Serious Rules Debate the FAQ Does Not Address

[the_puritan]

My friends and I have been playing it like this from the get-go and haven't had any problems with it at all.

I would assume that if they didn't want the Space Marine to have the "Final Epic Push" turn, they would have written it in reverse... with the command-point-check BEFORE the win-the-game-check.

The game is over after the check...
when someone wins at Monopoly, you don't roll the dice to see if they'd lose after... they already won.
when I bluff you off a pot in poker, you don't flip my cards over to see if I won "for real"... I already won.

It's not unbalanced, it's flavorful, and (more importantly) it's the way the rules are written.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

I would assume that if they didn't want the Space Marine to have the "Final Epic Push" turn, they would have written it in reverse... with the command-point-check BEFORE the win-the-game-check.

Would defeat the purpose of the bluff now wouldnt it.

[Gotthammer]

Also the making up your own command points only 'works' in one of the missions - Suicide mission where the victory criterea state the game ends immediately. All the others require checking the game status against the victory conditions and then checking the command points during the end phase.

A loophole in the wording of one out of twelve missions doesn't seem like RAI, and is dubiously RAW.

And just because the info for the not being allowed to use more than is given is written after the location of revealing proves nothing. It still says "the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter." Nobody has provided any argument to say how they get around this other than "the other guy will never know". And it doesn't say not to reveal the counter in case of a victory by either side, just that it is done after victory conditions are checked.

A previous example was given where more are used and the Librarian brings the total down later - I wouldn't do that. That's part of the complexity of the game; working out the order to activate guys, limited APs, random CPs and all under a time limit.

[the_puritan]

Would defeat the purpose of the bluff now wouldnt it.

The command point check happens at the end of the game turn... it's still a secret throughout both players turns.
If we reverse the order that the checks are done in the Mission Status Phase so that the command point check is done right before the victory condition check happens, you're still just as capable of pretending you've got more or less during the other phases of the turn.
...so, um, I don't really get what you mean here.

checking the game status against the victory conditions and then checking the command points during the end phase.

This must be where we differ in interpretation... You're putting the entire Mission Status Phase together as one single thing, where I read it as seperate steps.
I get that interpretation from the wording:

"The players should first check the victory conditions [...] to see if either of them has won."
...and then:
"After the victory conditions have been checked, the Space Marine player reveals the command point counter to show that he has not expened more than he had for the turn."

After the game has been won, there's no more game to be played. "Game over, man!" as everyone likes to say while playing Space Hulk.

So, its possible to do this in any of the missions that have victory conditions... which they all do.

It still says "the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter."

Before the FAQ, this happend all the time by accident. Space Marine players would lose track of how many points they had to use and would go over. It still happens (although much less so now that we're more free to look at the counter).

My point is that players can and DO use more command points than the number shown on the counter (even players who don't use the Final Push turn). Nothing stops a player from using more command points... they will just lose the game when the command point check happens.

Nobody has provided any argument to say how they get around this other than "the other guy will never know". And it doesn't say not to reveal the counter in case of a victory by either side, just that it is done after victory conditions are checked.

heh... it's really not this dubiously shady thing that we're trying to get away with, its how the game is played.

We show the counter after the game is over most of the time... although most Genestealer players don't care how many points you were given that turn because they know you just pushed through. They usually give kudos for a game well played.
...and they know they might get the chance to do that when they play as Space Marines next.

Nobody is cheated. Nobody gets mad. Everyone has fun.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

The command point check happens at the end of the game turn... it's still a secret throughout both players turns.
If we reverse the order that the checks are done in the Mission Status Phase so that the command point check is done right before the victory condition check happens, you're still just as capable of pretending you've got more or less during the other phases of the turn.
...so, um, I don't really get what you mean here.

Only that you would lose instantly because you have used more Command Points than allowed.

It's not unbalanced, it's flavorful, and (more importantly) it's the way the rules are written.

.....and it is written so..... "the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter." Trying to justify your interpretation of the game mechanics with examples from other unrelated gaming systems (Monopoly & Poker) proves nothing.

[Gotthammer]

I get that interpretation from the wording:

"The players should first check the victory conditions [...] to see if either of them has won."
...and then:
"After the victory conditions have been checked, the Space Marine player reveals the command point counter to show that he has not expened more than he had for the turn."

After the game has been won, there's no more game to be played. "Game over, man!" as everyone likes to say while playing Space Hulk.

It doesn't say that if one side has won to not check the CP counter, only to do it after the check - you quoted as much yourself.

Before the FAQ, this happend all the time by accident. Space Marine players would lose track of how many points they had to use and would go over. It still happens (although much less so now that we're more free to look at the counter).

Then those Marine players should pay more attention to what they're doing. It quite clearly says in the rules that if you overspend, you lose.

