Vanguard v.s. Assault Terms

[Inquisitor Soren]

Alright guys I got a question/poll to test the, seemingly, infinite internet wisdom...lol

This came up in a discussion between my brother and myself, and I have to admit I feel Vanguard are better...

Which is better, present your arguments, I don't care about 'they both suck', or 'that is fail' I want a reasonable tactical discussion.

Here is my pros/cons list...

Pros: 2+ Armor (Overwhelm-able), Lightning Claws w/5+ Invul or TH/SS, Deepstrike, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, Land Raider possible Dedicated Transport.

Cons: Slow, Expensive Transport, Deep Strike Situational due to lack of ranged weapons, Fire Magnet.

-

Pros: 3+ Armor, Diverse Weapon Options (Including SS), Cheap Transport Options, Jump Pack Option (Giving them the Deepstrike option, increased movement, and the possibility of Heroic Intervention), Combat Squads, Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, Heroic Intervention.

Cons: 3+ Armor can be flimsy with Battle Cannons abounding, Expensive when kitted, Deep Strike decent depending on luck and situation due to Heroic Intervention but cannot be counted upon, Possible Fire Magnet, Cheap Transports are flimsy, can suffer from lack of ranged weapons.

One last thing, for the life of me I can't remember but I'm 99% sure that units with jump-packs are unable to ride in transports, but can someone quote this for posterity. Thanks

My personal view is that depending on what effect I would want on the enemy chooses which one I would take. Assault Terms are good for both psychological effect and fire magnet-ing, with the rare actual contact with the enemy. While Vanguard tend to be underestimated can be used to devastating combat effect on an unaware foe or simply an unlucky or incautious foe.

Let us also leave Shrike out of this...for now...

[Chumbalaya]

Vanguard are fail. Super expensive models that rely on Deep Striking without scatter and having an opponent within 6" and die just like normal marines? You've got to be kidding me. TH/SS Termies any day.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Unfortunately there isn't even remotely a contest thanks to the presence of the 3+ invulnerable save stock option and the insanely good cost.

These two units, sadly, don't even remotely compare.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

Even with the need for a 250pt tansport,
the THSS (or mixed if you wanna be a little silly) termies are instant win in comparison.

Vanguard Vets require too much luck to ever pay for themselves...and then die.

OR

give up their special intervention rule in order to mount up into a transport, go kill something...and then die.

It really is just no comparison.
I like vanguard conceptually, and use them for s##ts and giggles, but they are CRAP from a competitive perspective.

(oh, and if you invest the points to make the vanguard useful, you will pay close to the cost of a THSS squad in a Land Raider...and the movement rate of the LR termies with assault is 12+2+base width+6...whereas the Vanguard not deepstriking is 12+6, and the Vanguard Deepstriking is only going to net you 33% hits, everything else = dead or mishap)

[Axel]

"Better" is very subjective... Do you mean better to look at? Better to model and/or paint? Better against Grots? Better at beating in the engine housing on a Leman Russ? Better at surviving a shark attack?

I'm going to throw my wait behind Vanguard too. Unlike the frequently viewpoints I see, better in 40k for me does not translate purely into "points efficient".

[Timbo]

You should wait to throw your weight behind the Vanguard. 25 point marines with no special issue ammunition are gawd awful.

[Yvraith]

I'm not too sure which way I want to lean yet as I haven't used Vanguard vets.

However after putting together a list today,
I think there is a way for Deep Striking Units (all not just Teleporting ones) to land accurately every time.

Read up on Locator Beacons which can be fitted to Scout bikers and Drop Pods (+10 pts).

The way I read it they allow all Deep Striking Units to land without scattering just like a Teleport Homer does with a 6" range.

So Land your Drop Pod, in the desired location on turn one, and Deep Strike your Vanguard Vets in accurately when they arrive from reserve.

[Johan]

Vanguard are good. I use them myself. But looking at it from a gaming standpoint what vanguard can do for their cost, assault terminators can do better for less points.

[Drax]

I'm sorry but by far assualt termies are better I have personally thrown vulkan and a squad of 5 termies into a squad of death company and 2 squads of 5 assualt blood angels and killed 5 death company and wiped out the assualt squads. The sheer staying power of th ss termies make up for there price. Who needs cover when u have a 3 + invul save

[Duke]

Well, I voted for Assault Termies, but...

Storm Shields: Wash, both units can take them.
Thunderhammers/ Lightning claws : Wash, both units can take them.
Armour save: Termies
Natural Invuln: Termies
Manouver: Vanguard
Transport options: I don't recall if Vanguard can remove their jumpacks, if they can then its a wash
Pure Cost per unit: Vanguard
Upgraded cost per unit: Termies
Percieved heat: Termies
Actual heat: Wash
Element of Suprise: Vanguard


so based on these criteria (hopefully I don't forget something) then it ends up being:
Termies: 4 advantages
Vanguard: 3 advantages

(Obviously all this is arguable, but it is my 2 cents.)

Duke