover saves in return, and its firepower is fantastic as well. All for a chunk less than 200 points. Ridiculous.

All on an AV13/13/11 platform that has five S10 AP2 attacks on the charge too :rolleyes: Something tells me Soul Grinders are about to run out of stock.....

[Learn2Eel]

I'd say if they're reduced to that sort of overkill, something's gone even wronger! :p

Big things stomp big things! This isn't fantasy you know :p

As a Tyranid player, trust me, our monsters aren't solely there to kill Terminators/tanks/walkers! Trygons and kitted out Tervigons can and will wipe out entire squads by themselves in record time whilst suffering little damage in return.

[Caitsidhe]

Vehicles - including walkers - don't get the benefit of ruins or area terrain though. But, there is a way around this, and one that opponents may despise you for.
Vehicles get a 5+ cover save if 25% of their facing targeted by the enemy unit is obscured, right? Now, a Soul Grinder has two sets of big legs - ones that stretch out from the middle of the body. Place your Soul Grinder in a ruin/behind terrain, and position it so that enemies will not be able to see one set of legs, but the middle of the body - and thus its main gun - can still shoot without granting cover saves to enemies. And, to maximise the effect, try to get it so that your Harvester arm is also on the arm sticking out in the open. Unluckily for your opponent, if you do this right, your Soul Grinder will have a massive field of view, an insane 3+ cover save due to partial obscuration and Shrouded, it won't be granting your opponent obscuration cover saves in return, and its firepower is fantastic as well. All for a chunk less than 200 points. Ridiculous.

All on an AV13/13/11 platform that has five S10 AP2 attacks on the charge too :rolleyes: Something tells me Soul Grinders are about to run out of stock.....

I have a custom Defiler conversion that works just as well as a Soul Grinder. I assure you that if/when I use Daemon Allies that I will have one parked behind my Aegis line getting the benefit of the 4+ save modified by +2 for the Shrouded and shooting away happily.

[Learn2Eel]

Wow, I forgot that even vehicles get the benefits of Aegis Defence Lines/barricades lol. Man, taking an Aegis Line with the Quad Gun or the Comms Relay backed by a Soul Grinder or two will be crazy anti-air coverage....for the points/durability that is. I'm actually going to ask my LGS owner if I can use my old Defiler as a Soul Grinder now, though I am guessing the answer will be no - even though they kind of tricked me into buying it lol :cool: Add a Divination Tzeentch Herald backed by a unit of Pink Horrors and that is one nasty Allied Detachment!

Actually - that comes up to about 440 points. Not bad at all....though it might be too costly for others. Still, if you've a pair of Heldrakes, it may not be necessary.

[HERO]

Vehicles - including walkers - don't get the benefit of ruins or area terrain though. But, there is a way around this, and one that opponents may despise you for.
Vehicles get a 5+ cover save if 25% of their facing targeted by the enemy unit is obscured, right? Now, a Soul Grinder has two sets of big legs - ones that stretch out from the middle of the body. Place your Soul Grinder in a ruin/behind terrain, and position it so that enemies will not be able to see one set of legs, but the middle of the body - and thus its main gun - can still shoot without granting cover saves to enemies. And, to maximise the effect, try to get it so that your Harvester arm is also on the arm sticking out in the open. Unluckily for your opponent, if you do this right, your Soul Grinder will have a massive field of view, an insane 3+ cover save due to partial obscuration and Shrouded, it won't be granting your opponent obscuration cover saves in return, and its firepower is fantastic as well. All for a chunk less than 200 points. Ridiculous.

All on an AV13/13/11 platform that has five S10 AP2 attacks on the charge too :rolleyes: Something tells me Soul Grinders are about to run out of stock.....

I don't even..

.... what?

Pg. 75 man, stare long and hard. Come on dude, that musta been a brain fart. You can easily 25% the thing behind some ruins. Unless of course, your playgroup doesn't have any ruins like that, in that case if you play Dark Eldar, you might as well pack up and go home.

[daboarder]

Wow, I forgot that even vehicles get the benefits of Aegis Defence Lines/barricades lol. Man, taking an Aegis Line with the Quad Gun or the Comms Relay backed by a Soul Grinder or two will be crazy anti-air coverage....for the points/durability that is. I'm actually going to ask my LGS owner if I can use my old Defiler as a Soul Grinder now, though I am guessing the answer will be no - even though they kind of tricked me into buying it lol :cool: Add a Divination Tzeentch Herald backed by a unit of Pink Horrors and that is one nasty Allied Detachment!

Ok lets get a couple of things straight...

firstly vehicles DO get cover from ruins if they are eligible ie: 25% obscured.

Secondly that Aegis line must be pretty tall if its covering 25% of a defiler/soulgrinder

thirdly if you really play in an area where they won't let you sub a defiler for a soulgrinder....you need to find a new area.

[Learn2Eel]

Ahhh.....yes, brain fart. I'm tired.
Well, that's awesome!

Funny because I read that page, read those lines and somehow it still didn't register :rolleyes: I think I need lunch.
Well I'll ask my LGS owner, they should allow it. I love my Defiler, it's just a shame I haven't used it since the new Chaos Marine codex came out.

Been working it out. An AV 13/13/11 walker with 4 Hull Points, 4 S10 AP2 attacks at WS3 I3, a BS3 36" S8 AP3 Ordnance 1 Large Blast weapon, a S7 AP4 Heavy 3 gun that can Skyfire or fire at ground units, it causes Fear, has a 5+ invulnerable save, it has Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful (but when will you Run anyway?) meaning it can quite easily have a 2+ cover save, it can Deep Strike, etc, all for 180 points. Not to mention that, when taken with other cheap units from the same codex, it can get amazing buffs like re-rolls to hit for shooting and combat too.
I ask the question....is this the Chaos Daemons equivalent of the Heldrake (not so much the rules, more the idea of a unit that completely outclasses everything else in its slot/codex for the points)? Just asking, I don't think it is as broken as the Heldrake by a long shot but it is still ridiculously good now. I think it might even be a testament to the strength of the codex that we can get numerous other units that look awesome for the cost (Daemonettes, Tzeentch Heralds, Lords of Change, Seekers, Screamers, etc) that are all spread out through the different slots. Early impressions but the codex looks like it will be a lot stronger than before.

Hmm, I don't recall seeing whether they still ignore shaken/stunned on a 2+ like other daemon engines (though if they don't have Fleet/Daemonforge that would make sense). Wait and see I guess, or alternatively, can anyone confirm if they do still have it?

[Lord Krungharr]

Vehicles - including walkers - don't get the benefit of ruins or area terrain though. But, there is a way around this, and one that opponents may despise you for.
Vehicles get a 5+ cover save if 25% of their facing targeted by the enemy unit is obscured, right? Now, a Soul Grinder has two sets of big legs - ones that stretch out from the middle of the body. Place your Soul Grinder in a ruin/behind terrain, and position it so that enemies will not be able to see one set of legs, but the middle of the body - and thus its main gun - can still shoot without granting cover saves to enemies. And, to maximise the effect, try to get it so that your Harvester arm is also on the arm sticking out in the open. Unluckily for your opponent, if you do this right, your Soul Grinder will have a massive field of view, an insane 3+ cover save due to partial obscuration and Shrouded, it won't be granting your opponent obscuration cover saves in return, and its firepower is fantastic as well. All for a chunk less than 200 points. Ridiculous.

All on an AV13/13/11 platform that has five S10 AP2 attacks on the charge too :rolleyes: Something tells me Soul Grinders are about to run out of stock.....

Vehicles, including Walkers, gain the cover benefit of whatever is obscuring them by at least 25%. Ergo, if a Dreadnought is behind an Aegis Defense Line for example, it will receive a 4+ cover save. Similarly, if the same Dreadnought is in ruins and targeted by shooting, and from the point of view of the firer it's at least 25% obscured, it will receive the 4+ ruins save. The 5+ cover save for vehicles is just like the intervening unit out in the open save. So shrouded would indeed help out the Soul Grinder.

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah I realise that now :) Having an off day around the pinkie flesh, you know....

[Lord Krungharr]

Oops, I didn't see all the other replies about it. My bad. Kinda makes me want to make shorter Soul Grinders though :)

[Learn2Eel]

No worries :) Hahaha yeah, well technically you can bend the legs however you like when building them, just make sure to keep it consistent and no one will hassle you :cool:

I must say, it is smart marketing by GW...though I am sure others will come up with plenty more 'descriptive' and 'colourful' ways to describe it, all likely justified too. The Soul Grinder and Defiler never really sold amazingly well from what I can gather, and back in 5th, most would have used the Defiler because it was the only one of the pair that didn't completely suck rules-wise. 6th Edition comes along. The Defiler is nerfed hard, coincidentally occuring simultaneously with the release of the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend and Heldrake. They need to sell those kits though, so now the Soul Grinder is an insanely good walker - and arguably a more appealing model - compared to the Defiler.

Not implying anything of course ;)

[Red Angel]

The Soul Grinder sounds like it is awesome, it is great that it can also be used for air defence :D I am sure I will getting one for my Daemon army! :D Having 4 Heralds for one HQ slot is awesome! I am now going to fill up my other HQ slot with lots of Heralds :D
What do you all think about the new chariots like the Skull Chariot of Khorne and the Burning Chariot of Tzeentch? I am wondering if they are worth getting :D

[Learn2Eel]

Both seem to be pretty good. The Burning Chariot is an AV10/10/10 HP3 vehicle that shoots either D3 S9 AP2 18" shots or a S5 AP3 torrent template weapon. Both are decently devastating ranged attacks, and as a fast skimmer chariot, it is very mobile too - with a 5+ invulnerable save, it has some degree of survivability. For what you get, I would argue it is just fine - in fact, compare it to the Dark Angels Land Speeder Vengeance, and it looks like a far, far better deal, both putting out better firepower, being more durable, a better looking model, and a lot cheaper points wise too!

The Skull Cannon is an AV 12/12/10 HP3 chariot (I believe it is a fast skimmer, but I am not completely sure) that fires a S8 AP5 large blast with Ignores Cover that, as long as it hits an enemy unit, any friendly Daemon unit counts as being equipped with assault grenades when charging said unit. Basically, it can dish out a lot of damage through sheer number of wounds to MEQs and the like, be a light vehicle harasser in a pinch, and it will absolutely obliterate light infantry (Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, etc). However, its selling point is that 'any Daemon unit charging through cover at a unit that has suffered a hit from this weapon does not suffer the penalty to Initiative for charging through difficult terrain' and I think it will be very useful in mixed armies because of it. Like the Burning Chariot, it also has a 5+ invulnerable save :D

[Red Angel]

Thanks!! :D They both sound awesome! I am going to get both and a Soul Grinder :D

[HERO]

Update on Screamers:

SoubaFebruary 28, 2013 at 12:15 PM

got to correct myself here regarding screamers. they GOT nerfed :

profile is the same but their CC attacks are s 4 ap - now with 3 attacks in profile.
they can exchange all of their attacks for a a single S 5 ap 2 Armorbane attack.

Confirmed by 3 different sources.

:<

[Learn2Eel]

Awesome! I hope you enjoy them :)

Turns out my LGS will only let me use my Defiler as a Soul Grinder for play-testing. I can understand of course though, as they are trying to get rid of counts-as throughout the store (someone infamously tried to use a tissue box as a Land Raider in our store). Oh well.

EDIT: That's fair enough really. If all of their close combat attacks were still S5 AP2 Armourbane, I would say they were still way under-costed. Now they seem fair.

[HERO]

I don't really care honestly, with 2A on the charge and Prescience, you are only slightly weaker than before.

[Learn2Eel]

Yep, agreed.

Hmm, I just had a thought, which of our non-Troop units can take Icons and the like? Seeing as how all the kits are Fantasy-approved, I'm assuming quite a few of them can use banners in 40K. I know Bloodcrushers have the option in their kit, as do Plague Drones and Seekers, but does anyone know if they can use them? Cheers. It would make using Daemonettes/Bloodletters a lot easier, the latter in particular. Stll trying to work out how I am going to do Troops with this army haha. They definitely aren't bad, it is just....different, like, no transports and the like. Daemonettes are pretty quick and generally won't be perceived as a major threat, but Bloodletters will be very obvious bolter bait targets and aren't as quick as Daemonettes, not by a long shot. I'm not a Nurgle fan so I don't want to use Plaguebearers as my home objective sitters, but I am debating whether Pink Horrors would do alright in this role. Also, how many points should I spend on Troops in a Daemons army. Argh. Lots of stuff to go through when I grab the codex tomorrow morning....

[HERO]

I honestly think the best way forward is to just the big threatening stuff rush forward and then DS the troops in on top of them.

Seekers make for excellent delivery systems, as do Plague Drones simply because they never die. Bloodcrushers will attract a lot of fire as well, and as will your Greater Demons.

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah, I've actually been brooding along with this kind of army list, what do you think? Initial stuff still but I like it somewhat;

HQ
Lord of Change w/ mastery level 3, stave of change

Troops
Daemonettes (12) x2
Horrors (10) x2

Fast Attack
Seekers (10) w/ icon x2

Heavy Support
Soul Grinder of Nurgle w/ phlegm x2
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

And still 120 points to spare :eek: Anyway, nice synergy I found. Seekers/Burning Chariot/Lord of Change rush forward and provide opponent with a lot of immediate targets of very high threat level. Soul Grinders and Horrors hold the fort - Horrors sit on objectives, Soul Grinders sit in ruins and pound away. If the enemy doesn't kill the Seekers, Daemonettes deep strike down. Just debating what to do with the spare points now. Perhaps another unit of 10 Seekers without an icon, or maybe 12 Bloodletters as a cheap throw-away unit that my opponents will want to get rid of instead of the Daemonettes...hmmm.

In fact, if I dropped the Burning Chariot and relegated the Lord of Change to Mastery Level 1, I could take a second Lord of Change with the Stave as well and have 14 points to spend (i.e. another lesser gift on the Warlord one probably) :D I could even take a Keeper of Secrets to run with the Seekers, kitted out a bit (probably with two Greater Gifts) and have some points left over. Decisions, decisions!
Argh, could even drop the Burning Chariot and take Skarbrand lol.

