Where did all the ladies go?

[therealjohnny5]

Ok at the risk of starting a flame war, in all seriousness i'm curious as to why we don't see much, in relation to quantity of written text, in reference to the women of the 41st millennium. Now this could obviously be for a couple of reasons (lets exclude all assumptions of male dominance and chauvinism, k?) that i can think of at least,

1) in general history shows us that there are mostly universal cultural tendencies to refer to the collection of humanity as masculine (i.e. mankind, man, etc) or gender neutral (i.e. humanity, humankind, etc.). Rarely are we or people referred to en mass as feminine. So we could conclude from this that when all the human inhabitants of the 41st millennium are referenced as a whole or large group, they are simply being referenced in general and masculine. Now this presents some issues to resolve if this is the case:
a) This idea fits when referring to the whole or groups at large, however it does little to answer the individual characters we see in the collected writings are all male, as are the armed forces seen in the stories.
b)This idea also gives tremendous credit to the creators and writers of 40K works in their creative planning and execution through numerous different publication sources in developing a cohesive logic behind even the expressions of the created world. And i find that highly unlikely considering the contradictions we've seen in numerous places.

2)Another reason the prevalence of male gender inhabitants could be that in the list of stories, fiction, tales, movies, and whatnot most heroes are male. Mind you before you go crazy about the long list of female heroes out there, lets be honest and admit that the list for male and female protagonist hero characters in all of literature and film (especially scifi and fantasy) don't come close to matching each other in length. Ok i can buy this idea to some degree, now where's the problem here?
a) This can account for the protagonists in our stories, however it does nothing to address the mass of males that make up the entire Space Marine Legion, the collective military of the Imperial Guard, and such.

The only concentrated evidence we have of 41st millennial women are the battle sisters, and they can even be seen as an extremest group by some in relation to the entire imperial culture. So the question is where are all the ladies? Ok i can buy that they aren't written by male authors often in general anyway and much less in a grim dark future of 40k, however they should at least show up in the social structures right? We have a theoretically integrated military force here in the US, so shouldn't there be women in the IG? There are some written examples of planetary defense forces or Arbites as women but i can only think on a couple.

If cultural lines of 40k are so grayed bc of violence that race is looked at based on what "unsociable and excessively violent world" you were recruited from, no longer on simple race (and this is a necessity when writing on a large scale that covers galaxy, things have to get smaller), then it seems that gender would also be grayed as well. That being assumed (and that women aren't being protected as "breeders" which there is no evidence for -thank God) then it's only natural to assume that women would be members of the military forces through out all the Imperium, right?

So there should be a female element to military forces. And it would be significant in number if the ratios of male to female hold true still in the 41st millennium. All things considered if we are talking deployed forces of military on the scale of millions in one conflict, then everyone who could hold a weapon would be recruited, in times of crisis anything goes, so women would be inducted and recruited just like men. (Again unless some sort of "save women" plan was put into effect, which there is no evidence to.) So at least a quarter on the conservative side should be women.

This would go beyond the IG, Arbites, and Planetary defense forces. The Battle Sisters excluded from this discussion bc in comparison to the masses of other military forces out there, their number is far too low to be the "Oh all the women are Sisters" answer. And this does bring reasonable question (No flaming please!!) then to why are all space marines male? They are implanted with the gene-seed so it can't be that they are genetic clones of the emperor. In theory only the primarchs have any legitimate reason to be male. So if a woman could make the cut to become a space marine, and i'm sure in all this time at least one could have, then where is she?

Now keep in mind that all of these thoughts require that we take into consideration we are talking about a fictional world that is being detailed to us by writers. As one who is working on his own first full novel, i came into realization that when describing the fantastic or a different culture than any we know, we are limited by our understanding of the real and tangible world around us, and therefore can only use the things we know to describe the fantastical. The same experience is encountered frequently in theological studies. We try and define the infinite in tangible and finite terms. So we automattically limit some of our abiility to describe things adequately...but that's almost beginning to sound like a tangent...so point being as a writer you are required to either describe things so your reader can understand it using words they are familiar with (which can sometimes leave moments that don't quite fit in the realm of your story) or to create something new and then have to explain to the reader what that new something means and help them understand it in light of the fictional world. Hence the possible simplification of people to the male gender.

