Valkyrie Squads and coherency

[thecactusman17]

If the wings were considered part of the hull that might help a bit, but then a squadron would take up even that much more room. I could not imagine 9 of these on the board even so.

Now you are starting to sound strange. Do you model valks without wings? Why? What would be the purpose? It's a freaking plane by design!

If you have modeled them otherwise, that is your model but it doesn't change that the wings are a critical part of the model, where players may draw line of sight from and to for purposes of targeting. Who wouldn't want to blow the wing off an aircraft to knock it out of the sky, after all?

In short, your argument is that on an airplane, the wing isn't a part of the basic, fundamental element of the structure of the vehicle. I refuse to accept that. I think that any logically thinking person would also refuse to accept that. Wings are, and have always been, a basic part of the hull of Valkyries, and Stormravens, and DE jets, and Eldar hover tanks, and whatever else have you. If they aren't modeled on yours, then i hope you have done something creative to replace them.

[AngelsofDeath]

Now you are starting to sound strange. Do you model valks without wings? Why? What would be the purpose? It's a freaking plane by design!

If you have modeled them otherwise, that is your model but it doesn't change that the wings are a critical part of the model, where players may draw line of sight from and to for purposes of targeting. Who wouldn't want to blow the wing off an aircraft to knock it out of the sky, after all?

In short, your argument is that on an airplane, the wing isn't a part of the basic, fundamental element of the structure of the vehicle. I refuse to accept that. I think that any logically thinking person would also refuse to accept that. Wings are, and have always been, a basic part of the hull of Valkyries, and Stormravens, and DE jets, and Eldar hover tanks, and whatever else have you. If they aren't modeled on yours, then i hope you have done something creative to replace them.

Sounds kinda like your lookin for an argument when there really isnt one. The basis of this is the point of the Valks being very big squadrons of transports trying to maintain unit coherency (4in). Also pointing out that either way from the wing tip to wing tip or tail boom to front cockpit these models are big and may have some difficulty fielding in large numbers on a 4ftx6ft standard battlefield.

No argument......Nothing mentioned about altered models or Valks without wings....Nothing mentioned about being strange.....No argument......

[thecactusman17]

Apologies, I thought you were still arguing that wings weren't part of the hull. Sorry if I offended.

[Tynskel]

I disagree that the wings are apart of the hull, because you open all sorts of cans of worms. The wings in most cases, are superficial and have no functionality in the game.

What's the side of the wing? How do you measure the front and rear of the wing, vs the fuselage?

The Fuselage is more consistent with Hull than the wings are. The Hull is the body or frame. The fuselage is the same thing, it is the body or frame.

[AngelsofDeath]

This is opening a whole can of worms....sorry I brought up the question of can the Valks split up since they are transports/squadrons in the first place.

I dont know if there is a FAQ about the wings and what they count as, but C'mon man if the wings do not count and they carry weapons then the tailboom for sure does not count as part of the hull either then.

My main point was the coherency and I guess where is it measured from. If you try to go from the oval base there is almost no possible way to keep a squad of three in coherency. If you go from any point on one model (wing, tailboom, nose-cone) to another model then it makes it alot easier.

But since we are here, how do people play the model? If I play a person I give them the 12/12/10 front/side/rear as per the armour value when shooting at it, even if its the wing or the tailboom that I can see, and give it the correct cover save for the % of the model in cover if that is the case. And as far as assualt it is to the oval base.

[Nabterayl]

What's the side of the wing? How do you measure the front and rear of the wing, vs the fuselage?

I don't think this is a wing-specific question. You determine armor facings for the vehicle, not for its individual parts. Yes, you have to decide where the corners of the vehicle are, but you always have to decide where the corners of the vehicle are. I don't think making the wings part of the "hull" makes that exercise any more or less difficult, personally.

EDIT: as for how I play Valks, I draw each diagonal from the corner of the tail boom to the opposite corner of the troop compartment, and treat both the wings and the tail boom as "hull or turret." For purposes of embarking, disembarking, and assault, I play by the FAQ.

[thecactusman17]

I disagree that the wings are apart of the hull, because you open all sorts of cans of worms. The wings in most cases, are superficial and have no functionality in the game.

What's the side of the wing? How do you measure the front and rear of the wing, vs the fuselage?

The Fuselage is more consistent with Hull than the wings are. The Hull is the body or frame. The fuselage is the same thing, it is the body or frame.

And without wings, that body or frame doesn't do jack. Nor does it have space for its underslung weapon mounts, including Lascannons and missiles.

[Nabterayl]

If you're going to treat "hull" as meaning "body or frame," I think you should be looking at the aircraft's airframe, not its fuselage. An aircraft's airframe is closer to its "body or frame" than is its fuselage, and the airframe includes the wings.

[Tynskel]

Sure you could do that, but the hull is the compartment for cargo and troops, the fuselage is the compartment for cargo and troops.

As for weapon mountings, many weapons are not on the hull, they are mounted on the exterior of the hull. Plus you do not target weapons as being the hull, you target the actual hull. Ex: lascannon sponson on a predator. If you are facing the front of the tank, and the only thing you can see is the lascannon, you cannot shoot the tank because you have no target of the hull.


Nab, you didn't list what facing is the wing? Even turrets have clear facing, this is just an extention vertically on a 2d surface. Wings come out of the side of the vehicle, and go way beyond the fuselage. So, do I get a 3+ or 2+ cover save if you can clearly see the wing, but you are in the aft viewpoint? Or does the wing become armor 10?

[RealGenius]

Just for reference's sake, here's what the INAT FAQ has to say on the Val-detta. I don't think they are wholly correct, but the clarifications listed below probably allow for the quickest and easiest game play.

IG.56A.01 – Q: What exactly is considered part of the „hull‟ on a Valkyrie/Vendetta model?

A: Any part of the model, besides its weapons, landing gear and nose-mounted sensors is considered part of the hull [clarification]. Ref: BA.38A.02, DE.46A.02

IG.56A.02 – Q: What part of a Valkyrie/Vendetta model needs to be in or on terrain in order for it to count as being in or on the terrain piece?

A: While the Valkyrie/Vendetta is on its base, only if the base is actually in or on the terrain would the model count as being in or on the terrain (unless both players agree otherwise) [clarification].
Ref: BA.38A.03, DE.46A.03

IG.56A.03 – Q: Can a Valkyrie/Vendetta model end its movement over friendly or enemy models and can other models end their move underneath it?

A: As long as a Valkyrie/Vendetta doesn‟t end its move with its base on top of any model or within 1” of any enemies, it is fine to have portions of the Valkyrie/Vendetta model end up over other models, provided they physically fit underneath the Valkyrie/Vendetta model [clarification]. Ref: BA.38A.04, DE.46A.04

IG.56A.05 – Q: Can a Valkryie/Vendetta end its movement with part of the model hanging off the table as long as its base is fully on the table?

A: No, a Valkryie/Vendetta must end its movement with the entire model over the table [clarification]. Note that this means it may have to move faster than „combat speed‟ when moving onto the table from Reserves.
Ref: BA.38A.05, DE.46A.05