[HERO]

Yeah, I've actually been brooding along with this kind of army list, what do you think? Initial stuff still but I like it somewhat;

HQ
Lord of Change w/ mastery level 3, stave of change

Troops
Daemonettes (12) x2
Horrors (10) x2

Fast Attack
Seekers (10) w/ icon x2

Heavy Support
Soul Grinder of Nurgle w/ phlegm x2
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

And still 120 points to spare :eek: Anyway, nice synergy I found. Seekers/Burning Chariot/Lord of Change rush forward and provide opponent with a lot of immediate targets of very high threat level. Soul Grinders and Horrors hold the fort - Horrors sit on objectives, Soul Grinders sit in ruins and pound away. If the enemy doesn't kill the Seekers, Daemonettes deep strike down. Just debating what to do with the spare points now. Perhaps another unit of 10 Seekers without an icon, or maybe 12 Bloodletters as a cheap throw-away unit that my opponents will want to get rid of instead of the Daemonettes...hmmm.

In fact, if I dropped the Burning Chariot and relegated the Lord of Change to Mastery Level 1, I could take a second Lord of Change with the Stave as well and have 14 points to spend (i.e. another lesser gift on the Warlord one probably) :D I could even take a Keeper of Secrets to run with the Seekers, kitted out a bit (probably with two Greater Gifts) and have some points left over. Decisions, decisions!
Argh, could even drop the Burning Chariot and take Skarbrand lol.

Honestly, the only build I think the LoC is worth it is Lv.3 Divination/Tz, with 2 greater gifts and a lesser. The lesser defaults to staff of course, but the rest is pretty much mandatory. Comes in at 305.

Your 120 points can easily go towards a unit of 3x Fiends. Fastest things out there and will probably attract fire more than anything else.

I don't like the smaller squads of units, but that's probably because I don't see 10x Daemonettes or 10x Horrors as a threat. I bet if they were in units of 20 your opponents would pay them at lot more attention!

Overall, I don't think demons can be successful with small Daemonette/letter/horror units. Plaguebearers, on the other hand, put 10 on an objective and go to ground every turn except for when it turns 5. That's a 2+ cover in 5+ terrain, every turn. No one is going to bother with them. If you want to play something a little more static, I'd definitely play PBs in the backfield instead of Horrors. 10 horrors are just terrible. Go big or go home with basically everything except for PB.

[Learn2Eel]

With the Horrors, it was mostly because I hate Nurgle and had nothing else, so I threw them in there as an example.
Maybe 15x Daemonette squads?
Are you sure I should spend that much more on the Lord of Change? It is very nifty as is, but I do see the value in paying 40 points to have a 4/6 chance (per roll out of two) of getting a defensive boost. And the offensive boosts are both awesome as well :)

Would definitely fill out the rest of those available points anyway.

Came up with this, still 25 points to spare (I could probably throw them on the Burning Chariot or whatever, maybe give the Exalted Flamer a Gift of some kind);

HQ
Lord of Change w/ mastery level 3, two greater gifts, stave of change

Troops
Daemonettes (15) x2
Plaguebearers (10) x2

Fast Attack
Seekers (10) w/ icon x2

Heavy Support
Soul Grinder of Nurgle w/ phlegm x2
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

Better? Another idea for spare points if I don't put them on the Burning Chariot would be to give each Daemonette unit a Musician so that provided one comes down the other unit will too. A gimmick maybe, but eh. Those 25 points are basically throw away points as far as I can see.

Damn, just realized how insanely good that Lord of Change build is, especially paired with double Divination. Crazy. Potentially a 4+ invulnerable save Lord of Change with Feel No Pain 4+ that re-rolls failed to hit, to wound and save rolls that is T7 with It Will Not Die, plus all of its melee attacks could inflict Instant Death due to a Warlord trait. And by rolling on two amazing charts, the chances of getting some crazy comboes are spectacular :D That potential build has 2 and 5 from Divination, and 1 and 2 from the Greater Gifts chart. Unlikely, but still...
Hell, that build would absolutely demolish even the Swarmlord (without Iron Arm/Warp Speed). Provided you passed your Feel No Pain save in the first round, you would also kill Draigo too on average. Of course, that is assuming a lot of random stuff goes you way. This is why this codex is so fun. It's like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get! ;)

[HERO]

With the Horrors, it was mostly because I hate Nurgle and had nothing else, so I threw them in there as an example.
Maybe 15x Daemonette squads?
Are you sure I should spend that much more on the Lord of Change? It is very nifty as is, but I do see the value in paying 40 points to have a 4/6 chance (per roll out of two) of getting a defensive boost.

Would definitely fill out the rest of those available points anyway :D

Oh yeah man, you gotta maximize the chance to get those defensive bonuses. The Greater Gifts are definitely a must have. You either definitely want that 1/3rd chance to get that +1T and It Will Not Die, or 4+ FNP.

[White Tiger88]

So guys due to what is out there info wise now...How is Slaanesh\Khorne looking? (I love blood thirsters lol)

Edit: i mean what units are GOOD for them? i didn't get a chance to figure out the german stuff posted.....

[miteyheroes]

I want to do a Khornzilla force, Bloodthirsters and Bloodcrushers and Flying DPs and so on. Do people think this will work in 6th?

[DrLove42]

Assault is a bit weaker in 6th, but i think that many MC's, particularly flying ones could scare a lot of peopl

[White Tiger88]

Assault is a bit weaker in 6th, but i think that many MC's, particularly flying ones could scare a lot of peopl

I happily Agree :3 I am confused thought about one thing....... Are any of the slaanesh chariots good?

[Caitsidhe]

I'm waiting, as we all are, on the book. I will say that I've seen nothing yet which convinces me that Daemons will be particularly fun to play or play against. They still look like a horde army to me if you play them as a stand alone army. More to the point, I don't consider them anymore competitive as a horde army than I do orcs or bugs. They will have the same horrible match-ups, the same good match-ups, and rely almost entirely on getting into close combat across the board for the win.

While I grant that they are fast, I don't think that is enough. They have some very interesting tools, but most of those tools are better used by OTHER armies in an allied capacity. Consider the Soul Grinder. This tool appears custom made for Chaos Space Marines. While it is nice that the Daemons have at least one tool for anti-air they lack the other support options to do as much with it. They lack the HQ that can repair it.

Then lets consider the fact that Daemons got some access to Divination. They aren't the faction who profits the most by having it. Chaos Space Marines actually get more synergy out of that discipline. The list goes on and on. I already know what I'm gutting out of the Daemons book for my CSM/Daemons lists. It just seems to me that the most balanced and competitive "all comers" lists are going to be CSM as primary detachment with Daemon allies. This seems to provide the most options and efficient use of the variable abilities. It strikes me that this was P. Kelly's intent, i.e. that the two books were intended to encourage people to expand to at least two armies. I have likewise seen these convergence in 6th Edition wherein other factions seem only fully functional after update when in alliance with a group which seems magically able to plug the holes in their offense.

I'm looking forward to reading the full book and digesting it, but it is hard not to see the carefully planned interaction wherein you can get (4) Heralds of Nurlge and join each of them up with a unit of Plague Marines if you wanted to do a Mono-God list and really min/max the benefits.

[BatMarine]

Heralds can only join "Units that are entirely comprised of Daemons of the same alignment as they are" so I don't see them being able to join Plague Marines unless you've figured out a way to make them Daemons first...

[Caitsidhe]

Heralds can only join "Units that are entirely comprised of Daemons of the same alignment as they are" so I don't see them being able to join Plague Marines unless you've figured out a way to make them Daemons first...

Interesting. I didn't see that part yet. It kind of defeats the whole point of Battle Brothers if they keep rigging ways to prevent their Independent Characters from being able to join CSM ones. I had heard that they could only join those with the appropriate Mark.

[Learn2Eel]

So guys due to what is out there info wise now...How is Slaanesh\Khorne looking? (I love blood thirsters lol)

Edit: i mean what units are GOOD for them? i didn't get a chance to figure out the german stuff posted.....

Daemonettes look to the be the most cost-effective of the Daemon Troops choices, but they need to be used with fast moving 'homer' units such as Seekers and the like for maximum effect. Whereas Plaguebearers can sit on an objective in small squads and be happy, Daemonettes simply need to be in combat both to survive and to do their job. Fiends of Slaanesh look to be quite good for the cost, with the debuffs they throw down being quite significant and really helping in an army lacking assault grenades (i.e. instead of them striking before you, you strike at the same time when charging through cover). Keepers of Secrets are really good for their cost, but they need at least forty points worth of upgrades (two greater gifts) to give them a much needed defensive boost. Still, given how cheap they are and how cheap everything else in a Slaanesh army is, this shouldn't be a problem, and you should have enough target saturation that they aren't the first ones to die. The Slaanesh chariots are better than they were from what I can tell - which means they are quite decent - and Heralds of Slaanesh/the Masque can provide some nasty buffs/debuffs for you and your opponent, respectively. Slaanesh Daemon Princes are very good, what with Fleet and the bonus to run moves for very cheap. Mono-Slaanesh looks to be quite decent.

As for Khorne, that may depend on where you play. Bloodletters are less multi-purpose than Daemonettes, in the sense that they can't harm AV12 (even if Daemonettes do it unreliably) and they don't put out enough attacks against +2 armoured opponents; however, if they get into combat against enemies rocking 3+ armour, provided they don't all die first for charging through cover, they will obliterate entire units with ease. They are the cheapest power weapons wielders in the game that I know of, and overall not bad for the cost. Like Daemonettes, you need fast homer units for them though, and that is where you will want Seekers over Bloodcrushers - Bloodcrushers aren't terrible, but Seekers are just a lot better now in my opinion, due to cost and both units' relative fragility. Bloodthirsters are pretty good, but just be very mindful that a Lord of Change at an equivalent cost can and will outperform your dedicated combat Greater Daemon in close combat against most units. Take some greater gifts and hope for defensive boosts, they don't need much else to work well. Flesh Hounds are now decent, being about as cheap as they were and having both WS5 and two wounds each! They work well as cheap harassment units that should hold their own against most equivalently costed units. The Skull Cannon is a near necessity, as it provides both long range fire and pseudo-assault grenades against any units it hits for all Daemons! Heralds of Khorne are pretty good, and though Skulltaker seems ok rather than anything special, Skarbrand is insane - if you can get Skarbrand down reliably in the same way as your Bloodletters and present enough targets that your opponent doesn't focus solely on him, he will wreck face. Khorne Daemon Princes don't benefit majorly from Furious Charge, but it is more important here than for CSM as you don't have access to the daemon weapons.

I think that whilst strictly mono-god builds aren't as good fundamentally as mixed armies, a Slaanesh/Khorne army should do just fine. Have a mix of Daemonettes and Bloodletters in decent sized squads (15 a piece or so) with a number of Seekers, a Bloodthirster or a Keeper of Secrets (or both) and some Heralds, adding in a Skull Cannon and maybe some unmarked Soul Grinders. It should do pretty well if you play it right, but you need to have a lot of units starting on the board so your opponent can't just pick you off piece-meal if you have a bad time with reserves/icons dying. Running five flying monstrous creatures is sure to make a lot of people sit up and take notice though - that would be three winged Khorne Daemon Princes and two Bloodthirsters in a themed army (as a Keeper of Secrets isn't a flying monster, though it might be better to drop one Bloodthirster so as to take Slaanesh Daemon Princes). Probably too expensive to run dual-Bloodthirster and triple-flying Daemon Prince at 1500 points, but it might be worth a shot. Mixing in flying Daemon Princes in any list is a very good idea.

[HERO]

Honestly, I think one of the better HQ choices is Skarbrand. No joke, he's cheap, comes with insane stats and deadly weapons, and with a bunch of Daemonettes and letters you essentially don't need any heralds for re-rolls to hit.

However, should he die, then that entire plan goes to waste.

Slaanesh and Khorne should probably see a 2:1 Daemonette/letter mix, 15+ units at least, Icons is a must but who cares about Banner really (except maybe on Khorne). Heralds to go with all, supported by Khorne cannons, Soul Grinders and Seekers/Crushers.

The only thing is that Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other :P

[memnarch_129]

Honestly, I think one of the better HQ choices is Skarbrand. No joke, he's cheap, comes with insane stats and deadly weapons, and with a bunch of Daemonettes and letters you essentially don't need any heralds for re-rolls to hit.

However, should he die, then that entire plan goes to waste.

Slaanesh and Khorne should probably see a 2:1 Daemonette/letter mix, 15+ units at least, Icons is a must but who cares about Banner really (except maybe on Khorne). Heralds to go with all, supported by Khorne cannons, Soul Grinders and Seekers/Crushers.

The only thing is that Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other :P

Yeah unfortunately no one pays attention to the old Rivalries from the 3rd Edition days (Slaanesh/Khorne, Nurgle/Tzeentch). I mean the Hatred(Chaos God) for that particular faction is nice but I would of more liked something along the lines of "if your army contains Any models dedicated to Slaanesh you may not take any models dedicated to Khorne". Of course most people would complain about that being WAY to restrictive but its fluffy as hell and thats how I roll.

[Kyla, Herald of Slaanesh]

Yeah unfortunately no one pays attention to the old Rivalries from the 3rd Edition days (Slaanesh/Khorne, Nurgle/Tzeentch). I mean the Hatred(Chaos God) for that particular faction is nice but I would of more liked something along the lines of "if your army contains Any models dedicated to Slaanesh you may not take any models dedicated to Khorne". Of course most people would complain about that being WAY to restrictive but its fluffy as hell and thats how I roll.

To be fair, the lore is changing form whence it came. In "Fear to Tread" we see that a Bloodthirster is working with a Keeper of Secrets to cause the fall/death of Sanquinius. As depicted, the two forces were always getting in each other's way, as their rivalry led them to down different paths (fall versus death). I think the rules for daemonic rivalry work well, though I could also have seen them using the rules for desperate allies (not as detachments, but rather merely as behavior) as well.

[Mr Mystery]

I may just treat myself to a Daemon army...

Just received a redress offer from the bank for a little over £3,000....

[spaceman91]

I may just treat myself to a Daemon army...

Just received a redress offer from the bank for a little over £3,000....

Why don't i get free money from the dirty, rotten, i mean the banks.

[Mr Mystery]

Helps to have been mis-sold PPI, and then get a job sorting the mess out.

Should have seen my letter to them! Was brilliant!

Though big chunk is going on killing my debts. Then back on easy street once again!

