Space Marines-List building questions

[DoctorEvil]

OK, after buying two boxes of AoBR, picking up miscellaneous pieces when game stores go out of business, and random impulse purchases, I find that I'm now an owner of a Space Marine army.

And I have no idea what to do with it.

So, I've been puttering around with some list concepts and realized I have more questions than answers when it comes to Space Marines (I'm primarily a Guard guy). So in an attempt to try to build a competitive list.....I have some questions for the Space Marine veteran players out there..... as follows;

Are Scouts worth it? What's their role?
I have a couple of units of Scouts (& Sgt Telion), but everytime I kit them out I think to myself "For a few points more you can just go with a Tac Squad". I love the idea possibilties that a unit with Inflitrate and Scout USR,yet I seldom see competitive lists that use them. What's the correct way to use Scouts? Are they just meant to be a distraction to your opponent or can they be a serious threat?

I also have 4 Scout Bikers....love the models, but again their role alludes me.

The Land Speeder Storm seems like it would be a good match with the Scouts, but again I seldom see them used in competitve lists.

How many Tactical Squads
In a Guard list, I like to try and fit in about 6 scoring units, 6 Tac Squads seem like a bit too much. Is there an optimum number? The lists I toying with have 3, but I feel like that isn't enough. Then again Tac Squads are far more durable than Guard....but are they that durable?

The Land Raider
I like Terminators. I like Land Raiders. It seems to me that a Terminator Assault Squad (with a Chaplain) and a LR Redeemer compliment each well. An Assault Squad needs to get in close and the Flamestorm cannons help clear some space. Likewise since a normal Terminator squad is a bit shooty, a plain old Land Raider is a good match.

But what about the Crusader? Where does it fit in? A twin-linked AC is a very nice option, but the Hurricane Bolters seem pale in comparison to the twin-link Lascannons of a LR or Flamestorm cannons of a Redeemer, and a transport capacity of 16 seems like overkill. What am I missing here?

Space Marine Heavy Support
What's the prefered Hvy Support Choice of the SM player? I like the Vindicator as it seems like a scaled down version of the Leman Russ Demolisher that I'm use to. Land Raider is expensive. Whirlwind is kind of blah to me. So what's the consensus?

HQ - Characters or Vanilla
I really like some of the special characters. Lysander and Vulkan intrigue me. I like the idea of Lysander attached to a Terminator Squad in a Land Raider and trying to get the most out of Bolter Drill. Likewise, since I think I'll have a number of Thunderhammers, Meltas, and Flamers, Vulkan He'stan seems like a natural choice.

But Special Characters are expensive. Do you limit them to higher point total lists (2000 or so points) and jsut use vanilla Captains or Chapter Masters for lower point builds? Vulkan seems like he could be justified at lower point totals because his abilites are such a good enhancement to the whole army, but I have trouble justifying Lysander at lower point totals.

Maybe I should just forget SC's altogether and use the points elsewhere......




OK..... that's it for now.......it appears that I'm leaning towards a Salamanders, or Imperial Fists theme (or maybe two 1500 point lists of each.....)

[Orminah]

Where to begin..... Well.... You see, scouts can be useful, but it takes alot to peg them down in the right place and use them correctly. I would advise using them as firesupport in a Drop Pod list, but that's just me. As for Scout Bikers, it should be obvious. Turbo-boost on Turn 1 and use their homers on Turn 2. It can be very funny to see Terminators drop down on the board about 12" from the enemy. Also the traps are pretty useful against certain armies. Tactical squads are tricky. They are nessecary, but as you noticed, they are pricey. I would advise taking at least two at full strength. As far as Land Raiders go, the LRC is a wonderful vehicle in the fact that it's bolters are S4, and therefore, defensive. I prefer the LRR, but that's in a Salamanders list, of course. When I play SM, which is rare, I like to use Vindicators and Devastators with Multi-Meltas. With all the deepstrike and whatnot these days, it seems logical to take short-range tank-busters. And far as the SCs go, I love Vulkan. He's worth the points for sure, and yes, he is high in points, but rerolls for meltas? Ouch.

[Chumbalaya]

Scouts: I typically use scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks. They sit in cover on an objective and hold it. 3+ cover is not something to scoff at. Otherwise, with infiltrate they can spread out and block movement, deep strikes, or protect more static tanks (stay 6" away from it to prevent meltas from hitting the sweet spot and block assaults). Combatty scouts are ok, but WS3 really hurts them.

Scout Bikes are meh. They're too soft and don't have a real way of making the most of their scout move. 1 melta bomb doesn't cut it.

The LSS is also meh. Av10 and open-topped kinda sucks, and 5 scouts aren't going to do much themselves.

