Eldar Codex: So, What Do You Think Of It?

[calamitycal]

Sorry but tau anti-air defenses are VERY difficult to be "neutralized" in likely a single turn.

I'm not saying that it would be impossible to pull this off, but I wouldn't expect it against Tau honestly.

As for the book - I'm comparing it directly to its predecessor - the aforementioned Tau. That book is a much more solid 6e codex than this book that has more questions than it does answers.

I started a list on G+

Why don't farseers have ways to mitigate random psychic powers?
Why don't swooping hawks interact with flyers?
Why don't our flyers have ANY defense upgrades whatsoever and cost MORE than most flyers?
Why do banshees just plain suck?
Why does the falcon even exist when the wave serpent is better in every way?
Why does the wraithknight have 4 weapons but can only shoot two?
Why do Dire Avengers have, of all things, counter attack?
Why do shuriken catapults still suck with their 12" range when the average charge distance is 13" and rapid fire weapons are now move and fire?
Why in the hell is the wraithknight so bloody expensive?
Why is the Dark Reaper Exarch the only one thats able to get Flakk missiles?
Why does Illic have a badass gun but still only wound on 4's and is still vulnerable to Look Out Sir? (Looking at you vindicare)
Why do the Phoenix lords still have super-expensive costs and most don't have invulnerable saves?
Why can't the Avatar get battle fortune exarch power - but can get 4 that are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS to him?
Why do swooping hawks even have haywire grenades when they will get blown off the table the second they land?
Why is the Autarch literally copy and pasted out of the old book? Did PK not get the message that the Autarch is horrible?
Why does the whole army rely on rolling 6's to do well?

You will likely incur some useless snarky remarks for that post, but those are all good and valid questions. Too much of the codex screams of neat ideas that weren't thought through, half-baked ideas, and unfinished work.

[UrielVentris]

Based on plenty enough games with the previous Codex, and noting that none of the previous fundamental problems were addressed in any meaningful way. Chroming irrelevant elements means nothing. It's like Kelly went out of his way not to actually fix anything that people had problems with, especially in the transition to 6E.

Sorry but ever think you were simply playing wrong? Eldar aren't a hammer army you want that play marines.

[UrielVentris]

So many negative nancies here in this thread. How many of you actually played eldar (not against them) in the last edition?

Eldar armies have parts that fit specific goals (so sorry it's not GK easymode) that go in specific orders. If you play eldar to its strengths then you can easily beat any book out pre this codex. All this book did was fix up units to be even better at what they do.

If you play like a stupid mon keigh with them then you're going to get pasted.

Swooping hawks are awesome at av due to their haywire. You can't expect the to turn two a land raider though, you need to... What's it called? Think ahead. If they're shooting at your hawks but not your D cannons, fire prisms, or other tasty treats then you're doing something wrong. If you don't have more important ground units to be shot than hawks you're doing something wrong.

Between scorpions, hawks, and spiders in your backfield you should give your opponent Plenty to worry about. Your 'line' units should be hitting their line when most threats are damaged/destroyed, and shouldn't have a problem to eliminate the stragglers.

Simple point being that if you don't play the army as its designed to be played then you're not going to win with it. You have 6+ turns to win, use them.

[Learn2Eel]

Sorry but tau anti-air defenses are VERY difficult to be "neutralized" in likely a single turn.

I'm not saying that it would be impossible to pull this off, but I wouldn't expect it against Tau honestly.

As for the book - I'm comparing it directly to its predecessor - the aforementioned Tau. That book is a much more solid 6e codex than this book that has more questions than it does answers.

