The Force Awakens - Spoilerific Discussion.

[Gotthammer]

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It's worth noting that Phasma was added to the movie very late in production for such a significant role, so likely contributes to her lack of involvement to the overall story.

luke skywalker:my apprentice just turned to the dark side what would yoda or obi-wan do
luke skywalker:
luke skywalker:*pulls on hawaiian shirt and shades*
luke skywalker:exile

ok i will bet real money on the fact that rey has never seen a girl even close to her age until she goes to the resistance base and there are all these cute lady pilots and soldiers and scientists and she’s just like…

[eldargal]

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Nice.

I'd love if they make Rey, Poe and Finn all canonically gay. Like it would just be such wonderful comeuppance for all teh homophobic idiots out there whining about the number of gay characters in the books and comics steadily increasing. Make Sabine gay. Make Hera bisexual. Make Rey, Finn and Poe all gay. Make Maz the only new straight character in the trilogy.

[Gotthammer]

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Make Maz the only new straight character in the trilogy.

Chewie's really a woman, it's just that everyone's really bad at wookieese so has been getting her pronouns wrong this whole time

Though recently:

Daisy Ridley looks like the love child of Keira Knightley and Hayley Atwell

[Arkhan Land]

The prequels are not terrible. They're not worthless, they're not pointless, and it pissed me off when people say they are. They're just not the "hero's journey" that the first 3 Star Wars films are, that the audience expected. They're a love story intertwined with the tale of someone who is downtrodden and tries so hard and no matter WHAT he does, no matter how hard he tries, he's always told he's not enough. He's not allowed to be passionate. He's not allowed to fix things. He's told the status quo is God, and trying to change that is evil, until the pain finally pushes him over the edge and into the arms of the one person that's told him he has worth. And it's an abusive relationship between Anakin and Palpatine, it's one Palpatine has groomed him for for years, but it's really not at all surprising.

It's also not surprising that a lot of women can empathise with characters in the prequel trilogy more than the original trilogy.

[url=http://batsutousai.tumblr.com/post/136207088419/a-list-of-unpopular-opinions-about-star-wars]This explains it better than I can[/url]



In my opinion Revenge of the Sith is the best film out of the seven so far, but when I've said that I have gotten death threats from people who claim the prequels are terrible. So hearing people on BoLS say they've got no value is unpleasant.

Peoples reasons for disliking the prequels are legitimate but I think overstated. The films themselves are not bad, they are enjoyable from a star wars perspective, but...

I think peoples general disdain with them is that even adjusted for inflation they cost twice as much as any star wars movie ever made before and were not in fact, twice as good. Theoretically speaking we were supposed to have an amazing all-star cast, and we did, just didnt help the other problems.
The first three prequels arent bad, but it feels like theres more potential there. everytime I've watched them again the only thing that gets me is how bad some of the script-work is, sadly unlike the OG star wars maybe they really clamped down on any good improv or cast input.

Then... theres the CGI thing. Star Wars as a movie has been for me and most movie nerds I know a hallmark of a biog **** You to CGI or the need for it, looking back and watching the OG films theres very little that feels missing in practical effects. Empire/Jedi have a few scenes that were done in a sort of inbetween process that uses some didigital technology but ultimately still relies on analog input for images. Then came the 90s, we had a ****ty re-release with added CGI updates, some of which were fine, but others of which were real dumb. The Han+Jabba scene that we\as re-added fell really really flat I rememeber people yelling "What the **** is this" at the screen when I saw it in theatres... same for the new jabbas palace scene, or that dumbass beak they put on the sarlac. for many people the CGI-ness was a big deteriorating factor that I think they weren't over at the time the prequels came out. They took away our original prints, banned them from being shown where still possessed (some real doozy of public Policy right there, some real memorable film festival ruining moments in the news around that time of C&Ds followed by lucas film sending you an updated copy of Hope/EMP/Jedi for free to use)

but yeah overall I think people were still upset with Lucas for this, it had literally only been two years since the man pooped all over the original series, when it turned out the whole new movie was CGI the haters piled it on out of spite.


as an aside, I personally enjoy the soundtracks from them. John Williams just keeps pouring in Stravinsky and
Wagner juice into a gigantic black witch cauldron of soundtrack

I think its wrong to think they have no value, but i think its equally confusing to somehow think its the best. I personally think the best two are the OG and Empire cause they represent Lucas' best work from when he was younger and did the most on a tiny tiny tiny *** budget, I personally think most of the films are about of equal quality with the first three having a bettter Cast/Cast Dynamic and simply having done more with less in terms of cast, budget, presentation and composition

[Charistoph]

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Chewie's really a woman, it's just that everyone's really bad at wookieese so has been getting her pronouns wrong this whole time

Or maybe Wookie males are brooding inseminators and females have ovipositers.