Please if it's possible as far as you are concerned this is a legitimate question i'm curious about and am not interested in flaming or trolls, though i do feed one occasionally that lives under a bridge near my apartment, but it's a nice troll. He only gets cranky when he's hungry, and i can relate, that whole blood sugar thing and get ya if you're not looking...so if you can't write something nice, just shout at your computer screen...thanks.

[eldargal]

Most of it boils down to male authors writing for a male audience (not a criticism, just a fact). A few points though:

There are all female and mixed gender Imperial Guard regiments, the number varying from world to world. Half of the Cadian IG should be female as it explicitly mentioned that the entire population is mobilised for war.
The number of SoB could well be much higher than the fluff states. There may only be 10-20k sisters in each of the major orders but for all we know the Ecclesiarchy could maintain thousands of minor orders on its worlds with 1-2 thousand sisters in each. It would make sense for the largest and most powerful institution in the Imperium to do this. The idea that the Ecclesiarchy would have fewer troops inthe entire galaxy than the Papal States on earth maintained is absurd, we aren't dealing with genetically modified superhumans afterall, just women.
The male-only Space Marine thing is based on a line in the fluff which states that the implants are reliant on male-only hormones, which do not exist. Put it down to loss of knowledge by the Apothecarium.

It would be nice to have a discussion on this subject which doesn't devolve into 'want moar bewbs/don't want moar bewbs' as is so often the case. Well done on setting the tone in your post.

[Old_Paladin]

Well, to anwser some of your questions.
We do see (or at least hear about) female in the Guard. For example, in Gaunts Ghosts. The original Tanth had cultural rules the forbid females in the military. However, when they took in the Vergast recrutes a significant percentage were woman (which the Tanth took a while to adjust to).

There are many high ranking Inqusitors (or members of their retinue), even a small number of female commissars (although it is stated that the woman that do so are considered especially hardline, because of the male dominated field).

I believe that some of the fluff also talks about all female guard regiments.



Ultimately, things in the 40k universe are the way they are, because of how real-life modern western society is. There are still a lot of things that society still divides into masculine and feminine; the military is a clear example. While women are allowed to join, it is still viewed as a very masculine field, and the majority of soldiers are men.
Likewise, tabletop miniature wargamers are a strong majority male; which means that the escapist fantasies are aimed at what men might be able to project upon (ie. hyper-masculine men as the leads, doing ultra-manly things with their guy buddys, which may or may not be to impress the occasonal female seondary characters).

[Lane]

There were several female characters in Titanicus. They ranged from Mechanicus, upper class merchant and Princeps in training to lowly PDF troopers. Their attitude and abilities also varied widely as well. Overall they were well portrayed.

There are several factors that may explain why the military is largely male.

Choice - even if all citizens are required to train for military service it could be that men are more likely to chose it as an occupation. Since Imperial troop levies tend to draw from PDF forces first you would get more males. Gangs are another source for troop levies. Again males are more likely here, at least among those that get rounded up.

Physical - males tend to be larger and stronger and aggressive than females. OTOH females tend to have better endurance, long term metabolic efficiency and determination. If Guard induction includes simple physical tests and physical stat checks then they may exclude many potential good soldiers.

Occupational service exclusions - certain skilled workers may be exempt from the draft. IIRC the Soviet Union had a fairly widespread view that women were better at math and science, men better at creative endeavors. Due to physical factors men may also be forced into more menial jobs. Women in the 40k setting could provide a disproportionate number of technical jobs thus exempt from the draft.

Selective Birth - Societal values and population pressure may dictate that more males be born. If mortality rates are low the need for new births is also low. Since a single woman can have many children you do not need as many women. You could easily have a stable population with only 20-25% females and still ship off 10-20% of the population to the guard.

