Grav Cannon, Oh Myyyy!

[Charon]

I would also say that they're drastically under-costed.

Not really. Its pretty much hit or miss. Great if you play anything with good armor, depressing if you run into Dark Eldar or Daemons.
Let us face it. Codex: CSM is a **** codex and nowhere near the powerlvel of the SM codex. His list is pretty hard to deal with while your is... yeah... you say it is good.

If you really want to get a fighting chance, try Khorne daemonkin and stay away from overcosted characters and units when he plays a strong codex and uses cost efficient units.
40k is pretty much in favor of the post necron codices with CSM, Dark Eldar and Orks so below that powerlevel that it becomes pointless to even try.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, the problem I have is that the best counter to Grav spam is to not being playing a Power Armour Army, but...well...

Mass Cultists might work out, both to tie up targets as well as to absorb those Grav shots. Still, not sure what you could run in CSM to really hold your own against this kind of list. It's not undercosted/overpowered, it's just a nasty hard-counter to your setup. Again, Grav Cannons are 35pts each, don't work well with mobile forces, and if you're against Daemons or any other Horde army then it's time to weep.

A bit like saying Flamers are OP because they slaughter way more than their points cost in Guardsmen in the ideal situation. IMO, Devastators shouldn't get the Grav-Amp as well because the Cannon alone is plenty good enough.

[Path Walker]

Did your opponent know what list you take? Its definitely great against your army but yeah, if he came up against a massive horde of Ork Boyz or something, he'd be screwed. Lots of grav cannons are great against the right army, like yours, but not against light infantry. Did he tailor the list to beat yours?

[Katharon]

Not really. Its pretty much hit or miss. Great if you play anything with good armor, depressing if you run into Dark Eldar or Daemons.
Let us face it. Codex: CSM is a **** codex and nowhere near the powerlvel of the SM codex. His list is pretty hard to deal with while your is... yeah... you say it is good.

If you really want to get a fighting chance, try Khorne daemonkin and stay away from overcosted characters and units when he plays a strong codex and uses cost efficient units.
40k is pretty much in favor of the post necron codices with CSM, Dark Eldar and Orks so below that powerlevel that it becomes pointless to even try.

Except that I'm not a WAAC or Power-gaming type of player. So all that advice doesn't mean much to me. Again, stressing my original point, grav weaponry needs to be adjusted somehow. To quite the fine fellows at 1D4chan:

Seriously though, Grav-Cannons+Gravamps are CRIMINALLY under-priced. According to FAXIV, the value of a 5-shot AP2 gun that has a 97% chance to wound per hit (89% vs 3+, 75% vs 4+) is a monstrously huge 75 points per gun. On average, 3 Gravcannons (i.e. 3 Dev Centurions) will kill 6-7 Terminators, or Immobilize any non-Superheavy vehicle three times (resulting in removal of 5 HP), per turn of shooting.

So that, multiplied by a factor of 4. He took a great weapon and spammed it. I ate that grav-spam sandwich with extra cheese. And while I didn't rage quit or concede turn 1 (like I almost came to wanting to do), I played it out to the end and accepted it.

I'm not gaming Daemonkin because I'm waiting for the new CSM codex that should be out sometime next year.

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Did your opponent know what list you take? Its definitely great against your army but yeah, if he came up against a massive horde of Ork Boyz or something, he'd be screwed. Lots of grav cannons are great against the right army, like yours, but not against light infantry. Did he tailor the list to beat yours?

No he didn't know my list. He knew which army, but not the list. And he freely acknowledged that it would be much more weak against horde armies. But how many people do you see running around with horde armies these days?

[Path Walker]

Except that I'm not a WAAC or Power-gaming type of player. So all that advice doesn't mean much to me. Again, stressing my original point, grav weaponry needs to be adjusted somehow. To quite the fine fellows at 1D4chan:



So that, multiplied by a factor of 4. He took a great weapon and spammed it. I ate that grav-spam sandwich with extra cheese. And while I didn't rage quit or concede turn 1 (like I almost came to wanting to do), I played it out to the end and accepted it.

I'm not gaming Daemonkin because I'm waiting for the new CSM codex that should be out sometime next year.

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No he didn't know my list. He knew which army, but not the list. And he freely acknowledged that it would be much more weak against horde armies. But how many people do you see running around with horde armies these days?

When I play my orks I use at least 120 Boyz if not more. Hordes will make a come back to counter grav spam if it becomes a problem.

[Charon]

Except that I'm not a WAAC or Power-gaming type of player. So all that advice doesn't mean much to me. Again, stressing my original point, grav weaponry needs to be adjusted somehow.

That is a little bit odd...
You wont get any other advice that "play a stronger setup". He went with a very strong setup and you basically lost to this setup. And your conclusion is not "I have to work on my setup or play people that accept my power level" but "grav weapons need a nerf!". That is a bit wonky.

Face the fact: GW doesn't give a rats *** about their design beeing reasonable. SM got their codex recently so there will be no toning down in the forseeable future. I also can't see a new or better CSM codex coming with Khorne Daemonkin using the same point costs and stats and a rumored Tzeentch Daemonkin on the way.

[Path Walker]

Spamming anything is a dickish move, if your opponent is knowingly using an army that isn't fun for you, then he's an arse, its not the game at fault, its the player.

[Charistoph]

I'm not gaming Daemonkin because I'm waiting for the new CSM codex that should be out sometime next year.

Be aware that we many not see CSM until the other 3 Daemonkin are released... And I honestly don't know if that would be a good thing or not.

[Arkhan Land]

ive played two games now against the skyhammer+grav combo and it is a pretty tough one to go against, in one game I was able to hold it off for a decen time till turn 4/5 when it was leaning towards my opponent but we were out of time thankfully I was able to only have to endure two turns of grav fire thanks to having more units than him and being able to get into combat, he put his gravs awafully close in but they are pretty limited range.

the second time I played against that formation was with my chaos/daemonkin force and and while they were able to tank a unit a turn I just had far too many of them for him to destroy them all, as people noted daemons (and spawns for your non daemon-based armies) presented a clear challenge but I also having been aware of the what was going to happen appropriately organzied myself to leave little effective pod-plopable zones that were safe, after all these guys are only t4 with a 3+.

Altogether though I feel yah that the hammer-grav setup is nasty, really only because of the added relentless USR issue. personally maybe a proper change would be some sort of rule affecting the effects of relentless/moving on salvo but this is such a nitpicking and detalied change that affects a lot more than grav so its not a worthwhile tree to bark up.


sometimes when you just order cheese they give you extra cheese

[Katharon]

Still think that since it's so readily available and that since it's so inexpensive for what it does, that changing the grav weaponry profile is a decent enough idea. Grav cannon: Salvo 2/3; Grav Gun: Salvo 1/2.