Proxies: When it isn't ok any more

[MajorSoB]

Good topic Duke!

My idea of whether or not to allow proxies seems black and white in my mind:

I would allow proxies if:

-someone is testing out a new army or unit for playability.
-the models being proxied are of similar size and base the same way as the models they represent.
-it is clear what they represent.
-"counts as" models fit the above requirements and fit into the theme of that army.
-they are being used by a younger player who cannot financially afford the proper models.

I would not allow proxies if:

-the models are the wrong size and based improperly.
-they are contradictory to theme of the army.
-its an ongoing issue, one game is fine but after several games buy the models!
-it is in a tournament and not preapproved by the judges. Fun games are one thing but if you have the money to play in tournaments for prizes you have the money to buy the proper models.

WYSIWIG is the best policy. It eliminates cheating and confusion. At the start of the game explain anything that is not 100% WYSIWIG. Ask you opponent if its OK to use something, most often the answer is "Yes", but dont show up with beer bottles for drop pods, green army men glued to bases or falcons whittled out of packing foam, duct tape and toilet paper rolls and expect that to be alright, buy the freaking models!

[ForeverHero]

As I play at the same store as Duke, I’m all too aware of the players in question; both are young adults but their hobbies are funded by their parental units.

The Guard player in question has over-converted his models to the point where it is very hard to differentiate them from one another. To expand on this I recently played this person and he is using a space marine model to represent Colonel Straken. I initially thought that he was running an Inquisitor and when I asked if that was the case, he corrected me and stated that it was in fact Colonel Straken. He commented that Straken has the same stats as a space marine and that is why he used it. I disagreed and explained that he should have converted a guard model instead of using the space marine as that is misleading to your opponents. He got upset at me when I recommended that he obtain the correct model; asked if it was just temporary and he stated that he had no intentions of replacing it.

The Chaos player, as Duke has mentioned, is running Chaos Knights as Bloodcrushers and has close to a year to obtain the correct models. My opinion is that he should have used the larger bases for the models and then spent the pats years working on purchasing the correct models. He is a good player but in my opinion, by not using the correct base size, is skewing the game to his favor. By using the smaller bases he can bring them onto the board into a smaller area thus avoiding a possible mishap, etc.

I can understand when there is one or two models being proxied, I do it myself from time to time with my SM Dev squad. However, I clearly notify my opponent before each shooting phase and at the beginning of the game what is proxied. I also make sure to not have more that one or two models being proxied at a time. It is one thing to proxy a unit for testing purposes but a whole other issue to have an entire unit or several units proxied. Anyone remember, Dr. Pepper-Fex?

Cheers,

FH

[ForeverHero]

Oh, one other item I forgot, the Guard player over-converted a Leman Russ that was just a little too much for me and I did not allow him to use that in our game. He went for a Tank Destroyer look by swapping locations of the battle-cannon and the lascannon. At first I thought he was going to use the IA rules for the Tank Destroyer so I asked how he intended use it and he said it was a regular Russ. In game terms, the battle cannon has 360-degree traverse while the lascannon is only front-facing; he intended use line of sight all around for the lascannon so I said no.

Regards,

FH

[MajorSoB]

I agree with your post FH.

This is the reason that many people and clubs just say no to proxies because once you allow one you begin sliding down a slippery slope that seems to have no bottom. I also understand the difference between a 12 yr old who uses what he has access to and a veteran who has used Chaos Knights for over a year with no intention to replace them. Simply put I would refuse to play him until the proper models appear in his army. I would tell him I understand all too well what he is doing and if he cannot afford the models at this point then dont play the army. You also could show up with a dozen or so bricks and say its your mech guard army. Tape some straws to the top and you got some dirt cheap chimeras. Use this special army only when you play this player, I am sure he will take the hint. Heck loan out this army to anyone else who wants to play him, I know I would!

[Old_Paladin]

Oh, one other item I forgot, the Guard player over-converted a Leman Russ that was just a little too much for me and I did not allow him to use that in our game. He went for a Tank Destroyer look by swapping locations of the battle-cannon and the lascannon. At first I thought he was going to use the IA rules for the Tank Destroyer so I asked how he intended use it and he said it was a regular Russ. In game terms, the battle cannon has 360-degree traverse while the lascannon is only front-facing; he intended use line of sight all around for the lascannon so I said no.

See, I wouldn't mind this conversion; as it has some give and take. The single-shot BS:3 lascannon might have some better ability compared to normal, but the much better battlecannon is now more limited (with a fixed arc and lower line of sight; cannot be hulldown and firing the main gun).
Ask any tank historian; which was the better tank. The M3 Lee or the M4 Sherman.

Now, if he wanted a pintle-mounted lascannon, I could see the problem.

[oni]

"When it isn't OK any more" implies that it's OK to begin with. No proxies in my games, no exceptions. You will respect me as a player by not bringing that **** to the tabletop just as I will respect you as a player by not bringing that **** to the tabletop.

