Daemonhunters Wishlisting Thread

[Atrotos]

Honestly, I'd like to see Arbites in the codex, instead of IST... just to get some more variety in the game. Maybe keep the ISTs in as a Fast Attack (deep striking, or dedicated Valkyrie choice) or Elite slot, since they are a "cool" unit.

Why "instead of?" They could easily be the same entry with barring one or two different special rules and weapon options.

I'm still in the artificer armor camp, so all this balancing with power armor may be pointless.
Duke

I want to believe that all GK's will have Artificer (or "Anointed" or whatever) armor and some kind of invul. Sv. but where would that leave the Terminators? The entries would become too similar.

[DarkLink]

I want to believe that all GK's will have Artificer (or "Anointed" or whatever) armor and some kind of invul. Sv. but where would that leave the Terminators? The entries would become too similar.

We don't know anything about invulnerable saves, but we have had rumors of 2d6x3 shrouding. I'd take that over a measley 6++ any day. Or a 5++ for that matter. Being immune to virtually all shooting originating more than about 21" away is much better than a 5 or 6+ save.


If they go that route, then GKs will be all about local fire superiority. You'll have to get close to get to them, but as soon as you get close the GKs will absolutely hammer you. You'll have to be able to bring as much firepower to bear on the GKs before they're able to take your army apart piecemeal. An army like that is the Leafblower's worst nightmare.

[Mycroft Holmes]

• All vehicles may take Homing Beacons for a small points cost
• Any pure GK unit may Deep Strike (teleport)
• Dreadnoughts may use Deep Strike (teleport)
• GKT reduce scatter to avoid enemy models, but not impassible terrain/board edge
• Remove the Orbital Bombardment from the Heavy Support and give it to Brother Captains (just like Chapter Master version)
• Keep the interesting powers and allow them to affect all armies
• Terminators should benefit from True Grit
• Definitely keep Blessed Hull as a veh upgrade. Going to need it with Tyranid Zoanthropes, Dark Eldar and eventually Elder armies running around.

[DarkLink]

All vehicles may take Homing Beacons for a small points cost

Either this, or just have an army-wide build in homing beacon rule. You could say the GKs are able to home in on each other's psychic signature or something.

Any pure GK unit may Deep Strike (teleport)

Heck yea. Some mid-game teleportation would be awesome, too (gate of infinity).

[*]Dreadnoughts may use Deep Strike (teleport)

Drop Pods are for suckers.

[*]Keep the interesting powers and allow them to affect all armies

Right. No Chaos specific stuff, at least in terms of how the rules function. Or at most a few extra minor perks vs chaos, maybe some optional wargear. But we shouldn't have to spend points on abilities that are utterly worthless against 95% of the other armies in the game.

[*]Terminators should benefit from True Grit

I actually liked the solution of just giving everyone an extra attack. That way you don't have any fancy rules to memorize, and it works out the same in the end.

[*]Definitely keep Blessed Hull as a veh upgrade. Going to need it with Tyranid Zoanthropes, Dark Eldar and eventually Elder armies running around.[/LIST]

Actually, that's the BT blessed hull. DH blessed hull doesn't do any of this.

[MarshalAdamar]

Right. You can't just stick war gear options onto every single member of a squad and think that that is what a full unit should pay.

Now, go and compare GKs to Chaos Cult Troops. They're all similar in being Marines on steroids. And when you compare PAGK to them, you realize that GKs are indeed a bit too expensive compared to Berserkers and Plague Marines. Really, they're on par with TKsons and Noise Marines, both of which are a bit overpriced as well.

Personally, I would put GKs in their current incarnation at worth about 22pts per model. Remember, they lack lots of things like grenades, and their True Grit is just a much worse version of the Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW that Chaos Marines get. Shrouding is almost completely worthless. All they really get is Storm Bolters, Str 6 and WS 5, which is nice but not worth 25pts per model.

Now, on the other hand GKTs are just about right. Just give them the option to get the new THSSs for a reasonable price, and they're golden.

I do think that you have to look at the cost of the war gear if you were going to figure out the cost effectiveness of a unit.

But the point is I do agree with you on the broad strokes that you have to look at more than just the cost of the war gear they’re carrying and look at the unit as a whole and how it balances into the game.

I do think they should get the Krak and Frag grenades if they're missing that’s for sure.

I guess there are two camps, more expensive with better stats and War gear

OR

Less expensive over all but keep the same stats and the 3+ save, maybe get some new skills.

I like the idea of artificer armor but I think squads of 10 STR 6 WS 5 Uber marines with a 2+ save would be too much.

How many sanguinary guards can you take? Maybe use those as a template?

I say keep the 3+ save and all the other stats as they are. Make them 22 points. That’s only a decrease in the squad cost of 30pts.

