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  1. #1
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    Default Politics - To Our American Bretheren

    This is to the Yanks amongst our numbers, but also as a general point

    Everyone knows what the stereotype of an American is. Fat and Retarded. Now I know that most if not all of you on here do not fit into this category. And i'm sure you don't like having that stereotype applied against you

    But my question is if you don't want this stereotype why in gods name do you let Republicans open their mouths and what in the name of all that is holy makes people vote for them?

    This question comes up today after two news stories. The first [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17104543"](here)[/URL] shows one of the front runners for presidential candidate declaring global warming to effectivly be a myth invented for political reasons, that you should spend more money on coal and build more pipelines across America. Pipelines Obama has cancelled because of their ecological impact

    The 2nd story comes from a Newpaper (so no link) that when running for Vice President gun-nut and all round idiot Sarah Palin knew absolutly nothing about foreign policy or the world around her, thinking Latino people were decended from Native Americans, that the Queen ran the UK and that Saddam has ordered 9/11.

    In a recent (2007) survey only 23% of the Republican Party believed in Global Warming, 30% in evolution, yet 94% in the Immaculate Conception.

    So my question is this...how do you function as a country when half your political system belive that religion has a place in politics, thats guns are good, free health care and equal rights for gay people are bad and the entire system is being funded by lobbyists (Lobbyists for the health care industry spent $1.4 million a day to defeat Obamas reforms)?

    I just don't get how people like this can still be put in power in the modern world, least of all in charge of one of the most powerful nations on earth
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    Idk how accurate this is, but our lass said one of her american friends told her the welfare reform felt like a pay cut to people who had negotiated healthcare packages as part of their pay deals, and this was essentially why lots of people were against it...

    However the process of robo-insemination is far too complex for the human mind!
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  3. #3

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    Well 'climate change/global warming' is an incredibly complex issue that is far, far more problematic that both ideological sides want people to believe. Which is the problem when scientific issues become morale and political issues, they become subject to ideological dictates.

    As to the rest of it, the problem largely rests with the fact that authority and legitimacy is entirely in the hands of a noisome popularity contest. When this occurs the easiest way to get votes is the most effective, ergo whipping the populace into a frenzy of nationalism/fear/indignation etc. becomes a surefire way of increasing turnout. So utilising ideology (whether it be evangelical or 'liberal') is a good way of tapping into that bit of our brain which says 'turn into a frothing at the mouth nutjob', making the individual more likely to vote and more likely to view the opposition as 'the Enemy' rather than people with an opposing viewpoint. This is the single most dangerous thing to proper democracy in my opinion, the tendency for people to treat it like a game of football with 'sides' you support no matter what. Swinging voters may be notoriously stupid but they also have the right idea.

    This is a common problem with republics, I could make a rather convincing argument as to why constitutional monarchies avoid this but I don't want to get into a republic vs monarchy debate. It does happen here too, of course, but generally it is sparked by the media rather than politicians and tends to burn itself out quickly as we lack that hardcore, puritan good vs evil world view. Which infects both the right and left in America.
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  4. #4

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    Honestly, as an American, this article scares the hell out of me more than any of the links posted previously;

    [url]http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-05/opinion/opinion_obeidallah-santorum-sharia_1_rick-santorum-santorum-two-santorum-one?_s=PM:OPINION[/url]

    I wouldn't say that the stereotypical American is, "fat and retarded". I'd say it falls more along the line of "fat and ignorant". Ignorant and mentally disabled are two very different states of being. One implies helplessness, the other does not. I haven't decided which is the better of the two honestly.

    So I'll handle Sarah Palin first. She's a nutjob. 95% of America thinks she is a nutjob, even the Republicans out there. In my office of 250ish people, there is likely a single person who thinks she could ever handle a job above short-order cook. My apologies to short-order cooks, I personally don't even think she could handle that. In the presidential election of 2008, people voted for McCain... not Palin. The position of Vice-President is *almost* that of a figurehead.

