One small tweak...

[Kyban]

Stop letting Phil Kelly write rules.

[This Dave]

It may not be a minor tweak but I would love to see Twin-Linked weapons actually be two separate weapons firing but still counting as one for damage results and such. This would make things like TL Shuriken Catapults useful and the TL Lascannons on a standard Land Raider dangerous tank killers.

[Katharon]

Stop letting Phil Kelly write rules.

Phil Kelly is, by far, one of the best rule writers at Games Workshop. Let me guess, you must like Matt Ward?

[DarkLink]

Phil Kelly is a terrible codex writer. Literally every single codex he has ever written in 40k, including the much vaunted Dark Eldar, inevitably devolved into monobuild lists. Typically, as is the case with Space Wolves and Eldar, the new codex becomes the new OP spammed lists that everyone hates to play against. Rarely, as is the case with CSM, it's the list that everyone, including CSM players, hate, because not only is it massively imbalanced in certain ways externally, but it so massively misrepresents what the army should be (e.g. actual Chaos Marines, rather than Heldrakes+Cultists+Bel'akor) that the bandwagoners are annoyed at the absolutely atrocious internal balance.

Matt Ward, in fact, actually does a pretty good job with internal balance, and with the exception of Grey Knights has done a good job with external balance as well. And the problem with Grey Knights was not the codex itself, but several fundamental flaws with 5th edition (abusable wound allocation buffed Draigowing, and broken vehicle rules led to the abundance of light vehicle spam, which Grey Knights can do better than everyone else). Once those two issues were fixed with 6th, GKs became a mid-level codex at best.

Not to mention, how many times has Phil Kelly introduced a rerollable 2++? Anyone who is not only incompetent enough to introduce it once, but in multiple units across multiple codices, is unworthy of any praise.

[Katharon]

Phil Kelly is a terrible codex writer. Literally every single codex he has ever written in 40k, including the much vaunted Dark Eldar, inevitably devolved into monobuild lists. Typically, as is the case with Space Wolves and Eldar, the new codex becomes the new OP spammed lists that everyone hates to play against. Rarely, as is the case with CSM, it's the list that everyone, including CSM players, hate, because not only is it massively imbalanced in certain ways externally, but it so massively misrepresents what the army should be (e.g. actual Chaos Marines, rather than Heldrakes+Cultists+Bel'akor) that the bandwagoners are annoyed at the absolutely atrocious internal balance.

Matt Ward, in fact, actually does a pretty good job with internal balance, and with the exception of Grey Knights has done a good job with external balance as well. And the problem with Grey Knights was not the codex itself, but several fundamental flaws with 5th edition (abusable wound allocation buffed Draigowing, and broken vehicle rules led to the abundance of light vehicle spam, which Grey Knights can do better than everyone else). Once those two issues were fixed with 6th, GKs became a mid-level codex at best.

Not to mention, how many times has Phil Kelly introduced a rerollable 2++? Anyone who is not only incompetent enough to introduce it once, but in multiple units across multiple codices, is unworthy of any praise.

Everything you just said is based on net-listing and power-gaming. In other word, PLAYERS. Players who take the codex written and intended by a guy who always plays the game for enjoyment and fluff. The first thing net-list lovers do when a new codex comes out is to find every exploitable point in the codex to make the next "lulz awesome-insta-win" tournament list. Phil Kelly put a Viking saga into the Space Wolf codex, that's pretty darned awesome.

Matt Ward on the other hand is the number one malefactor in the trend of codex creep. Each codex he wrote, from 5th Edition Space Marines to Grey Knights, was progressively more powerful and broken than the last -- by itself, without power-gamers even needing to look for power-combos.

Don't blame Kelly for the actions of players who purposefully twisted his army books until they wrung out some uber-list. Matt Ward on the other hand I do blame. I restarted Warhammer 40K after leaving behind 2nd Edition, coming back into the fold about mid-way through 5th. I picked up Vanilla Marines because I'd had a SM army back in 2nd. I was shocked by how strong they had become. When I saw Blood Angels come out my jaw was on the floor. By the time Grey Knights was released, I just gave up hope. The codex creep was in full power mode. Because of the overpowered combinations and certain special characters, I refused to take certain lists when playing my SM army. I wanted to have fun and actually have to use my brain to make tactical decisions -- not rely on an auto-win of any kind.

Grey Knights still have a stupidly strong codex, even in 6th. They're one of the only armies that can put 72 lascannon onto the board at the same time. They have monsterous creatures that can teleport around the board. They have a way of adding +1 strength to nearly every kind of ranged attack. There are so many different ways to make an overpowered GK list. The only reason you don't see much of them anymore is because most tournament players are also net-listers. They listen to the BS being played out around the net for the "best l33t" build for an army and the combinations that break an army list (referencing your 2++ reroll). Majority of tournament goers no longer build a list themselves, they just copy paste the best they can find (or if they think is the best) on the net.

[DarkLink]

...

Ok, gimme a bit, I'm trying to think of a way to respond to that without sounding rude.

[Katharon]

...

Ok, gimme a bit, I'm trying to think of a way to respond to that without sounding rude.

It's OK. I know that my argument is not perfect, just like I don't believe that Kelly is perfect. I simply make my opinion based on what I observe and use critical analysis. Kelly is not perfect, but he is certainly one of the best GW has.

[Demonus]

No issues with Phil Kelly other than the CSM Codex which feels like he half assed his way through.