I started a list on G+

Why don't farseers have ways to mitigate random psychic powers?
Why don't swooping hawks interact with flyers?
Why don't our flyers have ANY defense upgrades whatsoever and cost MORE than most flyers?
Why do banshees just plain suck?
Why does the falcon even exist when the wave serpent is better in every way?
Why does the wraithknight have 4 weapons but can only shoot two?
Why do Dire Avengers have, of all things, counter attack?
Why do shuriken catapults still suck with their 12" range when the average charge distance is 13" and rapid fire weapons are now move and fire?
Why in the hell is the wraithknight so bloody expensive?
Why is the Dark Reaper Exarch the only one thats able to get Flakk missiles?
Why does Illic have a badass gun but still only wound on 4's and is still vulnerable to Look Out Sir? (Looking at you vindicare)
Why do the Phoenix lords still have super-expensive costs and most don't have invulnerable saves?
Why can't the Avatar get battle fortune exarch power - but can get 4 that are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS to him?
Why do swooping hawks even have haywire grenades when they will get blown off the table the second they land?
Why is the Autarch literally copy and pasted out of the old book? Did PK not get the message that the Autarch is horrible?
Why does the whole army rely on rolling 6's to do well?

That's your problem though. You are assuming that the player in question didn't use an Autarch to delay the fighter or identify key targets and neutralize them. If they aren't using fliers themselves (which they commonly don't), removing their markerlights and any battlesuits with Skyfire in three turns is hardly impossible. Riptides tend not to have Skyfire, and most of the units that do aren't that hard to destroy under duress. This isn't a dig against you, but you are definitely removing the natural elements of the game - i.e. positioning, target saturation, target priority - from your appraisal, and are thus assuming that the only way the flier could have been used so effectively was if the Tau player messed up either strategically (list building) or tactically (on the field). Using Eldar Skimmer Tanks in conjunction with the Wraithfighter is a pretty ingenious move, particularly against a generally mediocre Leadership army.

