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  1. #41
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    Hmm whole thing feels like 40K has been squeezed into a political rant rather than an article about 40K.

    I think quite a few need to stop using Blackadder goes Forth as the basis for their "facts" about the Great War. So very briefly

    The tactics have been shown to actually be the best available at the time. Real modern military commanders have said this.

    The ruling class actually suffered far more casualties proportionally than the working in fact this was the case generally up to this point as fighting wars/ protecting their subjects was pretty much the job of the nobility.

    The Great War is considered the death, both literally and figuratively of the traditional ruling classes in both the UK and Germany and certainly the making of the working classes in the UK, as a class they actually came out of it healthier (the army fed them better) richer (the army paid them better) and more relevant (a power vacuum existed due to all the dead toffs)

    Modern military training in the UK focuses very little on "doing it for your country " it actually focuses on fostering a bond between individual soldiers in a unit it's all about personal loyalty rather than loyalty to some concept. Also and I'm sure that Denzark will agree a lot more time and effort goes into not getting shot than it does into killing people. They even tell you "it's the other guy's job to die for his country". Far from being brainwashed killing tools the British army is a collection of cynical professionals it's why the US army doesn't like to leave home without them.

    On the subject of all the Skulls completehook is absolutely correct.

    CSM are in the whole very much NOT about dying for their gods, most of them Horus and Abbadon included don't even worship them. I fact the ones that do only do so really for the chance of immortality and ultimate power, something which the Gods of Chaos do actually provide (all be it sparingly)!and the emperor doesn't.

    Also if people are on your ignore list you're supposed to be ignoring them telling people and going on about it makes you look like a passive aggressive prat.!
    Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit
    Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

  2. #42
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    At the risk of de-railing this thread, I couldn't help but notice how few skulls there are on the BaC sprues, I'd need to check to be sure but I think it's less than a dozen !

  3. #43

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    I think the mockery of WWII tactics is born from the same historical ignorance as the everlasting, "haha, French people can't fight," 'joke' born from the Battle of France in WWII. It's historically ignorant because people simply don't realise how much the nature of war had been changed by Germany in that opening round of the war.

    Tanks, to the British and French, were lumbering beasts like the Matilda and Char Bis. Tough ol' girls that didn't move much and could take a beating, typically deployed in ones or twos with infantry support because the game after WWI was small numbers of tanks engaging each other, so the Char Bis and Matilda with their big guns and tough armour were the best at that. Warfare was still quite static, so the Maginot Line was built to be an impenetrable shell, were Germany to use the same kinds of tactics they used in WWI.

    So when Germany developed the lighter Panzer tanks, deployed them in armoured fists and moved at speed through a gap in the Maginot Line that was forested and impassable to Allied tanks, the French had no bloody idea they were under attack until the Germans were already in their country. A significant portion of their army was sitting on the Maginot Line with their thumbs up their backsides, while Rommel pushed his tanks at speed across France, sweeping across Normandy and shoving the British into the Channel. He moved so fast and at such speed that French command were issuing fallback orders to already overwhelmed units, to locations already under Wehrmacht control.

    Heck, the country fell in a month and 15 days. A whole country. It was utterly unthinkable at the time, especially with the long, slow attrition of WWI in such recent memory. So many in this country mock the French for it, but if it weren't for the Channel, Britain would probably have been swept as well in a follow-up campaign. It was only because we managed to make it a game of air-to-air combat that we ever had a chance. If we'd faced the Wehrmacht combined arms approach as France did...well, history would be very different.

    Sorry for the rant, just a pet peeve of mine.
    Read the above in a Tachikoma voice.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeGrunt View Post
    Sorry for the rant, just a pet peeve of mine.
    No worries CG, we all have our peeves, domesticated and wild.

    Now, any responses to the questions posed in #24?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by YorkNecromancer View Post
    I love the job, but I wouldn't really recommend it to anyone any more.
    I think that's why they call it a vocation.

    You're not alone though, as Auntie gleefully points out today.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35027818
    "Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a **** about the rules? Mark it zero!"

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeGrunt View Post
    I think the mockery of WWII tactics is born from the same historical ignorance as the everlasting, "haha, French people can't fight," 'joke' born from the Battle of France in WWII. It's historically ignorant because people simply don't realise how much the nature of war had been changed by Germany in that opening round of the war.

