CSM 1850p Tournament list - Help me crush the Imperial dogs! :-)

[Sooller]

Hi Folks,

In a few weeks we have a tournament at my local game store. So I am preparing a new list that needs to be competitive and I'll be facing mostly SW, BA, CSM and IG.

I would appreciate any suggestions to improve my current list.

- Daemon Prince (MoS, Wings, Lash) = 155p
- Daemon Prince (MoS, Wings, Lash) = 155p
- 3x Terminators (3x Combi-weapon w/ melta) = 105p
- 7x Plague Marines (Plague Champion, PF, icon, 2x meltaguns) + Rhino = 261
- 7x Plague Marines (Plague Champion, PF, icon, 2x meltaguns) + Rhino = 261
- 7x Plague Marines (Plague Champion, PF, icon, 2x meltaguns) + Rhino = 261
- 3x Obliterators = 225p
- 3x Obliterators = 225p
- Predator = 70p
- 10x Summoned Lesser Daemons = 130

Total: 1848 points

Thanks in advanced and dead to the false emperor !

**update**
- Added reaper / dropped 1 combi from Terminators
- Replaced power first with power weapon and added an icon for Plague marine squad 1 & 2
- Dropped Champ & power first for Plague marine squad 3
- Added Daemonic Possession to Vindicator

**update 2**
- Went back to 3x combi with melta
- Went back to PF for PM and upgraded 3rd squad of PM
- Dropped Vindicator
- Dropped Greater Daemon
- Added Lesser Daemons
- Added Predator

Total points dropped to 1848.

[erwos]

Vindicators don't work reliably, even if I do love them, and they are utterly worthless without daemonic possession. Dump it.

Give out some personal icons so your Obliterators and Terminators are able to DS without scattering.

I would suggest a Reaper autocannon for your terminators. It can kill transports, and it's more reliable than a couple of single-shot meltas. IMHO, the Reaper is a rather under-rated weapon this edition.

If you have enough leftover points, maybe a squad of lesser daemons?

[Tynskel]

reaper is a good choice.

watch out for being 8 points over-- most tournies, that is a big no no.

[the jeske]

your poping an asp plague marine with a fist to get a GD, that makes no sense.

single vindicators dont work at all, something like a vindicator wihout demonic possesion does not exist . even if you take 3 vindis they are still bad tanks for chaos . slow[one turn down time on countering stuff] low armor , single weapon. I would even run preds over vindicators and that is saying something.

[Sooller]

Vindicators don't work reliably, even if I do love them, and they are utterly worthless without daemonic possession. Dump it.

Give out some personal icons so your Obliterators and Terminators are able to DS without scattering.

I would suggest a Reaper autocannon for your terminators. It can kill transports, and it's more reliable than a couple of single-shot meltas. IMHO, the Reaper is a rather under-rated weapon this edition.

If you have enough leftover points, maybe a squad of lesser daemons?

first of all thanks for your suggestions.

Good point I should try to work in DP for the Vindicator. Probably gonna drop a PF or 2 of the plague champ.

The terminators are the only unit that I will use to DS, and I will probably deploy all oblits from start. But I could consider some icons. Mm interesting idea on the reaper ... I will consider that :-).

[Sooller]

your poping an asp plague marine with a fist to get a GD, that makes no sense.

single vindicators dont work at all, something like a vindicator wihout demonic possesion does not exist . even if you take 3 vindis they are still bad tanks for chaos . slow[one turn down time on countering stuff] low armor , single weapon. I would even run preds over vindicators and that is saying something.

The main idea behind the heavy supports (vindi / oblits) is to spam AP2 templates on units that have been lashed into a group hug.

would it be better to drop the vindicator and take another 2 oblits ? so in total 8 oblits (3 - 3 - 2) .

[erwos]

your poping an asp plague marine with a fist to get a GD, that makes no sense.

single vindicators dont work at all, something like a vindicator wihout demonic possesion does not exist . even if you take 3 vindis they are still bad tanks for chaos . slow[one turn down time on countering stuff] low armor , single weapon. I would even run preds over vindicators and that is saying something.

As usual, the_jeske speaks wisely. A single Vindicator is basically a cry for every long-range anti-tank weapon your opponent has to demolish it. If it makes it past turn one, you will be incredibly lucky. The only way I can ever make mine survive is to give the opponent something even tougher and more dangerous to shoot (namely, a LR full of assault terminators).

Appealing as those demolisher templates are, just one of them is not a reliable way to kill anything, especially when you're limited to 24" of range. I generally find I get one or two shots off with mine (at best!), and then all the good targets are too near my own guys to risk a scatter.

I personally find that Obliterators deep-striking on icons are a BRUTAL combination. Chaos icons are cheap and plentiful - and you can use them in vehicles.

[eagleboy7259]

Obliterators are basically worthless IMOP if you don't deepstrike them into melta range, and even then I believe they are very meh for their points. 75pts for what a 2 wound terminator with a powerfist? No thanks, I'd rather just have two terminators and buy something decent in my heavy support selection. Your best bets are probably either the Predator set up with and Auto Cannon & Side Lascannons at 130pts or a Defiler with Close Combat Weapons. Since you're going termicide and Lash, I would pick the Predators over the Defilers just because you're more of a ranged list. Really every unit in your army is capable of taking down tanks, so I wouldn't really worry too much about armor.

[blackarmchair]

As per the vindicator, if you must keep it hold it in reserves (as it has a short range anyway) until such time that it can move 6" in and fire on a nicely lashed target.

Alternatively you may consider spider-tank (Defiler)? It has a very long-range and has a cc role as well. It can fill in for the vindi and is generally thought of as less of a target than anything with a demolisher cannon...

just an idea.

[erwos]

Obliterators are basically worthless IMOP if you don't deepstrike them into melta range, and even then I believe they are very meh for their points. 75pts for what a 2 wound terminator with a powerfist?

I used to be like you. I didn't think Obliterators were all that amazing. I mean, I can shoot more times a turn with my Havoc squad, with more wounds to boot. OK, the Havocs aren't as flexible, but lascannons and missile launchers can shred anything, given time. Or I could just take a cheaper Predator Annihilator.

Then, I bought a squad of Obliterators and took them in a game. May the four ruinous powers of Chaos forgive me for my heresy, for I was wrong about Obliterators. Completely wrong.

When you properly outfit your army with icons, Obliterators become the deep-strike support from hell. Unlike most DS units, when they land (no scatter within 6" of an icon!), they can actually carry out their primary function: killing damn near anything with ranged fire. If I land near terminators or MEQs, I can hose them down with plasma cannons or TL-plasma guns. If I land near a vehicle, I can pop it with multi-meltas or TL-meltaguns (if I'm close enough). Too close to a horde? Twin-linked flamers and plasma cannons to the rescue. And, if I'm near nothing, I've got lascannons to snipe with. There is almost no situation, IMHO, where they cannot contribute something very useful to the game.

They aren't perfect. They cost a lot, as you've noted. They're a little slow, so they often tend to wind up staying where they touch down. And, of course, they're not awesome in assault (although their 2+ save and power fists give them at least a bit of a chance of tying stuff up for a while). But on the board, they simply shine, and it's no shock that so many tournament Chaos armies include a lot of them.

I still think the Vindicator is meh, and you'd do better with a squad of lesser daemons and beefing up that third PM squad.