Defense Lines, Quad Guns, Kill Points, OH MY!

[The Dave]

I apologize ahead of time if these questions were answered already elsewhere but I could not find them.

1. Does having ONLY an Aegis Defense Line and/or Quad Gun left on the table count as "having a model on the table at the end of any game turn" for the purposes of determining if someone has automatically won/lost? I'm fairly certain the answer is yes, but I thought I'd ask here just in case.

2. If an opponent destroys the Quad Gun in an Aegis Defense Line, does that count as a unit (and thus a Victory Point) for Mission 2, "Purge the Alien"?
EDIT - As well as for any mission's First Blood Victory Point?

Thanks in advance guys!

[Nabterayl]

No, and no. In both cases the answer hinges upon the fact that an Aegis line and quad gun are simply battlefield debris - you pay points to be able to deploy them, but they are not in any sense "yours."

[jamesdean13]

Technically the quad gun is battlefield debris/model/unit as it meets the criteria for them all

[The Dave]

Thanks for the input Nabterayl and jamesdean13! And your answers are basically the opposite of each other, hence my question about whether defense lines count or not. I'm not 100% convinced either way yet, so I hope there's either something I missed or that it gets covered in an FAQ soon.

[jamesdean13]

Sorry I only half answered I became Sidetracked. With a Fortification I'm not sure who the owning player would be. As either player may use them. VP's are given to the owners opponent, same thing with first blood.

[Nabterayl]

A quad gun is unquestionably a model; James is right about that. The question is whether it's one of your
models, or you just paid to be able to deploy it. The rule book provides no real satisfactory answer to this, but I lean in favor of it belonging to nobody. It doesn't shoot on its own, and as James correctly points out, it can even be used by an enemy model against you. Those facts suggest to me that a quad gun does not count as yours, and thus cannot be used to satisfy the turn one off-the-table loss.

[SacredChao]

I always considered the Fortification slots to be purchasable terrain. Once it's on table, it's nobodies, just as a forest is not yours. Yes, it's part of your list, but it's still terrain. If you really want to dig into it, in the "normal" deployment order, you deploy fortifications, then each player deploys a piece of terrain at a time. Would each piece of terrain you put down count as yours? I don't see it as any different.

Another argument for the Victory Point answer. A Quadgun/Icarus is purchased as an upgrade to the Aegis Line, kind of like giving a vehicle sponsons. Does a destroyed sponson award a victory point for the vehicle? No, the entire thing must be destroyed. I don't know if this argument is necessary or valid, but there you go.

[jamesdean13]

I always considered the Fortification slots to be purchasable terrain. Once it's on table, it's nobodies, just as a forest is not yours. Yes, it's part of your list, but it's still terrain. If you really want to dig into it, in the "normal" deployment order, you deploy fortifications, then each player deploys a piece of terrain at a time. Would each piece of terrain you put down count as yours? I don't see it as any different.

Another argument for the Victory Point answer. A Quadgun/Icarus is purchased as an upgrade to the Aegis Line, kind of like giving a vehicle sponsons. Does a destroyed sponson award a victory point for the vehicle? No, the entire thing must be destroyed. I don't know if this argument is necessary or valid, but there you go.

One mistake there, bad example. The land raider is a unit while the defence line is not.
The sponsons are not units and therefore are not VPs.

The defence line is not a unit, the Gun is. When you kill a unit the opposing player earns a VP.

[Nabterayl]

To be sure, but who is the "opposing player" of a gun emplacement? It's not even clear that it has one, for the reasons we've all gone over.

[jamesdean13]

I'm not sure if it has one, however it does meet the requirements for first blood. So it's possible that for no one to get the extra point in the case of killing a quad gun.

I personally however lean towards the person that bought it as being the owner. Considering it can only be deployed on their board half IIRC. They can start out touching the gun in the D-zone and have access to it turn 1, they spent points on it and it's in there army comp.