Pandora's box?

[Iyandagar]

Been awhile since I felt the need, the need for speed.... Ok wrong setting, need to reply to a thread. I. LOVE. MY. CHAOS. SPACE. MARINE. ARMY....

Of the 7 armies I field it is the Chaotic lunatics that I most enjoy, whether it is old Abs chopping folk up (which he does with aplomb) or Khârn trying to out chop his pal Abs, which occasionally he does whilst growling suitable blood related insults and or offerings to the Dice Gods. My Heldrakes, plural indeed, however in almost 7 months or so of having two I believe I have fielded them together but twice. I love the versatility of my obliterators, one minute popping tanks, next plating up a nice Plasma cooked Marine pie. Marines, oh yeah, Nurgle Marines are just beautiful I don't care what Galaxy you are from, watching the majority of my opponents small arms fire ping uselessly from their poorly maintained armour never ceases to amuse.

I field my Maulerfiend sometimes, most times it never even gets to take a step as it's leg will invariably get shot off and then he sits there hurling insults to get someone to walk over and engage it in a punch up... It rarely works but hey I love the paint job so don't mind him catching the rays watching his chaotic pals getting neck deep in action.

Be'Lakor, seriously outstanding. I love that little soul especially when he is throwing his puppet Mastery nonsense around. And should somebody get him to step up to the plate he knocks the snot out of them without really bothering to flex a wing. I loved him so much I bought the model, no proxy nonsense here, no sirree Bob. Cypher.... Let's just say he's arriving in the post sometime next week and frankly I can't wait, just a shame I'll never get to field him against Dark Angels, they are one of my other armies... Oooooh and Jim The Lord of Skulls, no idea how I will fit him into anything other than apoc. Battles but by jingo I can't wait to see him trundle around the battlefield.

So what if I roll Spawnhood way too often, it's all good fun in the end.

Do I win?

Actually yes I do quite often when they get fielded.

Also been tabled horrifically once or twice...

But nobody will ever get me to see them as not worth the bother. Wim or lose I enjoy fielding them... All sorts of list builds, not just the usual few units.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

@POP

[Removed] the legion's aren't dead... read a book. [Removed] you might just might actually see that the legions aren't dead... instead we have to listen to you complain beause a vocal group actually wants to be able to play legion rules.. funny loyalists were just given legions rules... and will have them in forgeworld as well... hmm they both will have them... who ever would have thought that was possible... so again read a book.

[MrBo]

Honestly, since the release of belakor and cypher, my interest has increased ten fold.
I don't feel either are over the top game changers, merely new ways to play a stale codex.
Now ,with cypher,that i can field multiple infiltrating units of chosen without the randomness, I feel I can finally bring out raptors as a sensible mop-up crew.
And that's just the start, I think with the new dataslates all kinds of new combinations will be available.

[Popsical]

@POP
Might want to calm down there son. the legion's aren't dead... read a book. no seriously read an effing book and you might just might actually see that the legions aren't dead... instead we have to listen to you complain beause a vocal group actually wants to be able to play legion rules.. funny loyalists were just given legions rules... and will have them in forgeworld as well... hmm they both will have them... who ever would have thought that was possible... so again read a book.

Take a chill pill Rom baby.
I was having a larf. I find the endless bleating about CCSM quite funny tbh.
Honestly tho, the traitor legions of old are now covered with their primarchs and will soon get the demon primarchs.
Why would GW make a copy of what is already done by FW?
FW are going to produce possessed models by the look of things too.
GW will continue to make 40k CM different to the legions of old because its good business to make variance.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

@pop

when that becomes a reality then you will see a large section of the chos fan base move their armies over to the 30k realm. i know i for one will as soon as i get the oppertunity my death guard and my world eaters will be legion companies not some waterdown pathetic excuse. so i say bring it on most of my collections are already at the point where i no longer buy GW i buy forgeworld proper and honestly its worth the money and the wait when compared to the crap i getfrom gw.

[Garradh]

It took all of three games and two purchases to upgrade my 3.5 Iron Warriors to a 6th Black Legion list. Lots of stuff got left by the wayside, but I thoroughly enjoy the list I currently run. Abaddon with Tzeentch terminators in a Land Raider, Khornate Chosen, two regular squads of Cheapmarines, and a squad of Cultists in a bunker with a quad gun. I might have squeezed a Heldrake in there too and simply forgot about it. I played that list five or six times in 6th and hung up my spurs, it ate things alive.

Having said that, I see why people think there's a lot wrong with the new codex. When I'm not playing the Black Legion list I love playing my first CSM love, World Eaters. In the new edition this is best described as "tricky" and "unfluffy" as there's no point in taking true Khorne Berserkers. While I personally like the Champions rules just for pawning off the challenge with a squad leader instead of Kharn or Abaddon, again I can see where it's damaging to units without Fearless. I think that's what the complaint boils down to - CSMs, even with VotLW, do not compare to Loyalists. GW completely underestimates how powerful ATSKNF is.

As for buying new models - eh. Eh? Eh. I bought a Hellturkey because you can't not take one, they're too good. The other demon engines are IMO too big and too easy to kill, so I never bought them even though I suppose I can see where a Maulerfiend would be fun against gunline armies (except it won't live to cross the field). Warp Talons look awesome but no, Mutilators need a Land Raider delivery system and honestly CSM Terminators do the job just as well but can shoot.

I feel C:CSM suffers from the melee mindset of 5th Ed in a shooty 6th ed. It's a fine codex. It's not a good codex.

[Anggul]

I think the book would be lovely if they had just done the thing which I think is a total no-brainer. Give everything access to the cult rules.

