Should I stay or should I go now? - The EU Referendum Thread

[Mr Mystery]

Well, it's coming up fast. The biggest decision we'll make as a country, possible ever.

As ever, keep it civil, and try to keep it factual (which sadly rules out anything that comes out of Farage's mouth ever. Well, I say sadly. I mean 'thankfully' of course )

Me? I'll be voting 'In'.

Simply put, the Out campaign have, so far, singularly failed to suggest what the alternative might be. They suggest a certain method, have the flaws pointed out (like still having to pay in, but having no say) and then switch to another model, rinse and repeat.

Whilst Europe is far from a perfect beast, I've seen nothing to show that the UK going it alone will leave us better off - and sadly the Out campaign haven't done anything to tackle the perception that a lot of their arguments are based on racism and a lack of compassion (migrants etc - they continue to blame all ills on them, but resolutely ignore multiple studies showing Migration has a net benefit).

To reuse a phrase I've battered a lot recently - better to be at the table complaining about the food, than rifling through the bins.

The world is getting smaller. Globalisation is a very, very real thing. Britannia Rules No More. Is this really the time to leave a large bargaining group in the vague hope we might be able to get some things more to our own tastes, or is it just The Daily Mail Effect - the delusion we somehow, on our own, constitute a world power?

IMPORTANT EDIT - PLEASE READ!

With hindsight, title is possibly misleading. Should have used 'we' instead of 'I', as by dropping a song reference I may have given the impression I'm looking to be persuaded one way or the other. I'm not. I'm very much In for this one! Apologies

[Psychosplodge]

I'll be voting out as things stand.
Nothing should be placed above the parliamentary sovereignty* of the UK.
The utter contempt the EU showed us with the joke negotiations didn't help. The EEC was a good idea. The borderline wannabe federal superstate we are now? Not for me.

There's nothing one way or another to say which way will be better or worse off, but the idea they can predict 2030s economic forcast when they can't get a six month growth prediction, or anything else in recent memory is a joke.
There's also no point sitting at the table, playing by the rules if everyone else picks and chooses what rules to follow or seemingly re-writes them as suits.

Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change.

[Mr Mystery]

Way I see it, we know exactly where we are being in Europe right now.

Sovereignty is somewhat overrated - because we're still bound by certain international laws - and to date, we've not had any laws foisted upon us. Too much of the Out Campaign seems to be based on 'Everyone Else In Europe Hates Us And They're All Colluding Against Us Look Just Who Won The Bloody War In The First Place God Save The Queen 1966' (only slight exaggeration)

To me, it's no different to many political decisions being made purely for the benefit of The City, and lots of public money being filtered in The City to fund that. Example? Happy to bail out the banks. But the steel industry can pretty much eff itself.

With the Out campaign singularly incapable of telling us what Out will look like, I just see no reason to rock the current boat. We very much risk getting the ****ty end of the stick on every occasion in the future, and all Boris and Co. can offer is 'pshwah, crikey, gosh, it'll be fine, what? Crikey. Blimey! Gosh! DIRTY FOREIGNERS HATE US'.

[Denzark]

MM

You repeatedly say the out campaign doesn't tell us what out will look like. It is not a formed body with an electoral mandate. It can't specify for certain what out will look like. There are aims of out. I have cut and pasted some of the main areas of contention from the DT.

The specifics would only be certainty after the exit negotiations were signed off. No one knows exactly what it would be - but we have a rough idea.

[CoffeeGrunt]

My problem with the Out is a similar problem I had to the Scottish Out. Scotland would be utterly screwed right now. There's no laws I can find that have been forced by the EU that weren't in the process of being adopted by the UK anyway.

Additionally, I work in the offshore industry. Leaving the EU just isn't viable for us right now.

[Psychosplodge]

Why would the offshore industry suffer CG?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Large amount of funding from the EU to subsidise things, as well as my job in particular being reliant on EU Environmental Legislation. Not to mention that the majority of our services are 'exported' to the EU and we buy a lot of stuff from them. Given how close most offshore companies are to collapsing right now, all those extra charges would probably cause another wave of redundancies and closures.

Work inside the EU is far easier for us than outside, where Customs delays become a pain, not to mention the charges and endless paperwork for some, especially in emerging markets like Myanmar. It'd be the difference between us winning contracts or them being awarded to a company that wouldn't have to bugger through customs just to drop some recording units in the Black Sea. We're barely winning contracts as it is.

