Experimental Walkers Rules

[Melissia]

A lot of people have complained about the fragility of walkers, and to an extent I agree. I personally would love to, for example, put out a squadron of Penitent Engines and not have them laughed at and destroyed with ease. And I know people think dreads are too defensively weak.

So, let's try and work out how to make them more survivable. Try and put your ideas out in this format, numbering them based on order of posting.


Idea #1 (from Melissia)
Summary
Make walkers harder to damage.

Specifics
Walker Mobility
-- Walkers may force an opponent to re-roll damage rolls. The second result must be accepted.
-- If an enemy rolls a 6 on their to-hit, they hit the walker's front armor instead of side armor.
---- Rear armor hits always count as rear armor hits.

Idea #2 (from Melissia)
Summary
Change Walkers to be Monstrous Creatures.

Specifics
This would require a rework of each profile and so I won't get into specifics, but in general hiere is what I would suggest:

FA10 = T5, 3 wounds, 3+ save
FA11 = T6, 3 wounds, 3+ save
FA12 = T6, 3 wounds, 2+ save
FA13 = T6, 4 wounds, 2+ save
FA14 = T7, 4 wounds, 2+ save

Along with Eternal Warrior and a special rule (inspired by the Sisters of BAttle special rule) that makes all Force Weapons (of all types) count as Power Weapons instead.

[Master Bryss]

So, under these new reforms (MCs), a Sentinel can walk up to a Russ, kick it with its mighty feet of doom and do serious damage? I don't see that happening.

As well as this, it means that a Russ can be melta'd and die instantly, but a Dread will shrug it off. Odd.

[Melissia]

These are two separate ideas. I don't really honestly know how to balance walkers as monstrous creatures at the moment. Maybe make Melta (or just AP1?) weapons do d6 wounds ( which ignore armor saves) to Walkers?

[Master Bryss]

Hmm... just a spontaneous thought, but what about applying Structure Points to every vehicle in 40k and not just super heavys?

[Melissia]

Idea #3 (from Melissia)
Summary
Change Walkers to be Monstrous Creatures, reworked.

Specifics
This would require a rework of each profile and so I won't get into specifics, but in general hiere is what I would suggest:

FA10 = T5, 1 wound, 3+ save
FA11 = T6, 1 wound, 3+ save
FA12 = T6, 2 wounds, 3+ save
FA13 = T6, 2 wounds, 2+ save
FA14 = T7, 2 wounds, 2+ save

Walker special rules
-- Eternal Warrior
-- Force Weapons (of all kinds) become Power Weapons
-- Invulnerable save based on the quality and quantity of the armor.
---- Scout Sentinels and Killa Kanz might have a 6++ save.
---- Armored Sentinels and Penitent Engines might have a 5++ save.
---- Dreadnaughts and Deff Dreads might have a 4++ save.
---- Ideally, no save greater than 4++.

[Melissia]

That could work, but I'd want to know how you'd implement that specifically.

[Nabterayl]

What about just making them immune to the extra armor penetration from monstrous creatures and giving them a 4+ dodge roll when making a Death or Glory attack? That addresses my two major "feels wrong" issues.

[Master Bryss]

Idea#4 (from Master Bryss

A general rework of vehicle survivability. Assign Structure Points to vehicles and rework damage table, por ejemplo:

Vehicle Types with 1 SP: Open-topped vehicles, vehicles with total AV of 33 or less, Chimeras (Rhino, Ravager, etc).

(I'm fully aware that this means Penitent Engines won't get tougher, but to be fair the pilot might as well have a big fat target painted on his chest considering he has no protection at all)

Vehicle Types with 2 SP: Vehicles with total AV of 34-38 (Wave Serpent, Predator, etc)

Vehicle Types with 3 SP: Vehicles with total AV of 39+ (Land Raider, etc)

Damage table has the following modifications:

5 (Moderate Damage): The vehicle loses 1 SP and suffers a Glancing Hit.
6 (Serious Damage): The vehicle loses 1 SP and sufferes a Penetrating Hit.

Modifiers (AP1 bonus, etc) apply to any additional hits suffered as normal.

That's my first thoughts. Still needs some work probably.

[Sir Biscuit]

Most vehicles are FINE as they are. I mean, it's not like mech of all things needs a boost. Stick to making walkers better, and forget about structure points for anything else.

Mostly, walkers (specifically melee walkers) suffer from only one glaring weaknesses:
-They are easy to destroy at range.
-Monstrous creatures eat them alive.

Honestly, they should be able to be killed at range. That should be the primary way of taking them out. The problem is that even light anti-tank weapons do a good job of it now.

The second one is worth looking at, if for no other reason than to knowledge that monstrous creatures, while effective against them, are actually not great. Sure, Carnifex's wreak them, but the VAST majority of monstrous creatures are only S6. S6, even with 2d6 pen and multiple attacks, is hardly an insta-kill on walkers. When walkers fight monstrous creatures, they SHOULD tear each other apart, which means a lot of damage on the dreadnought and a lot of wounds on the creature.

I think you can actually fix both problems by upping all walkers armor by 1 on the front and side facings. (Excluding "scout" walkers like sentinels.) The jump from AV12-13, or especially 13-14, is quite significant. Hell, just changing from 12-13 changes the average MC penatration roll from a pen to a glance.

If you really think they should be even tougher, (and after an armor raise I'm not convinced they should be,) then give them a 5+ invuln "dodge" save against shooting as well. After all, it's much more difficult to hit a walker than any other type of vehicle, especially one that is fully aware and a veteran of hundreds of years of warfare.

Regardless of the solution you choose, just be aware that walkers are a tricky issue. It's very easy to make them too good, especially at their current points cost. Remember, a dreadnought may lose to a Carnifex, but the dread is fifty five points cheaper.

[Madness]

I like the idea of structural points but I think it should be simplified.

First: how they (might) work. When you receive a damage you can decide to cancel the damage by forfeiting a structural point. After the roll on the damage table. At the owning player's discretion.

Vehicles with a (maximum) AV of 10 get no SP.
Vehicles with a max AV of 11-12 get 1 SP.
Vehicles with a max AV of 13-14 get 2 SPs.
Vehicles with a max AV of 15+ get 3 SPs.