A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[daboarder]

Sources are [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html"]here[/URL] and [URL="abusersgettingcustody.blogspot.com"]here[/URL].

I'm sick of seeing MRAs in particular talk about how men are unfairly disadvantaged in custody cases when as always with men the opposite is true.

WOW, a huffington post report, that itself links to divorcepeers.com!!!

Such fantastic peer reviewing and solid research to links that dont work in that article....

But double standards on sources, Am I right?


EDIT: Here's how you provide sources

[url]http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-240.pdf[/url]

About 1 in 6 custodial parents were
fathers (17.8 percent).

nope, no possible bias there......

HEY LOOK, heres a review by the place that huffington used a broken link for

[url]http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/07/02/the-rise-of-single-fathers/[/url]

ooo, its rising (to all of 20%), but its not equal yet is it.....

[CoffeeGrunt]

[URL="http://www.gamewire.belloflostsouls.net/check-female-sci-fi-soldiers-set/"]http://www.gamewire.belloflostsouls.net/check-female-sci-fi-soldiers-set/[/URL]

Looks like more and more people are releasing female Guard lately. At $19.99 for five, I'd personally rather go with Victoria Minis, but these look much more Cadian than VM's Arcadian range. I also really like the design of the Lasguns as well.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Also this was pretty amusing:
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKLnhuzh9uY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKLnhuzh9uY[/URL]

[Gotthammer]

Such fantastic peer reviewing and solid research to links that dont work in that article....

But double standards on sources, Am I right?

Courts can't be expected to award what they're not asked to. It turns out that fathers who ask for custody (and don't give up) are very likely to get either sole or joint custody:

From a state of Massachusetts study of custody awards at the state and national level come these studies of cases where fathers requested custody:

Study 1: MASS
2100 cases where fathers sought custody (100%)
5 year duration

29% of fathers got primary custody
65% of fathers got joint custody
7% of mothers got primary custody

Study 2: MASS
700 cases. In 57, (8.14%) father sought custody
6 years

67% of fathers got primary custody
23% of mothers got primary custody

Study 3: MASS
500 cases. In 8% of these cases, father sought custody
6 years

41% of fathers got sole custody
38% of fathers got joint custody
15% of mothers got sole custody

Study 4: Los Angeles
63% of fathers who sought sole custody were successful

Study 5: US appellate custody cases
51% of fathers who sought custody were successful (not clear from wording whether this includes just sole or sole/joint custody)

The study concluded:

The high success rate of fathers does not by itself establish gender bias against women. Additional evidence, however, indicates that women may be less able to afford the lawyers and experts needed in contested custody cases (see “Family Law Overview”) and that, in contested cases, different and stricter standards are applied to mothers.
More on fathers and custody:

Through most of Anglo-American legal history, there was little custody litigation because there was nothing to fight over. Dad always got the kids. Under English and early American common law, children were regarded as paternal property.
In the mid-1800s, the Industrial Revolution swept fathers out of jobs at or near home and into factories and businesses, prompting the courts to reverse course on custody. Under the “tender years” doctrine, eventually adopted in every state, the mother was presumed to be the proper custodian, especially for young children.

In the 1970s, this doctrine was replaced by the ostensibly gender-neutral “best interest of the child” standard. Today, only five states—Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee—have some form of maternal preference in custody statutes or case law, says Jeffrey Atkinson, author of Modern Child Custody Practice, 2d ed., and professor at DePaul University College of Law in Chicago.

Although the U.S. Supreme Court has not ruled on maternal preferences, Atkinson believes these holdout states are on shaky constitutional ground. “A presumption that women are inherently better able to care for children than men is not a legitimate, accurate method for determining custody,” he says.

Old stereotypes die hard, though, and fathers’ rights advocates say neutral statutory language has done little to change the courts’ pro-mother leanings. Moms are granted custody in 85 percent of all cases, notes Dianna Thompson, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based American Coalition for Fathers and Children. She says the expense of litigation and likelihood of losing discourages many dads from even fighting for custody.

However, statistics on custody awards can be deceiving, since most custody orders are uncontested or negotiated by the parties. A 1992 study of California cases showed that fathers were awarded primary or joint custody in about half of contested custody matters.

Some lawyers believe the gender gap in custody awards reflects a preference for the status quo, rather than bias against fathers. “Family law is a case-by-case, judge-by-judge affair,” says Joel Bigatel, a family lawyer in Narberth, Pa. “If there’s a bias in awarding custody, it’s in favor of primary caretakers. If dad is the working parent, and mom is the stay-at-home, she generally has a leg up.”

Working fathers have the best shot at being named primary caretakers if they have flexible schedules, or if the mother is also working and the children are already in day care or school, says Bigatel.

