In the Future, All Space Marines Will Be Warhammer 40K Space Marines

[Caitsidhe]

Well this has gone awry!

Me, I've been mucking about with a custom sofa design website....£760ish for a corner sofa/sofa bed combo? Not bad at all!

What's the site and do they deliver in the U.S.?

[Wolfshade]

Perhaps, but I prefer to believe that people like you and I can engage in a civilized debate (even a passionate one) and actually come to some conclusions and mutual agreement on the points upon which can be agreed upon. Likewise, I like to believe that such people can also agree to disagree when the discussion makes it clear. Far too many people argue just for the sake of argument and thus don't actually care about the search for truth in the debate. I'm glad that you and I don't fall into that grouping.

Yes, too often debates devolve into mud slinging which benefits no one and is detrimental to the commnunity as an whole.

I think that is how it happened too, and therein lies the problem. Treating EVERYONE as hackers and pirates, assuming guilt and acting as if every artist is a thief is not a good way to run a business nor public relations. While I understand the mentality of going after Amazon, my issue is the lack of context and assumption that I (and everyone else) is by default a thief. If they are going to make the jump into literature and such, they are going to accept that the same process by which they try and look for and stop people from scanning and distributing their books via PDF is not appropriate.

I do think that this is a bit strange, especially in context of the shared view of "Innocent until proven guilty". However, it does seem a (worrying) trend that in terms of copyright/patent infringements etc. it is infact guilty until proven innocent and so the burden moves from the accusor to prove that what has been done is illegal but is now the defender to prove that they are innocent, which could end up with a lot of spurious claims that cost individuals their livelihoods as they cannot afford to defend themselves.

I'm not so sure about this part (in our agreement). My reading and understanding of Trademark is that it deals in specifics, not generalities. By my understanding, I can write a book about Space Marines if I want as long as it is clearly not the Space Marines of Games Workshop. In short, the product line is defined by more than a generic name. We would have no argument at all if as... see below...

I agree with this and it is the issue where the registered name and the common name are the same. But I think the reason why this book does cause issue is that it uses the term which is ambigious and could cause confusion. Though realistically, if you know GW you know what their books look like and so it wouldn't cause confusion, the other group probably is unaware of GW or their registered mark so wouldn't cause the confusion otherwise.

Hoover is a very distinct, i.e. near unique name and applied to vacuum cleaners. This is a strong Trademark and you will get no argument from me about their ability to say, "you can't call your machine a Hoover." The context counts, however, as I could certainly write a book about an evil Hoover that starts killing people (silly as such a story would be) and I would not require their permission. I would probably ask for it to be polite, but in such a flight of fantasy and parody, it is not required.

The issue comes into clarity with the world "cola" which is generic, while coca-cola is not.

Certainly, however we must remember in this instance GW does sell books with the word Space Marine in their title. In the examples we have explored the product does not sell books and so the registered mark isn't in place for that specific use.

[Psychosplodge]

Well this has gone awry!

Me, I've been mucking about with a custom sofa design website....£760ish for a corner sofa/sofa bed combo? Not bad at all!

Pics or it didn't happen

[Caitsidhe]

Certainly, however we must remember in this instance GW does sell books with the word Space Marine in their title. In the examples we have explored the product does not sell books and so the registered mark isn't in place for that specific use.

Yes but that is their choice, i.e. using generic terms in the industry/setting. They have left the world of toy soldiers now and must accept that they are NOT the big dog. I will agree (as would most of us) that in the world of tabletop gaming, they are whom you think of first in regards to space marines. Beyond their little world (and it is little as much as I hate to say it since I am a denizen) they don't hold that honor. Most people don't know Games Workshop, and would laugh at the idea of people playing with toy soldiers. They know the term "space marine" because of books of science fiction that they have read, movies they have seen, or simple discussion of the military moving into space. In that light, a toy company seems trivial to them and is not unlike the old movie "The Mouse that Roared!"