As to your list;
*Because no one else does, and if anything, it makes a lot more sense for Tzeentch Daemons to have this kind of mastery than Eldar - they kind of *are* psychic essence made real. Selecting your in-codex powers may have been ok, but then it would be too easy to spam certain combos; i.e. +2 armoured Wraithguard with a Spiritseer, +2 armoured and Shrouded Shining Spears/Windrider/Seer Councils with Shrouded, etc. I'm fine with random, as I've had to deal with it all through 6E (of all the 6E armies, the only one I don't play regularly is Dark Angels).
*This is one I agree with and find odd, though I think they would have been made even more costly if they had. Would have also been hard to "balance" rules wise; how do they hit a zooming flyer and not be "zooming" themselves? There would have to be restrictions on it. In that sense, it is fair enough, though annoying; in any case, we have anti-air elsewhere.
*They don't cost more than most flyers, actually. Look at all the 6E codices. They really don't. The lack of defensive upgrades does suck, but that is the balance of them; they hit harder than almost any other flyers in the game.
*I dunno why this happened, but it is sad.
*In an all-Jetbike army, Wave Serpents are unavailable. More importantly, you should be asking yourself why it exists next to the Fire Prism.
*Haven't we been dealing with Wraithlords having three or four weapons for two editions now? It is purely for flexibility; the Sun Cannon won't worry most vehicles, but the Scatter Lasers will. Whether you need them and/or have the spare points for them is another matter entirely. The important thing is that it does not need to take four weapons.
*It is pretty clear that, with their 18" range, they are intended as a close-assault/defensive unit on the fly. Counter-Attack only aids this, and if the old Defend fits into their fluff, then why doesn't Counter-Attack?
*I don't like it either, but it is likely because it would have forced them to change the Avenger Shuriken Catapult to 24" or be 3 shots, which would have been hard to balance - Assault 2 at 24" with semi-Rending craps all over Bolters, and even 18" Assault 3 would have been nasty given that they can run and shoot now. Guardians are much more than a heavy weapon team now, though, and in decent numbers will murder murder most things that get close.
*It is simple, it pays for its durability and movement. It is faster than a Trygon, far tougher than a Trygon - bolters can't hurt it, missiles need 4s to wound it, plasma needs 5s to wound it, etc - has the cheap option for an invulnerable save, offers handy shooting that can semi-reliably destroy most tanks at long range, or expensive but deadly anti-infantry shooting, and it is still darn nasty in combat. Compared to a Trygon, the Wraithknight is ace - and a Trygon is considered by most Tyranid players as one of the more appropriately priced monsters in the codex.
*I agree that it is silly. He can get an extra shot though, but it is certainly costly. Frankly, I've never found flakk missiles to be worth it in any codex so far.
*It is possible that GW haven't realized that Precision Shots/Strikes still allow for Look Out Sir rolls, even though they included it in their rules. Though of course the Vindicare FAQ disproves this theory. It is odd though, and could potentially see an Errata.
*Honestly, given their combat profiles/ranged weapons, most of them don't need the invulnerable save. They will have attached squads to soak up the shooting, and most can kill a wide breadth of enemy characters that do have AP2 weapons before they can strike. Take Karandras for example; with six attacks on the charge, some monsters will flat out die before they even get a chance to strike. The popular Chaos Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury on a Juggernaught can be monstered quite easily in one round before it can strike. As for something like a Daemon Prince with a daemon weapon, use the Avatar. Don't forget that many popular combat characters still only have AP3 melee weapons.
*I agree that Night Vision and Marksman's Eye aren't that great for him, but the others work just fine. Fast Shot for a two shot melta that is BS10? Crushing Blow to make him S7 base and help him against high Toughness enemies that aren't monsters (Monster Hunter) such as Necron Overlords? Monster Hunting for dealing with other monstrous creatures far more effectively? Disarming Strike to (more than likely) completely negate the nasty weapons that could actually pose a threat to the Avatar, such as Warscythes, Boneswords, Thunder Hammers and so on? They are hardly worthless.
*You do realize that no-scatter on deep strike, combined with not requiring line of sight to use their grenade attack, pretty much means you can hide them wherever you want? As Jump Infantry with Fleet, most vehicles are unlikely to get away from them. And if those vehicles actively move away from the Swooping Hawks and closer to your other anti-tank weapons, it is all the better for you. Not to mention that most people won't identify Swooping Hawks as that great of a threat, particularly if you have Fire Prisms and Dark Reapers or such units running around.
*They are useful for reserves manipulation, and can be made into a pretty hardcore character with certain wargear options at an incredibly low cost. They aren't a Chaos Lord in melee but that isn't the point of the model. If you have lots of reserves, they are invaluable - most other armies have to use up their valuable Fortification slot to get the same kind of bonus.
*The whole army? They don't "rely on it" - Warp Spiders sure as heck don't need it - but it is handy to have. Having semi-Rending on your basic Troops - that are still cheaper than Marines, when all is said and done - is ludicrous even despite their mostly mediocre ranges. There are ways around their short ranges, there are few ways around semi-Rending. Ten Guardians can make their points back in one fusillade against Marine armies.

So many negative nancies here in this thread. How many of you actually played eldar (not against them) in the last edition?

Eldar armies have parts that fit specific goals (so sorry it's not GK easymode) that go in specific orders. If you play eldar to its strengths then you can easily beat any book out pre this codex. All this book did was fix up units to be even better at what they do.

If you play like a stupid mon keigh with them then you're going to get pasted.

Swooping hawks are awesome at av due to their haywire. You can't expect the to turn two a land raider though, you need to... What's it called? Think ahead. If they're shooting at your hawks but not your D cannons, fire prisms, or other tasty treats then you're doing something wrong. If you don't have more important ground units to be shot than hawks you're doing something wrong.

Between scorpions, hawks, and spiders in your backfield you should give your opponent Plenty to worry about. Your 'line' units should be hitting their line when most threats are damaged/destroyed, and shouldn't have a problem to eliminate the stragglers.

Simple point being that if you don't play the army as its designed to be played then you're not going to win with it. You have 6+ turns to win, use them.

Agreed. And being a "difficult army to use" does not make them bad, it just means there is more to the army than "slap down, advance, fire, charge, repeat".