By far the worst thing about the codex is that you can have (for example) Plague Marines with FnP... and then the Lord leading them can't have it, nor can the Chosen, or the Terminators, or indeed anything else. Just the standard Marines. Why can't the Havocs be Plague Marine Havocs? The same goes for only Berserkers having WS5 and FC, when their higher-up brethren who have earned the right to wear Terminator Armour (which when it comes to a Khorne army means you're a better fighter) don't.

The thing people seem to misunderstand is that it isn't necessarily the specific Legions that people want. It's the ability to make their army fluffy and all have the same rules. Not all Plague Marines are Death Guard, not all Berserkers are World Eaters, not all Noise Marines are Emperor's Children. It isn't about Legions, it's about a lack of (what have come to be known as) 'cult' rules across the army. That, I think, is the main problem with the codex. I don't even play Chaos, but I feel really sorry for, as an example, my friend who plays Death Guard, and has a core of Plague Marines which are tougher than his Lord (when not using Typhus), Terminators and Havocs for no conceivable reason. There's no reason he shouldn't be allowed to upgrade them to have FnP to represent that they're Plague Marines in Terminator Armour, or Plague Marine Havocs.

Can you imagine if under the Space Marines Chapter Tactics it said: 'Only your Tactical Marines get half of this. No reason, we've just decided that all of those other units don't get it.'? It would be ridiculous, people would be calling them up on it all over the place and deriding it as one of the most stupid and pointless things they've ever seen, totally breaking the fluff and immersion. That's exactly what those poor CSM players have to deal with.

It's like having an Iron Hands army, but only the Tactical Marines get the FnP. It's like having a White Scars army, but only the Tactical Marines have Hit & Run. It's like having a Space Wolves army, but only the Grey Hunters have Counter Attack. It's like having a Blood Angels army, but only the Tactical Marines have The Red Thirst. It's like having an Imperial Fists army, but only the Tactical Marines have Bolter Drill.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. It breaks fluffy immersion, which is what the game is all about. Again, I don't play CSM, but I completely understand why the codex was a let-down. Fluffy immersion is a huge deal, and it fails on that point in so many ways.

[Baneblade]

While I think the current codex is far better than the abomination that was the previous codex, it does leave me wanting in some aspects. I want more fluff options and restriction. If the Imperials can have 9 tactics to fit the fluff then why can't the Traitors have 10? One for the each of the legions, and the 10th to represent the renegades.

Add some fluffy restrictions as well. There is no reason that the Emperor's Children should take fortifications. They will not lower themselves to did in the muck, that is for lesser legions like the Iron Warriors. Likewise the Iron Warriors should be forced to take a fortification, since that is the first thing they do in any engagement, dig the trench line and move in gun emplacements. Death Guard are foot sloggers and should not take bikes, but fluff and history be damned when there is a way to take T6 marines. The Imperials are able to take allies from their own book by using different chapter tactics in their detachments. Why can't the Traitors. Why shouldn't there be the possibility of Kharn attacking his allied detachment of Emperor's Children? After all that is how he got the title of "Betrayer."

GW can make the legions distinct, but very able to make them radically different from the FW legions. After all these are not the same legions during the heresy. They are broken, scattered, or lost to the warp. A Word Bearers list should play differently from the Black Legion, even though they are the most "open minded" of the Chaos legions. Creating a lesser Dark Apostle like the BA Sanguinary Priests that can be passed around to different units would create flavor. Make Fabius Bile a character that can be taken by any force regardless of legion traits, since he sells his service to any warband, but for fluff purposes have a disadvantage for joining a Black Legion warband (Abbadon is still sour on the whole try to clone Horus stunt). Renegades should have a greater Imperial influence in their options since they rebelled later. Simple things like having some units have access to assault cannons but are limited to a 10 man squads due to their organization being shaped by the Codex. Bring back the Lieutenant level HQ and add some fun rules to represent the paranoia of the Lord or the ambition of the Lieutenant to back stab the lord.

If it was Too Long and you did not read, here is the summary. Add fluffy rules to make each warband unique and have different play styles. If the Iron Hands can have the old school bionics rules for the entire list, then the CSM can have their legion flair. However keep the advantages and disadvantages level so that we do not have the case of the 3.5 Iron Warriors. A WAAC player should not be able to look at one legion as the default. Every legion needs to viable but different. I know that this is a tall order, but that is my wish.

[Popsical]

@pop

when that becomes a reality then you will see a large section of the chos fan base move their armies over to the 30k realm. i know i for one will as soon as i get the oppertunity my death guard and my world eaters will be legion companies not some waterdown pathetic excuse. so i say bring it on most of my collections are already at the point where i no longer buy GW i buy forgeworld proper and honestly its worth the money and the wait when compared to the crap i getfrom gw.

I mainly buy FW and my only army left in 40k is a FW list too. I still like some of the studio figures but im selective to the extreme.
So i can empathise a little with you.

Look at what almost all of you want from CCSM, and you will see that GW dont do models for cult termies or havocs etc etc.
Sure you can convert, but... other companies will sneak in on the void and GW will lose sales.
They simply will NOT allow that to happen again if possible.

Look at the figs needed:
Khorne termies
Tzeentch termies
Nurgle termies
Slaanesh termies
Slaanesh raptors
Khorne raptors
Tzeentch raptors
Nurgle havocs
Etc etc etc.

Yes i hear you cry "upgrade sprues" and youd be right. Im just not sure GW wants to continue with upgrade sprues.

[daboarder]

umm.....paintjobs work for loyalists......And those options already exist......

so....


strawman?