[therealjohnny5]

Most of it boils down to male authors writing for a male audience (not a criticism, just a fact). A few points though:

There are all female and mixed gender Imperial Guard regiments, the number varying from world to world. Half of the Cadian IG should be female as it explicitly mentioned that the entire population is mobilised for war.
The number of SoB could well be much higher than the fluff states. There may only be 10-20k sisters in each of the major orders but for all we know the Ecclesiarchy could maintain thousands of minor orders on its worlds with 1-2 thousand sisters in each. It would make sense for the largest and most powerful institution in the Imperium to do this. The idea that the Ecclesiarchy would have fewer troops inthe entire galaxy than the Papal States on earth maintained is absurd, we aren't dealing with genetically modified superhumans afterall, just women.
The male-only Space Marine thing is based on a line in the fluff which states that the implants are reliant on male-only hormones, which do not exist. Put it down to loss of knowledge by the Apothecarium.

It would be nice to have a discussion on this subject which doesn't devolve into 'want moar bewbs/don't want moar bewbs' as is so often the case. Well done on setting the tone in your post.

Thanks Eldargal, I too would like a productive conversation about the topic. As for the SM hormone thing, i'm not sure how i've missed this piece of critical information, but even with that being said, it seems a little ludicrous that not once in the gajillion years that everyones been around that not a single woman would have made it into the mix or at least been experimented with the possibility, or am i crazy on that? Especially in a time of crisis, and if the "entire galaxy is burning" isn't a crisis i don't know what is.

ultimately i agree that the major consideration here is that male writers are driving a ship full of primarily male readers who want to see stuff blow up and get smashed. I can speak as one of them, i typically read for the mental escapism and imaginative stimulation, so while i prefer a gripping story that's well written and engages more than my testosterone production (i could just go watch the Expendables on repeat if i wanted that) i admittedly don't look for too much from the black library or fluff, just a light read most of the time. I find other writers works fill the heavier reading role for me. but there i go digressing again...silly ADHD that i was never diagnosed with...

back to the writing concept, i just fell like if a balanced and well thought out work was being presented, then a coherent culture or universe would be represented in it. And part of a normal culture is women taking part in life, and if as the Old Paladin says, these writing mimic western culture than would equal rights and the prevalence of women be a no brainer? even younger children on the front lines would be seen.

Lets think rationally about this, if the world and galaxy that we know had deteriorated into war and your entire planet is basically a combatant production center, you and everyone you know likely loses their individuality and ultimate value is only found in sacrifice for the emperor, and that's undermined by the fact that you're just a faceless corpse at the end of the day among a million others, and thats only from your home planet. So that being said, the Imperial society would be forced to enlist men, women, and children. So if that's the case why don't the writers of the novels and the manual fluff, not incorporate this simple truth into the writings?

Do you think it's so undesirable for the average consumer of this game (which isn't just teens obviously) to be presented with at least a female SC in a codex, that's not a slut, or part of an all female army? Or perhaps bring in a writer who is comfortable in writing women and then develop a novel around a strong female protagonist?

Well, to anwser some of your questions.
We do see (or at least hear about) female in the Guard. For example, in Gaunts Ghosts. The original Tanth had cultural rules the forbid females in the military. However, when they took in the Vergast recrutes a significant percentage were woman (which the Tanth took a while to adjust to).

There are many high ranking Inqusitors (or members of their retinue), even a small number of female commissars (although it is stated that the woman that do so are considered especially hardline, because of the male dominated field).

I believe that some of the fluff also talks about all female guard regiments.



Ultimately, things in the 40k universe are the way they are, because of how real-life modern western society is. There are still a lot of things that society still divides into masculine and feminine; the military is a clear example. While women are allowed to join, it is still viewed as a very masculine field, and the majority of soldiers are men.
Likewise, tabletop miniature wargamers are a strong majority male; which means that the escapist fantasies are aimed at what men might be able to project upon (ie. hyper-masculine men as the leads, doing ultra-manly things with their guy buddys, which may or may not be to impress the occasonal female seondary characters).

I understand really what i think we are boiling down to is writing theory or at least writing methodology. The creative process had not been developed and the cultural interactions and practices weren't completely or at least thoroughly thought through at the start of things, and now we have a constantly evolving world that the game takes place in. i can see the challenge that could present.

[WereWolf_nr]

I think Eldargal's post really hits the point. Male authors writing for a male audience.

That being said, I think more recent works have put more emphasis on the females. Ciphas Cain series (mixed guard regiment, female Inquisitor), Purgation Corps (mixed Stromtroopers and Sisters of Battle), and a new series with a female Arbite lead come to mind.