As far as "tweaks", Id change Serpent Shield range to 36" and drop the +1, keep it d6 shots. Change some point costs here and there (Vallkyrie, etc). Disallow tau from allying with farsight (why have the restriction if you can just ally in?), not allow riptides their cheesey wargear bought "unit" status so they can add IC, etc.

[DarkLink]

Got dragged away by a game of cards.

Yeah, same for me with Matt Ward. I don't think any of the GW writers are particularly good. I happen to prefer Ward's rules overall, and I don't think Phil Kelly is the worst. He's at least consistant. Robin Cruddance is pretty hit or miss, Vetock is new to 40k so I don't really know him too well, and a lot of the older guys are... not so great.

And just to clarify, I'm referring specifically to rules alone. Fluff is a totally different story, and a much more subjective one. Some people despite Draigo, I think he's pretty funny, and very appropriate for 40k's blatant over the top-ness.

But as for the rules, I'll address Grey Knights first:

They're one of the only armies that can put 72 lascannon onto the board at the same time.

Jokaero aren't particularly good. They're immobile, fragile, with poor BS and Ld. I've heard of this list before, and I'm personally not impressed by it, and I've never actually seen anyone run a single Jokaero let alone 72, so I'm not really too concerned. Henchmen are useful, but other than the old Death Cult Assassin assault deathstar thing in 5th (which doesn't really work anymore) they're not particularly powerful. The DCA unit of death was super nasty in 5th, where you could hide cheap units in Razorbacks or Chimeras and assault out of them when your opponent got close and then just murder everything in assault, but that doesn't work in 6th for obvious reasons. Now, DCA are good, but you need a Land Raider or Raven to deliver them and they lack grenades and are only AP3 so they're not nearly as scary.

They have monsterous creatures that can teleport around the board.

Dreadknights are fairly nasty, but they're straight up outclassed by the Riptide and Wraithknight. Granted, the Dreadknight will kill both of them one-on-one in assault, but overall the Dreadknight is just too expensive for being so relatively fragile. T6, 4W, and a 5++ doesn't cut it for a nearly 300pt model. Most armies can bolter them to death, and that's not counting the plethora of grav guns, ion cannons, and massed str 6/7 firepower that Tau and Eldar can bring. They're not bad, but they're just outclassed by so much stuff out there.

They have a way of adding +1 strength to nearly every kind of ranged attack.

They still get outshot and outranged by Tau and Dark Eldar and Eldar and IG. They have very good medium ranged anti-infantry, yes, but they have no long range shooting outside of Psyrifle Dreadnoughts (which are good mainly against light vehicles, but that's not what anyone plays anymore, other than Serpent Spam and DE).

There are so many different ways to make an overpowered GK list.

This is actually the good thing about the GK codex. That is, the 'so many different ways' part, not the overpowered part. Which they aren't, not any more. Regardless, virtually every single unit in the book is solid. A few of the Inquisitorial options (assassins, non-Coteaz special characters) are terrible, and Brother Captains, Techmarines, and Brotherhood Champions are pretty crappy, but everything else is a viable options. Except Crowe. **** Crowe. That there is terrible design. But everything else is very good. You can literally randomly pick units from the codex and toss them together at a whim, and out pops a pretty decent army with relatively little tweaking. That is phenomenal codex design. The GK codex has extremely good internal balance.

However, multiple armies hard counter GKs. Which armies exactly depends on what type of GK list you're running. DE, Eldar, Tau, IG, and Daemons can all give GKs an extremely hard time. GKs can deal with all of those armies, but it's impossible to take an all-comers list that will deal with each of them. Draigowing and Land Raiders are the answer to Eldar and Tau, but are pretty bad against Daemons and DE, for example.

The only reason you don't see much of them anymore is because most tournament players are also net-listers.They listen to the BS being played out around the net for the "best l33t" build for an army and the combinations that break an army list (referencing your 2++ reroll).

Some tournament players are netlisters. But there are plenty of non-adoption cases out there. If GKs were still the most OP codex, they would still have a significant following. CSM, for example, is a pretty new codex, but they basically only have the Heldrake and Daemon Prince, so no one actually uses them except as occasional allies. Meanwhile, the legitimacy powerful Tau and Eldar books have people flocking to them.

Majority of tournament goers no longer build a list themselves, they just copy paste the best they can find (or if they think is the best) on the net.

I'd give the majority of tournament players more credit than that.

[Da Gargoyle]

I support DarkLink on the issue of Phil Kelly. He has no affinity for the races he does the codex for and does not seem to allow for the fluff or the unit function when designing rules. For example, in Codex Eldar, taking Counter Attack from the Banshee and giving it to Dire Avengers is astounding. Which one would logically be attuned to close combat, the close combat team or the fire fight team.

In the Ork Codex he annihilated the Ork Bikers. Psycho blasters was a compensation rule, he removed it but left the half range penalty and then ruduced the number of shots from three to two on the Dakkaguns. Lootas don't actually use looted weapons and what is the point of Mob Rule when a mob can't have more than 10 boys in it?

That said my tweak would be in the Eldar codex. If you want people to spend an extra 35 points for a special character whose contribution is a psychic power, then at least let the Warlock counsel roll for their powers before hiving off individuals to units. I mean how stupid would a command team look if it allocates a Warlock with a CC skill to a Artillery unit while it retains a strong defensive trait i.e. Potect/Jinx.