    As for the story about Republicans and climate change, evolution, immaculate conception - welcome to having a political party that is dominated by religion. I don't agree with Republicans on any of the subjects, but in the U.S., they can believe the world is made of fruit and cheese and as long as they get the requisite votes in the major elections they can be a political party.

    As for religion in politics- it wasn't always this way. The Red Scare screwed this country up something fierce. In order to separate ourselves from the Soviets in the 1950's and 60's, the U.S. began introducing more and more religion into politics since it differentiated "us" from "them". It's NOT supposed to be this way despite what one side may say. Relgion did not used to be stamped over everything. Our coins didn't say "In God We Trust" until the early 20th century and the phrase "under God" was only added to our Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950s (with the original pledge written 60ish years earlier and only adopted during WWII as a way of instituting Nationalism). This methodology of including religion to stave-off the Soviets is what lead to today's problem with our congress spending most of its time trying to legislate social issues, something with which Congress was not founded to do (that's up to States, who must operate within the boundaries of the U.S. constitution).

    As Eldargal mentioned, all of the scientific issues mentioned are horribly complex. I agree more with the scientific community on both issues. I studied climate while doing undergrad research years ago (amongst other things) and it really is a horribly complex idea.

    I should also point out that while half of our political institutions have a religious bent, that does not reflect the actual landscape of the U.S. During 2008, only 60% of the voting population chose to even visit the polls. Doing some simple math, that's roughly 130ish million people. That leaves another 100 million people who didn't even cast a ballot and those are just the people eligible and registered to vote. In non-presidential elections we are usually lucky to break 40% voter turnout nationwide. Then, in our primary elections where the candidates are actually selected we have voter turnout around 15-20%. So people will turn out for the popularity contest between two people other people selected for them but not to actually vote and thin the crazy out of the field. That is the number 1 problem with our political system, apathetic voters who are so disenfranchised with the system that they don't even bother to be a part of it (of course this doesn't stop them from whining about it 2 years later).

    Point of fact, only 55 million people are registered Republicans. There are 72 million registered democrats. This means roughly 100 million people fall somewhere between the parties or just don't care enough to register as one or the other. 55 million people is only 1/6th of our total population (roughly, actual percentage is around 17%).
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  5. #5

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    Well I'm half American and I am a large mammal who could be considered thick by most of the college educated know it alls on this forum, I also love guns and find Ms. Pallin mildly amusing........... So I guess its all my fault.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronowraith View Post
    As for religion in politics- it wasn't always this way. The Red Scare screwed this country up something fierce. In order to separate ourselves from the Soviets in the 1950's and 60's, the U.S. began introducing more and more religion into politics since it differentiated "us" from "them". It's NOT supposed to be this way despite what one side may say.
    [URL="http://youtu.be/kJGxVeQw3SE"]Penn Jillette has an interesting take on the subject of the rise of mentioning religion in politic[/URL]s.

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    @ Chronowraith - That article is actually a little scary. Although I'm sure an America with a ban on all porn would result in a civil uprising within a month.

    I was in the middle of the protests in Washington a few years back about Obama's health care bill. I have never been quite so scared in my life. The mentality of the people there was shocking

    @ Eldargal - You say its people who take side in politics and never swing that are the problem. But its a fact. I've been a Labour man all my life. 1 grandparent was a party member and a judge. Another worked in mines, then a public gardener. Both my 'rents work for the NHS. I'm Labour through and through. I support them not because I was born that way, but because they're policies are right. And in my eyes have always been right. I can see the point of view on the other side, but I don't shift because the opposite side's policies are from their point of view, not mine.

