Can Fluff and Competition co-exist

[Exitus Acta Probat]

(Please read what follows this, but my next post actually clarifies the question a bit more, so read that TOO before posting...about 8 posts down.)


New thread, to get away from hi-jacking another one.

Though getting heated, some elements of play coming to a series of legitimate debate issues in the 'counts as' thread (with regards to Space Wolves).

The questions are,
Who is more vehement in their positions of right/wrong?


Are,Gamers who create/alter fluff doing so solely for game benefit
or
Do Players who adhere strictly to fluff and consider deviation detrimental or purely advantageous

and
Is either stance really innately better?

I really see both styles of fluff management as legitimate, and see the accusations of power-gaming vs accusations of preaching consistent, strong and powerful.
See if we can run this out without too much BLARGGGG! ranting (like I am guilty of, consistently).


I really and truly feel, that it is legitimate to alter/create fluff to fit your particular vision...and do not feel that this represents excessive competitive manipulation on my part.
I also feel that to refer to my play style as 'powergaming' is to restrict the accuser to a narrower than necessary play style.

[Dia]

I'd say fun should be the driving force behind the hobby, not just winning; however, I'm reminded that fun is subjective and for some people that means it is winning.

So I just don't know anymore.

Edit: Realized I hadn't directly addressed the topic. Yes, I think they can, should, and do co-exist.

[sicarius2424]

yeah they should coexists and both are right but if some one goes really over the top and says i have a horus becasue he came back to life because the warp willed it then they are taking it to far i think he should remain dead but yeah they should coexist

[Chumbalaya]

Sure they can, that's why we got into the game in the first place. I love fluff and I love armies that reflect the fluff and end up playing very well. Eldar, Guard, and now SW fit that mold extremely well.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

While these are all points that came up, and we gave our views on them, they are not what we were discussing. We were saying that altering the established, canon fluff past a certain point makes it non-cannon and therefore not fluffy. The rest was a great big blob of side-issues which we can argue about later, but the above is the central point that I and Vash were making, and I don't think you are seeing.

But since you have brought these up, let's take a quick look...

Gamers who alter the fluff simply to justify a switch to a more powerful codex are powergamers. We never said that altering the fluff and powergaming are mutually exclusive, just that some people feel the need to break the fluff as a justification (a needless one) for their powergaming.

We don't demand that people never create fluff, we simply appreciate it when that fluff works within the canon. This means that the fluff they create compliments and works with the established background instead of outright contradicting it. We respect your right to break the fluff, but think that if you do you should admit that you have and either change your fluff or leave it non-canon and be happy that way.

Obviously, powergaming is not innately 'better' than fungaming nor is canon fluff 'better' than non-canon fluff. It's up to each of us as an individual to choose what we value, I and Vash prefer fungaming and canon fluff while respecting your right to value the opposite.

[Vash113]

While these are all points that came up, and we gave our views on them, they are not what we were discussing. We were saying that altering the established, canon fluff past a certain point makes it non-cannon and therefore not fluffy. The rest was a great big blob of side-issues which we can argue about later, but the above is the central point that I and Vash were making, and I don't think you are seeing.

Quoted for truth.

Sadly EAP it looks like the majority of the subjects in your post have nothing to do with what was actually discussed so far in the DW/SW thread and are judgemental inferences made on your part. Neither Wingates or I actually said anything of that nature. Before you get upset, perhaps you should make sure there's something to be upset about.

[Emperorsmercy]

it is a fairly abstract post, to be fair...

However, on topic, fluff and gamers must go together for it to work, and I think it is fine to change/create fluff if it is justifiable.

[jeffersonian000]

I concur that fluff should work within the frame work of the setting rather than outside or it or even against the setting. However, who is to judge how far away from canon one can go before fluff stops being fluffy?

I run primarily Grey Knights (which has nothing to do with the DW/SW discussion), and in my fluff, the Grand Master of my army is on a quest and has a mandate to call in Imperial forces that he may need to fulfill his quest. This allows me to frankly abuse the allying rules in both Hunter 'Dexes for building some (in my mind) creative lists using the models I have available.

Am I being fluffy? Yes. Am I within canon? Yes. Am I having fun? Absolutely!

Then there is my old 2nd edition Legion of the Damned army. I enjoy running them as vanilla marines for a "counts as" Deathwatch Kill Team and will occacionally ally in Grey Knights and/or Sisters of Battle, because I can. Sometimes, I like to stat them up using the Black Templars codex for a Crusader based assault army. Upon occassion, I enjoy stat'ing them up as Blood Angles and running them as a fast(ish) assault army. I have even toyed with the notion of stat'ing them up using the Chaos Space Marine codex and running them as an ancient Legion lost in the Warp.

Am I being fluff? No. Am I within canon? Not really. Am I having fun? Absolutely!

The heart of the issue is not whether everyone should either play Space Wolves as Space Wolves or Ultramarines as Ultramarines or Dark Angels as Dark Angels; it’s whether or not you can force me to play Space Wolves as Space Wolves or Ultramarines as Ultramarines or Dark Angels as Dark Angels. Simply put, no one can force me to use my models in any manner I choose not to. If I choose to build my Deathwing using the Space Wolves codex, good for me. I found a neat way to do something cool in a newer way. Excellent!

Am I being fluff? Yes. Am I within canon? Yes. Am I having fun? Absolutely!

SJ

[Exitus Acta Probat]

Gamers who alter the fluff simply to justify a switch to a more powerful codex are powergamers. We never said that altering the fluff and powergaming are mutually exclusive, just that some people feel the need to break the fluff as a justification (a needless one) for their powergaming.

We don't demand that people never create fluff, we simply appreciate it when that fluff works within the canon. This means that the fluff they create compliments and works with the established background instead of outright contradicting it. We respect your right to break the fluff, but think that if you do you should admit that you have and either change your fluff or leave it non-canon and be happy that way.

Obviously, powergaming is not innately 'better' than fungaming nor is canon fluff 'better' than non-canon fluff. It's up to each of us as an individual to choose what we value, I and Vash prefer fungaming and canon fluff while respecting your right to value the opposite.

I guess then, I am asking if you feel that fluff manipulation is automatically anathema to non-powergaming?

Quoted for truth.

Sadly EAP it looks like the majority of the subjects in your post have nothing to do with what was actually discussed so far in the DW/SW thread and are judgemental inferences made on your part. .

actually, the whole point to this new thread.
there's baggage in the other one, and this lets us get away from that and see somehting...


there are design philosophies afoot...so to speak...that define us as players.
It is a social contract, when we get together to play.

I guess a cleaner question would have been (now that it has become more concrete in my mind)...

[B]which contract is considered more important to the overall gaming experience, and why?
Fluff
or
Compeitition[/B]

It's a game, so competition must be there in some form. It's also a universe, rich and diverse. Is it worse for your opponent (in the long run/overall) to violate the background for play, or violate play for background?

[Chumbalaya]

There really is no canon as far as I'm concerned. The fluff has changed so much over time that you can never keep it all straight.

I actually enjoy that. It gives people the freedom to do what they want with their army in their universe. There really isn't a "right" fluff, it's your fluff and you make it how you like.

The galaxy is a big place and stuff falls through the cracks in the Administratum all the time, so who's to say that what is true and what is false. Both can be true, both can be false. That's the grimdarkiest of all, that the reality you subscribe to may not even be the truth. And you can never really know.