Cool things you've found in 7th Edition.

[Asuryan]

Vector Strikes with Flyers and Flying monstrous creatures are still D3 but now AP 2 sooooooo things like heldrakes and their meteoric descent could potentially do 3 Str 8 AP 2 hits to something's side armor. always fun.

1) Heldrakes are str 7 iirc.

2) vector strikes are only d3 when striking out at other flyers and FMC. they only do a single hit against ground units.

[Caitsidhe]

Master of Ambush has been supercharged in 7th. Instead of a D3 it now makes the Warlord and three non-vehicle units of your choice have the Infiltrate rule. *Granted this means that any dedicated transports of said units would get it by default. This is a pretty serious boost. It means that you can actually have up to (4) units with Infiltrate as the Warlord will commute it to any unit he starts with (at least as far as Outflank is concerned).

It also means that since the Warlord gets it himself AND he can grant it to three other units, the Warlord can be infiltrated forward. Huron and Ahriman got a nice rise in stock here.

*OR NOT... damn they have the CSM: Master of Deception which is inferior to the one in the new book. Hopefully they will Faq it to be like the new 7th Edition book one.

[Kristopholes]

1) Heldrakes are str 7 iirc.

2) vector strikes are only d3 when striking out at other flyers and FMC. they only do a single hit against ground units.

appreciate the fix there, still a potent little maneuver.

Speaking of Huron... with psychic focus now a thing, Huron's Hamadrya that allows him to be a Psyker lvl 1 and generate a random power from Bio, Pyro or Divination each turn also allows him to have the primaris power from whatever tree he draws from that turn. that's not bad in my opinion

[fedratsailor]

Blood angel Furioso Librarians are ML2. telepathy would be very usefull for them.

[Dambiel]

Grey knights are battle brothers with all human factions, making the Inquisition codex a worthless buy at the same time.

Grey Knights can not use the summoning daemonic powers. Codex Inquisition has no such limitation and for less than 20 pts you can take 2 accolytes and a ML1 Psyker. You can also add an inquisitor with servo skulls to shut down scout moves without having to add a troupe choice.. I'd say those are two very good reasons to own the inquisition.

[Caitsidhe]

I believe I've found something interesting and new. I apologize if someone else has already pointed this out. The rules on Ordnance have changed and now exempt vehicles from the limitation of not being able to fire its other weapons. Thus, the Defiler can now fire everything rather than just being limited to the Battle Cannon on the turns the Battle Cannon is fired. I know this change will make me evaluate them again, despite their hefty price.

*Nevermind, true to Games Workshop style, they placed the rule about other weapons having to snap fire in an another section entirely. Why they couldn't put the relevant rules TOGETHER, I don't know.

[daboarder]

*Nevermind, true to Games Workshop style, they placed the rule about other weapons having to snap fire in an another section entirely. Why they couldn't put the relevant rules TOGETHER, I don't know.

Because that would require more than minimal effort

[Haighus]

I like the changes to ramming. Heavy vehicles can now ram, and with a Strength modifier too- Leman Russes always ram at S10 now! Fast vehicles doing a suicide charge ram have taken a bit of a hit, and only open-topped vehicles can be exploded by a ram, but I guess this is fluffy. Is a great manouevre for a shaken vehicle though, or to finish off a vehicle on it's last hull point.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

It just depends on the situation and the "flock" of dragons. When you run 3+ Helldrakes you are willing to Hover with the odd one and even Jink because the others take up the slack on the alternating turns. Mr. Mystery, I am decent enough guy and fun to play. I am also (as my friend Kerstan will tell you) very competitive. I play to win. I will adjust my lists to make it a fair fight because I want to beat you myself and give you no way to blame it on my list. "I" want to beat you. But, as a competitive player, I understand the mindset of those who don't care about the challenge and only want to win. I don't begrudge them this mindset, I just don't share it. An empty victory means nothing to me; however, those types of players are very good at logistics, and thus to beat them I must be good at logistics.

The new rules are great from my perspective because it means the rug has been yanked from under the feet of all those complaining about the Helldrake. Logistically, however, the problems remain for those trying to fight it. Logistically the return on a dragon has not altered at all. The only thing that has changed is the margin of error in your flight patterns. It takes a bit more skill and knowledge to maximize air time and targets. As long as the person controlling them applies this care, the damage output is the same. Let me put it to you this way, how long do you think it will take for the average competitive player to fly flawless patterns? How long do you think it will take them to figure out that two dragons working in tandem can hit the same targets as before with the added bonus of an extra torrent? It all comes back to math. You should be pleased that I am cheering on this change to the rules. I agree with it, although not for the reasons most people seem enchanted by it. I like it because I'm sick of listening to people complain about dragons.

I think you are really downplaying the power down, the Helldrakes just took. The reduction in fire ark from 360 to 45, for its only gun is significant. Also the Zooming flyer can only pivot once, at the start of movement. This combined with its weaker rear Armour of 10, will change there effect on the game. The chance of a flawless pattern will go way down. Their Damage output will be lower, much lower.

I agree that we might see more of them and you do gain power with the increase in numbers. I would say though that you will get less in total then you are hoping for because of their overall power down. A real problem you might find is that they cant Score while zooming. This will effect the game also in that, end game plays become more risky.

For me the elimination of the maximum on reserves means the return of my lists that hit almost entirely from reserves, i.e. coming in from Outflank, Deepstrike, and fliers of course. It means very hard times for gun line armies who got an unfair boost by the fact so many of us were forced to put half our armies on the gun range for them to attrition until our up close and personal Flamers, Meltas, Baleflamers, etc. arrived to decimate the gun lines.

I also play a army that starts off board. This strategy has gotten a bit more risky in 7th. I play with 4 flyers and a drop pod. In 7th the start of the game has made playing like this less scary for the enemy. If you win the roll to go first and then choose to deploy 1st, you get to choose who takes the 1st turn, AFTER both sides have fully deployed. That takes some of the wind out of the sail for this 'Null' type of deployment. It can still work and i hope is still unorthodox enough to cause panic in a General.

[Caitsidhe]

I think you are really downplaying the power down, the Helldrakes just took. The reduction in fire ark from 360 to 45, for its only gun is significant. Also the Zooming flyer can only pivot once, at the start of movement. This combined with its weaker rear Armour of 10, will change there effect on the game. The chance of a flawless pattern will go way down. Their Damage output will be lower, much lower.

Well I've played a fair number of games now, and included three Helldrakes every time to make sure I give them a proper test and so far they have not performed any less effectively before. The only difference is my opponents feel constrained against complaining about them. I've even had an invisible one running around in hover for awhile. That was a hoot. Do I disagree with you that they have changed? No. I do disagree with you about their fundamental purpose. They are high strength AP-3 air to ground killers. They continue to excel at that and so far I haven't even missed the larger firing arc. The fact that I just put more Helldrakes on the table without getting shamed MORE than makes up for it.

I agree that we might see more of them and you do gain power with the increase in numbers. I would say though that you will get less in total then you are hoping for because of their overall power down. A real problem you might find is that they cant Score while zooming. This will effect the game also in that, end game plays become more risky.

I wondered about that myself but didn't find them particularly vulnerable when dropping to hover. I've actually used them to score objectives in the Maelstrom missions many times. They are pretty good at suddenly going to Hover moving into scoring range and vaporizing the Troop unit I couldn't normally contest. What you seem to assume is that my comments are based on estimations. They are not. They are based on games already played. I'm thrilled with the change. I cheer you on in spreading the idea that the Helldrake is no longer the monster it was before. You go! I like that notion.