[Defenestratus]

I have to say that I've not seen this level of internet hysteria over a GW release in a long time.

Not even the DA or CSM releases gathered the amount of discussion that the daemon release has.

Wonder why.

[Caitsidhe]

I have to say that I've not seen this level of internet hysteria over a GW release in a long time.

Not even the DA or CSM releases gathered the amount of discussion that the daemon release has.

Wonder why.

My guess would be that CSM didn't really change at all. They played with some numbers and did some minor things but all in all it is exactly the same Codex it was before. Daemons they reinvented.

[HERO]

My guess would be that CSM didn't really change at all. They played with some numbers and did some minor things but all in all it is exactly the same Codex it was before. Daemons they reinvented.

The last major redesign was the Chaos Legion dex to Gav dex and most recently, 3rd Tyranids to 5th. That's why the hype is crazy right now... hype both ways.

Some say Dark Eldar, but honestly their playstyle hasn't changed much at all.

[KrewL RaiN]

To be fair, the lore is changing form whence it came. In "Fear to Tread" we see that a Bloodthirster is working with a Keeper of Secrets to cause the fall/death of Sanquinius. As depicted, the two forces were always getting in each other's way, as their rivalry led them to down different paths (fall versus death). I think the rules for daemonic rivalry work well, though I could also have seen them using the rules for desperate allies (not as detachments, but rather merely as behavior) as well.

The hate for their opposite god will always be there, but when there is much to gain, they will work together to an extent. If Chaos ever united, the universe would defiantly burn.

[spaceman91]

The hate for their opposite god will always be there, but when there is much to gain, they will work together to an extent. If Chaos ever united, the universe would defiantly burn.

if they ever did it wouldn't last. It's just like the orks, they have come together from time to time (not all as one) and caused tons of damage but it breaks down just because of who they are.

[White Tiger88]

Honestly, I think one of the better HQ choices is Skarbrand. No joke, he's cheap, comes with insane stats and deadly weapons, and with a bunch of Daemonettes and letters you essentially don't need any heralds for re-rolls to hit.

However, should he die, then that entire plan goes to waste.

Slaanesh and Khorne should probably see a 2:1 Daemonette/letter mix, 15+ units at least, Icons is a must but who cares about Banner really (except maybe on Khorne). Heralds to go with all, supported by Khorne cannons, Soul Grinders and Seekers/Crushers.

The only thing is that Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other :P

Oh i know they hate each other which makes it all the more fun to play! But wait IS there a new rule messing with taking the gods that hate each other?

[HERO]

Oh i know they hate each other which makes it all the more fun to play! But wait IS there a new rule messing with taking the gods that hate each other?

Not really, except for big *** boulders being thrown at your face if you roll poorly. Otherwise, no.

[White Tiger88]

Not really, except for big *** boulders being thrown at your face if you roll poorly. Otherwise, no.

Wait what?

[HERO]

Wait what?

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/02/warpstorm-table.html

[White Tiger88]

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/02/warpstorm-table.html

Ah ok thats awesome lol!

Now...to figure out how much demonic gifts cost -_-

[HERO]

Ah ok thats awesome lol!

Now...to figure out how much demonic gifts cost -_-

You've got to be kidding me man, have you NOT been following any of the rumors?

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/02/finally-solid-demons-info.html
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/02/chaos-daemon-qna-its-time-for-some.html

[Learn2Eel]

Guys, just a note, I have the codex and have found a couple of important notes;
1) Heralds can only be taken in a primary detachment. It says it right there in the army list, page 94;

"Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos.........This selection uses a single HQ slot". Damn.
2) You do not need to take a mandatory psychic power from your god! Page 68;

"For example, a Daemon Prince with the Daemon of Tzeentch special rule......he could generate all three of his powers from the Biomancy table". The limit on having only half of your powers rounding up for gods is still in effect though, ergo a Mastery Level 3 psyker can only have a maximum of two powers from their god.
Hello Mastery Level 3 Lord of Change with triple Divination! The same could be said of a Great Unclean One with Biomancy, but hey, the Nurgle powers are actually awesome.

For Slaanesh, the re-rolls to hit Locus is indeed the Exalted one, whilst the one that adds +5 to your Initiative is the Greater one.
Any unit champion in the army (very cheap) can also take daemonic gifts.....hello AP2 at Initiative Bloodreaper that costs squat!

[The Sovereign]

Guys, just a note, I have the codex and have found a couple of important notes;
1) Heralds can only be taken in a primary detachment. It says it right there in the army list, page 94;
Damn.


Wait, seriously? So you can't take any heralds in a Daemon allied force? That's a terrible rule. That's precisely when you would take them, due to their small points cost. They're meant to be mini HQs.

[MajorWesJanson]

So, the Nurglings:
have 1 better WS (yeah!), a BS of 3 (had 0, so what are they shooting now?), 4 wounds (1 better) , 1 better I, Ld 7 (was 10).
Still 5+ inv save...en probably cheaper...but no EW so them S6 weapons going to remove whole bases now, not just the wound, (or wounds in regard to blasts/templates)....
poor nurglings..? (and I love them!...ah well still will be fielding 18 though).

Does anybody know if they have some special rule?

Thanks
Sjap.


Most if not all Daemons have a BS value now, as certain gifts give units a shooting attack.

[Learn2Eel]

Wait, seriously? So you can't take any heralds in a Daemon allied force? That's a terrible rule. That's precisely when you would take them, due to their small points cost. They're meant to be mini HQs.

Yeah, I know.

Another interesting note; neither the Blue Scribes or the Masque count as Heralds. Ergo, if you want a cheap HQ, take them. Just be mindful that neither can join units....

[HERO]

Yeah, I know.

Another interesting note; neither the Blue Scribes or the Masque count as Heralds. Ergo, if you want a cheap HQ, take them. Just be mindful that neither can join units....

That means you can't take them via the 4 for 1 rule either.

I'm looking at the rules myself.

More notes:
-Plague fly things can only pick 1 attack to be the one with Instant Death, not all of them.

-Fiends are actually worth the "nerf" I think.
Soporific Musk: "All models in a unit that is successfully charged by one or more units of Fiends suffer a -5 penalty to their I until the end of that assault phase."

-Always buy the unit champion upgrade for +5. Worth it every time.

-The GUO is definitely the best GD I think for the points. Can take Lv.3 Mastery of Biomancy, comes stock with T7 + Shrouded, and has the best Greater Gift weapon. Balesword, Instant death, poison 4+, specialist, Touch of Rust (glances on a 6 unless the roll otherwise penetrates). That's 5 WS6 S6 attacks that inflict ID with poison. Put some Beasts/Flies in front of him for 3+ cover, with Iron Arm he can be S9/T10. Greater Gifts for +1W/It Will Not Die and 4+ Regen would be just insane.

-Even the base Plaguebearers have "touch of rust" because it comes stock on the Plagueswords. Poison 4+, and 6s on armor pen rolls = glance unless it otherwise pens.

-Whoever said Nurgle was bad are insane. The flies, beasts, PBs, heralds, GD, all rock out of control. They're impossible to shift off points by normal shooting in cover, and they're extremely cost effective for what they do.

Questions:
-Say you have the Etherblade and Greater Etherblade, if you have both on a GD he has +1 attack. However, when rolling for Master-craft, do you get two re-rolls or do you get 1 because obviously you're going to choose to use the +1S one.

-Instrument of Chaos: "If, when you roll on the Warp Storm table, you roll a "X power of X god" result, you may re-roll a single dice roll to determine if a unit is hit or not for each friendly daemon of "x god" model with an Instrument of Chaos currently on the table."

What do you mean re-roll a single dice to determine if a unit is hit or not? Does that mean you can use it to avoid being hit on your own unit, increase the chance to hit the enemy, or does that mean you can re-roll how many D6 hits you/he takes after you're already hit? Or re-roll scatter die even?

[HERO]

"Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos.........This selection uses a single HQ slot".

The wording for this is quite questionable. Does it really mean that a CSM player can't take Heralds at all?

Someone who isn't tired dissect the wording on this please!

[White Tiger88]

I have been following them but i must be blind i still don't see what each type of gift costs =/

[Learn2Eel]

That means you can't take them via the 4 for 1 rule either.

I'm looking at the rules myself.

More notes:
-Plague fly things can only pick 1 attack to be the one with Instant Death, not all of them.

-Fiends are actually worth the "nerf" I think.
Soporific Musk: "All models in a unit that is successfully charged by one or more units of Fiends suffer a -5 penalty to their I until the end of that assault phase."

-Always buy the unit champion upgrade for +5. Worth it every time.

-The GUO is definitely the best GD I think for the points. Can take Lv.3 Mastery of Biomancy, comes stock with T7 + Shrouded, and has the best Greater Gift weapon. Balesword, Instant death, poison 4+, specialist, Touch of Rust (glances on a 6 unless the roll otherwise penetrates). That's 5 WS6 S6 attacks that inflict ID with poison. Put some Beasts/Flies in front of him for 3+ cover, with Iron Arm he can be S9/T10. Greater Gifts for +1T/It Will Not Die and 4+ Regen would be just insane.

Questions:
-Say you have the Etherblade and Greater Etherblade, if you have both on a GD he has +1 attack. However, when rolling for Master-craft, do you get two re-rolls or do you get 1 because obviously you're going to choose to use the +1S one.

-Instrument of Chaos: "If, when you roll on the Warp Storm table, you roll a "X power of X god" result, you may re-roll a single dice roll to determine if a unit is hit or not for each friendly daemon of "x god" model with an Instrument of Chaos currently on the table."

What do you mean re-roll a single dice to determine if a unit is hit or not? Does that mean you can use it to avoid being hit on your own unit, increase the chance to hit the enemy, or does that mean you can re-roll how many D6 hits you/he takes after you're already hit? Or re-roll scatter die even?

Yeah, 5 points to give the unit a model to soak up challenges and get an extra attack is sweet. Especially given that for trolling you can take 10 point AP2 master-crafted weapons at Initiative order :D
It would be the weapon you use, so only one master-crafted applies for the weapon you pick.
Your first interpretation is correct - it is to reduce the chance you suffer from those anti-god effects, and also to increase the chance your opponent gets hit.

The Great Unclean One is great with those gifts, but I still think the Lord of Change wins on sheer versatility - Divination is so unbelievably good that I think it makes all the difference. Not to mention the Lord of Change doesn't have to swap out a Greater Gift to get a great weapon. Remember also that unless your opponent comes towards you and forgets how slow a GUO is, they can quite easily avoid getting into combat with it. Nonetheless, it is so hard to kill with particular rolls on Biomancy and Greater Gifts that it can be a massive fire magnet.


The wording for this is quite questionable. Does it really mean that a CSM player can't take Heralds at all?

Someone who isn't tired dissect the wording on this please!

I think it is clear. No taking Heralds in Allied Detachments.

[HERO]

Nonetheless, it is so hard to kill with particular rolls on Biomancy and Greater Gifts that it can be a massive fire magnet.

Or not entirely! If some dude keeps throwing Iron Arm on an already T7 GD with Shrouded, you'll NEVER kill it. Especially since it has stock 6 wounds.

I revised my current list at 2k, looks like this:


1995

HQ:
Lv.3 Telepathy Keeper of Secrets = 270
2 Greater Gifts, 1 Lesser Gift

Lv.3 Divination Herald of Tzeentch = 120
Disc

Herald of Slaanesh = 100
1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus, Seeker

Herald of Slaanesh = 85
1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus

Herald of Slaanesh = 85
1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus

TROOP:
20x Daemonettes (Champ) = 185
20x Daemonettes (Champ) = 185
10x Daemonettes = 90
10x Daemonettes = 90

FAST ATTACK:
20x Seekers (Champ, Banner) = 255
8x Screamers = 200

HEAVY:
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110

Honestly, even though the Tz Chariots Blue Horror upgrade doesn't stack, I still enjoy it a lot.

You know what's also funny I noticed today? How great the 6s to hit = Double S attack lesser gift is on a GD. That's S10 AP2 man. It basically translates to having the pseudo Khorne Instant Death weapon vs. most targets.


Especially given that for trolling you can take 10 point AP2 master-crafted weapons at Initiative order

I decided against the lesser gift for normal alluress just to save points sadly :( However, if I was to make a cut for AP2 weapons on the Alluresses, I would take off the Blue Horrors first.

[White Tiger88]

Gee thanks for pointing out what i missed guys -_- *Sarcasm alert*

[HERO]

Gee thanks for pointing out what i missed guys -_- *Sarcasm alert*


Nurgle Herald
ws 5 bs 5 t 5 w 2 i 4 a 3 ld 8
45 points. may take up to 30 points in gifts.
may be psyker up to level 2 for 25 points each.
may take presence of virulence: 10 points the model and its unit got poison 2+
presence of fertility 20 points the model and its unit gain feel no pain.
presence of affliction. 25 points. the model and his unit gains for every 6 on the enemy's to hit rolls instantly attack with s4 ap - and poison 4+ (next to the normal attacks)
palanquin 45 points: gains +2 w +1 a and is bulky.

I'll link it again:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?27643-Daemons-Rumours&p=287818&viewfull=1#post287818

[Learn2Eel]

Oh right, another thing;

That first gift on the Greater Gifts chart doesn't grant +1 Toughness, but +1 wound. In a sense, that is more advantageous for most of the Greater Daemons anyway.

[HERO]

Oh right, another thing;

That first gift on the Greater Gifts chart doesn't grant +1 Toughness, but +1 wound. In a sense, that is more advantageous for most of the Greater Daemons anyway.

Indeed it is.

Hmm, Have you seen the picture of the Keeper of Secrets in the opening battle scene? Definitely a new look for it. The boobs now have puckering mouths on them. Crazy weird, I love it.

[Learn2Eel]

Heh that sounds cool.

Yeah the Blue Scribes and the Masque aren't crash hot, but then, I don't think they are terrible. They are cheap and can potentially (randomly) make a big difference.
I think Karanak is fine. Its only problem will be high armoured opponents, but other than that, it is a pretty decent character killer. It will mulch through any squad leader, that is for sure, whilst providing some big buffs for whatever unit it joins - i.e. the now decent Flesh Hounds.

[White Tiger88]

So daemon prince wise what looks better, Slaanesh or Khorne? i am debating between one of each and a soulgrinder OR Exalted chariot for my heavy support :D

[HERO]

Heh that sounds cool.

