Big kits and GW's current model direction.

[YorkNecromancer]

So, we're in the ages of Knights, Wraithknights, and giant, giant kits.

So what do people think about living in the age of the action figure?

Because that's kind of how this feels to me. The big kits have always held an appeal, simply because they're big. I remember the first time I plonked my home-made Baneblade on the table back in the days of 2nd ed, and how awesome it was to have a huge model in the army. But the thing is, GW just seems to be turning into an action figure company whose figures are well overpriced and require assembly.

Here's some examples of what I mean:


This is a Nightmare figure (from the game Soul Calibur). They're about thirteen years old now; I got mine back in 2001. You can get this figure on the eBay for around £15 now. It's the size of a Wraithknight, and came pre-painted. It's easily as detailed as a GW kit too. You could easily use this as a conversion for a Lord of Skulls, or just base it properly and use it as a FW daemon prince.


This is a close-up of Talisac, a MacFarlane figure from the 'Tortured Souls' range. Now, yes, that's a promo shot, but I can tell you now: the actual figure looks exactly like that. Seriously, the level of detail was easily as good as Forge World. The figures cost around £11 new, and can be found for £ to £4 on eBay. They came pre assembled and prepainted, and could easily be converted to some kind of super-grotesque.


This is 'Mifune's Last Stand', a MacFarlane model from their line of 'Matrix' toys. It cost £30, and is the size of a Warhound Titan. It came exactly as it looks there, painted and assembled. The Mifune figure himself isn't great, but look at that mech. I have one on my mantlepiece and I can tell you now, those pistons all work. It is an unbelievable kit, and it sold for less than a Land Raider.

LESS THAN A LAND RAIDER.

Here's one of the craziest examples I'm going to use.



That's the 2002 resculpt of Trap-Jaw, and that is a LOVELY sculpt. Look at the detail there. Yeah, he's got joins and seams etc, but seriously. Look at how detailed that figure is! He cost me £7 new, and is the same size as the Nightmare figure, if not a little taller. If you filled in the joins, tooks off the mould lines, painted and based him? He'd look amazing.

He's the same size as Nagash.

Here's the point I'm making: GW is not the best manufacturer of large scale kits. They do make lovely kits, don't get me wrong... But the Wraithknight is an action figure. Nagash is an action figure. These huge, large-scale models? They're nothing special when you compare them to what the other companies - other companies who aren't afraid to call themselves toy companies - are putting out. For less. Pre-assembled. And painted.

The thing that GW does better than anyone else, IMO, is the inch-high infantry we all know and love. Yes, there are competitors for them now. Anvil Industries, Prodos, PP, and so on. But GW is the only one to reliably product styrene kits which allow conversion potential like no other. That to me seems to be their unique selling point. Which is why I'm kind of against these huge kits; by the time you get to something that big, I tend to think: 'Yeah, it's nice, but this company does something nicer which costs 10% of what you're charging me.'

And I say that as someone who spends most of his hobby time converting and painting, so I love new kits, especially unassembled and unpainted.

What do other people think? Am I wrong to find the larger kits mildly insulting as a concept?

[Gotthammer]

I get what you mean. I mean the Zoids High End Master Model line are [URL="http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10228926"]super detailed, poseable and a helluva lot cheaper[/URL]. For example the Iguan is 13cm tall and costs around $30-40 usd depending where you buy from:



And a Sabre Tiger is around $50 - 60:





And I picked up this statue of Rachel from Ninja Gaiden that's 12" tall for a tenner:

[Mr Mystery]

I'm going to come out on the side of the big kits. Because they're more than just an action figure.

A big kit is the centrepiece of a collection. Whether it's unpainted, or a heavily converted Golden Daemon winning paintjob, they're absolutely fantastic things.

Just the other day I picked up a Maggoth Rider (assembled as Bloab). Whilst not the biggest of kits, it's impressive all the same, and went together like a dream.

Now rather than compare them to collectible toys as above, let's compare them to other games companies offerings. PP do their really big kits, and to be honest I find them daft looking. I've seen a few in the flesh, and whilst of impressive scale, I just don't see the same quality of detail as GW manage. And the best bit? GW continuously strive to improve those kits. The Baneblade was their first big offering in plastic - and it's pretty cool. Then came the Stompa, followed by the Shadowsword. All very nice kits, and a decent balance between a practical gaming miniature and a collectors piece. The Imperial Knight has knocked that up another notch, as has Nagash, and from the look of it, Glottkin.