David Weber and John Ringo make a joke about that in the "Empire of Man" series starting with March Upcountry. The gender they tag as "male" have really large members, so they tag them as "male" in their translaters. They only later find out that instead of being used to deposit sperm, they deposit eggs in the males which is why they are larger.

[odinsgrandson]

The prequels are not terrible. They're not worthless, they're not pointless, and it pissed me off when people say they are. They're just not the "hero's journey" that the first 3 Star Wars films are, that the audience expected.They're a love story intertwined with the tale of someone who is downtrodden and tries so hard and no matter WHAT he does, no matter how hard he tries, he's always told he's not enough...

How about this- you and I disagree, but I'd like to discuss this with you in a kind manner, and not insult you personally in any way.

With your description, I kind of wish I had seen the movies as you did. To be fair, I liked Revenge- way more than the other two prequels at the very least, and I'm sure that setting my expectations low helped that along.

But I felt that in order to successfully tell the story you're talking about, a lot of subtlety would be required- and some very carefully handled motivations. And that is the thing that is most lacking.

Also- I feel that most of the criticisms that people bring forward are the wrong ones anyway- people know that they didn't like the movie, but I don't think that they analyze it well enough to know why. They focus on how much they hate Jar Jar Binks and medichlorians instead.

Now, I think the real trouble with the prequels is three fold:

1- George Lucas is bad with people. He can't write them, he can't direct them, and he can't motivate them.

Harrison Ford complained about the dialogue he was handed (and it is noticeably better in Empire and Jedi when George isn't writing it). All of the dialogue is meant to be stated with a deadly seriousness that just comes off as campy. Compare it against very good dialogue (Firefly makes a good an example) no one ever says exactly what they mean without loads of sub text.

And the story George was telling needed more subtlety and depth than the original trilogy. Leia and Han's relationship didn't really get stressed like Padme and Anakin- but Leia and Han feel more real and deep to me (mostly they had great chemistry- that can go a long way. And in Empire, they don't always say exactly what they mean).

George Lucas has a love for the technology that really gets in the way of his directing. He experimented with cutting the footage apart so that he could use different takes of each character in the same scene. This seemed like it might have been a good idea, but it may have contributed to the lack of screen chemistry on display (these actors aren't actually responding to one another's performances).

And the talent of the actors is, if anything, much higher than it was the first time around (Ewan McGregor, Liam Neesan and Natalie Portman have all been fantastic in other films). There's simply no excuse.

2- They don't really add- by that I mean that they do not surprise us or tell a much better story than Obi-wan did in the originals.

The reason for doing prequels is so that you can show us interesting things that we didn't get when we has the story summed up by characters in the present. The story we are watching needs to significantly improve on the story we imagined when the characters talked about it.

Star Wars prequels are far from the only ones that offend in this way, but it is still a major flaw. I admit I was surprised by all of the 'chosen one' stuff (and I really loved the parts about Darth Plagus that turned that on its head). But it really didn't do enough that is better than the minimum that we expected.

3- This isn't the '70s anymore, and the audience has grown up.

Films contemporaneous to Star Wars mostly kept an emotional distance from their characters, and the special effects were really terrible.

Star Wars broke through that and delivered what has become the standard formula for blockbusters (much of it via heroic journey). Since then, we've seen it done again and again. We need something a little more to hold our attention- much less love.


- As for the originals- I saw them first when I was very young- which helps them be cool in my eyes. I can analyze them critically, and I do find that they come up shallow.

But the stage chemistry between the lead actors is really fantastic to see- each moment in which Luke, Leia and Han are all on screen together is a joy. That helps us to really relate to the characters.

Also- the prequels aren't as bad as people believe them to be. But they don't stand up to the love people have for the original trilogy- and a lot of those feelings are undeserved.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Going back to watch the originals is like going back to play Half Life. You're looking at something that has since had every likable aspect of it repeatedly stolen and tweaked until it's utterly surpassed in almost every way. It established a lot of the rules, but the problem with that is that it then becomes indistinguishable, then it falls behind.

My personal issues with the trilogy boil down to two things:
- Stilted dialogue,
- Overuse of CGI while it was in its infancy,

Bear in mind that Attack of the Clones was released the same year we got The Two Towers. The difference in approach really shows between those two movies when you look at the environments, and it's the realisation of that which has caused a resurgence of practical effects in movies these days. They just hold up way better. Compare Helm's Deep to any battle in AotC, or the environment of Edoras to other environments. Heck, compare Gollum to any of the CGI creations in AotC.

Again, the premise had some high points, and I liked Revenge of the Sith, but character motivation was, well...difficult to believe. There are better ways it could've been handled.