Yeah the Blue Scribes and the Masque aren't crash hot, but then, I don't think they are terrible. They are cheap and can potentially (randomly) make a big difference.
I think Karanak is fine. Its only problem will be high armoured opponents, but other than that, it is a pretty decent character killer. It will mulch through any squad leader, that is for sure, whilst providing some big buffs for whatever unit it joins - i.e. the now decent Flesh Hounds.

Balance wise, I'm glad Crully (Cruddace/Kelly) made Heralds primary. Giving away 4-1 Heralds to CSM would be stupid.

[Learn2Eel]

I agree. Could you imagine the complaints if an army list could feature three Tzeentch Heralds all with Prescience and the like buffing Obliterators/Autocannon Havocs for diddly?
I wish they allowed you to maybe take just one Herald for an allied detachment though. At least Greater Daemons aren't mind-numbingly expensive for fewer returns as they used to be - investing points into them actually turns them into engines of death/durability, all for arguably less too. It also helps everything else is so much cheaper :D

[DWest]

Okay, thorny bit with the Burning Chariots- the Exalted Flamer's ranged attacks are both Heavy, and I don't see anything granting Relentless. Does that mean I get to move *or* shoot, or did they typo that?

[miteyheroes]

I wish they allowed you to maybe take just one Herald for an allied detachment though.

I could see them FAQing it to mean that in a Primary Detachment you get 4 per hq slot, in allied detachments you get 1 per HQ slot?

[Learn2Eel]

Nope. There's nothing granting them Relentless of any kind.
Dear lord, how did they mess that one up? Hopefully they FAQ it immediately....that was kind of the point of the thing, it is really quick and puts out a lot of damage, but it is brittle as hell. It is costed appropriately for that.
But yep. Can move and only snap fire its D3 shots :rolleyes:

By the way guys, I've got a codex summary (http://imperatorguides.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/chaos-daemons-initial-impressions.html) up if you are interested/don't want to go through this entire thread haha. Enjoy!

[Ribfeast]

@Learn2eel, sucks major for the Blue Scribes and the Masque. I honestly cannot imagining giving up an HQ spot for them at all.

Hey I haven't seen it anywhere yet but does epidemius count as 1 of the 4 herald u can take I hope?
Also not seen any stats or points for beasts of nurgle apart from charging out of turn,
What are they like now?

[Learn2Eel]

Yes Epidemius is treated as one of the Heralds.
Beasts of Nurgle are very hardy, with a high toughness, a crazy amount of wounds and It Will Not Die! Aside from that, they have a random amount of poison attacks and are generally pretty costly. I'm divided on them, honestly. They are very hard to kill, but very expensive.

[Learn2Eel]

Hmmm I know I came up with that heavily Slaanesh/Nurgle army list earlier, but I think I want to try and make a Khorne/Tzeentch one work as I like their models/fluff the most, respectively. It is difficult though. I am debating whether I want to use Skarbrand or stick to that tricked out Lord of Change - whilst I already have the big bird, and it does do a lot more for the army, I so want to use that awesome Khorne Daemon Prince as a make-shift Skarbrand model :D Also because running an uber-combat unit like that who is so cheap would be awesome in a semi-competitive sense! Could always just do multiple Daemon armies.

By the way, anyone got any contradictory evidence to say that Initiative values can never go below 1? The Fiends of Slaanesh special rule does not dictate "to a minimum of 1"......

Well got a mixed Khorne/Slaanesh/Nurgle army going;

HQ
Skarbrand – 225
Keeper of Secrets - 170

Troops
Bloodletters (15) – 150
Bloodletters (15) – 150
Plaguebearers (10) – 90
Plaguebearers (10) – 90

Fast Attack
Seekers (10) w/ icon – 130
Seekers (10) w/ icon – 130

Heavy Support
Soul Grinder of Nurgle w/ phlegm – 180
Soul Grinder of Nurgle w/ phlegm – 180

Much like my previous Nurgle/Slaanesh army with a Lord of Change, though I thought I would try to spice it up with Khorne. Thankfully (I was tearing my hair out about this earlier) friendly Daemons that aren't the same alignment can still get scatter reduction off of other aligned units, just D6" instead of no scatter. Ergo, same tactics as the previous army, just switch Daemonettes for Bloodletters, switch Lord of Change for Skarbrand (because he grants Rage and Hatred to everyone and thus means I don't need to take Heralds) and a Keeper of Secrets replaces the Burning Chariot. The Burning Chariot without Relentless sucks anyway sadly (I expect it to be FAQ'd), the Keeper will do some nice firepower drawing (which was the point of the Burning Chariot anyway) and Skarbrand can either plod up the field or deep strike off of the Seekers. What say you, especially compared to that previous list I had? By the way, this is in a meta where MEQ is dominant, ergo the Bloodletters are probably better anyway.

[KrewL RaiN]

I am a Khorne/Tzeentch player too, so I am curious what you come up with Eel!

I was just finishing some touch ups to my Bloodletters to get them new codex ready, and wow, they rather look good in a 20 model blob lol. I am pretty happy that all the gods are playable now. I have been wanting to combine all the aspects into a playable force for a long time. Hopefully, I can get my hands on the book tonight.

[Learn2Eel]

It is hard, as Horrors have been hit hard by the potential Deny the Witch/Warpflame situation. Thankfully, Warpflame isn't as bad - statistically, three fifteen-strong Horror units with Prescience from bare bones Heralds should all but wipe out a Space Marine squad each turn if they are in range. Not great, but hey, it is better than nothing, and it only takes up just over a third of your army list at 1500 points. The best way to minimise the effects of Warpflame are to try and focus fire - which you should do anyway. Bloodletters are still good, even if they need reliable deep strike homers - a role best filled by Seekers and Plague Drones, sadly, though Bloodcrushers aren't too bad for that. The hardest part, even though everything is cheap, is synergy - something that may take a few days to work out. Of course, you could always say "to hell with it" and run hordes up the field backed by fast moving units such as Bloodcrushers, Flesh Hounds and Bloodthirsters to force your opponent to fire away from your Bloodletters. I think that is the best way to go with mono-Khorne. Mono-Tzeentch comes down to wiping out a single unit each turn, i.e. not allowing it to potentially benefit from Warpflame. Mixing the two is the most difficult combination I can see, but I think it can work.

[KrewL RaiN]

I still dont get what would possess the dev's to hand out free FnP's to your enemy. I am also guessing it will stack... as in I gave my opponent a 6++. I shoot at them again next turn, and they get a 5++ if they make the test and live? They better FAQ that out :/

[eldargal]

Balance wise, I'm glad Crully (Cruddace/Kelly) made Heralds primary. Giving away 4-1 Heralds to CSM would be stupid.
I think Cruddly has a better sound to it.

[The Girl]

Gentlemen, play nice. If you don't feel like answering a question just don't... making personal attacks is not an acceptable way to respond. Thank you.

[DrLove42]

If CSM can't take Heralds I'm very dissapointed. I've bought the book to do it as a fluffy Word Bearers force, who frequently summon hordes of deamons. Having only foot deamons, not the big guys is a better fit.

And can someone look up primary detachments in the rule book? Doesn't an ally count as a primary detachment (for the ally) as over 2K you can double them as well?



Also Soul Grinder, with Deamon of Nurgle. Find ruins or defence line for a 2+ cover save....on a AV13 4HP brute. OUCH

[HERO]

Nope. There's nothing granting them Relentless of any kind.
Dear lord, how did they mess that one up? Hopefully they FAQ it immediately....that was kind of the point of the thing, it is really quick and puts out a lot of damage, but it is brittle as hell. It is costed appropriately for that.
But yep. Can move and only snap fire its D3 shots :rolleyes:

By the way guys, I've got a codex summary (http://imperatorguides.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/chaos-daemons-initial-impressions.html) up if you are interested/don't want to go through this entire thread haha. Enjoy!

Fear not, they are Fast Skimmers, so you can move 12" and fire a weapon.


By the way, anyone got any contradictory evidence to say that Initiative values can never go below 1? The Fiends of Slaanesh special rule does not dictate "to a minimum of 1"......

You're right, but I think it would be beardy to all heavens to tell your opponent to remove the models. If any major characteristic falls below 1, the model is simply removed. It's probably an oversight.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm just about done digesting the book. We pretty much knew what was in it before we got our hands on it. There were a few surprises, all of them bad. :) It has clearly been designed as a random hordes army. It isn't my cup of tea. I wouldn't enjoy playing this, nor do I expect to enjoy playing against it. It isn't broken. It will be slow, senseless, and not unlike throwing darts blindfolded. The intent on the part of Games Workshop is clear. I'm not certain they are going to get their wish though. I can't imagine Daemons really "taking off" beyond the normal 3-6 month Codex honeymoon. I'm not even sure (given how much it would cost to get a functional army) that they are going to get that. Time will tell I suppose.

[White Tiger88]

I'm just about done digesting the book. We pretty much knew what was in it before we got our hands on it. There were a few surprises, all of them bad. :) It has clearly been designed as a random hordes army. It isn't my cup of tea. I wouldn't enjoy playing this, nor do I expect to enjoy playing against it. It isn't broken. It will be slow, senseless, and not unlike throwing darts blindfolded. The intent on the part of Games Workshop is clear. I'm not certain they are going to get their wish though. I can't imagine Daemons really "taking off" beyond the normal 3-6 month Codex honeymoon. I'm not even sure (given how much it would cost to get a functional army) that they are going to get that. Time will tell I suppose.

IF i am lucky there will be a copy left at my local Gw when i go in today........But for now i have to ask, Are Soulgrinders really better then demon princes now???

[Lexington]

If CSM can't take Heralds I'm very dissapointed.
As I read it, they're entirely able to. Heralds are still HQ choices - they're just purchased differently in Primary Detachments. So, one per slot in an Allied Detachment, 1 - 4 in a Primary. Herald away, fellow CSMers!

[Caitsidhe]

IF i am lucky there will be a copy left at my local Gw when i go in today........But for now i have to ask, Are Soulgrinders really better then demon princes now???

No. I suppose it depends on what you NEED them for. They do different jobs. The Soul Grinder is absolutely better than a Defiler. It is probably better than MOST land vehicles (and many fliers) at this time. By use of Marks and Terrain you have a vehicle that is extremely difficult to kill. It provides you with great firepower and AA. Daemon Princes serve an entirely different purpose and for the job the do, a Soul Grinder would not be the best choice.

[White Tiger88]

No. I suppose it depends on what you NEED them for. They do different jobs. The Soul Grinder is absolutely better than a Defiler. It is probably better than MOST land vehicles (and many fliers) at this time. By use of Marks and Terrain you have a vehicle that is extremely difficult to kill. It provides you with great firepower and AA. Daemon Princes serve an entirely different purpose and for the job the do, a Soul Grinder would not be the best choice.

So would a pair of demon princes(1 khorne 1 slaanesh) and 1 grinder(khorne or slaanesh?) be a safe choice?

[RGilbert26]

How are you using the two DPs? If you want them as heavies you'll need a Greater Daemon first and then a matching Mark on the DP, otherwise they'll be two HQ choices.

EDIT: Also Nurglings can infiltrate :p

[White Tiger88]

How are you using the two DPs? If you want them as heavies you'll need a Greater Daemon first and then a matching Mark on the DP, otherwise they'll be two HQ choices.

I am intending to run a BT and KS after all this is my fun arny and there both amazing.

[DrLove42]

Biggest diapointment to me in the book?

Every picture in the book for the bestiary is Blanche artwork. I know some people like, but I never have.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Hate Blanche's artwork, as my Stepdad put it (artistic designer) "it looks shoddily drawn and coloured worse". :p

[White Tiger88]

Biggest diapointment to me in the book?

Every picture in the book for the bestiary is Blanche artwork. I know some people like, but I never have.

Its not THAT bad from what i have seen.....

[Learn2Eel]

Fear not, they are Fast Skimmers, so you can move 12" and fire a weapon.



You're right, but I think it would be beardy to all heavens to tell your opponent to remove the models. If any major characteristic falls below 1, the model is simply removed. It's probably an oversight.

Remember though, the shooting weapons do not come from the Burning Chariot itself, and there is nothing that grants the Exalted Flamer Relentless.
Actually, Initiative isn't counted as a characteristic that kills you if reduced to 0. It just means you can't strike blows in combat, as there is no Initiative '0' step in combat.


No. I suppose it depends on what you NEED them for. They do different jobs. The Soul Grinder is absolutely better than a Defiler. It is probably better than MOST land vehicles (and many fliers) at this time. By use of Marks and Terrain you have a vehicle that is extremely difficult to kill. It provides you with great firepower and AA. Daemon Princes serve an entirely different purpose and for the job the do, a Soul Grinder would not be the best choice.

Agreed.

[Daemonette666]

Okay, thorny bit with the Burning Chariots- the Exalted Flamer's ranged attacks are both Heavy, and I don't see anything granting Relentless. Does that mean I get to move *or* shoot, or did they typo that?

The Blue Fire of Tzeentch is not a template weapon, so you could fire it , but only with snap shots. The Pink Flame of Tzeentch, however can not be fired if the chariot (vehicle) moves. I do think this one will have to be FAQ'd.

I will not be taking Plaguebearers anymore. Even at only 9 points each, they can be mowed down by strength 8 weapons that will remove the FnP the Herald (if it is not killed by sniper or characters rolling a 6 to hit). This means TH/SS termies will be ruling the table, moving onto the objectives, and close assaulting your trusty defenders who then get slaughtered in 1 or 2 close combat rounds.

I tried to tailor a few lists to handle SM and MEQ lists that rely on a high % of TH/SS termies, but everyone says I am cheesy for using Abaddon and Tzeentch Chosen units with 5 Plasma Guns in each squad, as well as Obliterators of Tzeentch. This means I will have to be very careful about which daemon allies I use, and for which purpose I use them. Hold objectives with Chosen, and take them with Daemons.

[Learn2Eel]

Plaguebearers are best holding objectives in cover - that is what Shrouded is for mate. +2 cover saves in Ruins, or +3 cover saves in area terrain, increasing to +2 when going to ground. Not to mention, going to ground out in the open grants them something like a +4 cover save? People just have to think about their 'durability' differently now is all - for what people usually used them for, they are better than ever.