[UrielVentris]

^exactly.

Most people who meta their lists are worried about the easiest form of play for the biggest gain, and that's admirable in some way I'm sure. I'll say it bluntly. Eldar are a hard army to play. If you don't like it there's plenty if other armies to play.

I've faced parking lot armies w eldar and won no problem, nid swarms, meq everything, easymode gks. Eldar is probably one if the few armies that can take a build against any of these army types and have a chance at beating them. Granted I'm not a tournament gamer but I've played your guys nightmare lists places like bols pride themselves in making, and eldar can make a fight or beat every one that's been thrown out there. :-)

Gotta just be smart with your units and anythings possible ;-)

[Sainhann]

I dunno i feel Kelly let us down a bit here. Great fluff, average rules. Which would be fine if every other codex wasn't great or better

My biggest problem is i only have 2 HQ slots. And want an Avatar, a Farseer, A spiritseer and a Wraithseer

Just got to love the Force Composition Chart the most stupidest thing GW has ever done to 40K.

Screwed over the Orks, Eldar, Tau & Squats if they weren't already gone.

It is also the reason why Imperial Guard got the Platoon structure for troops.

[Learn2Eel]

^exactly.

Most people who meta their lists are worried about the easiest form of play for the biggest gain, and that's admirable in some way I'm sure. I'll say it bluntly. Eldar are a hard army to play. If you don't like it there's plenty if other armies to play.

I've faced parking lot armies w eldar and won no problem, nid swarms, meq everything, easymode gks. Eldar is probably one if the few armies that can take a build against any of these army types and have a chance at beating them. Granted I'm not a tournament gamer but I've played your guys nightmare lists places like bols pride themselves in making, and eldar can make a fight or beat every one that's been thrown out there. :-)

Gotta just be smart with your units and anythings possible ;-)

And this is why I prefer armies like Eldar where you actually have to think through your entire game. Mistakes are punished harshly, and knowing how to use everything in their specific role is key to success. In short, they are armies that actually make you feel like a proper general, not just someone playing a game on Easy or Normal difficulty. Hence why I have moved away from Heldrakes and am beginning to refuse to use them at all unless it is a big game.

Just got to love the Force Composition Chart the most stupidest thing GW has ever done to 40K.

Screwed over the Orks, Eldar, Tau & Squats if they weren't already gone.

It is also the reason why Imperial Guard got the Platoon structure for troops.

It mostly screws over armies that aren't elite, or consist of so many cheap models that they would actively be constrained by it on all possible fronts. For an army like Eldar, this is more a case of forcing the player to make as balanced an army as possible with a limited total. It also disallows most armies' from spamming their "broken" units. I see it more as a tool to help players learn how to build an effective army list.
I expect Tyranids to be able to 'ally' with themselves or feature the return of the "without number" rule in some capacity, but that is more because the complete lack of Allies limits them. Above all other codices, they need to be the best equipped to deal with any kind of army list, as they don't have an in-built redundancy (i.e. other codices) to solve any issues that pop up. I would expect them to have very strong anti-air capabilities - though flying Hive Tyrants with double brain-leech devourers tear apart most fliers in a single volley - as an example.

[Sainhann]

The claw itself is whopping two times more expensive. The exarch upgrade is 2 pts less than before. Basic scorps are 1 point up too.

So with the new Codex Eldar will be even putting fewer things onto the table do to all the point increases.

[Learn2Eel]

You pay for the good stuff though. A S6 AP2 weapon that isn't Unwieldy and strikes at WS5 I6 and four attacks on the charge is nasty as hell, particularly for a squad sergeant. Much like High Elves in Warhammer Fantasy, you pay to be a fragile elite army.

[Sainhann]

Sorry but ever think you were simply playing wrong? Eldar aren't a hammer army you want that play marines.

They once were a hammer army that is why they got nerf'ed to hell 15 years ago.