Oddly, GW doesn't have any (current) female Guard models; while having female Tau and Eldar models.

[Old_Paladin]

Well, in responce to some of your questions.
Just because we have laws about gender equality (and many other equalities) doesn't mean we have an enlightened social mindset to allow the most/best results from said laws.
The sad fact is that things like sexism and racism still exist (they just often aren't as bad as they were 50 years ago). It's also hard to overcome 100,000 years of hardcoded DNA that makes males not want to see females hurt or killed (as it's been said before, humanity would still be fine with a very low male population).

As for the 'total war' situation of the 40k universe, most of the fluff is coming around to the fact that realistically, a huge majority of the population live pretty normal lives as farmers, desk clerks, miners, merchants, factory workers, etc.
Things wouldn't be in a state much different then the Allied Nations durning the Second World War.

[AirHorse]

I think Eldargal's post really hits the point. Male authors writing for a male audience.

That being said, I think more recent works have put more emphasis on the females. Ciphas Cain series (mixed guard regiment, female Inquisitor), Purgation Corps (mixed Stromtroopers and Sisters of Battle), and a new series with a female Arbite lead come to mind.

Oddly, GW doesn't have any (current) female Guard models; while having female Tau and Eldar models.

Actually Ive got a female catachan with a grenade launcher :P Shes actually being used as part of my necromunda gang or as part of my inquisitors retinue, but none the less she is a female guard model

[Grailkeeper]

I've done some thinking about this

All of the female guard models are metal- rocket girl, warrior woman, Tona Criid, the catachan grenadier and the female commissar. There are no plastic guardswomen that I am aware of.

The Reason for this imho is to do with the interchangeabilty of parts on the plastic sprues. With a sprue of plastic pieces for warriors of one gender all the parts can be used in combination with each other to create a model human. However if two genders are catered for this is not going to be the case. The arms and possibly the legs maybe interchangeable but the heads and torsos will not. So if a plastic sprue is created with both genders its going to cut down the possible variety significantly- ie this part is for this model etc- which seems slightly contrary to the philosophy of plastics.

In the case of eldar this is possible to have both genders depicted on the same sprue as they are slimmer and more androgenous than humans and for the most part the heads are enclosed helmets so the facial features can't be seen. the only way it would be possible to tell if a model is female is by the torso anyway. The female torsos are interchangeable with the rest of the eldar kit.

This still doesn't explain why GW doesn't create an all female squad for guard, but if they were to make more female models as line infantry to match the fluff it would have to be through an all female squad imho.

[therealjohnny5]

I've done some thinking about this

All of the female guard models are metal- rocket girl, warrior woman, Tona Criid, the catachan grenadier and the female commissar. There are no plastic guardswomen that I am aware of.

The Reason for this imho is to do with the interchangeabilty of parts on the plastic sprues. With a sprue of plastic pieces for warriors of one gender all the parts can be used in combination with each other to create a model human. However if two genders are catered for this is not going to be the case. The arms and possibly the legs maybe interchangeable but the heads and torsos will not. So if a plastic sprue is created with both genders its going to cut down the possible variety significantly- ie this part is for this model etc- which seems slightly contrary to the philosophy of plastics.

In the case of eldar this is possible to have both genders depicted on the same sprue as they are slimmer and more androgenous than humans and for the most part the heads are enclosed helmets so the facial features can't be seen. the only way it would be possible to tell if a model is female is by the torso anyway. The female torsos are interchangeable with the rest of the eldar kit.

This still doesn't explain why GW doesn't create an all female squad for guard, but if they were to make more female models as line infantry to match the fluff it would have to be through an all female squad imho.

true, and not to devolve to a modeling only discussion, i have to agree with Mel when she has talked in previous threads that a woman in SM armor or Carapace armor is mostly going to indistinguishable from a man. Especially at 30mm levels. lol So i doubt it'd be too drastic of a difference. Though i am more interested in the fluff presentation of women in the 41st millennium. I'm glad to hear that there is a growing mix of things coming out in the books (i'm behind on my reading apparently),.

As a writer i have a number of female characters in my current story, i wonder if some men simply have a difficult time writing women? i have the advantage of a writers group to help balance me out as well as my wife who i can draw from experience with, or at least ask when i'm unsure.