More Grim Dark! Less Political Correct!

[Renegade]

By the way, your poll is extremely manipulative. The option you don't agree with is phrased so that picking it seems unreasonably prudish and conservative,

Thats mainly because the arguments I have heard for making it less grimdark, is so that it offends less.

A decent parody should leave one asking moral questions, and questioning the morality of the parody. There is normally a line, but that line is the deference betwen depravity and immorality, imho. Even Chaplin managed to make light of Hitler, while exposing his ideals for what they were, or how about Dr Strangelove, life of brian?

[Kahoolin]

A decent parody should leave one asking moral questions, and questioning the morality of the parody. There is normally a line, but that line is the deference betwen depravity and immorality, imho. Even Chaplin managed to make light of Hitler, while exposing his ideals for what they were, or how about Dr Strangelove, life of brian?

That may be true, but you can't seriously be suggesting that silly, over-the-top Warhammer 40,000 has ever been intended as a morally instructive parody of totalitarianism? I'd like to hear some reasonable arguments to back that up. Seems to me it is just a wargame made in the 80s by some dudes who liked Judge Dredd, Tolkien and Dune and thought it would be cool to mix 'em all up and play toy soldiers with the result.

[Old_Paladin]

The thing I have noticed is that the majority of people that actually bother to write a comment think that the balance is fine.

So my question to all the "OMG, needz moar of the Grimdark nowz!!!" group is:
How is it going to become darker, without becoming stupid?
Except for the very poor arguement of 'boobs=grimdark' I've seen nothing.

[scadugenga]

1) Lame poll choices. Definitely skewed in the description.

2) The game's "grimmness" hasn't changed much in 20 years. If anything it's gotten darker. Read the fluff. So what if they changed the daemonettes?

3) The only "kid" age wargamers I see play 40k, not warmachine.

[cobra6]

I've also been around since 2nd ed., and I agree with those that say that the earlier editions weren't necessarily "grimdarder" than the current edition.

The orks? They were an army of clowns, intended to make you literally laugh out loud during the course of a game with their ridiculous and self-destructive antics. Every model even had a goofy, impish grin on it's face - even Gahzkull. That whole range has gotten much darker in both the models and the fluff, and that's a good thing.

Chaos? Remember the ooold Noise Marines? The ones that toted a guitar and looked (to quote another post somewhere on this site) like "an Ultramarine had a threesome with David Bowie and Def Lepard?" They were fantastic looking models, but grim or dark? Not even close. Even the old Chaos Champion models, many of which could cross-over between 40K and WFB, mixed some truly disturbing elements with an element of tongue-in-cheek humor, like how many of them were rocking metal "devils horns" with their hands.

That said, there was much less of a "good guy vs. bad guy" element in the fluff back then, in that there really were NO good guys, not even the Ultramarines. If a Space Marine saw a daemon, the whole company was mind wiped. If a Guardsman saw a daemon, the whole army was killed by the Inquisition, along with possibly the entire planet. The current "fluff" stories about Calgar teaming up with the Tau, and the Blood Angels teaming up with the Necrons (!?!?) would have ended in the SMs massacring their Xenos allies or dying in the attempt.

The old grimdark is still there if you want to find it, like the Slaanesh daemon pic that was included in the Liber Chaotica books (I'm not even sure I should describe it here on a "family website" but I'm sure a few folks know the picture I'm talking about.) That level of darkness and depravity is still there for the devoted and mature gamer who wants to find it (like me,) but I recognize that as a business, GW can't have that kind of stuff on pg. 2 of the rulebook or on a shelf where a sceptical parent is shopping for their 13 year old. If you want that level of grimdark in your army, buy the Nursemaid or do some conversions by all means, there's nothing stopping you.

[Kahoolin]

That said, there was much less of a "good guy vs. bad guy" element in the fluff back then, in that there really were NO good guys, not even the Ultramarines. If a Space Marine saw a daemon, the whole company was mind wiped. If a Guardsman saw a daemon, the whole army was killed by the Inquisition, along with possibly the entire planet. The current "fluff" stories about Calgar teaming up with the Tau, and the Blood Angels teaming up with the Necrons (!?!?) would have ended in the SMs massacring their Xenos allies or dying in the attempt.

Yeah, that's about the only thing I really miss from old fluff, the sense that every faction was evil in a different way and no-one had the moral high ground or any mercy. Made it a lot easier I think to justify battles in fluff too, you didn't get the creeping feeling that you are in the wrong you get now when your guardsmen massacre a bunch of Grey Knights or Tau

That level of darkness and depravity is still there for the devoted and mature gamer who wants to find it (like me,) but I recognize that as a business, GW can't have that kind of stuff on pg. 2 of the rulebook or on a shelf where a sceptical parent is shopping for their 13 year old. If you want that level of grimdark in your army, buy the Nursemaid or do some conversions by all means, there's nothing stopping you.

Good advice.

[Melissia]

I don't see how there's been PCness added in.

The thing is, it might appear that to someone who doesn't actually pay attention, sure. But the Imperium isn't sexist-- it's an equal opportunity oppressor. It oppresses women AND it oppresses men. Rounds both genders up and shoves them on a truck, gives them a lasgun and flak armor then points them at the enemy and says "shoot them or we'll shoot you".

And so on and so forth. It's not PC. It's grimdark.

[Vaktathi]

It's not that they've added anything to make it less Grimdark, it's that they tone it down. Look at the art and feel of the 3E SM stuff for example. Much more techy, spartan, and brutal than the newer SM stuff which is much more "knightly" and angelic. Stuff was more likely to have servo's, pipes and wires while newer stuff is more like furs, bling and huge icons. More "cleanse/purge/kill" previously while currently we get more "for the honor of blahblah and glory of derp!" At least, that's what I recollect. I could just be insane.

[cobra6]

@ Vaktathi: I hear you, and I think you are right about the change in Space Marine art dynamic from "dark tech" to "mad monk." However, in my personal opinion I find the newer look more "grimdark" than the old. I can relate more to a techy-looking Marine with pipes and wires, than I can to a guy festooned in boxes of bones, prayers, and a candle sitting on top of his head. I find the juxtaposition of the futuristic with the middle ages to be very sinister - essentially, "our future is the worst of our past" which really is a nightmare future.

Incidentally, if I remember correctly, 3rd Ed was the one where GW essentially decided to get rid of fluff altogether except for the shallowest of outlines, which I hated (I actually left the hobby for several years, rather than play Stratego in Space.) The art and write-up of the current BRB fluff is considerably grimdarker, IMO, than the previous edition anyway.

[Aldramelech]

An IG "Joy Division" camp might be the grimmest thing, replete with models of weeping thirteen year old girls, and grinning guardsmen offering them sweets as a "reward". I suppose we could also have a line of cocaine-addled child soldiers, forced to fight in the Emperor's name.

You really shouldn't describe the modern comp in such terms you know.........

Im sure there are NUT guidlines about this sort of thing.