[Daemonette666]

And can someone look up primary detachments in the rule book? Doesn't an ally count as a primary detachment (for the ally) as over 2K you can double them as well?

No, The double FOC just means you can field more of the good stuff like up to 6 elites and 6 heavy support as long as you have 4 troops and 2 HQs in the Primary detachment. The allies just need to field 2 HQs and 2 Troops in a double FOC. Under the FOC, the Primary detachment is from the main codex - i.e. Codex CSM, while the allied Detachment is the other codex - i.e. Codex Chaos Daemons. The allies are optional, as are fortifications.

[Daemonette666]

Since Daemons are not fearless anymore, except in close combat because of the Instability rule, then they can fail their morale (as most have had their LD stat reduced), and they can now go to ground when the enemy charge them giving them a cover save (providing the enemy are not attacking with template weapons or weapons that ignore cover saves like noise weapons).

This has made Daemons weaker and prone to running off the table, and at the same time stronger when the enemy shoot at them IF they have no ranged weapons, are sitting on an objective, and are not being shot at with weapons that ignore cover (a lot of Ifs there).

[Daemonette666]

@ Learn2Eel - Just charge my plague bearers with your TH/SS termies, and my plaguebearer unit is now a dead plague bearer unit, which has held you up for a couple close combat rounds, and might killed a terminator or 2, and you keep going onto the next unit. I have seen it all done before, and lost so many units to them - Noise marines with FnP, Chosen with MoN and plasma guns, and so on.

The only ones who made a dent and lasted were Massed cultist with no mark at all, Chaos Terminators of Tzeentch with Power axes or Fists, Chosen of Tzeentch with Plasma Guns and champ with Power fist, Previous codex Plaguebearers who could rely on getting a FnP roll because they were Tgh 5 and also had a 5+ invul save.

The rest just melted like ice, and were a small speed bump for the TH/SS termies. The SM player used a whole army to support the 3 TH/SS termie squads, such as whirlwinds, scouts with sniper rifles, devastators with plasma cannons and lascannons, fliers and squads of troops in rhinos to hold the objectives once the termies removed my troops off them. Using Aegis Lines and Quadcannon just made a nice juicy target for the Termies to attack, so made my AA tactic useless.

[Learn2Eel]

Since Daemons are not fearless anymore, except in close combat because of the Instability rule, then they can fail their morale (as most have had their LD stat reduced), and they can now go to ground when the enemy charge them giving them a cover save (providing the enemy are not attacking with template weapons or weapons that ignore cover saves like noise weapons).

This has made Daemons weaker and prone to running off the table, and at the same time stronger when the enemy shoot at them IF they have no ranged weapons, are sitting on an objective, and are not being shot at with weapons that ignore cover (a lot of Ifs there).

Actually, they automatically pass Morale, Pinning and Fear checks. So no, they cannot run away. And plus, there are only really two armies that have Ignores Cover weapons in abundance - Noise Marines and Salamanders - and one of them is short ranged, the other medium ranged. Ergo, those cover saves you get are very important - Shrouded makes Plaguebearers and Soul Grinders unreasonably hard to kill from shooting, and shooting happens to be dominant at the moment. Ergo....


@ Learn2Eel - Just charge my plague bearers with your TH/SS termies, and my plaguebearer unit is now a dead plague bearer unit, which has held you up for a couple close combat rounds, and might killed a terminator or 2, and you keep going onto the next unit. I have seen it all done before, and lost so many units to them - Noise marines with FnP, Chosen with MoN and plasma guns, and so on.

The only ones who made a dent and lasted were Massed cultist with no mark at all, Chaos Terminators of Tzeentch with Power axes or Fists, Chosen of Tzeentch with Plasma Guns and champ with Power fist, Previous codex Plaguebearers who could rely on getting a FnP roll because they were Tgh 5 and also had a 5+ invul save.

The rest just melted like ice, and were a small speed bump for the TH/SS termies. The SM player used a whole army to support the 3 TH/SS termie squads, such as whirlwinds, scouts with sniper rifles, devastators with plasma cannons and lascannons, fliers and squads of troops in rhinos to hold the objectives once the termies removed my troops off them. Using Aegis Lines and Quadcannon just made a nice juicy target for the Termies to attack, so made my AA tactic useless.

Why would I charge TH/SS Terminators into Plaguebearers? TH/SS Terminators aren't there to kill 90-point Troops choices, they are there to charge Greater Daemons and other nasties. If you play against massed TH/SS Terminators, react in a way that is intelligent - massed high or medium strength fire power. Noise Marines paired with the Slaanesh debuff put out ridiculous numbers of shots - the point of TH/SS Terminators is that invulnerable save effectively denies AP2 shooting against them, ergo, you kill them the old-fashioned way, and that involves lots of boltguns. Plus, if your opponent is using three TH/SS Terminator squads, they are leaving themselves seriously strapped for points.....plus, don't you remember that they are combat-only units and as such you can simply avoid them or play "tag" with them? There are a lot of ways to get around them without even engaging them. Play smart - tarpit them for a turn or two early or late in the game, wipe out their other units - which shouldn't be all that difficult as they are spending so many points on those Terminators - and take the objectives. Simple.

Edit: Hey, I just noticed that the Daemonic Instability rule, page 26, states;


A unit with this special rule cannot be joined by a model without this special rule.

Note that it doesn't say 'and vice-versa' or anything to that effect. Though Heralds appear to be unavailable in Allied Detachments, it seems that they can actually join friendly Chaos Space Marine units. Or am I taking the interpretation of "unit" against "model" a little too far - i.e. unit would mean something like Bloodletters, model would mean something like a Chaos Lord? Yeah, I'm probably reading too much into it. Would be nice to take an Allied unit of Havocs with autocannons sitting with a Prescience Tzeentch Herald though :)

[HERO]

Wtf tz chariots!!!!

Can someone call and ask? I was seriously thinking of getting 3...

I'm on vacation right now with barely any service or I would myself

[Daemonette666]

I can think of another 3 armies that have flamers and heavy flamers in abundance, and one of them gets them very cheaply and can drop them off via valkyries or in Chimeras, while a second has 3+ armour saves drives around in rhinos and Repressors and has faith points to boost their shooting, and the 3rd has massed horde troops to back up their vehicle mounted burna boyz.

Having the wording changed so that daemons are not fearless but automatically pass morale tests, because they needed to to make the daemons disappear in droves through bad dice rolls for instability tests makes it so much better.

Why would you charge TH/SS termies into Plaguebearers in cover with a herald, or noise marines in cover with a banner of excess (FnP), because you cause instant death wounds cancelling out the FnP, you have a 2+ armour, 3++ invul save, and usually have ICs like chaplains to give re-rolls, etc. Also because I am holding an objective, and it is the easiest way to kill them off. Roll up a flank and force the enemy to react while you shoot the rest of the army, the FMC and fliers to bits with your Devastators and Quadcannon. I would not let a TH/S termie near my Bloodthirster. I would keep him flying, and avoid going near the Termies, and attack your support forces.

SMs and their kin have access to a good range of long/medium ranged and close combat specialist units and weapon options, and most of them are quite reasonable in price. To equal such an army you need to be just as flexible and have enough long range fire power, and have decent close combat troops/units. Daemons do not have that mix, and taking allies is the only option left to you. Either that, or be willing to give up holding objectives and go for the "all out kill them all" tactic, and roll up the enemy force who can then drop troops (deepstrike or drop pod) in your rear taking your precious objectives.

A smart SM player will likely have his troops set in, well supported, and make your life hell as you try to tar pit them. You could lose most of your army taking out his support units. Deep strike, and then lose most of the units due to enemy shooting them in their next turn. The daemonic assault rule seems to have gone, so you can not guarantee that 1/2 your forces will arrive when you need them to in your enemies deployment zone. Yes you can now set up on the board normally now, but with such low invul saves, low armour and relying on cover for most of the army, it makes the daemons less effective as a shock force. You have to start using them like a space marine army, but with very few ranged attacks among your forces you need to rely on CSM havocs and Oblits, and your precious Soul Grinders.

I never was a great fan of the Epedemius tally list and stopped playing it once I had proved to myself that it was OP/Broken. I think it is now useless having the rule, since it is so restrictive, and gives very few decent bonuses.

I did not notice the low LD of Furies . When you consider they are between 6 and 8 points a model, and you get 5 to 15 in a unit, they are just a very poor mans jump troops. LD 2 is very bad. and they are tgh 3, WS 3. To make them useful, I would have expected them to have a LD of 7 and have a max unit size of about 20 or 25. to make them a Horde assault unit.

Plague drones look interesting, but you can only get 9 max in a unit, and they are 45 points each before upgrades. Time will tell with this unit, and for the cost they are in the shops, they are not worth it for me to try and experiment with them.

I do not like the way Seekers and Daemonettes have lost their Attack and defence grenades. That was their trademark assault ability, and dropping their prices a little does not make up for it. They struck hard and fast, and then lost lots of models from enemy close combat hits. Now they strike last, and the enemy is not getting the full effect of a charge from them.

The warp storm table is unbalanced. Of the 11 possible dice rolls, you have 3 positive ones, 1 neutral roll, and 7 rolls that attack the daemons (units with daemonic instability) themselves. I would have expected a fairer table would make the average dice rolls between 6 and 8 to be warp is calm, while the rest 9-12 being good rolls of varying degree, and 2 - 5 being bad rolls of varying degree.

Some of the lesser, Greater and Exalted Loci are quite helpful ,but only one model in the unit can have its Loci active (the one with the strongest loci), so it makes units of heralds silly as they can not benefit from multiple Loci from the different Heralds at the same time (a waste of points).

Instruments have for the most part been increased in cost, and banners reduced in cost. Instruments can make it so you get most of your Daemon army down in one turn providing they all have an instrument, and have not taken a reserve roll this turn. Providing there is a banner down on the table you either do not scatter (same chaos god) or scatter D6" (different chaos god). Unfortunately non-Daemon units and units that are not subject to instability can not benefit from these banners.

For each Daemon unit that successfully passes a reserves roll another Daemon unit with an instrument can come on for free - this does not mean the whole army who is in reserves can arrive because of one successful reserves roll, that would make it a very broken rule.

This codex has 8 randomly rolled tables - 1 x warlord traits, 3 for the psychic powers, 1 each turn for the warp storm table, and 3 for the reward you have purchased. The CSM codex has only 5 - the warlords traits table, 3 for the psychic powers, and one for the chaos boon table when winning a challenge. This makes it harder to keep track of all your rolls, and to remember to to actually make the rolls when needed. I hate the randomness that the games has started to incorporate. It used to easier to work out and design an army. pay for your power/trait/skill and note it when making the army list.

From what I can see an allied Tzeentch herald, who would take up your entire allied HQ slot can join an unmarked or tzeentch marked CSM unit. A Herald is able to be part of an Allied Detachment, nothing I have read stops them from doing so.

[White Tiger88]

Anyone else find the Slaanesh Soulgrinder funny as hell? Rending Phlegm.....lol

[DrLove42]

Note that it doesn't say 'and vice-versa' or anything to that effect. Though Heralds appear to be unavailable in Allied Detachments, it seems that they can actually join friendly Chaos Space Marine units. Or am I taking the interpretation of "unit" against "model" a little too far - i.e. unit would mean something like Bloodletters, model would mean something like a Chaos Lord? Yeah, I'm probably reading too much into it. Would be nice to take an Allied unit of Havocs with autocannons sitting with a Prescience Tzeentch Herald though :)

Half and half. Yes this is partially true and Instability is a one way can't join street. However it previously says "Deamons can only join units composed entirely of similarly aligned deamons" so they can't join normal marine squads.

But Warp Talons, Obliterators, Mulitators are all Deamons, so they can join them.

Or just have the Herald in a deamon unit close. Prescience is a ranged ability after all.

If its FAQ'd to have multiple heralds per allied slot, or take Marine allies with Deamons, i'd be tempted to not only put Tz Herlad with the Havocs, but a Nurgle Herad with the FNP Loci with MoN Obliterators. 2 W, 2+, 5++, shrouded with FNP.....eeeeeep

[Learn2Eel]

I can think of another 3 armies that have flamers and heavy flamers in abundance, and one of them gets them very cheaply and can drop them off via valkyries or in Chimeras, while a second has 3+ armour saves drives around in rhinos and Repressors and has faith points to boost their shooting, and the 3rd has massed horde troops to back up their vehicle mounted burna boyz.

Having the wording changed so that daemons are not fearless but automatically pass morale tests, because they needed to to make the daemons disappear in droves through bad dice rolls for instability tests makes it so much better.

Why would you charge TH/SS termies into Plaguebearers in cover with a herald, or noise marines in cover with a banner of excess (FnP), because you cause instant death wounds cancelling out the FnP, you have a 2+ armour, 3++ invul save, and usually have ICs like chaplains to give re-rolls, etc. Also because I am holding an objective, and it is the easiest way to kill them off. Roll up a flank and force the enemy to react while you shoot the rest of the army, the FMC and fliers to bits with your Devastators and Quadcannon. I would not let a TH/S termie near my Bloodthirster. I would keep him flying, and avoid going near the Termies, and attack your support forces.

SMs and their kin have access to a good range of long/medium ranged and close combat specialist units and weapon options, and most of them are quite reasonable in price. To equal such an army you need to be just as flexible and have enough long range fire power, and have decent close combat troops/units. Daemons do not have that mix, and taking allies is the only option left to you. Either that, or be willing to give up holding objectives and go for the "all out kill them all" tactic, and roll up the enemy force who can then drop troops (deepstrike or drop pod) in your rear taking your precious objectives.

A smart SM player will likely have his troops set in, well supported, and make your life hell as you try to tar pit them. You could lose most of your army taking out his support units. Deep strike, and then lose most of the units due to enemy shooting them in their next turn. The daemonic assault rule seems to have gone, so you can not guarantee that 1/2 your forces will arrive when you need them to in your enemies deployment zone. Yes you can now set up on the board normally now, but with such low invul saves, low armour and relying on cover for most of the army, it makes the daemons less effective as a shock force. You have to start using them like a space marine army, but with very few ranged attacks among your forces you need to rely on CSM havocs and Oblits, and your precious Soul Grinders.

I never was a great fan of the Epedemius tally list and stopped playing it once I had proved to myself that it was OP/Broken. I think it is now useless having the rule, since it is so restrictive, and gives very few decent bonuses.

