Black Templar in Codex Space Marines ?

[Anggul]

All it really needs is a little box in the Space Marines codex saying that they can have mixed Marine/Scout squads, an entry for the Emperor's Champion with the 'vows' and Fearless in Close Combat being their Combat Tactics replacement of choice.

Have Helbrecht and Grimaldus in the book and you're done.

[Firehead158]

All it really needs is a little box in the Space Marines codex saying that they can have mixed Marine/Scout squads, an entry for the Emperor's Champion with the 'vows' and Fearless in Close Combat being their Combat Tactics replacement of choice.

Have Helbrecht and Grimaldus in the book and you're done.

That's kind of a slap in the face though. There are lots of things besides that, that make the Black Templars. They have a few other special rules that regular marines can't get. Unless it gets changed, there cannot be any psykers allied with Black Templars, or in the Black Templars. Land Raider dedicated transports for just about everyone? Who else can get that? Two special weapons in terminator squads? Sword Brethren? The ability to buy a chaplain for each command squad, and it doesn't take up an additional HQ slot? Buying USRs for veteran units and command squads? There is enough that separates them from the other armies.

I'm all for a Codex Space Marines, that has sections for each individual chapter(including BA, SW, and DA), don't get me wrong. That would bring all the Space Marines armies in line with each other as far as rulesets and whatnot, but I don't think they should just get a tiny section that gives a few special rules to the BT, or any other chapter for that matter.

[dreadnaughtguy]

they should move to two marine books. Omni-codex Space Marine and an Omni-codex chaos space marine. they can put all the second founding/ renegade chapters/ legions in the two books. Any new "toys" they come up with inbetween codex release they can put into a WD with which "armies" can use it. This would shorten the release schedule and still allow for a huge "wave" release of marines.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

That's kind of a slap in the face though. There are lots of things besides that, that make the Black Templars. They have a few other special rules that regular marines can't get. Unless it gets changed, there cannot be any psykers allied with Black Templars, or in the Black Templars. Land Raider dedicated transports for just about everyone? Who else can get that? Two special weapons in terminator squads? Sword Brethren? The ability to buy a chaplain for each command squad, and it doesn't take up an additional HQ slot? Buying USRs for veteran units and command squads? There is enough that separates them from the other armies.

Stuff like "Two special weapons in termie squads" and veteran skills are just leftovers from the BT being an older 'dex. Even if they get updated as their own book, they'll lose those. Sword Brethren are very similar to vanguard, being close combat veterans.

You've managed to describe all of their differences in a paragraph - why couldn't a new Space Marine codex do the same thing? Don't call it a "slap in the face", this is toy soldiers we're talking about.

Just cut down on the over the top ultramarines fluff and we'll have plenty of space for fluff for the divergent chapters. Presumably the unit fluff for Chaplains and Crusaders would discuss the Templars heavily.

[gcsmith]

It's hardly fair that Templars ain't too divergent when every unique thing we get basically gets copied in other codex'

Give Templars something unique and keep it unique.

[Dave Bone]

Back to the original topic.

I always saw the Templars as the "Space Marines for beginners" army.

They were marines, were easy to paint (black), and kind of grew out of the old Armageddon campaign book. By fluff and divergance, they never made any sense. Sure they are divergant, but so are many more deserving 1st Founding chapters like the White Scars (bikers), Raven Guard (crafty-jump packs), and even the stoic machine-loving Iron Hands.

The problem for the Templars is that now GW has a new shiny marine army tailored for newbies to join the hobby. May I introduce you the the Grey Knights. With them in the game, the Templars kind of feel like a 5th wheel in the overall codex scheme.

I personally wouldn't be surprised to find them folded back into an omnibus Space Marine codex that details all the codex and first founding chapters and their successors. I'd be perfectly happy to have a few doctrines or traits given to each first founding legion, and place the Templars back to just being a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists.

Would you feel any sympathy to howls from Lamenter's players about needing their own codex after all?

All of this is Badwrong. They sold us this stuff as an army they were going to support. They even assured us they would, after the Eye of Terror armies got the axe. They need to stick by their sales model.

Also, BT weren't ever considered good for beginners. Or veterans.

Stuff like "Two special weapons in termie squads" and veteran skills are just leftovers from the BT being an older 'dex. Even if they get updated as their own book, they'll lose those. Sword Brethren are very similar to vanguard, being close combat veterans.

You've managed to describe all of their differences in a paragraph - why couldn't a new Space Marine codex do the same thing? Don't call it a "slap in the face", this is toy soldiers we're talking about.

