From "counts as deathwing." to "counts as Wolf Guard,"

[Duke]

I have a screw-around list that is my own chapters 1st company, right now I use the "counts as Deathwing," stuff. I was wondering if anyone can forsee people going from "counts as Deathwing," to "Counts as Wolf Guard."

Obviously there are some benefits to doing this... But there could be some downsides too, discuss.


Duke

[Lerra]

I'm a Deathwing player who is tossing around the idea of using "counts as SW" for tournaments.

Pros:

* Logan Grimnar is a beast compared to Belial. Of course, you pay for that beastliness, and more HQ means fewer terminators in a list which is already low on model count.

* The models which support the terminators (tanks, shooty units, additional objective holders, etc.) are cheaper. There are new shiny tricks to play around with and more powerful options in general.

* Wolf Claws re-roll to hit or to wound.

* Counter-Assault is great for units which arrive via deepstrike and sit out in the open for a turn.

* The possibility to get two heavy weapons in one terminator squad.

* Terminators can get combi-weapons for cheap, and overall they have more options.

* Terminator squads of 3-10, compared to a min of 5 and a max of 5.

* Updated rules for Land Raiders, including the new Power of the Machine Spirit

Cons:

* Certain weapons combinations are more expensive (TH/SS). This is mitigated for a Deathwing player because the new Stormshield is much improved over our older version (which is only a 4+ and works only against CC wounds), and you can avoid the increased cost by running more terminators with power swords and fewer powerfists.

* You have to buy ($$$) a lot of drop pods. Also, at 35 points a pop, it brings the SW terminator squads to nearly the cost of Deathwing squads. Of course, you don't need to put the terminators in drop pods, either.

* You lose Ravenwing Bikes and their teleport homers.

* You are moving to a new codex, which will always involve a bit of a learning curve, and leaving behind a list that you (presumably) have a lot of experience with.

[Chumbalaya]

I'd trade homers for inertial guidance gladly. Not being stuck with Fearless is also extremely handy.

I'll try using the Wuffwing for a couple games and see which I prefer.

[Skitter Leap]

I didn't think that SW could teleport anyway.

[Chumbalaya]

They don't, but being guaranteed to come in turn 1 with no chance of getting destroyed by bad scatter and deployable terrain is infinitely superior though.

[Vash113]

Maybe it's just me but if I ran into a Deathwing player using the Wolf dex I'd refuse to play em on principle if nothing else. Stick to your own guns and be patient, we Wolves waited nearly a decade patiently and now everyone wants a piece of the action, lame, very lame.

As for DIY Chapters it depends on the character, but the SW rules are so non-codex that you really need a pretty significant justification for the wolfier rules or the army just looks kinda rediculous. The Ultramarines would probably have a hernia if they saw Terminators strapped in Drop Pods.

[DarkLink]

Frankly, I think it's kinda lame that you'd refuse to play a game because you didn't like a person's fluff justification for counts as rules, even though those rules are 100% legal. You wouldn't have a problem playing a Wolfwing list, why would you have a problem playing a dark green Wolfwing list. It is only different in name.
That said, you get to pick who you want to play, so if a name change does bother you that much, then you have every right to choose not to play.


Though I love the idea of all terminator armies (never been a fan of tactical marines when I could have terminators as troops), I didn't like the restrictions of the Deathwing rules. With strictly 5man squads, all with powerfists and sargents, I couldn't help but wish Chaos could have terminators as troops. Now, I can do that sort of list using 33pt terminators. You only need one or two powerfists per squad, with a thundershield or two and cyclone missile launcher for good measure.

[Chumbalaya]

I'd happily wait for a DA book that doesn't completely suck.

If it makes you feel any better Mr. high and mighty, it's a successor chapter called the Dark Wolves 1st Great Company: The Wolfwing

[crazyzombie]

I have couple counters for your pros

-Do the math re- rolling to hit is rarely better then re-rolling to wound and if rumors serve correctly wolf guard with wolf claws cost 48 points

-Most of the time terminators get shot when they deepstrike not assaulted.

- You may be right in that Logan Grimnar is a beast compared to Belia but your also right in that you are being forced to pay in extra 145 points in a chacter you may or may not want.

-So you get chaos like terminators. the loss of deep strike(Unless you don't mind paying an extra 35 points) and the fact you have to pay a lot more points better combat gear makes up for the the base cheapness of the unit

Just of couple of thoughts

[Vash113]

Frankly, I think it's kinda lame that you'd refuse to play a game because you didn't like a person's fluff justification for counts as rules, even though those rules are 100% legal. You wouldn't have a problem playing a Wolfwing list, why would you have a problem playing a dark green Wolfwing list. It is only different in name.
That said, you get to pick who you want to play, so if a name change does bother you that much, then you have every right to choose not to play.

More than just a lack of fluff justification it stinks of powergaming, just trying to use the latest and greatest rules without actually committing to building the army. Maybe you don't like that, but I respect people that stick to their guns and don't jump ship when the next new shiny codex comes out, and I don't have a whole lot of patience for those who want to find any justification to keep up with the power creep. I'm not saying everyone does that but it's what I see an awefull lot of and in my opinion it's neither fun or amusing.

I'd happily wait for a DA book that doesn't completely suck.

If it makes you feel any better Mr. high and mighty, it's a successor chapter called the Dark Wolves 1st Great Company: The Wolfwing

Call it high and mighty if ya want, but in reality you can't expect everyone to love or support a particular idea. As for a successor, I'm afraid that's an absolute no, there are no Space Wolves successors. The Wolf Brothers proved that SW gene-seed is untenable away from Fenris, as such there are no later successors in the SW fluff at all. Only a plethora of lost companies.