Blood Angel Vehicle Issues

[Bigred]

The lack of Fireports and Access Points is somewhat of a puzzler.

Do you play RAW, or assume they have them and it was an oversight?

[chromedog]

If you go up against a RAW lawyer, you're boned.

At least until it explodes and they can get out.

Most gamers I know just play it as a normal rhino, but we're hardly hard-core tournament gamers.
(we play in tourneys, but going hard for the podium or going home is not part of our ethos. )

[Nabterayl]

I assume they have them. And as a lawyer, people who argue that part of a codex always was useless (e.g., transports that nobody can get into) and call it "rules lawyering" offends me

[Craz]

As a BA player, I assume I do...considering otherwise, it's a pretty useless thing. I don't find myself using fire points that often, and no one at my FLGS is going to be that much of a douche that I have to have to wait for my Rhino to get destroyed for my DC to disembark.

[Greeny]

I think there are a couple of ways around it.

Firstly, the rulebook says to assume that any vehicle that doesnt state its number of fire points in its entry, counts as having 1 firepoint. So youd lose out on one from the rhinos normal 2 fp, but gain one on the razorback (this is if push came to shove and they claimed you could use none on your rhino).

Secondly, the rulebook also states that any vehicle capable of carrying troops will have the number of access points listed in its entry. Since none of the BA vehicle entries do have a listing of access points, it contradicts this rule, so you are free to make a reasonable conclusion that the visible access points on the vehicle are the same as those on the codex spacemarines variants, as is stated in the first rules entry of the rulebook under the most important rule!.

[Majorcrash]

I think there are a couple of ways around it.

Firstly, the rulebook says to assume that any vehicle that doesnt state its number of fire points in its entry, counts as having 1 firepoint. So youd lose out on one from the rhinos normal 2 fp, but gain one on the razorback (this is if push came to shove and they claimed you could use none on your rhino).

Secondly, the rulebook also states that any vehicle capable of carrying troops will have the number of access points listed in its entry. Since none of the BA vehicle entries do have a listing of access points, it contradicts this rule, so you are free to make a reasonable conclusion that the visible access points on the vehicle are the same as those on the codex spacemarines variants, as is stated in the first rules entry of the rulebook under the most important rule!.

Yea what he said

[Dingareth]

Secondly, the rulebook also states that any vehicle capable of carrying troops will have the number of access points listed in its entry. Since none of the BA vehicle entries do have a listing of access points, it contradicts this rule, so you are free to make a reasonable conclusion that the visible access points on the vehicle are the same as those on the codex spacemarines variants, as is stated in the first rules entry of the rulebook under the most important rule!.

While I agree with you in that Rhino are transports, even for those dirty heritic Blood Angles, I couldn't disagree more with your logic.

The BRB says all transports will have access points listed in their entry
BA Rhinos have no access points listed
Therefore, since they do not have access points listed (like all transports do) than it is perfectly reasonable to assume that they are not transports.

It’s also perfectly reasonable to call me a tool for claiming this, but the logic stands even if it is so far off the intent of the game.

[johnny_trash]

Anyone who RAWs this is a bad gamer IMHO. It's called a Rhino, just use the rules from the newest Vanilla Marines codex. If anyone in casual play challenges it, just talk to them about it.

[Greeny]

While I agree with you in that Rhino are transports, even for those dirty heritic Blood Angles, I couldn't disagree more with your logic.

The BRB says all transports will have access points listed in their entry
BA Rhinos have no access points listed
Therefore, since they do not have access points listed (like all transports do) than it is perfectly reasonable to assume that they are not transports.

It’s also perfectly reasonable to call me a tool for claiming this, but the logic stands even if it is so far off the intent of the game.

Except that the BA codex states that they can transport 10 models. Its one thing to assume something isnt a transport when nothing is stated, eg. a rhino entry with no listing of how many models it can carry. But its a completely different thing to assume something when it clearly states otherwise. As the codex lists the BA Rhino under the Transport Vehicles heading, and then lists the number of troops it can take, it clearly is a transport, so theres no real way to assume otherwise.

If you combine this with the standard rulebooks listing which states that all transport entries will have access points listed, you then have a transport vehicle entry that has its access points accidentally omitted, as opposed to a normal vehicle that has accidentally been listed under transport vehicles, that accidentally has the number of models it can carry listed, that accidentally is almost exactly the same as the vanilla SM equivilant, that also accidentally states it cant carry models in terminator armour (you know, as it isnt a transport anyway). Which then means that you have a contradiction of rules, which means again you go back to the 'most important rule', and when you consider all these facts, its obvious which side the argument sways towards (very strongly).

[Exlorn]

Except that the BA codex states that they can transport 10 models. Its one thing to assume something isnt a transport when nothing is stated, eg. a rhino entry with no listing of how many models it can carry. But its a completely different thing to assume something when it clearly states otherwise. As the codex lists the BA Rhino under the Transport Vehicles heading, and then lists the number of troops it can take, it clearly is a transport, so theres no real way to assume otherwise.

If you combine this with the standard rulebooks listing which states that all transport entries will have access points listed, you then have a transport vehicle entry that has its access points accidentally omitted, as opposed to a normal vehicle that has accidentally been listed under transport vehicles, that accidentally has the number of models it can carry listed, that accidentally is almost exactly the same as the vanilla SM equivilant, that also accidentally states it cant carry models in terminator armour (you know, as it isnt a transport anyway). Which then means that you have a contradiction of rules, which means again you go back to the 'most important rule', and when you consider all these facts, its obvious which side the argument sways towards (very strongly).

No one has ever tried to pull this BS on my Angels before, but I want this guy around if they do.