Tactical Squads: If I bring Scouts, I usually have 2-3 Tac Squads. They're cheap and primarily built to sit in Rhinos and either cap objectives or provide fire support for assaulty/mobile elements. Don't go overboard on weapons, use the free stuff (multi-melta and flamer for me) and don't bother with combat weapons (unless you are stubborn or have no combat tactics). Their low cost is their biggest advantage.

Land Raider: I prefer the Crusader for it's superior midrange firepower and larger capacity, but the Redeemer is plenty good on its own. Throw TH/SS Termies in either and it's party time. Considering how much of a big target Land Raiders are, it's better to double up on them in case you roll badly and one gets popped. Since everything else is so cheap, this often isn't difficult.

Heavy Support: Predators for me. Autocannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons for only 85 points. Cheap support tank and one of the few ways marines can cheaply nail light armor (others being Typhoons or dual TLAC Dreads). Other than that, Land Raiders are always good, Vindicators are nasty, Whirlies are underwhelming, Thunderfires are too fragile, and Devastators are too expensive.

HQ: I like combat tactics and I like cheap HQs. Generally all I field is a Librarian to protect and support my Terminators. SCs lend themselves to particular builds and take up a chunk of points. Lysander works best in a unit of Sternguard to benefit from bolter drill, but assault Termies benefit most from stubborn, so both fit together nicely. Since they're expensive, throw in cheap Tacs, transport cracking Speeders and Preds and you're set. Vulkan lends himself to flamery/meltay death plus more thunder hammers. Just don't skimp on the long range firepower, relying only on meltas leads to problems.

I find marines work best when you don't trick them out. Keep things cheap, bring redundant units, and use that to whittle your opponent down with fire, outmaneuver him, and use your flexibility to keep from getting penned in or trapped.

[DarkLink]

The best use of scouts I can think of is using them as a cheap pestering sniper unit. Sitting in cover, they're pretty tough, but not so dangerous that your opponent will waste time going after them. I could see how that could be useful, but still not exactly ideal.

2-3 Tactical squads is all you need, in all probability. Thanks to combat squads, you can split them into all the scoring units you need. And while units of 5 Marines aren't too durable, with practice enough will live to claim an objective or two, while you can contest the rest. It's all you need. Just make sure to give them transports.

On a side note, a combat squad with a heavy weapon sitting in cover does pretty much the same thing as a scout squad in cover, so they might be redundant. Experiment a little, to see what you like.


Land Raiders are fantastic, especially when you can hide them behind a couple Rhinos for cover. Like Chumby said, take two in larger games. Fill it with something dangerous, like Assault Terminators.

As to which type of Land Raider, it depends on how much other long range firepower you have. If your tac squads have missile launchers of lascannons, stick with a Crusader or Redeemer. If you don't, though, I'd take one Godhammer patter Land Raider. It gives you some long ranged firepower, which is very, very helpful sometimes. I would recommend a Crusader for the second Land Raider, though.*

As for HQ's, I'd agree that a Librarian or Chaplain is a good choice, if you want to keep things cheap. Neither need any wargear, really, or at least very little.

*As a Grey Knight player, I take at least 2 Land Raiders in every game above 1000pts, and sometimes even in 1000pt games. While Crusaders are fantastic, I've found that having a couple TL lascannons is priceless.

I also have 4 Scout Bikers....love the models, but again their role alludes me.

I think you mean elude, not allude. To elude is to avoid, to allude is to hint at something.

[deadmanwade]

Land Speeder Storms with a multi melta, transporting a squad of scouts with a combi-melta sarge can be VERY threatening to your opponent if they are outflanking. They're there as a distraction unit. In one game my opponent moved half his army to deal with them letting my main force mop him up.
Tac Squads are a must. Always take 2. If you have 90 points kicking around free take a 5 man squad and keep them in reserve so they can come on mid game and secure any close objectives. Combat Squads and free guns are awesome.
Librarians with Termie Armour, Vortex of Doom and riding in a drop pod with sternguard can assassinate almost any target you choose. Chaplains running with assault units make them very potent. Its important to choose units that will compliment your HQ and vice versa.

There are no truly bad units in the codex, you just need to have a clear goal for them and choose the right unit for the job.

[Cryl]

Ok here goes

I don't like or use scouts. There are in game uses for them but personally I don't think of them as marines and don't want them in my army, also the models are really ugly.

I run 3 tactical squads in a 1750 point army. It seems to be enough so far. Two are in rhinos and 1 in a drop pod.