To date, I can't think of any GW kit (not including FW for obvious reasons) on that scale that's a pain in the bum to put together, necessitating pinning etc. That to me is a big win for the overall design ethos. Because as much as their are world class modellors in our hobby, with skills to make your hands cry, there are also total noobs - youngsters who have just joined, and somehow wangled the biggest kit they can out of their parents/relatives. And they can, with a bit of patience, get decent results out of the kits as well (though take away the patience, and like most model kits, they're an abomination waiting to happen!)

I had one of those Matrix things about 11 years ago, and damned nice it was too (though I'm sure I paid more than £30 ). Trouble it.....it broke. Was moving house, and one of the arms came away at the shoulder. And you couldn't get the controls into the dudes hands because of how they'd been designed. Where it broke could not be repaired, so it wound up in the bin.

[YorkNecromancer]

Now rather than compare them to collectible toys as above

Give me a reason why not.

Yes, GW's big kits are better than most other wargaming companies, but they're only in line with other toy manufacturers. And every company strives to improve their kits!



See?

Now, if you were to say something like: "Well, other companies aren't making action figures for a wargame", well, what about that recent news that neither was GW? That they do the model first, then leave the rules as an afterthought?

If they want to be judged as a model manufacturing company - a toy manufacturing company - they don't get to pick and choose their rivals! We can't say "GW's the best in the business... so long as we ignore all those guys over there doing stuff that's as good, only cheaper."

If people want to say GW are the best in the model business, that's fine... but the second those 'models' become action figure sized, then why can't we compare them to actual action figures? Because I'll tell you now, MacFarlane toys in the early 2000's were WAY better than GW at producing large-scale kits. WAAAAAY better.








All these pictures are of models that are the same size as Nagash and which sold for under £15.

If people are interested in others, have a look here: [url]http://www.spawn.com/toys/categorytype.aspx?categoryid=8[/url]

The bottom line: GW's kits aren't 'the best in the world'. At all. They're good. But there are people who are arguably better, and who don't charge the insano prices.

I mean, check out the Blair Monster:

How is that any different in quality to the Chaos Spawn stuff that FW produces? Or the new Glottkin? Yes, it could be painted a little more professionally, the gaps could be filled... But come on. That is a quality model.

[ShadowcatX]

If the only reason you buy models from GW is because they look cool, then yes, you're massively over paying. But I doubt very many people do that. They buy models because the models are more than just the models themselves, they're part of a game. You can pretend that they're the same, just like I can pretend my honda is a porshe, but that doesn't make it so.

[YorkNecromancer]

You can pretend that they're the same, just like I can pretend my honda is a porshe, but that doesn't make it so.

That's a false analogy. Honda and Porsche have different performances. Models don't. They either look good or they don't. If they don't, they can be converted and repainted.

Unless you're buying them for the brand loyalty? To be seen as the big spender and score extra points of social status? I've always despised Veblen goods personally, and loathe the fact GW aims to/ believes it has become one. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_Good[/url]

Action figures are raw material. GW don't support or endorse tournaments any more, so why not? Why not convert/field these things?

[ShadowcatX]

Models don't.

Oh really? Show up with your action figures at any tournament, tell me how they perform.

[Gotthammer]

That's also why I posted the Zoids - come as a kit, require the same amount of modelling skill IMO and have more details for a significant fraction of the cost:







(plus they come pre-coloured so you don't have to paint them if you don't want to)





It's a similar sized model kit to model kit comparison.

[YorkNecromancer]

Oh really? Show up with your action figures at any tournament, tell me how they perform.

I would, if I played at tournaments.

And tournaments =/= wargaming as a hobby. It's quite possible to be a serious wargamer without ever going to one. (I pretty much breathe wargaming, but my interest in tournament play is roughly the same as my interest in attending a BDSM club. It'd probably be a fascinating place to visit, but it'd leave me feeling bored and a little sad very quickly).

If my mates wanted to field a converted Zoid (that sabre-toothed cat thing is awesome) or something as a Tau Riptide or whatever, I'd let 'em.

I mean, I've got one of my own, and I think it's pretty sweet.

[url]http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?38689-Imperial-Guard-121st-Bifrosti-Riptide[/url]

[ShadowcatX]

I would, if I played at tournaments.

And since I drive the speed limit my honda's a porshe, right?

If my mates wanted to field a converted Zoid or something as a Tau Riptide, I'd let 'em.

If my friends wanted to field a zoid as a riptide I'd laugh him out of the room.