[daboarder]

The study concluded:

just wondering if you read that conclusion Gott? Because.....

Moms are granted custody in 85 percent of all cases

She says the expense of litigation and likelihood of losing discourages many dads from even fighting for custody.

So maybe less bashing the dads for not "asking"

Some lawyers believe the gender gap in custody awards reflects a preference for the status quo, rather than bias against fathers.

Aren't we all about fixing the status quo so it supports equality?




EDIT: Also please provide a link to the actual study, I'm sure there is much more information in it that what you have transcribed

More studies

Over the past century, the basis in law for
custody decision making has shifted from
a paternal presumption to a maternal presumption
to current gender-neutral laws
which rely upon a consideration of the best
interests of the child in determining custody
outcomes. While joint legal and physical
custody statutes now allow parents to
share child-rearing time and responsibilities
after divorce as an alternative to awarding
sole custody to one parent, the most
common physical custody arrangement remains
that of maternal physical custody

[url]http://futureofchildren.org/futureofchildren/publications/docs/04_01_07.pdf[/url]

s, it would appear that the majority of
custody decisions continue to reflect, to a
large degree, deeply embedded cultural
traditions that view mothers as primarily
responsible for their children, both during
marriage and after divorce.

EDIT:

More studies

The number of divorced men who fight for child custody is
significant.7 Yet, there remain glaring discrepancies between the
number of divorced mothers and fathers awarded custody.8

[url]http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1522&context=lawreview[/url]


I particularly like this one

The belief that children
belong with their mothers is firmly ingrained within this country's
social and legal tenets.12

But we're not aiming to fix little things like pre-determined gender roles....am I right?

[Gotthammer]

just wondering if you read that conclusion Gott? Because.....

lol did you? First sentence:

"The high success rate of fathers does not by itself establish gender bias against women. Additional evidence, however, indicates that women may be less able to afford the lawyers and experts needed in contested custody cases (see “Family Law Overview”) and that, in contested cases, different and stricter standards are applied to mothers."


And also later:

“A presumption that women are inherently better able to care for children than men is not a legitimate, accurate method for determining custody,”

...

“Family law is a case-by-case, judge-by-judge affair,” says Joel Bigatel, a family lawyer in Narberth, Pa. “If there’s a bias in awarding custody, it’s in favor of primary caretakers. If dad is the working parent, and mom is the stay-at-home, she generally has a leg up.”


And I don't think anyone's denied that more women receive custody but that saying that in itself is the simple bias is reductive in the extreme as it a far more complicated matter than that. Yes less men apply for custody and money is a factor because of it, but money is a matter for women when it does go to court.
And women have been fighting since, well forever pretty much, against the notion that women are caretakers of children by default so if you have a problem with that notion take it to the judges (75% of whom are male!) who act on that idea not complain at women arguing the system is broken.

[daboarder]

lol did you? First sentence:

"The high success rate of fathers does not by itself establish gender bias against women. Additional evidence, however, indicates that women may be less able to afford the lawyers and experts needed in contested custody cases (see “Family Law Overview”) and that, in contested cases, different and stricter standards are applied to mothers."


And also later:

“A presumption that women are inherently better able to care for children than men is not a legitimate, accurate method for determining custody,”

...

“Family law is a case-by-case, judge-by-judge affair,” says Joel Bigatel, a family lawyer in Narberth, Pa. “If there’s a bias in awarding custody, it’s in favor of primary caretakers. If dad is the working parent, and mom is the stay-at-home, she generally has a leg up.”


custody and money is a factor because of it, but money is a matter for women when it does go to court.
And women have been fighting since, well forever pretty much, against the notion that women are caretakers of children by default so if you have a problem with that notion take it to the judges (75% of whom are male!) who act on that idea not complain at women arguing the system is broken.

still waiting on a link to see what additional citations on that study. furthermore a single study =/= invalidate all the others.

EDIT, You also need to stop using this line

And I don't think anyone's denied that more women receive custody but that saying that in itself is the simple bias is reductive in the extreme as it a far more complicated matter than that. Yes less men apply for

Every single time eldargal goes too far you end up saying this, its not true.

men are unfairly disadvantaged in custody cases when as always with men the opposite is true.

She is directly saying that custody is somehow biased towards men, and Im sorry but a huffington post article with broken links to anything other than a BS website does most certainly NOT support that statement.


EDIT: You also seem to be taking issue with the statement

in contested cases, different and stricter standards are applied to mothers.

Of course there are different standards for disputed custody cases, the very fact that a dispute is occurring means that the parties must be compared for the sake of the child. This statement isn't saying women are held to a stricter standard than men, Gott. Its stating that the standards in disputed cases are different to non disputed (though again, having a link to this study of yours would help me further establish context)

Finally, none of your re-statement of your stances addresses the gross imbalance in determination of primary caregivers. you cannot change the fact that 20% of the physical custodianship is taken by fathers, and your argument that "they just dont ask" (and they are, from the studies I have read) is brushing the underlying social bias that leads to that small number under the rug and hoping it will go away so that you can claim that those fathers are somehow not disadvantaged by gender roles in society.

