Get on the same page and stop being Rats to the GW Piper (7e (6.1e))

[RexScarlet]

If you are spending an hour debating which type of game to play, I politely suggest that the issue is not with GW but with you and/or the people you are gaming with.

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GW leading was out of context, GW just needs to answer questions. sorry there.
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We need to unite on just a few pages, as it is now, no one is united on anything, except individual tournaments, which in turn have groups following, that is a good thing for the community.
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You have to discuss/debate before any game with a "New" opponent (start-up games are the majority, and the driving force, small garage groups do not have the issues)
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And, yes, it can take an hour easily...
Let alone tracking down what rule publications actually exist, not to mention the Beardy players that own Adobe, that could make the E-rules say whatever they choose to an unsuspecting player ROFL, I am kidding here...
But you get the jist, it is a pain, and a waste of time to constantly discuss/debate, why shuffling and playing type 2 is taking over table-tops (That was a MTG reference, which I do not actually play BTW)

[RexScarlet]

My friends and I enjoy the current release strategy and we love new stuff like the Imperial Knights coming out. It adds more variety to our games. If "The Community" decides not to follow those rules, why should my friends and I be excluded from the wider Warhammer scene simply for playing the game we want to play. Trying to artificially impose some nonsensical and subjective version of what the meta should be (in your eyes) will just exclude people who don't want to play like that. It's contrary to the "play how you want" idea that's been central to Warhammer since its inception.

Thank you, and I understand what you were trying to convey, but;
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Pew-Pew is a sound a laser makes when it shoots, as in; my Sisters Barbie shoots your GI Joe, Pew-Pew...
A Pew-Pew game is NOT the topic means; players can always play however they choose, Pew-Pew...
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Start-up, one-off, and new players are the ones being hurt by the plethora of rules, as no one is agreeing, and many are confused.
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Garage groups (groups of friends) are usually never affected.
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[Wildeybeast]

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GW leading was out of context, GW just needs to answer questions. sorry there.
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We need to unite on just a few pages, as it is now, no one is united on anything, except individual tournaments, which in turn have groups following, that is a good thing for the community.
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You have to discuss/debate before any game with a "New" opponent (start-up games are the majority, and the driving force, small garage groups do not have the issues)
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And, yes, it can take an hour easily...
Let alone tracking down what rule publications actually exist, not to mention the Beardy players that own Adobe, that could make the E-rules say whatever they choose to an unsuspecting player ROFL, I am kidding here...
But you get the jist, it is a pain, and a waste of time to constantly discuss/debate, why shuffling and playing type 2 is taking over table-tops (That was a MTG reference, which I do not actually play BTW)

It is a bit more of an issue with start/pick up games, but not that much. People first getting into the game are going to come in with the core rule set, then progress onto other things when they are good and ready. Whether it's through a GW store, an indy or a friend, no gamer worthy of the name is going to chuck a noob straight into a game of planetsrike with super heavies and fortifications.

I appreciate your concerns, but I really don't think it is the issue you are worried it is. The community isn't united behind one type of game because of apathy or ignorance, but because they don't want to be. People like being able to do different things and most people welcome the myriad new types of game. If you don't like them, you don't have to play them, or buy the stuff. The internet really would be up in arms if either GW or some 'community leaders' tried to impose one particular play style and associated costs on people.

[daboarder]

The Community needs to get together (this has nothing to do with Pew-Pew);
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This is GW's new idea; [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem[/url]
Wheat and chessboard problem
Imagine the squares were codices/supplements/FaQs/etc. and the grains of rice/wheat were RULES, now the cause and effect/affect of each rule on another rule is the total.
Pretty simple really, KINSS; Keep It Not Simple Stupid. (see below)
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GW's new approach (6e) is everything including the kitchen sink is allowed, the more rules, the harder for the Interwebs to figure out, and thus BREAK the game (finding good units and lists verses crap units). (Helldrake was a good example of this, crap unit, FaQ drop, great unit)
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Breaking the game; makes GW units/products (crap units) sit on shelves and collect dust (= no sales).
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GW's old approach was every other edition;
Make bad units in the game great in the new edition.
Make great units in the game bad in the new edition.
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But the Interwebs were able to adjust and break the new edition/game in about a year (Fantasy 8e), and when a new book dropped, 30 days or less the Interwebs broke that also, so GW is seeing a slump in sales, and seeing product/stock that does not move. (Chaos Spawn was a good example of this, as Spawn were voted worst unit in both Fantasy and 40K, but now in 6e, they are good).

So, now we have GW dropping tons of rules, that are constantly changing the game, and the community is arguing up a storm, if to allow the rules or not, if players should or should not have copies of rules or not, models, blah, blah.
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So, if GW does release a 7e (or 6.1e), it will be in an attempt to wrestle control back from the Interwebs, and to force the community to use everything including the kitchen sink, because it will ALL be in a Main rulebook, as opposed to now, with supplements/extra scenario books/FW allowed/Fortification in box rules/etc. which are an option that are not in the main rulebook, and big tournaments and communities are saying no way to them.
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On the entire chessboard there would be 264 − 1 = 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 grains of rice/wheat, weighing 461,168,602,000 metric tons, which would be a heap of rice larger than Mount Everest. This is around 1,000 times the global production of rice in 2010 (464,000,000 metric tons).[7]
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Stop arguing and agree, Community, Indy Game Stores, and Tournaments get together!
Make a stand either for or against everything including the kitchen sink.
Making two types of Tournaments was a great start, now spread that to all Tournaments of all sizes in all Venues (local Tournaments), stop being individuals, and get together and make a stand.
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Stop being Rats to the GW Piper...