    And of course its all Aldramech's fault! it all makes sense now :P

    I'd like to apoligise if i i advertantly insulted any Americans in this...didn't mean it in any way like that.
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    I haven't really got a political party i agree with some policies from all and disagree with some policies. But some american politics are crazy, but then some of the english political parties are disgraces eg the BNP.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    This is to the Yanks amongst our numbers, but also as a general point
    Any post starting with someone pointing fingers, particularly at any given nationality/ethnic group, is going to go downhill quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    Everyone knows what the stereotype of an American is. Fat and Retarded. Now I know that most if not all of you on here do not fit into this category. And i'm sure you don't like having that stereotype applied against you
    And the equivalent stereotype for british people is the elitist, arrogant prick, but I'm sure that's not particularly accurate either. You should read this: [url]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Eagleland[/url]

    I also like you you capitalized retarded, as if it's a medical condition Americans suffer from or something. If you're going to resort to ad homenin attacks based on sweeping generalizations and stereotypes, then this thread isn't going to last long.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    But my question is if you don't want this stereotype why in gods name do you let Republicans open their mouths and what in the name of all that is holy makes people vote for them?
    Really? This is where you're going to try and take this? Bashing people over politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    that you should spend more money on coal and build more pipelines across Americ Pipelines Obama has cancelled because of their ecological impact
    Actually, the Obama's move on pipelines was a stupid one from an ecological standpoint. There are generally two ways to move oil, pipelines and ships. Pipelines break less frequently and have a comparatively insignificant impact on the environment even when they do break. If a ship crashes, though, hundreds of miles of coastline will be impacted and requires a major cleanup that is both expensive and extremely environmentally damaging. Pipelines are, environmentally, a very clean and safe way to transport oil. Shipping, not so much.

    And you'd better believe that if the US doesn't buy Canada's oil, Canada will just ship it to China. This isn't a choice between pumping oil or not pumping oil, it's a choice between a pipeline or shipping it to China. Since shipping it has much bigger environmental risks, the pipelines to America are the cleaner choice.

    The reason Obama cancelled the pipeline is pure politics. He needs the green groups for the next election, and they're just as ignorant as you seem to be. He tried to delay the program so he could get the environmental vote, then approve the program after the election, but the Republicans forced his hand on the issue and he decided that votes were more important than the environmental impact.

    So next time, do a bit of research before you start bashing people over stuff like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    The 2nd story comes from a Newpaper (so no link) that when running for Vice President gun-nut and all round idiot Sarah Palin knew absolutly nothing about foreign policy or the world around her, thinking Latino people were decended from Native Americans, that the Queen ran the UK and that Saddam has ordered 9/11.
    Yeah... I've never understood why some of the conservative candidates and voters get so worked up over certain things like that. I won't deny there's a lot of stupid people out there, and people who pander to those stupid people for votes. I facepalm whenever I hear someone supporting the idea of building a three thousand mile wall to block off mexico.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    In a recent (2007) survey only 23% of the Republican Party believed in Global Warming, 30% in evolution, yet 94% in the Immaculate Conception.
    Global warming, as it sounds like you see it, is pretty much bunk. There are some significant environmental impacts around the world, but a broad increase in temperature caused by human carbon emissions probably isn't one of them. The same group that initially proposed global warming was also shown to have manipulated their data when presenting it to the public for political reasons (that whole climategate thing), and recently admitted that there is little data to support the idea that worldwide temperature averages have actually risen over the last couple of decades.

    Yes, there are some big environmental issues out there right now, but most of the big global warming stuff is a big political swindle.


    As for immaculate conception, it is actually theoretically possible. It's been observed in some animal species. I don't know if it's been scientifically observed in humans, but just keep that in mind. And also, don't be a douchebag just because someone doesn't share your religious beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    So my question is this...how do you function as a country when half your political system belive that religion has a place in politics
    Dunno, we seem to be doing as well as the rest of western democracy. Which is to say, our problems are primarily economic rather than political or religious. Everywhere you go you get biased, opinionated idiots voting based on logical fallacies and catchy slogans rather than solid research and information. It's not an American thing, it's a human thing. You're asking a loaded question, one which I could turn around on you quite easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    thats guns are good
    Wait, you think they're bad? Why? I'd love to hear whatever bull**** argument you'd try to come up with.