The LRC is amazing. A regular land raider just isn't killy enough and if you're using it for delivering termies (likely TH/SS ones!) then it's getting closer than it's weapons suggest it needs to. As someone else mentions the hurricane bolters are S4 and at less than 12" they're rapid fire which is 6 twinlinked shots per sponson, combined with a twin linked assault cannon and the pintle MM I always take, you're killing stuff with this tank.

Heavy Support is a tricky one for me, the way I play my marines I don't use heavy support. The vinidicator is nasty but that means it'll take fire and you only need a single weapon destroyed to take it out of the game mostly.

Special Characters are one of those areas where you'll get serious division of opinion. Personally I don't mind them but I prefer to run with a vanilla librarian in termie armour and SS with a TH/SS squad in a LRC. The psychic hood is worth every penny against Eldar or Chaos Marines.

What's good about the book is that you can play it in quite a few different and yet effective ways, let us know what you come up with

[Anaximander]

Scouts

Tried them often. Nowhere near as survivable as tac squads. Don't use them anymore.

Heavy support

200 points buys you a vindicator AND a razorback. I use both. They complement each other well. I dont waste any points on upgrades.

The vindicator has some serious short range punch, good at killing terminators, nob bikers and meganobs. Even with a cover or invulnerable save, enough of the squad dies to weaken it enough for something else to finish it off. It also acts as a fire/assault magnet, which gives the rest of your army a chance to survive.

The whirlwind is good at smoking out IG infantry in cover, huge boyz mobs and such like. In most games I play it lasts well because it is not seen as much as a threat as other things. However, in the last game I played it was responsible more than anything else for forcing a 30-strong boyz mob off an objective. It got them below 10 and then they failed their leadership test - bye!!

HQ - I use vulkan. I have flames and melta weapons galore. If you are going to take a special character then look at their bonus abilities and maximise them, otherwise you are wasting some of their cost.

If you want a cheap HQ, a bare bones chaplain, or captain with just a relic blade are good choices.

[DoctorEvil]

Thanks guys, ....some excellent comments so far. Which of course has generated some more questions, but I think at this point I need to start putting together a "strawman" of what my list will look like, one Force Org slot at a time

TROOP CHOICES
For some reason all of the lists I toy with end up have two 10 man Tactical Squad with Meltagun & Multi-Melta in a plain old Rhino. I have one squad (& Rhino) already built in this configuration . I have another squad un-assembled, but I'll have to pick up a 2nd Rhino (no big deal).

The question is do Meltas and Multi-Meltas compliment each other? It seems like a stupid question, I'm sure, because "D'uh they're both Melta", but 12" v. 24" range doesn't seem like a good match. Is this a good match? They definitely go a long way to filling my anti-heavy armor role.

So....tenatively my list starts out as

TROOPS 1 (210 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

TROOPS 2 (210 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

But I really need more scoring units. So next we come to the much maligned Scouts

I like the Inflitrating Sniper role for these guys, but I also like the Heavy Bolter with Hellfire shells & Sgt. Telion. But is Telion worth points? While Voice of Experience seems like a cool ability, adding 50 points to a small, 100 point unit does not seem like a good idea, so ultimately I've answered my own question

TROOPS 3 (100 points)
Scout Squad - 4x Sniper Rifle, Heavy Bolter (w/ Hellfire Shells), 5x Camo Cloaks

We'll add on one more plain old Tactical Squad for good measure. It gets the AoBR load out, since that what it has.

TROOPS 4 (170 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Flamer, Missile Launcher

TOTAL POINTS (so far) - 690 points

Ulitmately TROOPS 4 will probably need a transport of some type (I have two Drop Pods built), I want to see how the rest of the list turns out.

I realize that the effectiveness of these choice will be dependent largely on how the rest of the list choices go, but based on what I have so far, am I on the right track?

[DarkLink]

I'd probably put one of the squads with melta's in the drop pods, rather than the flamer and ML squad. Drop pods will come in very early, while enemy troops are still in their transports, making the flamer potentially useless. Do drive-by flamings with the flamer, while the ML sits on an objective thanks to combat-squads.

You might also want to try out PFists on the Tac squads. Not everyone likes them, but a lot of people swear by them.

[DoctorEvil]

DarkLink, that's another issue I've been wrestling with.....the Drop Pod.

I've got two of them built. Nice cheap transport. 1 or 2 DPs would fit nicely as it give me an easy 1st turn Deep Strike, and possible objective claiming unit later in the game with the 2nd.

The question is what is the best thing to put in a 1st turn Drop Pod? The Melta Tac Squad was my 1st thought too. But then I was concerned that I'd have one of my few scoring units out in the open without much support. So then I starting thinking a nice old fashion Dreadnaught might be the trick. I've been flip flopping back and forth on this.