    Tanks, to the British and French, were lumbering beasts like the Matilda and Char Bis. Tough ol' girls that didn't move much and could take a beating, typically deployed in ones or twos with infantry support because the game after WWI was small numbers of tanks engaging each other, so the Char Bis and Matilda with their big guns and tough armour were the best at that. Warfare was still quite static, so the Maginot Line was built to be an impenetrable shell, were Germany to use the same kinds of tactics they used in WWI.

    So when Germany developed the lighter Panzer tanks, deployed them in armoured fists and moved at speed through a gap in the Maginot Line that was forested and impassable to Allied tanks, the French had no bloody idea they were under attack until the Germans were already in their country. A significant portion of their army was sitting on the Maginot Line with their thumbs up their backsides, while Rommel pushed his tanks at speed across France, sweeping across Normandy and shoving the British into the Channel. He moved so fast and at such speed that French command were issuing fallback orders to already overwhelmed units, to locations already under Wehrmacht control.

    Heck, the country fell in a month and 15 days. A whole country. It was utterly unthinkable at the time, especially with the long, slow attrition of WWI in such recent memory. So many in this country mock the French for it, but if it weren't for the Channel, Britain would probably have been swept as well in a follow-up campaign. It was only because we managed to make it a game of air-to-air combat that we ever had a chance. If we'd faced the Wehrmacht combined arms approach as France did...well, history would be very different.

    Sorry for the rant, just a pet peeve of mine.
    I think most of the mockery at the time though was from the lack of determination shown by the French government, not by the French people. It was the government that capitulated when more than half of their country was still in their control, and when the majority of their fleet, most of their colonial assets and a significant chunk of their army was also intact. Paris fell, and the government decided to stop all combat with Germany, rather than retreat south into deeper France, and even to it's colonies and become a government in exile as many of the other European countries did. It was the capitulation of the French government that surprised Britain most too- the BEF actually landed in the south of France again after Dunkirk expecting to rendezvous with French forces, and had to evacuate again when it became clear France was surrendering.
    In the nightmare future of the 41st millennium, there is no time for peace. No respite. No Balance. There is only War.

  6. #46
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    Hell of an article, York.

    One thing that complicates this idea, for 40K, at least, is that the forces of the Imperium, the Craftworlds, the Tau and etc. really do provide a front line of protection for their societies against an endlessly cruel and predatory universe. There's Orks and Tyranids and Commorragites out there that really will fall on an undefended world and murder it in a thousand increasingly horrible ways. There is an element of heroism to the Astartes, the Guard, etc. It's a universe where you can at least argue that the brutal repression of humanity is done for good reasons. It's not for nothing that 40K has a notable following among the scariest corners of proudly-fascist right-wingerdom - it's a proper metaphor for the real world, far as they're concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by YorkNecromancer View Post
    And his War Boys stay loyal to him because they believe his lies wholeheartedly. They don’t even know they’re lies, because there are no conflicting opinions.
    One of the countless little worldbuilding notes that I love in this movie is how well it portrays this idea. At first, Nux doesn't even grasp that there could be other worldviews out there. There's no need to perpetuate his worldview through argument or even violence, because he doesn't even know that it's possible to see thing any other way. Immortan Joe, Valhalla, etc. - it's just how things are, and he expects everyone else just knows this

    Quote Originally Posted by YorkNecromancer View Post
    Looking back at what I've done, I hadn't noticed that I hadn't really touched on the various Xenos species. Huh. Right then, I'll give it some thought and maybe try for a column or two looking at them...
    If you don't have it already, I can't recommend the classic White Dwarf 127 enough. It's famous for introducing the Craftworld Eldar as we know them today, and about 90% of it gets re-printed every time there's a new Eldar Codex. There's a series of Bill King vignettes in there that I haven't seen anywhere else, and they're vital. It's a really amazing look at an Aspect Warrior's psychology, and how the purpose of the Path isn't just to make an Eldar into an efficient killing machine, but also how it keeps them from feeling the crushing loss of friends in battle, so long as they're encased in their Aspect armor. Sounds like something you might be interested in.

    Also, because somehow, this hasn't been part of the thread yet...

    Last edited by Lexington; 12-12-2015 at 01:40 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexington View Post
    One thing that complicates this idea, for 40K, at least, is that the forces of the Imperium, the Craftworlds, the Tau and etc. really do provide a front line of protection for their societies against an endlessly cruel and predatory universe. There's Orks and Tyranids and Commorragites out there that really will fall on an undefended world and murder it in a thousand increasingly horrible ways. There is an element of heroism to the Astartes, the Guard, etc. It's a universe where you can at least argue that the brutal repression of humanity is done for good reasons. It's not for nothing that 40K has a notable following among the scariest corners of proudly-fascist right-wingerdom - it's a proper metaphor for the real world, far as they're concerned.
    Indeed. And it's not just external enemies either, nor just the traditional enemies within and without (i.e. heretics and Chaos) - evolution itself is out to get the human species.