I did not notice the low LD of Furies . When you consider they are between 6 and 8 points a model, and you get 5 to 15 in a unit, they are just a very poor mans jump troops. LD 2 is very bad. and they are tgh 3, WS 3. To make them useful, I would have expected them to have a LD of 7 and have a max unit size of about 20 or 25. to make them a Horde assault unit.

Plague drones look interesting, but you can only get 9 max in a unit, and they are 45 points each before upgrades. Time will tell with this unit, and for the cost they are in the shops, they are not worth it for me to try and experiment with them.

I do not like the way Seekers and Daemonettes have lost their Attack and defence grenades. That was their trademark assault ability, and dropping their prices a little does not make up for it. They struck hard and fast, and then lost lots of models from enemy close combat hits. Now they strike last, and the enemy is not getting the full effect of a charge from them.

The warp storm table is unbalanced. Of the 11 possible dice rolls, you have 3 positive ones, 1 neutral roll, and 7 rolls that attack the daemons (units with daemonic instability) themselves. I would have expected a fairer table would make the average dice rolls between 6 and 8 to be warp is calm, while the rest 9-12 being good rolls of varying degree, and 2 - 5 being bad rolls of varying degree.

Some of the lesser, Greater and Exalted Loci are quite helpful ,but only one model in the unit can have its Loci active (the one with the strongest loci), so it makes units of heralds silly as they can not benefit from multiple Loci from the different Heralds at the same time (a waste of points).

Instruments have for the most part been increased in cost, and banners reduced in cost. Instruments can make it so you get most of your Daemon army down in one turn providing they all have an instrument, and have not taken a reserve roll this turn. Providing there is a banner down on the table you either do not scatter (same chaos god) or scatter D6" (different chaos god). Unfortunately non-Daemon units and units that are not subject to instability can not benefit from these banners.

For each Daemon unit that successfully passes a reserves roll another Daemon unit with an instrument can come on for free - this does not mean the whole army who is in reserves can arrive because of one successful reserves roll, that would make it a very broken rule.

This codex has 8 randomly rolled tables - 1 x warlord traits, 3 for the psychic powers, 1 each turn for the warp storm table, and 3 for the reward you have purchased. The CSM codex has only 5 - the warlords traits table, 3 for the psychic powers, and one for the chaos boon table when winning a challenge. This makes it harder to keep track of all your rolls, and to remember to to actually make the rolls when needed. I hate the randomness that the games has started to incorporate. It used to easier to work out and design an army. pay for your power/trait/skill and note it when making the army list.

From what I can see an allied Tzeentch herald, who would take up your entire allied HQ slot can join an unmarked or tzeentch marked CSM unit. A Herald is able to be part of an Allied Detachment, nothing I have read stops them from doing so.

My apologies, but a lot of that came off as an incoherent, rambling mess. No offence, just it isn't a very structured post and it is hard to follow lol. Anyway, those armies you mention are not at all common - at least, not taken in that way. How often do you see flamer-spam Imperial Guard? How often do you see Sisters of Battle? How often do you see massed Burna Boyz army lists that you wouldn't be able to engage before they get to your Plaguebearers anyway? Also I must again reinforce my original point - if you are assaulting my 90 point backfield unit with a 200+ point assault unit whilst I am barreling towards your home objectives, I would be the happier of the two. Trust me. Especially given you have to get them there first, and take a Chaplain as well? Great, 90 points gone. Woohoo. I think you also forget just how much mass we can field now....and not just with the little guys either. Like it or not, we are similar in theme to Tyranids with hordes backed by monsters. We have an emphasis on synergy, that much is obvious - our bigger and smaller units work much better together than alone. As for Daemonettes and Seekers losing their assault grenades, remember we do have quite a few ways around that - not to mention, their ridiculously low cost does make a difference, especially their speed boosts. Not to mention, have you not noticed they are Weapon Skill five now? That is huge. Also, a big chunk of those seven warp storm table rolls that "hurt" the Daemons also have a much higher chance of hurting your opponent.

@DrLove42 Yeah that sounds about right to me, I am assuming they blocked such combinations purposefully haha.

[Caitsidhe]

It just isn't a good book. I'm not one of the knee-jerk types who hates all random elements. I do not, however, want to play Candyland disguised for adults. :) It is an awful design on so many levels that it isn't even funny. It literally takes almost every element most people complain about and doubles (or triples) down on it:

1. It is now a horde army, which means slower tedious games.
2. As a horde army the investment to get a viable army is HUGE.
3. It has massive amounts of bookkeeping as all the constant changes need marking/tracking.
4. Large, poorly selected random elements will annoy both you and your opponents.
5. The elements designed to make games "cinematic" actually have the opposite effect as they are all or nothing.
6. Mandatory rolls have increased which further delay the game (and this is on top of being hordes).
7. You can mitigate the random factor by going mono-God (less chance of bad rolls) but this makes you a weaker army by default.
8. You are "Blood Brothers" with CSM but your unique rules eliminate almost all of said benefit.
9. Certain units became "auto-include" not only because they are good but because you have no choice (like Soul Grinders).
10. If you like fluffy armies it became even more difficult to build them in viable way.

I'm not saying there aren't potent things in the book. Please do not misconstrue my little list above. I'm not saying you can't compete with this big steaming pile. You can. What I'm saying is that within a short amount of time (after the test phase is over) people are going to groan and find excuses NOT to play you. This happens to Orc players quite frequently too and they aren't near this bad. This assumes there are that many people even trying to play this army in a short amount of time. This book is, without a doubt, the worst thought out design in a long line of nightmares. I think some LIBERAL application of errata and Faqs can retrieve it from the gutter. Do I think Games Workshop will have the stones and commonsense to do so? No. That isn't how they roll. I'm not a Daemons player. This book doesn't affect me directly (although it will when I have to play against it.... I'll bring a chair and a book to read). My review isn't being negative for negative's sake. I just don't see any positive benefits to the META overall let alone to Daemon Players.

[DrLove42]

I think saying its a crap book "because its Hordes and that makes it slow" is rubbish. Do you not play Orks and Nids becuase they have too many models?

[Caitsidhe]

I think saying its a crap book "because its Hordes and that makes it slow" is rubbish. Do you not play Orks and Nids becuase they have too many models?

I didn't say it was crap JUST because it is a hordes army. That is merely a factor. As it happens I DON'T play Orks or Nids because I have no interest in playing a hordes faction. I will play against them if/when they show up. They just don't show up all that often because they aren't that popular in my local Meta (and being hordes is a factor in it). I'm not going to lie. I find playing against Orks and Nids very tedious. Pick up games last an average 1-2 hours longer. Tournament games are rarely finished in the allotted time, which means we don't get all our rounds. I don't know what to tell you. I'm not making it up.

I think it is reasonable to assume that many people don't like playing Orks/Nids as much because:

1. The cost to get a working hordes ork/nids army is LARGER. You need more models.
2. The time required to assemble and paint a hordes army is LARGER.
3. The time required to move all your little models is GREATER.

[eldargal]

Edit: Nevermind, can't be bothered arguing with serial complainers at the moment.

[miksheridan]

Hi there, sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, i tried search fu-ing it but no luck. Early rumours had it that there may be some new info for malal/malice in the new daemons dex, just wondering if this turned out true or not.
Cheers

[Deadlift]

Personally it's always been about the models 1st, and Nurgle be praised I am loving all the models that this and the mini release we got last year gave to my favorite chaos god.
I love the idea of using plague toads as beasts of nurgle too in the recent WD. I would love to build and play a fluffy Deathguard / Nurgle Daemons list. I think if modelled and painted right it could look awesome.
I guess as a "fluff bunny" the perceived weakness of some units in the book would be something to work around instead dismissing them entirely. As long as they're Nurgle of course ;)

[Mr Mystery]

I too feel the lure of the stinky one...

Time for a new army right enough, but I'm torn between Daemons and Warriors of Chaos. Either would be Nurgle! At present most tempted by the Plague Drones. Such nice models!

[White Tiger88]

Edit: Nevermind, can't be bothered arguing with serial complainers at the moment.

I have to agree if you can't be happy about a str 8 large blast, that ignores cover and RENDS you just can't be happy about an ything!

[Daemonette666]

My apologies, but a lot of that came off as an incoherent, rambling mess. No offence, just it isn't a very structured post and it is hard to follow lol. Anyway, those armies you mention are not at all common - at least, not taken in that way. How often do you see flamer-spam Imperial Guard? How often do you see Sisters of Battle? How often do you see massed Burna Boyz army lists that you wouldn't be able to engage before they get to your Plaguebearers anyway? Also I must again reinforce my original point - if you are assaulting my 90 point backfield unit with a 200+ point assault unit whilst I am barreling towards your home objectives, I would be the happier of the two. Trust me. Especially given you have to get them there first, and take a Chaplain as well? Great, 90 points gone. Woohoo. I think you also forget just how much mass we can field now....and not just with the little guys either. Like it or not, we are similar in theme to Tyranids with hordes backed by monsters. We have an emphasis on synergy, that much is obvious - our bigger and smaller units work much better together than alone. As for Daemonettes and Seekers losing their assault grenades, remember we do have quite a few ways around that - not to mention, their ridiculously low cost does make a difference, especially their speed boosts. Not to mention, have you not noticed they are Weapon Skill five now? That is huge. Also, a big chunk of those seven warp storm table rolls that "hurt" the Daemons also have a much higher chance of hurting your opponent.

@DrLove42 Yeah that sounds about right to me, I am assuming they blocked such combinations purposefully haha.

I know a couple of Ork players who use massed troops, Flash Gitz, and Burna Boyz in large groups. I know they are quite common. I have corrupted sisters of battle, and the flame/ melta tactic is used by myself a lot. I know a couple of guard players who use a combination squads either with Plasma or Flamers in the back of Chimeras as mobile pill boxes. They are more common than you think.

2 of the local SM players have some very nasty tactics of sending up bikes with deep strike homers, guiding in Terminators with TH/SS who then clean up on a flank, and walk/charge their way through the enemies flank. They have a decent base force with assault squads, devastators, tactical squads, snipers, and Whirlwinds. Their tactics are good, and they clean up often, and can concentrate fire enough to mow down the advancing enemy forces with their anvil, as their hammer keeps on plodding along.

Daemonettes being WS 5 does not make up for the low initiative. Between overwatch and the enemy striking first, there will not be enough of them left to strike blows. Toughness 3 and 5+ invul save. They also have no ranged weapons, so the enemy have ample time to shoot them up as they move up as well. With area terrain being a 5+ CSv now, they can not get better than a 5+ save most times. in the old codex you expected to lose some as they charged in, but they then got to strike first and strike hard before they lost the bulk of their unit. At 9 points each, the unit is only marginally cheaper, and you can still only get a maximum of 20 of them.

Rolls 5, 6, 8 and 9 on the warp storm table are going to extend the game. You have to in most cases put a blast template on each unengaged enemy unit or unit of daemons of the selected Chaos god, including allied Obliterators, possessed, etc. You then scatter the blast/large blast templates and roll for damage and saves. games will need an extra 1/2 hour to 40 minutes to cover these pseudo-artillery strikes.

Lastly, I can not see how you thought my post was a rambling mess. Each topic/ discussion point had its own paragraph, unlike your reply where everything was just put in one big huge paragraph which looked messy. Not picking on you either, but you did bring the subject up.

P.S.

+1 to Caitsidhe I agree whole heartedly. Even the CSM codex is pushing you a little towards hordes of cultists, which can take up so much time to move.

[White Tiger88]

Um why is this thread turning into an argument between 2 or 3 people now? Lets all just enjoy the awesomeness that the new demon book is! (Slaanesh especially)

[Mr Mystery]

Never notice horde units slowing down gameplay.

I can I only assume there are those out there who measure each model's move with exceptional precision, as if it gives a tangible advantage.

Personally, I've never seen that.

[Learn2Eel]

I know a couple of Ork players who use massed troops, Flash Gitz, and Burna Boyz in large groups. I know they are quite common. I have corrupted sisters of battle, and the flame/ melta tactic is used by myself a lot. I know a couple of guard players who use a combination squads either with Plasma or Flamers in the back of Chimeras as mobile pill boxes. They are more common than you think.

2 of the local SM players have some very nasty tactics of sending up bikes with deep strike homers, guiding in Terminators with TH/SS who then clean up on a flank, and walk/charge their way through the enemies flank. They have a decent base force with assault squads, devastators, tactical squads, snipers, and Whirlwinds. Their tactics are good, and they clean up often, and can concentrate fire enough to mow down the advancing enemy forces with their anvil, as their hammer keeps on plodding along.

Daemonettes being WS 5 does not make up for the low initiative. Between overwatch and the enemy striking first, there will not be enough of them left to strike blows. Toughness 3 and 5+ invul save. They also have no ranged weapons, so the enemy have ample time to shoot them up as they move up as well. With area terrain being a 5+ CSv now, they can not get better than a 5+ save most times. in the old codex you expected to lose some as they charged in, but they then got to strike first and strike hard before they lost the bulk of their unit. At 9 points each, the unit is only marginally cheaper, and you can still only get a maximum of 20 of them.

Rolls 5, 6, 8 and 9 on the warp storm table are going to extend the game. You have to in most cases put a blast template on each unengaged enemy unit or unit of daemons of the selected Chaos god, including allied Obliterators, possessed, etc. You then scatter the blast/large blast templates and roll for damage and saves. games will need an extra 1/2 hour to 40 minutes to cover these pseudo-artillery strikes.

Lastly, I can not see how you thought my post was a rambling mess. Each topic/ discussion point had its own paragraph, unlike your reply where everything was just put in one big huge paragraph which looked messy. Not picking on you either, but you did bring the subject up.

P.S.

+1 to Caitsidhe I agree whole heartedly. Even the CSM codex is pushing you a little towards hordes of cultists, which can take up so much time to move.

Yes, in your meta. Odds on those armies are not common elsewhere, especially in a competitive sense. Sisters of Battle are particularly rare at the moment, and most Imperial Guard players will be maxing out on grenade launchers, plasma guns, meltaguns or heavy weapons on their squads. As for Orks, the Burna Boy heavy army is no doubt popular in some places, but not to the extent that I will lose Plaguebearers as often as you were intimating.