[Charistoph]

Going back to watch the originals is like going back to play Half Life. You're looking at something that has since had every likable aspect of it repeatedly stolen and tweaked until it's utterly surpassed in almost every way. It established a lot of the rules, but the problem with that is that it then becomes indistinguishable, then it falls behind.

My personal issues with the trilogy boil down to two things:
- Stilted dialogue,
- Overuse of CGI while it was in its infancy,

Bear in mind that Attack of the Clones was released the same year we got The Two Towers. The difference in approach really shows between those two movies when you look at the environments, and it's the realisation of that which has caused a resurgence of practical effects in movies these days. They just hold up way better. Compare Helm's Deep to any battle in AotC, or the environment of Edoras to other environments. Heck, compare Gollum to any of the CGI creations in AotC.

Again, the premise had some high points, and I liked Revenge of the Sith, but character motivation was, well...difficult to believe. There are better ways it could've been handled.

Agreed, mostly. The best parts of the Prequels were when everyone just shut up and acted (I don't count Padme crying as acting, though). The best lightsaber fight in all 7 movies was in Revenge of the Sith, in my opinion. Both Ewan and Hayden didn't have to rely on bad scripts and allowed their actions to show their emotions throughout the entire fight while also showing an incredible amount of skill.

Dialogue-wise, it was almost like it was a High School Fanfic supported by a huge budget. Even how the politics and economics were worked seemed to have an adolescent point of view (no wonder Palpatine was able to lead them along so easily). And let's just say that the Prequels problems started with the Gungan, and it can all be tied to what he was and how George pushed him in to being.

[Lexington]

They don't really add- by that I mean that they do not surprise us or tell a much better story than Obi-wan did in the originals.

Aaron Diaz did a good job of [URL="http://starwars1999.tumblr.com/post/60034251498/the-star-wars-prequels-some-things-are-better"]covering this already[/URL], but I don't think it's a story that could be told well. Even if one ignores the layers of production issues, the prequels aren't really a story so much as a backstory for the original movies, and one that undermines almost all of their narrative hooks. Both A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back build up to the latter's climax (retroactively in ANH's case, but still), that great granddaddy of sci-fi plot twists: "No, I am your father." If the audience is in on the gag from the beginning, it doesn't make any sense for the originals to have been told this way.

They didn't need to work this way - nothing mandated that Episodes 1 - 3 had to even include Anakin Skywalker, much less focus intensely on his rise and fall. Really, the originals suggest that they shouldn't have at all. Why Lucas decided that they'd be what they are is beyond me, but the premise would make the movies weird and awkward even if they'd been executed with minimal competence.

[odinsgrandson]

Aaron Diaz did a good job of [URL="http://starwars1999.tumblr.com/post/60034251498/the-star-wars-prequels-some-things-are-better"]covering this already[/URL], but I don't think it's a story that could be told well...

Ok, I'll be honest. I've derived more hours of entertainment from re-writing Star Wars than I ever would have had from a good prequel trilogy.

There was a rumor that Lucas was told by his director friends that he should re-think the arcs of his three films. I don't know if that's true (it probably isn't). If it is, they told him that film one he should be evil, film two should feature him as evil the whole time, and there shouldn't be a third film at all.

Now, George had three movies to make, and here's how you make Anakin's arc over the course of three films. Note that it is very important that these be prequel films- their reliance on the audience knowing the end from the start will be helpful, and add meaning rather than detract. As such, they should be watched after the original three movies.

1- First film can establish Anakin. Use the adult actor- there's no reason to make him a ten year old, as it adds nothing but absurdity and poor acting from your protagonist. This would be a good place for his romantic arc.

2- The second film should feature his turn to Darth Vader at its climax. He should see the practicality of being part of the Sith, and should not believe himself to be a villain. Lucas isn't well known for his villains that don't believe that they're villains, but that's the best way for this to work. He should believe himself to be a hero, just not blinded by the traditions of the Jedi. He is a passionate warrior, and he is stronger because of it, not weaker.

3- The third film should feature his complete fall. Anakin should get darker and darker as the film goes on, and transfer from being the hero of his own story into the psycho who strangles his subordinates. This would really be the most heart breaking film of the series if it is pulled off quite well.

Also- it would help if we reference Return of the Jedi in how Anakin falls.


That way, we end up with the sort of guy who calls out "But you do not know the power of the Dark Side."


Also- the Old Republic must transform into the Empire. I actually thought that one was one of the better parts of the prequels, but I think we could do better. Essentially, start out with the Federation as the bad guys, but in the end, we should realize that they have a point (like- if Count Dooku hadn't been a Sith- instead, he had left the Jedi because he wanted to fight against the Sith run Republic). Have more opposition to Palpatine, and more chances for the Republic to not fail- the failure becomes so much more meaningful that way.