Furthermore,

And women have been fighting since, well forever pretty much, against the notion that women are caretakers of children by default so if you have a problem with that notion take it to the judges (75% of whom are male!) who act on that idea not complain at women arguing the system is broken.

Clearly these DISPUTED custody cases didnt get the memo that somehow women do not want the gender biased caregiver status, or do you really think that these people are arguing that the other parent should be caretaker? Stop twisting this to fit into your stance that the whole thing is "mens fault anyway"

[Gotthammer]

still waiting on a link to see what additional citations on that study. furthermore a single study =/= invalidate all the others.

[URL="http://tinyurl.com/6ehkqk"]http://tinyurl.com/6ehkqk[/URL]

EDIT, You also need to stop using this line

Nah.

See 'cause in custody cases men have the advantage. Because a custody case is when a person or people go to court for a judgement on custody and if it is contested between parents the majority of the time the fathers get joint or sole custody, with a higher chance of getting sole custody than mothers.


Oh and the notes on this quote

The number of divorced men who fight for child custody is
significant.7 Yet, there remain glaring discrepancies between the
number of divorced mothers and fathers awarded custody.8

might've been worth reading:

7. Furthermore, a substantial percentage of fathers who would prefer sole or joint custody do not actually re-quest such custodial arrangements. See id. While over thirty percent of fathers want sole custody, fewer than forty percent of those men actually sought sole physical custody. See id. Likewise, roughly thirty-five percent of men would prefer joint custody. See id. at 99. Yet, over half of these men either request sole maternal custody,
or make no request at all. See id. at 100.

8. a See id. at 103, 300. In a study of 705 cases, an uncontested request for maternal physical custody was made in 500 cases. See id. The outcome matched the request
for maternal custody in nearly 90% of such cases. See id. In contrast, paternal physical custody was awarded in only 75% of the 47 cases in which there was an uncontested
request for sole paternal physical custody. See id.; see also Stephanie B.Goldberg, Make Room for Daddy, 83 A.B.A. J. 48, 49 (1997) (detailing the emerging fathers' rights movement).

As it echoes what I posted before and relates to this:

Finally, none of your re-statement of your stances addresses the gross imbalance in determination of primary caregivers. you cannot change the fact that 20% of the physiccal custodianship is taken by fathers, and your argument that "they just dont ask" is brushing the underlying social bias that leads to that small number under the rug and hoping it will go away so that you can claim that those fathers are somehow not disadvantaged by gender roles in society.

Because the complex and damaging issues that cause low numbers of men to attempt to gain any form of custody is a totally different issue than a bias in the legal process that creates custody arrangements which is what EG was referring to and what you asked for further evidence on.

And I agree with you on that & this thread is about women's issues so why would I need to bring that up?

[daboarder]

And I agree with you on that & this thread is about women's issues so why would I need to bring that up?

Probably because
1) this thread is constantly claiming those issues that affect men are somehow not worthy of discussion.
2) If someone was to start a serious thread about mens rights (Not the anti-feminsit BS, the serious, falling literarly rates and damaging asigned gender roles) its highly unlikely that I would either get not get band for starting a political thread (yes thats happened) or that the thread would become anything more than a target for people who somehow really think that men live in a magical protection bubble.


On another note. that link you posted just goes to google

EDIT: if that was intentional then honestly my standards for how I would equate your ability to properly research, cite and evaluate these peer reviewed studies has dropped significantly. you have provided no specific information on the article you are quoting, the only statement of note you have provided is that it was conducted in the state of Massachusetts.

Perhaps you should read this
[url]http://library.uvm.edu/guides/citation/why.php[/url]

Of note

Gives credit to authors whose works you have used (whether you quote them or not).
Provides a trail by which others can locate the materials you consulted.
Provides evidence of your research.
Properly citing materials is one strategy to help you avoid plagiarizing.

EDIT2: Thank you for providing the link below.

[Gotthammer]

Ah my apologies:

[URL="http://amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm"]Here is the link[/URL], (worth noting the report you linked is quoting this one).

the thread would become anything more than a target for people who somehow really think that men live in a magical protection bubble.

I can't imagine what it would be like to have a thread where every time you tried to post about issues that effect you on a deep personal level there are people who would appear solely to snipe at you and nitpick and dismiss you while ignoring any evidence you produce and even going so far as to take potshots at you in other threads on the board. That would be so incredibly tiring and draining I can see why you wouldn't want to put up with that.