Give them the option of teleporting onto the battle field for troops and get rid of the FA choice all together.

Further give them the option to take jump packs for 5 pts a model and allow them to use the decent of angel’s rules.
Not making them cooler war gear wise so much but getting some special rules that allow them to get where they need to be reliably, less chance to get battle cannoned to death if you teleport in!

[Mycroft Holmes]

I do think they should get the Krak and Frag grenades if they're missing that’s for sure.

Frag and Defensive grenades. GK are already str6 so no reason to take, or use, Krak grenades.

[Mycroft Holmes]

I actually liked the solution of just giving everyone an extra attack. That way you don't have any fancy rules to memorize, and it works out the same in the end.

Normally, GKT have 3 attacks on the charge and 2 after that.
Giving them 3 attacks base would make them 4 on the charge and 3 after that.
Giving them True Grit would give them 3 every turn.

I don't really think they need a 4 attack charge when they're firing storm bolters and assaulting at normal int with str 6 power weapons.

[DarkLink]

I do think that you have to look at the cost of the war gear if you were going to figure out the cost effectiveness of a unit.

Yeah, I'm just saying that wargear costs scale differently for units than for ICs/Sergeants. You can't compare GKs with Storm Bolters to a SM Sergeant Storm Bolter upgrade, you have to compare it to some other unit with storm bolters, like Terminators.

And ignore Sternguard Stormbolters. That upgrade is idiotic. Why would they make you pay 5pts for a stormbolter only to lose your best ability (Special ammo).

But the point is I do agree with you on the broad strokes that you have to look at more than just the cost of the war gear they’re carrying and look at the unit as a whole and how it balances into the game.

Right. I would compare GKs most closely to CSM Cult Troops, as they're fairly similar in being super-space Marines. I think the comparison puts PAGKs at about 21, maaaybe 22 pts per model under their current rules.

I do think they should get the Krak and Frag grenades if they're missing that’s for sure.

Well, offensive grenades anyways. And defensive grenades would be sweet, too. They don't specifically need frag/krak, because they're already str 6 so they can hurt vehicles anyways.

I like the idea of taking the Rites of Exorcism and turning it into this: "The Grey Knight's psychic presence is painful to their enemies, distracting their foes at critical moments. Grey Knights count as being equipped with offensive and defensive grenades."

I guess there are two camps, more expensive with better stats and War gear

OR

Less expensive over all but keep the same stats and the 3+ save, maybe get some new skills.

I like the idea of artificer armor but I think squads of 10 STR 6 WS 5 Uber marines with a 2+ save would be too much.

How many sanguinary guards can you take? Maybe use those as a template?

I think they should start with the current stats, at about 21pts per model, and add stuff to get to 25-30pts per model. Give them 2+ saves, 2d6x3 Shrouding, offensive and defensive grenades, and the ability to deepstrike and you're about 25 points, maybe a little more. I think that right there would be a solid baseline to start with.

Then from there, just play around with points and extra special rules, and see how they interact with the other units in the army. Then you'll end up with a powerful but balanced unit.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when you have such a small army, each individual model has to be crazy good to support the army as a whole. So Grey Knights might end up seeming underpriced and overpowered if you look at them individually, but then you realize there's only going to be 20 models in a 1500 point army and you realize that it all balances out.

I say keep the 3+ save and all the other stats as they are. Make them 22 points. That’s only a decrease in the squad cost of 30pts.

As I mentioned above, I would give them 2+ saves, 2d6x3 Shrouding, offensive and defensive grenades, and the ability to deepstrike. I think that would put them up to their current cost of 25pts per model, roughly.

Then playtest and see how that works out.

Give them the option of teleporting onto the battle field for troops and get rid of the FA choice all together.

Well, give every single model deepstrike, yes. However, the FA choice is an opportunity for a new unit. Think GKs with both Gate of Infinity and Heroic Intervention. That would be a totally awesome unit to play, especially with 2d6x3 shrouding. Very expensive, I'm sure, but it would feel perfect for GK Teleport Assault Squads.

Further give them the option to take jump packs for 5 pts a model and allow them to use the decent of angel’s rules.
Not making them cooler war gear wise so much but getting some special rules that allow them to get where they need to be reliably, less chance to get battle cannoned to death if you teleport in!

I wouldn't bother with jump packs. Just give them "deportation of angels" or something. Maybe only for Terminators and FAGKs, or whatever works for balance.

I don't really think they need a 4 attack charge when they're firing storm bolters and assaulting at normal int with str 6 power weapons.

It would work out more or less the same as if they gave GKTs True Grit. My point was that they should simply replace True Grit with +1 A, as that means one less rule to remember. Whether or not GKTs get it is a different matter.