The argument PRO-Gargantuan Creature Lords of War

[Akaiyou]

Escalation is over powered? Are gargantuan creatures that much of a threat?

How absurd is it? Is that a reflex reaction to omg forgeworld which has been a prevalent thing in 40k since the creation of forgeworld itself or is it grounded in logic? SH/GC and those crazy fortifications are now just as legal as Allies. Allies wasn't the 'new normal' either, and allows for the most ridiculous combos in 40k yet people came to terms with it. So why not come to terms with all the new things as well? (read an article on BoLs on this aswell) people are quick to say 'the sky is falling!' when something new arrives in 40k i've seen it happen for 8 years and the dust always settles and people learn to play it and accept it. Most of you have been in the hobby for a while so i'm sure you've taken notice of how this particular edition is making everything considered OP legal for everyone. Flyers, Allies, 40k Approved units in forgeworld, Bigger Kits in Codexes (riptides, wraithknights, trygons), Fortifications and now SH/GC. That entire list was NOT there in the previous edition or ones before it (except allies which had it's day in the sun ages ago and was then removed). So if everyone has all this OPness available to them already isn't that a level playing field?

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Mathematically forgeworld units have been known to be not as efficient as codex units for a long time with some exceptions. If you play Tyranids, compare the now FULLY LEGAL to use Lord of War - Barbed Hierodule (i own this guy). He's 565 pts (pretty expensive), has Gargantuan Creature rules which are nice but not all that different from monstrous creature rules and he comes with 2 Bio-Cannons. S10 AP3 Assault 6 guns. Which he can fire at different targets. Ballistic skill 3, so you can expect half of that to hit.

Is that OP? Sounds powerful right? Only until you actually look at the numbers. 3 hits from each gun at S10 can kill 2 rhinos a turn, or 1 land raider, or 5 space marines out of cover. Does it still sound so powerful? Maybe you'll argue 'It's not the damage output that's too powerful, it's how hard to kill a gargantuan creature is that makes it too powerful!' But again...if you look at the actual numbers the story is the complete opposite. That same Barbed Hierodule that will at best kill 5 space marines and costs 565 points has stats nearly IDENTICAL to an ELDAR WRAITHKNIGHT. If you can kill a 240 point Wraithknight then you can by all means also kill most gargantuan creatures. They are T8 with a 3+ armour save and 6 wounds. That's exactly like a wraithknight difference being that you cant instant kill a GC, and need to wound on a 6 when using sniper/poison rules. Other than that 3 units of devastators with missile launchers/lascannons which add up to 390 pts or 450 pts respectively can kill both a wraithknight and most gargantuan creatures in 1 turn of shooting. So after getting over the initial 'omg forgeworld' reaction and looking at the actual stats of these units it's clear to me that the one with the advantage is the player not bringing one of these. Hell for 565 pts an eldar player can bring 2 wraithknights and a wraithlord. That's more than 2x as hard to kill, and has far greater damage output. Also note the guns are AP3. Anything with a 2+ save could careless.

An ork squiggoth has 8 wounds but a 4+ save. So it's a trade off there, but with S7 AP4 is super common. 3 units of chaos havoks with autocannons dropping 24 shots on it should have it removed before tea-time with the chaos gods. And in return a squiggoth will fire back with 2 S7 AP4 massive blasts..Tau and Eldar might worry slightly (cover saves can still be taken) but marines will dance in the rain and careless.

This is the reason why i asked the above question, because I also had that initial omg forgeworld reaction but then i looked at the stats and was like 'wow 565 pts and THOSE are the stats? I expected Toughness 9 or 10, or more wounds or something' then it occurred to me that i had seen those stats before in normal 40k already...bam! There's the lovely Wraithknight and people still play against wraithknights without much complaint. They play against riptides too who are much cheaper and do much more damage. So it dawned on me...6th edition IS about having the free option to bring these super units and having fun. That seems to be the full on intent. That's my 2 cents

[interrogator_chaplain]

Made this a few days ago to sum up my thoughts.

Honestly, I don't believe that this whole Escalation thing will be too bad. We'll all adapt, sure it might take a little more time than usual but seriously, I'm salivating at the prospect of being able to use my Stormblade (If my opponent will let me, I play Dark Angels) in a regular game.

[Sly]

1: Who demanded FW (or Titans) into 40k?
2: Who is complaining about Escalation in general, as opposed to the units with D-Class weapons (or, more specifically, to the D-Class weapons themselves)? Heck, if Escalation had a rule in it that limited D-Class weapons to Apocalypse, do you think the outcry would be even 10% of what it is now? I don't recall hearing anyone complain about any unit that does not have a D-class weapon.

[DarkLink]

A lot of people asked for non superheavy forgeworld. And, yes, the only real complaints are about str d, not about superheavies themselves, though the gargantuan creatures are better than superheavies. At least, the nastier ones are.

Side note, can you knock flying gargants out of the air? I haven't looked at the apoc rules closely enough to answer that.

[Arkhan Land]

Side note, can you knock flying gargants out of the air? I haven't looked at the apoc rules closely enough to answer that.

escalation says same rules as Flying Monstrous with escalation rules being the additions exceptions so yes they can be grounded

[DarkLink]

That's good. Otherwise the Harridan would be kind of rediculous.

[Brother Kendo]

To stay on Topic here. I dont know they fine rules for the Squiggoth, but based on stat lines only it looks much easier to deal with. The Wraithknight is by far the hardest to deal with, even when you yourself have one yourself.

[DarkLink]

The Wraithknight is the easiest to kill. It also is much, much weaker offensively. Gargantuan Creatures get a lot of buffs over Monstrous Creatures.

[Sly]

It's kind of a cherry-picked argument, and focuses on one aspect (defense per point spent) while ignoring mobility, offense, etc. Not that I think Superheavies without D-class weapons are so over the top, but picking a few units and saying "clearly the Lords of War units are not overpowered because THESE are fine" is not a reasonable argument. It's the strongest examples that would be used to argue if they're overpowered, not the weakest.

[DarkLink]

Agreed. That said, my competitive eldar could kill any of those three listed in the op in one shooting phase on roughly average dice. They're not too terrible.