[Mr Mystery]

MM

You repeatedly say the out campaign doesn't tell us what out will look like. It is not a formed body with an electoral mandate. It can't specify for certain what out will look like. There are aims of out. I have cut and pasted some of the main areas of contention from the DT.

The specifics would only be certainty after the exit negotiations were signed off. No one knows exactly what it would be - but we have a rough idea.

Which is the big issue for me. Either nobody knows, or nobody is telling.

And that's why I favour staying put. The Out campaign promise many wonderful things, but when it comes to explaining how to make those things a reality, they're coming up short every time.

If I was confident we could get a better deal, I could vote 'Out'. But as many pointed out with the SNP and the Leave vote - there's just no plan. Many promises. Lots of wishes, but nothing to say how we're going to achieve that.

Consider negotiating our own trade agreements - where's our muscle for that? We'd be going up against Russia, China, USA, Europe, India and basically everyone. What is it that we've got that they don't, to the degree we can get anything less than the poopy end of the stick? And sadly, it seems whenever that sort of question is asked, all we get is 'BUT WE CAN CONTROL OUR BORDERS' as an answer - or at least the loudest answer.

Me? I don't have a problem with immigration. Britain (England especially) has been a multicultural society pretty much since forever, and it's worked out pretty well so far. The whole concept of Economic Migrants to me is nonsensical. I mean.....who doesn't move to another country in search of a better life? Why are we objecting to that? A necessary part of successful Economic Migration is that they come, get a job or start a business, and enjoy the relative wealth of our nation - and in doing so, contribute to it.

The same tired old arguments have been trotted out time and again, ever since the Second World War - they took ur jurb! They took ur benefits! Apparently, at the same time. WAVES OF RAPISTS AND SEX CASES AND MURDERERS. THAT'S THE ONLY SORT THAT COME HERE!....utterly regardless of the evidence.

Xenophobia about Indian and Pakistani migrants? Curry is now our national dish. They came, they worked hard, they contributed. Could there be better integration in some areas? Yup, except that's a two way street. We need to show they're welcome to work and contribute, and not have bullnecked racist ****s like the EDL and Britain First encouraging constant harassment of their communities. Yes, it is helpful if they can learn the language, of course it is - but what support was in place for that previously?

And this is my biggest issue with voting Out - rightly or wrongly, it's largely perceived as a Xenophobic, jingoistic movement, because that's what the Press keep trotting out. I don't believe for a second that being a racist bellend is a requirement to be and Outie, but it is drowning out rational debate, and turning people off.

[Psychosplodge]

Large amount of funding from the EU to subsidise things, as well as my job in particular being reliant on EU Environmental Legislation. Not to mention that the majority of our services are 'exported' to the EU and we buy a lot of stuff from them. Given how close most offshore companies are to collapsing right now, all those extra charges would probably cause another wave of redundancies and closures.

Work inside the EU is far easier for us than outside, where Customs delays become a pain, not to mention the charges and endless paperwork for some, especially in emerging markets like Myanmar. It'd be the difference between us winning contracts or them being awarded to a company that wouldn't have to bugger through customs just to drop some recording units in the Black Sea. We're barely winning contracts as it is.

Surely Myamar is irrelevant to being in the EU or not?
I would have assumed multinationals already have plenty of experience working across borders?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Surely Myamar is irrelevant to being in the EU or not?
I would have assumed multinationals already have plenty of experience working across borders?

Myanmar is entirely irrelevant. I was using it as an example of a country where we don't have as easy a relation as we do to the EU right now. Everything we import and export to and from there gets taxed to heck, and delayed by weeks. It's often entirely out of our control and given the short notice nature of our work, it's a real pain to deal with.

So as it stands, EU work is a doddle. No real customs issues, no taxation on moving stuff between here and there, and the paperwork we have to import it is in the form of Open Licenses, meaning we just keeping using them for the next fifteen years for categories of equipment. Other countries have you apply for licenses for specific pieces of equipment they want regulated if it has potential military uses. Given that our main equipment is a civilian offshoot of the gear used to seek out submarines, but arguably more precise, then it's often that being held up, which holds up the whole job and costs us charges in Client Time Payments.

The difference between us just about managing and us closing down is genuinely down to stuff like that. We've had to slash profit margins to compete, and accruing weeks of lost Client Time while we sort through paperwork can make a job effectively not worth doing financially, (though we still have to do it to be sweet with the client.)

TL;DR, the EU lets us skip a lot of PitA stuff that the rest of the world doesn't. Half our work is from the EU, so leaving it makes half our work less financially viable, makes our equipment cost more to buy in, and delays everything. :/