    And since I'm sure you'll bring up murderers and whatnot, murder is a cultural thing. You should be much more concerned about how acceptable people find violence outside of self defense to be as opposed to what means they use to inflict harm on others. You could write whole books on stuff like that. You could walk from one socio-economic ethnic group to the next and have extremely different crime rates, simply because of their economic status and cultural baggage they carry around. Look up Culture of Honor for starters, if you want to know why murder rates are so high in, say, the Los Angeles ghettos. It's not because guns somehow magically turn people into killers. It's because you get a culture where personal honor must be defended at all cost, and tolerance of disrespect is unacceptable. Escalation of violence naturally follows that, regardless of the presence of weapons.



    A bit of food for though, gun ownership in America is actually on the rise. There have been pretty significant increases in gun sales and the percentage of households with firearms. Over the last few decades, Concealed Carry Permits have become much more widespread, and now almost all of the 50 states will hand out a permit to anyone with a clean record (called a Shall-Issue permit). Only a few states are still May-Issue.

    And guess what? Gun related crimes, as well as violent crimes in general, are on the decline.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    free health care and equal rights for gay people are bad and the entire system is being funded by lobbyists (Lobbyists for the health care industry spent $1.4 million a day to defeat Obamas reforms)?
    You live in england and think that government run health care is a good thing? That's the first time I've heard that before.

    The stance of most conservatives is not that universal healthcare is a bad thing. The issue is that is is considered an impracticable thing. In particular, putting it under government control is seen as a bad thing. For precisely the reasons of stupidity and political manipulation that you point out, government programs tend to be more expensive and less efficient than competitive private counterparts. So conservatives tend to be against any big government programs, regardless of what they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    I just don't get how people like this can still be put in power in the modern world, least of all in charge of one of the most powerful nations on earth
    Yeah, I can see how you don't get it, since you didn't seem to do your homework on a lot of the things you brought up.

    Look, people in general are pretty ill informed. We're all opinionated, and it's pretty well established that human beings are not actually very rational at all.

    Attacking large groups over their political or religious beliefs with massively sweeping generalizations is not a good way to start a discussion about anything. All it does is kick off the downward spiral of irrationality and dick moves.
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  10. #10

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    Well that there is a bias, hence my point. It would be difficult for you to admit Labour policies were bad if they were or that some Tory policies may be good, or at least, necessary. Personally I do what my family have always done, take an interest, maintain an informed opinion on each party but don't fall into the trap of partisanship.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    @ Eldargal - You say its people who take side in politics and never swing that are the problem. But its a fact. I've been a Labour man all my life. 1 grandparent was a party member and a judge. Another worked in mines, then a public gardener. Both my 'rents work for the NHS. I'm Labour through and through. I support them not because I was born that way, but because they're policies are right. And in my eyes have always been right. I can see the point of view on the other side, but I don't shift because the opposite side's policies are from their point of view, not mine.

    Replace 'prick' with b*tch and it would be accurate in my case. But I don't think DrLove intended to cause offense.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLink
    And the equivalent stereotype for british people is the elitist, arrogant prick, but I'm sure that's not particularly accurate either.
    To be fair, it is republicans that tend to come out with the worst one-liners which grab the headliners. One of them recently claimed the Dutch murder all their old people, for example.
    Really? This is where you're going to try and take this? Bashing people over politics?
    Yep, pipelines = good.
    Actually, the Obama's move on pipelines was a stupid one from an ecological standpoint. There are generally two ways to move oil, pipelines and ships. Pipelines break less frequently and have a comparatively insignificant impact on the environment even when they do break. If a ship crashes, though, hundreds of miles of coastline will be impacted and requires a major cleanup that is both expensive and extremely environmentally damaging. Pipelines are, environmentally, a very clean and safe way to transport oil. Shipping, not so much.

    And you'd better believe that if the US doesn't buy Canada's oil, Canada will just ship it to China. This isn't a choice between pumping oil or not pumping oil, it's a choice between a pipeline or shipping it to China. Since shipping it has much bigger environmental risks, the pipelines to America are the cleaner choice.