Note; Pew-Pew is not the subject.
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If that really is GW's goal then,

1) they're pretty bad at it, most of the new releases have few permutations (NOT A NEGATIVE STATEMENT!)
2) They are underestimating the processing power of the collective community. Its not a single person trying to solve the "efficiency" problem GW would be trying to present, its more like a million.

[Denzark]

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Yes, but the community has more influence and insight than GW on fair play (and time constraints, etc.)
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News, I think I forgot to put 7e (6.1e) on my original post, but it is really about the vomiting of rules onto the community at an alarming rate.

Firstly, I disagree that the community has more influence - no evidence and if it did the situation you are describing would not exist. Second, more insight? See other threads where people are discussing whether or not the sheer amount of rules is the great leveller - if you play non-modified, you have to take a reasonably all-comers list or risk the D smashing your star-list.

Lastly, this 'vomiting of rules' - most people were whinging about the relase schedule. Now 6+ codexes in a year is bad?

Never happy eh?

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

but seriously think about it we just spent 5 pages complaining that you want other people to make a decision for you as to how to play 40k.... does that make any sense to you what so ever? here is an idea look to your local area and see who wants to play what and that will dictate what you can and cannot play. my local meta doesn't care we use forge world we use suppliments data slates escalation and strong hold.... its easy you come bring nn army you can game or you can choose to not game... i like having deision.. hell im about to roder forge world eldar in exchange for the magnatization of my lucius pattern warhound which i will be using and if you don't want to play against it guess what.... you don't someone else does... not sure how this is so complicated... the sky is not falling we finally have absolute freedom and you sheep are panicing because there is no sheppard to tend to the flock... seriously look at the LVO and Torrent of fire both were very sucessful events and yet completely different tournaments and from what i've heard they all had fun... jeeze peple is this so hard to contemplate? you want vanilla you can have vanilla you want mint chocolate chip[ you can have mint chocolate chip you want sprinkels you can have sprinkle you want carmel you can have carmel.. so enjoy the diversity. thrive on the idea that each meta will be unique and that there is no one build to rule them all. everyone and i mean everyone has a chance at vicotry savor it... for the love of god or go line up behind the horses and walk into the glue factory becuase i am sick of hearing the interwebs cry and whine. 90% of the crap on here is your complaints sheesh stop being sheep and figure it out for yourselves.

[DarkLink]

Lastly, this 'vomiting of rules' - most people were whinging about the relase schedule. Now 6+ codexes in a year is bad?

Never happy eh?

When so many of the rules are so shoddy. There's already half a dozen ambiguous rules questions regarding Knight Titans buzzing around that will need an FAQ (which GW won't give us), the Legion of the Damned codex auto-loses turn 1 if you don't have allies because they were too lazy to do much more than copy/paste their rules out of the SM codex. A high quantity of quality rules, which is achievable, would be great. Lots of crappy rules is cool, we're getting something at least, but there will be complaints, and GW will deserve that criticism.

[Learn2Eel]

(Helldrake was a good example of this, crap unit, FaQ drop, great unit)

I'll not bother with the rest of this....charade....but I will highlight this one part. The Heldrake was already a very strong unit even before the FAQ, just one that wasn't necessarily over-powered or broken. The FAQ was what really stuffed it up though by making it ignore the usual limitations that other flyers suffer from, plus the buff to Vector Strikes.

[Charon]

Firstly, I disagree that the community has more influence - no evidence and if it did the situation you are describing would not exist. Second, more insight? See other threads where people are discussing whether or not the sheer amount of rules is the great leveller - if you play non-modified, you have to take a reasonably all-comers list or risk the D smashing your star-list.

Lastly, this 'vomiting of rules' - most people were whinging about the relase schedule. Now 6+ codexes in a year is bad?

Never happy eh?

There are lots of '"non-star lists/armies" which already had a medicore/bad standing. They also get smashed. Even more now. What did they do to deserve it? Or is it more a case of "hey your army sucked before D and now it sucks even more. Not to big of a change for you guys"
Also releasing rules in a faster pace is nice. IF they have QUALITY. Currently there are so much flawed rules around which never do get any clarification. Auto lose on LOTD without allies, many cases of RAI vs RAW.
Yes in short I dislike waiting half a year for my new bike. But I take the waiting time GLADLY if the alternative is a bike with parts missing I have to rig myself somehow knowing that the manufacturer simply doesnt care.
My Eldar Jetbike sprues say 1992... they are not the fastes with updating either... unless of course you play space marines.

[daboarder]

There are lots of '"non-star lists/armies" which already had a medicore/bad standing. They also get smashed. Even more now. What did they do to deserve it? Or is it more a case of "hey your army sucked before D and now it sucks even more. Not to big of a change for you guy

This is the case and a good example of much of the hypocrisy in the community. So mamy people who look for any fluff justification or claim nerfs and removal of units is for " game balance" are the first to cry fowl when the boots on the other foot.