Local Tournaments are getting weird

[DarkLink]

I would say he should include major/minor losses, because there can be a big difference there. To be honest, I like the 'ard boyz battlepoint setup, which is only very slightly more complicated than yours. The only thing tricky about 'ard boyz is the weird scenarios.

[Shavnir]

From the sound of all the commotion I might be tempted to ask my LGS if I can have one of his tournement sheets to make a PDF out of so other stores can use it. Its very simple and basic.

Round 1 seize ground
Round 2 Capture and control
Round 3 Annihilation

Major Victory - 5 points
Minor Victory - 3 points
Draw - 1 point
Loss - 0

There are some secondary objectives he will throw in like take out the enemy HQ for 1 point or destroy most expensive unit for 1 point and everything is cleary defined as to what he means by major, minor, and draw. As well as defining the meanings for the secondary objectives. He does this so that he is the rules lawyer and you are playing by his rules.

There are no soft scores, no painting, no sportsmanship. If you think your opponent was a bad sport or had a well painted army then its up to you to be the adult and tell him.

Have you tried running a simple 1-0 scoring system? 1 point for a win, 0 points otherwise, pair based on Strength of Schedule (sum of opponent's scores).

[DarkLink]

Unless you can get in 5 or more games, then that will probably just result in a bunch of ties. In fact, it almost certainly will.

If you go by only win/loss totals, then you need to be able to fit in a bunch of games so you can separate out the scores. If you can't get in that many games, then you're going to have a more involved scoring system.

[Shavnir]

Unless you can get in 5 or more games, then that will probably just result in a bunch of ties. In fact, it almost certainly will.

If you go by only win/loss totals, then you need to be able to fit in a bunch of games so you can separate out the scores. If you can't get in that many games, then you're going to have a more involved scoring system.

Yep, its a binary log to tell you how many rounds you'd need. For a 32 person tourney you'd need 5 rounds. Is that so unreasonable?

[DarkLink]

Well, it depends on the game size.

Locally, we've done several small points tournaments with that exact same layout, playing 5-7 games.

However, if you're doing a 2000pt tournament, you probably won't have time for that many games. That may or may not be a problem.

Just for reference, my 3 games of 'ard boys went from about 1100 to 1900 hours. That's about 8 hours for 3 games, give or take an hour. I don't remember the exact start and finish times. It also includes a 45 minute lunch break.

[BlacknightIII]

Again these are three round tournements done at my store which usually has about 6 or 7 tables of 40k during the tournements.

What works here may not work at other places but that doesnt mean it cant be modified to fit.

[Shavnir]

Well, it depends on the game size.

Locally, we've done several small points tournaments with that exact same layout, playing 5-7 games.

However, if you're doing a 2000pt tournament, you probably won't have time for that many games. That may or may not be a problem.

Just for reference, my 3 games of 'ard boys went from about 1100 to 1900 hours. That's about 8 hours for 3 games, give or take an hour. I don't remember the exact start and finish times. It also includes a 45 minute lunch break.

Honestly given how comically imbalanced 40k gets above 2000 or 2250 or so I'm kinda intrigued that they continue to play games that big but I guess its just further proof that GW doesn't really care as long as we're spending money.

But yea I'd say at 1500 with decent round timers (chess clocks would help if the game's turn structure was a bit more orderly) and you'd have a good shot at having a real swiss tournament.

[DarkLink]

Again these are three round tournements done at my store which usually has about 6 or 7 tables of 40k during the tournements.

What works here may not work at other places but that doesnt mean it cant be modified to fit.

Then an 'ard Boyz style battle points system will probably work best.

[DarkAngelHopeful]

Honestly given how comically imbalanced 40k gets above 2000 or 2250....

I think that's funny. When you said that it made me think of chemically imbalanced. I'm not sure if you intended it to sound similar, but I thought it was funny and it made me laugh.

[Senekal]

Well, that was an interesting read.

