What would GW have to do to drive you away?

[Kahoolin]

...If you haven't been driven away already that is.

I've been thinking about this after reading about GW's cease and desist letter to Board Game Geek, and reading the same indignant reactions events like this always generate, and I've been trying to work out what exactly GW would have to do to make me stop buying their products and playing their games. Frankly, aggressive IP protection isn't going to make me so mad that I abandon my hobby on moral grounds, and I've realized that very little would. That's right, I am having trouble coming up with any possible scenario that might drive me away from GW for any serious length of time.

I realized that I enjoy GW products for a complex web of reasons. I find them familiar and comforting because I've played since I was about 10. I remember the old days when it felt like GW products were created by gamers for the sole purpose of fun. I have seen the background grow into the huge and complex beast it is today, able to inspire nerds the world over into debates the equal of any Trek fan's. I really enjoy the creative aspect of painting and modeling. And, surprising as it may seem, I enjoy the flawed, vague game mechanics, because that's how it's always been and it makes for a relaxed game where I can leave the killer instinct and rules lawyering at home.

My other main love, even before GW, was D&D. With 4th edition D&D I abandoned the game completely. I read the book and it just . . . didn't feel like D&D any more. It was slick, and modern, and the mechanics felt like they simulated a video game RPG. I'm sure it's a great game, but it didn't give me that sense of connection to the first game of AD&D I played back in primary school. Why was there a Dragonman? Where was the Gnome Illusionist? Why had the Half-Orc turned into an emo anime dude with demon's blood? I haven't picked up a D20 since, but I still fondly read my old editions and *sniff* my Dragon magazines.

Now I think if GW rehashed 40k for example, and made the ruleset slick, and tight, and modern, and got rid of all the silly old things like the D6 base, I-Go-You-Go and the clunky AP mechanic I don't think I would want to play it anymore. Likewise if they changed the fluff so as to be unrecognizable.

Yet I WOULD still play - because I have armies of beautiful models I have collected, converted and painted. Even if I absolutely despised the rules and fluff, I would probably quit playing and buying books but keep buying Citadel minis just to paint. If the price of the minis got too high, I'd just buy the best ones :P I would always have the nostalgia of old GW and my shelf full of books to fall back on.

So basically, it seems to me that the only way I would stop buying GW/Citadel products completely is if the ceased to make them. Scary thought.

Internet moral outrage aside, is there anything really, honestly, that GW could do that would make you stop buying their stuff? If you have already stopped buying GW/Citadel products, like I have with D&D, please tell us why.

[lobster-overlord]

The only thing that made me even think about ditching GW was when they were toying with the idea of using Sabertooth Games to release a MageKnight like version of 40K on click bases. Now, I never found out if that rumor was true, but my distributor was adament that it was in the works. Thankfully, that partnership disolved completely. 40K doesn't need to be in card game, click-game, form anymore than MageKnight needed 2.0. The industry push was towards grabbing kids in, and then keeping them as adults, and for about 3 years, the prepainted game seemed to do it. Thankfully, those kids got sucked in and saw GW products and laughed off MK and HC and the like.

I stopped buying Star Wars products. That came out of the fact that there are too many products to choose from and I get OCD about collecting things (which would explain why every army I have can be fielded in Apocalypse but not on a regular table).

John M>

[Kahoolin]

Do you mean if they turned fantasy and 40k into clix games, or if they released a clix game? Because if they just released a clix game alongside the flagship games that wouldn't stop me buying their products - though there's no way in hell I'd buy the clix game.

If they turned the flagships into clix then yes, I would stop buying them too!

I really hope we get some more responses, I'm genuinely curious. Probably no-one comes to this end of the forum

[Melissia]

At the moment? They'd need to get rid of the Sisters as an official faction that can operate on their own in the tabletop, and then stop supporting the Imperial Guard or Orks. It'd be a pretty major thing if they did all of these.

[ColCorbane]

That's a very difficult question. Partly because I've got so much invest in this hobby and how much this hobby means to me. But also, I'm reaching the point where I'm not depending on GW for my hobby, I'm looking into using other ranges, buying off ebay, converting and scratch building.

I honestly can't think of anything that you make me walk away from the hobby, but then I've already distanced myself from GW.

[clkeagle]

Mentally and emotionally, I'm starting down a similar path as Col Corbane. I never forsee a time in my future where I don't have collections of Epic and 40k armies and terrain. But that's where it will probably end for me. Over the next few months, I'm going to greatly reduce my basement-sized collection to the handful of armies that I regularly use, and sell the rest.