    Rogue Trader onwards has made it clear that humanity is evolving into a psychic species and that the incidence of psychically-capable humans will increase with every generation. But, as we also know from the oldest versions of 40k background onwards, most psykers are too weak and/or lacking in control to be anything but a danger to humanity. They will naturally attract warp predators ("My mind has awoken! I can move objects through sheer willpower! I can read the minds of others! A giant transdimensional space wasp has just burst out of my head! Agh!"), be exploited by heretics, be possessed by daemons, be the cause of massive unrest, rioting, purges and literal witch hunts because everyone fears psykers, etc. etc.

    Even without alien armies and raiders, internal dissent, even without the ever-present Ruinous powers in the warp, the universe would still be out to get humanity through evolution. Nascent psykers would be born in greater and greater numbers, and the majority of them will be too weak and/or uncontrolled to be anything but a danger. Alternatively, in a less grim dark far future, humanity may fight its way through these evolutionary pressures and successfully develop giant transdimensional space wasp-based economy.

    The 40k universe has also evolved [URL="https://sho3box.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/ptera-squirrel/"]endearingly cute killer squirrels[/URL] and [URL="http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Catachan_Face-Eater"]man-eating face flannels/ towels[/URL]. I rest my case

  8. #48

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    Hmm whole thing feels like 40K has been squeezed into a political rant rather than an article about 40K.
    I think almost every work of art ever created is political in some way, but people only tend to notice when their politics are at odds with the creator's. Pointing out that the article is a political argument, is, after all, a political argument of its own.

    The aim of my article was to express my personal opinions on the prevalence of skull iconography in the Imperium. Given that - assuming one prefers to look at things more deeply that ''cuz it's kewl', which I do - that prevelance is due to the Imperium's unique brand of hyper-violent theocratic fascism... Well, after a bit, taking one political viewpoint or another becomes both inevitable and unavoidable.
    AUT TACE AUT LOQUERE MELIORA SILENTIO

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by YorkNecromancer View Post
    I think almost every work of art ever created is political in some way, but people only tend to notice when their politics are at odds with the creator's. Pointing out that the article is a political argument, is, after all, a political argument of its own.

    The aim of my article was to express my personal opinions on the prevalence of skull iconography in the Imperium. Given that - assuming one prefers to look at things more deeply that ''cuz it's kewl', which I do - that prevelance is due to the Imperium's unique brand of hyper-violent theocratic fascism... Well, after a bit, taking one political viewpoint or another becomes both inevitable and unavoidable.
    Yeah that's fair enough I was being a bit tired and grumpy (trials of having a baby). Let's face I knew what I should be expecting from one of your articles and it was pretty good so I apologise for the grumpiness. I also liked that you drew parallels with Stalinist facisism which I felt has always fitted better with the Imperium than the "Space ****" comparison.

    Edit, Well blow me why is that word censored?
    Last edited by grimmas; 12-13-2015 at 01:03 PM.
    Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit
    Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

  10. #50

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    Let's face I knew what I should be expecting from one of your articles
    What can I tell you? I'm from the People's Republic of South Yorkshire.

    And, to misquote Wilde, I gotta be me. Everyone else is taken.

    and it was pretty good so I apologise for the grumpiness.
    Well, thank you.

    You're very kind to say so.

    I also liked that you drew parallels with Stalinist facism which I felt has always fitted better with the Imperium than the "Space ****" comparison.
    I'll be honest: I don't see (and never have, actually) any difference between Stalinist Russia and Adolf's Germany. There's no discernable difference between the two, because ultimately, they were both despicable Totalitarian states. Ultra-right or ultra-left wing; it makes no difference.

    I think the problem you get is that the media paints all left-wingers as wobbly-headed idiots, and Russian Communism remains an easy way to do so. "Look at those crazy Socialists! They're all like Stalin!"

    Yes. of course they are. And all right-wingers are like Dylann Roof, all Christians are like the Westboro Baptist Church, and blah blah blah.

    Heaven forfend we actually have some f**king nuance in our conversation.
    AUT TACE AUT LOQUERE MELIORA SILENTIO

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