If you choose to insult me by using proxies then you'll be playing either my...

Imperial Guard


or my...

Tyranids


The choice is yours.

[Talon57x]

See, I wouldn't mind this conversion; as it has some give and take. The single-shot BS:3 lascannon might have some better ability compared to normal, but the much better battlecannon is now more limited (with a fixed arc and lower line of sight; cannot be hulldown and firing the main gun).
Ask any tank historian; which was the better tank. The M3 Lee or the M4 Sherman.

Now, if he wanted a pintle-mounted lascannon, I could see the problem.

Sherman by far.

As for proxies/counts-as, what my gaming group's unwritten rule is that if it is Citadel or FW from the same/similar army, or if the person has put converting effort into it, or if it just looks cool, then we allow it. Usually the army theme must be cohesive. One of our guys also does the Balrog-as-Greater-Daemon thing, and because it fits and looks good we are fine with it.

In my gaming group, it is not as much about the rules as it is about the look, fluff, and "feel" of an army. We have a term for attempts to s t r e t c h the counts-as/proxy unwritten rules: It's a shoebox Baneblade.

[Brass Scorpion]

Some of the worst proxies I've seen or heard of either because they are too hard to keep track of or because they totally destroy the visual appeal of the hobby or both:
- A tissue box (e.g., Kleenex) for a Land Raider
- Drink bottles (e.g., Gatorade) for Drop Pods. It's really bad if they just finished drinking from the bottle and the label is still on it.
- Lasgun for heavy weapon (e.g., this guy with a lasgun is really a lascannon, autocannon, etc.)
- Empty black plastic bases with the name of the troop type written on them
- Empty black plastic bases with nothing at all on them.

If someone is just trying something out this way short-term to see if they want to buy it that's one thing, but beyond that it's a nuisance at the very least and should be stamped out as an affront to the hobby.

[lobster-overlord]

Ok, the baby toys as Tyranids gave me such a good laugh that I almost woke up my 3 year old.

@FH: Yes, I remember the Dr. Pepper Fex (see my previous post after my name-sig).

I agree whole heartedly with the concept that if it follows the theme and is cohesive with the army then it should almost always be allowed (footprint/size not withstanding).

In my Vostroyan army, I am wanting to go with general Vost look for the units. Those I don't have, I will build. However, for my Apoc IG army, I'm a little more free with it, but my intention is to still have cohesive units. For my Troops, I'm expanding with Cadians. I have some old Viridian models from Void 1.1 which will make great Conscripts. Keeping the colors the same will make them cohesive. However, my Penal unit is a gang of Eschers from Necromunda, as I still have those floating around. Now comes the hard part. What makes a suitable Chimera for a penal unit from a hive world? Not a chimera for sure. So I will be proxying a chimera with a kitted out Ork War Trukk. No ork bitz, but a multi laser, pintle stubber, open back with extra armor and spots for firing points. The spirit of the chimera are there, the foot print is essentially the same. The capacity is roughly the same, adn it fits thematically with the unit it will be attached to.

Our store is pretty good about things. There's only that one Tyranid player that's a douche.

John M>

[Morgrim]

I have used a wingless balrog as a proxy for a talos, when I was testing it out over an afternoon of gaming. Friend was fine. Friend actually suggested it because he wanted to see what happened when a furioso fights a talos. (If the talos doesn't have backup, it loses. Badly.)

I now have a talos in my standard kabal army. However, I do not use the talos model as I dislike it and it doesn't fit the theme of the rest of my army. I use a converted fantasy dark elf hydra instead. I do not feel this is 'proxy', but 'counts as'. Size wise, a hydra facing backwards is roughly the same size and shape (if you discount the tail) as a talos. If anything, the hydra is slightly larger; this is an advantage to my opponent, not me. All shooting attacks are meant to come from the sting, so I measure from the middle head. This is nice and obvious, and as a bonus is about the same height as the talos model on the supplied flying base. The large flying base has a footprint identical to a dreadnaught base, which my hydra is on.

On the WYSIWYG side, my hydra actually follows it more closely than the original model. Up to 6 shots going in different directions make more sense when it is because you have gun mounts on multiple heads that are all facing in different directions. And D6 attacks in CC works fine as 'claws with blades + whichever heads are able to bite something'. It also stops people thinking that the talos is a skimmer when under 5th ed rules it is a monstrous creature.

Granted, it isn't painted to the quality of my army yet, it is a WIP mixture of metal, resin, plastic, brass and greenstuff. I'm still armouring him, but as I tend to only play with friends I've never had an issue, and the GW redshirts think it awesome when I'm sitting in there sculpting on it. I'm saddened by those few people that say I can't use it 'because it isn't the official model' but most of them are jerks I wouldn't play anyway. I'm as far as one can get from a powergamer or tourni player, though, so in the long run it isn't bothering me.