It displays something which is often seen, but seldom realized fully - that there are a great many different kinds of GW players. Some play for the game, some for the miniatures, some for the camaraderie etc.

Tournaments are like that. There are many designs and styles. Some are purely for the thrill of competition and battle such as the 'Ard Boyz style. Others are more varied and emphasize lots of different things.

There is no such thing as a 'right' kind of tournament. There is only the kind of tournament that an individual player likes. The kind that they most enjoy is the right kind for them.

Now, I'll be entirely honest and say that I don't personally get those who don't paint their armies. Why play with expensive miniatures then? Why not use simple printed out counters? But, to each their own. I don't have to understand that mindset - some people clearly favor it.

Now - as to the tournament that originally started this discussion, I found the read - entertaining, to say the least. All kinds of commentary - and a great deal of it ignorant. Note that I didn't use the term 'stupid'. Ignorant is just a lack of information.

Astronomi-con is not a 'new' event. It's ten years old and runs in multiple cities. I believe the Dallas event will be our twenty first full two day event. All the discussion of things like VDR, Flyers, this that and the other? They've all been there from the beginning folks and if they didn't work we'd have pulled them long ago. Last month at Astro Toronto there was a fellow whose heavy support was three thunderbolt fighters. His scoring was somewhere in the middle of the pack. Didn't win anything. Not best overall, not best general, nothing. He did do fairly well in the generalship area, but not enough to go home with a trophy. The Best General award went to a Dark Eldar player. So no, people, aircraft don't 'guarantee' you a win. While they're cool to see in play, they don't perform as well as the mathhammer types think they will.

VDR? It's no big deal. Everyone talks about all the fearsome things you can do with it but no one ever has. Not in 21 events. The ONLY reason we review submissions is just to quell the kind of panic I've seen in this thread. And you know, we've never once had to bounce a submission. I think we asked for minor changes on one or two, usually asking them to reduce an armor rating by a point because what they stated wasn't supported by the model they were using. That was it.

Chipmunking? Honestly folks if you are spreadsheeting your event it's ridiculously easy to pick out chipmunking. We even have a policy for dealing with it in place but you know, we've never once had to put it into effect. These kinds of behaviours simply aren't seen much at the kind of events we run. I guess we don't draw that kind of player.

Is Astronomi-con the right kind of tournament for everyone? Of course not! Not anymore than a 'Ard Boyz tournament is. That's fine. We often bill it as the 'tournament for folks who don't like tournaments' and that's by and large true. It's an event for people who like the ENTIRE range of the hobby. Painting, generalship, fluff, everything. If that's not your bag, that's fine.

As to the cost, let me be clear on this - up until this week we'd probably have lost money on this event at the $75.00 price point. Now we're at about break even. Prizes? The trophies, folks are custom made, light up and the total trophy cost for a single event is roughly $800.00. Yes people, EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS. Each of those trophies has more resin in it than a FW Thunderhawk (we weighed it). They cost over a hundred bucks each. Now, if you don't want a cool trophy, again that's fine. But there are folks who do.

And yes, the event is being held in a gaming store. Which is CLOSING for the weekend for the event. Guess how much business that costs them? Of course we have to pay them a venue charge for that - and it isn't a pittance either. Then there is transport. Airfare isn't cheap. We're actually keeping costs down by crashing with folks in Dallas or we'd still be in a money losing position.

So no, people, we don't even try and pretend our events are for everyone. But they are fairly priced and those who do attend them really enjoy them and frequently come back year after year. We have hundreds of customers across Canada that flock to our events with a lot of excitement every year.

So no, it may not be for you - or for the type of folks who tend to generally post on BoLS. That's fine. I'd much prefer not to take the money of folks who won't feel that it was well spent. But for those who DO like this kind of event, well there's a reason we're still doing them ten years on and now in four cities and two countries. Some folks like them - and for those folks, we'll keep on doing them.

Thanks for reading.