I saw a comment on TTGN a few weeks ago about how GW has attempted to imprint "The GW Hobby" in gamers' minds, rather than "the tabletop wargame hobby." GW may be the largest supplier in this hobby, but they are far from the only one out there. In terms of miniatures they are kings, hands-down. Nobody is producing plastics with the quality or variety that GW has. But for me, that just isn't enough to keep me going back. The prices have grown far too high since I became a family man, and the quality of their rulesets has never matched their models. The only ruleset from GW that I have ever enjoyed playing is the old Epic 40,000 system. I have NEVER liked playing or teaching the rules for 40k. 2nd Edition was fun but slow, and to me, the "fun" aspect has been removed with each subsequent edition.

All we have left now are ancient and clumsy shooting/assault mechanics that are streamlined to sell large forces. But support for those forces is abysmal... it's a slap in the face to gamers NOT to have comprehensive, stop-gap army lists each edition (like 2nd and 3rd did). Lately I've taken to using Forge of War as an alternative 40k ruleset. The games have produced identical results and taken half the time to play. That has brought the fun back into it for me. I've played Epic:Armageddon enough to understand its appeal, but it isn't as enjoyable to me as Epic 40k. So that is the 6mm system that I still play, on those rare occasions I'm able to play it.

But I've also started branching out from GW altogether, especially with sales of my unused forces. There are too many other manufacturers that are now producing great ranges, especially at the increasingly-popular 15mm scale. I can sell a handful of unused 40k Tyranids and acquire a full army's worth of models from Rebel Minis or Critical Mass Games or Ground Zero. While "assembling" 15mm metal armies isn't as pleasurable as a new plastic GW set, it does let me model, paint, base, and field a game-ready army in a few evenings.

Another part of it is the corporate-vs-small-business feel to these manufacturers. Most of GW's interaction with veteran gamers these days seems to be from its legal department. On the other hand, when a 15mm manufacturer releases something new, the owner usually responds in person to comments and questions. After years of solely dealing with GW, it's a pretty cool concept to speak directly with designers/owners/sculptors.

So I guess my message to everyone here is, if there is anything that you don't like about GW, it's okay to look at other options. You never know when something will grab your interest.

[Lord Azaghul]

Hmm, I’m not really sure on this one. I think if my friends all stopped playing I’d stop too…

But what could gw do? Well they are about a stones throw from me quiting fantasty. They have pretty much ruined that game, and at the moment I’m just holding for the 8th ed hoping it repairs some of the damage – I just hope gw realizes that not everybody wants to play a ‘bad guy’ army (or even every bad guy army for that matter). In fact I’m expecting 8th to not fix anything, and thus bracing myself to ‘quit’. However that probably means my armies will sit in the closet until they get new books or the game become ‘fun’ again.

In 40k the price thing is driving me crazy, but that just means I spend more time searching the web for better deals and buying less at my local store. It also means I buy less frequently, and in smaller amounts.
I think if gw starting turning 40k into ‘hero hammer’ and starting throwing ‘uber pykers’ into the game what would begin to put me off. And if 40k begins to resemble the current start of fantasty I would probably just stop buying crap, sure I’d still play, but I’d gradually become bitter, and eventually hate the hobby altogether, make a last ditch effort to ‘keep up’ by buying SM then after 6 months realize that the game isn’t fun any more…but other then that I’m not sure.

[fuzzbuket]

My 3 gaming mates stopped playing
a) hated painting and winning **cheat**
B) lost rulebook and disliked painting
c) quit because a+b quit and played crons

but then 2 of my other freinds started playing
D) is a good gamer and is learning to paint off me
E) just likes buying and gaming!

if your mates stop playing show your other mates (if they like halo+ GOW they probably like 40k!)

[Wolfen]

They already drove me away:

Over priced products
Rules that are retarded at best and plain stupid at worst
Over priced products
Lack of support for other armies
Over feeding marines as the uber-non can beat me- type of army
Did I said over priced products and jokeable rules?

Besides that the fluff is stagnant --- there is allways an uber-apocalypse comming over the heads... but 1 of two things happen:
a) imperium wins and nothing happens
b) historically imperium have won and nothing happens

The story is not advancing... at all

The minis have quality as in Product, but most minis are just wron proportions and so on... not my thing

And I hate this "GW hobby" as if ONLY painting your army and has to be GW would be THE HOBBY

[Faultie]

They could:
Produce shoddy rules
Produce models I like less than alternatives
Poorly support the game
Make poor development decisions
Make poor business decisions
Cease support for armies which I have bought, assembled, and painted.
Increase cost to a level significantly beyond the alternatives
Create a game world that is interesting and fun, but translates to a less-enjoyable tabletop experience for myriad reasons

Wait...they already did.
I'm still here because I like the background, and too many models to quit.