Special Power "axes"

[EnglishInquisition]

@ Chris*ta- got to be another 5 pages at least in this one! Could break records!

@daboarder

[Tynskel]

Nah. It won't beat combat squads.

[daboarder]

Nah. It won't beat combat squads.

If your talking about the reserve thing that was also people not reading the rules correctly and sticking vehemently to their original notions regardless of what was correct.

[Chris*ta]

can you guys quote the entire parts of the rules you are basing your argument over. I haven't gotten my rule book yet as I have a leg infection and havent been able to walk since the drop of 6th. I ask this so I can understand what the argument is and what I am looking at with my own armies. For example my BT are able to purchase master crafted on quite a few weapons will this change how they work ... for example will a master crafted thunder hammer be double str and only ap3 since it is "unique". cause that would suck bad. this will affect weather I master craft the powe weapons that are axes for my BT's or not.

When I say quite a few I mean 4 per command squad pluss two for each pair of special characters pluss the EC so in a standard army 13.

thanks.

Okay, I don't have a copy of the BDAB either, but basically, they're are two paragraphs on p. 61 in the rules for power weapons.

The first says that if a power weapon has SPECIAL RULES then it is AP 3.

The second says that if a power weapon has no UNIQUE RULES then you look at the mini and decide what weapon it is: Sword, axe, maul, and (I think) lance.

Sword S As User I As User AP 3
Axe S User +1 I =1 AP 2
Maul S User +2 I As user AP 4
Lance (don't remember)

I might've made a mistake, they're not sure, please correct me someone who does have the book if wrong.

Basically, they're are two arguments on this.

Some people are saying that because Dante's axe has master crafted, you don't look at the mini and it's AP 3.

Others are saying that master crafted is not a unique rule (it's listed in the weapon USRs in 6th ed) that you should treat it as an axe. Although "unique rules" is not defined, they believe GW meant rules that change S, I and (in new codexes) AP.

I've put forward a compromise: That you can let the axe follow the rules for whatever weapon off the above list that you like, just discuss it with your opponent before the start of the game.

There's a whole lot of arguments on both sides that I can't be bothered summarising.

Hope that brings you up to speed on the battle so far. Please choose a side and start trolling

Regarding the weapons in your Black Templars, the Thunder Hammer is definitely "unique" -- it has rules in the BDAB, which are basically the same as 5th ed, except it has AP 2.

Regarding power weapons, my feeling is that GW intended for you to be able to have master crafted axes, swords, etc. as you wish.

Oh, and chaplains; most Codex FAQs have specified that their crozia count as power mauls.

[EnglishInquisition]

Nah. It won't beat combat squads.

Oh, that was a good one!
Notice how they've come to a ruling on that in the FAQ's- combat squad at the deployment so they count towards total unit count, but can now share the transport with their other half.
Exactly as Marines should be- well done on that one GW!

[Mesi]

Chris you're wrong, sorry. I will quote direct rules here as I have the rule book.

First off master-crafted is in the section of the book specifically labeled Special Rules along with many others. There is no argument, Master Crafted is a special rule.

Now for the first rule.

Power Weapons

A power weapon is sheathed in the lethal haze of a disruptive energy field that eats through armor, flesh and bone with ease.

Types of Power Weapons

Power weapons come in all shapes and sizes, but for the purposes of our game, we have four simple categories of power weapons: power axes, power mauls, power swords, and power lances.

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has: if it's a sword or dagger, it's a power sword; if it's an axe of halberd, it's a power axe; if it's a blunt weapons like a mace or staff, it's a power maul; if it's a spear or lance, it's a power lance.

(It then goes on to show the table with the specific attributes which in short are)

Sword - AP3 at initiative
Axe - AP2, +1 str, unwieldy (initiative 1)
Maul - AP4 +2 str, concussive
Lance - +1 str/AP3 on charge, and normal str/AP4 otherwise.

However pay attention to the conditional sentence. The first sentence. I'll repeat it just for emphasis.

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:

Master Crafted IS a further special rule. This means you do not look at the model the conditional sentence is not met. Which means it counts as a 'standard' power weapon which is simply ap3 at initiative.


Now we'll talk about what has everyone's panties in a twist. The


Unusual Power Weapons

Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.


Note the italicized sections are direct quotations from the book. No where at all does the rules state if it has no "unique" rules do you look at the model. Because if it has no unique rules then you simply follow the rules for power weapons. Which specifically state, if it has additional special rules. You do NOT look at the weapon. It defaults to AP3.

This really doesn't need to be a debate at all. The rules are perfectly clear. Trying to put a tag on rules as special or unique is completely irrelevant because no matter what you choose to classify them as. Special or Unique the rules say the same exact thing. It's an AP3 melee weapon.

People also point out the Codex mentions the Axe specifically to reference a unique weapon. People are arguing pointlessly about rather a unique 'weapon' means it has unique 'rules' and so it doesn't follow the unusual power weapons rule. Which honestly isn't relevant at all because the power weapons rule handles the situation in the first place. It's seriously people getting hung up on words that have no bearing on the rules. It's the same with Glaive Encarmine, Relic blade ect ect. Unless they FAQ the weapon, and it has any other rules other then being 'power weapon' it's AP3. End of story.

Now please, let this stupid pointless subject die. Because it's pretty cut and dry what the rules say.

[Chris*ta]

Not at all cut and dried -- 13 pages shows that!

The 1st section says SPECIAL RULES so Dante's axe shouldn't be covered there

The 2nd section says UNIQUE RULES and master crafted is not unique -- it's a USR, fercrissakes -- so Dante's axe shouldn't be covered there either.

So, it falls between the cracks.

I know, you'll argue that by UNIQUE RULES they meant SPECIAL RULES but that's not what they wrote, and a term that GW has never used to mean the same thing as special rules.

Hence, why I suggested that compromise above. Which, and I'm saying this in all caps not at you, but because people keep wanting to argue about it:
LET"S YOU TREAT DANTE"S AXE AS FOLLOWING THE SAME RULES AS A POWER SWORD IF YOU WANT.

I've already stated 3 possible reasons why the BA FAQ might not have discussed Dante's axe, so not going to discuss that further.

[Chris*ta]

Oh, that was a good one!
Notice how they've come to a ruling on that in the FAQ's- combat squad at the deployment so they count towards total unit count, but can now share the transport with their other half.
Exactly as Marines should be- well done on that one GW!

Unless they're in a drop pod, in which case they combat squad as they disembark from it.

Get it right
Or else we'll have to discuss it for another 13 pages too! :O

[Tynskel]

In 2nd Edition, Dante had a Power Axe.
In 3rd Edition, Dante had a Power Weapon, because GW got rid of all the power weapon specifics.
In 4th Edition, Dante's Power Weapon became 'master crafted'.
In 5th Edition, Dante has the Axe Mortalis.

[Tynskel]

In 2nd Edition, Dante had a Power Axe.
In 3rd Edition, Dante had a Power Weapon, because GW got rid of all the power weapon specifics.
In 4th Edition, Dante's Power Weapon became 'master crafted'.
In 5th Edition, Dante has the Axe Mortalis.