Just cut down on the over the top ultramarines fluff and we'll have plenty of space for fluff for the divergent chapters. Presumably the unit fluff for Chaplains and Crusaders would discuss the Templars heavily.

Updating the codex is not the same as replacing it with a generic book. If the BT get it, SW/DA/BA better get the same treatment.

[LoreDraconis]

this is flawed. The iPad Codex is NOT a .pdf in the sense of a standardized pdf. This is an interactive book with nice index, videos, etc. GW put a lot of effort into the electronic version.

Fair enough, glorified E-book then, but that's more or less irrelevant to my argument. . Copying will only become more of an issue as time goes on. No one's going to bother authenticating your ipad app to verify it's authenticity, and you may just as well be looking at a pirated pdf. Once its digital all bets are off. So if they were smart, they would not just treat it as a book with extra bells and whistles, but do something like give you the app with some of the fluff, HQ and troops for free (yes, free), then charge you a small fee (say $2) for every additional model you wish you add to your reference. Add the ability to use it as an army-builder with auto points calculation and suddenly you have something that players will be throwing cash at. On top of that, if facilitates live updates and FAQs, so your book will never be out of date.

To me the digital version is still little more than a scanned rulebook with some bells and whistles added to justify the obscene pricetag.

k, im done

/offtopic

[Galadren]

What makes Templars unique is both fluff and mechanics:

No Tactical squads, Scout Squads, Devastator Squads, Librarians...we would need a page saying we can't use half of the codex if folded into Codex: Space Marines.

Fluff wise the chapter is more like a small Legion, with over 6,000 Marines spread across the galaxy and a refusal to follow the Codex Astartes. Yes, the Imperial Fists are a Codex adherent chapter, but they only became so after the Second Founding and the Templars leaving. There's now 10,000 years of history separating the two chapters.

Meanwhile, Codex adherent chapters like Dark Angels and Blood Angels get plenty of support with their own books. People argue "Black Templars aren't that divergent..." Well, by that logic neither of these other two chapters deserve their own books. A special character or two, a unique unit entry and those two are done. Space Marine Megabus everyone.

No? Your precious sparkly vampires and emo kids deserve their own books? So do mine.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Updating the codex is not the same as replacing it with a generic book. If the BT get it, SW/DA/BA better get the same treatment.

Sure! Dark Angels have very little codex divergent stuff anyways, and BA would be easily done. SW is a bit more difficult, but doable.

Plus, every "divergent" marines 'dex has the exact same selection of vehicles, give or take an upgrade here and a Baal there. That's a huge part of the 'dex there that's just cut&paste.

You sure you want the SW/BA treatment? :P I mean, Bloodfists, Blood Champions, Bloodstrike Missiles, Bloodshard ammo, Blood Talons etc. The Blood Angels got a new unit that was angelic and covered in blood drops, the Wolves got a unit riding giant wolves. These aren't exactly gripping developments.

No Tactical squads, Scout Squads, Devastator Squads, Librarians...we would need a page saying we can't use half of the codex if folded into Codex: Space Marines.

Sure you'd need a whole page? You just listed them all in less than two lines. "In a Black Templars army, Tactical Squads become Crusader Squads. They exchange Combat Tactics and Combat Squads for Righteous Zeal. A Crusader Squad may purchase up to Ten Neophytes at +x pts per model. Any model may exchange a Boltgun for a Chainsword."

Edit: It's worth adding that I *like* the Templars - when I was coming into the hobby it was a total toss-up between Templars and Chaos. Chaos won, but only just. Their "shooting me just makes me ANGRY" attitude and their mixed armour crusader squads are a fun theme. But I can still look at them and see that the things I like about them could be easily preserved if they're moved into the main C:SM.

I do not oppose such a move because they would lose nothing; I would support such a move because it would create more room for other developments in 40k, and speed up updates.

[Bigred]

You could come somewhat close to representing some of the Black Templars differences with the old SM codex doctrine system. Note with 6th, there are a few interesting USRs that seem to have Black Templars written all over them.

So does that mean:
1) They did that to make it easier to kick out a short and sweet White Dwarf or full codex.
2) they did it to more easily define them using a small set of USRs and fold them back into the SM codex?

In any case, GW never said they would never again invalidate a codex - they said they would never invalidate existing models. With the addition of a handful of special characters and some doctrines, they could fold them back in and preserve everyone's model collection. Sources say the new BT models have been on ice for over a year, just waiting for a release window.

Also for what its worth, I don't think GW would ever have the guts to fold them into the SM book - I'd look for a new BT Codex next year.