Of course it is a good tactic. But that isn't to say there aren't ways to counter it. Killing those bikers likely isn't hard - though I guess it depends on the level of points you are talking about. The speed of our units, the heavy firepower from our heavy support section, and our otherwise tough and quick monstrous creatures can make short work of those bikers pretty quickly. It is also about denial - TH/SS Terminators are by no means quick, even when deep-striking down. Unless you are playing on a small board, you can avoid them, especially given there is only so far the Bikes can go on the first turn without getting too close to enemy units that can, and probably will, kill them. Not to mention we have a lot of ways of dealing with Whirlwinds, Devastators and the like quite capably. Between Seekers, Soul Grinders, flying monstrous creatures and the like, we are not at all limited when it comes to dealing with such armies.

I'm sorry? Against most enemies, they will strike first, ergo losing that point of Initiative doesn't make a difference. The main issue is that they lost assault grenades, but given that there are ways to make enemy units strike at Initiative one - or worse, be unable to strike at all, all of which are readily available to Slaanesh Daemons - this is not as bad as simple "point and click" would tell you. Not to mention, Skull Cannons are durable, cheap and very reliable. They can solve that issue quite well. That extra point of Weapon Skill means they will hit most enemies on 3s rather than 4s, which makes a lot more of a difference than one point of Initiative. Aside from tank-hunting Wyches, who runs masses of Initiative six units? Not many armies, I can bet. Let's compare four attacks on the charge versus three attacks on the charge given the former hits on 4s and the latter hits on 3s - what is the difference? None. Both average the same number of hits, but against higher Weapon Skill units, such as Bloodthirsters and the like - who are becoming increasingly common - this means you will never have to hit on 5s. So actually, aside from losing grenades, their combat effectiveness against a host of units has stayed the same, and they now have cheap optional characters that can severely boost their combat effectiveness too. And again, they can mitigate the lack of assault grenades easily. As for Overwatch? Multiple charges - take Fiends and the like, and force your opponent to make a tough choice and either Overwatch the Fiends or hope they fail their charge (unlikely) and not Overwatch at all. For assault-based horde-heavy armies, such as Chaos Daemons, multi-assaults are very important as you can force your opponent to Overwatch the unit you want, as well as dramatically increase your chances. Again, you simply aren't looking at a wider perspective - your view point here is incredibly narrow. I understand that this codex is wildly different, and new strategies, combinations and tactics have to be adopted - however, this does not mean it is a weaker army. And actually, nine points as opposed to fourteen points is not 'marginally' cheaper. A horde of twenty from the old codex would have cost 280 points, whereas a unit of the same size from the new codex only costs 180 points. How is that in any way marginal? For that difference alone, you can add a Herald with the Exalted Locus, a champion, an icon bearer and a musician. And guess what? That unit is no less durable than before for the most part, and is far deadlier in combat. How is that a nerf again, especially given the availability of Fiends of Slaanesh and Skull Cannons?

I think you are forgetting that only two of those results causes a blast template to appear - the rest are D6 hits. And even then, they only affect units on a +6. How exactly does that add half an hour to a standard game?

It came off as a rambling mess because many of the points you were making were intimated in a way that indicated you haven't explored all of the possibilities in the codex. That might sound ignorant or mean, but I am absolutely confident that you are selling this codex far too short. That is a difference of opinion, I respect that, and I probably should not have made that comment. As for the 'over-long' paragraph, that length is actually pretty standard when writing in typical documents. Though your post was broken up, it seemed to flit on too many things too quickly without enough detail. Again though, that's just preferential.

I can understand why some have reservations about the 'horde' aspects of some armies, but I don't mind it. Daemons have always been a daemonic horde in the fluff, not a small elite force as their previous costs would have indicated. Whether you like the Warp Storm Table and the like (or not), I think they are definitely fluffy additions to the army. That isn't to say "fluffy is good", but I like what they were going for.

@Mr Mystery About the only problem I've had is my slower movement phases in the first two turns of the game or so. After that, it is no different than any other army. In fact, I spend less time thinking about things as the general idea with a horde army is "rush forward". With smaller, elite forces you need to be more careful - your fewer numbers naturally means you need to be more selective and cautious, after all. The later turns with my Tyranid armies are usually much quicker than they are with my Chaos Space Marines, as an example, despite usually having a lot more models on the board.

[Daemonette666]

I'm sorry? Against most enemies, they will strike first, ergo losing that point of Initiative doesn't make a difference. The main issue is that they lost assault grenades, but given that there are ways to make enemy units strike at Initiative one - or worse, be unable to strike at all, all of which are readily available to Slaanesh Daemons - this is not as bad as simple "point and click" would tell you. Not to mention, Skull Cannons are durable, cheap and very reliable. They can solve that issue quite well. That extra point of Weapon Skill means they will hit most enemies on 3s rather than 4s, which makes a lot more of a difference than one point of Initiative. Aside from tank-hunting Wyches, who runs masses of Initiative six units? Not many armies, I can bet. Let's compare four attacks on the charge versus three attacks on the charge given the former hits on 4s and the latter hits on 3s - what is the difference? None. Both average the same number of hits, but against higher Weapon Skill units, such as Bloodthirsters and the like - who are becoming increasingly common - this means you will never have to hit on 5s. So actually, aside from losing grenades, their combat effectiveness against a host of units has stayed the same, and they now have cheap optional characters that can severely boost their combat effectiveness too. And again, they can mitigate the lack of assault grenades easily. As for Overwatch? Multiple charges - take Fiends and the like, and force your opponent to make a tough choice and either Overwatch the Fiends or hope they fail their charge (unlikely) and not Overwatch at all. For assault-based horde-heavy armies, such as Chaos Daemons, multi-assaults are very important as you can force your opponent to Overwatch the unit you want, as well as dramatically increase your chances. Again, you simply aren't looking at a wider perspective - your view point here is incredibly narrow. I understand that this codex is wildly different, and new strategies, combinations and tactics have to be adopted - however, this does not mean it is a weaker army. And actually, nine points as opposed to fourteen points is not 'marginally' cheaper. A horde of twenty from the old codex would have cost 280 points, whereas a unit of the same size from the new codex only costs 180 points. How is that in any way marginal? For that difference alone, you can add a Herald with the Exalted Locus, a champion, an icon bearer and a musician. And guess what? That unit is no less durable than before for the most part, and is far deadlier in combat. How is that a nerf again, especially given the availability of Fiends of Slaanesh and Skull Cannons?

I think you are forgetting that only two of those results causes a blast template to appear - the rest are D6 hits. And even then, they only affect units on a 6+. How exactly does that add half an hour to a standard game?


When you charge through terrain you become initiative 1. If you have not employed ways and means to drop the enemies init, then they will be striking first. There will be none of the 1 point of difference for init that you mentioned, unless fighting Necrons or other Init 2 enemy. With many enemy able to take snipers, and characters who roll 6's who are able to target character models, many of those precious Heralds will die off quickly even with LoS rolls and you lose your locus. Taking a themed army which I had intended, you do not get skull cannons, and since I own only 6 Fiends, and will not be getting any more for a while, the fiend's tactic will falter when the fiends unit is wiped out by the enemy.

How are the blast templates or D6 hits on EVERY unengaged enemy unit going to add 1/2 an hour to a game. Roll on the chart. then take the time to pick each enemy unit not in combat and doll the D6 to see if the effect takes, then roll a D6 for number of hits or scatter the blast template, then roll for wounds, then make saves. Easily taking about 5 minutes depending on the size game, and who you are playing against (hordes). Multiply this by 6 - 7 game turns, and you can see what I mean.

When reading documents with HUGE paragraphs, I tend to lose my place jumping from line to line if the paragraph is too long. I get fed up and skim the whole thing, so lose specific points you might bring up. Hence why it looks messy, especially if you are discussing too many things in one paragraph. I then have to read it again to see if I missed anything. That is why I use smaller paragraphs, each one relating to a specific point. It is easier to follow, and means you can finish the paragraph, not lose your place, and then move to the next topic.

[Learn2Eel]

When you charge through terrain you become initiative 1. If you have not employed ways and means to drop the enemies init, then they will be striking first. There will be none of the 1 point of difference for init that you mentioned, unless fighting Necrons or other Init 2 enemy. With many enemy able to take snipers, and characters who roll 6's who are able to target character models, many of those precious Heralds will die off quickly even with LoS rolls and you lose your locus. Taking a themed army which I had intended, you do not get skull cannons, and since I own only 6 Fiends, and will not be getting any more for a while, the fiend's tactic will falter when the fiends unit is wiped out by the enemy.

How are the blast templates or D6 hits on EVERY unengaged enemy unit going to add 1/2 an hour to a game. Roll on the chart. then take the time to pick each enemy unit not in combat and doll the D6 to see if the effect takes, then roll a D6 for number of hits or scatter the blast template, then roll for wounds, then make saves. Easily taking about 5 minutes depending on the size game, and who you are playing against (hordes). Multiply this by 6 - 7 game turns, and you can see what I mean.

When reading documents with HUGE paragraphs, I tend to lose my place jumping from line to line if the paragraph is too long. I get fed up and skim the whole thing, so lose specific points you might bring up. Hence why it looks messy, especially if you are discussing too many things in one paragraph. I then have to read it again to see if I missed anything. That is why I use smaller paragraphs, each one relating to a specific point. It is easier to follow, and means you can finish the paragraph, not lose your place, and then move to the next topic.

I am aware that units are Initiative one when charging through terrain. However, as I stated numerous times, Chaos Daemons have quite a few ways around them. I think you misunderstood me - I was saying that the lost point of Initiative makes no difference, as I thought you made that point earlier. The loss of an attack and assault grenades is about the only 'nerf' they have received, but the higher Weapon Skill compensates for the first, and again, there are a lot of routes to avoid the second - especially given not all charges are made through cover in the first place anyway. I don't see how a two-wound model with a +2 Look Out Sir roll will die really quickly, even with an abundance of snipers around. Thinking about it for a second, it takes an average of six snipers or characters to get even one Precision Shot on a Herald - and that Herald will only fail their Look Out Sir roll once every six times. Not to mention, she has a +5 invulnerable save. Is your opponent going to shoot that many snipers/characters at that one unit specifically to take out one Herald, when even in a 1500 point game you can have so many more viable targets for those snipers that focusing on that one Herald is silly? Sorry to say, but it is nowhere near as bad as you claim. As for the Fiends of Slaanesh, you also have access to the Masque, remember? I don't want to outright say 'buy more', but even three Fiends of Slaanesh should survive for quite a while. Most opponents will not perceive them as a threat. Plus, they are so quick that they can quite easily jump from line-of-sight obscuring cover until they get close enough - or the Daemonettes do - when their abilities actually come into effect. Remember, again, like with any other army - target saturation is key, as is denying your opponents easy shots. You don't stick a Tactical Squad out in the open in range of a Vindicator, right? Apply the same principle here - just because you actively have to get closer to do you job does not mean you can't follow the same principles. Again, as a Tyranid player, I've learned these tactics quite extensively. Take it from me, if you do it right, you will be just fine.

I can do it right now. I run a mixed army with no Tzeentch units. I roll the anti-Khorne result. I point at Skarbrand and roll a D6. Nope. I move on and do the same with my other units. I can do that in ten to twenty seconds. Then I do it for every unengaged enemy unit my opponent has - typically ten or so in a 1500 point game. I do the same thing. It will take a minute at most to do every roll. That isn't even an exaggeration. In big games, yes it might be tedious, but I don't see it adding anywhere near as much time to a game as you seem to believe. And even then, what is the rush? A few extra minutes in a game shouldn't really affect your enjoyment of it.

Again, that's preferential. I can quite easily read long paragraphs, skim over the contents and know everything I need in seconds. Following a typical paragraph structure, it should start with a statement about what the paragraph will discuss, and end with a conclusion on that point whilst linking to the next paragraph. Again though, I read very quickly and thus I find it a lot easier to digest. Again, I apologise as it was a comment reflecting more on personal opinion.

[Deadlift]

More importantly Learn2Eel, when's your Tactica on these new daemons going to hit the forums, I enjoyed your previous run down of the last 40k releases :)

[Learn2Eel]

Still writing it :) I'm currently working on the Heralds - I have had to split up the HQ section into Greater Daemons, and then Heralds and Daemon Princes because I am writing too much lol. The Greater Daemons section is here (http://imperatorguides.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/chaos-daemons-tactica-greater-daemons-hq.html) if you want to have an early look :) When the entire thing is finished (probably within the week) I will make sure to post it all up here in the Tactica thread :D

And thank you by the way!

[Deadlift]

Your welcome, I enjoy your writing. Oh and if you fancy adding a mono god foot note that would be fab ;)

[Caitsidhe]

Just for the record, I wasn't arguing with anyone. I just gave my critique. I have no ax to grind because they aren't my army. In six months I don't expect to run into them very often at all. The current book actually means Daemons are going to be a very weak match up against my CSM/IG army. Go figure.

I don't hate the book. I just don't like the book. I think it is pretty dull. Horde type armies tend to be dull. I don't think "random" events spice them up. I think throwing in random, crazy events to try and make the army embody chaos merely demonstrates how little was accomplished in making the models chaotic themselves.

[KrewL RaiN]

As I convert my favorite 1500 point list from old to new dex, it looks so much better now. I feel I would have to do a few changes to it, but I refuse to play with unfinished models. I have no idea how it will perform now due to the new random elements, but I look forward to my first game with them! Only thing I am a bit sad with was that Daemons were my elite fast play army. Now I own 3 horde army's :<! I should also get a whiteboard haha. That was a good tip in Goatboys latest article.

I feel pretty positive with the book. Take away the random stuff that the internet is raging about, and you can see SO MANY build possibilities. It's got Kelly all over it! I am really impressed with the 6th edition codexes so far and I hope this trend continues. When I get my Chaos Marines playable, I cant wait to figure out ways I can combine my chaotic pawns!

I'll post the example of my before/after list. This is just showing how things have changed so try not to pick on it too much lol. I am a bit unsure with what I am doing, waiting for Eels wisdom in his new Daemon Tactica lol! So much has changed, it feels like I am relearning my army!