My point is that players can and DO use more command points than the number shown on the counter (even players who don't use the Final Push turn). Nothing stops a player from using more command points... they will just lose the game when the command point check happens.


heh... it's really not this dubiously shady thing that we're trying to get away with, its how the game is played.

It's funny reading what you wrote when you take the quote out of the middle. First paragraph the argument is that people spend more, and will then lose. Second paragraph - arguing that it's not shady to deliberately perform the act of spending more CPs (which you just admitted causes you to instantly lose) in the hope the other player won't find out.

We show the counter after the game is over most of the time... although most Genestealer players don't care how many points you were given that turn because they know you just pushed through. They usually give kudos for a game well played.
...and they know they might get the chance to do that when they play as Space Marines next.

Nobody is cheated. Nobody gets mad. Everyone has fun.

Then why not always use 6 CPs? Why not instantly end the game when you get into a position of needing 6CPs to win if you're just going to take them regardless of what the rules say you've been given? I'm yet to see anyone give a reference where it says you can spend more CPs than on the counter - only that you technically can avoid showing that you did in one specific instance in one mission.

If I was playing Genestealers I'd like to think that there was a fair and reasonable chance that even if my opponent needed 6CPs to pull off the win, he might not get it (due to the process being, you know, randomly determined) so I would have a fair chance, and not be blatantly lied to, with the excuse of "but I didn't think you'd find out".

I'd feel cheated if my opponent did that, just as a Marine Player would feel cheated if you only put 3 blips in the pile as Genestealers.

[the_puritan]

Only that you would lose instantly because you have used more Command Points than allowed.

What does that have to do with bluffing?
I'm having a real hard time following you...

It doesn't say that if one side has won to not check the CP counter, only to do it after the check

That's actually a really good point, it doesn't say in the rules to stop playing when one player wins the game. Is that just another house rule we made up to cheat the Genestealer players?

Seriously, if you take all of the Mission Status Phase and do the whole thing (regardless of weather any play has won or not) you would:
1 - check victory conditions
2 - flip the command point marker (and a Space Marine player would lose immediately if they used too many) remove any status markers.
3 - start a new turn.

...and you really do all of those every time?
So your games never end, since you have to start a new turn even if someone won?

Then those Marine players should pay more attention to what they're doing. It quite clearly says in the rules that if you overspend, you lose.

None of the people you play with have ever used more by accident?
Maybe the guys I'm playing with don't have as good of memories as the group you play with, but this does happen from time to time with us.
...and, when it does, those players lose in the Mission Status Phase immediately upon flipping the counter.
not to be confused with immediately upon using more Command Points than they have available.

Do you see the difference?
I'm not saying that players who overspend don't lose the game, I'm just saying there are certain instances when they might be able to win before they get a chance to lose.

in the hope the other player won't find out.

blatantly lied to, with the excuse of "but I didn't think you'd find out".

I'm not convinced that you're actually reading my posts because that's not at all what's happening and I said so before.
Please re-read the last paragraph I wrote in the other post.

I'd feel cheated if my opponent did that

I guess I'm fortunate enough to have a great group of (fairly) well adjusted adults who are looking for a fun, well played, competetive, game that everyone can enjoy.
If your mind immediately jumps to "cheating" and "getting away with [stuff]", I wonder if you need more trustworthy friends?

This seems like a real emotional subject for you and weather you're not fully reading what I'm typing or I'm just not putting it in a way you're able to understand, it doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that the OP knows that there are other people that play the game the way he/she does.
...and really, if you DON"T play that way, it's not that big of a deal. I think you're missing out on an aspect of the game that portrays the iconic resolve of the Space Marines, but I'm not going to accuse you of cheating.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

What does that have to do with bluffing?

Sure, you can bluff how many CPs you have, but it doesnt change the fact if you spend more CPs than you actually have (accident or not), you lose.

"the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter."

It seems like your completely ignoring this rule (ie; part of the actual game), if not I would be interested to know when and how you use it?

[the_puritan]

"the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter."

Ok, if that were actually the case, players would be prevented from using more than they are allotted... however, nobody stops them from actually using more (accidentally or otherwise).
There isn't someone watching over them and slapping their hand when they are about to use another one everyone is free to use as many as they think they have.

The only system to ensure that a player does not use more than their allotment is the Mission Status Phase check that happens after the check to see who has won the game.

I would be interested to know when and how you use it?

I use this rule during the Mission Status Phase, when the counter is flipped (after victory conditions are checked).
If a player had (accidentally or otherwise) used more Command Points than they were allotted that turn, they lose at that point.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

Well, opinions seem to be pretty even both ways, and I guess it is just down to personal opinion. I'll mention this to my gaming group next time we play and see what they have to say on the matter, as long as we all agree or at least accept a decision one way or another, its all good.

Great topic, good discussion, I've said all I can on the matter.