Let's compare oranges to oranges and apples to apples. There are literally thousands of thousands of books out there with the word dragon in the title. Without a doubt there are many series of books that have a Trademark. Dragonlance would be a good example. Please note the specificity of the name. Consider the specificity of the Trademark. Let's look at another gaming company. The owners of Magic the Gathering AND Dungeons & Dragons is called "Wizards of the Coast." I'm sure they would rather have just called themselves "Wizards." Wisely they considered the weakness or impossibility of such a Trademark.

I can see why Games Workshop might do a double-take and look into a book that has "space marine" in the title, but I don't understand why it went any further than that.

[DrLove42]

My only comment is that there seems to be a lot of Vitriol over this, more so than if any other company had done it.

When Bethesda slapped Mojang over the word "scrolls" in a title there wasn't this much hate. If that happened to any other company other than GW people wouldn't care. People seem to actively be looking for excuses to kick and stab at GW

[Caitsidhe]

My only comment is that there seems to be a lot of Vitriol over this, more so than if any other company had done it.

When Bethesda slapped Mojang over the word "scrolls" in a title there wasn't this much hate. If that happened to any other company other than GW people wouldn't care. People seem to actively be looking for excuses to kick and stab at GW

To the contrary, I would have reacted exactly the same if any company (of any kind) tried to use their Trademark to censor literature in this way. I don't need an excuse to bash Games Workshop. If I don't like someone or something I've never been shy about saying so. The famous authors who spoke out don't give a rat's patootie about Games Workshop either. It is the chilling idea that one day all writers would have to spend weeks if not months of research trying to find words they can use without paying some entity and the economic censorship that would create that inspired the passionate reaction.

Let's consider how many terms there are for space and how many for soldier in the common, generic vernacular. It would only take a handful of people/companies planting their flag before nobody could write anything without paying a "toll."

[lattd]

What I find so frustrating with this discussion is the amount of people and organizations claiming that GW has not got a trademark on Space marines in terms of books. It seems because people did not find one in America that one hasn't existed in any other country. The fact was a English company with a European wide Trademark on Space marine in various areas since 1996, took action to defend its trademark as required by law so that its shareholders, the key interest of GW, again by law was not negatively impacted.

People just seem extremely offended that a company has acted under its legal requirement, even if the link was on the extreme end.

[Caitsidhe]

What I find so frustrating with this discussion is the amount of people and organizations claiming that GW has not got a trademark on Space marines in terms of books. It seems because people did not find one in America that one hasn't existed in any other country. The fact was a English company with a European wide Trademark on Space marine in various areas since 1996, took action to defend its trademark as required by law so that its shareholders, the key interest of GW, again by law was not negatively impacted.

People just seem extremely offended that a company has acted under its legal requirement, even if the link was on the extreme end.

I don't think anyone is claiming they don't have a Trademark. What people are pointing out is they don't apply the way Games Workshop's attempt implied.

[DrLove42]

See my example still stands. You sya "Space Marine" is common in fiction.

How common would the word "scrolls" be in Fantasy? And yet when Mojang tried to make a game called "scrolls" Bethesda (maker of "The Elder Scrolls") moved to shut them down because they were similar words. Not trademarked. But similar words.

This case is more clear cut than that one was. And that was with American lawyers, not British ones.

[Caitsidhe]

See my example still stands. You sya "Space Marine" is common in fiction.

How common would the word "scrolls" be in Fantasy? And yet when Mojang tried to make a game called "scrolls" Bethesda (maker of "The Elder Scrolls") moved to shut them down because they were similar words. Not trademarked. But similar words.

This case is more clear cut than that one was. And that was with American lawyers, not British ones.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Several things:

1. I never heard of either game so I certainly can't get my hackles up about it if I never hear about it.
2. A video game is a specific product so there is much more leeway for this "possible" Trademark infringement.
3. I agree with you, "scrolls" is way too generic a word to try and cry foul over. I hope they got their butts kicked.

This isn't a case of American versus British. If the situation were reversed, I would be just as vocal about an American company trying to lay claim to certain words, ideas, and so on. So what was the outcome of the scroll silliness?