    The reason Obama cancelled the pipeline is pure politics. He needs the green groups for the next election, and they're just as ignorant as you seem to be. He tried to delay the program so he could get the environmental vote, then approve the program after the election, but the Republicans forced his hand on the issue and he decided that votes were more important than the environmental impact.

    So next time, do a bit of research before you start bashing people over stuff like this.
    Easy, see my first post, it makes for a highly motivated core of voters to go out and scare more people. The wall idea is one of my favourites too, it wasn't effective two thousand years ago it isn't going to be effective now.
    Yeah... I've never understood why some of the conservative candidates and voters get so worked up over certain things like that. I won't deny there's a lot of stupid people out there, and people who pander to those stupid people for votes. I facepalm whenever I hear someone supporting the idea of building a three thousand mile wall to block off mexico.
    From an archaeological perpsective it certainly is bollocks. Many of the techniques used for mapping climate and temperature in the past were pioneered to assist archaeology. For most of the past ten thousand years or so since the end of the last ice age it has been two or more degrees centigrade higher than it is now. Ignoring issues with data collection, statistical bias and poor computer modelling if the world is warming it is probably natural and simply returning to its usual interglacial temperature point. Humans are having an impact, but not through C02, but through deforestation and land clearance (destroying shade cover over vast areas does raise the ground temperature as well as cause erosion which along coastal areas gives the impression of sea level rise). To quote a childhood friend of my fathers in the Royal Society 'it is nonsense, but nonsense you have to agree with if you want funding and the peace and quiet to pursue research without ideologues bashing down your door'.
    Global warming, as it sounds like you see it, is pretty much bunk. There are some significant environmental impacts around the world, but a broad increase in temperature caused by human carbon emissions probably isn't one of them. The same group that initially proposed global warming was also shown to have manipulated their data when presenting it to the public for political reasons (that whole climategate thing), and recently admitted that there is little data to support the idea that worldwide temperature averages have actually risen over the last couple of decades.

    Yes, there are some big environmental issues out there right now, but most of the big global warming stuff is a big political swindle.


    As for immaculate conception, it is actually theoretically possible. It's been observed in some animal species. I don't know if it's been scientifically observed in humans, but just keep that in mind. And also, don't be a douchebag just because someone doesn't share your religious beliefs.
    Sadly yes, but the potential for much more damage is in the US. If the evangelists get more power over education you could see a real drop in the quality of your education which would be devestating. Knowledge where it at yo.
    Dunno, we seem to be doing as well as the rest of western democracy. Which is to say, our problems are primarily economic rather than political or religious. Everywhere you go you get biased, opinionated idiots voting based on logical fallacies and catchy slogans rather than solid research and information. It's not an American thing, it's a human thing. You're asking a loaded question, one which I could turn around on you quite easily.
    The NHS isn't bad, really. Most of the horror stories are completely overblown, it isn't as good as some of the European systems but it is good.
    You live in england and think that government run health care is a good thing? That's the first time I've heard that before.

    The stance of most conservatives is not that universal healthcare is a bad thing. The issue is that is is considered an impracticable thing. In particular, putting it under government control is seen as a bad thing. For precisely the reasons of stupidity and political manipulation that you point out, government programs tend to be more expensive and less efficient than competitive private counterparts. So conservatives tend to be against any big government programs, regardless of what they are.

    The thing that bothers me most about the 'big vs small' guvmint thing in America (I'm very much in favour of small guvmints) is that so many people who claim to want small government are in favour of the death penalty. The LAST power I want to give any government is the that of life and death over the populace, even with an independent judiciary.

    Chronowraith, that article illustrates something that I've always found very ironic. The theocratic government of Iran and the extreme wing of the Republican party really would get along swimmingly.

    Ooh, past my bedtime.
    Last edited by eldargal; 02-21-2012 at 06:38 PM.
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