Counter attack rule question

[Ninthplain]

Hello,

When reading the rule in the universal special rules section on counter attack I cannot see any differance with piling in to a normal combat. The says"treat the counter attack move as a pile in", but makes no mention of this counts as a charge. This bring up a couple of questions:

1. How is it differant than just moving everyone to get into combat?
2. Do the counterattacking infantry get an extra attack and if so how many get it?

I asked this question before and have gotten alot of differant answers on other forums and decided to try here. I am a SW player and this will be important very soon.

Thank you in advance.
Ninthplain

[Culven]

The actual move is no different than the normal Defenders React move. The only bonus is that the unit using Counterattack gains bonus attacks "as thought they had charged", but they aren't otherwise considered to have charged.

[DarkLink]

From the BRB: "...when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must take a leadership test. If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn."

So when you get charged, you get +1 attack for that round of combat if you can pass a leadership test. On a side note, you cannot use this rule if you are already locked in combat.

[Rapture]

I am a little hazy on grenade rules, but do defensive grenades stop the extra attack?

[Culven]

I think that issue is still debatable. The Defensive grenade rules state that the "assaulting unit" doesn't gain the bonus attacks. While the unit using Counterattack isn't the assaulting unit, it gains the bonus attacks "as if they too had assaulted that turn".

I think I would lean toward Defensive Grenades not affecting the Counter-Attack unit since it isn't the assaulting unit, it just gains a bonus as if it had done so, without the rules stating that it counts as assaulting/charging. This would also be consistant with the logic of why they wouldn't gain bonuses from Furious charge as well.

[DarkLink]

A counter attacking unit is not assaulting, it only gains the bonuses as if it were. So defensive grenades don't block those attacks.

[Vince]

Defensive Grenades page 36

"Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no assault attack bonus. "

Counter Attack pg 74

"If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn."

As defensive grenades take away your assault attack bonus no you do not get them if you counter attack as you treat the bonus attack exactly as if you had assaulted that turn.

[sorienor]

But counter-attack does not give you any other charge bonus (such as furious charge) but just the +1A. So, I'm not so sure defensive grenades stop that extra attack.

[DarkLink]

Defensive grenade rules state this: "Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no assault bonus attacks." So defensive grenades don't actually block furious charge, just the bonus attack (or attacks in the case of Blood Claws).

However, counter assaulting units are not assaulting. The defensive grenade rules state "Models assaulting...". Therefore defensive grenades do not block the counter assault rule.

[Vince]

Ill underline the relevent part

If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn."

Since you treat the bonus attack exactly as if they had assaulted they lose it from defensive grenades. While I can see your confusion if you treat the models as if they where assaulting as the rule states then you dont get the +1 assault bonus attack for counter attack as models assaulting models with defensive grenades do not get this bonus.