HQ:
Bloodthirster: Blessing: 255
Skulltaker: Juggernaut: 175
Herald of Tzeentch: Breath, Icon, and Disc: 120
Elite:
4 Bloodcrushers: Icon and Fury: 190
5 Flammers: Pyrocaster: 120
Troop:
5 Horrors: Bolt: 95
5 Horrors: Bolt: 95
8 Horrors: 136
8 Horrors: Bolt and Changeling: 151
Heavy:
Soul Grinder: Phlegm: 160
1497

And the new 1500:

HQ:
Bloodthirster: Greater Reward x2 = 290
Herald of Khorne: Juggernaut, Lesser Reward (Axe), Greater Locus of Fury = 130
Herald of Tzeentch: Disc, Mastery Level 3 = 120
Herald of Tzeentch: Exalted Locus of Conjuration = 70
Elite:
4 Bloodcrushers: Icon with Banner, and Bloodhunter with Lesser Reward (Axe) = 215
5 Flamers: Pyrocaster = 120
Troop:
15 Bloodletters: 150
15 Horrors: 135
10 Horrors: 90
Heavy:
Soulgrinder: Mark of Nurgle and Phlegm Bombardment: 180
1500

[CarcharodonAstra]

Q about the Warp storm thingy.

When regarding allies (i.e CSM) do they suffer/benefit from the Warp storm if their god has blessed/cursed them or is it a deamon only rule?

[KrewL RaiN]

From what I understand, its just units with the Daemon rule. So Warptalons, Possessed, Obliterators and Mutilators would be effected. Are Avatars from the Eldar book classified as Daemons too? Trying to think of what other books have Daemons... Dark Eldar has those Daemony things too.

And I take a peek at the book and Marks are effected by the angry gods attacks too.

[HERO]

I have dawned upon a great idea.

The 1-2 power from KoS is an great ability, one of the best and fluffy for Slaanesh.
However, the chances to roll this is only 1/3.
So..... keep the KoS at Lv.1 Psyker. He he rolls 5,6, he has to re-roll until he gets either 1-2 or 3-4. Hope for 1-2 of course!

[RGilbert26]

Avatar is classed as a Daemon.

[HERO]

This is what I plan on fielding:


2000

HQ:
Lv.1 Telepathy Keeper of Secrets = 220
2 Greater Gifts, 1 Lesser Gift

Lv.3 Divination Herald of Tzeentch = 120
Disc

Herald of Slaanesh = 85
1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus

Herald of Slaanesh = 85
1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus

Herald of Slaanesh = 100
1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus, Seeker

TROOP:
20x Daemonettes (Champ, Icon) = 195
20x Daemonettes (Champ, Icon) = 195
10x Daemonettes (Champ) = 95
10x Daemonettes (Champ) = 95

FAST ATTACK:
20x Seekers (Champ, Banner) = 255
9x Screamers = 225

HEAVY:
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110

Keeper stays with Lv.1 and either rolls on Telepathy or Slaanesh. Being Lv.1 on the Slaanesh table, if he gets 5-6, he simply re-rolls and hopefully gets 1-2. However, I'll be willing to just settle with Psychic Shriek every time from Telepathy.

Divination Herald hopefully rolls Misfortune. Prescience is a no brainer.

The rest of the Heralds party with the Exalted Locus of Beguilement, which gives her and the entire unit re-rolls to hit, her challenge can't be refused and she chooses who accepts.

The idea is:
Hug cover with 10x Daemonettes and get some points close to your table edge.
The rest rush up:
KoS, Running
Divination Herald + Screamers, TB
Seekers rush up with Herald, Running
All 3 Chariots, TB

Next turn, hopefully roll a 3 on your 20 unit block of Daemonettes.
Have it and the other unit of 20 Daemonttes come down right on top of the Seeker's Banner.

Your entire army is in his face by T2, with tons and tons of target saturation flooding the field.

Why buy the unit Champions? So in the event you roll a 3, you have 13 Champions to randomize on, preventing your precious Greater Daemon or other important Heralds from eating it.

[White Tiger88]

Guys please post your lists in the army list area....

[KrewL RaiN]

This is turning into a talk about all things Daemons thread, and its getting chaotic in here xP I just posed mine as an example on how things have changed from old to new with an identical list. I am not looking for advice. The rumours are over though. The Inquisition hasn't shown up to lock and bury this information from the minds of its citizens yet! Chaos shall reign free in this thread until then lol

[Learn2Eel]

Question - can Pinned psykers still cast Blessings?
If yes, how is this combination;

Take a unit of Horrors with a Herald of Tzeentch rolling with Divination for buffing and the like.
Chuck them behind an Aegis Defence Line and go to ground.
2+ cover saves with re-rolls of 1s whilst - if you are allowed to - handing out Prescience and the like :) Nasty allied detachment?

[White Tiger88]

Question - can Pinned psykers still cast Blessings?
If yes, how is this combination;

Take a unit of Horrors with a Herald of Tzeentch rolling with Divination for buffing and the like.
Chuck them behind an Aegis Defence Line and go to ground.
2+ cover saves with re-rolls of 1s whilst - if you are allowed to - handing out Prescience and the like :) Nasty allied detachment?

You can only reroll each roll once per-turn though. (By that i mean if you roll a 1, you can't keep rolling till its not a one you are stuck with the next result even if it is another 1)

[Learn2Eel]

Oh I am well aware of that fact, but still, +2 cover with re-rolls is pretty ridiculous.

[White Tiger88]

Oh I am well aware of that fact, but still, +2 cover with re-rolls is pretty ridiculous.

And rending range attack's that ignore cover arnt? :P

[Learn2Eel]

What are those on by the way? From memory having the Rending special rule in your profile, ala a Daemon of Slaanesh, does not carry over to your ranged weapons.

[Gir]

What are those on by the way? From memory having the Rending special rule in your profile, ala a Daemon of Slaanesh, does not carry over to your ranged weapons.

Slaanesh Soulgrinder.

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah I checked the rulebook and it says only if the actual ranged weapon has Rending does it count the benefits. If a model has the Rending rule, that applies only to its close combat attacks - unless they FAQ'd it? And the only weapon that Ignores Cover is the Baleful Torrent as far as I can see.

[White Tiger88]

Yeah I checked the rulebook and it says only if the actual ranged weapon has Rending does it count the benefits. If a model has the Rending rule, that applies only to its close combat attacks - unless they FAQ'd it? And the only weapon that Ignores Cover is the Baleful Torrent as far as I can see.

Rending should apply to all weapon's not just CC. its a damn walker\monster thing

[Daemonette666]

From what I understand, its just units with the Daemon rule. So Warptalons, Possessed, Obliterators and Mutilators would be effected. Are Avatars from the Eldar book classified as Daemons too? Trying to think of what other books have Daemons... Dark Eldar has those Daemony things too.

And I take a peek at the book and Marks are effected by the angry gods attacks too.

It is: each unengaged friendly unit containing one or more daemons of XXXXXXXXXX (or models with the mark of XXXXXXXXX) and each unengaged enemy unit, on the battlefield.

This means you could have a herald attached to an unaligned unit of Chaos Space Marines and the whole unit would be hit, just as long as there was a single model that was a daemon of the chaos power, or it had the mark of that chaos power. this means that you would have to roll for Abaddon and his bodyguard unit every time a 5,6 8 or 9 was rolled.

The only ally you can take that has Daemons is Dark Eldar, who are Allies of Desperation. You can not join your ICs onto their units or have your units joined by their ICs. Since AoD are enemies who can not be attacked by you or have blast markers placed over them by you, and they are not friendly models, they can not be affected by the 5,6, 8 and 9 rolls unless a blast marker deviates onto them. It also specifies daemons of a specific Chaos power, or models with the mark of that chaos power. Dark Eldar do not have Chaos marks.

[Learn2Eel]

The Chaos Daemons FAQ for the previous codex has only just disappeared. I expect it to pop up by this weekend.

[Defenestratus]

Oh I am well aware of that fact, but still, +2 cover with re-rolls is pretty ridiculous.

My pathfinders have been enjoying this for years.

One heavy flamer ruins their day badly.

[Caitsidhe]

My pathfinders have been enjoying this for years.

One heavy flamer ruins their day badly.

Yep. And heavy flamers are the new black. :D

[Learn2Eel]

At least Horrors get a +5 invulnerable save :D

[HERO]

The Chaos Daemons FAQ for the previous codex has only just disappeared. I expect it to pop up by this weekend.

I called the US office yesterday and the UK office this morning, the people that I talked to that no idea about any rules questions.

[Gir]

This means you could have a herald attached to an unaligned unit of Chaos Space Marines.

No you can't.

[DrLove42]

NO you can't as Gir said. Demons can only join someone with the demon rule. So they're limited to about 5-6 units outside of the deamon book.

The other factor is going to be the Instability Rule. It say models without instability can't join units with, but it doesn't say units with it can't join demonic units without it

[KrewL RaiN]

Poor Abaddon. He's going to get hit with all the angry gods attacks lol. He's the only being who has all 4 gods on his side, yet they will throw all their crap at him if he's in a warpstorm :O

[Caitsidhe]

Poor Abaddon. He's going to get hit with all the angry gods attacks lol. He's the only being who has all 4 gods on his side, yet they will throw all their crap at him if he's in a warpstorm :O

Yep. This was apparently not considered by them.

[Tynskel]

Yep. This was apparently not considered by them.

Are you sure? The Chaos Gods like to play with their toys.

[Learn2Eel]

Hey guys, just thought I would let you all know that I have sent a lengthy rules query email to GW's FAQ team, concerning all of the following; Daemonic Possession affecting psykers in vehicles; the Exalted Flamer lacking Relentless; whether charging with Screamers means two Lamprey's Bite attacks or just one; whether counter-charging with Beasts of Nurgle means Slime Trail comes into effect; whether Epidemius' Tally affects individual models within 6" or units with models within 6"; whether Soporific Mask reduces Initiative to a minimum of one, or if it doesn't, does that mean those units don't get to strike; whether Heralds can be taken as a 1:1 choice in an Allied Detachment or they can't be taken at all, and; whether the Blue Scribes and the Masque are supposed to be Heralds.

Some might seem obvious but hey, hopefully this will get a FAQ out quickly. Did I miss anything? I didn't bother asking whether the Bloodcrushers lacking a +3 armour save was intentional, nor did I bother with the Warpflame thing.

[HERO]

Hey guys, just thought I would let you all know that I have sent a lengthy rules query email to GW's FAQ team, concerning all of the following; Daemonic Possession affecting psykers in vehicles; the Exalted Flamer lacking Relentless; whether charging with Screamers means two Lamprey's Bite attacks or just one; whether counter-charging with Beasts of Nurgle means Slime Trail comes into effect; whether Epidemius' Tally affects individual models within 6" or units with models within 6"; whether Soporific Mask reduces Initiative to a minimum of one, or if it doesn't, does that mean those units don't get to strike; whether Heralds can be taken as a 1:1 choice in an Allied Detachment or they can't be taken at all, and; whether the Blue Scribes and the Masque are supposed to be Heralds.

Some might seem obvious but hey, hopefully this will get a FAQ out quickly. Did I miss anything? I didn't bother asking whether the Bloodcrushers lacking a +3 armour save was intentional, nor did I bother with the Warpflame thing.

I tried already, no email back. It's been 3 days now.

More insult to injury..
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/03/good-job-gw-nice-faq.html

[Eberk]

I tried already, no email back. It's been 3 days now.

More insult to injury..
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/03/good-job-gw-nice-faq.html
So much negativity...

I would rather wait a week for a good answer than expect one within the hour that doesn't make sense or is changed again the next day.


Keep in mind that replying to this kind of emails (with rules questions) can possibly affect a couple of hundred thousand gamers around the globe. Just saying.

[Learn2Eel]

I tried already, no email back. It's been 3 days now.

More insult to injury..
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/03/good-job-gw-nice-faq.html

I got my automated message, and that is all we need. They probably get hundreds, if not thousands of these emails. Just settle and wait for the English FAQ.

[guitarangry]

this is what it says ion their website about answering.

Contact Us With Your Questions!

The Games Development team is constantly looking for ways in which we can improve the quality of the material that we provide, and we believe that our Amendments, Errata and FAQ PDFs are an important part of this process. If you have noticed any errors which you believe need fixing, or have encountered any rules for which you require clarifications, we are always grateful for your feedback; please email this to us at [email protected] and we will do our best to answer your questions as quickly and clearly as possible in future updates.

so i think this means they wont answer your email directly most of the time and that the answer will be given in the future FAQ if it warrents it.

[Sarisial]

whatever did happen to these? i've been playing daemons since the last edition and have been waiting for new looking greater daemons but non on the horrizon :/

[Learn2Eel]

whatever did happen to these? i've been playing daemons since the last edition and have been waiting for new looking greater daemons but non on the horrizon :/

Hey mate, welcome to the forums!

Given the speed of releases for both Warhammer 40000 and Warhammer Fantasy, I think GW are going to find themselves without codices to update within the next two years. What this will likely result in is a focus on supplements, but instead of just being released alongside codex waves, they will have their own model waves to go along with them. The big shift for GW will likely be to move everything that is metal or finecast into plastic, and that includes the greater daemon models. We may have to be patient, but I am sure that there will be new greater daemon models within the next three to four years. Kind of a long time to wait, which is unfortunate, but I definitely think they will happen; it is just a matter of when.

I've found though that there are some really good models to substitute as Greater Daemons if you look around Forge World. The Khorne Daemon Prince on Forge World is an excellent substitute for a Bloodthirster; just purchase a pair of wings of your choice from GW, add some hard work and you will have an awesome Bloodthirster. The Great Unclean One can be easily stood in for by the Forge World Nurgle Daemon Prince, or even the Games Workshop Nurgle Daemon Prince - possibly with some conversion so that it looks distinct from other Nurgle Daemon Princes. Having seen the Exalted Keeper of Secrets in the flesh, the model itself isn't too large to use as a Keeper of Secrets, and it just makes an amazing centre-piece model besides. As for the Lord of Change, I've found either the standard model or Fateweaver are the best of the bunch. However, some very tricky - but awesome - conversions that I've heard of or spitballed involve a Nightbringer or suitable base model of your choice, bird wings of a kind, a set of Flamers of Tzeentch to mould over the face of the base model and give it a daemonic warpflame 'face' - which suits the Nightbringer's hood just fine as you don't need to account for the rest of the head - and the Pink Horror icon as the basis for a staff.

I hope that helps!